>However, the importance of Warhammer 40K goes beyond its more obvious characteristics as a dystopic version of Lord of the Rings set in outer space. One also needs to consider the appeal that Warhammer 40K has with regards to its overall aesthetics, its values and the worldview that it represents. Warhammer takes the values usually associated with science fiction (e.g. technological progress, material progress, social progress, interstellar cooperation, and interspecies sex) and inverts them in the most painful and ridiculous ways possible. My purpose here is to analyze this inversion as well as the overall appeal of the entire franchise.
http://alternative-right.blogspot.com/2014/02/into-grim-darkness.html
Is he right?
>>48011314
Alright OP, you better post the entire thing here, 'cause I'm certainly giving this guy no clics.
That said, 40k has nothing in common with LotR.
But yeah, it was a political and historical satire alongside an inversion of space opera.
The initial creative team had more than a couple doctorates between them, and it shows, even it the setting wasn't made too seriously.
In the very first place, Rogue Trader was made to sell the existing range of citadel miniatures.
>>48011423
Better?
(1/2)
(2/2)
>>48011669
>Siryako Akda
About to read the rest of it, but can someone point to me what culture produced that name?
>>48011687
Well, he's not wrong. But he's not right either.
>>48011762
Not sure about the origin of the name, but this may shed some light:
>Siryako Akda is Filipino graduate of political science
>>48011669
>>48011687
>>48011762
Read it.
It's...alright? I think it's a bit too summarizing for a franchise spanning nearly two to three decades that piles on derivative after derivative. I don't think you could say why 40k succeeded without going by a step by step/edition by edition look at how it morphed.
>>48011843
You're a gem, anon.
>>48011314
>dystopic version of Lord of the Rings set in outer space
Absolutely wrong
>>48011971
No.
It's accurate.
Abaddon is Sauron. The Eye of Terror is Mordor.
Eldrad is Gandalf.
>>48012016
Also, Space Orks are Tolkien Orks.
>>48011669
>>48011687
There is a lot of flaws and shortcuts but it's actually not that bad.
It's even pretty interesting, even if it could be expanded by 400 pages and still be uncomplete.
>>48011853
>it's a bit too summarizing for a franchise spanning nearly two to three decades that piles on derivative after derivative
The same can be said of many things, and yet we need synthesises, overviews, and 'big picture' analyses. etc
>>48012058
>There is a lot of flaws and shortcuts but it's actually not that bad.
OP here.
I agree.
>>48012016
But anon, Sauron nearly won if ti weren't for Gollum.
Honestly the ideas presented in it aren't bad or wrong and are even fun to think and ponder on. Gives me a new way to consider the universe which is always cool.
For some reason though I feel like if this was coming from an in person conversation I would very much want to punch this guy in the face. Not because I disagree but because he just has a punchable face.
>>48011687
It's ok.
I disagree with him on some minor points, but his reasoning is solid enough.
Nonetheless, I think he eludes one big aspect: The Imperium is one byzantine clusterfuck by need, because otherwise the fragile balance of power will be tipped and it's gonna be another awful civil war like the Horus Heresy or the Reign of Blood.
It's not kill or be killed, it's kill AND be killed. Even if you succeeded in repelling your foes, your own side would stab you in the back, just in case (and that's without the traitors and other cultists)
It's not liberating. In the end your achievments will be destroyed by the very people you've tried to protect.
So it's fun as an over the top game or as a change from the rest of anglo cultural imperialism; but as criticism/escapism from modern values? There isn't enough of an alternative proposed in the setting for that IMO.
>>48012016
You can link any two settings with this kind of shallow comparison.
>>48011669
Judge Dredd is satire
>>48012833
Seriously; its 100% punk era FIGHT THE MAN nonsense.
>>48012180
And Abaddon is going to win, the Emperor himself has foreseen it.
Gollum is the captured Grey Knight from Pandorax.
>>48011423
>>48011971
>>48012016
>40k is not LoTR in speeehs
I'm pretty sure he means that it's a fuckhueg "fantasy" setting set in space and LoTR is the most well know.
