Would dwarves really be good fighters? Wouldn't they suffer from a pretty important height and reach disadvantage when fighting anything but other dwarves?
Where does the "dwarves are great fighters" stereotype come from?
They are often described as sturdy, hardy and brave, which are nice things to have as a fighter.
But you are right about the height thing. Reach is an important part of fighting to the point that's almost unfair to smaller people. But you could say that dwarfen fighters are almost all the time heavily armored. Long pointy sticks don't mean much if they can't penetrate their carapace.
>>47892315
It's quite simple, actually. Dwarves are all cowardly pacifists. Every single one of them. This has irked the God of War who, as a practical joke, has repeatedly incarnated as a dwarf (and, due to time shenanigans, he is almost always incarnated as many dwarves at the same time). He then proceeds to adventure abroad, being a general mockery of the dwarven race and spreading misinformation about a Norse-ish religion where warriors rule and all the cowards can go to Hel.
Repeat over hundreds of generations, and there you go.
If they can succeed despite the height / reach disadvantage, doesn't that mean they're great at it?
chimpanzees have a height and reach disadvantage compared to the average human
an average chimpanzee can still rip the latter apart though from a pure strength perspective
Now since dwarves are generally smarter than chimpanzees and can use tools, weapons and armor and martial arts, I dont see how that is even a question
>>47892315
If they are much much better smith, they can have much better armors and weapons.
Fighting against steel when you only got bronze is not a good idea.
They're also described as exceptionnally strong and sturdy.
So, with superior armor and weapons, they can rush and close in and fuck you up, because they can be as strong and heavy as you with a fraction of the height
>>47892315
Unlike your pic aren't most dwarves pretty lankey? I don't think the height difference is that huge for them.
>>47892315
They're historically defined as beings of earth and tend carry all the temperaments associated with it like sturdiness and stubbornness. And then there is the whole really good at metalworks, love getting drunk, are generally crude and hot-headed thing that came more recently.
Honestly, only the smithing and endurance are the traits that'd be applicable in a more realistic setting, but in fantasy, personality tends to define aptitude more than anything else.
>>47892315
OP that's a great question but can this be a dwarf character art thread too?
>>47892554
If chimps are so great why did we conquer them? Checkmate, Darwinists.
>>47892623
>He doesn't know about the chimpscarade
>>47892315
They don't tend to be great in the "really good with a blade" sense, they tend to be strong, tough, fearless, and well equipped - if anything, the general view of dwarves is more as soldiers, not warriors
>>47892554
Do you think dwarves would be less good at throwing shit?
IIRC, chimps absolutely suck at throwing stuff, despite their much stronger arm strength
>>47892315
From Tolkien. He introduces his dwarves in The Hobbit as sturdy, hardy fighters who wield mattocks, branching out to the more classic axe with Gimli in LotR and talking more about what tough fighters dwarves are in the Silmarillion.
In myth and folklore, dwarves are not great fighters. In fact, they're frequently overpowered by human fighters, like King Svafrlami, Sigurd, and Dietrich von Berne. In medieval romances they're even frequently mentioned as being deformed, having hunched backs or clubbed feet or something similar. Instead they're very magical, usually deal with their problems by using magic to hide and escape, make a magic item that addressed the problem, or just cursing the shit out of the humans that abuse them.
The only legendary example I can think of a dwarf who's a good fighter is the Alpine dwarf king Laurin, who shows up in the stories of Dietrich von Berne. He's noted for regularly fighting and overcoming humans, but only because he is laden with a magical belt that doubles his strength and magic armor that cannot be pierced. Once Dietrich steals the belt, Laurin is helpless against the human-sized warrior, who disables and pins him as easily as he would a child.
>>47892731
>hardy fighters who wield mattocks
Pretty badass tbqh
>>47892722
Makes sense, considering arm length and height are very important for distance throwing and power. The fact that their armor is often portrayed as being clunky rather than mobile reflects this.
>>47892787
Yeah. And, as far as I'm aware, no fantasy author before Tolkien and CS Lewis depicted dwarves as physically tough, skilled warriors.
>>47892876
And I think the key detail is that these dorfs were doing well for the same reasons the Romans could do well against the Barbarian Hordes; discipline, equipment, training, and discipline. We see them at their best in mass formations during pitched battle.
It also helps that they were often part of a coalition with Humans and elves, who could excel in other areas (light infantry, cavalry, etc), so the Dwarves only had to be one part of a larger machine.
>>47893013
Gimli and Thorin are both depicted as being excellent individual fighters as well.
>>47892554
>w since dwarves are generally smarter than chimpanzees and can use tools, weapons and armor and martial arts
That's exactly why chimpanzees are so strong. They spend less energy on "precise controling" aspect of their muscles.
You can be dexterous enough to be able to carefully manipulate things.
You can wreck shit with little control
You can't really have both.
Of course, this is fantasy so whatever, but then, who cares about the reach and height disadvantage?
>>47892315
>have "dwarf" mountain goatmen as a racethey are dwarf goats as well as goat dwarves
>they only care about mining because they crave the mineral
>hoard a shitload of supplies in the empty mineshafts because what else are you gonna use them for anyway
>build villages on slopes too steep to reach for anyone who isn't a dwarf
>everyone who has ever laid siege to a dwarf village has made up completely over the top lies about the Mighty Dwarven Warriors to hide the fact that they just couldn't reach them
>dwarven merchants help spread these tales so nobody ever gets the idea to fuck with dwarves
and that's how Baahlduin Saltaxe became famous for killing 40 knights with one swing of his axe.
>>47893013
>>47893013
True. And largely unconventional warfare; eg. Motherfuckin Smaug, wrecked their assholes.
>>47893050
Both are paragons of their people. That said they are examples of what dwarves are capable of at their best. Thorin was kinda the baddest dude in a crew of 13 bad(ish) dudes.
>>47893094
To be fair, Smaug is Smaug, he's incredibly hard to deal with
Overall, barring a handful of exceptional individuals like >>47893050 mentions, which every race gets (even hobbits), I agree with >>47893013 - in general, dwarves' strengths lie in pitched battles, formation warfare, sieges, equipment and discipline
Actually, does anyone have any pictures of massed ranks/armies of dwarves?
