Why do so many people here in /tg/ don't like skirmish wargames?
Is it because the really low model count? Is it because you don't think they're strategic? Is it because you like Warhammer/40K too much?
Not trying to bait or get a 40k hate thread or anything, just really asking for your honest opinions.
I myself have played a LOT of wargames, from WHF, 40K, Flames of War, Field of Glory, Infinity and Warmahordes to SoBaH, LOTR SBG, Battle Companies, Mordheim, etc. And I find that whenever someone starts a thread about skirmish-level games, there are some people who love them and some people who really hate them.
What I personally feel is that sometimes it doesn't feel that much strategic, mainly because most skirmish games don't really offer good scenarios and instead the game turns into a big mess in the middle where there are no tactics involved but throwing the fucking dice. The truth is, this doesn't have to happen, and there are many games out there that avoid it completely.
>>47907192
And also, following on this question or topic, what do you feel is the IDEAL number of miniatures AND units in a game?
For example, Warhammer 6th edition usually had around 80-120 minis per army, but around 8 units (talking about 1500-2000 points). Nowadays it has around the same number of minis, but MUCH less units, sometimes I see people with 4-5 units in 2000 points games.
And also, how do you like your minis organized in your games? I suppose it has a lot to do with the 'genre' of the game, if it's a skirmish game based around scenarios or a big battles game, but do you like having your minis organized in units or acting alone?
Bumping with some images of skirmish wargames
When you're playing low unit count games you're often relying a lot on not getting fucked over by the dice and losing a unit you really needed 5 mins in.
It's like how bows were in the lotr skirmish games(the older rules anyway I haven't played in a long time). Fucking useless in the hands of most races but once every hundred games those goblin archers would accidentally kill Aragon on turn 2 and make the other player fling his models off the table.
The other problem is terrain, skirmish games tend to rely on the idea there will be things on the table to get in the way of LOS that you need to negotiate but the average player isn't going to just have mountains of stuff at the right height for it. You're often just going to be flinging down whatever trash you have to hand most of which will either be 5 times the size of the models or a 5th of the size. If you want good terrain you either spend ages building it or shell out for the stupidly expensive premade stuff on the market.
>>47907192
>Is it because the really low model count?
This should be a pro. Wargaming minis are damn expensive.
>>47907440
Yes, there is some truth in that, although I can say that the same thing will happen in Warhammer sometimes.
For example, playing 9th Age or 8th edition I don't remember, I witnessed a guy who lost 3 units of Lizardmen due to a routine panic test (caused by Khemri's skull catapult) during the first turn of the game.
I mean, whenever something comes out of just ONCE dice roll, anything can happen. That's why most of these games have mechanisms to stop that.
For example, killing Aragorn would involve Moria orcs to hit him on 5+ (let's assume he's without cover), and then wounding on 6s, or 6s and 4+ THREE TIMES and then Aragorn needs to fail all of his Fate tests.
I know, it can happen, but it's pretty fucking difficult.
On the other hand, sometimes those things are what are remembered the most. I'm sure that if a Moria player does that, he'll remember it for the rest of his life.
Once I charged a Dark Elf unit with my unit of Bestigors, during 6th edition, and hit almost all of my attacks, but then proceded to get ten 1s out of ten dice. It was magnificent, we laughed a lot, even though I got fucked pretty hard after that.
True about the terrain, if you don't have a lot, then you can't play them properly.
Although I'd say, I'd really love it if massed battle wargames included a bit more terrain than they do. It's pretty depressing to see 40K or Fantasy tables with just 2 token hills and a small rock in the middle. Same goes for Warmahordes, nobody uses fucking terrain in that game. It might as well be a card game or use counters instead of miniatures.
>>47907192
I'm probably one of the people you're wondering about and I can't explain it myself. I just can't really motivate myself to play a skirmish game. I'd rather just play WMH which is a lot of fun for me. And the weird part is that in theory I love everything games like Malifaux do, but in practice I don't really enjoy them.
>>47907213
>what do you feel is the IDEAL number of miniatures AND units in a game?
I would have to go looking for the citations, but I've heard that the typical person can manage between 6 and 10 elements tactically. Real world militaries are arranged with this in mind, though sometimes it is seen every other organizational layer instead of at every step.
In a wargame, a skirmish game is defined by those tactical elements being individuals, while the larger scale games see those elements become squads, platoons, or even larger. You may have more than 6-10 models on a 40k table, for example, but they are grouped by mission and you can and do change your own scale of focus when needed.
>>47907290
The white dwarf published LOTR warband campaign was absolutely brilliant, and the accompanying battle reports too
>>47907488
I don't wargame but this was my first thought.
>>47907530
Anyone happen to have a PDF of this campaign?
>>47907192
i don't think they suck, they just don't really scratch the kind of itch that i get when i wanna play plastic army men in space
>>47907493
>I'd really love it if massed battle wargames included a bit more terrain than they do.
That's a result of several things. Terrain is another transportation challenge, represents another set of skills to look good on the table, and it slows down play.
In addition, open terrain was preferred in real classical warfare. A General would try to arrange for just enough unusual terrain features to constrain his opponent in some way while allowing his own troops to succeed, while also allowing him to observe and thus control his troops.
The God's Eye View of most wargames only changes that equation a little.
I like having fucktons of models, it gives me something to do. Also I like plastic models, metal monopole models are gross.
Also there is something to say about common games, no one wants to spend money on a game that no one plays. At my flgs they have warhammer Weds, mtg night and pathfinder nights, starwars night but no infinity or malfuax nights.
>>47907600
Thirty years of GW Kool-Aid on display...
Until GW came along, customization was not a common feature of wargames at any scale. The crowd that did military modeling to that level were not generally gamers, and the gamers had a battalion of Napoleon's best to paint, so please no curve balls.
You might see a manufacturer produce different poses for a unit. GW/Citadel even started that way, not embracing the idea of customer customization until long after the RPG market changed how miniatures were sculpted and manufactured.
Oh, and most of the modern 40k crowd have no idea that their favorite "mass battles" game is still a skirmish by military definitions, and that 40k started as what would now be seen as a skirmish game.
>>47907563
is this PDF?
http://www.lordsofmiddleearth.com/Battle%20Companies/Battle%20Companies.pdf (18MB)
>>47907657
>Also there is something to say about common games, no one wants to spend money on a game that no one plays.
An entirely different argument. As much as the big organized play companies want you to believe otherwise, most gaming remains a private hobby.
>>47907440
>The other problem is terrain
i like how MERCS handle this, giving the option to play on 2d surfaces (pic related), even is not as cool as play on a ruined city board it very practical because of MUH card movment and SNAP! to coverhaven't play yet because NO ONE IN MY COUNTRY is interested on this game
but i'm stuck trying to make enought terrain for Frostgrave/Mordheim and i don't even know how i will transport it
>>47907615
>>47907720
As above said 40k is still technically a skirmish game, you need to go up to epic 40 k to start getting the numbers for a pitched battle.
As someone who played a lot as a youth against an imperial guard sperg who would only play pitched battle, table end vs table end games 40K is a much much better game when there's lots of terrain to contend with, the focus goes from cheesy tactics or abusing army list advantage to actually positioning your units and planning your advance/compositions. There's also a reason to use less efficient solutions that fit the map rather than oh look he has tanks better break out the lascannon heavy version of this list.
>>47907852
That's a pretty cool idea, it might not handle verticality well but most people aren't capable of creating terrain that allows for that anyway. Lego is another okay solution but it has a high investment cost(because lego are jews)
>>47907884
>it might not handle verticality well but most people aren't capable of creating terrain that allows for that anyway
it's hard to make a building with enough room to justify having a third floor and end up just with some ledge or catwalk, pic related most third floors of mordheim buildings i've seen
>>47907720
>Until GW came along, customization was not a common feature of wargames at any scale.
You see, something like that is VERY important to me. I generally like to do stuff with my minis to make them mine. Just painting them a unique way is often not enough.
