Should a Paladin be allowed to lie without falling?
Yes obviously
>>47724516
depends on theoath/god
"Your father is dead, a young jedi named Darth Vader killed him."
No, it's in the rules for their vow that they can't take any dishonorable actions, which explicitly lists lying as an example.
>>47724582
This. Exactly. Paladins can't lie. Deal w/ it.
>>47724516
Well the main paladin god in my setting is a sun deity who is also a trickster god, so her paladins have a rather interesting oath.
>>47724546
Pretty much like this.
Paladins don't have to be Lawful Stupid. Prudence is a virtue, after all.
>>47724695
>her
Poor bastards.
In my setting paladins use innate magic that they interpret as divine. The gods if they exist are aloof and do not grant spells.
A "fallen" paladin is a cultural phrase and doesn't effect their in-game abilities.
>>47724582
so if a baddie comes up and asks him where the nearest orphanage is, the Paladin isn't allowed to misdirect him?
>>47725115
No. Hes allowed to stab him to death though.
>>47724516
It depends on the system, but unless his god has a specific rule against lying, I don't see why not. Lying isn't inherently evil.
>>47724516
Falling because you stepped out of line one time is retarded. It's bad roleplaying and it's bad world building.
>>47725140
say he's grossly outnumbered by them, and death is certain if he attacks them, then what?
>>47725140
Stabbing an unarmed man to death is dishonorable, you fall.
>>47724516
He posted it again, the absolute madman!
>>47725115
EXT. DAY. PALADIN IS TIED TO A TREE.
BAD GUY
- What is written on this scroll?
PALADIN, SWEATING
- P-pelor is shit...
BAD GUY, SMUG
-Das right
>>47725155
Ordinarily death would be certain, but when you have righteousness on your side anything is possible.
>>47724582
>>47724595
Depends on the rules and edition.
Hah.
>>47725155
The paladin still has the option to not respond. 2/10 got me to respond
The true benefit of threads like this is that it's trivially easy to spot folks who only know 3e D&D or never bothered to fully learn the rules of any other edition, because despite there being two editions PRIOR to 3e with very different rules and two editions AFTER 3e with different rules, they assume 3.x's rules are a universal standard.
>>47725234
This.
As much as I enjoyed my time playing 3.pf, I can tell Paladins can be vastly different from one another.
Also if you had the chance to play as a paladin in older editions. Most of the time you were just a Fighter because one of the requisite stats wasn't high enougj, and the DM wasn't such a dick about making the paladin fall, it was all on the player.
Of course alignments were much different and you had a penalty for changing it.
>>47724756
Women, amirite?
>>47724516
IF the paladin's oath says they cannot lie, they cannot lie.
Most paladins do not have such oaths.
In a dire situation of course a paladin can lie. paladins are embodiments of honor and justice, and sometimes a lie is more honorable than the truth. I would never punish a player using a justified lie that helps the greater good.
>>47725234
>Not exclusively playing 3.5
>Implying other editions are worth even looking at
>Implying other editions do anything correct
>Not using 3.5 as universal standard for all rules in every other TTRPG.
>Not using 3.5 to play shadowrun
>Not using 3.5 to play space games
>Not using 3.5 to play Mousegaurd
>Not using 3.5 to play pokemon
>To play Warhammer
>To play monopoly
>Do not pass go, roll initiative
>Go to jail, do not collect 200 gold peices
>Open lock is not your class skill, you are stuck there forever.
>MFW
>>47725362
Any vanilla paladins playing by 3.5 or Pathfinder stock paladin rules have such oaths.
It may not be the majority, but it's a large amount.
>Paladin is asked a paradoxical question
>Paladin falls
If I were to ask you if you would Kill an old lady for fun, would the answer to that question be the same as the answer to this question?
>Paladin has no correct answer without falling. Either he is lying or admitting he would murder innocent people for fun.
Falling paladins are stupid.
If the paladin does something to shift from LG then they should fall.
Lying doesnt cause an alignment shift.
>>47725492
He could refuse to answer.
>>47725517
refuses to answer and they poison the town's water supply hows about that
Paladins only fall when they act selfishly at the expense of others. And only then if it's a horribly egregious offense, or a pattern of lesser offenses.
>>47725568
that's what he was waiting for, smite evil!
>>47725342
It's a little ridiculous.
