What went wrong /tg/?
First codex of a new edition syndrome. Dark Angels had it for 6th.
>>47995650
Not having it be written by someone that has ever played the game.
>>47997910
It wasn't even good by 6E standards.
Made me optimistic that 40k was moving to a lower power level. Then Eldar and co hit. I sure love spending half an hour getting models out and deploying, them putting half of them back on the first turn.
>>47997910
>Dark Angels had it for 6th
WE NEED TO GO BACK
>>47995650
They tried to rebalance a codex that didnt need rebalance it needed a straight buff there are lots of issues the most core ones are new mob rule, no invulns, and ramshackle + pinning tests.
>>47998094
Also the part where the guns are strictly worse than their SM equivalents, and the points difference was already accounted for with BS2.
>>47998037
If it's happening to you on the first turn, it sounds like you probably suck at the game in general desu
Use reserves, null deploy, use cover, deploy better, take a better list, deploy better
>>47995650
Nothing went wrong.
<3 Orks
>>47997910
*cough* *cough* scuse me the first codex fo 6th is ... still current.... But I guess everyone just forgot about it by now. Such a fate, from the terror of the Imperium to the laughing stock of space marine players.....Why do we deserve this?
>>47998401
>Use reserves
So half my Orks die on turns 3/4 instead? Nice tactics faggot.
>use cover
So my CC army has to move through rough terrain, taking slightly less casualties on the one turn it's in the terrain? Nice tactics faggot.
>take a better list
So swap my Ork army for Eldar? Nice tactics faggot
>deploy better le deploy le better le XDDDD deploy better topkek lolz :^)
Yeah I'll fit 150 Orks behind that one piece of LOS-blocking terrain. Nice tactics faggot.
>>47998401
Have you played an army of the following?
Nids, CSM, DE, Orks
If not, shutup. If you reserve, you put them off the table turn two. What difference does it make?
The problem is that these armies are considered melee armies. Ufortunatly the concept melee army without loads of fast stuff does not work.
>>47998094
>Mob Rule
Because they were trying cut back on Fearless and actually make Fear a relevant mechanic. Possibly trying to buff SM too by making ATSKNF somewhat unique.
>No invulns
In line with what other changes, primarily Iron Hands. It makes more sense that cybernetics confer FnP compared to an invulnerable save, the latter of which has usually been due to forcefields or psychic powers.
The changes could be improved, but I think they were in line with trying to improve certain aspects of the game and being consistent.
>>47995650
>What went wrong /tg/?
GW codices tend to follow this sort of rollercoaster pattern wherein power creep hits a few codices, and then they realize they need to tone it down. Then after toning it down, they feel confident and start writing more powerful stuff. Due to lack of playtesting, it inevitably is too strong. Eldar avoid this problem because they are a pet army of a certain Phil Kelly.
Orks just happened to be in the "codices need to be toned down" phase, or as I call it, the hangover phase.
Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines got hit hard by it in 4th edition too with a more simplified style thanks to Jervis, and then Space Marines in 5th ignored that style because of Mat Ward.
Basically, if your codex isn't the pet army of the writer, expect for it to suck.
>>48000323
>Mob Rule
They took the one rule that (at times) was beneficial, and made it a complete shitty detriment. It a nerf when it went from 2d6 compare unit size, to Fearless and suck extra casualties because lolz deal with it, greenskin suckers! Now it's the only special rule the have left, and it makes massochism a requirement to enjoy playing the, because clearly Fantasy orcs didn't fulfill thet niche for lol-stupid-randumbz.
>It makes more sense that cybernetics confer FnP compared to an invulnerable save, the latter of which has usually been due to forcefields or psychic powers.
In which case they shouldn't have been muhreen fanboy asshata about, by gutting the fucking army of invulns. Make Cybork a FnP, and give them a new wargear item called "persuhnal kustom force field". Don't take a close combat centric army, that you've already gutted of combat focus, and make it worse.
>>48000601
Orks haven't had a good codex since 3rd edition. Even the 4th one had it's shit, particularly because Nob Biker was about the only competitive list they could do during 5th (until Space Yiffs came out).
>>47995650
Well, replacing Mob Rule with a "Your dudes attack themselves" table didn't help.