Even if the conversion has no alternate rules, i like that i made them mine somehow.
People often scratch their heads at this, but I prefer pretty much any model medium over metal because of this.
plastic > resin > finecast >>>> metal
So I will prefer plastic kits like GW's over most other companies for the customizability. Lately their newer kits are become more and more monopose, and I think they are doing that for new customers, but it really isn't stopping me.
However, the odd thing, I like skirmish games like SoBaH because they do scratch the small skirmish itch, and I generally prefer to use monopose reaper minis with them. Maybe its because of SoBaH's profile creation system which allows me to build model profiles from scratch, or maybe ive just been searching for a game to use all my bones minis with. But I do love both skirmish and mass battle games equally.
>>47907884
>Lego is another okay solution but it has a high investment cost(because lego are jews)
Not as much as you might think. Lego keeps its value years after purchase, and I don't think they've been keeping up with inflation.
>>47907884
>As above said 40k is still technically a skirmish game
In a military sense yes. In a gameplay sense, no.
>>47907812
Yes the hobby remains private, but the gaming side isn't. That's the problem. You can build an army for a game that you are oh so proud of, but it's really only shelf decoration until you find someone else to play with.
>>47907192
>Why do so many people here in /tg/ don't like skirmish wargames?
They don't?
I always got the impression that it's exactlyn what people here like.
>>47907884
>actually positioning your units and planning your advance/compositions
How do you do that in 40k, exactly? The mechanics don't really seem to support it.
>>47908070
You don't. The only positioning in 40k is getting/denying LoS.
>>47907852
Fuck MegaCUNTgames. Those lazy fucks still havent realease MERCS 2 yet. Oh right I can pre-order it rught now. THANK YOU! NOW I CAN FINALLY PLA A GAME THAT'S BEEN DEAD FOR THREE YEARS, BECAUSE YOU CUNTS DIDN'T DO SHIT FOR THE GAME!
>>47908104
That and keeping melee away/defending any chokes you've made. It's still enough to stop the game turning into a shitfest where 2 sides ram themselves into the other or sit there blasting or hope their units live long enough to ram themselves into the enemy after being blasted for 3 turns.
>>47908240
>That and keeping melee away/defending any chokes you've made.
So shooting at stuff. Got it.
>>47907192
Are you kidding? Or ople gush over how Mordheim was the tits all the time.
>>47908034
Private in the sense that people do not play at stores, not "solitary".
And I paint more in a group setting, so there is that.
The idea that all gaming happens in stores is another GW invention, and one they've bought into so thoroughly that they are convinced that most of their customers aren't actually gamers.
I've played GW since the early 90s.
I NEVER had trouble converting metal models. I also don't think their models are really that posable. Sure, you can rotate the hips and arms a little bit, but not really, and they end up looking the same.
I'd rather ten monopose, unique metal models to 10 bland plastic ones whose waists are turned .8 degrees to the right differently.
Throwing more antecdotes on the flames.
My FLGS has an Xwing night, a Kings of War night, an Infinity night and a WM/H night. Usually with tournaments of each every few months.
They stopped doing any GW nights after people stopped coming. There are 40k tournaments every so often but there have been so many fights over rules that the owner is considering cancelling them.
>>47908315
Not anymore bro. That's the old CEO talking. The company is taking a new direction with community involvement, free rules, and such. It's like a different company in the last year. They still have a ways to go and prices are still ridiculous, but at least they're headed in the right direction.
I like skirmish games.
>>47908431
Hopefully not too little too late.
I feel like 40k is really out of hand, and there is no way to just show up and play a fun pickup game anymore.
>>47907657
>>GROSS
someone's about to get smashed
>>47908463
And there is a ray of hope. Rumors is 40k is getting discussed for a revamp. Not an end times then aos, mind you, but a reduction of rules.
One source is saying he ralked to a couple of the game designers, and their topic of discussion was how bloated 40k has gotten.
So maybe sometime next year we might see a streamlining of 40k rules. Not to the complete reducton of aos, mind you, but that direction is the right one. I am pretty sure points will remain a part of it.
>>47908463
>and there is no way to just show up and play a fun pickup game anymore
>anymore
That was always the case. Balancing was always based on how much you were allowed to hurt your opponent's feelings.
>>47908666
>Balancing was always based on how much you were allowed to hurt your opponent's feelings.
Heh.
Balance can mean a lot of things. Rock, Paper, Scissors is an internally balanced system, but if you pick scissors when your opponent picked paper there still is no way you can possibly win.
Ideally a game system gives each player one rock, paper and pair of scissors each, so they can decide how to play the game. That means it's a symmetrical game in terms of tools available to you for your problem solving and what makes the game interesting how you put those tools to use.
wh40k, is such a bloated huge game, that has no clearly defined scope that it's impossible to do that though. Especially since the game is not updated all at once, but one codex at a time.
In 3rd and 4th edition the game at least clearly revolved around infantry and tanks. Now you got fliers, superheavies and fortifications to take into account as well.
Now having fun is not the same as playing a balanced game though. So while it may be unbalanced it may still be a fun experience is both players cooperate to make it a worthwhile experience, instead of trying 'to hurt one's feelings'.
Fair play is the magic rule here. If you play footballor socceryou're more likely to have a good time if you kick the ball instead of each others' shins.
>>47908394
This. There is only so much you can do with kitbashing and creating a multipose squad always means compromises in design.
>>47908791
The problem is 40k is so unbalanced you can ruin someone else's fun without intending to.
Or have no fun because your army is so poor there is little chance of winning. Most people rightly have less fun in that situation.
>>47908482
Please, I can't handle all that metal.
>>47908950
Fair point. 40k was never well balanced.
I just took issue with the tone of the remark about hurting somebody's feelings.
Sounded a bit too much like the page 5 Warmahordes attitude for my liking, which I believe is detrimental to the experience for everybody involved in playing a game.
>>47908984
>page 5
Worst attitude to hit the games ever. I really hope mark3 does away with it completely, because it's really shitty. What's even shittier is people take it too literally or misinterpret it.
>>47908984
Back when you had to ask permission to use the major bullshit though you could show up with 2000 points and rolls some dice. Now you have super heavies and fliers who completely wreck you if you aren't prepared. It's definately worse.
That's why my whole group converted en masse to Infinity and XWing over the past few years.
>>47909035
Yeah, WMH and it's attitude suck a fucking lot.
WMH is also a card game instead of a miniatures game but that's another thing
BTW; I'm OP, I was asking because I'm currently designing a skirmish wargame and wanted to see what you guys thought about it.
What would you like to see in one, the scale and all. In fact I've got like 3 games in the burner, but wanted to see which one would be more likely to receive acceptance by the community.
>>47908482
>that fireman axe
Ugh, my autism.
>>47907192
I like mass battle wargames and skirmish wargames all the same.
>>47909106
Don't. There are already too many skirmish games on that market. Your little game will just be a drop of water in an ocean. There can be a problem with market oversaturation.
If it's more about your setting and range of models, just pick a current game and publish your seeting book and model range.
If it's a game of 'bring whatever from your collection' then don't still, because it's been done before, a lot.
Bring back Gorka Morka and Necromunda. Maybe Inquisitor too.
Best GW games of all time.
>>47909384
I heard Gorka Morka will be remade soon. Might be wrong, though.
>>47909384
The specialist games department has been slowly working on it. We know bloodbowl is coming back, and we got lost patrol and warhammer quest. This list clearly says necromunda is one. Dont know of the fate of gorkamorka, but i seriously doubt inquisitor will be returning.
At least if it does i hope they go to 28mm. But it's moot, because inquisitor what GW's attempt at making an RPG, and FFG has taken that mantle.
>>47909140
The 112 Rescue is golden
Warhammer 40k Death Watch games are the tits though
>>47909426
forgot pic
>>47908254
>being this dense at tactics
>>47908482
>Entire army of the frenchmen
>Not the Russians or Americans
>>47907192
I don't really think that many people dislike them. Most games with their own model range are "Skirmish" games. It's the best format for 28-32mm figures after all.