>>47893114
Is there any indication that they're paragons, as opposed to just competent fighters? I mean, we don't get a lot of talk about dwarvish formations in The Hobbit. Tolkien's emphasis is on A)their physical hardiness, B) their extremely good armor and C) their fearsome weapons. After that he doesn't talk much about their tactics. In the Silmarillion he focuses on their armor rendering them resistant to heat, the powerful blows of their axes against Glaurung and his dragons' hide, Azgahal's tenacity in surviving long enough to badly would Galurung and force him from the field, and finally in how fearsome the dwarves are as they bear Azgahal's body away to the point that nobody messes with them.
That all suggests that the traits Thorin and Gimli display, their skill with weapons, their strength, their endurance, are all typical of dwarvish warriors.
>>47892876
In The Broken Sword they don't seem to be bad as such. The book just makes it clear stunty guys with axes don't have a chance against elves with bows and spears in the open if they fought.
The Romans didn't have much reach with their little Spanish swords, and they did alright.
>>47893234
Hobbit pre-dates The Broken Sword too, which still gives us Tolkien as the earliest example of dwarves as great warriors.
>>47893224
same way Charlemange is a typical example of a French warrior, who totally aren't cowards btw u guis pls believe me
>>47892315
>Where does the "dwarves are great fighters" stereotype come from?
Gimli. Fantasy dwarves are mostly Gimli: The Race.
>>47893287
Granted, the kit of the great warriors we see in such instances is gonna be a lot better than average, although at the same time, The Hobbit and other sources suggest that they typically field forces who are well armed and armored.
I can only imagine the elites like your Gimli and Thorin and his companions would be much better off. You'd be hard pressed to even find a bow that would do more than piss them off because of the quality of Dwarvish work.
Afterall, their idea of a "princely" hauberk is one that's seemingly impenetrable to earthly forces. Even if they've come down a bit good look finding the creature that can actually pierce even the lesser works more widely available.
Some of the best things they have hoarded away might be that good or nearly as good.
Maybe only a Dragon's fangs or a Balrog's sword can pierce them.
So you'd be fucked if you got in a fight with an experienced, seasoned Dwarf noble in armor like that. You'd have like, blunt trauma, and he'd be kicking your ass all around the field with a good chance of penetrating or doing a lot of blunt trauma through your armor too.
>>47893287
To be the Devil's Advocate, the dwarves contested against goblins, who were stunted and bow legged.
>>47893402
>Charlemagne
>French
You either successfully triggered me or built a comment that was wrong on as many levels as possible.
>>47893594
Francia eventually turned to France, anon. Yeah, he was probably born in what is currently modern Germany or Belgium, but he was still the King of the Franks. Franks, French, they are pretty closely related.
How do you like your dwarves?
>>47893464
Except Thorin wears no armor for most of the Hobbit, and his most impressive feats (holding off three trolls at once, landing an ace bowshot, holding off the goblin hordes with Gandalf) happen earlier in the book. He gets armor for the Battle of Five Armies, but we don't hear many specifics about him in that battle, just that he fights very well and leads a big charge. Gimil does have armor in LotR, but just a chainmail vest for travel. In Rohan he picks up a helmet and shield as he prepares to go into more serious warfare.
Compare that to the more elaborate gear worn by dwarvish armies in The Hobbit and the Silmarillion. Dain's army is very heavily armed and armored, with metal caps, hauberks, shields, short swords, mattocks, and an elaborate metal hose to protect their legs, showcasing dwarvish metallurgic skills. The dwarves of belegost in the Silmarillion on the other hand wear armor that holds up to dragonfire.
We don't have a lot of evidence of dwarvish noble armor being better than standard dwarvish armor. The "princely hauberk" was a Mithril coat, made explicitly on commission for an elf, not a dwarf. I suppose some of the nobility of Moria might have had mithril hauberks, but most of those were probably lost.
>>47892315
>Where does the "dwarves are great fighters" stereotype come from?
D&D mostly, where early on dwarves were fairly limited in class options.
>>47893076
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#Trunk
Precision and strength are not exclusive. Humans just have fucking terrible muscle strength for land-dwelling mammals of our size, mostly because of how our muscles are attached to our bones and because we're optimized for endurance, not strength.
>>47893417
Gimli is the worst fighter in the Fellowship other than the hobbit. He's actually not much of a warrior at all.
>>47893969
hobbits*
>>47893819
T H I C KI kind of feel bad for memeing, but I do like that as well
>>47892609
Don't really have much to share but the Weta stuff is pretty great.
>>47894017
There's nothing wrong with it as long as you don't go overboard.
>>47893969
Didn't he kill more Uruks than Legolas at the battle of the Hornburg?
>>47893969
Boromir got himself killed in a fight against Uruk-Hai, and Legolas killed fewer orcs than Gimli. On what are you basing your claim that Gimli is the worst warrior among the three, exactly?
>>47894027
I recall some anon pointing out that given the traditional homes of the dwarves being caves and other narrow labyrinthine dwellings, pikes and spears would be one of the most effective weapons for a short and stout people. In a narrow corridor, a combination of pike phalanxes and shot would be utterly devastating.
>>47894057
Boromir got killed by a enormous band of very well-armed Uruk-hai, and they took heavy losses in the process. Gimli was downright frightened of the Men at the battle of the hornburg and went to kill orcs instead - not uruk-hai, normal orcs who are about hobbit-size
>>47894051
>>47894057
>>47894116
What, if any, is the difference between Uruk-hai and orcs?
>>47894128
Uruk-hai are MUCH bigger, about as big as a human. They aren't afraid of sunlight. They're also much more disciplined. They're the orc warrior caste so to say
>>47894148
Do they have free will or are they mindless like orcs? Could one desert and not want to be a warrior?
>>47894128
They're bigger and better in every way.
>>47894199
That's a possibility for all orcs according to Tolkien, it's just not particularly common as orcs usually hate almost everything to varying degrees with the possible exception of themselves
The Uruk-hai are bloodthirsty as fuck and seem to be legitimately loyal to their masters rather than following their orders out of fear, so probably it would be less likely than with a normal orc
>>47894128
They're effectively Middle Earth's half-orcs, and unlike in standard fantasy, the human actually makes them stronger than a full-blooded orc.
>>47893204
Well, the movie was awful, but that scene was still pretty awesome while it lasted.
>>47894445
...Fuck
>>47894057
>>47894116
Boromir did go down fighting like a boss at least.