The dude obviously has more than just basic knowledge of 40k, if it was meant as a literal comparison he'd explain it imo.
>>48012180
And Abbadon has had victories slip from his fingers before. Your point?
>>48012979
Just because he may have meant it in the loosest possible form of comparison doesn't make the statement any less retarded.
Well he does what he claims he'll do and he does it pretty well. Nothing really spectacular though, it's basically "40k is fucked up and as such it has different morals and ideals, which is almost the exact opposite of most other scifi settings - but it's not all 100% edgy and evil" but using fancy words.
He also knows his shit, so that's leagues better than any leftist blog post about 40k and how it's problematic. Kudos for acknowledging that it's not only the Imperium, but also every other faction, that has fallen from greatness. Some people seem to forget that for some reason. Al tough he's a faggot for linking to 1dchan for further explanation.
>>48011314
No. He hasn't read Dune. Or Asimov. If he had, he'd know that 40k isn't an inversion to science fiction, but rather a copy-paste of some of the founding science fiction works, that then had the serial numbers filed off.
>>48012180
Gollum = tau can't you see the family resembance? ?!?@?!
>>48012833
Satire can transcend satirism bro
>>48012979
It still a horrible comparison, 40k is more closer to Dune with mid 80s aesthetics.
>Not recognizing 40k as satirical cautionary tale
>Trying to extrapolate some right wing maxim from a subversive parody of right wing values taken to their logical extreme
Way to miss the fucking point
>>48013276
wtf does that even mean, you pretentious duchebag?
>>48011314
The author makes the mistake of comparing a setting designed to encourage play in a tabletop game to settings designed for serialized TV episodes or movies (Star Trek/Wars). He seems to assume that the way the setting is built is independent of the needs of the game.
The game needs a bunch of factions to fight (otherwise why are you painting minis?). Having everyone get along would mean they don't fight.
He also makes the mistake of confusing political viewpoints with cultural viewpoints. 40k is heavily influenced by the media culture that was consumed by its mainly British creators, so it should come as no surprise that it lacks themes common in American media. As much as we joke about American cultural dominance, the UK actually still has a culture of its own. It should come as no surprise that 40k is different from a setting authored by someone steeped in the themes of American cultural mythos.
Its like saying because I want my girlfriend to dress up in a tight leather nazi uniform and give me a spanking I must be a closet fascist, even though the concept originated in Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_fiction
>>48011314
>alt-right
into the trash it goes
>>48013301
>>48013082
Well how would you explain 40k to people while trying to capture it's fuckhuegness?
If I'm about to sperg out about some badass shit from a BL book or explain what my desktop background is to friends who aren't into such thingsdesu neither am I, 40k is the only /tg/ thing I read about and probably the most nerdy interest apart from booksI explain it as "some badass military dudes shooting aliens in the future" and that feels retarded as fuck, nor does it convey in any way what 40k is.
It's dystopian LoTR in speehs gets the meaning across. Except if that wasn't his intention, but that's the first thing I though of and can't think of anything else that would remotely make sense.
>>48011687
>>48011669
thanks m8 I don't want to contribute page views to some cuck obsessive alt-right edgelord
If there is an unhealthy aspect to 40k, it has to do with its playerbase.
"Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe they're in good company."
>>48013382
Let me guess, you think '300' is a cautionary tale against nationalism?
>>48013518
300 is a circle jerk praising Spartan values in a society that sells 64 oz big gulps.
>>48013421
This sort of reductionist thinking is problematic.
I could come up with dozens of other environmental theories to explain the WH40K setting. Some of them might be true. How could we even know? Better to take the setting on its own terms rather than attempting to distill it into human component parts.
>>48013382
This guy gets it.
40k was originally satire, heavily influenced by the same aesthetic that produced the golden age of the 2000 AD magazine.
It was only when neckbeard fanboys got a hold of it and began to actually take the lore seriously that we got the clusterfuck we have now.
Look at the original White Dwarf articles, the early sculpts and tell me that this game was meant to be taken seriously as anything other than over-the-top silliness and a fun way to spend an afternoon.
