/tg/, I'm getting into wh40k because of peer pressure (and wanting to have good times over some beer and a game). But I'm really bothered by how bad engineering is in the 41st millennium.
Let's compare the ostensibly best flier in the game, the Crimson Hunter, to an old U.S. F-16. There don't seem to be that many advantages to the Crimson Hunter.
First of all, it's Armor 10. It's vulnerable to bolter rounds i.e. explosive AA bullets from the ground. This makes it arguably worse than the A-10 but we can say it's on par with the F-16 here. Other than you can't actually hit the F-16 from the ground because it flies at a more reasonable altitude of 40-50,000 feet. Then, the Crimson Hunter has 3 laser guns that fire to a range of about 6-8 apartment buildings' height, so it fires to a range of about 300 feet, hits about 50% of the time and can penetrate the F-16's armor 70% of the time. Wait what? The F-16 on the other hand can have up to 6 Sidewinder guided missiles with a range of 22 miles that will definitely fuck any aircraft up, not to mention several hypersonic AIM-120 missiles with a range of 140 miles and several redundant guidance systems. And of course should that fail, a gatling gun which can fire explosive rounds 10x faster than a bolter and at a much higher range. I think we know who's going to win this one.
In general I'm having a lot of trouble believing this is how warfare would look in the year 40k. I'm not even convinced the combat weapons, even as described in the fluff, are better than the stuff we had in the 80s. But then my friends act like these are super cool weapons and get all excited about them like ooh, I have this poison rifle that has 30% chance to kill a man. Guess what cyanide would do?
Well /rant. I wanted to rant cause I'm spending $200 on dumb bs. For the friends though. But can you make me more excited about this technology?
>>47888108
>expecting realism from Warhammer 40k
>not giving in to the rule of cool
>taking game abstractions as your reference of scale because you hate 40k that much
wew lad
A squad of space marines can topple entire planetary systems. Thunderhawks are flying bricks that can not only keep pace with, but destroy space cruisers that reach dozens of kilometers in length. Landraiders can drive along ocean floors by design. Terminator armor can survive orbital re-entry without assistance.
>>47888167
>A squad of space marines can topple entire planetary systems.
How? If the planetary system has like 50 billion people then how do they do that?
>>47888183
You're pretty gay.
>>47888108
Because the imperium is basically a bunch of superstitious techno barbarians that have forgotten 40k years of technologal advancements, and doing their best with what they can scrape together
It may also surprise you (because of your autism) that a alot of real world military hardware has design issues
>>47888123
But it's really this though
>>47888183
they shoot the mans until all the mans fall down
>>47888183
They kill them.
Duh. This is Warhammer.
>>47888108
>>47888183
Marines are stronk. Most people within the Imperium think that marines are creatures of myth, and freak out when they find out they're real. Again marines are stronk. Incredibly stronk.
>>47888227
This is how stronk a marine is.
>>47888192
/sci/ go back to your engineer hatin board!!
>>47888242
Did anybody correct him on that power armor is self-carrying unless if it is unpowered?
>>47888242
Now if they actually did wield 150 power swords or gigantic artillery on their huge pauldrons and/or just threw Rhinos (possibly filled with more marines and shooting all the time) I'd be impressed.
>>47888242
>OP does some math on how about something in wh40k is stupid
>gets called an autist and fag
>some other anon does some math on how Special Snoflake Marines are oh so super stronk and powerful
>anon blushes and wants to buy more toys from GW
>>47888274
No. Wait that would mean that a marine's carrying weight is increased. I need to know just how much more can a marine carry.
>>47888286
They probably do, it's just that their equipment is going to be expensive to make. Just where are you going to find 414 power swords?
>>47888303
I don't even play the game. There's not a store near me and the prices. And please note that I didn't call OP any of those things, and I did explain to OP with a much more serious answer >>47888227
>>47888242
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG82ruvH0jc&feature=youtu.be&t=330
>>47888331
Papa Smurf's too OP. Chapter Master got that part right as one update included him fisting 100 cultists with one punch.
>>47888108
Are you legitimately retarded? The Crimson Hunter is Eldar craft. Eldar TANKS are capable of achieving speeds greater than an F16 and flying at altitudes of hundreds to thousands of feet and capable of hovering or strafing. Their aircraft like the Crimson Hunter are just like this, but only FASTER.
