Is the Imperium truly beyond negotiation? Were they ever charitable or at least tolerant of other species who clearly had no intention or means of attacking them?
Yes. Sanctioned Xenos exist, once in a great while a whole species gets sanctioned and individual commanders aren't above cutting a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of truce with some species.
>>47928918
Wow, when you look at the two ships compared like that, the Star Trek spaceship is really, really efficient. Interesting that something so small could absolutely destroy the 40k spaceship.
>>47928978
kind of like "tiny, fluffy xenos president signs treaty with enormous cyborg wearing a tank decorated like a church" sort of deal?
>>47929011
Nearly any ship is more efficient than the one that uses more metals and fuel than several major cities and relies on teams of slaves to load cannons.
That being said, a cloud of lasers, shells and torpedos constantly being flung in the general direction of a ship even as advanced as the Enterprise D would certainly give the helm and the shields a hell of a time.
>>47928918
If "technically we want to kill all xenos, but these guys are mostly harmless, so we just ignore them as long as they don't start shit and we have bigger enemies to deal with" couns as tolerance, the yes.
That's pretty much the standard policy of dealing with xenos. The Imperium is surrounded by enemies on all sides so, even with how mindbogglingly vast it is, they simply don't have resources to exterminate every xenos race they find. So if the xenos in question aren't threathening nearby Imperial sectors, and the planets they control don't have anything that would make them prime colonization targets, they're usually left alone while the resources that would be needed to exterminate them are used to deal with marauding Orks/DE/pirates/whatever.
>>47928918
The only ones that they could negotiate with, the Eldar and the Tau, both consider themselves superior. Even if you made a truce or the like, eldar will still kill your men and attack your planets because their psykers predict good things in the future if they do so, and Tau will never stop trying to convert your men to the greater good.
That hasn't stopped some treaties from being made, however. It's vague to me, but I know in some novels or another, there has been mention of agreements between the Tau Empire and the local Imperial lords about peace treaties, borders, no-fly zones, etc., like the Neutral zone between the Federation and the Klingons, if my memory serves.
Similarly, there has been the occasional peaceful contact with the eldar for the purpose of sharing supplies or information to aid the fight against mutual enemies.
Keep in mind, and at the risk of attracting /pol/, that Imperium/Eldar relations are like White/Black relations at times, where there may be peaceful agreements between France and Ethiopia, but not between France and Somalia, despite the two sharing the same race. Same deal with the Imperium and Craftworlds.
>>47928918
I imagine there are enslaved Xenos worlds out there living under appaling conditions but at least still living. Especially on the fringes or under Rogue Traders who have legal right to interact with Xenos even on equal terms.
>>47929076
What if the xenos keep sending them gifts? Trying to appease them?
>>47929011
Between void shields and tens-of-meters-thick futuremetal armor, I'm honestly not sure the Enterprise D could meaningfully damage an Imperial flagship like that. By the same token, though, it seems unlikely the Imperial ship would be able to easily hit the Enterprise with its apartment building sized macrocannon shells. It'd be like Man Vs. Wasp.
>>47929109
"its a trick! Burn the gifts before they destroy us all!"
Or if its a Rogue Trader. "Oh we need a lot more gifts than that, keep it coming Xenos."
>>47929135
>While the Rogue Traders weren't looking, the Blood Ravens took forty gifts. That's as many as four tens. And that's heresy.
>>47929099
Then why doesn't the emperor becomes the Tau(s?) greater good?
>>47929068
>That being said, a cloud of lasers, shells and torpedos constantly being flung in the general direction of a ship even as advanced as the Enterprise D would certainly give the helm and the shields a hell of a time.
Can't the Enterprise move at like ten times the speed of light
I don't think hand-loaded shells could keep up a meaningful barrage against an enemy that can dodge them all with just the autopilot. I mean, I'm pretty sure 40k lasers are piloted and hand-cranked.
>>47929156
Every fucking time.
>>47929159
Ethereal pheromone-based mind control. No really. IIRC it was an Imperial Armour book that mentioned that, from the perspective of the Tau themselves.
Then again, all publications in 40k are treated as in-universe, meaning they can be fact or fiction and nothing and everything is canon.
Ignoring that possibility, it's again because of the Ethereals. They have a good position at the top of the Tau Empire, guaranteed by birth. There's no reason to give that up just for the chance of peaceful relations with the Imperium.
>declare the Emperor as the Greater Good, akin to the Techpriests declaring the Omnissiah to be an aspect of the Emperor
>get stripped of power by the Adeptus Administratum
>centuries or more later some puritanical Inquisitor decides the Tau'va are a degenerate species that must be purged
>the Tau Empire no longer has the power to defend itself since it's been sending its men off to fight in the Imperial wars.
The Tau haven't exactly been threatened by a major imperial offensive in a long time after all. Like how Andorra or other microstates were able to continue existing because no one cared enough to take their land and titles away.
>>47929268
So if I get my fanfic technically published about the real origin of the Primarchs being the result of the Emperor masturbating into a jar and losing it on his goopy white fluid storage planet, it's canon?
>>47929317
Canon in the sense that it could exist as a book in 40k. Whether anyone chooses to believe it is up to them, but unlikely.
>>47929189
Imperial armaments vary from cannons to plasers to plasma cannons. They're also not generally aimed, the ship just fills an area a few hundred yards wide with fire and assumes that to be sufficient.
>Ten times the speed of light
That's actually pretty slow by Warp Travel standards.
>>47929365
>fills an area a few hundred yards wide with fire and assumes that to be sufficient.
But space is big, so that's not sufficient for anything that can maneuver like a Star Trek vessel with its seemingly reactionless impulse drives that let it glide through space as if it was just falling toward its destination.
>That's actually pretty slow by Warp Travel standards.
True, but it's pretty trivial for Trek vessels to go in and out of warp. Take the Picard Maneuver, for instance. One moment you're targeting the ship, then one abrupt warp-skip later, and maybe he's behind you.