There's two underlying statements here. One is that liberalism has installed itself as the only possible system of values. It is so prevalent in our "entertainment" it makes all other systems look like jokes.
The other implication is that western liberals don't really live on the same planet as all other political groups. The idea that the environment is hostile and requires effort and sacrifice to overcome it is lost on these people. To a liberal, technology and society exist to remove effort, and not allow one to make more effort.
I think this is what draws people to 40k and I can agree with the author here. It provides escape from a form of ideology and doublethink prevalent in all of our media. This is what sells plastic crack.
>>48013193
Have you read Dune?
He's absolutely right about it. Its a Hero story with about the liberally minded house Atredies getting nearly getting destroyed by the evil, conniving, maniacal, over the top cruel house Harkonen. The hero of Dune can only retake planet Arrakis after siding with the only other rebels on the planet (the fremen) and mastering the sandworms (conquering nature) and mastering his own latent psychic powers (man as a malleable object to be tamed).
In dune there are several explicit excerpts detailing how the liberal attitudes of the new masters of Arrakis (Atredies) are better than the old ones (Harkonen)
-They give out water to beggars outside their house who previously had to suck it out of used towels
-They refusing to leave spice miners to die to the sandworms even at the expense of the spice collector (harkonen would save the spice collector)
-They didn't tax the ever living shit out of Arrakis until everyone was living in poverty like Harkonen
In the end the hero wins a pitched battle against both the harkonen and the sardaukar of the emperor in one fatal battle with the help of the fremen rebels.
That is a very optimistic view and stems from a modern/western point of departure about the "rightness" of a democratic egalitarian western society and its eventual triumph over evil.
40k absolutely inverts that by having the "Heroes" of the setting be shit to their people because the world outside of humanity is so much more unforgiving. There could by necessity not be a democratic or egalitarian society in 40k because the margin for basic survival is so small that even slight deviations from an utterly brutal worldview would mean ruin for the imperium.
>>48013608
I don't think it has anything to do with progressivism.
The whole idea behind 40k is that its fun to pretend to be the bad guy.
>>48011314
>values usually associated with science fiction
> interspecies sex
We've not been reading and watching the same kind of sci-fi works, bruh.
>>48013596
>40k was originally satire
Hyperbolic caricaturizations can be used by those who sympathize with the underlying themes. Just look at /pol/.
>>48013596
>Look at the original White Dwarf articles, the early sculpts and tell me that this game was meant to be taken seriously as anything other than over-the-top silliness and a fun way to spend an afternoon.
Even if it did start off as something of a joke, it quickly took on a life of its own. Human influences or mindsets don't matter in the end.
>>48011669
>1984
>Fascist
I don't know what he's been taking but I want some.
Haven't you ever just wanted to dress up like a nazi for halloween?
People dress up like Jeffry Dalmer or John Wayne Gacy all the fucking time, but the minute somebody puts on a nazi uniform its like, "Ugh, so tasteless."
All I want is 5 minute break from being "the nice guy" all the god damn time. Is that so much to ask?
>>48013643
>The whole idea behind 40k is that its fun to pretend to be the bad guy.
Most people think the Space Marines are the good guys though.
>>48013653
You can sympathize with something without agreeing with its premise. I can feel sorry for a serial killer who was abused as a child, they still should get the chair.
>http://alternative-right.blogspot.com/
>>48013718
see link
>>48013508
>>48013193
WH40K is an explicit inversion of both Dune and every Asimov serie.
>>48013650
I like how he put special emphasis on it, even though it's got nothing to do with either 40k or any of the other stuff mentioned in the text.
I'd like to hear the author's explanation on how interspecies sex is a cultural value outside of Wales. Also, since this is tg, what species in particular.
>>48013160
>Al tough he's a faggot for linking to 1dchan for further explanation.
i'd say 1d is much more "outsider-friendly" than clusterfuck of text walls in lexi or w40kwiki. And his text is clearly writen not only for level 99 neckbeards like >us.
>>48013806
>I'd like to hear the author's explanation on how interspecies sex is a cultural value outside of Wales. Also, since this is tg, what species in particular.