>>47995650
EVERYTHING WENT FUCKING WRONG! You were supposed to be the chosen one!
>>48000896
4th edition Orks were bad because they turned the army from a cool and fun collection of units to "Aspect Orks" with a much bigger focus on CC.
But then again, what can you expect from Phil Kelly, the worst codex writer?
Although, back in 4th, Ork Boyz with shootas were ridiculous. Easily outshot any other faction and this was back when Rapid Fire was complete shit. Once they finally fixed Rapid Fire weapons, Ork Shoota Boyz went down the drain.
Orks still suffer from the "Aspect Orks" syndrome. Hopefully one day they'll go back to their 2nd/3rd edition selves.
>>48001428
GW had to push ork boy sales somehow... Making ork players need 33% more boys is their mantra, every codex "update".
>>47995650
it doesn't make any sense to me that orcs are str 3. you tryna tell me an orc boy is no stronger than an elf? or a human? complete bullshit.
bs 2? with no more shots than any other army? complete bullshit, if you wanna make em bs 2, and then write in their lore that they love shooting for the sound it makes, give them more shots.
make them able to assault out of deepstrike, make all of their vehicles assault vehicles if they aren't already. stop making the game easier for faggots that wanna just play tau and eldar and shoot stuff. give orcs charge on 3d6 instead of 2, whats wrong little faggot elf? you scared? you should be.
>>48001530
Except the only unit that competed in close combat, were nobs.
The aspect bous isn't even the biggest problem. It's that they can't fight their way out of a paper bag anymore. And te last vestiges that made 4th worth playing, were cut out or made shit-tier. Walker armies... Bike kult... Kult of Speed... Klans died in 4th, but at least with the force-org changing shit you could have fun, if your opponent didn't play Yiffs, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, or Necrons.
Also Rapid -Fire wasn't "fixed", but rather used as a way to further nerf assault weapons.
>>48001583
None of that would actually fix the army, or bring back the players that gave up years ago.
>>48000860
Orks were not the only ones that suffered from the Fearless drawback in 5th Edition.
I'll also note they technically didn't gut the armies of invulnerable saves, to my knowledge the Kustom Force Field and and variant of it on the Morkanaut and I believe now the new Ork flyer exist.
Why they didn't add a piece of equipment that confers invulnerable saves, I'm not sure. Maybe it was too powerful or at least thought to be in combination with the FnP granted by either a cybork body or a Painboy and T5 Warbosses have, the latter to my knowledge largely rendering the chance of instant death and no FnP due to a weapon with double strength very low.
>>48001530
I've never really got the Aspect criticism, probably because I'm not sure what the alternative is supposed to be. 40k either doesn't or has very little army synergy and synergy between units, meaning that units basically have to perform some sort of role whether that be anti-infantry, anti-armor, shooting, close combat, etc.
>>48001583
The lore and game mechanics aren't one to one, but S4 has seemingly come to mean Marine strength and regular Boyz are not as strong as Marines. In fact, I don't recall strength ever being the thing especially touted about Orks, instead it was their toughness they were always known for which is why they have T4 at the least.
Orks need to go back to Waaaagh, 'ere we go and freebooter days. Klan's, weirdboyz, madboys charts and fun stuff not this meh codex rubbish
My biggest gripe with the Mob rule change is actually the idea of randomly allocating to a unit that could be over two dozen strong.
I mean how do you REALLY GENUINELY do that? Number them all off and use a random number generator app?
Do tournies have a generally accepted way? Or is it just always down to the two players to agree 'that's random enough'
>>47995650
They tried "rebalancing" the codex because, relative to the rest of the 5ed codex, some things were better than others. What the writers failed to realize, was that even the best things were still only good, and that every other army would get nothing but buffs in the future, because the writers never speak to each other or something.
So some really shitty things, like flash gitz were made only mostly shit, some half decent things were made crap again, like nob bikers, and everything else stayed the same, like nobz.
Objective power level remained the same, but with some key things being removed like mob rule and invulns. These wouldn't have been so bad if the writers didn't decide to do nothing but buff already powerful codices for the rest of 7ed, making it much much weaker relatively speaking, because of things like eldar getting D strength flamers on their meganobz equivalent.
>>47998630
Seconded.