>>47909035
>>47908984
>>47909083
Warmahordes is a miniatures wargame made for and by the kind of people who really should just be playing computer games, but realized that they still want to be able to win games by being dicks at the listbuilding stage.
>>47909484
MERICA
>>47907720
>Thirty years of GW Kool-Aid on display...
monopose vs multipart is a fairly legitimate reason for someone to avoid skirmish, not just "hurr da GW koolaid"
The only other multiparts I can think off off hand are a few historical miniatures and frostgrave.
>>47909583
Warhammer 40k is a miniatures wargame made for and by the kind of people who really should just be playing with Legos, but realized that they still want to be able to sperg out by being autists at the game playing stage.
>>47909339
Hmmm but good rules still stand out as better than worse ones.
Don't you think it could be a good idea to at least try?
I mean, it's easier than getting a whole new model range
>>47909612
Explain how these being multipart makes them dynamic or unique?
Would you be worse off if they were monopose, but better designed and more interesting to look at?
>>47909612
>a few historical miniatures
The entire Perry range, the entire WGF range (including the dank skellingtons), most of the Warlord range, etc.
>>47909649
>Would you be worse off if they were monopose
To some people, yes. The monopose GW character models are already avoided, because they just don't like that shit
>>47909612
If you don't field 200 models of the same type, monopose metals are just fine.
Converted metals also look better, most of the time. Yeah, metal is harder to convert than just slapping plastic bits together, but the result is usually a way nicer looking model, because the metal parts are usually more detailed.
>>47909689
Tactical Marines are practically monopose, though.
Look at any given tactical squad. There is always
>Bolter Up Guy
>Bolter Down Guy
>Bolter Middle Guy
Usually, in duplicates. Every fucking Missile Launcher Marine has the same pose, every Heavy Bolter. Seargants only vary depending on wether they have a bolter, a pistol and a sword, or the pointyfinger.
Posability is a non-issue with most plastic models, because they start looking really fucking dumb really fucking quickly, your margin is very small.
Where multi part plastic models shine is when you have several kits that are compatible (i.e. basically Orks, Marines and Dark Eldar Lines) and the fact that its very cheap to produce mass infantry this way.
>>47909947
Converting metal competently requires some serious hobby chops. Doing the same with plastic or resin is monumentally easier.
Can you seriously not see why people might prefer models that aren't monopose metals?
>>47909947
I would actually like 200 monopose for an army.
It always bugs me when a rifle squad is loading, running, shooting and scouting at the same time.
>>47909624
If you can make a simple, fast and fun game with ltos of options and a way of balance it, it could be cool. Also I like different games for diffrent sizes, but the larger the game the simple and focused should be, the borefest of 3 hours of whfb for a fucking game with luck was devasting.
What are some good skirmish games? Aside from Infinity and Malifaux I mean. I already have my grubby hands in those particular cookie jars.
>>47910100
deadzone
song of blades and heroes
>>47910100
What are you searching? I really love SoBaH, or song of blades and heroes. Simple, you can make any unit you want and the different books can add lots of love like frostgrave/mordheim campaings, rules for loot and different terrains etc. The warband builders are very fun to use too.
>>47910015
I literally said
>Yeah, metal is harder to convert
So what makes you think I can't see it?
Also, no, converting metal does not require serious hobby chops. It requires some basic skills, like sawing, drilling and the absolut minimum of sculpting skill: Gap Closing.
Those are skills anyone in the hobby that gives a fuck about his models should have anyway, because even with today's amazing technology, many multipart plastics still look better when touched up a little with saw, drill and putty.
>>47910171
Sounds interesting. I'll give it a look.
>>47910268
I recomend it. It's a simple system. All you need to remember about the unit profiles are 2 stat numbers and any special rules. It may seem too simple, but it works on a skirmish level. As soon as you try go big battles or add war machines and monsters then the game's limits really start to come to light.
But it's a 'bring your minis from your collection' kind of game, and you can make each of their profiles from scratch, which is a cool thing. That means you stat the minis based on their appearance and it has a built in points system for it.
>>47910175
Agreed.
>>47910312
The problem is that special rules should never replace some stats.
The miniatures should have at least 5-6 stats, not that false economy. People are afraid of numbers it seems. Having "Speedy" and "Slow" as special rules instead of 10cm, 12cm and 15 cm movement doesn't make any sense.
The game is good though, but that should be modified. Same as Infinity. Too many fucking special rules
>>47908431
>the right direction
Oh? They're writing balanced rules now? Stopped pretending they're not a gaming company? GW stores are no longer 1-man asylums? They're re-opening all the warehouses and entire regions that they've abandoned? Bringing FB back - only better than ever? Stopped sucking Space Marine dick? Re-upped the forums? Restarted Bits Service? Chapter Approved is back? White Dwarf is only a dollar [cheap!] - and doesn't suck? Stopped being ungrateful cunts to the indie stores that put them on the map? Offered to buy-back every Finecast model for full retail, no questions asked? Begging Rick, Andy and Pete to come back? Posted the Thorpe x Ward sex vid to YouTube?
Cool story, bro.
>>47910402
I agree, but I dunno if you need that many stadistics. Also I thing it could go well using other dices, like a d10, to give it more granularity. Sobh is pretty great but dividing quality in another or even two atributes and perhaps giving wounds could make the game more interesting.
>>47910175
>Also, no, converting metal does not require serious hobby chops.
Compared to working with literally any other material? Yes.
>>47908431
Honestly, at this point this might be either the big turnaround, or a desperate move of a drowning man.
To actually start groing again, they need to make a lote more drastic moves than just re-releasing 25 year old boxed games at a markup, or even releasing new games at ridiculous prices under an old name.
What carries a gaming company is the loyalty and goodwill of their customers, and rebuilding that after poisoning the well for 10 years is hard.
>>47909106
In a similar position. Though its hard to get any kind of useful response around here, it seems.
>>47910531
For some reason wargames have developed a terminal fear of metal. It's really not that hard to convert, you just need a saw and a drill capable of working metal and a file helps too. And you should have those tools anyway, to better model plastic kits.
Converting a metal model is no different than working with plastic. You still cut, saw, drill, file and use putty. Cutting usually takes a little longer and the knife can't substitute for every other tool as easily, but using a knife for everything is horrible practice anyway. Other than that, there's no difference.Unless you count kitbashing as converting, I guess.
>>47907192
Skirmish games are not wargames. They are closer to board games than to wargames.
>>47910456
>Oh? They're writing balanced rules now?
This is arguable. But not many new games came out since the new CEO got into power. AoS was from the old CEO
>Stopped pretending they're not a gaming company?
All signs point to yes. Since the new ceo there has been more of a focus on the game side than before. An example would be the reopening of the specialist games and communication with the community over rules and FAQs
>GW stores are no longer 1-man asylums?
This may change. Like I said, they have a long way to go, but they are slowly working on getting things in the right track.
>They're re-opening all the warehouses and entire regions that they've abandoned?
See above
>Bringing FB back - only better than ever?
No, nor do they need to. They are working on improving AoS with diffeent modes of play and the game and setting still can develop.
>Stopped sucking Space Marine dick?
This is something from before the last CEO. They never stopped sucking space marine dick. I don't see how this is an argument.
>Re-upped the forums?
This may change. Again they have a long way to go still, but the above things they have done are showing the direction the company is headed.
>Restarted Bits Service?
Bits service is not feasible when everything is plastic kits.
cont.
>>47910701
>Chapter Approved is back?
It may come back with the new format of white dwarf. Another new ceo initiative, moving back to monthly and including more things like hobby articles and battle reports. We will still see whether its like the glory days, but it shows the ceo recognizes the weekly catalog wasnt working.
>White Dwarf is only a dollar [cheap!] - and doesn't suck?
White dwarf hasnt been only a dollar cheap for decades. Now you're just being childish.
