Why D&D and Pathfinder refuse to give fighter unarmed strike progression? I'm not saying the average fighter can handle hand to hand combat like an expert martial artist, but we all know every man trained to fight has, at least, basic hand to hand combat training.
Soldiers nowadays do it, and soldiers in the past did it too.
So.. what the fuck is this bullshit?
>>47789651
its a class based game not intended to simulate reality. Its gamification of tropes dude. They dont give him unarmed strike progression for the same reason "damage by weight of tnt" isnt a table; its not even a consideration for them
>>47789679
But it's so obvious.. the fighter should be the best fighting class, basic fighting-wise of course.
I don't expect a game to be 100% realistic but, come on, an expert fighter not knowing how to throw a punch? that's just stupid.
>>47789651
3.x is a meme.
>>47789723
so o ahead; add a table of fist progression to your game. Just dont expect THEM to make one for you dude
or if you want more realism out of your games, PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME
try GURPS, or core, or something else
>>47789731
What would you recommend to play a high fantasy game?
>>47789792
Lurk moar, newfag.
>>47789792
GURPS
Basic set, let people buy whatever, but make sure it fits the game theme
>>47789651
It would remove the Monk's viability. If you need to fight hand to hand, why choose a class that can't do anything beyond that?
>>47789841
see
>>47789679
>its a class based game not intended to simulate reality. Its gamification of tropes
>>47789651
Because it is pretty much monk niche being unarmed combat expert.
While fighter can use any weapons even the magical weapons.
In D&D 5e, the fighter can take Tavern Brawler to be compent fist-fighter/grappler. If they take Battle Master path they can pull off monk like moves.
>>47789792
I've heard good things about Fantasycraft on /tg/. I think GURPS probably works, or Savage Worlds or really any number of other systems. Branch out and try new things anon.
Why not just remove monk as a class, make fighters competent at hand to hand, and let you fluff a fighter as a monk if you so choose?
>>47789651
>Why D&D and Pathfinder refuse to give fighter unarmed strike progression?
Because that's Monk's turf. Well, that or Unarmed Swordsage.
And Fighter can become better unarmed combatant on Feats alone.
>>47789651
Soldiers nowadays are fucking worthless at h2h. If you go look at the military intramural tournaments you'll see every fighter use kickboxing and ignore those cancerous military styles like the plague.
>>47789841
Since when Monk is viable at all?
>>47790307
that's actually a good idea...
the problem is Monk would die taking with him a shitload of abilities.
>>47790404
Unchained monk is more than viable.
>>47790359
So? they can still fight decently without weapons.
>>47790307
I always turn unarmed/unarmored fighting into a series of feats. Seems to work well, since KUNG-FU is typically out of place. Had a player make a rogue who focused on disguise and unarmed/unarmored fighting, was kind of neat.
>>47790359
>>47790441
If I remember correctly their hand to hand combat is focused around getting an opening to use their weapon. Fluff your fighter as throwing a punch to open up an opportunity for a sword strike
>>47790441
No, they can't. The average soldier is about as good in a fight as the average body builder.
those who train combat sports to so on their own time and means, not as a part of job training.
>>47790471
If you can't hurt something with a sword then a punch won't help you.
>>47790359
Obviously they use kickboxing. Military fighting styles are usually based around quickly doing permanent disabling damage to an armed opponent, often while wielding a knife. What part of that is applicable to unarmed combat for sport?
>>47790542
I see you completely missed the point. You can hurt something with a sword, the punch is a distraction
>>47790359
>>47790503
>>47790542
>armchair martial artists
I see now that OP just want's someone to validate his idea. So yes OP you are a true visionary and fighters should be given unarmed progression :^)
>>47790404
2nd edition
>>47790193
Savage Worlds doesn't do barehanded fighting very well. It's strictly inferior to using a weapon without a handful of edges, and with them it still tops out at about the same amount of damage as you'd get out of a shortsword.