>>47929365
>>47929443
>just fills an area a few hundred yards wide with fire
You're off by a several orders of magnitude, buddy, because as the other anon said, space is really really big. Distances of several hundred thousand km are considered knife fight ranges by Imperial ships. Unlike Star Trek vessels that seem to consider a few hundred meters to be long range.
>>47929523
Actually knife fight range is literally knife fight range in 40k space battles.
>>47929523
But much of the hypothetical armaments of 40k warships would be near useless at ranges like that, while there's no reason Trek's weapons should be so short-ranged other than that you want both ships on-screen together for visual effect.
Both of those just highlight the fact that pop-SF writers can't into scale.
>>47929593
Boarding actions are done by torpedoes and transports.
The actual descriptions of the battles in the text itself is in the hundreds of thousands of kilometer ranges, and that's considered close range.
Ironically, space combat is one of the things 40K actually gets the most "correct" in that it accounts for many variables that other settings don't.Unless you're World Eaters, then you do whatever the fuck you want
>>47929645
>Unless you're World Eaters, then you do whatever the fuck you want
Or Tyranids. Hive ships have thousands-of-km-long tentacles with barbed tips that sucker onto enemy ships, poke holes in them, and shoot acid and tyranids into the holes. Even in space they try to hentacle you to death and eat your face.
>>47928918
The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.
>>47929011
>star Trek anywhere near 40k
All the nerd-debates forums that calculate out firepower and shielding figures from novels, TV seires, etc put 40k in the gigaton range while Star Trek is in the kiloton range, megatons at most.
A 40k escort could plow through fleets of ST ships without so much as losing shields.
>>47929068
Effectiveness wins wars, not efficiency. Efficiency implies poverty.
Isn't the Enterprise and almost all of its iterations "science vessels" or "exploration ships"?
Why are they so heavily armed, then? Is the Federation telling the entire galaxy that they are "totally not an army, guys, just well meaning and REALLY well armed scientists"?
>>47929979
>Is the Federation telling the entire galaxy that they are "totally not an army, guys, just well meaning and REALLY well armed scientists"?
Part this, partly that they are far enough ahead on tech that their exploration ships can go toe to toe with other races' dedicated war ships.
>>47929979
The Enterprise is the Federation's flagship. It is the best in the fleet. The Federation doesn't have dedicated warships (at least not in the older series). Its ships are all multipurpose.
>>47929979
The Federation is an American expy, like the Klingons are early-Russians and Romulans are late-Russian/mid-Chinese copies.
"We're here for peace but end up kicking ass with technology-ex-machina" is their MO, just like "prime directive except when we don't feel like it" and "bow down before your morally-superior cultural overlords."
>>47929645
Could the Imperials use their teleportarium to send stormtroopers/space marines on the Enterprise? Would Star Trek shields stop 40K teleportation tech the way void shield does?
I know nothing of Star Trek
>>47930108
Star Trek rules are clear: no teleportation through shields.
>>47930139
But 40K teleportation involves tossing people outright through the Warp. I'm pretty sure that Star Trek shields don't block extradimensional effects as a matter of course.
>>47930108
To add to this, do ST shields block kinetics? If I recall, all starship weapons (and weapons in general, if I recall, down to handguns and stuff) are energy based.
>>47930176
Yep, ST weapons are energy based because kinetic stuff is basically useless versus shields.
Unless you can bypass them somehow -- in Voyager there was an enemy that used torpedos in temporal flux that skipped back and forth in time, so they could jump back before your ship was there to fly through the space where your shields were going to be, then hop back to the present where they were inside your shields already. It also made them hard to just shoot down, which is another thing ST phasers are crazy good at.
>>47930255
The answer, as always, is the humble Nova Cannon.
Nothing quite says BEGONE like a 15,000 km wide explosion of plasma (or WARP TIME, RIP AND TEAR, if you happen to have Vortex rounds).
The thing about all this is, technology in Star Trek works exactly how it works in 40k. Its fucking magic and it works however the writers need it to work to resolve the plot.
So arguing about which is better is kind of silly. Though the ship that's 20x bigger probably has the advantage for obvious reasons.
>>47929011
>the Star Trek spaceship is really, really efficient
The Enterprise D once spun out of control and exploded because another Federation ship accidentally grazed its starboard nacelle.actually it happened many times because it was a time loop episode but nevermind that
>>47930152
On the other hand, 40k shields block 40k teleports.
>>47930439
Turns out nacelle-on-nacelle contact is a terrible thing. Most ships have smaller, much better armored nacelles, but Starfleet's ships have exposed nacelles because they have ramscoops mounted in them to power the ship's fusion reactors with hydrogen. You'll notice that ships like the Cardassian Galor class don't have exposed nacelles because they substitute toughness for cruising capability. The one Federation ship without the exposed nacelles, the Defiant class, is designed as an escort, and thus it can rely on the ship it's escorting/the station it's based at for hydrogen supplies.
(Yes, Star Trek ships use antimatter for the warp core, but they also have fusion reactors)
>>47930343
>Doyle vs Watson
It's perfectly feasible to calculate firepower from observed showings. And the result of those calculations is that 40k ships have firepower hundreds to tens-of-thousands times greater than Star Trek ships.
>>47929614
>there's no reason Trek's weapons should be so short-ranged other than that you want both ships on-screen
Sorry, but you're not allowed to pretend bits of the setting don't exist as shown. Trek ships often fly past each other firing phasers (and missing) at ranges far below hundreds-of-km. You have to live with that.Also, my dad could beat up your dad.
>>47930571
>40k shields block 40k teleports.
Some fluff has shields blocking attacks by displacing their force into the warp.
>>47930255
That's because kinetic weapons in Star Trek are incredibly weak.
Meanwhile in 40k a Macrocannon Broadside will punch holes in continents and erase cities. They'd just brute force their way through shields, like they do with everything.