>>47894515
What game?
>>47894551
The third Hobbit movie.
>>47894564
oh. any good?
>>47894445
Hahaha, technically Blue Board safe I guessMei best overwatch waifu
>>47894515 is pretty cool though
>>47892731
>n medieval romances they're even frequently mentioned as being deformed, having hunched backs or clubbed feet or something similar
I think you're confusinh the Northern European mythology dwarf (where Tolkein's idea of dwarves comes from) with the a general descriptive term for tiny malicious humanoids in folklore, like Rumpelstiltzken and the like
>>47894587
If you liked Jackson's other movies, chances are you'll like that one, too.
>>47894587
It's awful, and not even because it's different from the original source.
Haven't seen the extended version, maybe it is less bad but I have little hope.
>>47893094
smaug wrecked everyone's assholes
It took a magic arrow and an exceptional archer to kill him.
>>47894116
That's a mischaracterization. Gimli never said he was frightened of men.
>>47894148
>MUCH bigger
How much bigger? Orcs aren't hobbit or dwarf height, and they're not quite man height. So, what, five foot five or so? A meter and a half? There are plenty of human men in that size range, I think you're exaggerating.
>>47894587
I've still not seen it, but I've seen this scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpsFWBzDHkk
And Billy Connolly as a dwarf lord, so it's not all bad
>>47894706
>A meter and a half
>Man
You wish, manlet
>>47894602
It's a little more complicated then that.
On the one hand, you have the Nordic mythological dwarf. On the other hand, there was a continuing tradition that branched out from that as you went further into the Middle Ages. Lots of German romances have stories about underground dwarf kingdoms, including Laurin, who ruled an underground kingdom of dwarves in the Alps. Like the old mythological dwarves these dwarves lived underground and made magical weapons and armor. It was an evolution of the older, more Scandinavian tradition and it eventually evolved into the fair tale dwarf we know today, which you see in stories like Snow White.
Tolkien drew on both. His dwarves incorporate a lot of things from the Nordic dwarves of the Eddas, including a lot of the same names. But the Dwarves of Norse mythology weren't generally said to live in big underground kingdoms. They lived in boulders and the like, usually in small groups, maintaining private forges. They were often treated as chthonic nature spirits, popping in and out of solid stone without the need for a door. In the Eddas and sagas, Gods, kings and heroes sought out these lone dwarf craftsmen to get them to make magical artifacts and weapons, via bribery, payment, or threats. The idea of dwarf kingdoms really kicks in with the Medieval romances, with stories of dwarf kings like Laurin or Goldemar, or King Herla, tough Herla got somewhat conflated with fairies. Still, it was these dwarfes that Tolkie based concepts like Moria or the Lonely Mountain off of, vast underground kingdoms of great wealth and beauty, presided over by diminutive nobles with long beards. The beards thing, it should be noted, was more common in these sorts of stories, and isn't mentioned as much in the older Norse sources.
>>47894706
No, they're literally described as being as tall as Men. And the Men in Middle-Earth are STILL more "magical" than modern people and Easterlings. They're 6ft on average, higher than all but the 3 tallest modern nations or so, with the Dúnedain being even taller with royalty being commonly over 7ft and up to 8 (which is why the people at Bree think Aragorn is kind of freakish)
>>47894935
The most detailed description of Uruk physiology is in The Two Towers, after Boromir's death when Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas inspect the corpses of the orcs that attacked them. They're merely noted as "goblin-soldiers of greater stature" compared to the dead Misty Mountain orcs they also found nearby. It's never said that they're tall as men, just that they carry man-like gear as opposed to the usual orc gear, and it's their gear that Aragorn and the others find most remarkable, not their height.
>>47895042
>Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.’
>‘I thought of him too,’ said Aragorn. ‘We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm’s Deep
>>47894741
>look i said manlet again im so cool
You're getting annoying.
>>47895174
Also take in mind that man-high is not just an estimate on Middle-Earth, it's an actual if informal unit of measurement based on how tall the Numenoreans were. It's even where "halfling" came from.
What about Messi? His height doesn't affect his speed and his lower centre of gravity helps his mobility.
>>47895174
Those are the half-orcs, not the Uruks. There's a difference. Half-orcs can pass as human and Saurman created them to use as spies as well as soldiers. Uruks were created by Sauron and, while closer to humans in many ways, were still recognizably a type of orc.
>>47895217
Messi's all around physical fitness would be very hard to reproduce on the ancient world. Even just FEEDING him would be pretty expensive. Unless you bring magic into the question, in which case you may as well have a fucking gymnast dwarf and no one can tell you otherwise
I'm looking for pictures of dwarves, so completely armored as to look like inhuman, metal, environmental suits.
Have anything like that?
>>47895286
>>47895286
>>47894199
In canon, there were some Uruks who didn't give a zog about Sauron and wanted to run away and becomebandits.
>>47895334
>>47895340I yield, I yield.Never should have come here.
>>47895348
all i got
>>47895334
not even a little close
>>47895359
>>47895286
>>47895286
Since the thread's already halfway derailed into a Tolkien circlejerk take a Belegost dorf
>>47892554
>chimpanzees have a height and reach disadvantage compared to the average human
>an average chimpanzee can still rip the latter apart though from a pure strength perspective
Kind of? Adult male chimps are about 30% stronger then adult male humans. It's a very solid advantage, but one lost to reach disadvantage, height disadvantage and much worse coordination (chimps can't make small, accurate motions like humans can due to how their nerves interact with their muscles.)
If the human avoids grappling, they win. If there's anything in the battle space usable as a weapon, like a stick or fist sized rock, they win.
>>47892315
>Wouldn't they suffer from a pretty important height and reach disadvantage when fighting anything but other dwarves?
Not really, unless the world's currently wanking itself into a torpor over the tercio, like in the late renaissance.
Don't get me wrong, reach is good, but it can be overcome. Don't forget these guys are built like rugby players, only condensed into a smaller volume. It's like ants.Plus, dwarfs are inherently magical and so no one has to explain shit, at setting maker's discretion.
>>47895446
Chimps can run about as fast as human elite sprinters and have the clear advantage on anything but perfectly open terrain with nothing for them to climb on. They don't really have finesse but I wouldn't want to fight someone whose punches are as strong as a heavyweight boxer's, who can pull even stronger, and who is almost as fast as Usain Bolt
>>47895446
Yeah, and if the chimp isn't in fact a chimp and instead has a weapon...