I started playing again about a year and a half ago with Nids with a group of friends who were much more into it. I love my bugs but it was dreadful. I still paint a bug or two when I feel like it, but I've stopped playing in a couple months.
>>48001583
In 40k there's a huge jump between Str3 and Str4.
Str3 is a gun's bullet whose purpose is to penetrate through light armor and flesh to possibly cause massive blood loss and hopefully damage some vital organs to a human target.
S4 is a bolter round, a rocket-propelled grenade in a penetrating shell, meant to go through cover and armor and blow up inside you.
Orks are stronger than regular men, but Space Marines are far stronger than that.
>>48007189
Nonsense, fluff always talks like they're a physical match
Anyway, balance before fluff. Just fucken let us have base S4 already (even if you want to replace FC with it), a supposedly melee race having the same strength and WORSE initiative than a guardsman is garbage
>>47995650
Not enough Dakka.
>>48007247
How about;
> S4
> A1
> FC replaced with Rage
That way they fit the fluff better, are identical on the charge, and weaker off the charge. Maybe weaker enough to justify a cut to 5pts/head.
>>48007247
No, Nobz and the like are a match. Hence their Str 4.
>>48007247
The initiative is the real killer. Orks went from an army that actively wanted to charge shit because they wrecked face, to an army that just stands around and gets killed before they flail miserably and then kill themselves.
>>48008844
Except their not a match anymore. Str 4 is nice and all, but it's not like Nobs have been anything to be feared since 4th and first half of 5th edition.
>>48008684
2 attacks has been standard. Dropping them to one, just to make them shittier unarmored space marines, would ensure that they stay in storage.
>>47995650
new mob rule
too many morale problems
NO invulns like what the fuck
a lot of their shit just straight up needs a +1
also weird stats that don't make sense on some units, like how nobs are made of paper for their point value, compared to the point value of boyz
>>48002603
The KFF was changed to an invuln.
But they still gutted the army's invuln saves. When you get into close combat, your HQ and Nobs need those personal invuln saves. Yeah a 5+ wasn't astounding, but it made the difference against a marine with a powerfist, a hive tyrant, or even a greater daemon of khorne. Now, you just fold like a wet paper towel, and your (only) CC powerhouses, the Warboss and Nobs, can't go toe to toe with anything beyond a guarsman captain. Nevermind the fucking 4++ (and previous 3++) nonsense marine faggots hid behind.
>I've never really got the Aspect criticism, probably because I'm not sure what the alternative is supposed to be.
The problem here, is it followed the exact same formula of Eldar. Ork players called it the "aspekt skwad" setup, because it was boring, had no options, and made for copy-pasted units you couldn't change. Boy mobs lost their burna options they so loved, and instead we got burna mobs of nothing but burnas (who horded the army's stock of burnas, apparently). The entire tankbusta mob had rokkits and tankbusta bombs... All lootas had the same fucking d3 shot autocannon, no variation or options. Mega Nobs had to go play in their own shitty sandbox without access to a bosspole (4th ed codex). Ad nauseum.
It's boring, uninteresting, and removes a lot of the creativity and fun Ork players used to have when building units. 3rd ed Tank Bustas could be kept cheap with only tankbusta bombs. Burnas could be sprinkled through an army, and could lead to a themed "fire themed" list full of skorchas and burnas. Lootas could have a wide variety of weapon options, and it was FUN (4 Plasma Cannons; all sniper rifles; Pulse Carbines and Photon Grenades; fucking lightning claws). Then 4th came and every unit had to be it's own thing, with every model the same, and some of them even had completely worthless sergeant upgrades (e.g. Mekboys in Loota/Burna mobs).
>>48006906
>because the writers never speak to each other or something.
Since the 8E Lizardmen army book the whole design team has apparently worked on books.
>>48007247
The low initiative kind of makes sense since Orks are more about being slow and durable.
Maybe the solution is to go beyond 1-10 for stats or just drop most of them all together and switch to hard numbers needed to hit and wound.
>>48009609
Lootas sound cool, but also kind of a mess. An example perhaps of the kind of rules bloat that apparently plagues current 40k.