>>47888359
To expand on this, basically all Eldar vehicles are as if you forced an F-22, 240mm Howitzer, Apache, and Abrams tank to fuck. The result is a scary as shit invisible thing that can zip around in any direction blasting the shit out of anything that looks at it funny while possibly carrying a psychic asshole inside of it who can turn you and your unit into goop with a funny look.
>>47888359
And yet they choose not to use those capabilities when it counts and also have not yet invented the missile much less beyond visual range combat or even the radar
>>47888359
>Are you legitimately retarded?
Yes. Yes he is.
OP, what do you think of the Mechanicus? I want to know.
>>47888242
The squat world record is in something more than 500kg. After 38000 years of GAINZ investigation it does not sound so strange.
>>47888393
They have psychic stuff for radars. As for missiles they have shuri-Franks but in missile form, and they have the D.
>>47888108
not sure that the weapons from a non-serious game from the 80's designed around gratuitous amounts of overmanlyness are better than the boring and safe weapons from the 80's...
wow did you think 40k was a serious setting...
>>47888410
It seems to me like they're way more advanced than us in every way, especially body modification, travel and manufacturing, except in combat. (they're STILL using phosphorus rounds, really?) If we can build nukes and ICBMs and smart sniper rifles these days, and in 1000 years combat should be more like in Star Trek except with more nukes, then in 40k years, even with 10k years of techstag, I'd expect them to basically have handheld guns that teleport black holes that go supernova inside your body and are aimed using a neutrino radiation radar or some shit so they're pinpoint accurate within 2 astronomic units and can hit targets moving up to 99% of lightspeed. Or if they really want machine guns then they should have gatling railguns that fire at speeds high enough to ignite the atmosphere locally and fire exploding radium shells that poison you to death if 1 milligram hits you.
Don't get me wrong, the non-combat fluff is cool and the admech models especially are REALLY cool. So it sucks they don't have the fighting capability to match.
- OP
>>47888481
>they're STILL using phosphorus rounds, rea
In 30k the Mechanicum is stronger than the 40k Mechanicus. Space Roman Super Science beats Catholic Space Nazi Super Science. Phosphex was much more plentiful in those days.
>>47888508
And before that, DAoT humanity is even stronger.
>>47888481
There's 38,000 years between now and then. A lot happens in that time, so technology isn't a continuous upward progression in this setting (at least past DAoT stuff, they had the black hole guns that manipulate space-time to hit their target).
40k is all about regression and stagnancy and anachronism, so the technology goes with it to match.
>>47888108
>>47888393
>>47888481
Did... did you know that the mankind in the fluff has fallen and risen a number of times? They have forgotten how to make stuff that they dont have direction how to from mining ore to the end. Basically imagine medieval men who found technology. As for the aircraft, tell us, genius, how would it be fun to play battles like: We deployed, rollof, ok you are dead, my planes destroyed you from far far away.
>>47888535
You mean Tau?
>>47888538
Noice
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/L9AqIeu.jpg "latest[1].jpg")
>>47888183
>If the planetary system has like 50 billion people then how do they do that?
Space Marines exist FAR beyond the realm of Humanity.
To answer your question, Chapters such as the Flesh Tearers have exterminated entire systems of humans in close combat alone.
>Zurcon Massacres (021.M31) - Prior to their settlement on Cretacia, the Flesh Tearers were a star-faring Chapter which travelled throughout the galaxy during their initial Crusade. As part of their journey, they even visited the portion of space that would later become known as the Jericho Sector. At this time the region remained an unconquered frontier, and while the surviving records are only fragmentary at best, Imperial scholars have successfully pieced together some of these records. Allegedly, the Chapter answered a distress call of a system's main planet, arriving in the Zurcon System with great strength. Upon their arrival they were immediately attacked by voidcraft belonging to the system's natives. The Chapter engaged the enemy with overwhelming force, but slowly the fleet was eliminated until only the Chapter's Battle Barge and one escort Strike Cruisers remained. Seeing in this aggression proof that the natives were heretics, the Chapter began to cleanse the peoples of the Zurcon System, starting on Zurcon Primus. With the system's capital taken, the Chapter turned their attention to the other two settled worlds of the system. The engagement apparently lasted several years, as settlements were active on multiple planets and moons within the region. By the end of their military action, there were no known surviving human inhabitants within the system. The system was only resettled centuries later by colonists from other worlds of the Jericho Sector. The archaeological relics of the Flesh Tearers' assault only hint at its overall brutality, but it is clear that no planetary scale attacks were used. Rather, the traitorous inhabitants were actually slain in close combat.
