This auto-smite mentality when it comes to fiends needs to stop. Evil is a subtype, not just an alignment! They can be flavors of good and neutral and still be affected by detect evil/smite!
>>47880996
The way to fix this is obvious.
Doesn't any alignment sub-type dictate alignment? Even if not explicitly stated by the rules, *ALL* WotC/Paizo bestiary entries that have alignment sub-types are of that alignment.
Although even if I'm a LG, I'm the type of player who loves a good story arc, so no matter what I'm playing, my characters will always have a soft spot for the silver tongues of devils, and the soothing voice of demons. Because that's what makes stories interesting, to me at least.
And hell, when I'm GMing, I'll let the party parley with evil spirits, if they want to. If, those spirits can understand the party, anyway.
>>47880996
Nah, cleave and smite evil.
>>47880996
METHINKS THE HERETIC WISHES TO BE SMOTE!
LN Succubus in Planescape:Torment would still ping as CE to detect spells.
It's a result of DnD pushing alignment into the fabric of the setting and the mechanics. These were both bad ideas. Alignment should have been left as a loose rp tool and as general flavour for the planes.
>>47882106
>SMOTE!
You mean 'smitten'. And it looks like he already is.
>>47881121
I'm pretty sure that Succubus Paladin that got put into a module after winning a "weird monster poll" Wizards did still had the [Evil] and [Chaos] Subtype despite being Lawful Good. I think the idea is demos their physical body is still sort of "made" out of evil and chaos even if they're that one in a million exception to their normal alignment.
Presumably the same would be true of a Chaotic Evil Planetar Blackguard and the [Law] and [Good] subtypes
>>47882140
Both are correct, although "smote" is simply past tense and "smitten" is past participle.
>>47880996
evil propaganda. do not respond to fiend threads. report all fiend threads.
>>47882178
smote's also the subjunctive imperfect
so:
"He wishes he were smitten."
"He wants to be smote."
I think.
It has been a very long time since I've actually bothered with these uncommon conjugation tables.
>>47882165
found her
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a
granted being the winner of a poll like she was you might want to take her example with a grain of salt, and naturaly you, or your DM, might change how that kinda thing works in your/their game world anyhow
>>47882165
>>47882367
>profound changes sometimes stem from the natural forces in the multiverse. One of those forces is love, and love somehow found the succubus known as Eludecia.
>She does not talk about what happened, but during one of her many quests to tempt souls and bring them to the Abyss, she met a beautiful angel, and something unimaginable happened -- she fell in love.
Does Wizards employ janitors to scrape the saccharine puke off their writers' keyboards?
>>47882367
for a second I thought it was the one from Ebberon, or Pathfinder, which actually made a bit of sense.
IIRC the Demon Scar was a place where where the abyss start manifesting in the plane, and a goddess got caught in it. The succubus tried to take something from the goddess, and basically got goddess juice directly into her brain. This was enough to fundementally alter her nature enough that she's now good.
I'm forgetting a lot of details, but I remember it seeming like the best excuse of a 'good demon' in d&d i'd read.
>>47880996
people have way too much autism. Just rename every devil or demon to anything else if you want them to be characters.
>>47882106
>>47880996
>>47880996
Just have a good-aligned peasant be the victim of some demon's morning Alignment Misdirection routine and let that pally fall hard.
I know this is a topic that is most likely trying to bait people, but something has consistently bugged me about this. If a fiend rises, why are they still a fiend? Why are good and evil not transitive in this sense, where if the core of the creature changes, so does what forms them? Why would a fallen Angel not end up composed of evil, or a risen fiend end up not composed of good in this scenario?
>>47882870
>can't comprehend a non-evil demon or devil
>calls others autists
Catch that ferry.
>>47882870
well, there are other ways to handle it.
I've played games where the 'evil' subtype referred to the planar energy that was part of their makeup, because it only exists on outsiders.