>>47892315
>Where does the "dwarves are great fighters" stereotype come from?
Gimli in LOTR, which is ironic because he's not really that great of a fighter.
>>47895706
>he's not really that great of a fighter.
Are you kidding?
>>47895808
Compared to Boromir and Aragorn, who are both fucking giants and probably among the strongest people in Middle-Earth, or Legolas who is a Sindar elf-lord?
>>47895842
No.
>>47895386
i dident read his full post i just started to post dwarfs, sorry for trying, i wont be doing it the next time then...
>>47895842
gimli and legolas have a competition to kill orcs at helm's deep and gimli wins
>>47893969
He's better than Legolas, which suggests he has massive, MASSIVE skill superiority, being that he inherently has less speed.
>>47895862
Thanks.
>>47895869
Not by much and Gimli had far better gear.
>>47895862
Long as it doesn't turn you into a passive aggressive bitch, it's all good.
>>47895808
He shies away from ordinary dunlending fighters.
He's great at chopping up orcs, but he's clearly far worse of a fighter than the two men in the party, and only roughly on par with Legolas.
>>47895889
Legolas is an archer while Gimli needs to get into melee range.
>>47895880
In terms of sheer fighting prowess, elves > men > dwarves. The most impressive thing dwarves do in all their history is an entire army severely wounding a young dragon who survives anyways, and by comparison Túrin, a man, kills the same dragon while fully grown all by himself. There are many instances of elves fighting Maia, and in one case a Vala
>>47895889
>>47895932
Not only that. Legolas is a Sindar elf and a prince. He is a badass.
>>47894934
There is also a lot of name overlap.
In the Nibelunglied the Dwarf is called a Kobold at first.
>>47895869
>>47895880
>>47895889
>>47895916
>>47895932
Doesn't even matter. He's a good fighter, whether or not the best in the fellowship.
>>47895916
You're reading way too deeply into the line about the men of Dunland. Eomer and Aragorn kill some Dunland hillfolk. A bunch of hidden orcs try to get the jump them, and Gimli pops out of nowhere and kills the orcs. When Eomer and Aragorn express surprise at Gimli's sudden appearance, he revealed he'd been sitting in the corner and says
>'I followed you to shake off sleep,' said Gimli, 'but I looked on the hillmen and they seemed over large for me, so I sat beside a stone to see your sword-play.'
Which to me comes across as a slightly smug Gimli saying he decided to let the other two show off before he saved their bacon. It certainly doesn't make me think Gimli couldn't acquit himself quite well against the men of Dunland, or that dwarves can't fight taller foes, especially considering that Thorin holds off three trolls in The Hobbit, blinding one and knocking the tooth out of another.
>>47895960
To be fair, the concept of kobolds is probably a later development from dwarf folklore.
>>47895980
That's how I always read it, as humorous, Gimli bruising Aragorn and Emoer's egos slightly after saving their asses.
>>47894587
Its a good Dungeons and Dragons movie but a poor Hobbit movie
>>47895980
I think few people other than the likes of Aragorn, Boromir or Gandalf could beat Gimli in a fight. The way people spoke about him in the Battle of Helms Deep. Saying they have never seen an axe used so well. And beat Legolas(an elven prince) in the kill count after legolas had a 20 kill headstart.
Gimli is a straight bad ass who is sadly under-represented in the movies
>>47894027
>those Filipino axes
The armour is great but the weapons don't feel dwarfy at all.
>>47896177
The fuck are you talking about, that's dwarfy as shit.
>>47896230
Nigger, please, that's practically goblin trash.
>>47896170
"not the beard!"
"don't tell the elf!"
"still only counts as one!"
>>47895706
In the book he comes across as pretty convincingly the most dangerous hand-to-hand IMO.
>>47895944
Events showing prowess =/= prowess
That one moment the entire army Severely wounds the young dragon has all the Orcs and shit so fucking shit scared of the dwarves when the dwarves leave the field they do so unmolested.
But Orcs are fine at charging at Elves and men constantly.
>>47895944
They are the only army that can withstand the dragon.
>>47896177
It's in keeping with the aesthetics.
>>47894116
Orcs are not hobbit sized. In the Hobbit they are described as being about as big as humans but bowlegged, which makes them apear smaller than they are.
>>47896517
That's because they're the only ones whose armor can stand the fire, not because they're the most skilled warriors
>>47894128
>>47894148
Uruk Hai are a crossbreed of Orcs and humans made by Saruman.
>>47896771
Sam and Frodo can wear orc armor, and pass for orcs in Mordor with that armor on. And hobbits are around 3 feet. I'm almost sure there's a direct reference to their height, but I have to leave for a while right now so in any case I'd post them once I'm back
>>47896503
>>47896788
Armor doesn't do much when the dragon can still smash your formations, the Dwarves managed to drive it from the field
Imagine this. You're an orc. You've fought Elves before and know they have some superpowered heroes in their ranks. You charge into the Elves because you know at least if you're lucky, you can fight a normal elf and some unlucky sods can fight the hero. You're basically a dynasty warrior's mook and you hope you can just fight the other mooks.
Now imagine the Dwarves shown up and they literally rape your dragon with axes and hammers, you know, you're big ass super weapon that you thought was going to turn the tide of the War.
That's why Dwarves were effective, they were super heavily armored pile drivers that fucked up Evil's trump card.
>>47896911
It was a single dwarf who got close enough to stab it on the belly. The most important thing was avoiding getting burned into a crisp or going crazy due to the dragon's stench before you even got that close, and dwarves were the best equipped to do that
legs have less armor than the chest. dwarfs are at an advantage once they get close.
>>47896911
>be dwarf
>have plot device armor that makes you immune against that one enemy
>be the only one in a battlefield situation that can do damage to it
>anon declares you as the ultimate anti-dragon fighters
>anon thinks that you are the best at fighting things because of this
>despite the fact that men and elves fought against so much more and in more badass ways
>ignore that one human that actually kills it with a single stabbing
Dwarffags gonna be dwarffags.
>>47896813
Uruk-hai exist all the way back in the First Age. Saruman bred some and improved upon them, but they're not his creations
>>47897099
What's the source for this? I more or less just read through the Silmarillion and don't remember that.