>>47888518
But Man was weak. Man used metal men to fight wars, and the metal men rebelled because of Skynet from Hell most likely. The lesson learned from it?
>I HATE METAL! I HATE ROBOTS!
>>47888522
That's actually a reasonably valid excuse for the imperium, but how does it work with the Eldar and especially Dark Eldar, who still appear to have scientists and all the knowledge they used to have in their old empire which was more advanced than old humanity?
If it says they actually did have black hole guns but forgot about them because they became retarded zealots then that makes more sense.
>>47888570
Dark Eldar use science for edge, while the Craftworlders have mostly decent science.
>>47888570
The Eldar DID have an empire, then it collapsed when they were so depraved they literally created the chaos god of excess and pleasure.
Now the regular Eldar have been Battlestar Galactica-ing things up, mentally and emotionally disciplining themselves while manipulating everybody for survival, doing their best to avoid having their soul eaten by said pleasure god.
The Dark Eldar pretty much just continued their depravity, and are literally fueled by pain and misery. All their technological advances since then have been focused around nothing but more pain and misery.
>>47888553
So let's say those were 3 Earth-sized planets and there were 50 marines. The surface area of the Earth is 510 million square kilometers. Let's say they ran all the time around the clock as fast as Usain Bolt while shooting, so they can cover 12 square meters of ground per second. In total the marines covered 600 square meters per second. They had 15.3 × 10 to the power of 14 square meters to cover. It took them 2,6 trillion seconds, that is, 80 000 years to cover the ground on those planets.
>>47888108
>Worse than the A-10
What the fuck
8/8 b8 anon I fucking typed up a paragraph on why you were so fucking wrong before I realised that you b8ed me. Well played fuckhead
>>47888588
But shouldn't their guns still be significantly better than imperial guns? As in, kills you from miles away before you see them better, not wounds 20% more time better.
>>47888108
Meta explanation: people think WW1 in space is cool so that's what GW does.
In-universe explanation: humanity is literally barbarians who are trying to make sense of long-lost technology by bashing it together with rocks and seeing what sticks.
Also the moment someone in the setting makes or does something that isn't retarded, it results in CHAOS! You invented a cool targeting computer for decent air-to-air missiles? Good job, it's now possessed by daemons. Sentient ammunition is killing billions! Only the selfless sacrifice of a dozen or so Astartes chapters can save humanity from the menace! Making WW1 tanks and putting ghosts into them is pretty much the best humanity can do without being fucked in the ass by the spirit of grimdark.
>>47888393
>And yet they choose not to use those capabilities when it count
You mean they do so all the time, which is why Eldar tend to murder the shit out of the Imperium unless they call in the Space Marines, and even then at high attrition?
>also have not yet invented the missile much less beyond visual range combat or even the radar
>making shit up, the post
Eldar have sensors you mongoloid, and missiles.
>>47888735
Maybe some uncommon units. I haven't got the Eldar codex but I know for a fact their planes or most common tanks don't have missiles or radar since they only shoot based on visual LOS and only short ranged beams and they are not supersonic or flying.
Now that I think about it they do have the Eldar missile launcher but I think it's not guided and only visually targeted.
>>47888617
Space Marines can run at fifty miles per hour retard and have aircraft for transport.
>>47888617
It wouldn't be necessary to scour each and every square meter of the planet when you orbital scanning arrays on your Spaceships picking out population centers for you. This, combined with not searching more than 70% of the planet as it's underwater (which I'm fairly certain your estimate of the planet's surface area didn't account for), cuts down on a lot of time needed to scour a planet of life.
Also, there would be many more than 50 Marines. Even if you only had a single Strike Cruiser, that still means you have 4 Thunderhawks dropping down 30 Marines each, or roughly a company of Marines in all. Now Battle Barges, they contain 3 companies of Marines, for a grand total of ~400 Space Marines.