3.x's anal-retentive rules were like traditional Chinese medicine practices; complex, intricate, following a peculiar science of their own, and also wholly ineffective and nonsensical when compared to anything else in the same field.
>>47725608
>Paladin is captured, bound and placed in a circle against good.
>BBEG questions paladin
Where is the super good person who you are protecting from me and swore to save with your life, if you dont tell me I'll murder this entire family of super good people. When you tell me I will go rape the person and then kill them. You have 30 seconds.
>Option 1, truth: Paladin falls
>Option 2, Lie: Paladin falls
>Option 3, Silence: Paladin falls.
>>47725711
fuck off.
>>47725157
Only if that man was Nobility.
Get on the Person level, pleb.
>>47725234
>>47725342
>>47725376
>>47725384
>>47725662
Have you guys considered just forming a suicide pact already? Your endless shitposting won't ever change anything, but you might as well seek peace in your own fashion.
>>47725711
Why should he fall when this situation don't have any good solution. Unless his god isn't an hardass, he should be allowed to lie. Even then if he choose not to answer, why would the Paladin falls ? He couldn't do anything, it wasn't his fault.
>>47725711
Option 4, Punch the GM in the face and quit the game
>>47725832
>Someone citing legitimate flaws in a thing I like! LOLKILLURSELF.EXE
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Almost all of the asshats that come onto these threads and shit talk paladins are the same perpetuating stereotypical fedora DMs that are butthurt because nobody wants to play with because of their edgetarded views on how DnD is played.
Paladin is a great class and SHOULD be allowed to lie within the purview of the god they swear to if you're going by 3.5. Pathfinder is shit though, god awful shit.
If you're a 3.5e paladin, you must swear to a god and your lawful aspect aligns to what beliefs they hold to be sacrosanct, but at the same time, a Paladin is a Champion of GOODNESS not LAWFULNESS.
But they're supposed to follow legitimate authority? No, they RESPECT legitimate authority because good or evil, legitimate authority is legitimate for one reason or another. They don't have to FOLLOW the rules, only RESPECT them, which is why Diplomacy is in a Paladin's skill set, having the ability to do good in the face of those who do not want it is a key component to working within a kingdom's politics, but ultimately, the laws of a Paladin's god are only those that when broken, will make them fall.
This no lying bullshit in question is a load of bullshit because it's specific in question to acting with HONOR, and lists shit like lying being unhonorable. All of war is based upon deception. If a Paladin uses tactics like flanking, or concealing the numbers of his army for a tactical advantage, does he fall? Honor is a very loose way of saying "don't be a dick like the lawful good rogue." You shouldn't lie to your allies, but being deceptive to the lawful evil baron who is getting in the way of your doing good? Again, diplomacy is a skillset.
There is shit like helping the needy and protecting the innocent, and to punish those who threaten and harm them.
All of these tenants are equal to each other but removing the Paladin's ability to bend them, literally makes it impossible to perform their job. Thank god for 5e unfucking this fucking mess.
>>47725843
A well played Paladin might try to talk his way out or even plead, and when he failed, blame himself. He'd then continue to blame himself until he can put it right despite his god not stripping him of powers or title because it obviously wasn't his fault.
>>47724546
I can kind of see how someone could name their child Darth if their last name was really Vader in Star Wars, but I just wonder why the Jedi would let a kid with a name like that in.
>>47725860
>legitimate
Nice try, frogposter.
>>47725874
Fucking this. A Paladin is ultimately still a human.
Humans are ultimately flawed creatures.
A Paladin is a flawed Human ultimately trying to make the world a less flawed place by bringing more good into it.
As long as he ultimately tries and does do good, and his actions, by the majority, result in good, and he doesn't ignore the blatant evil before him for selfish reasons, a god should not make them fall.
Sometimes a Paladin will fail in their task.
But they're still just flawed mortals trying to do the best they can.
Its the sign of a bad paladin if they forget what lead to their failure in the first place.
>>47725947
Have you seen the Jedi Council? They got a guy with no legs, and a guy with a giant long, easily slashable neck.
Affirmative action could get Space Dutchmen into the order no problem.
>>47725981
best version of a Paladin in modern media is probably Movie version Captain America. Nice, polite to a near fault, loyal but not blindly so, generally honest to friends and allies, trying to do good within a system etc.
The important thing is they do their best. Not because they like having powers or like having rank. But because its whats right.
>>47724516
Yes, it's called a grey guard.