Still, no classes means anyone can take them if they meet the prerequisites
>>47790703
That makes sense in a realist sense. Assuming fighters of equal competence in their abilities the one with the sword is going to be able to hurt someone more than the unarmed fighter
>>47790594
I imagine moving in really really close despite not being able to penetrate his guard with a much longer and more damaging weapon would be somewhat distracting, of the "what the fuck is he oh fuck it I'll just stab him anyway" split second variety. Why the fuck would anyone want to use a sword in one hand and have the other hand free anyway, you use a two-handed sword or a sword and board.
>>47790503
Sure, but D&D is not modern combat at all, and was never intended to be. It's fantasy combat that draws heavily on European culture circa 1500 AD. Grappling/wrestling is a huge part of the historical European martial art, and is included in nearly every fencing manual of note from that era. It's similar to Pankration, Krav Maga, and other "combat" martial arts (as opposed to "sport" martial arts, although I understand the implicit problems with such a distinction. Let's leave that discussion for a different thread) in its focus on takedowns, joint locks, and neutralizing strikes (throat, solar plexus, groin, etc)
>>47790751
>isthisniggaforsrs.svg
Sorry about the potato camera.
>>47790732
Tell a lie, if you're willing to sink four edges into it you can hit a little bit harder than a shortsword (strength die +d6+2, as opposed to the sword's strength+d6). A good roll to hit with those edges will throw an extra d8 into that instead of the regular extra d6, which can get messy if your dice have a lucky streak and keep exploding upwards when you hit
>>47790838
Your shitty photo sure convinced me.
>>47789651
>Why D&D is shit
Because it's D&D, that's part of the appeal. Some people in the hobby are into masochism. This is their game.
>>47790856
I didn't feel like typing it out. It's still legible though, so you can go suck a cock.
>>47790542
>>47789651
>Why D&D and Pathfinder refuse to give fighter nice things?
>>47790888
Didn't feel like typing it out or photographing anything, so I'll just use this thing I found instead.
>>47789792
Savage Worlds, GURPS
>>47790918
>Provide primary source for fighters using swords in one hand while grappling with the other
>ur a fagit!
You've defeated me with your eloquent rebuttal.
>>47790985
>>provide primary source
>no source was provided
u wot m8
>>47790993
Source is Fiore de'i Liberi: Fior di Battaglia, Getty Manuscript, folio 20v. Enjoy.
>>47791096
And here's a page from Sword in Two Hands. Note that one play involves letting go of your own sword to grab your opponent's blade in your own unarmored hand.
Same source, 29r.
>>47791265
Take a look at the brawler base class. Maybe you could take a bit from the fighter and a bit from the monk and apply those bits to the brawler?
I never saw the fighter as the best at fighting, but rather a manner of fighting. The barbarian has rage, the rogue has finesse, the fighter has fightering.
>>47790307
That would be fuckin stupid.
Why not gestalt fighter and monk and actually have good saves and some other neat things like evasion, flurry, stunning fist, wholeness of the body, dimension step, high movement, etc?
If anything Brawler was almost the right solution to Fighter/Monk being lackluster.
>>47790404
5e Monk is pretty great actually.
>>47790685
Which 2e monk? The Fighting-Monk kit from the Complete Priest's Handbook? The class from The Scarlet Brotherhood? Something else?
>>47789651
fighters get extra feats which they can use to pick up unarmed fighting if thats what you want
>>47789651
Because a long time ago during the old days of AD&D, the first weeaboos decided to create the monk, killing off any unarmed combat for the fighter. It became popular in 3.xxx and it is now a core class.
In other words: blame Japan.
>>47790586
In other words, they're bullshido that's only good for instilling aggression and combative initiative.
>What part of that is applicable to unarmed combat for sport?
None, which is the problem, the mcdojo-tier styles like krav maga are shit because they emphasize low-percentage moves (eye pokes, groin strikes, gun disarms) rather than instilling a foundation of universal unarmed combat skills (accurate punching, defensive proficiency, grappling ability, footwork, etc) and adding "dirty" moves on top of said foundation.
>>47791716
I think he means the AD&D1e monk with the +4 dice of damage and the eleventy-million attacks per round in addition to semi-useful martial arts techniques to break walls, disable people, insta-kill from a range, walk on any surface, etc.