>Stopped being ungrateful cunts to the indie stores that put them on the map? Offered to buy-back every Finecast model for full retail, no questions asked? Begging Rick, Andy and Pete to come back? Posted the Thorpe x Ward sex vid to YouTube?
Look the rest is just you grasping at straws. The bottom line is i never said they suddenly are like they were during their golden age, but I said they are headed that direction. Not everything can be the 80's again, and a lot of your benchmarks are fairly unattainable and ridiculous.
>Cool story, bro.
Nice meme, bro.
>>47910672
>Other than that, there's no difference.
Unless you want to do more than cut in a straight line. Then you need to get a dremel.
>>47910537
I agree. But all things that have been happening show they are trying, and that's much more than anything could be said during the kirby era.
>>47910672
Its mostly cost, nowadays. Plastic is cheaper, and the initial start-up cost for plastic molds have gone down.
>>47910624
I don't know if there is actually a place where someone can answer to this kind of questions. Whenever I try to create a thread like this, conversation turns into "GW IS SHIT!" "NO IT ISN'T" really fast
>>47909106
>>47910624
>>47910801
If you want to discuss the rules themselves there is a game design thread up atm.
If you want to gauge interest, you won't likely get a very representative response.
You got the naysayers that'll tell you to not even bother writing, but they may be a vocal minority due to their brand loyality to other games.
There are a lot of small games that get played by people all over.
/hwg/ likes to talk about small skirmishers from time to time and every so often there pops up a Mordheim, malifaux or Frostgrave thread.
If you want to interest somebody on your game you need a pitch that gets to the unique selling point fast or give people the rules so they can read it for themselves.
Asking a vague question is only gonna get a vague answer at best.
Back on the topic of skirmish games, here's my current mordheim warband, currently the second strongest in the campaign I'm playing with some pals, also I should be picking up the last bits I need for my necromunda gang on Friday, skirmish games are alive and well within my group of friends at least
>>47910902
>square bases in skirmish games
*shudder*
>>47908559
>streamlining it even further
jesus fucking christ, streamlining is the exact problem 40k has
everything feels the fucking same
everybody has ignores cover now
everybody needs to play mobile tankhunters because lascannons suck ass
how about adding rules to make armies actually play differently? let us stack saves, so a guardsman in cover isn't as tanky as a space marine in the same cover
give armies actual special rules and then DONT give it to other armies. Chapter tactics is ridiculous bullshit and that's coming from a SM player, sudden bursts in effectivity should be Ork territory
>>47910934
>playing mordheim with round bases
>go back to AoS skub
>>47910950
I don't think you understand what streamlining means. All the problems you cited are equalization, not streamlining.
>>47910801
Yeah, it doesn't help that the board was created as a GW containment board.
>>47910885
I'm a regular over at /gdg/, and while its really useful at times, its mostly RPG players. Rarely any good wargame discussion. And there's little coverage in people's actual interest to an idea.
>>47909106
DON'T: make it rules light. No one actually buys rules light systems because the can just make them up themselves in about an hour. Also they make every game a boring slog of 50% odds or you go fishing for critical situations, neither of which is fun in most cases.
DO: Use an intricate base stat line for models, so you can actually differentiate between an elvish archer and a hobbit morning star wielding berserker in game play.
DO: Make an intricate combat system. Give each player at least 5 options in a melee combat. Make the options varyingly good depending upon the qualities of your model.
>>47911002
>its mostly RPG players
I know, I've been waiting in there to discuss some wargaming since forever.
>>47911031
Gonna be the contrarian here for a minute.
There is nothing in a game I hate more than book keeping.
Complexity does not automatically equal quality. If a game play quick and feels like there is an organic flow to it I'm more likely to play than if it feels like I'm doing my taxes.
>>47910996
streamlining brings equalisation.
>We dont want people to roll so often in the shooting phase, we'll only allow one save, and no more saves on 2d6
>>47910701
>improving AoS
Who cares? Anybody who left because they killed WHFB is not coming back because an awful, insulting game now has point values.
>>47911031
Ew intricate base statlines for a model would be something i recommend to avoid. sobah may be pushing it with 2, but warhammer's signature 7 is just too much. 4, maybe 5, would be the sweet spot in my opinion.
>>47911086
>still doesn't get streamlining
>>47911074
>Complexity does not automatically equal quality. If a game play quick and feels like there is an organic flow to it I'm more likely to play than if it feels like I'm doing my taxes.
Can you name me a "Quick and Organic" game where everything does not fall back onto pure dice luck of 50/50 odds or exploiting the same two mechanics for auto wins?
>>47911121
You only have 4~12 models in skirmish. If you can't keep in mind a 7-stat-statline for 12 models you need your brain checked out.
You could fix half the problems in 40k by banning superheavies, flyers, knights and all similar things from normal 40k.
If they are apocalypse only the normal game will instantly be less of a mess. Those models should never have existed at 28mm in the first place, let alone as standard units.
>>47911139
Then explain to me how one can streamline a game without reducing the amount of uniqueness its units have.
>>47911098
Nor do they need to. As far as i've seen, a majority of AoS players are not from whfb, I found, but from other games or new gamers. AoS is doing fine without the old gamers. That's why 9th age and kow exist.
>>47911142
It's not that it's impossible to keep track of, it's that it's unnecessary.
>>47911179
For Warhammer? Maybe.
Generally? Definitely not.
>>47911074
It happens once in a blue moon. Sadly, rarely about mine.
And I think there's a balance to hit. If you take games like AoS or SoBaH as the example of the extreme end of simplicity, you can see how when overly simplifying the rules, you end up causing more problems. Models in AoS each have something like 3 to 7 special rules each, and SoBaH, while using generic special rules, is worse. I'm more of a fan of 4-6 stats and a few special rules.
>>47910784
>plastic is cheaper
Only for generic/historical minis, otherwise they're priced the same because we'll pay it anyway.
>>47911212
Agree to disagree. I find that games with too many statlines is convoluted. Not complicated, but messy.
>>47911239
I meant material cost for the producer.
>>47911142
>Can you name me a "Quick and Organic" game where everything does not fall back onto pure dice luck of 50/50 odds or exploiting the same two mechanics for auto wins?
There are games like Five Core or Turn on Turn (i think i always forget the name), which have nice intuitive activation systems that break the i-go-u-go rythm.
And Frostgrave resolves every casting of spells, every combat or shooting action with a single dice roll.
Alkemy had a really cool system for keeping track/inflicting wounds iirc.
Basically every solution that is elegant rather than complicated in the sense that it lets you do a lot of different things with the same tool instead of giving you 20 different rules for 20 different things. That kind of thing. What is generally referred to as deep design.
>>47911242
>Agree to disagree. I find that games with too many statlines is convoluted. Not complicated, but messy.
How? Example: Warhammer, or even Lord of the Rings. How is it messy?
>>47911254
>There are games like Five Core or Turn on Turn (i think i always forget the name), which have nice intuitive activation systems that break the i-go-u-go rythm.
I would argue that neither I-go-u-go nor activation systems are streamlined compared to each other.
>And Frostgrave resolves every casting of spells, every combat or shooting action with a single dice roll.
And sacrifices the possibility to model different kinds of bows or other more exotic ranged weapons.
Havent played Alkemy so I cant comment on that one.
>Basically every solution that is elegant rather than complicated in the sense that it lets you do a lot of different things with the same tool instead of giving you 20 different rules for 20 different things. That kind of thing. What is generally referred to as deep design.
20 different rules for 20 different things =/= complicated. Complicated would be if those rules were not intuitive or internally inconsistent. Throwing them out completely is foolish since allowing players to have meaningful mechanical differences in exotic units is THE biggest advantage skirmish gaming has over bigger scales.
>>47911254
Also, it's most definitely NOT deep design. Deep Design refers to exactly those 20 rules for 20 things, all linking into each other opening up 400 playstyles. What you want is
>Roll d20 + stat for everything
which is the exact opposite since by unifying you remove opportunities for interaction.
>>47907192
I honestly think that most skirmish games fall afoul of not being able to scale well.