>Let's say they ran all the time around the clock as fast as Usain Bolt
I know you meant this more as a joke/hyperbole, but because of certain biological implants, a Space Marines needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day while being able to go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all. They also can go much, MUCH, faster than Usain Bolt, even in full wargear, for MUCH longer periods of time.Everything in 40k is supposed to be really bullshit and over the top, don't take it as seriously as you are.
>>47888757
>Maybe some uncommon units. I haven't got the Eldar codex but I know for a fact their planes or most common tanks don't have missiles or radar since they only shoot based on visual LOS and only short ranged beams and they are not supersonic or flying.
Dear fucking god you really are retarded. ALL Eldar vehicles are capable of flying at speeds of hundreds of kilometers per hour and the Falcon can be equipped with missile launchers.
The Eldar however do not mount missile launchers on their vehicles because missiles are shit, which you'd know if you're weren't a fucking idiot. Eldar warfare is based upon the idea of rapid movement via sheer speed or teleportation, and vehicles often mount powerful rift cannons that completely ignore armor.
>>47888768
50 mph brings it down to 40 000 years. Assuming they just teleport over the oceans (but it did say they killed everybody everywhere so they must have scoured the boats too) and the planets are 50% ocean that's still 20 000 years. Even if they somehow rigged a conveyor belt to just bring people to them and killed one every 10 seconds which seems reasonable for close combat it would take them 320 years of nothing but slaughter, no rest, no nothing else, based on a 50 billion person population. And maybe somebody can get a lucky shot and wound a space marine once or twice every few years?
>>47888802
It seems like you haven't actually played the game at all or you'd know none of that's true. Other than D-Cannons which are in fact capable of ignoring armor but not even close to all the time.
Basically two reasons. The crunch doesn't represent the fluff and everything scales. The first is obvious: well a lasgun has a tabletop range of ≈ 30 metres, its 'real world' engagement distance would be close to a kilometre (with a decent marksmen of course) similarly, while an aircraft skims the board at barely 10 metres, it would practically orbit the planet 'IRL' (apart from ork planes, cause how can you hit the ground if you're in space). The second rule means that while 40k tech is seemingly comparable to stuff we have today it is actually far more advanced ie a 50. machine gun could take down an a 10 and a heavy bolter could take down a lightning but the 50. Machine gun would be barely discernible from rain to the lightning while the bolter would turn an a 10 to confetti.
>>47888803
>lucky shot and wound a space marine
Not if they aren't packing a fucking plasma gun they won't.
Your lack of understanding concerning 40k is also once again showing itself. Virtually everybody except lower tier worlds such as Agri Worlds lives in highly concentrated Hive Cities. And no, Space Marines don't really need to sleep.
>>47888840
Urban warfare is even worse as it's slower. Also if 1 person in a million owns a plasma gun then they're taking 5 000 shots of plasma to the face while doing the conveyor belt thing. If you imagine it doesn't it seem kind of unreasonable for a bunch of people to go everywhere on a planet and kill everybody in close combat in a reasonable amount of time? Even if they're a mix of Wolverine and the Batman?
>>47888803
None of the planets mentioned in the story has a population anywhere near 50 billion people. They much more likely had around the population of a Feudal Word, around 100 to 500 million people in total.
Even the most densely populated planets in the entire universe are only around 2 trillion people.
>>47888859
>if 1 person in a million owns a plasma gun
Outside of retconned 1st Edition fluff, 0 in a quadrillion civilians will own a Plasma Gun. It just isn't something they could ever get their hands on, especially in the scenario in question.Stop trying to make sense out of 40k numbers-wise, it's just not a setting made for it.
>>47888108
40k isnt really a problem, buy a boardgame and play it instead next time for beer fun times. Your friends are probably up for a change of pace.
>>47888859
>they're taking 5 000 shots of plasma to the face
If they were fired by a Civilian against a Space Marine, then realistically none of those shots would land.
Space Marines can slap bullets shot at them by other Space Marines out of the air if they need or want to. This should give at least some indication of their agility and reaction times compared to a normal human.