>>47725964
people lie all the time. not always telling the truth is a thing that human beings HAVE to do to function in a society.
RAW 3.pf doesn't allow Paladins to lie. At all. Not that this was necessarily the way it was intended when written, just that it was written poorly and the kind of autists that cling only to one edition because its actual strengths hit their tG spots too fucking hard took the poor phrasing and interpreted the rules however they want to make it fit their fedora.
>>47725832
>shitposting
>pointing out things that worked in older editions.
Yeah, nah.
>>47726068
It sounds like you just like to nitpick and pretend you have something worthy to say.
>>47726723
congratulations on outing yourself as not having actually read the post.
>>47726767
What part of "this little rule that most people ignore isn't something you should ignore" was worth reading?
I would say the paladin should be okay as long as he falls down on something soft like a mattress, but if the paladin wants to avoid damage/looking like and idiot he should probably sit down like a normal person before he does.
>>47727110
the guy i was responding to was telling everyone with criticisms of the rule, as written, in 3.pf to kill themselves. because the people who think paladins would fall for telling a fucking white lie cite the 3.pf RAW as their reason.
the people who criticize 3.pf are actively pointing out that you HAVE to ignore that rule to make the class usable. but loljnope they should suicide because fucking chicken tendies up there can't stand to have his special interests scrutinized.
then some fuck-wit dismissed my defense of valid criticism by going "omg he posted a frog joke" and called it a day.
you are so fucking retarded or illiterate or both that you think i'm arguing against the whole fucking point of my post.
>>47727400
No, he's telling you to quit bitching.
And here you are, still bitching.
Bitching, without really thinking, and bitching like you think your opinion is the only right way to do things.
Really, suicide is probably the only way you'll ever stop bitching, so you might want to consider it for everyone's sake.
>>47727460
>i can't put forward a counter argument so ill just spaz out in random directions.
it was a sad day when you slithered out of the abortion bucket
>>47727502
What counter argument is needed?
You're acting like nitpicking is a valid criticism, and you're really putting a lot of value into your opinions. It's a damn shame you think you can force people to care beyond the limits of telling you to stop whining.
>>47725947
At the time, he was the only Darth in the galaxy. Until the prequels came out I always assumed it was some kind of title of space nobility.
>>47725115
Being sworn to tell the truth doesn't stop you from simply not giving the directions to the most flammable orphanages
>>47725157
Oddly enough I feel like there's more precedent for lying being against their code than that
Does anyone have the screencap from MR RAGE where he explains why, if ever, a paladin should fall?
>>47725155
>it's a good day to die
>>47725165
BAD GUY
- What is written on this scroll?
PALADIN, SWEATING
-Heresies and lies
Problem solved.
>>47724582
>>47724595
>One strike, you're out
Seriously, shiggy diggy
>>47727785
Came here to post this. The ADnD guide to Paladins points out the same principle through the fine art of LG trolling.
Sir Geffen is a bit of a ridiculous figure, but either being a Paladin counts for something or it doesn't.
>Not playing a smug ass paladin who never lies but speaks in intricate riddles
Get on my level, you DEUSVULT shitposters.
>>47728857
>tfw i used deus vult before it was cool
Paladins should not be able to fall, ever.
>>47724516
Depends.
>>47729710
That's how they operate in my setting. Paladins and clerics don't get their powers from god or even an ideal, they just have them because they're born that way, and nothing can take them away or change them.
>>47728857
This is how you should play it. If you want to play as a paladin you have certain rules and you have to be honorable. If you don't want to tell the truth, then get smart enough so that you can twist it without breaking it.
>>47724546
Fun fact: in the dummy script given to most of the Empire Strikes Back cast (i.e. every single cast member with the SOLE EXCEPTION of James Jones), this was supposed to lead up to a huge reveal that Kenobi was actually playing the Rebellion (especially Luke) for suckers, and that Vader actually had nothing to do with Anakin's death. Only in Jones's script did it establish that Vader and Anakin were one and the same.
In fact, Luke's near-tantrum at the end of the movie was entirely ad-libbed by Mark Hamill when the director finally dropped the bombshell to him personally: the script he was given was a fake.
>>47734096
Yep. Allegedly Harrison Ford told Hamill afterwards that he had overacted.
>>47724516
Depends on the setting and how hardcore you want/demand that paladins be.
You could go Inquisition mode where any goes so long as it is directly in support of a good cause.