>>47930857
How can they be so strong if they need several impacts to fuck up a city sized ship? Check mate space catholic nazi
>>47930785
>Sorry, but you're not allowed to pretend bits of the setting don't exist as shown. Trek ships often fly past each other firing phasers (and missing) at ranges far below hundreds-of-km. You have to live with that.
That's exactly what I said. There's no good reason for it to be like that, but shots of ships flying past each other strafing each other with phasers looks better on screen, so that's how Star Trek weapons get used.
Your post is really weird, since you seem to be agreeing with what I was pointing out, but in a really aggressive and argumentative way, while also attacking a position I didn't take in the first place..
>>47929076
The problem with that is how feudal the Imperium is.
Some planets and systems might conserve resources, or be involved in a larger front. But some populations might be gripped by anti-xenos mania that will drive them to exterminate a peaceful species, or worse, they might actually deal with xenos like the Tau and make use of abhorrent technology.
The Imperium is just a little too piecemeal for even a standard policy.
>>47930910
It's because 40k numbers are clusterfuck of made-up-on-the-spot asspulls that weren't checked against anything else.
Trek's slightly better since they have series bibles and stuff that writers are supposed to check their numbers against, but in the end it's not better by much -- Trek still has tons of stupid asspulls for how things work.
>>47929919
>Efficiency implies poverty
Thanks for the laugh, Lockheed-Martin.
>>47929614
Why would the 40k armaments be useless at those ranges? If that's considered close range to them, then obviously they aren't useless. And using the shitty arguement of "they're close for the shot" is not a valid reason to extend the range of startrek weapons. Face it, in terms of damage output and survivability, 40k outclasses startrek. Now if they WERE to actually fight, there would be insane amounts of ass-pulling through techno-babble and techno-magic on both sides.
>>47930989
Can't afford our wares? Cry harder and remember the USA bought ~180 F22s, ~170 F35s, and is on track for thousands more...while Russia is working on their fifth or sixth prototype T50.
>>47930914
Welcome to 4chan! Where stupidity is a choice.
>>47931009
>Why would the 40k armaments be useless at those ranges?
Because they're used for firing at massive city-sized vessels that take ages to turn and have the agility of a giant brick? By the time your sublight projectiles arrive, the Trek ship is gone. Light speed weapons would still be useful, but all the other weaponry would just be futile.
Because those ranges for combat with those weapons are pretty ridiculous in general, and will only be workable if your ships are likewise ridiculously slow and massive.
>And using the shitty arguement of "they're close for the shot" is not a valid reason to extend the range of startrek weapons.
I was saying that Trek weapons stated ranges are ridiculous. If you read how photon torpedoes are supposed to function, it's pretty clear the weapon ranges are there to support what happened on-screen, because it doesn't make sense that this torpedo has a range that the merest shuttle could laugh at.
The point of all that is that this whole argument is a matter of picking which numbers and things you want to use, and trying to figure out what would realistically happen is almost meaningless, because it depends on who's writing it and what ground rules they decide upon. You can push it either way just by picking which contradictory bits of the lore for each franchise you want to use and which you want to throw out.
>>47931125
No, anon! You 'mericans just used CHINESE money for to buy them shiny new weapons. They ain't yers - theys belong to china!
>>47930910
>How can they be so strong if they need several impacts to fuck up a city sized ship?
Said ships are explicitly designed to resist them.
IIRC, something like 40% of a 40K ship is just straight-up armor. The rest is hull space and superstructure, which is also reinforced with armor to be incredibly durable.
Ship battles in 40K aren't won by destroying ships outright (though that does happen often enough to be a valid tactic) but won by killing off so many crew that the vessel can no longer function. You can't brute-force your way through a 40K ship unless your ship is significantly larger than the ship in question.
>>47929523
Star Trek fights occur at at ranges varying from hundreds of kilometers to practically touching, but much like in 40k they're always visually depicted as being practically touching because that looks better in action scenes.
>>47931279
From what I've read in novels, at least Imperial ships can be incredibly resilient and keep limping on even with barely any crew left remaining and death being absolutely certain. When you remember how fucking fanatical humans can be in 40k, it's not surprising that you could force men to work at their utmost under horrible conditions, with death all but certain.
Besides, that doesn't make sense for all ship battles - Tyranids can just keep creating more crew, so to speak, and Necrons aren't going to be hampered by that sort of loss. While Eldar ships would hate taking losses, they're also flimsy though a well-placed shot will cripple them, assuming you land it. And Orks barely care if their ship functions, as long as there's a way to fight.
>>47930910
Because 40k ships can have armor as thick as a building, or even thicker. All made of a mixture of plasteel, adamantium, ceramite, and other wonderful bullshit materials. Additionally they have void shields which shunt all energy thrown at the ship into the warp until all the generators overload.
>>47931125
>F22
poisons the pilot, incredibly overdesigned and extremely expensive
>F35
gets rekt by 50 year old planes, Pilot can't see what's happening behind him
Nice airfoce you got there burgers.
As an example of how ridiculously short Trek weapon ranges are compared to what their tech routinely does:
>Take photon torpedos
>strap one or two onto engine from Runabout
>Hit enemy vessels from several light years away
>>47931229
>Because they're used for firing at massive city-sized vessels that take ages to turn and have the agility of a giant brick? By the time your sublight projectiles arrive, the Trek ship is gone. Light speed weapons would still be useful, but all the other weaponry would just be futile.
>Because those ranges for combat with those weapons are pretty ridiculous in general, and will only be workable if your ships are likewise ridiculously slow and massive.
40K ships aren't slow. They move at a significant fraction of C, and their fights can be effectively like warp strafing, only constant. The only thing 40k ships don't do well is turn.
>>47931486
Sure, but when I'm talking about space combat, "slow" doesn't mean in absolute speed, but how quickly you can alter your velocity. Going at a fraction of C is impressive (unless that's just your stock entry velocity due to coming from an origin point within a different reference frame), but if you can't alter your course then you might as well be standing still for targeting purposes.
>>47931125
They have twelve platforms senpai.