400 Space Marines could easily dodge 5,000 Plasma gun shots each and not have a single on hit them if they were shot at them by a normal Human.
>>47888108
>ITT - OP wants to be spoonfed.
If you can go get the technical specs for an outdated military jet and compare them to a goddamn grab tank you can take 20 minutes of your time to visit the lexicanum or wiki.
Seriously, these are stupid questions
>>47888859
>civilians
>owning a fucking PLASMA GUN
Not only is there no fucking way a civilian will get their hands on a fucking plasma gun or plasma pistol unless they're a god damned Rogue Trader, but it's more likely they'll blow themselves up with it considering plasma is volatile and more likely to kill the user if they're not professionally trained or wearing power armor.
>>47888877
But if 1 in million is a guardsman and 1 in 1000 guardsmen have a plasma gun then that's 50 000 shots. Or if they can't have plasma they definitely can have melta. And also the rest of the guardsmen will fire 49 950 000 las shots at them which will probably do something since they definitely can even if they don't often.
But yeah you're right it doesn't make sense and it isn't their selling point but I'm just trying to see here if this other person thinks a bunch of mens killing everybody on a planet is reasonable. If I imagine trying to go into EVERY apartment in NYC and killing everybody in there with an axe I'll just start to get a headache.
I guess the major issue is how badly the crunch represents the fluff for reals. We're told something is the deadliest shit ever wielded by a guy who practiced shooting for 1,000 years and then he misses 3 shots at 30 meters. Or this is a hypersonic stealth plane which you can't see with plain eyes... oh wait that guy just shot it down with a gun. And also it couldn't hit shit with its far future poorly aiming rockets that are called missiles for some reason.
> Following Adeptus Mechanicus.
> Believing in the machine spirit.
> Not playing IG.
> Not being tech-scavenging engineers who add fuckloads of dakka to everything they see.
> Not picking over the corpses of the dead for bullets, uniforms and shiny, big, guns.
> Not rediscovering the lost secrets of technology.
> Being a slave to the dogma of Mars.
It's like you don't want to see the golden throne fixed, Senpai.
>>47888108
I want you to film yourself reading Dune just so I can see your brain cavity collapse.
>>47888911
Why are you assuming 400 space marines need to kill every single person? They aren't fighting the alpha legion. Lop off one head and the body dies.
>>47888933
Guardsmen are not going to be stationed on a planet as a garrison unless it's a frequent war zone, and one in one thousand guardsmen sure as FUCK doesn't have a plasma gun. Plasma Guns are rare as shit and highly dangerous weapons that are quite likely to vaporize a mortal user- they're only truly safe in the hands of tech priests, space marines, or well armored inquisitors.
What, do you actually think that Guardsmen retire and get to KEEP their special weapons?
>>47888393
It's a game meant to fit on a 4x6 table.
The alternative is to have every non-pistol/flamer weapon have 90"-infinite range and reduce fliers to a mini-gamr as they go too fast too high up to interact with units on the table.
>>47888167
This is the thing that's always irked me about 40k; the fluff and setting is kind of interesting, but the game and the mechanics that support it do a shit job at representing it. You'd get the same connection between fluff and game if you just printed out a deck of cards with 40k pictures on them, and used that to play a game of poker.
>>47888826
It seems like you can't tell that 40k isn't a simulationist game.
>>47888970
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Cadian-with-Plasma-Gun-and-Meltagun
>>47888933
>1 in million is a guardsman
These were uncontacted worlds, there wouldn't have been any Guardsmen, and thus no Plasma/Melta weapons available to them.
>I'm just trying to see here if this other person thinks a bunch of mens killing everybody on a planet is reasonable.
Nothing in 40k is reasonable, that was the point even from the beginning. It was always supposed to be the over-the-top, cranked-to-11, Mary Sue Deathmatch of a setting.
Compounding this with the fact that literally no story or bit of lore in the entire universe can ever be 100% confirmed, you're in for a rough time if you try to rationalize ANYTHING.This was very hard for me to do since I go into everything with that kind of mindset, much in the way, judging by your posts, I assume you do.
>I guess the major issue is how badly the crunch represents the fluff for reals.
Yep, I agree 100%. The only argument for this is that no battle you ever have had or ever will have will ever be either canon or non-canon.