>>47897154
Actually forget that. Another anon told me that too and I thought it was odd, but now that I'm searching for it again it looks like he was just wrong
>>47897021
>the Dwarves of Nogrod were unmatched in Middle-earth in smithing
>The Nauglamír Affair.
Dwarves were shown in the Silmarillion to be equal to the Elves in many ways, Superior in some and lesser in others
The way Dwarves are greedy just as Dwarves are prideful.
>>47897209
I also think it's bullshit.
Fantasy dwarfs Imo aren't all that shorter 4'6" - 5'6 which in combat isn't that bad, especially if you are heavily armoured juggernautz who don't mind trading taking a blow to land on yourself.
Imo most dwarfs weigh more than the average male human, with musculature being covered with a layer of fat, but due to the massive amounts of mining / smithing / other physically demanding jobs the majority of the dwarfen pop is massively strong.
In skirmish battles they do suffer from the lack of ability to close as effectively, but will just sit back and shoot the crossbows for this reason until the enemies play nice and come closer; always trusting in their armor to protect them.
Just because they are a little on the short side doesn't mean that the natural benefits they have doesn't out weigh the negatives.
>>47897230
>>The Nauglamír Affair.
I would be careful of that. It's really this one single instance in which some dwarfs won over some elves. But you don't hear of dwarfen heros like Túrin, Húrin or Fingolfin.
>>the Dwarves of Nogrod were unmatched in Middle-earth in smithing
The Noldor were also were pretty fucking good at smithing things. Won't say that they were better, but a fully armed Noldor army was a thing to be feared by Melkor and has proven itself to be capable fighters. The dwarfs have proven themself to smith armor that can withstand a dragon, which they can't kill.
>>47895286
>>47897230
Nothing is equal to first age elves. They were made by Eru with the specific purpose of being the best at everything in exchange for having the hardcoded restrictions as the Ainur. The dwarves are better smiths because they're papa Aule's favorite peoples so they got teached by him even more closely than the Noldor on top of their natural affinity for it. Even then the Noldor are better jewelers.
And the elves of Gondolin were better than the dwarves by virtue of having learned all of their smithcraft and being elves
>>47897342
This is good, thanks
>>47897393
Only one I've got, I'm afraid. It's from Warhammer Fantasy which has some great Dwarf designs, might be worth looking there if you're looking for similar.
>>47897351
>>47897336
Jesus the Elf Wanking is pretty hard when you people can barely understand the role the Dwarves even played.
They were not the main characters, they showed to be highly skilled smiths and jewelers whose faults were Greed.
Sure, Individual Elves were better at higher points of the story, but that's sort of the virtue of being the main focus of the story.
You can harp about the Elves of Gondolin being better Smiths all you want, but the Elves of Gondolin didn't smith Dragon-proof armour did they?
>>47897442
>elf wanking
>tolkien
It's not a matter of wanking when it's true.
I can't remember if Gondolin didn't exist or was still secret at the Battle of Sudden Flame, but in any case they still hadn't been taught dwarven smithcraft by Maeglin, which is when they surpassed the dwarves
>>47897442
We are just here to inform you that the dwarfs in the first age were not the super powerful anti dragon weapons and general über-soldiers created by Aule that you>>47896911 painted in that post by pure speculation and handpicked incidents in the books.
>>47897524
Is there any actual note that says "Surpassed the Dwarves"
Because "Being the best Elf-Smiths" by being taught by Dwarves doesn't mean they exactly surpass the Dwarves.
>>47897442
>dwarfaboo in charge of not being butthurt
Elves will always be the superior race in every way except in shortness, and even then there's probably a kind of short elves so even at THAT they're better than dwarves. Sorry, I don't make the rules. Idiot.
>>47897433
I'll look into it, thank you.
>>47897565
They didn't get taught by dwarves, they were taught by an elven smith who learned all the secrets of dwarven smiths by chatting with them and then taught all the other elves at Gondolin when they let him in.
The arms of a common soldier of gondolin were mentioned as being incredibly valuable and far better to anyone else's, so that's one thing on their favor. Heck, even a bog-normal dagger from Gondolin becomes a legendary weapon later, Sting. And Anglachel was so ridiculously magical it was sentient
>>47895645
>They don't really have finesse but I wouldn't want to fight someone whose punches are as strong as a heavyweight boxer's...
Chimp punches really aren't that strong. Punching is something that human anatomy is kind of specialised for, along with throwing and swinging levers. Other apes aren't nearly as good as us at delivering strikes.
Yes, their grip strength is off the fucking charts and they can literally tear you a new asshole if they get their hands on you, but even something as simple as smashing rocks into each other demonstrates how poorly suited the chimp shoulder is to delivering an explosive swing. Chimps literally can't crack a rock, the basic element of human tool-making.
>Elf vs Dwarves in here talking about the silmarillion.
I see nobody gets the point of the Dwarves at all in the Silmarillion.
The Dwarves were not planned. Not at the start at least. They are not the preordained devices Elves were; Iluvatar did not make them.
They're not perfect, on the contrary, they are extremely flawed. And they were created this way.
In a way Dwarves are more flawed than even humans, with none of the grand heroics or devices of grandeur that being the favoured sons of Iluvatar get.
But the point of the Dwarves is simple; You do not need to be the chosen of god to be good.
Sure, the Noldor and the smiths of Gondolin may be better smiths and better soldiers, sure the men of the world have greater heroics. But the Dwarves were there, they helped and they showed that they can still give to the world greatness.
Elves are trees, they can be beautiful and amazing and impressive, able to stand out and be historic and great.
Dwarves are stone. Common, simpler but can still show greatness.
>>47895320
That helmet/beard combo is pretty gnarly, although the rest of his gear looks like total shit.
>>47897886
Dwarf status = BTFO
>>47896439
>movie quotes
>>47897946
I think you missed the point of that fellow's post
>>47892315
There are many dwarfs who use spears or halberds insetad of axes.
>>47898014
>dwarves are inherently worse than elves because they were created like that and never improved upon it
>elves were always perfect
Sounds pretty BTFOed to me
>>47897886
I think the guys arguing for humans and elves understood this better than the dwarfaboos.
>>47898061
Not really; you have people like >>47898056
Acting like cute little retards trying to think my words were somehow there to mar dwarves.