>>47931860
Congratulations, only half of them will be cannibalized for parts by vodka-soused mechanics!
In 2000+16, America zerg rushes you.
>40K ship can't hit the Enterprise
>the Enterprise can't damage the 40K ship
the eternal battle between elephant and fly
>>47932323
Nova Cannon is AOE
>>47932475
Does it have a blind spot? Because a Trek ship could use its ability to warp-skip short distances to get into the 40k vessel's blind spot and then stay there indefinitely with its better acceleration.
>>47932690
Generally there is always a great many guns pointed at you no matter what angle you are in relation to a Glorianna class. And not necessarily because they are being aimed at you.
>>47929919
imperium torpedoes are at least 610 gigatons, trek photon torpedoes are something like 65 megatons, so getting hit by an IoM torpedo is like getting hit by 10000 photon torpedoes at once for the enterprise (I might have fucked up a 0 there)
>>47932860
>imperium torpedoes are at least 610 gigatons
That's downright ludicrous, you know that, right? Like the writers just picked the biggest, craziest number they could imagine for a torpedo to yield, then doubled it.
>>47933183
40k's a parody setting and all the numbers used seem deliberately absurd, from spacecraft weapons being way too high to the way that every gun used by people would be utterly outclassed by commonly available firearms now.
>>47933183
No. Ludicrous is Nova Cannons, which are petatons-exatons.
>>47932860
Except that about 20 meters of a material that's the equivalent of WW2 era tank armor can withstand Imperium navy weaponry. So in fact it's no where near that strong.
>>47933236
>40k is a parody setting
This hasn't been true for a long time. They started drinking their own koolaid back around fourth or fifth edition. You are correct that their ground tech is hilariously weak by modern standards, pic related.
>>47933484
Now, pic related is actual satire. This one sources back to first edition, back when it had the Rogue Trader tag on it.
>>47933474
That's no longer canon, the Forge World book was re-issued and that information was cut out. The Tanks are also quite clearly much more powerful than modern equivalents. A baneblade once got hit by a MOAB that created a massive crater and had enough energy to fling the Baneblade up into the air by about a hundred feet. The crew didn't even suffer an injury and the tank just drove off like nothing happened.
I think we're ignoring the imperiums secret weapon, not giving a fuck and doing it anyway.
>>47933183
>That's downright ludicrous, you know that, right?
Well, they've had 36,000 years or so on the Federation, so their tech is prooooooobably gonna be a bit more potent.
>>47931469
If only some of what you said was true.
>>47932846
What's the deal with that pyramid with an eyeball above the Ultramarines cruiser?
>>47934082
The ancient alien Illuminati orchestrated the battle. Duh.
>>47929365
In a tactical battle, Star Trek has pretty LOLhax advantages when it comes to other settings.
Namely, they can fire while in warp. Your odds of hitting an FTL target with a sublight weapon are literally astronomically unlikely. If they used it intelligently, they could pretty much beat most other settings in a purely naval battle. If they were tied down in a defensive war and you assaulted their planets, however, the IoM would win hands down. 100,000,000 to 1 china vs luxembourg.
>>47933604
How would a crew not suffer injury from being bounced around like that?
>>47931302
Good thing 40k is hundreds of thousands of kilometers
>>47934798
Shock Absorbers straight from the Machine God.
oh look, it's another thread where two tribes of nerds fling shit at each other while each claims that they're superior to the other.
>>47934798
You shouldn't expect any kind of realism whatsoever from 40K.
>>47933957
Instead of all of it?
>>47929011
NOW HEAR THIS ALL MEN MAN YOUR BATTLE STATIONS
The most accurate representation is the Enterprise avoiding the guns of the Gloriana right, but in order to do that it would have to be "close" Perhaps close enough for Thunderhawks to Sortie out and board the Enterprise. The Flaw of the Enterprise is its lack of small ship defense.
>>47935216
>Lack of small ship defense
Does anyone have that gif of the Enterprise wrecking a bunch of small ships because phasers are instantaneous?
>>47929011
I would love to see a scenario like this played out.
This is awesome! The immovable imperium against the irresistible federation.
Dance! Dance! Dance!
>>47935239
But how small are those small ships? How thick is their armor? Thunderhawks a space tanks and it takes a lot of fire (Relatively) to take them down.
>>47928918
Ork freebootas regularly work with (And often betray, but not always) the imperium of man.
>Hail them Mr. Worf
>My God... They are all...Borg?
>>47934850
Beautiful, isn't it? It's pure, unrefined, shitposting. Like the ancients used to do in time immemorial.
>>47929159
He's a little preoccupied at the moment.
>>47930139
Except Borg.
>>47928918
>Is the Imperium truly beyond negotiation?
Hardly.
>Were they ever charitable or at least tolerant of other species who clearly had no intention or means of attacking them?
Still are. Just less fun to focus on that than grimderk mcedgecool. It happens.
The whole 'fuck aliens' thing was the Emperor being pissed off at xenos who had taken advantage of the age of strife to prey on Mankind, races that had pretended to be friends then backstabbed the moment humans weren't shit-kicking galactic powerhouses.
During the Great Crusade, he personally spared a few races that impressed him with how well they fought against him.
>>47935262
I know, right? I like both settings and am enjoying the back and forth.
>>47928978
>>47929076
>>47929099
I like to think there are many loopholes and secret "agreements" unknown to the vast majority of the imperium, where non-hostile and useful xenos are reclassified as a host of grey zone categories even by Imperial standards.
I'm talking about relabelling them as non-sentient or extreme human mutants, or stellar phenomenon, or just placing their homeworlds in quarantine zones.
>>47929011
>>47929645
>>47929919
Lol Star Trek is pathetic.
40k ships are fucking wanked out and have insane power levels as evidenced by the crazy shit they tend to do in the fluff and have to deal with. Hell their ships are so tough they can withstand repeated rammings with kilometer size enemy ships all the time.