Though those game always had alignment be outside of the normal axis structure. Sense and smite were changed to other concepts, like 'heresy', or 'sin' (which differed by church). If you still had sense/smite 'evil', that referred to the planar energy, and didn't affect most mortal beings.
5e also gets rid of this to an extent. Paladins have 'divine sense' which detects certain kinds of creatures. And alignment is defined by 5 broad statements, which have no direct game effect. I'm liking 5e for this as well as other reasons.
If you would rather smite an enemy on sight than try to convert them, you don't deserve to be a Paladin.
>>47880996
>it's an "anon shitposts with a fetish image" thread
>>47880996
NO
PURGE
>>47883063
You can't be serious
There's no fetish in that image, you're jumping at shadows anon
>>47882442
You're so cool, anon. I'll bet nothing fazes that black gem of a heart.
>>47883153
Not him but many people like their supernatural extraplanar beings with concepts like evil literally existing as part of their unnatural genome not to behave like tsundere highschool kids.
>>47883222
Wizard, ain't splain shit, etc
>>47883222
more or less agree. Demons, as they exist in 3.5 dnd, should change just from 'love'.
Direct injection of godly essence sure. 2e planescape, sure.
Other setting, demon could mean anything there.
>>47883083
>cutesy demonic loli
>animu eyes
>thigh gap I could put my foot through
>slave collar with leash(?)
>holding some goatee wearing goofy motherfucker like a (smaller) child
>not fetish
not the dude who pointed it out, but yeah, signs point to he's correct
>>47883271
>implying I said "how can this happen?"
>implying I was not responding to someone virtually calling another anon edgy for disliking concepts of demons falling in love
Calm down dependsonthesetting guy.
>>47883314
>animu eyes
>princess carry
>fetish
Also why are you thinking about putting your foot between the lolis thighs, anon?
>>47880996
I bet your one of those warlock types who gave peace a chance, gave quarter when asked and thinks mortals and devil kin can get along.
>>47883574
>ripping on warlocks
Jealous sorcerer detected.
>>47880996
This is true. I'm Chaotic Evil but personally identify as Lawful Good. It's discrimination for paladins to use Smite Evil on me. Please respect my alignment preference.
>>47880996
If you hate the alignment system, tell us and we will talk about playing a different game or just not use it. Don't lead us on by giving us demons and detect evil that detects the demons as evil, then revel that the demons are good people and detect evil could not help less with finding out weather someone is actually evil.
>>47885875
>weather
Paladins the land over have been striking out at innocents, and falling because of it. They say that they struck at evil. Little did they know that a malign sentient cloud drifted above, coloring good folks evil with the shadow it cast.
>>47880996
>Evil is a subtype, not just an alignment!
No you moron. Read the fucking books!
Evil is an alignment that is decided by the evil gods, there is no such bullshit you described.
>>47882608
One fateful night after she’d seduced a priestess of Desna and drained her nearly to death; on a whim she tried an experiment. Since outsiders don’t need to sleep, they don’t normally dream. Out of curiosity, she stole into the thoughts of her dying victim using detect thoughts while the woman lay sleeping, only to be pulled into the Dimension of Dreams. When the priestess died, Arueshalae found herself somehow trapped, but she hadn’t gone unnoticed.
In daring to allow herself to dream, Arueshalae gained Desna’s attention. She had already observed the succubus’s murder of one of her priests, but perhaps having learned a bit of forgiveness from her own divine ally Sarenrae, Desna did not smite Arueshalae. Instead, she reached into Arueshalae’s soul and quickened her larval core. Memories of her mortal life flooded back at once, memories of dreams that never came true. Desna whispered in her ear: “Even demons can dream."
When Arueshalae woke, she was filled with memories and regret, and immediately set about to atone for her very existence. The brush with Desna awoke within her both mythic potential and a great shame. She used her skills as a master spy to hide her change of heart, but when she acted to save the life of a wayward child who had become lost in the Worldwound (Adlo), the truth came out. She knew she would be equally hunted among the crusaders, and so she opted to remain in the Worldwound-hiding until she could learn something vital that she could present to the crusaders and thereby prove her good intentions.