I mean if you want to know, the Dwarves were the greatest at what they ENJOYED doing. And that was Mining, masonry and Smithwork.
Dwarf masonry was second to none, and although you can say Gondolin Smiths eventually surpassed Dwarves, they were still taught through Dwarven methods.
Dwarves crafted many items of reknown like Narsil and the Nauglamir and were respected by their "Perfect" adopted cousins the Elves for these things.
For beings that never had the direct blessing of the literal one over-god, the Dwarves proved to be outstandingly capable.
>>47898126
They still didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
>>47892509
Depends on how you fight. Being shorter is always an advantage in a grapple if you are just as strong. Low center of gravity can help you in a lot of ways and can make someone with a heavy build more graceful. And since most armored combat was about toppling your opponent before finishing them off, I can see dwarves being formidable despite their hight.
>>47898175
Telchar is actually very important in the grand scheme of things.
Like he is right up there with Fëanor and Celebrimbor.
He forged items like the knife Angrist. The Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin. Narsil.
All very important items.
>>47898201
>Being shorter is always an advantage in a grapple if you are just as strong. Low center of gravity can help you in a lot of ways and can make someone with a heavy build more graceful
Dragon's Crown will forever be my favorite depiction of fantasy, because, not only when it comes to dwarfes, it just takes the pure essence of what those classes and races should be about. And then goes with it and beyond.
>>47895446
Chimps bite fucking hands off people that try and hit them dude
>>47894935
I'm not remotely convinced that "men" in Tolkien's work are particularly magical or meant to be anything other than your typical human.
Certainly I'd buy there being super-subraces of humans, that's a major point, but I seriously, seriously doubt there's solid basis to have Tolkienian humans in general being anything unusual.
>>47898440
I can say as much that the men in the first age were described as as strong as elves in general. Their stength dwindled in the later ages.
>>47898440
All the Men in middle Earth are descended from the Edain, who due to their interactions with the elves grew stronger, taller and longer-lived than their normal brethen in the East, which they regarded as little better than orcs. Not ALL people in Tolkien are magic, it's just that literally everyone in the West IS magic to some degree.
Dwarves as literal ape men?
>>47898689
I'm fairly sure that's just some of the men in Gondor and (what used to be) Arnor. The men of Rohan for sure aren't
>>47899255
No, it's all of them. The people at Gondor and the rangers of the north are just even more blatantly magical due to being descendants of the Numenoreans. Even the Rohirrim have their own flavor of "magic" in their connection with horses, besides.
>>47898764
I would prefer Dwarfs as magical creatures as depicted in most folklore. They could compensate for their slight form with powerful magics.
>>47892722
chimps are bad at throwing things because they lack the ability to pinpoint in their mind where their projectile is going to go, something humans have that they do not
it has nothing to do with their body
>>47899494
This if a chimp was as smart as a human he would kick all kinds of ass.
>>47894109
save for transporting a lance or pike through that would be torturous if not impossible
Height and reach aren't THAT important in weapon combat.
I mean, if two opponents are 100% perfectly matched in every other way, sure, the one who's taller and has more reach will win. But skill, the particular weapon, armor, etc. will be much bigger factors.
If a dwarf is like 5 feet tall but strong, stocky, tough, skilled, hardy, well armored, and well armed, he'll be just fine in a fight against a human or orc or whatever. Whatever little reach difference there is probably won't be a huge factor. And especially in the case of Tolkien's orcs and shit, where they are a little smaller than humans or more hunched over or whatever, and goblins are even smaller still, they'll be fine
>>47899654
Difficult yes but not impossible. You could just make the pike in sections and attach them together like the Macedonians did. That said a spear might as well be a pike when you're in a tunnel anyway.
>>47892731
Dwarfs as in dwarfism or mystical ones? I know the Norse ones are great smiths.
>>47894109
That was possibly me. I also pointed out that:
>dwarfs should dig tunnels only high enough for them, so humans and orcs would suffer for their height
>the tunnels would be zigzagged so ranged weapons wouldn't be that much of a advantage
>besides pikes, dwarfs should have a legionnaire-like unit: armored, disciplined, using tower shields to defend and tire their enemies, drawing them in for a quick stab with gladius/short spears.
>and have some mercenary cavalry or at least light, quick euzonoi-like infantry for grudge's sake.
>dorfs are greco-romans with incredible engineering and legendary heavy infantry.
>>47894109
I bet shot would devastate the ears in tight places.
>>47892315
I doubt height disadvantage matters much given how most Dwarves are genetically different enough that they can't make babies with humans unlike Elves. Who knows what's in their DNA.
>>47895286
>Glorious! The beard lice alone can outfight an orc chieftain.
>Powerful! Herds of curious elephants shall follow the stomping of his footsteps.
>Vigorous! His bleeding can fluster horses.
>Bright! The gilded gold shall reflect the sun, and ignite pansy elfish arrows in midair.
>Cunning! It is said that his beard hides a portable, pre-drunk dwarf berserker, just in case.
>FOR DWARFDOM!
>>47902065
>>47897917
It's concept art for Dark Souls 2's Gyrm subrace. They're all undead and shit so their stuff isn't in the best shape.
>>47898764
I love Trudvang Dwarfs.
>>47895286
>>47902116
>>47902133
>>47902080
>>47902150
>>47902190
>>47902200
>>47902261
That's all my favorite ones.
>>47896846
>Sam and Frodo can wear orc armor,
Specifically mention it being oversized and a lot of luck that they pulled it off at all
>>47902347
All I find is this
>‘Quick now, Mr. Frodo!’ he said. ‘I’ve had a bit of a search to find anything small enough for the likes of us. We’ll have to make do. But we must hurry.
And him passingly mentioning that Frodo would need to have longer arms and be bow-legged to look the part
The REAL question is is why do people ask if Dwarves would be good fighters when compared to the tallfolk? They don't need to be; dwarves need to be good fighters against beings their own height. Giants care very little about their great prowess against men, because they have their own problems to deal with.
>>47903365
If you're a dwarf and you're facing off against a human, or god forbid elf, army of massed infantry/ cavalry, then something has already gone horribly horribly wrong.nothing a little dwarven artillery can't fix though
>>47893013
also don't forget dwarves live longer and aren't filled with the same existential ennui that elves have in their old age. though elves are often good at fighting too. dwarves practice and they don't sit around playing lute for a month in the bath tub.