The Enterprise probably couldn't even withstand a ram from a Jeep Grand Cherokee
>>47934798
Do you even PRAISE THE OMNISSIAH?!The Baneblade was designed in the dark age of technology by AI super computers. It's simple enough for peasants to drive and maintain, but includes inertial dampers to reinforce the armour.
>>47937144
Actually, while fuckhuge and thus relatively powerful, the 40k ships, just like nearly all other tech in 40k, are vastly underpowered for their size and mass.
Well, you can't really expect otherwise when large chunks of them are religious structures and whole sectors of what should be tightly automated systems are instead cavernous slave quarters...
However even then, they are not nearly as bad at being what they are as their fighter and bomber complements. That is where things really fail. In fact many other settings shuttles or fighters, in a run against a 40k vessel, would range anywhere from "destroy the core" to "fleetkiller stage"
And yes, the Enterprise can stand a ram from a jeep, among many other things. The best example of its resilience can actually be seen when it... of all things... crashed and broke. A less-than-controlled re-entry into a planet by the saucer section was literally a crash you could walk away from. The hull was ruined, but the soft insides (people) were picking up the pieces soon after.
That's some pretty fucking good protection.
>>47931486
Also their rates of fire are "three men and a bombard" grade.
The lances and macrocannon batteries have RoFs measured in dozens of minutes.
That is one of their biggest drawbacks against basically every other universe: other settings vary between "Modern battleship weapons in space" to "mass-produced-starfighter weapons start in teraton range" with a bias towards weaker-than-40k-capitals, but in nearly every case, even if weaker, it's in exchange for being a minute fraction of the size, and having several hundreds of times the rate of fire.
It's so bad that most 'wave-motion-gun' superweapons fire several times faster than any capital weapon in 40k.
>>47931476
That's half-assedly explained in-universe: producers wanted battles to be done at short range, so other than weapons fired against known trajectories (like that cardassian planet-buster in a voyager episode) everyone's mobility, electronic-warfare and other defensive capabilities are so high that if you're not within a light-second there's just no point in even trying unless you're aiming at a moon, and most combat has to be done within a fraction of that too.
It's a testament to the turn-speeds of 40k battleships that they can hit eachother at several hundred thousand km, because at that range even a .01% deviation on your aim at 200k will easily be off by over 10km.
>>47935216
It's Flaw is that it's primary function is deep space exploration first, combat well past 2nd in a culture that promotes xenophilia and diplomacy.
40k has the edge by virtue of being insanely militaristic.
>>47932860
Actually, while direct annihilation of the antimatter onboard a standard photon torpedo would be about 64.5 megatons, they're also stated to be mixed/doped(something we do with fusion warheads in real life) to explode equivalent to a 100 cubic meter antiduterium pod. That's a compressed liquid 'slush', equivalent to over 600 gigatons as well.
Quantums are double that, Gravimetrics more than triple, and the latter could destroy something equal to a small planetoid except armored. An equivalent explosive charge in power was said to have an 800km radius, but much like nova cannon warheads, it was made to 'spread the love' as much as possible.
>>47933422
Nova Cannons create a "small blast template", which means the explosion is around a dozen kilometers; enough to engulf several ships. That should put them roughly 4-5 times the power of a photon torpedo, but given its size, rate of fire, rarity and "target a general area, maybe a small planet if it holds still" accuracy, not much better a weapon.
>>47938860
>Nova Cannons create a "small blast template", which means the explosion is around a dozen kilometers; enough to engulf several ships.
Do you realise that in BFG (the tabletop, not the vidya), the ship occupies a tiny dot on top of the stand, and the model is just for show? The base represents an area into which things become dangerous for the ship, and torpedoes etc can begin homing in: a few thousand kilometers.
A Nova cannon shot effects an area of multiple thousands of km, and does so with a blast capable of simply annihilating an unshielded vessel. It's called NOVA for a reason. 40k is wack, yo.
>>47938616
Yes, but the "fuck all of you" size of 40k ships means that even if you damage have of the ship there is still enough people around to end your life. Also a strike cruiser crashes on a planet and only 650 serfs and 7 marines died. The rest are fine and get the ship flying again with the help from another ship that had the part they needed.
You hull half of the enterprise its done.
>>47938708
I also think the fluff refers to Macro Cannons as rapid fire (I'm going to assume more like ww2 battleship RoF) what you have to remember is that much like a ww2 BS IoM/40k ships have lots of smaller guns that would be more than effective against the Enterprise.
The Tactical Cogitators of IoM ships would just fill a continent sized area around the Enterprise with cannon fire.
>>47939869
I just wonder how many meteor showers/extinction events happen on distant planets because of all the missed shots.
>>47939910
Space is big, shots travel light speed or slower, an even in 40k most rocks are unihabited. So very few.
>>47939869
True. Ships are covered in many small turrets that are used for intercepting smaller targets, such as torpedoes and strikecraft at "short" ranges of merely a thousand km. They would definitely be able to hit a Trek ship (mostly by volume of fire), but whether they can penetrate shields is questionable.
>>47939910
Surprisingly little. Some macrobatteries use timed fuses to explode right as they pass the target. Some macrobatteries use plasma that disperses over time. Lances suffer from dispersion over interstellar distances. Torpedoes would self destruct after maybe a month to prevent capture. This is not to say that a missed shot doesn't cause problems but they're usually pretty minor.
A bigger issue is space wrecks. 40k spaceships are too big to destroy outright and are often massive enough to have a degree of gravity. Unless someone goes out of their way to reclaim and refit these ships they'll often drift aimlessly for centuries.
>>47929132
The E-D could use its warp drive to transform itself into a missile going at 10* the speed of light, which would certainly destroy the Glorianna on collision, but it would be a mutual kill.
>>47940093
And that's how Space Hulks happen.