>>47796193
Joint strikes aren't dirty, but they're not suitable for sport. Instead of looking at things as "cheating" or "fair play", you should consider them "valid, but too dangerous for sport" or "suitable for sport".
>>47796897
>Joint strikes aren't dirty, but they're not suitable for sport.
Yes they are, see Jon Jones and his oblique kick. I call moves like gouges and groin strikes dirty because that's what everyone else in the martial arts community calls them, not because I myself see things as cheating and fair play moves.
> you should consider them "valid, but too dangerous for sport" or "suitable for sport".
That's too simple a view for these moves. An eye gouge is a "valid" technique in the sense that gouging someone's eyes is an effective way to damage them, but an eye gouge isn't a high-percentage technique (it isn't able to be done with the same level of consistency and success as something basic like a jab or double-leg takedown). This is the problem with a lot of the crowd who claim "military styles are t3h deadly", they think they can bypass the need for practical & fundamental fighting skills with theoretical knowledge of "dirty" techniques that they have never attempted on a resisting training partner or opponent.
>>47789810
Thanks for your contribution. Now fuck off.
>>>/out/
>>47789651
Because many years ago, Monte Cook (and to a lesser extent Mike Mearls) got beat up a lot by jocks at school, and so now they make sure the "big strong types' aren't allowed to have anything nice.
>>47790344
>swordsage
>with no sword
Hi /pfg/ I am nearly done with the Luchador homebrew I have been working on and I have you guys to thank for that. All that is left is to finish the personas, there are a few already done and they are heavily based on sorcerer bloodlines. I want to have at least a handful of viable personas done before I playtest it. Here is a link to the class
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PuHwR9uNL9zL2AGqUhYzOd47IJb22l1IK4aU1GxyYuU/edit?usp=sharing
I also need to make more Finisher and Submission level techniques. These are supposed to be more devastating and mystical, while the normal techniques are mundane. The technique list is here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ipxvQejtKTPkXRZjualQKDqn4V39qmoY4skZVaaW2TE/edit?usp=sharing
>>47789679
That table did exist in Space 1889, and oh my god was it a bitch.
"Versimilitude" can help a setting feel lived in tho I feel, honestly class systems should have more shared "skill trees" to grab from in games like d&d so you could get the training if ya wanted
>>47789792
REIGN with some Wild Talents
>>47790635
They're a bit overly dramatic but there's a kernel of truth to this. The military teaches hand to hand fighting as part of a weapons system. Always return to your weapon in some way and disable your enemy's weapon when you can't.
When my girlfriend started training in MMA, her coach was an ex-marine that springboarded off his hth training into MMA. He explained that it was just a baseline and motivation to get good at a real combat sport.
They shouldn't shit on the jarheads though. Their weapon system training makes perfect sense for their jobs and is a great baseline martial art. Pretty much any MA ever used by any military is at the very least a good baseline, such as Hapkido or JuJitsu.
>>47789792
Anima.
>>47789723
Then just fucking give Fighters unarmed strike progression you fucking retard.
Not going to unbalance the game or even MARGINALLY INCREASE THE POWER OF FIGHTERS because they're never going to fucking use it, which is probably why it isn't in the game by default. Nobody playing a Fighter is going to fucking bother 99% of the time unless you force them to be unarmed (prison escape) and even then it is only going to be temporary.
Also, don't settle pissy little 1v1 fistfights that only involve a single player in proper combat, settle it as a contested strength check. Saves everyone sitting around and looking at their phones for 15 minutes.
Your campaign is going to go like this.
>You: "I'm a pedantic little nitpicking bitch so Fighters also have unarmed strike progression."
>Fucknuts the Fighter: "Great another fucking number I'm not going to keep track of."
>Mongoloid the Monk: "I'm not concerned about this. Shit don't fucking matter, Chief Queef."
>You: "Silver coins are called Flajarbles, there are no elves instead there are Bjongles that are basically elves, humans get a +2 bonus to athletics checks to chase an animal for a week until it dies from exhaustion so long as your constitution score is above 16".
>3 hours later nobody remembers any of the stupid unimportant changes you made
>3 sessions later you stop bothering to remind people about any of the stupid unimportant changes you made