Are you implying that sexing sexy aliens isn't a recurring trope in SF ?
There's probably something about earned victory compared to SW or ST. One of the recurring themes in 40k is that humanity is basically outclassed by everything and survives trough sheer balls, massed manpower or simply sacrifice - even if those balls are transhuman.
When in Star Wars the good guys can destroy the death star with the loss of a few fighters, it takes the sacrifice of a whole space marine chapter - something that is arguably one of the best military force deployed in-universe - to do so in 40k. That's because 40k doesn't really follow a hollywoodian logic.
In 40k a human victory - or even, any victory - never feels cheap.
>>48013793
WH40K is also, in a way, an inversion of 1984 themes.
No newspeak, no doublethink, real meaningful war instead of play pretending. The administration being blind and incompetent - unlike the miniluv. Big E really watching you trough psychic powers...
>>48014183
Also, Big E actually caring about you, but being absolutely unable to do anything, except in rare cases.
>>48014225
Yeah, that's the thing. 40k is so deeply opposed to what is probably the staple of dystopia it's a wonder people still compare both (I know I do, for people who don't know what is 40K).
In 1984, the inner party is totally non-corrupt and purge itself regularly. Big Brother is a lie, the war is a lie and the proverbial boot on the civilian face is purely for gratuitous oppression.
In 40K, the upper echelons are all corrupt and are glued to their seats, Big E exists, watches you and actually care for you, the war is way too real and the boot on your face is actually the guardsman's - who is trying to save your world from unspeakable horrors.
>>48012833
The author here recognises that 40k is a "caricature", he's saying it appeals to people unironically too. Judge Dredd is a good comparison, since (like Warhammer) it was ultimately satirical and comedic, but (like Warhammer) a lot of fans ended up sympathizing with the object of the satire. It has the same kind of appeal as the Punisher.
I think a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum would agree with the basic point being made, that people find fiction like this an entertaining outlet for feelings and experiences that would be frowned on in modern society.
>>48014388
40k is still just as much a dystopia as 1984 though. It's just that in one the sucky world is caused by the horrible system in place, and in the other the horrible world they live in necessitates a sucky system to deal with it.
I think the fact that space marines and orks are the most popular and iconic factions means most people don't care about these lofty bullshit concepts like satire and trope inversion and they just want to have fun with goofy space knights and hooligans.
>>48013396
I think that shitwaffle is trying to say that satire can be taken completely straight and as an argument for what its satirizing. Which is retarded, but what else can you expect from the "alt-right"?
>>48011314
>LOTR in space
One sentence in and I'm already mad.
>>48013688
Yeah, that was my reaction, too.
>>48013688
Let me guess, you think famous socialist George Orwell wrote 1984 to secretly tell everyone that socialism is bad and how wrong he is.
Yep, that sounds totally fucking rational and not at all a retarded conservative excuses to miss the point of the novel.
>>48012943
neckbeard edgelord detected.
How many times was folded your cut-through-steel katana again ?
*tips fedora*
>>48018790
>setting based on derivative fantasy with added sci fi themes
>ERMAGERD ITS NOT LORD OF THE RINGZ!!!!!!!11
Lets play a game faggot. If you had to compare warhammer fantasy battle to a popular media series, what would it be? Probably the one that also has race-segregated factions fighting for good and evil in a pseudo medieval time.
So, now that there is no question where WFB gets it's inspiration from, what would you think if the setting was copy pasted into a dystopian future?
If you dont think LotR in space then you're dumb enough that your opinions are invalid
>>48013488
I gave him a pageview just to annoy you.
>>48013609
Have you read the rest of the series? It's more like "God-Emperor of Dune" than it is like "Dune" itself. But a lot of elements are clearly borrowed from the Dune series, as well as other classic sci-first, like Starship Troopers.
>>48013609
I mean, how much of that is liberalism versus basic 'not the bad guy' stuff? Since almost everyone here is from a liberal democracy I get we have skewed views, but not a lot of people think you should starve out the poor and tax everything into oblivion. Everyone thinks they're providing everyone with what they deserve and only take what they need; so its hard to imagine a political statement is being made when someone writes a story that boils down to "freedom and prosperity is good, oppression is bad."