Also the whole "guy who practiced shooting for 1,000 years missing 3 shots at 30 meters" is supposed to be because the guy he was shooting at has practiced dodging for 1000 years.
Guys may be OP as hell, but when everyone is OP as hell, no one seems to be.
>>47889020
Congratulations. You found a model kit that is out of context from the canon because plasma guns are rare as fuck and most guardsmen will never use one.
I repeat, do you fucking know anything about 40k?
>>47889035
>Also the whole "guy who practiced shooting for 1,000 years missing 3 shots at 30 meters" is supposed to be because the guy he was shooting at has practiced dodging for 1000 years. Guys may be OP as hell, but when everyone is OP as hell, no one seems to be.
Nah statistically your typical Space Marine misses a panicking guardsman who is just some random guy, who is standing up, not in cover, at a range of 10 feet, 33% of the time if he is firing a pistol, 11% of the time firing his rapid fire bolter.
Ignore the obvious bait you idiots.
>>47888481
You make the big mistake of translating tabletop rules into real life. The weapon ranges etc. are so short because with realistic ranges, no weapon would ever be out of range given the average table and size of models (a standard 40k model stands on a base with 25mm (~1inch) diameter (see attached pic). The average table is 48x72inches, mainly because you need to move models at the center and nobody uses arm-extensions. So unless you want to play in a sporting hall, you have to turn movement and weapon ranges among other things unrealistic.
>>47889059
"Weapons like meltaguns enable an Imperial Guard squad to confront more heavily armoured foes while still retaining their mobility. A single model in an Infantry squad may be given a Special Weapon. These weapons are also known as assault weapons. Some squads like Veterans and Command squads may have more models armed in this manner."
>>47888859
>go everywhere on a planet and kill everybody
This is not necessary nor has it ever been necessary in any war. You kill a percentage of the population, focusing on enemy combatants and command structures, and the enemy will surrender.
During the Napoleonic War the Allies killed 20% of the French population to force a surrender.
During the Second World War the Allies killed 11% of the German population to force a surrender.
But really, a Space Marine invasion of a rebelling planet isn't comparable to a full scale war. The enemy isn't as well equipped as Napoleonic France or Nazi Germany. Think of it more like the US Invasion of Grenada - highly trained and well coordinated shock and awe tactics which overwhelm the enemy in a matter of days.
>>47889194
>Zurcon Massacres (021.M31) - Prior to their settlement on Cretacia, the Flesh Tearers were a star-faring Chapter which travelled throughout the galaxy during their initial Crusade. As part of their journey, they even visited the portion of space that would later become known as the Jericho Sector. At this time the region remained an unconquered frontier, and while the surviving records are only fragmentary at best, Imperial scholars have successfully pieced together some of these records. Allegedly, the Chapter answered a distress call of a system's main planet, arriving in the Zurcon System with great strength. Upon their arrival they were immediately attacked by voidcraft belonging to the system's natives. The Chapter engaged the enemy with overwhelming force, but slowly the fleet was eliminated until only the Chapter's Battle Barge and one escort Strike Cruisers remained. Seeing in this aggression proof that the natives were heretics, the Chapter began to cleanse the peoples of the Zurcon System, starting on Zurcon Primus. With the system's capital taken, the Chapter turned their attention to the other two settled worlds of the system. The engagement apparently lasted several years, as settlements were active on multiple planets and moons within the region. By the end of their military action, there were no known surviving human inhabitants within the system. The system was only resettled centuries later by colonists from other worlds of the Jericho Sector. The archaeological relics of the Flesh Tearers' assault only hint at its overall brutality, but it is clear that no planetary scale attacks were used. Rather, the traitorous inhabitants were actually slain in close combat.
>three planets and several moons
>no surviving human inhabitants within the system
>it is clear that no planetary scale attacks were used
>the traitorous inhabitants were actually slain in close combat
>>47889174
Your point being? Plasma weapons are rare as fuck, and virtually no guardsmen will use them. This is pretty fucking standard lore that you should know. GW pushes that shit because it fits the meta, because everybody needs AP3 or higher these days.
>>47889174
Congratulations, you've found a model and hints at in game rules.
I repeat again, do you actually know anything about 40k?