For example, if I want to play 40k with a friend and only have a small number of units we can still play, the game can scale down to a squad-on-squad match easily enough. Then if later we get more forces under our banner we can go at it with entire platoons' worth of infantry per side.
Games like LOTR SBG, while a lot of fun, lack this ability for the most part. I mean, sure, War of the Ring does something to alleviate this but I don't honestly think its enough. I mean, sure you could try to play a larger game with the SBG system but the game slows down the more units and heroes you add.
I'm not saying that people hate those games, but that 40k and warmahordes have more replay value at that point.
>>47911380
>And sacrifices the possibility to model different kinds of bows or other more exotic ranged weapons.
It's not a sacrifice. It's a design decision.
There is a pool of soldiers each wizard gets to choose from and they are all the same. That's called symmetrical design.
Anyway the game has bows and crossbows as ranged weapons. How many ranged weapons do you need?
Aside from that, you can still get magic weapons during campaign play.
>>47911953
>How many ranged weapons do you need?
When I only have 12 models and my enemy only has 12 models, why am I limited to two? I want blowpipes, throwing knives, javelins, siege arbalests and repeating crossbows, composite shortbows, etc.
If the system were well designed, that would be possible.
Instead we both can take a guy with bow or one with crossbow, yay. Great customization options right there, really makes the warband feel like my own.
>>47907192
I like plastic, high quality, customizable scifi miniatures.
Is there a skirmish game for me?
>>47911421
All games have a chugging point where the mechanics start to break down if you take too much stuff, skirmish games usually are the ones with a lower threshold that others for it. Infantry heavy Warmahordes is the worst offender, I'd say, followed by LOTRSBG.
Rolling loads of dice is more fun than rolling one die.
Commanding an army is more fun than commanding a squad.
I've tried to get into Malifaux, but the models are so damn fiddly that its unpossibru
>>47912026
>Instead we both can take a guy with bow or one with crossbow, yay. Great customization options right there, really makes the warband feel like my own.
I don't have a problem with that. Writing different rules for a gladius, a sachs and a kriegsmesser is a waste of effort when they are all functionally swords.
That aside, if you want to bring up customization options you can choose from 80 different spells for the Wizard leading your warband, who is the focus of the game and really the most important thing about it.
Anyway I don't think that's a valid criticism towards a game anyway, since that just boils down to personal preference.
If I want to make my dudes my own I'll give this one a fancy hat, the other one a nasty scar and that one has an Iguana sitting on his back, who he believes whispers dirty jokes in his ears all the time. You don't need rules for that.
>>47912115
Every miniature is customizable if you aren't afraid of learning a little sculpting. Hacking up an Infinity Miniature and replacing heads, weapons or even bigger parts isn't rocket surgery.
>>47911252
Yeah, but you are still probably looking at 15k per mould and a damn lot for the machines, aren't you? That's probably still way out of league for most one man garage businesses.
>>47912026
Why are you conflating bad design with deliberate design choices you disagree with?
This thread is concerning me
I wanted to create a skirmish game but seems it'll be really hard to not be stillborn
>>47912680
Do you have any prototype rules done yet?
>>47912680
it's hard to make any game that's not stillborn
we're talking 99.99999% of all games are stillborn
>>47912680
Thing is: There are a lot of decent, good or great Skirmish Games out there. And people who just want to play Skirmish Games will play them. But they feel no game loyalty, they just game what they feel like at the moment.
What makes a game float above the rest is feeling and setting. A generic wargame will never become A Thing, because nobody ever identifies himself with a generic game that lacks identity. That's why Infinity and Malifaux have started to rise above the rest: They tried building their own identity, setting and feel.
So, if you just want to make a game for the sake of making a game: Go ahead. It will find its players.
If you hope to become the next big thing, you'll need to bring more than just rules, though.
>>47912788
OP here, this is totally true.
That's what I was saying about Mordheim, it has incredibly good memorable moments, and that's what people remember most of all.
Also, a really nice setting, a very distinct one.
My idea is to make a campaign-based game, because there are not a LOT of those. Frostgrave is a good one, but it's focused on mages, which I don't really care too much for, so I'm making my own.
One problem I'm thinking about is, how viable it is to make SPECIFIC factions and units without creating my own model range? At least at the start...
>>47913072
I dunno, depending of the setting guilds, temples/gods, nations...
>>47913072
Try a Song of Blades and Heroes. There's a unit builder you can use to make pretty much anything. It, like Frostgrave, is designed to use any models available that for the most part fit the rules, but while Frostgrave does this by generalising all unit roles, ASoBaH does it by having its own model creation rules, which can be collected and turned into a whole faction list to choose from.
>>47908022
You sound like someone who would enjoy Perry Miniatures
>>47907493
>>47907440
odd, I remember the lotr game rules being remembered fondly, was it really a crap game?
>>47913184
No, it is and was a good game.
>>47913136
Meh. They look like fine kits, but it's all historicals. I'm not into historical yet. I got another 15 years to go :)
>>47908419
Actually, it's pretty much the same at my LFGS. Trough there is a handful of 10-15yo that play 40k.
Biggest scenes are KoW, Warzone and Saga.
>>47913209
okay, I just google searched, looks like some of that stuff is still for sale, is the hobbit basically the same set of rules? Doesn't look like they're easy to find.
I don't play tactical wargames often due to their insufficient number of tanks. I like tanks. I want games with tanks. I find infantry tedius and boring compared to combined-arms warfare. Warhammer 40k has many tanks and so I play Warammer 40k. If I found more Dropzone Commander players or Flames of War players I would start playing them too.
>>47911150
I disagree regarding flyers. Close air support brings another dimension into the game, and brings a ton of tactical options unavailable to a ground-only army. And I like options. I'd prefer, though, that they give us more valid Anti-Air options so we aren't forced to use flyers.
As an example, I'd like it if weapons systems like the hydra were equally effective fighting infantry, or the SM hunter allowed to double as a slightly weaker whirlwind. That way, at least, we could buy anti-air models safe in the knowledge that we can use them regardless of whether our opponent brings aircraft.
Plus: Elysians are cool.
Plus: Catchans in Valkyries for that ultimate Vietnam experience.
>>47912115Necromunda.
>>47912788
I dunno man, malifaux's setting has always been pretty meh to me, but damn do i love its core mechanics. Generic systems are fine, but theres always going to be less a company can do for it due to its nature. Its also far harder to get that sort of notoriety that a company with a distinct setting and mini line has. That said there are a good number of generic systems that have pretty good popularity but thats mostly amongst Historical crowds where mini and rules don't go as hand in hand.
>>47912115
Theres some ok generic rulesets, tomorrows war and gruntz being ones I remember off hand, Osprey released something recently, in the name of the queen is steampunk that was originally a 40k skirmish, and there should be a songs of blades/heroes variant.
PLastic wise there isn't a ton, especially if you want non-humans.
How long until 3D printing is cost effective and high enough quality for homebrew skirmish games with their own model line?
The criteria for quality are dramatically lower than, say, trying to compete with Games Workshop or whatever. I'll play with mediocre models if they're cheap and for a fun skirmish game.
I don't play those games because I'm poor and can't afford the models that improves the experience
>>47912751
No, just doodles because I lack people whom to test it with
>>47912782
sadness
>>47912788
This is actually very interesting.
Investing on having an original setting and mechanics should be my focus.
>>47907600
actually skirmish games let you focus much more on each model in the hobby side, i get motivated to gs every man and make it my own and especially to put everything i have in the paintjob since i don't have that feeling that after the model i am making there will be a hundred more
>>47907852
i played mercs once with some friends, we made a 4 way free for all and made a shitty terrain with no cover, my friends barely knew the rules and didn't move accordingly. The game ended on the thrird turn because overwatch on heavy machine gunners is too good without terrain. (so many shots, it felt so good)
>>47909106
>that big ass mould line on the right
i am going to tell /wip/
I want to play skirmish warhames, I have enough model so, it's just buying/building and storing the scenery. I live in a single bedroom, so maybe if I had more room I'd be more inclined. None of my friends have enough room either and aren't invested enough to pony up. Such is university life.