>>47933484
>Conventional steel and ceramic inserts
Wait what? I always heard that a non-trivial amount of Leman Russes are made out of RHA instead of whatever Durasteel/Neosteel/Spess metal everything else is made of to explain how their tendency to get wrecked by WWII-era AT weapons ("That was a monkey model!"), but something expensive enough to warrant a demolisher cannon would at least get a proper chassis?
>>47940053
Volume of fire would overload the shields before the enterprise could do enough damage to kill the ship.
My plan as the 40k ship would be to wait with both broadsides till the Cogitators say the Enterprise is point blank in one of the arcs and just fire everything.
>>47939910
Well seeing as Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bitch in the galaxy, I imagine quite a few
>40k VS Star Trek again
Didn't the Enterprise once grab a planet with it's tractor beam and shake it until it gave up?
>>47940380
U wot?
>>47940380
Well Star Trek is dumb, I recall when my father was nerding the fuck out during Father's Day after he got an Enterprise from the original series model.
My point is that in the original series it took about a week to cross the Galaxy, then in voyager it took them generations or some shit.
Startrek is basically a traditional Sci-fi mixed with Cowboys while 40k is a space opera, both are silly.
>>47940455
>40k is space opera
What
40k is "everything is as terrible as possible" dystopia first and foremost, with "EVERYTHING IS HUGE AND AWESOME" wankery a layer below that.
>>47929132
I'd be honest and say the Gloriana would just use its point defense weapons to give the Enterprise a little loving.
>>47929011
You'd have to consider the philosophy in a battle and the timing.
If it was a first contact the fed ship would waste time with 'we come in peace' while the the Imp would lay into them & if the fed ship survived the first salvo (they probably would since sensors would detect them arming) they'd withdraw while sending apology messages about violating their territory.
If the Fed ship was ready to throw down? And was willing to spend the time to nibble the Imp ship to death? I'd give them an arguable edge but its not accounting for surprises Imp ships could pull out of its ass.
A full blown WAR would be damn interesting to see gamed out.
>>47933693
This guy makes a very very good point...
>>47931469
Its is.
F15's and F-16's can do everything the F-22 can and still outperforms the F-35.
In all the only difference in today's modern Fighters and the best ones from yesteryear are the electronics.
>>47940161
That pic is from like the 80's, anon. It's WAY out of date.
>>47940327
SERVICEMAN ANON, WHAT IS NEWTON'S FIRST LAW?
>>47941998
Imperium doesn't go after non-hostile humans right away, even if they have xenos crewmates (though that is pretty much inevitable).
Yeah, a competent Trek crew could nibble an Imperial ship to death, the big X factor is the warp.
>straight-up psyker mindfuckery
>Fed ship gets sucked into the Imperial ships's warp-wake, and has no gellar field
>Imperial ship gets fed up and warp jumps, effectively untrackable without psykers or in-universe knowledge
>>47930914
I think he just misunderstood what you were saying and interpreted it as "Star Trek ships actually have really long range. It's just short for the TV show."
>>47942343
I punch the guy that punches me.
>>47938860
bro, BFG was supposed to be about 10,000km to 1 cm. The base size isn't the ship size.
>>47928918
That doesn't seem like it's to scale. Battleships should be "only" 9-12x the Enterprise (D)'s length.
BFG fluff puts them at 5-6km, and during the Horus Heresy there were probably some longer ships. The -D is about 650m.
>>47929099
Exactly, Eldar does keep Chaos Artifacts for the sole purpose of implanting a cult in a "Just in case" manner if the monkeigh gets too uppity or it is part of the prophecy. So if the Tau does something the Eldar didn't like, a couple of their Gue'Va is getting some "gifts"
>>47928978
Well said.
The Imperium will by default exterminate any race it encounters, just on general principles. Here are some situations where it won't:
1) The race is too powerful to eliminate.
2) The Imperium is too weak in the region (same thing, really). Mainly this justifies the existence of Rogue Traders, who work to improve Imperial power in a region (and gather intelligence about xenos). Eventually, the situation will have changed enough to make a crusade viable.
3) There's some common enemy that's the higher priority.
4) The race has some capability that's too valuable to ignore. This is very infrequent-- someone in the administratum or some Inquisitor has to be the one to stick his neck out and commit heresy by suggesting a policy of tolerance. Even if it's in the Imperium's interest nobody wants to be the guy caught saying something other than "purge the xenos" or "bide our time before purging the xenos". Again, rogue traders. You let them do the dirty work and then just overlook it.
5) The race is simply overlooked by the administratum due to a paperwork glitch. That saved the Tau in their early development.
So you see, Imperial tolerance is purely a transactional phenomenon. Purely driven by expediency.
One thing they'll NEVER do is leave alone a race purely because it's not a threat. To the Imperial ideology, that's just an opportunity to cheaply eliminate filthy xenos, risk-free. So fluffly smooshypie bunnypeople will be annihilated unless there's some cold-blooded, compelling reason to spare them. And at that, this forbearance will only last for as long as absolutely necessary.
>>47935650
>During the Great Crusade, he personally spared a few races that impressed him with how well they fought against him.
Did he? All I've seen in the novels is innocent (and guilty) races get slaughtered, along with noncompliant humans who also didn't do anything to anyone.
>>47941052
Arguably, that makes it a space opera.
The setting means far less than the stories and the rules are inconsistent.
>>47929919
>Effectiveness wins wars, not efficiency. Efficiency implies poverty.
That's why Germany won WW2.
>>47928918
>Is the Imperium truly beyond negotiation?
We do not negotiate with xenos
>go in thread expecting many interesting Imperium-Xeno interaction discussions and scenarios
>get star trek
I remember a mention of a minor xeno race in the thrid edition rulebook (I think).
Exploration team goes on a planet, comes back enchanted by the xenos' reception. Captain then puts his best uniform and goes down too, and is horrified by the xenos' savagery. They go back to orbit, exectute the first team, and put quarantine beacons in the system.
It seems to hint that the Imperium is friendly until it has determined that your extermination is furthering its goals.
>>47929645
>Ironically, space combat is one of the things 40K actually gets the most "correct" in that it accounts for many variables that other settings don't.