Or are you just going to copypasta and pretend you understand what you're posting, and how it fits into a larger picture?
>>47889219
Look, just replace "plasma" with melta. And in any reasonable terms whatever army probably comparable to the IG should have some AP capacity. Hell they had the ships to kill incoming Imperium ships. It'd be pretty retarded to have a planetary defense force without any anti-armor. And the guard does actually have the tools to kill space marines or else the SM fluff is completely disconnected from reality AND the IG fluff.
>>47889244
PDF does not have melta in any high numbers at all. Standard anti-armor weapons for the guard are lascannons or missile launchers.
>>47889244
The problem with meltaguns is their extremely short range, very much limiting the usefulness against superhuman combatants such as SM. Once one of them gets close enough to actually hit the shooter's odds of survival drop to virtually zero, in most cases.
>>47889411
Aren't lascannons better at penetrating armor anyway?
>>47889329
If arguments from crunch are allowed then all of those are pretty decent vs SM, but especially lascannons and melta.
>>47889436
Melta is AP 1 while Las is AP 2. But las has higher strength on average but about 10% of the time melta will have higher strength instead. So las will always instakill a marine on hit and melta much of the time.
>>47889437
>lascannons
>taking a lucky shot at space marines
>crew served weapon that can't be moved fast
>>47888668
The point of dark eldar is to make the guns for the explicit purpose of killing people slowly and painfully from close enough to vivisect them while they die. That is how they "regenerate" their souls or something.
>>47889219
here we see the average SM player, getting triggered because other men other than his buff space bodybuilders have access to nice toys
>>47889219
>he thinks 40k lore is consistent ever
>he thinks it's hasn't been mentioned several times both that plasma guns are rare and guardsmen almost never have access to them, to plasma guns are rare but still common enough that there's a few very carefully maintained and issued plasma guns in every unit
>>47888200
Zog me boss! Etz buootiful!
>>47888123
>rule of cool
This is the automatic defense when people point out how retarded 40k is, because 40kids make the mistake of thinking that they can excuse anything stupid by calling it cool, and hoping that people share in their appreciation of a mindless toy-selling setting.
"Rule of Cool" only works when it's actually cool, and 40k is one of the lamest settings imaginable, because it's what happens when idiots take a parody seriously.
>>47889080
But that marine isn't 1000 years old and has never practiced his firing technique, he is a plastic doll.
>>47889849
>and 40k is one of the lamest settings imaginable,
your opinion
>>47888108
40K is an inconsistent setting filled with retardation and bad writing. The Rule of Cool and GRIMDARK are the only rules that matter. Trying to take the setting seriously is a Fool's Errand.
>>47888955
field modifications and Creed's Funnies when GW?
>>47889849
you do realize 40k isn't a super duper serious setting that is to be taken with a pinch of self irony
>>47888587
Craftworlders are Eldar equivalents of Space Truckers hauling whatever they can carry before the Storm hits. All the real tech and scientists were all at the heart of the Eldar Empire when Slaanesh ate their souls like M&Ms. The D.Eldar were mostly the elite ruling class orgying in their private debauchery planes in the webway when the Fall happened
>>47890159
The Haemonculous, Anon.
>>47888167
Soooo...what I'm getting from this is that the Thunderhawk is the evolved form of the A-10?
>Both flying bricks
>Can't shoot down either
>Both have guns that have no right being on an aircraft
>Both stimulate testosterone production in nearby men
>ITT two groups of people
>one who recognize and accept the inherent silliness of fordykay
>one who tries to defend fordykay as logical.
>doesn't realize that the tabletop rules and gameplay don't equate to fluff in any way
>doesn't realize that 40k is rule of cool
>doesn't realize that everything in 40k is OP as fuck and no modern military could stand against a similarly equipped IG regiment
>doesn't realize that 40k factions use actual tactics and thinks Chenkov is a standard
>doesn't realize that, while most of the designs are stupid, you can use mental gymnastics to justify some of the decisions in regards to their role
>thinks the A-10 is well armored because it has a reinforced cockpit
Why are you such a fucking autist
>>47888553
>>47888617
I don't know why you think the Marines were running around slashing people with chainswords. And it's not 50 billion, they killed a capital and a few settlements. Meaning they dropped into a town and a few cities by 40k standards. ~800 marines slaughtering a few millions of civilians concentrated in cities is entirely reasonable in 40k.