>>48009793
The low initiative only makes sense currently, because they've been nerfed to fucking hell. Orks used to have really good initiative when charging. It would double on a successful Mob check (2d6
compared to ubnit size), meaning Boys swung at 4, Nobs at 6 if they had choppas, and Warbosses at 8 if they weren't using the almighty Power Klaw (they always used PK).
4the rolled around, and Phil fucked them in the ass by changing it to Furious Charge (+1 Str and +1 Initiative), making the army sit around and let the opponent swing first. Nobs leading mobs no longer ever took choppas, because why the fuck bother with Initiative 4? So a PK became the defacto standard of any Nob expected to pull his weight, while boys became "almost always strikes last" cannon fodder.
If they actually were durable, that'd be a different matter entierely. But swing last, and die like slightly tougher guarsmen, does not make for a compelling combat army. Hell Guardians and Tau are more survivable now.
>Lootas sound cool, but also kind of a mess. An example perhaps of the kind of rules bloat that apparently plagues current 40k.
Nope. The rules were simple. They copied the weapon and transport upgrade options of another squad from a list available, namely SM Scouts, SM Tactical, SM Veterans, SM Devastators, IG Squad, IG Weapon Squad, IG Amrored Fist Squad. With opponent's permission, you could take weapon upgrades from any army. Looted Vehicles were much the same... A vehicle purchased as a BS 2 version of another army's (e.g. Basilisk, Land Raider, Predator, Lemun Russ), but with Ork vehicle upgrades.
It actually wasn't that bloated at all.
>>47995650
IT WOZENT ORKY ENUFF!
TEE. AN ORK!
>>48009959
It's arguably kind of bloated in what you need to remember, though I suppose not much. Also seems like it could be a pain to balance, if not with other armies then within in the army and unit itself. Though I suppose that isn't new for 40k. Someone before brought up a good point that while the options in 40k are cool, the majority are also usually useless because one option will prove superior. I think one of the examples that sort of contradicts that is the options available to Space Marines where you take the weapon to suit a particular role. However even that sort of suffers, a multi melta for example is always going to be better at the anti armor function compared to a lascannon.
Why does anyone even deal with this shit? If ya wanna paint minis, then paint minis. But can't you all see this shit being rigged? Armies get buffed or nerfed depending on what GW wants to sell more of. They don't give two shits about balance. So who would be masochistic enough to even bother with this "game" when the game isn't what defines the balance; but rather business and sales figures do.
I mean, for fuck's sake. Dawn of War did a better job with balance than this shit.
>>47995650
People still buy models and codex. If orks player completely stopped buying, they would get the best codex ever and a complete reupdate of the army within 2 years.
>>48001622
If an army still need a pro top 1% player to be just right, then it's not a good army...
>>48010384
People used to buy. Orks were a strong seller back in 5th, when they finally got a new update on models. Now, not so much. They don't sell anywhere near that of any single marine chapter, and even their community forum is silent. This was a community that produced some of the best modelers, plasticard builders, and enthusiasts in all of 40k. Most of them had at least 2 full Ork armies, if not more. Now it's fucking crickets. Imagine if Bolter and Chainsword suddenly had a 70% drop in traffic, and the two most recent modelling posts had 0 replies, and were followed immediately by one dating back to December of last year.
The Ork community is dead on arrival right now. And their sales are at an all time low, at a time when 40k is already waning in popularity.
And sadly not even the perfect codex, that they've been asking for for a decade, would actually revitalize that community.
>>48010419
They already have assault vehicles.
Even at Str 4 base, with 3d6 charge, they still would have to sit around and get slaughtered before taking a swing. Provided they even make it.
Their only deepstrikers (afaik) are Stormboyz, and they have never been anything more than jump-pack choppa boys without weapon upgrades.
So competitive bullshit aside, no... Those changes would not fix the army. Nor would it make faggot eldars scared. The first step, is to fix Mob Rule into an actual benefit. The second, is to fix them into an army that can actually survive this edition without just having 2/3rds of it scraped off the table by turn 2. Third would be to make the army actually fun to play again, and a good start would be to not have it require 9 troop choices. 4th, klans. Nuff said. And 5th, fix the fucking units that are sucking, give them back personal invulns, and make the units more customizable.
>>48010343
> New stuff is deliberately overpowered to sell models!