It's a shame that Mordheim: CoD has AI cheating and isn't more transparent about other warbands. I want to know what happened to the Skaven warband who I just maimed! I want my victories to mean more than money and exp!
>>47909106
/wip/ here.
We are very disappointed in you regarding that mould line on the right. What would your mother say?
>>47915622
Yes, I think they could've done MUCH better with that game.
You should get two armies and try to convince a friend to play. It's easier if they don't have to spend any money on it
>>47915622
collapsable or papercraft scenery, folds down into flat shapes/sizes the thickness of paper. Storage, get a small plastic bin and some cheap bubble wrap, or just coat everything in a few thick layers of glosscoat.
>>47917049
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2087444096/pop-up-miniature-terrain-kit/description
>>47917106
JC that adorable!
>>47917351
I backed it and have the prints in color. I havent had time to cut and build them. That is low on my projects list, unfortunately. But one day.
I do enjoy papercraft.
There's no such thing as a monopose model when you're not a scrub. Have you tried gitting gud and not fielding stock models anyway?
If you're into modeling, a skirmish game may not keep you occupied for long. I thought Gorkamorka would do better because it added vehicles to the mix (a big reason why some people like 40k) but I suppose there were other issues there. Remember, Warhammer (FB and 40k) started because people had bought and painted more figures for RPGs than they knew what to do with, and asked for rules for increasingly larger numbers.
No, 40k is not a skirmish game. Skirmish games are squad-level games. 40k is reinforced platoon-level. Flames of War is reinforced company-level, and Epic is army-level. They all have their draws.
Personally, my issue with skirmish games is that so few of them have progression like GW's skirmish games did. With such small forces every mini has a name and personality, so I want to see them get better and the gang get bigger over time. I tried Malifaux, and every character had a story that wasn't my own and they were static. It didn't hold my interest.
I probably won't try any others. My gaming group doesn't want to play 1v1 games and my solo hobby time goes to 6mm army-level games. Since I hardly play, there's no progression, so it might as well be a big army that takes years to paint. (Pic not mine.)
>>47917106
>KS finished forever ago
>can't buy it from their website
It was a nice dream for a few fleeting moments
>>47918618
Yeah it sucks, I am waiting for them to go on sale because there was a couple I didn't get when I backed it. They did a couple miniatures kickstarters since and those are up.
I may have to get a print shot to photocopy some of the open ground tiles because I could use more of those.
I cannot speak for /tg/ but I personally don't dislike skirmish games.
It's just that I prefer rank and files ad massed battles.
I like the idea of a full army working together with many skilled-but-not-heroic troops.
I personally actually feel like heroes in Whfb have a little too much saying in the game and in KoW they do too little. I would love something in the middle
>>47909106
Are you planning on making any money with it, or is it just a cool fan project you will put on the net?
IMHO, the only difference between skirmish & battle games is the size of the goal:
In skirmish games, you have only one, single goal: get the treasure from the dungeon, defend cattle from wolves, house from Indians, assassinate the enemy general, etc ...
In a battle, the goal is more complicated: defeat the enemy army or get as many troops as you can to the other side of the table. There are many more options and approaches to use.
DBA had it right in one respect: 12 is just about the biggest amount of units a player can handle on tabletop.
Skirmish games, however, will usually have even less - following the army doctrine that says 5 subordinates is the top amount a leader can handle in the thick of battle - majority being capable of 'only' 3 or 4.
>>47920574
continued:
The next issue is, again, IMHO: durability.
In battle, this is done by units having lots of troops in them & being able to rally after a rout.
In skirmish, wounds are an absolute must.
So, bottom line being: I've always seen skirmish games as a part of mass battles - little slices of the big picture.
And the big picture is much more interesting.
>>47907720
>Thirty years of GW Kool-Aid on display...
Attitudes like this is probably why people don't like skirmish games. They're filled with butthurt anti-GW expie faggots.
>>47913645
From what I gather the hobbit ruleset now covers the lotr, too. you just have to find the faction rules via sourcebooks
>>47907192
What range of models are those miniatures from?
>>47914571
>How long until 3D printing is cost effective and high enough quality for homebrew skirmish games with their own model line?
Probably never.
Casting will always be more interesting for anything that it's prototyping.
>>47907725
I remember playing LOTR campaing with elves and this lacks them. Any additions to this or smth?
>>47921790
>>47907192
I think a big problem is that "skirmish" games seem to be a little nebulous. Games like warmahordes can run 30+ models, then there's games like Frostgrave or Malifaux which can be 5 or 6 models.
But I agree, I'd love to see more games with progression and linked scenarios.
>>47923036
What I mean by skirmish is every man for himself, not more than around 25-30 models per side. Ideally 10-20 models per side
MUH LOW MODEL COUNT
>>47907192
I love Mordheim, but nothing beats the glory to be had when there's 70k points worth of models on the table
>>47907884
You can buy bags of lego for a pittance at any second hand store or websites like craigslist
>>47921790
those are reaper i believe
>>47924163
while it looks impressive, what is there to do but walk forward in a straight line?
>>47921790
>>47924314
the minis in the bag are a reaper frost giant and an ogre chieftain.
The minis in the front are sculpted by tre manor. Reaper has some figures of his as well, but he also sells them under his own label at red box games and a handful of them are to be found in the hasslefree range.
I believe he has a barbarian range in the red box stuff, but he doesn't consistently offer every model he ever sculpted. Seems once a mould is broken he takes his time to replace it, if he even does it at all.
>>47924580
>the minis in the bag
*back.
damn
And I forgot to mention that you can search the Reaper catalog by sculptor.
>>47910698
That I think depends on the skirmish game honestly.
>>47918038
Id argue at this point modern 40k is running closer and closer to company level which it really shouldn't be doing. A better example of Reinforced platoon level combat would be Bolt Action.
>>47924513
this is the problem i had with warhammer fantasy and kow. what cracks me up is during the aos shitstorm, a common complaint was everything just ended up as a scrum in the middle of the board. as if that was any different in previous editions. anyway i like wargames with more movement rather than deploy and meet in the middle and roll dice until one is declared the winner
>>47924735
you and I both anon, though lately in my killteam meta we're seeing tau sniper spam which is...disappointing.
>>47924784
Taufags ruining something? Say it ain't so.
>>47924735
That's what happens when you take a wargame designed for less models and ramp up the model count, while keeping the rules and board size the same.
I miss 6th Edition.
>>47921193
So you don't think GW has been trying to re-wire gamers toward brand and party line loyalty since the 80s? That makes you a fool and a dupe.
>>47925144
Completely true. 6th edition was beautiful. Units could be big, but were usually manageable. We had around 8-9 units on the table, and battles seemed more tactical.
Now it's just "OK I use my lvl 4 mage to obliterate 30 dudes out of the 50 in your unit". And every unit has thousands of attacks and shit. It's boring.
I played with Lizards, and I used a lot of sauruses. Having 10 attacks per unit was considered HUGE, nowadays the first 2 rows attack, and then you have units with 40+ dudes throwing a whooping 20 dice at least, it's just a dice roll fest
>>47925431
>it's just a dice roll fest
To be fair, the *Hammer game engine depends strongly on fists full of dice to make the hit-wound-save progression work properly. This is why the GW skirmish games are more fun than balanced.
>>47907192
I personally can't stand large scale games. They require too much time and money for me to invest in. I would much rather field twenty or less models.
Games Workshop was the main push behind this. I had started playing in the early 2,000. The clunky rules, combined with expensive figures annoyed me. When they tried to put all of my local shops out of business, that turned me off from their games, and any other large scale wargames.
>>47915358
Råndom anon here. Make a game about sex and it will sell.. Warhumper 40k bitches" funk your way I to fantasy
>>47926244
I know waifus are a selling point
>>47926550
Waifu smack down turbo when?
>>47927065
When I feel like it.