>>47894515
I still do not understand why the elves chose to dive OVER the perfectly constructed pike and shield wall formed by the dwarven army.
No wonder they were getting their arses kicked until a couple dwarves on Ram mounts showed up
>>47904969
>I still do not understand why the elves chose to dive OVER the perfectly constructed pike and shield wall formed by the dwarven army.
Well lets see
>Get to step on dwarves
>Undermine their efforts
>Show off your superior combat skills
>Still technically a show of truce since you're helping them
Sounds like a win-win for the elves. Aside from dying horribly.
>>47905225
>Fucking Elves
>Dont understand flanking or countercharging
>Make Orcs look fucking competent
>>47898033
There aren't enough Dwarves using polearms in general. Stout, heavily armored formation fighters? C'mon, that's perfect for some proper weaponry.
>>47908093
They be awesome using billhooks and halbereds amongst a pike formation.
>>47893819
That works.
>>47893076
Their limbs have a much higher muscle density than those of humans (incidentally this means they tend to sink in water) and the ligaments in their arms and hands are powerful because these limbs are partially specialized towards arboreal locomotion.
Their thumbs have poorer articulation and appear stumpy and useless to humans, but they're strong enough that a chimp can dig them into soft tree bark or hook them around a branch to help hold their bulk up when in the trees.
Why they never use fucking spears? If they are short they should offset it by using long weapons what kind of retarded logic is that to fight to your own weakness?
> Hurr gonna go up close and personal with someone who has range advantage what's the worst that can happen xD
>>47895320
>that giant opening in his fucking torso
might as well just wear a helmet and leave armor
>>47894726
>yfw they fall for the old twirly whirlies
>twice
>>47908103
I love the idea of polearm dwarves but what about stabbing swords?
Think about it. The polearms make sense in order to avoid the issue of reach, but what if dwarves went the other way and fought Roman style with stabbing swords, armor, and tower shields? They have the grit and organization to stand in formation, and the power of dwarven armor would allow them to stand defensively or just plow into enemy formations so they can get into a close melee. Look at this guy, with a shield that big you can't really hit him. He just has to raise it a little and his head is covered. You'll never hit his feet.
>>47909011
Spears lend to the same tactics but offer better reach
>>47909107
Spearfags regularly got beaten by sword using Romans.
>>47892315
Due to the way volume and surface area scale dearves would be ideally suited to wear plate armor for long periods of time.
Being smaller isnt too big of a deal when fighting as an army because regiment fighting is more about leadership and coordination.
The trope says that dwarves are expert engineers and artisans. dwarves would make ideal weapon and armorsmiths and likely have primitive armor piercing weapons their rivals lack. Hardened steel armor and secret "wootz steel" like weapons could be there own specialties.
Finally as expert diggers and miners dwarves would be ideal battlefield controllers if given prep time. They can dig moats, trenches, barracades, and other such fortifications anywhere to provide defense and battlefield control. Maybe even pitfalls. Armor and powerful winch drawn crossbows, some big enough to be crew operated would provide strong deterents to armored knights while dwarven infantry would be invulnerable to the efforts of their enemies "light infantry" due to superior arms and armor.
I think dwarves could hack it if they followed most of their technology tropes, even in the absense of firearms.
Their weakness would be an inability to be strong aggressors and an inability to gain strong advantage when an opponent routes due to lack of mobility.
>>47904238
>cavalry charge a dwarf formation
> you can't lance them because tower shields
>can't really flail or mace them because too low to the ground and shields
> horses get their legs cut out from under them, corpses don't crush dwarves because it lands on 8 of them and they just heave it off and eat well that night
your best bet is probably catapults and flaming tar. don lose all your expensive horses
>>47909297
And Romans happened to use fucking spears as well.
>>47892315
Have you ever tried to fight a short guy? Punching downward is super awkward.
>>47911782
Then fucking knee him instead you inept fuck.
>>47897342
That photo always gets me thinking...
>>47894128
Tolkien never decided clearly where orcs come from, but at first they were supposed to be elves that had been tortured to the point that they became orcs. Elves are smaller and physically weaker than humans (despite their superior dexterity and shit), which means that a half deformed supertortured elf is even smaller and worse at everything.
Uruk Hai are orcs that have been mixed with humans, and therefore got back a lot of raw strength and size. They´re also less vulnerable to sunlight.
Later on Tolkien regretted that because he didn´t want to have people who were evil beyond redemption, evil by nature, and changed everything a little, but that´s the gist of it.
Got any Dorfs in power armour?
>>47914996
>Elves are smaller
No, not really. They're about the same size or smaller than the Dúnedain, but that's because the Dúnedain are fucking massive. A typical elf is well over 6 ft
>and physically weaker
The elves in middle-earth, who're almost universally some flavor of dark elf, are usually weaker than the Dúnedain rapetrains that were Boromir and Aragorn. That doesn't mean they're weaker in general. Galadriel could probably physically overpower anyone in the Fellowship except Gandalf and maybe Aragorn, given that she was notorious among the Noldor for being about as big and strong as a male.
They were tough and able to keep formation better than any other race. Very important asset in melee warfare.
>>47892315
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRgi5d7XsgY
>>47916001
Pretty sure Boromir is just a normal man. He's from a noble line, but there's no elf in there. He's in his prime, whereas Aragorn is older.
Tolkien isn't fucking DBZ.
>>47918501
No, Boromir is FUCKHUGE. It's at several times remarked how enormous he is. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas could barely carry his corpse, and Aragorn is Andre the Giant levels of huge as well. The people of Minas Tirith aren't quite normal people yet, there's some Dúnedain blood among them, and especially so in the higher classes.
>>47892574
Dwarves, lanky.... What fantasy are you reading, dwarves as I've read have always been portrayed a short, squat and heavily built.
>>47918684
Also, Aragorn's elf blood is incredibly diluted, and pretty much everyone and their mom descends from Luthien. At least everyone important. It has nothing to do with him having an elf great-great-great-great-great-great-great and so on and on grandmother, and everything to do with him being the last descendant of the kings of Numenor, who got their power as a gift from the Ainur, not from their lineage.