> Assault Centurions
> Darktalon
> Nephilim
> Land Speeder Vengeance
> Tempestus Scions
> Taurox
> Corposcarii
> Fulgurites
> Mutilators
> Warp Talons
> Voidweaver
> Wazbomb Blastajet
> Gorkanaut
> Morkanaut
> Pyrovore
> Haruspex
> Maleceptor
> Toxicrene
Oh wait, no, that's
T O T A L S H I T
>>48010266
The bloat was minor with lootas. Everyone knows what a lascannon, plasmacannon, meltagun, or sniper rifle is. Everyone knows the statline. So all the bloat the Lootas had, was here's 10 orks, one of which is a Nob with usual PK, and they have:
- 4 plasma cannons at BS 2, and a rhino.
Looted Vehicle was just as easy. Everyone knew what a Russ Battle Tank, or Basilisk was (by far the most common selections). Here's a Basilisk at BS 2, with a Red Paint Job.
The other thing to note is that Orks, even back then, didn't have clear "best option weapon". Big Shootas were assault heavy bolters. Rokkits were mediocre anti-tank, about the best option you had for it. Burnas were flamethrowes that could be used as 2-handed power weapons at normal strength. It's not like the Orks were a marine chapter codex, filled with excessive options and weapons that kept getting added every edition. The only constant with Orks has been "Big Choppas suck balls", and "take cybork (previous codices)".
>>47995650
Games Workshop cannot write good rules.
>>48010715
Games Workshop can't even make a good game.
>>47998401
you actually have no idea what youre talking about mate
>>47995650
>What went wrong /tg/?
>>48002603
WHAT. Name all the close combat invulns you double nigger.
>>48010597
You think at this point that people would know this. What makes it even funnier is that the models are completed before the rules, so GW has given some of the best looking and highest priced models absolutely shitty rules.
The Design Studio may know game development, but it's doubtful they know what is good in the system they've created.
>>48011614
I was just thinking of invulnerables in general, though in hindsight I suppose it does make sense that the ones that exist only function against shooting.
Again, I think what GW was thinking when they designed the Ork codex is that either the FnP conveyed by Painboys or cybork bodies would be enough to make Orks durable. This especially comes to mind with the current way of building an army where multiple detachments would allow you to take multiple Painboys.
>>48012253
It doesn't make sense at all. Toughness 5 isn't all that phenomenal to have. Sure you ID at Str 10, but you're still wounded on 5's by the baseline average, your armor still sucks (unless you're in mega), and you still fold like a paper bag the minute you go up against any kind of CC character.
Whatever the fuck they were thinking, it most definitely was not "how do we improve this waning army?" The entire removal of cc Invulns screams of either someone wanting their special snowflake HQ to have no problems slaughtering Ork characters; or it screams of complete incompetence by a dev who thought FnP fit better for cybork, but just didn't have the fucking consider the ramifications of making that change. Knowing Phil Kelly's track record, my bet is on the former.
>>48012581
Like I said in the first part of my post, I'd wager it's GW using as a testbed either themselves or people who would be better described as casual players, thus certain things don't come out. Alternatively they have an entirely different view of the game. This is all just guessing though.
Perhaps in the future this will change, they invited three competitive players in to help test out the General's Handbook that is going to be released for AoS. Perhaps in the future they will make similar outreach, particularly if 8th Edition 40k is something of a shakeup.
FnP does fit better for cybork because it's in line with what they've been doing to bionics elsewhere, of course as has been pointed out they didn't add anything to makeup for the lost close combat invulnerable save.
I doubt Phil Kelly had as much impact as you think, particularly since last was known he was strictly working on lore for the books. Even if he did work on the book it was a team effort and not something like the old days were one or two authors seemingly shouldered most of the load. GW started giving the Design Studio as a whole credit because in one way or another it's the truth, not to try and protect writers like some people claim.
They didn't squat them. Problem #1 right there.
>>48009793
>Since the 8E Lizardmen army book the whole design team has apparently worked on books.
Lies!
Since 8E Lizardmen, they *attribute* books to the whole studio team, to mitigate the personal hate that individual writers *cough*Matt Ward*cough* receive for their horrible output.
They are written exactly the same as they have always been forever i.e. by one person, possibly reviewed by a couple of others, with essentially no rigorous playtesting or editing.