The unique succubus companion for the Wrath of the Righteous Adventure Path from Pathfinder. She detects as Chaotic as she is no longer Evil. She has a template called Risen that is specifically about fiends becoming good. They go through a process of redemption that replaces their fundamental nature with good versions. Upon becoming good she gains a reverse form of the succubus energy drain.
>>47887263
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#evilSubtype
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-evil
>>47887263
Dumbass
>>47880996
Alignment shit is moronic and needs to be thrown out the window.
>>47880996
Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of CLEAVE AND SMITE!
>>47880996
>>47882969
Demons are different than humans. They aren't born and raised to be evil, they pop into existence with evil being their nature. You aren't going to get good-aligned demons outside of snowflake "redeemed succubus paladin" shit.
>>47890222
They are made of evil, and nine times out of ten them being made of evil makes them evil, but they are not always evil. A good demon is not a snowflake.
>DMs the type who would have us in situations that delve into this morality problem.
>remind him that as cool as that is, it physically cant happen when all moral qualms can be solved with detect evil, smite evil.
>>47890246
No, it is. A fucking huge snowflake with red flags sticking from all orifices.
>>47887512
I puked in my mouth a little bit.
>>47885875
It's yet another "redeemed succubus, wat do?" thread and an attempt to justify a dumb fetish. All that'll come of it is OP and a couple others trying weakly to defend it, people writing lengthy posts about how demons don't work like that, a few DEUS VULT'ers, and an anon whining about how he hates alignments and everyone else should too.
Just roll a good-aligned tiefling and stop breaking the thing demons are known and loved for.
>>47890260
>playing 3.pf
>>47890260
The OP literally describes a situation where detect and smite wouldn't solve it.
>>47890317
Then use fire. Fire solves everything.
>>47890246
>"I'm the one good demon!" isn't snowflakey to the extreme
Literally Drizzt.
>>47890393
Except there's plausibly more than one. No where near drizzt levels.
>>47890415
You're funny. His father was kind of leaning toward good-ish, one of his sisters is stated to have had the possibility of being good had Zaknalfein been able to mentor her, and so forth. Good-aligned Drow are much more plausible than Good-aligned demons because it's a result of culture as opposed to literally being composed of evil
>>47890522
Drizzt being a snowflake has much, much more to do with things other than his alignment.
>>47890532
My point still stands.
>>47890532
Drizz't isn't even much of a snowflake, the problem lies with all the bad OCs that tried to copy him. The only real issue with the character itself is that he's a little quick to angst.
![Drizzt-Sundering---Tyler-Jacobson[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Mr0VrvK.jpg "Drizzt-Sundering---Tyler-Jacobson[1].jpg")
>>47890987
Come on now, anon. He's pretty faggy even for an elf.
>>47880996
This has already been fixed, most anti "evil" stuff now affects all outsiders (fey, celestials, fiends and sometimes aberrations).
>>47891323
That doesn't sound like fixed, that sounds like they made it worse.
>>47891330
It makes more sense as a banishing type thingy, I think. If they ever make a Planescape book (pleasepleaseplease), they could easily re-rule it to be "things not native to the plane you're on".
(Also shit I forgot elementals)
>>47891393
>implying planescape isn't long forgotten
>>47891474
There were Modrons and Slaad in the first 5e monster manual.