What the fuck is this shit bait thread? There are constant Warmahordes and Infinity threads up in the catalog.
>>47918618
Pop-up stuff is pretty easy to make, Anon. Apply yourself.
>>47925264
>Breaking news: model company tries to use brand to maintain its buisness
Your original post was in response to someone who fairly pointed out that most people profer multi-part models for customizability. GW didn't invent that, but they were one of the first to the market as far as tabletop wargaming went, its natural for then to be a perennial feature of the community.
But thats besides thr point, the real reason more people don't play skirmish games is x-wing. I dont care that my tie fighter is monopose. I get a worthy ruleset, a model line that will hace updates to keep me interested and a great chance of finding someone to play against.
>>47918038
Gorkamorka, while fun, had a lot of issues. The guys at miniwargaming converted a bunch of the ruleset with current 40k rules, and it still has issues. The first week videos had a great example of that, where they ended up talking about how they were going to have to go back and change timing on some of the vehicle damage rules, because in the game, two trukks rammed each other and kept rolling swerve results, leading to them swerving back into the other trukk, taking more hits, and rolling more swerves.
>>47923036
Progression is fun, but fuck is it hard to write up good rules for it.
>>47908023
>my mom gave all of my lego away to my younger cousin when I was in middle school
My phone doesn't have a feel extreme enough for this
>>47927065
>>47915358
Even if its just doodles, would still be interested in hearing ideas.
>>47927065
Just barely-reskin warmahordes to have the wizards and or jacks be little girls
The amount of huge nigger cocks I would suck to have a skirmish game have a set of balanced rules with 6-10 factions and you use between 5-15 guys that can be played in 40-60 minutes on a 3 x 3 would be unfathomable to the human mind.
Also if the minis could not look like shit that would be fucking great. Now how bout them dicks . . . .
>>47932781
I'm working on one, but its at 4 factions with 2 more in framework status.
>>47932781
MERCS, Wyrd Wars (Mordheim fan-remake), and Infinity (though heavy on the model side at around 10-16 on average) get you in the ballpark.
MERCS is easy, Wyrd Wars is striving for balance but I'm not sure they're there, and Infinity is actually still pretty mind-boggling to build a list in though there's a lot of guides for what you should focus on.
>>47932349
So imagine an arena shooter like Quake Arena or Unreal Tournament.
Each player will control a small army, lets say 10 figures, each one is customizable like in an rpg, with individual stats rolled before hand, individual skills and equipment.
And the game play will be focused on events like Capture the flag or domination.
That is the basic idea.
The combat system is less defined because there is stuff that I'm unsure if it makes the game too crunchy or too broken. Like can a mini shoot in any direction or just the direction they're facing? Should a mini be able to evade an enemy's shot just by moving aside? if so what stats or skill influence on this?
Something I know will not get far is the ability to set traps, I can't see how it could work without a referee.
Its not much but I can't go in further detail without making it confusing or having to actually writte a prototype.
Overall is more novel than anything.
>>47932781
>balanced rules
>6-10 factions
>5-15 guys
>played in 40-60 minutes
>on a 3 x 3
I can get behind this.
>>47913404
>>47908419
All your doing is making me feel bad for playing 40k and your doing a good job at it.
Infinity - feels like I'm just placing turrets. Also I Ike pan o and the big robots, but they feel pointless and super easy to kill.
Mordheim - the d6 resolution mechanic kills it for me.
>>47932781
I kek'd
>>47933786
Yes, Infinity sometimes feels like playing Tower Defense, specially with some factions. But it's packed with action.
Mordheim is... well, it's really fun.
The game I'm making, I'm trying to keep the Mordheim spirit, but with a nicer resolution system, NOT I-go-You-go, and a little bit more streamlined in some aspects.
I think the key to those campaign based games is making the gameplay engaging and with lots of tactical options, but based around a few mechanics, so it's easy to learn and hard to master, but having a LOT of post-game options
>>47933959
Good thing tower defense is fun as fuck.
>>47933256
Oh, I remember you posting. Here's an idea, This Is Not A Test uses a system where you basically declare all you ranged attacks and then they are all resolved at the same timing. Really good way to represent actual gunplay, since it's not like most games where you can shoot someone to death before they could react.
>>47934152
Will look up into that.
>>47933786
Human beings with guns are basically turrets lol.
The big robots are super good, but are not a win button. If you use them right they absolutely win games, but they need to be supported by infantry (kinda like real combat and tanks).
>>47933291
If you enjoy playing 40k, don't let anyone make you feel bad for playing it.
Times sure have changed though. I remember when I quit 40k 5-6 years ago my gaming group crucified me for it. I got accused of trying to "wreck the group dynamic" when I started teaching people infinity.
Now 90% of them play infinity with me lol. Some of the real a holes still bring their 40k models and make snide comments but I arely see them actually play.
TL;Dr, play what makes you feel happy and screw haters on both sides.
>>47935376
Not him but I find myself getting less and less excited about 40k lately with how bad the rules have gotten. It's depressing because i have a passion for the game and setting, and its getting overcrowded with stupid shit. The lastest FAQs effort is pretty fucking pointless because it just points out the systems flaws more than it tries to solve them. I tell you, unless the next edition gets a major slimming, kinda like AoS got, I really find myself getting less and less enthusiastic about the game.
>>47935423
Yeah.
It's pretty telling when a game has very simple basic rules, and any complexity comes from special rules and/or splat books, that the system is going to get bloated quickly. Just look at D&D.
It's nice when game devs just make the "basic" rules complex enough to avoid having special rules entirely, a la Battletech.
>>47935423
Try other games.
Either you like them, which is great, or you don't and they remind you of why you like 40k.
Infinity is awesome because almost every special rules is shared across multiple models and factions, so it is easy to learn.
However, every faction has a unique feel, and combination of abilities so they are distinct.
>>47935838
Oh I'm playing other games, but I'm not looking for a replacement for 40k. I still play it when I can, and even have a tournament coming up, but I am hopeful that GW will do a decent new edition that is rumored sometime next year.
>>47907192
Lock-in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock-in_(decision-making)
Games that get big are harder to dislodge.
So I've been looking into this and it seems really interesting. Has anyone tried it?
I am a sucker for steampunk stuff, and this game has a unit builder system so you can build the stats based on the models, which I love. Reaper has a decent selection of steampunk minis too.
>>47936036
Yeah, it makes sense for there to be one game that everyone plays.
Its a Nash Equilibrium, or a Natural Monopoly.
GW had to completely blow it for any other games to gain traction, and now we are in a interesting transition process as new games rise.
>>47936714
>GW had to completely blow it for any other games to gain traction, and now we are in a interesting transition process as new games rise.
And old ones. 40k unseated Battletech all those years ago, but it never went away completely.
New is relative, of course. Warmachine is 12 years old. The SF/F skirmish+ games that are older were usually 40k pastiches, trying to challenge 40k on its own turf. Most are still available in some form, though Warzone took twenty years off, Firefight/Ion Age moved to 15mm as its primary scale, and Void morphed away from following 40k to more of a Necromunda mold as it became Metropolis.
Vor is dead as a ruleset (or maybe just resting) though the minis are still available, and Steel Legion appears dead and gone. One step worse than that is 1999, the naming of which makes it distinctly difficult to find in a search.
The skirmish SF/F that has come and gone since Warmachine launched is a substantial list as well. The Chainmail revival by WotC, Rezolution (still a personal favorite despite the clumsy rulebook), Confrontation and AT-43, Ral Partha's Crucible, and an unknown number that never really got retail penetration. Many of these games limp along as sad zombies. Some are still a blast to play.
>>47937343
Man Im still glad I acquired a whole bunch of Rezolution this year. Vor died when FASA did sadly, and the powers that be had a kickstarter that went nowhere at the dawn of the KS boom, I would think if they redid it now with better graphics it would easily make what they wanted for the first one. Void/UrbanWar/Metropolis is basically dead too with Age of Tyrants replacing it with an Epic scaled game.
Someday chronopia will return.