>>48009959
>Nope. The rules were simple. They copied the weapon and transport upgrade options of another squad from a list available, namely SM Scouts, SM Tactical, SM Veterans, SM Devastators, IG Squad, IG Weapon Squad, IG Amrored Fist Squad. With opponent's permission, you could take weapon upgrades from any army. Looted Vehicles were much the same... A vehicle purchased as a BS 2 version of another army's (e.g. Basilisk, Land Raider, Predator, Lemun Russ), but with Ork vehicle upgrades.
Could you imagine that now? Orks with Drop Pods and Grav Cannons. Me bosspole iz gettin ded ard just thinkin bout it.
>>48016838
Technically that was before there was a drop pod option for marines...
>>48016413
And you're evidence for this is?
The thing about the entire team working on books comes from Johnson himself and I think I'll take his word over people on the internet who can't comprehend that GW can change the way it does things and also want to jerk themselves off a little.
I must have a stupid local group or something. I play 2k point Orks list every week and I'm 7 and 1. My only loss came to a tau tag. I simply love playing As the boyz. I get that Orks are not as good as the other races, but you can't count them out. It's all about the person that's playing them.
>>48019006
What's your list?
>>48019006
I highly doubt it's because you're some amazing prodigy at 40k. The fact that you play at 2000 points is already enough to make me suspect your group is just bad or super casual. Especially when you're not even good enough to beat half a Tau army anyway.
Most likely they don't actually have 2k point armies and are just throwing in random wargear to make their point costs go up.
>>48018070
You start from a false premise.
Jervis *would* say that, if indeed the purpose is to shield individual authors from hate. So we can't trust him, because he has an incentive to lie. If the reason really was because everyone worked on it, they could easily list every author by name; but they don't - they deliberately anonymize them as the "design studio".
So, we need evidence. But, there is none! Indeed, the very position Jervis advances implies that it would be exceedingly difficult for there to be any evidence of that position, since it anonymizes the individual(s) so that no-one has any more claim to authority than any other. Funny, that.
Therefore, we fall back to the reasonable default: there is no reasonable evidence that anything has changed, so we assume that nothing has changed.
If GW had a good track record for openness and honesty, that might weigh into how much Jervis's comments constitute reasonable evidence. Unfortunately, his word is worth about the same as any other self-interested long-term employee of GW when speaking unofficially: approximately nothing.
I don't doubt that GW can change, and believe that they slowly are (y'know, where I can see evidence that it's happening). I also have tremendous respect for Jervis - but I don't trust him, not one bit.
>>48012581
At least you aren't ID'd by krak missiles with T5, S10 is far less plentiful than S8.
>>47995650
Games Workshop
/thread
>>48010597
toxicrene is actually really fucking good
6 poisoned 2+ attacks at AP2 I6 with ID on 6(5+ with hypertoxic node) is nothing to scoff at
>>48009793
>Maybe the solution is to go beyond 1-10 for stats or just drop most of them all together and switch to hard numbers needed to hit and wound.
Really, the only hope for 40k in general is the AoS treatment.
>>48021747
> 6" a turn
> WS3
Its a dedicated monster killer that's too slow/ squishy to fight dangerous monsters. Its only useful for hunting the equally-shit MCs that can neither outrun nor outfight it.
Would orks players like a "send in the next wave" rule somewhere?
Could it be a way to help foot slogging lists?
>>48023896
Most of the problem Ork players have, is that their army has been steadily kicked down several knotches in worth. Imagine playing something like Space Marines, and over 2 (and 10 years) codices having them reduced to Initiative 3, no power weapons, no invulnerable saves, morale 7, and no ATSKNF, all so they can be 8pts a model.
They can already field 9 fucking troop choices, and that doesn't fix jack shit. IMO, I would rather orks regained lost their target-practice status. Make them tougher, make them more competebt in CC.
>>48020129
back in 5th, I reluctantly used Wazzdakka. He was rubbish, but was the only way to get a bike army that was't all nobs. Not having an Invuln BLOWS ASS in CC. For all his "titan killing might", he was a fat pile of failure in close combat. I actually watched once where a lone Lightning Claw terminator with three attacks hit three times, (reroll) wounded 3 times, and killed him outright in a single round of combat.