>>47892876
As much as I know this post is well over a day old, I can't help but respond. In the series by Markus Heitz dwarves are actually very strong and skilled warriors.
>>47918790
It kinda is also from their lineage. It's godblood stacked of elf blood stacked on man blood. There's just too much going on in that bloodline.
>>47892530
fuck off elf
>>47902243
I think that spears and, more in general, polearms, would make great dwarven weapons.
>>47911959
Heh
>>47918983
>no fantasy author before Tolkien and CS Lewis depicted dwarves as physically tough, skilled warriors
>before
What's your point?
>>47909864
Dwarves would still make good aggressors. All those skills for building fortifications is just as good for destroying them. Meaning if let the dwarves attack your walls would be a terrible idea. They would know how to sap em an their heavy infantry would be a nightmare good at taking ground.
Dwarven armies would be very good at both holding ground and taking it. Their weaknesses would be hounding after the defeated enemy as you said, skirmishes, and if they are caught in a battle before any side has the chance to fortify, for in such a battle the dwarves wouldn't be able utilize all their expertise. Dwarves would also be a bit slow to retreat.
Dealing with dwarven war engineers and their massive amounts of heavy infantry would make them a fucking nightmare to deal with. Their ranged weapons also wouldn't be a joke most likely being a very powerful crossbow that would be made to even pierce dwarven platemail.
Overall this results in dwarves being a very difficult to deal with enemy and a foe you will want to fight and skirmish with out in the field as much as possible. As if you fight them at your own fortifications your going to be have a real bad day and if you fight at their fortifications you'll have an even worse day.
>>47895869
Legolas is a nice guy and says he killed one less after hearing Gimli's sad little total.
>>47896846
Hobbits are usually about 3'6 to 4', with some special exceptions reaching 4'6 (Merry & Pippin doped up on entish HGH)
Pony Dragoons.
>>47918790
Boromir's blood (and claim to Gondor) was almost certainly stronger than Aragorn's. The line of the Steward was pure as fuck.
>>47923758
You don't get a claim to the throne by "pure" lineage, you get it by having a royal lineage. If you're not of the royal line then knowing your ancestors exactly for however many generations only further reinforce that you are in fact not the a heir to the throne.
>>47922596
Sounds like anyone with just a touch of strategic depth could run a rape train on a dwarven army with a bit of harassment, chasing their foraging parties, and a touch of scorched earth. They're slow as it is, slow down even more if they have to keep building fortifications, and still have to eat.
>>47923907
Just steal all their beverages. Army moral broken.
>>47892315
Thematically it makes perfect sense for them to be good fighters, and the stocky build evokes that image. Whether or not it makes logical sense is irrelevant.
>>47909011
do you realize that pikemen carry exactly this kind of sidearms ?
>>47922596
Rome has excellent and fascinating examples of using fortifications offensively.
>>47893013
>implying Roman's were good soldiers
>implying they did not win by setting up forts everywhere
>implying they didn't win by attrition most of the time
>implying later Roman periods weren't dominated by foreign conscripts and mercenaries
Which settings Dwarves?
The ones in warhammer tend to be between 4'8 and 5', D&D are a little shorter 4'5 ish, and Shadowrun has them down under 4'.
Pretty sure a 5' tall guy on enough roids to be wider than he is tall would be fairly handy in a fight even with a reach disadvantage.
>>47923758
That Aragorn was on his fucking 80s by LotR but everyone thought he was still young, and that he could mentally match Sauron with the palantir, says otherwise. And his claim to the throne is proven beyond doubt by the whole "the hands of the king are the hands of a healer" thing
>>47925372
That Aragorn was on his fucking 80s by LotR but everyone thought he was still young
And he doesn't die until he's like 200, either.
>>47925406
Most in LotR would be considered older by our standards. A Hobbit's coming of age is in their 30s for one.
>>47925470
All other races live longer than normal humans since that's kind of the point, but the Numenoreans lived significantly longer than say, a hobbit. Royalty lived either as much as they wanted (they could literally choose if they wanted to die there and then) or about 400 years. Aragorn's death is very premature by that metric, so it can be brushed off as fate
>>47901704
As in mystical. Smith-work was the main thing Norse dwarves were associated with, and in Norse legends and sagas dwarves (again, as in the mythical creature) were repeatedly overpowered by humans. There's no mention of them being good fighters. They use magic instead.
>>47918501
>>47918501
>Pretty sure Boromir is just a normal man.
Boromirs line does have elf actually. hes also named after an elf. so hes noble numenorean with added elf blood. hes a living hero and one of the great warriors and commanders gondor has ever had. also everyone loves him, from his solders to the common folk. hes probably the single most famous person on the fellowship since hes actually known in universe as a hero. him and the dorf who killed azog but i forget his name
do you people not actually read the books before getting into lore arguments over them? Boromir is as far away as a normal dude as you can get. him and beor are without a doubt the two biggest badasses in middle earth
oh yeah he also has magic prophecy powers (along with dad and brother) which is why he was at rivendellat all since nobody actually invited gondor to attend
>>47893813
Not only that, but the Franks are a Germanic tribe who settled a good portion of Gaul in the aftermath of the Roman Empire disintegrating.
>>47925585
I'd really like to see more fantasy settings that played around with the older ideas of dwarves as quasi-nature spirits, or at least defined more by their magical nature, instead of aping the Tolkien template.
>>47926505
>him and beor are without a doubt the two biggest badasses in middle earth
>Not including Hurin, the guy who killed so many orcs he was only finally captured after being weighed down by all their still clinging severed limbs
>Not including Turin, the slayer of the first dragon Glaurung
And those were pureblood men, not these elfblood numenorean cheaters
>>47928845
neither of them were in middle earth my dead anon. also thats thousands of years old. obviously i was talking more about the timeline that hobbit/lotr covers
also i really do think beorn and boromir could take hurin. boromir killed as many orcs and they were super-orcs and they were actually trying to kill him, not just capture him
would love to see either of them go up against glaurung too. boromir and aragorn both turned back to fight the balrog (while all the other faggots ran away) so its not like hes scared to
beorn took on an army single handedly and pretty much won so i dont need to defend him
>>47928845
>>Not including Turin, the slayer of the first dragon Glaurung
Yeah, though Turin's curse may have actually KEPT him and his sister alive so they could suffer longer and more tragically.
Because Morgoth was a massive cunt.