How long is it going to take people to realize said "auto-smite mentality," is a meme derived from idiots misinterpreting jokes from 2007, and then carrying them on as fact through 2010? So many of the 4chins' complains about modern 4chan are caused by children taking sarcasm and cynicism from ten years ago seriously and building a culture on top of those misconceptions. 4chan became the place to go if you fancied yourself a deviant eccentric, and just a little spoiler alert here, if you think that about yourself and you're still in school odd are you're an ignoramus. So said people see the cool internet club house when people start making flash animations and youtube videos about the place, in spite of one of the oldest rules about 4chan being: don't talk about 4chan (it's not even listed in the rules anymore). Which, yes, it was an inevitability. As use of the internet became ever more popular and increasingly accessible, 4chan would eventually be found out. It's not like it was hidden or anything, you just sort of had to hear about it to know about it because who's going to punch hing "4chan.org," into an address bar without knowing it was a thing ahead of time? Nobody. 4chan didn't used to be great or anything, but it sure as fuck didn't buy into it's own shit.
This very thread has slowly derived from (what I hope) was an underhanded sarcastic statement into a legitimate discussion as to what doesn't and doesn't deserve to be smote.
>>47891792
If a demon is good you absolutely should not smite it.The rub is finding out if a demon is good.
>>47891901
Did you completely miss my point, or are you an ~8/10?
>>47891936
I'm sorry anon I don't really like commenting on blogs.
>>47883314
Are we in the 18th century?
>>47891956
0, try harder
>>47891978
In all honesty you took a lot of words to say 'this is a meme, and I don't like it'. Like, you didn't even have a point, you were just airing your grievances.
>>47892026
> statements about a group made at said group contain point
k
>>47882890
>VIA 9GAG.com
bruh
>there are people who unironically try to redeem beings that are literally made of evil
>>47891901
Obviously, your god/ess will give a sign that it's not evil. Until then, cleave and smite.
>>47891901
>If a demon is good
That's a paradox, you fucking faggot.
>>47890280
>I puked in my mouth a little bit.
I don't see how it's that bad.
Sure, it's a redeemed succubus, but it's not some stupid cheesy 'the power of love', bs. It's direct divine intervention, ties into the existing lore that demons come from larva that were once human souls. Full on divine intervention reawakens the human part that was part of their canon existence for a long time.
That's probably the least bad way to have 3.pf demons become good.
The only one better I can think is Fall From Grace, and that was full on planescape, which did funny things with dnd morality.
![d94e6e38f205fc47a3e910c5099a2721[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/quuLpKH.jpg "d94e6e38f205fc47a3e910c5099a2721[1].jpg")
>put a helm of opposite alignment on an evil outsider
>they are now good, but can still be killed with smite
>force helm on outsiders (let's say succubi for simplicity sake)
>shackle them in dungeon rooms
>reap mad evil deity cred by farming fallen paladins
>retire to a comfy plane
>>47880996
>They can be flavors of good and neutral and still be affected by detect evil/smite!
I agree. I should be able to smite every alignment.
>>47890280
>>47885875
What is the single grossest Demon in the setting and are there any redeemed examples?
>>47894492
It depends on the setting.
>>47881121
Nah, you can be LG while being a demon, but the subtype still has you be treated as "evil" for all alignment purposes, meaning that a Succubus paladin can be smited, but a solar antipaladin cannot.
>>47894537
Really dickish desu
>>47894508
I meant D&D and all its inheritors.
>>47880996
>using alignment
>playing games which feature alignment>>47880996
>>47894537
for Paizo at least, they established the means that you could get a LG demon. And that means explitely makes you lose the subtype as you change alignment.
So at least in Pathfinder, no, this is not a thing.
>>47880996
they're fiends anon, not fey, not yokai, or djinn or any other kawaii creature type that is called "demon" outside dnd.
>>47882870
Any creature with an int above 6 and the ability to talk, is a character.
>>47880996
Alignment is stupid.
>>47891792
Anyone got that quote about pretending to be idiots attracting real idiots?
>>47895199
that's one of the things in the post you linked to mate
![1375511470857[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/6MhUYqk.png "1375511470857[1].png")
>>47895199
>>47894537
iirc in 3e/3.5 you count as being your alignment AND whatever your subtypes are, so a Demon (CE), for example, that puts on a cursed item of opposite alignment counts as being Lawful, Chaotic, Good, and Evil. It basically just pings as "yes" to alignment-dependent effects.