T5 does only so much, even if you're not instant-deathrd by non-10 weapons.
>>48000323
>Because they were trying cut back on Fearless and actually make Fear a relevant mechanic. Possibly trying to buff SM too by making ATSKNF somewhat unique.
It didnt have to be what it is now though its current state is a straight nerf that cripples what is supposed to be the core of the ork army.
>No invulns
Doesnt matter what form its in its still a mistake taking out invulns for orks completely.
Hell making cybork give EW or add +1 to an existing FnP roll would have been better as it is its redundant.
>>48002603
Youre grasping at straws and spewing fallacy, the place orks need the invulns is in melee.
Its a CC centric army meant to be a whipping boy for marine power fantasies, its fucking sad.
>>48012253
>the FnP conveyed by Painboys or cybork bodies would be enough to make Orks durable.
That 6+ cybork that doesnt stack with Dok FnP just screams durability right? and of course 10 str is so rare in CC these days...
They couldnt even make the WB t6 for fucks sake, there is no way all the issues with the ork codex passed lol playtesting.
Seriously man STFU ima call you Jon Snow cus you know nothing.
Holy shit /tg/ all i did was ask a simple question.
>Love Orks since 3rd
>Armageddon is fucking awesome
>Dream of having a kult of speed
>Biker models are shit
>New Ork book, suddenly biker models are great
>Wazdakka has rules, not great, but his fluff is cool, and bikers become troops
>Have fun for several years
>Current book drops
>Everything i love is dead and gone
>No interest in Meganobz or mekgunz
>Gorkanaught looks / plays like garbage
Proud to say i gave GW no money and just shelved the army forever.
The Sunz will ride again, but not in this codex, and probably not in this edition.
>>48010505
Half of my ork purchases have been from the marine, guard and admech lines for looted parts and vehicles.
GW is basing ork sales off something you typically splash other armies in for and cant track.
>>48012253
>I was just thinking of invulnerables in general, though in hindsight I suppose it does make sense that the ones that exist only function against shooting.
Only orks are held to this standard of what makes sense, eldar suiciding fire dragons left and right, marines dieing like flys on the table top despite fluff.
Only orks are getting this "It makes sense." treatment while getting screwed game balance wise. You need a balance between fluff and table top and orks dont have that.
>>48024245
>CC centric army
Inherent problem. I don't play 40k anymore, but Orks were never, ever a close combat specialty army.
>>47995650
>The new mob rule, especially compared to the old one
>No invuln on HQ
>No broken formation/decurion that other 7th codex got
>No unfair units, every codex needs at least unfair unit and everyone got at least one except the Orks, SoB and Deldars.
>New wound allocation system makes bikerstars a lot less powerfull.
>Every other army got better while this one got worse.
I think that's about it. I don't play my Orks in competitive events anymore, they are still fun in casual play tho.
Oh an also : Boyz should really be I3.
>>48014591
EW would fit better than FNP and actually be helpful.
>>48014591
Shut up Phill you codex sucks all you codices suck.
>>48024401
>I don't play 40k anymore,
>What is 3rd edition.
Yes they were.
>>48024459
>what is 3rd edition.
An edition where you'd field enormous amounts of supporting fire because orks could shoot with more dice than there were models on the table.
>>48024335
Ork players generally pay more to build an army than others, tend to spend lots of time converting and customizing, they also tend to love the orks, and they also got completely ass raped this codex.
They are well within their rights to be pissed at what they got.
You had no clue what you were asking.
>>48024478
An edition that changed their stat lines from 3 bs to 2 and added in attacks, gave them str and inv bonus' on the charge to match marines, the edition that eventually spawned the choppa rule.
Just because orks can shoot if they choose doesnt mean they arent a CC centric army, also even CC armys have shooting.
Its also an edition you could mob them with trukk boys and overrun marines and termies easily.
Youre right you dont play warhammer.
>>48024592
No one plays 3rd edition Warhammer 40k.
>>48024180
>he was a fat pile of failure in close combat.
Wazdakka was fucking pathetic in CC if anything could punch back with any weight. he was just another power klaw really.