Lateral gun ports as your primary weaponry is "correct"?
I don't understand why people stick with 40k.
At all. Or even defend it like its worth even
the 3 minutes to say X 40k ship would win over
Y federation ship.
1. There's no consistency in 40k.
Space Marines are normal proportioned
6ft tall men. Then there roided out 7 1/2 foot tall
cartoon proportioned supermen.
2 There is no consistency in weapon damage.
Imperial Guard laser rifles are flashlights.
Next there dropping Chaos SM's 1 shot 1 kill.
Another- Plasma Cannons unleash the power
of a sunburst. WTF? How would they just not
explode taking several football fields worth of
territory along with them? How could the
cannon contain the detonation?
SM's are veterans out a thousand battles.
Tried and tested, and capable of besting
any creature or hoards of creatures individually
and also capable of dominating continents in
small detachments-.... By blindly charging
into hand to hand combat, nearly every time-
because they always run out of ammo.
Lets not forget the in your face communism.
Lets root for the Imperium, because you need
a permit to have children, live in a hive city and
never see the light of day (which is a real
thing btw)
https://www.youtube.co/watch?v=mZhI9vvZ2Wo
And human wave tactics that reduce life
to Soviet standards.
Oh and the open satanisim, The bleeding
eye of horus, The Pyramid of all knowledge
on mars, the 666 Emblazoned on Erebus's
shoulder paldron in the HH collected arts
book. The battle of Molech where Horus
attains his power (a demon from the bible
children were sacrificed in fire) The Blood
Angels, home planet of BAAL.
And lastly those prices baby! The fuck you
pay me attitude of GW, that you battered
house wives keep paying for.
What an awful hobby.
>>47944575
Your bait wasn't nearly as good as the second comment bait. Step up your game, yo.
>>47944785
state facts, be called a troll. The
Games workshop delusion is real.
![humanadvisor1[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/yXpM4ud.jpg "humanadvisor1[1].jpg")
>>47935324
Even bloodaxes regularly work with imperial forces. They backstab them in the end since any other way would be unorky, though.Bloodaxes are the tsundere of 40k, copying everything the guard does then stomping them as much as they can
There were mentions of an official budget to bribe the blood axes in the old Ork and Squat Warlords book.
>>47930571
I suppose they harmonize the shields with the Gellar field generator to prevent boarding, or something equivalent.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure taht even without shields the transporters would have a hard time beaming stuff past the decametres-thick armor of an imperial ship.
>>47944819
>>47943161
>Ahem, yes, my exarch, in his infinite generosity, wants you to have this *cough* unholydaemonicbladethatlaysyoursoulbarebeforetheImmaterium *cough*, I hope you can find a good use for it, as far away from here as you can
>>47943041
>>>47928918 (OP)
>That doesn't seem like it's to scale. Battleships should be "only" 9-12x the Enterprise (D)'s length.
>BFG fluff puts them at 5-6km, and during the Horus Heresy there were probably some longer ships. The -D is about 650m.
Cruisers are 5km or so. Battleships if I remember rightly are more like 8km. That there, as the tiny text says, is a Chapter Flagship, i.e. a Space Marine Battle Barge scaled *up*. (20km does still sound a bit big. But it's not totally out of all possibility.)
>>47944829
There's a solution to Occultists you might
disagree with...
>>47944880
Actually, update on this following some curious Googling, it's not a Chapter Flagship, it's a *Legion* flagship. Only 18 ever made, for the Great Crusade, all heavily customised (the Smurf one, naturally, is 6km longer than all the others - compensating for something?) and all destroyed in the Horus Heresy or shortly thereafter. Also, oversized *even for Imperial ships*. So yeah, most IoM ships aren't remotely that big. Hell, your average frigate or raider is only 1km or so long, which makes it on the Enterprise's scale
>>47944971
A Cobra Destroyer, the smallest independent vessel in the Navy, is 1.5 km long and 300 m across. That's over twice its size.
>>47945256
"Twice its size" is a lot more reasonable than "thirty or forty times its size" for stuff like "could these ships fight in any sensible fashion in the first place or is it Man vs Wasp?", though
>>47944971
>all destroyed
of course god forbid something as cool as that managed to make it to 40k
>>47945285
But that's like the entire military and aesthetic change that happened as a result of the Heresy: things got scaled down and divided up to be less balls to the walls OTT glorious and dangerous, because it turns out concentrating too much power into the hands of a select few militant dickheads very nearly ends in the Chaos-fucking of all mankind.
>>47944343
>Lateral gun ports as your primary weaponry is "correct"?
Alongside ventral, dorsal, and bow weapons, yeah.
40K ships basically blow past each other at incredible speeds, so a broadsides is very common when fleets exchange fire. They still have tons of weapon ports all across the ship that can fire in multiple directions.
![['avin a giggle].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6S8UhzW.jpg "['avin a giggle].jpg")
>>47944575
>mfw your incredibly poor understanding of the setting.
Isn't Trek weaponry hilariously weak? If 40k shields can tank 40k levels of gunfire, why would anything on the Enterprise even touch it?
>>47941998
Wait, if a good portion of the armaments on an imperial warship are loaded and operated manually, how would the Federation ships detect that? X-ray sensors or something?
>>47945277
Flagship vs destroyer say a lot to me about power levels.
The mainstay is the 5km Lunar Cruiser.
Isn't star trek's technology stupidly advanced? As in, Clarke's third law levels of advanced with handheld disintegration beams, teleportation which turns people into energy and reorganizes them back into matter, machines which essentially pull whatever you ask them for out of thin air and so on?
>>47943433
>5) The race is simply overlooked by the administratum due to a paperwork glitch. That saved the Tau in their early development.
The Tau were supposed to be exterminated since "nothing of worth was perceived in their continued existence", but the fleet sent to cleanse and colonise their world was destroyed by warp storms which sealed off the planet from the rest of the galaxy, then the Age of Apostasy happened.