>>47890415
So you're telling me that the god damn beings made of up of literal Evil energy from the Evil plane of existence, who are fucking Evil incarnate...can be Good more often than Drow, a mortal race.
>>47898180
Well, it's technically possible yes.
Demons are always evil and should always be destroyed wherever and whenever possible
>>47898261
No, its not. Not in D&D. They are literally made of Evil energy. It's a black and white morality system for high fantasy shenanigans. You want moral ambiguity, go play something else.
>>47880996
Outside of truly extraordinary circumstances. Fiends are more often than not Evil by their very nature. Assume them to be evil unless proven otherwise and keep your smiting hand ready
>>47880996
But smite harms all creatures, and my detection pings angels AND demons just the same.
How can I be sure?
>>47899573
It's literally technically possible in dnd
There are even canon examples
>>47899690
What edition/system? I know 5e paladins can tell what type of morally charged supernatural entity they're looking at.
>>47899918
Some homebrew bullshit, though 5e paladin is a pretty good way of doing it.
>>47899965
5e in specific situations a shit
Monster Girls are a shit fetish.
>>47901524
Whatever nerd
>>47901524
Your mum is a shit fetish.
>>47899700
No, it isn't. In third party stuff, yes. In core? No. Look man, you want to jerk yourself off or indulge in "WHO'S THE REAL MONSTER NOW?" or explore subjective morality, go for it. But you are flat out wrong. It's a black and white morality system. It's simple, it has flaws. You want depth? Play something else. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a princess to save from a dragon who's been terrorizing a kingdom.
>>47901972
>We have literal proof
>NUH UH NO YOU DON'T I'M NOT LISTENING LALALALA
Sure thing bro. It's one thing to have your own opinion, but it's shitty to be ignorant.
>>47901524
couldn't agree more
Its just furfaggotry for furries that are still in the closet.
>>47902720
This witch hunt shit never stops being hilarious.
>>47901524
monster girls are a great fetish you faggot
>>47902168
Go grab your examples and show me where its "cannon." And third party splat books don't count.
>>47894537
Wrong
> Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-good
Both of those example can be effected by both smite evil and smite good. Having a subtype alignment is have a aligment tag that does not go away even if you change alignment. The Succubus paladin is for the purpose of rules interacts counts as being all four alignments. Its is dum, but then again creatures having a different alignment then their sub-type is meant to be very rare. If a angle falls for example it is ( by 2e logic) to under go a metamorphosis into sometime of fiend not very long after because the being is now in conflict with its own nature.
>>47901972
>In third party stuff, yes. In core?
It was in a 2e adventure set in FR and was made by TSR. WOTC did not republish it for sell, but did host a free converted to 3.5 version on its website for several years. They took it down about a year after 4e hit the market along with their other free 2e to 3.5 conversions.
>>47885820
I appreciate this post.
>>47899918
Surprisingly they can't. RAW:
"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces. Until the end of your next turn, you know the location of any celestial, fiend, or undead within 60 feet of you that is not behind total cover. You know the type (celestial, fiend, or undead) of any being whose presence you sense,** but not its identity** (the vampire Count Strahd von Zarovich, for instance). Within the same radius, you also detect the presence of any place or object that has been consecrated or desecrated, as with the hallow spell."
So they know there's an X within 60 feet but they can't point them out in a crowd. Using it to ID a specific creature requires ensuring no other creatures are near it, which makes shifted or invisible creatures a threat to cause mis-identification.
>>47887512
"Reverse form of succubus energy drain" time for some sexual healing.
>>47880996
Nah. Smite the wee loli hellspawn.
>>47898261
No. Not at all.
>>47903447
>third party splat books don't count
Damn skippy.
>>47904359
Do not believe you.