I still hold out hope they will give him a model and redesign his rules one day, that might make me play Orks again
>>48024611
>Quiet kid youre having trouble following the conversation stfu and learn something.
And they are still running with the CC stat line and many of the core changes it started.
You know cus they are a CC centric army at their core even if they can specialize.
>>47995650
Piece of fucking shit. The older codex from 3rd edition, the super short ones, had more substance than this garbage.
No pictures of conversions or creativity.
The fluff reads like a goddamn history textbook. It's boring, uninspired and engaging.
Goddamn I will never buy from GW again.
>>48024401
3rd ed I would kick the shit out of all but a dedicated tyranid cc army.
>>48024611
Which is a shame, because 3.5 and early 4th was the last time I actually enjoyed playing my orks in 40k.
>>48024401
Bullshit. Even in 2nd they performed well enough. In 3rd, they were geared heavily for combat. And with the 4th ed codex the boys became cannon-fodder for the nobs.
>>48024478
You know nothing, anon.
Orks charged at Initiative 4 on the boyz, with 4 attacks per model, and reduced armor saves to 4+ at best. They were a marine-killing combat force to be reckoned with, and would have fairly even combat fights against World Eater Chaos in the dreaded 3.5 edition Chaos Marine Wankdex. Nids were the only hard match in CC, and that came down mostly to Genestealers being rending monsters, and hormagaunts getting the charge off. But Nids didn't have Basilisks/Russ, Battlewagons, bikes, Nobs, or wartraks with Skorchas.
>>48024493
I would argue that the previous late 4th codex was a subtle rufie ass-rape. This codex was a being strapped to the fuck-barrel, sodomized until your colon bled, and then having your rectum filled with lemon juice.
>>48026430
>you will never again have a Big Mek with a retinue of individualistic Mekboyz
>you will never again have a Painboss with a retinue of cyborks
>you will never again have Flash Gitz with customisable gunz
>you will never again be able to loot vehicles from any enemy army
>you will never again field Lootas with an enemy armies heavy weapons
>you will never again use the Choppa rule
>you will never again mob up
>you will never again have a Battlewagon with a Big Gun, two twin-liinked Big Shootas and five bolt-on Big Shootas with 20 Shoota Boyz in it
>You will never again be able to give Burnas to anyone who can buy a Big Shoota or Rokkit
>YOU WILL NEVER AGAIN FIELD WARLORD NAZDREG UG URDGRUB
Why does GW hate us so? Why did they let kelly touch us with his dainty, eldar hands?
>>48028591
Because the devs don't play Orks, because the Orks aren't spess muhreens (or eldar). So they made the Orks into "Codex:See who which opponent can get the highest kill-count against you!"
>>48028810
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehJI2w67-EE
answer - it's dead
>>48000601
>gw devs are thoughtful and diligent
>analytical to a fault
>utterly devoted to quality
Crikey anon, do you even punish good deeds?
The devs themselves freely admit that they give zero shits and feel entitled to write what they want, when they want - and have embraced this methodology since 3rd ed 40k when the promised Codex Squats failed to materialise because - in the words of Jervis Johnson - no one felt like doing it. Only when they get wind of a marketing boner for some new CAD sculpt, will the devs all hide until Jervis corners some poor bastard trying to sneak-in a bathroom break and hands him a dreaded Brief. Then, the rest can all relax again and taunt the 'lucky' boy as he angrily hammers-out the bare minimum of copypasta and Bazooka Joe 'wisdom' necessary to satisfy his boss so his penance is complete and he can get back to his Slacker Sinecure as quickly as possible. How else can Kelly be so good at Eldar, yet suck HIV-positive donkey dick at Chaos?
What went wrong? This.
This is how we end-up with shitscribble like CM and Orks - not some system of measured, Solomonic judgement. Just good, old fashioned ignorance and apathy from people who would rather be doing ANYTHING else. Why should they know or care if the book's any good when they're done? They'll get paid the same either way.
What went wrong was, people suck.
They will fuck your shit up, even if you straight up give them money.
Every fucking time.
>>48000601
>Orks just happened to be in the "codices need to be toned down" phase, or as I call it, the hangover phase.
Nigga what?
Youre one of them "Pretend to play 40k" on /tg/ people arent you?
Thats objectively not true at all.