>>47945839
>"nothing of worth was perceived in their continued existence"
And they were right.
>>47944823
>Anyways, I'm pretty sure taht even without shields the transporters would have a hard time beaming stuff past the decametres-thick armor of an imperial ship.
As far as I recall nothing is shown to stop Star Trek teleporters but shields and interstellar distances. There's absolutely no reason to believe that there's anything that doesn't stop 40k teleporters that would stop Star Trek ones, which are proven to be considerably more accurate and reliable.
>>47945743
Yep, Trek wrecks everything.
>>47946206
Too bad 40k shields stop teleportation and their teleportation shunts you through another dimension, eh?
>>47945524
Incapable of responding to any of my statements.
Defending a shit company incapable of balancing
its main money making game.
Picture related.
>>47944971
They weren't all destroyed idiot. The Sons of Horus retain theirs, as do the Iron Warriors, Death Guard, etc.
The Imperium will exterminate you as a matter of course unless it'd be too much trouble or keeping you alive would be beneficial for some reason.
Otherwise, the best you can hope for is slavery, and only of those of you who are needed.
>>47928918
Turned out plenty of them had means and intention after all. Enough of that and you stop trusting people.
>>47928918
It's GloriaNa, with one N, stupid ignoramus.
Hey why don't we addStar Warsto this debate?
>>47946206
>As far as I recall nothing is shown to stop Star Trek teleporters but shields and interstellar distances
Are you kidding? Plot radiation or EM interference or thick enough rock has routinely stopped ST transporters, or worse, created evil clones or killed people in horrifying ways. The damn things are unreliable death traps.
>>47944575
>Space Marines size.
They deal with aliens monsters, demons and abominations beyond reality.
>Lasgun.
While it IS the weakest weapon in the setting, it can tear apart the flesh of its target. It happens that almost everyone else use decent armor.
>Plasma Cannon.
There is 1/6 chance of misfire because Imperium technology sucks and/or is forgotten. But if it can turn that big bug in chunky salsa in one shot, its worth the risk.
>Marine charge.
This a setting where the normal melee weapon is a Chainsword. Also they are enemies that for some reason can stand hundred of bullets, but their armor can't deal a good saw in the face.
>Communism.
That's the Tau, ya git. The Imperium are Space Catholic Nazis. It's a Grimdark setting.
>Satanism
Deamons exist, and people who deal with them with their own methods. (Which tend to backfire)
>Prices
Most people who play the Tabletot game are Adults.
If I made a mistake, please correct. I am kind of new on this universe.
>>47945743
Yeah, each shot of one of those tiny handheld phasers has the capacity to vaporize a human being, which requires a power output pretty close to a ton of TNT. And that's just a single shot, those things can hold a lot more than that.
![[CITATION NEEDED].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/EEONBqk.jpg "[CITATION NEEDED].jpg")
>>47944575
>I don't understand
Protip: Lack of comprehension suggests stupidity. Ad homming strawmen confirms it.
What an awful troll.
>>47928918
>truly beyond negotiation
[citation needed]
>>47948286
You did a good job explaining it.
Only thing I would comment on is that plasma guns don't have a 1/6 chance of exploding, it's much lower than that in the lore.
Cruch!=fluff.
>>47945591
pretty much
And then Tzeench turned a ship into demons because 40k is silly, but the federation had a specific anti demon shield frequency to prevent it, and them the doctor cured Empy's bad case of the shits and everything was solved forever.
It's all techno-magic-bullcrap all the way down, any discussion is entirely meaningless outside of a "fixed" context.
>>47940053
If the enterprise is engaging at warp speed, the IoM will literally never hit it because it's moving faster than the projectiles.
>>47950795
Shirley the IN has never fought such a thing!
Except every form of Necron Raider.
>>47948286
>There is 1/6 chance of misfire because Imperium technology sucks and/or is forgotten
the "overheat" mechanic is purely game balance, and a relic from a time when game balance was actually a consideration
in-setting, it only happens when someone is continually firing on high-yield. Plasma weapons have lower power levels that can be fired repeatedly without the need to cool down or risk overheat.
Interestingly enough, it's the older mark plasma guns that didn't have those safety features. Mk-1 plasma could only be fired on high power, and always carried the risk of misfire.
>>47951038
Necron Raiders, upon seeing a fusillade of Lance batteries aimed straight at them, do not have the option of hitting full reverse, moving faster than the lasers, and then turning off out of the trajectory.
The Enterprise does.
>>47943935
Except Germany wasn't efficent. Nazism and Fascism were seen as efficient until the 70s or so for some damn reason, mostly due to Italy - not Germany, mind, Italy - and one small truth about a train.
Otherwise, it was a complete wreck; from infighting, cross-service branch rivalry, and overlapping functions; and if there was any real efficiency to the Reich, the world would be a lot different today.
>>47951128
Didn't Hitler actually ENCOURAGE infighting as a fucked up form of social darwinism within the government?
>>47951092
>Necron Raiders, upon seeing a fusillade of Lance batteries aimed straight at them, do not have the option of hitting full reverse, moving faster than the lasers, and then turning off out of the trajectory.
Yeah, they do. Read Fall of Orpheus.
>>47951128
Anon, are you doubting superior Prussian engineering?
>>47951531
It must take real pooper pain to make an image about people having the wrong kind of fun.
>>47929019
More like, "tiny fluffy xeno president kisses the very ground the enormous muscle man wearing a church tank walks on in hopes he won't stomp out their entire species"
>>47929645
More variables, like why multi-kilometer long stick ships can't work.
owait
>>47930152
In Voyager in the episode "Equinox" the shields prevent incursions by extra-dimensional aliens.
>>47945511
In that case, use turrets instead of gun ports.
Ther's no way going around it, imperial ships are designed for 2d fights, with gun ports on the side, dorsal turrets, and anti-planetary weaponry on the belly.
2/3 of a sphere aren't covered by anti-ship weapons. And that's terrible.