>>47932781
Malifaux is probably the closest there ATM. Though I still hate their current aesthetic and model design.
>>47907657
>At my flgs they have warhammer Weds, mtg night and pathfinder nights, starwars night but no infinity or malfuax nights.
I'm sorry.
>>47936096
I tooled around with it a bit when it was a free 40k skirmish game, seemed ok, can't say whats changed though.
>>47909608
How much would it cost for that amount of models?
Its pretty telling that almost everyone I talk to in the gaming community is an "ex-40k player."
>>47907192
I'm not a regular /tg/ goer anymore and so I wouldn't speak on authority, but I'd never have sad /tg/ *dislikes* skirmish wargames. There's a preference for RP and larger battles/strategy for sure, but how much of that stems from the pragmatism of their host settings is not intuitively discernable.
I don't think I've EVER encountered hate for skirmish wargames. Warhammer-esque scale games, yes, on here and elsewhere. It's just my experience, but the idea that it's an issue or concern is news to my ears.
>>47907440
The odds-scale and LotR bow stuff sounds about right. But on terrain - surely that issue just scales up further with game size? Making a lot of terrain sounds more of a pain than a little bit of it. Or is it an economy of scale thing - making a piece of terrain is about the same hassle regardless of size, so it's more bang-for-buck in terms of production?
I personally love skirmish level games.
They're affordable, quick to play, they don't tend to get bogged down in flipping through hundreds of pages of rules and they can become quite fucking tactical at times.
They're also a great incentive to start building proper terrain. And with fewer miniatures, I tend to spend way more time on them than I otherwise would have.
My only demand for a skirmish game is that it involves some form of action-reaction/interruption as well as overwatch systems, because I cannot for the life of me stomach I GO YOU GO bullshit anymore.
It makes the game a whole lot more fluid and terrain-based objectives become way more intense to capture and hold.
15mm skirmish games are the best. I've got forces for everything from the conflict in Chechnya, Star Wars. zombies and Mad Max to Martian War of Independence and Lovecraft-style horror games.
What's your favourite skirmish game?
Is Mordheim really that good? I saw some videos of it and it looked like yet another 'move everything to the middle and roll some dice'. I want something with a lot more strategy to it
>>47940742
>Is Mordheim really that good? I saw some videos of it and it looked like yet another 'move everything to the middle and roll some dice'.
A lot of that comes down to scenario design, which is easier for skirmish games than for traditional wargames, but still not particularly easy.
If there is any good reason to acquire a copy of Malifaux, it is their scenario/objective tables.
The other issue is table design, which can be related to terrain rules. If terrain is a pain to use or gives either too much or not enough benefit, it departs the typical table quickly.
"Lazy Gamer Syndrome" also plays a part in lightening of terrain. The fat guy wants to sit, which means all those neat buildings are in his way.
All of those tends to relegate terrain pieces, and particularly tall stuff like buildings, to the edges of a board. Intentionally or not, they become decoration instead of serving their intended purpose of creating tactical choices.
Mordheim is great fun, but does suffer from the GW narrative advancement issue seen also in Necromunda, Gorka Morka, and Warhammer Quest. Balance goes out the window once advancement begins.
Which is why Frostgrave limits advancement to just a couple models.
>>47940484
That's a product pic for the USAriadna box, which lists for $120 or so but can be found cheaper. The (paper) mat and (carsdstock) buildings are part of the package, as are three dice and a few other bits.
It is worth noting that while this is often described the same way as a GW "army" box, as the "core" of a force, this is half to two thirds of a typical Infinity force points wise, while 40k boxes in this price range are 10-20% of what you'll need for a typical game.
>>47940742
Haven't read the whole thread, so not sure if this has been mentioned, but I just got into a game called Infinity and have been really enjoying it.
Tohaa FTW!
>>47941013
Where do you live? Its way cheaper than that.
>>47941365
Ok, now I looked through the thread and feel like an idiot, haha
>>47908431
I'm hopeful. I mean, age of sigmar is all free rules.......free......rules.....no 100$ rulebook and 40$ army book......it's all free. I don't think people realize how huge of a deal that is for GW. In one iteration of the game they went from absurdly expensive rulebooks and army books and a bloated rule system, to 4 pages of core rules and all of them are free.
>>47907440
>tfw guild ball suffers from none of this
Game plays brilliantly on an open pitch with no terrain. And because of how the playbook results work rolling extra lucky on an attack has diminishing returns; rolling 3 successes is likely to do 2 damage, but 6 successes will probably be 3 and some status effect or board control effect.
I'm not going to say that luck isn't important, but I don't feel like luck dominates the game in any area.
>>47908022
>Even if the conversion has no alternate rules, i like that i made them mine somehow.
I like you, we can be friends.
Personally I love the heft of metal minis but generally like to save them for officers and specialists.
Looking through a variety of titles one thing that has out me off other skirmish games is the mini investment especially in fantasy/sci fi frostgrave got past this by having a unique flavour through the setting itself but also allowing players to use whatever minis they want by making the forces generic across the board and leaving the rest of the setting up- to players.
I'd like a skirmish game to better simulate fighting. Go look up "the riddle of steel". It was an RPG made years ago by some guys involved in HEMA. It does a really good job at capturing the flow of a sword fight, and the movement and tactics involved. I'd love to see a skirmish game where the fighting was like that. With only <10 guys you can afford to spend more time on the individual combat. And it would be a refreshing change from the ubiquitous "roll to hit, then roll to wound, then the enemy does the same" that pretty much every game uses.
>>47941493
Don't you still have to buy the expansion books though? Or are those free as well?
>>47941493
I don't think I would reference AoS as a positive. It absolutely destroyed our quite active WHFB community (New England USA).
>>47941726
No they arent free. But they aren't necessary for play. That's the point he's trying to make. Something like this is a very smart move for GW, so they can still make money off of something, and getting started for new players is much easier.
>>47941736
You're right. AoS destroyed many of the whfb communities, but a majority of aos players i notice did not port over from whfb, but came from other games or are new gamers.
People do not like aos because it destroyed the old world and replaced the old game, but on its own it has some positive things, especially for new players and a loose narrative. Now it's getting even better with the generals compendium that adds in a campaign system as well as a points and army building system.
>>47941726
>>47941726
Idk you can download the core rules for free, it's 4 pages. Additional rules for terrain are also free, they're another like dozen pages or so. Then each army has a "warscroll" with all the unit stats and a handful of special buffs and rules for them, usually around 15-20 pages and also free. That's all you need to have battles.
>>47941736
And more new people are playing it. I'm sure plenty of people who liked FB aren't playing AoS and have switched to KoW or to the fan version of FB 9th edition. But the free pricetag and simplicity of the rules of AoS will surely draw in lots of new people. Whether it will be a long term success is yet to be seen.
>>47941799
I can understand being pissed that there won't be anymore new fluff for the "old world", but I don't get the anger. I mean, there's absolutely nothing stopping someone from carrying on playing FB just the way they were before. Just because GW "killed" it, doesn't mean the old rules disappear, or the miniatures all disappear, or all square bases disappear, or that you can't play the unofficial updates people have made like 9th age. Like if there are 6 people who go to a certain LGS and have been playing FB every Saturday night for 15 years, what changes? They can keep playing. The absolute worst that will happen is some young whippersnappers will come in to play AoS and you might make some new friends or people to play against because they got drawn in by AoS.
>>47941857
Getting people to start an unsupported game is almost impossible. Retaining players is hard enough.
>>47940858
>implying all war bands are balanced at the start in mordheim.
The community tends to agree on a number of fixes for a reason.
>>47942317
Move on to other supported but very similar games. KoW and 9th age are picking up steam and for very good reasons.
But whfb is not coming back.
>>47941811
Aren't some scrolls locked behind books that need purchased (or the app)?
>>47942496
On the warscroll batalions, or formations. All other model and unit warscrolls are free on the website and through the app.
Even the warscroll batalions can be bought in the app, but they are super cheap so you only need to buy the ones relevant for your army.