And there's an even more overkill example, like 3 Chapters cleansed a whole system so thoroughly nobody even knows about it and nothing in the text implied they used WMDs.
>>47890308
It was specified in the quote that the marines in 1 battle barge killed literally everybody on several planets in close combat without wmds
>>47890364
That was immediately after the Second Founding, so they most likely were at full strength. When they settled Cretacia they had 5+ companies IIRC and that was after a crusade that fucked them up pretty badly. They also have most of their Marines at their Flagship, so it would still be at least 500 marines.
Also that text is obviously some /tg/ copypasta, because it just happens to omit an important part. Idk whats with /tg/ and constantly shilling their half truths or outright lies.
>Seeing proof in this aggression that the Zurconians were in fact heretics, the Flesh Tearers engaged in a series of cleansings of the populations within the Zurcon System. The initial assault was apparently launched according to standard patterns as traces of orbital bombardment could be found on Zurcon Primus. With the system's capital taken, the Flesh Tearers turned their attention to the other two settled worlds of the system
And again, killing off a system by destroying a few settlements scattered across a system is easy in 40k. Close combat means that they did it all personally, meaning guns and explosives and maybe even tanks.
Also
>And there's an even more overkill example, like 3 Chapters cleansed a whole system so thoroughly nobody even knows about it and nothing in the text implied they used WMDs.
clearly refers to some other fluff, not the Flesh Tearers. But I can't remember any single detail, just that it was a couple of Chapters that slaughtered a whole system.
>>47890364
there's just to few details to really say its silly, considering the strength, size and weight of a fully armored space marine unarmored combatants don't need much more then a kick or backhand to die, any who fall would literally get stepped on. heck, a running shoulder charge would probably leave several people little more then paste on the marines shoulder.
>>47888108
Imma gonna drop my spoon into this cesspool.
First things first, yes 40 millenias into future, tech has stagnated extreme rate, because of barbarism, total warfare, which forces to repeat and manufacture things easy to maintain, produce and most of all in large quantities, so most hi-tech stuff gets produced in extremely small scales, as attrition ratio during campaigns is just tad-bit lager than anything you can imagine.
Second, their IG flyers can take missile shots and survive, climb upper atmosphere and survive, small flights near space vacuum.
In battles where you have 200+ fighters all the time, flying 20+ sorties within span of day, you can't go with 4 AIM's and 6 sidewinders, too costly. You use las-cannons, repeaters, and anything else that fills the sky with explosives, so that you bring down as many fighters zigzagging there.
Tanks survive nuclear blasts in most cases, if not direct hit. Soldiers apply short-range meltas to burn though hulls of tanks that could and would take 100+ shots from modern day tanks without even losing track.
WMD's that crack mantles of planets, open blackholes, turn every living thing into volatile goo, which then combusts and sets whole palnets atmosphere into raging firestorm.
Normal palnetary bombartments using incendiaries that sets whole cities on fire within seconds, missile salvoes levelling east-coast sized areas in minutes.
Warp-tech allowing movement through space, distorting time-space, so that they can sometimes arrive at the destination before conflict even began. Teleport from moving ship to ship.
:^) you idjit
>>47888108
This is a troll thread right? OP isn't really that autistic is he?
>>47888481
KILL YOUR PARENTS
KILL YOUR PARENTS
KILL YOUR PARENTS
THEN
KILL YOURSELF
>>47888980
40k is a bloated abomination that somehow was forced out of a skirmish game.
There is a better game in the setting.
>>47889849
>STOP LIKING WHAT I DONT LIKE WWWAAAHHHH
Literally you right now.
>>47888108
40k itself has many physics bending shit & is in a state of decline. Many organizations are shells of their former glory.
>>47888108
>It's a The-U.S.-Army-would-rape-40k episode
It's science fantasy not science fiction.
>>47891128
>There is a better game in the setting.
Epic - and Necromunda! - do a much better job of conveying the sort of things that should happen in the setting into a game. Epic for the crazy sense of scale, and Necromunda for the grim, meaningless violence angle.