>>48017495
Would this be Poe's Law at work?
>>48013718
Space marines, at their origin, are basically British men's fantasies about homosexual fetishism with sand nigger men. The emperor is from the middle east and the space marines are OBSESSED with his gene seed and the organs it grows. They value his seed so much that they implant it into their body along with the organs grown from it. Few men can survive the emperor's sand niggie organs. This is taking cuck levels to a new extreme that simply has never existed in the history of mankind. Along with the "kroot fuck my sister for the greater good" tau, the space marines are the two cuck civilizations of 40k.
>>48014004
This is true. Any losses in SW are quickly rectified or swept under the rug after the victory. At the most there's a couple of shots of the protagonist looking whimsically at nothing before they're pulled off to the victory celebration.
The canon endings of almost all the Dawn of War games emphasize how you've either made things worse or how you snatched victory with broken, bleeding hands and sacrifice. It accords the dead their proper due.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKIAMAqGNIY
>>48013552
>How could we even know
Because Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader isn't a theory in your sociology text? It's a real thing - i.e., a tabletop wargame with, as explicitly stated in numerous author's notes, a mash-up of Milton and 80s pop culture as its backdrop?
That's how.
Also, 40k is - not Tolkien alone - but Warhammer in space. Again, acknowledged by its authors to be OC Donuts inspired by M Moorcock, P Anderson, J Tolkien and bad Pinewood fantasy films in roughly equal measure.
>>48020443
>Again, acknowledged by its authors
Not all influences are acknowledged, and acknowledgments after the fact don't necessarily correspond to reality.
>>48013806
Spock was half human.
>>48013806
>I'd like to hear the author's explanation on how interspecies sex is a cultural value outside of Wales.
Race mixing is heavily pushed.
I could see how 40k's appeal for some people would be grounded in sympathizing with right-wing ideas, given that the /tg/ crowd is precisely the kind of demographic that'd buy into romanticized horseshit about muh valor and muh glory.
>>48011314
>>48011423
>>48012016
>>48013487
>>48013193
>Plebs don't know 40K is a giant parody of Milton's Paradise Lost, dressed up to look like judge dredd.
>>48026678
But literally every faction is about >muh glory.
Everyone has fallen from their greatness. Even Tyranids, this is the galaxy where the Hive Mind first felt fear and was wounded by both Slaanesh and the Emperor. Their Hive Fleets are getting fucked up, at a cost but still. Not something a race that has already devoured 12 galaxies would be proud of.
Everyone has different reasons for fighting back, for trying to survive and even win the conflict and different endgame scenarios, yet it all boils down to >muh glory, either attaining your old might back or securing yourself as the strongest. It's not the only thing 40k is about, but you can't seriously deny that it isn't one of the main fluff themes.
>>48013806
Fun fact, that sheepshagging stereotype happened in numerous places where the punishment for fucking a sheep was less than stealing it.
So all the poor retards getting caught stealing a sheep just dropped their trousers and wen't "ooops, you totally busted me guys"
In some places the penalty for stealing was losing your hand, while the penalty for fucking it was a fine or a whipping etc.
>>48013609
Wait, are we talking about the same series?
>"rightness" of a democratic egalitarian western society and its eventual triumph over evil.
In which the protagonist avenges his father, takes over the galaxy and is responsible for the death of billions, by his own admission? And his family wins over through populist tactics?
I swear, american politics are confusing. I don't even know how the difference between your left and your right unless it's about the self-parodical extremes.
Btw, what is "american liberalism"?
>>48027721
>Plebs don't know 40K is a giant parody of Milton's Paradise Lost
Except that the Horus Heresy (while well-written and indeed done after paradise lost), was introduced in Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine (to allow for play with mirrored armies).
40k would still exist without it.
And it's not simpy dress or Judge Dredd. 40k was heavily inspired by a lot of the 2000AD production, including Rogue Trooper, Strontium Dog, ABC warriors or Nemesis. Not to mention the various other sources, like Moorcock.
You should learn to lore before talking like a condescending asshole.