Or you could go full Chivalry mode where even tame stuff like lying and attacking during surprise rounds are off limits.
>>47724516
Depends. Do they view good as a sum total of a person's actions, or as a series of categorical imperatives?
>>47728857
So, an Eldar?
/tg/ over the years has radicalized me in my views on what all can make a paladin fall.
When I first started coming here, I was definitely more on the restrictive side, but now I'm full on Stalinist USSR level of falling.
That's not even what I wanted to post, but anyway...
It always has seemed to me that the opponents of paladins falling seem to never really actually be arguing for player agency. They seem to want to get all of the additional powers of being a paladin without any of the restrictions that balance them.
Thou shalt not lie isn't even a commandment in Judeo-Christianity, and those guys have sticks up their asses.
>>47734674
Wow, that's some major baiting.
It would depend on the lie.
>>47734346
I think with lying its about intent. Lying for personal gain is a no-no. Lying to protect someone shouldn't make you fall. White lies shouldn't happen for role play reasons.
Paladins are a terrible class that severely diminish the quality of the game for everyone else. They are only ever interested in harming and outright killing their party members, and it is their presence in the rules that makes everyone shriek at the possibility of removing the worst part about D&D, alignment.
>>47734919
Nah, Paladins are great.
>>47734919
If you can't roleplay a paladin, know when its appropriate to play them, and work with your dm to determine whats allowable in the game you suck.
Also
> They are only ever interested in harming and outright killing their party members
I'm pretty sure that's only if your a LG pally in a CE group.
>>47734863
I can see where you're coming from, but at the same time too, I do firmly believe in the higher standard for pallys. I'm not saying I'd necessarily like to see them fall for a little white lie here and there, but even if the player running the pally is kinda dumb, they still have that high wisdom and charisma scores that should provide the tools needed to get out of most any situation without lying.
>>47724516
Yes.
why do so many people have a hard on for paladins falling? some people make characters that take everything that's not nailed down and some people make murder hobos. however as soon as someone tries to make a paladin (even if it's one where they DON'T have a stick up their ass) the knee jerk reaction is "make them fall. it'll be funny. haha you didn't go munchkin during character creation". why is that? is character creation that petty a process?
>>47735860
The thing is, they don't.
>>47735860
I've never made a paladin fall but I hate the shit out of them. Every paladin player I've ever GMed for has been nothing but a nuisance interested in starting party conflict.
“This is an absurd moral, for you and I both know that sometimes not only is it good to lie, it is necessary to lie.” ~Lemony Snicket
>>47735924
maybe it's just my dumb luck then. every time i'm on here and i see a paladin thread it goes on about how paladins have a stick up their ass, OR it's some paladin facing an orc baby conundrum, OR it's a thread about how to make a paladin workable but some fart knocker from the previous two examples decided to pop in with their two cents.
>>47735941
that's more a reflection on the players than the class itself. then again i don't know ALL the circumstances of ALL the paladins from your games.
>>47736031
Because it's a /tg/ meme going back basically as long as this board has been around.
>>47724516
Paladins should be expected by all and especially by their peers to be always honest, but the oaths themselves should say nothing on it,
>>47725861
It's scary how people don't realize how right you are.
My take is that lying is a Chaotic act. Paladins won't fall for telling /one/ lie they way they would for one Evil act, but lie enough and it eventually adds up to Neutral Good.
>>47724582
> "H...How did Daddy die?"
> "He was impaled by a barbed spear. He died soiling himself and crying. I told him he had to hold on a little longer, but he begged to be put out of his misery. His last words were: 'I don't care if I never see my little girl again, just make it stop.'
> I am very, very sorry for your loss."
Versus:
> "He died bravely, fighting to the end."
>>47724516
Sometimes the rules of society and morality would both dictate that lying is the proper course in a given circumstance, so yes.
Depends on the objective of the lie. If it's critically important for the pally to lie as to uphold his obligation to protect the innocent of preserve order? Then yes, lying (or more likely witholding truths) should be acceptable, but only if there's no immediate alternative. If telling the truth would get the job done just the same, there's problem.
If the purpose of the lie is to inflict harm on the undeserving or avoid the consequences of ones own mistakes, then there should be the possibility of that paladin falling.
A paladin's enemies shouldn't be able to use him as some sort of retarded magic mirror to further their insidious schemes. And explaining in exquisite detail about how a girl's father died due to violent diarrhea while travelling with his fellow soldiers might not be the best idea, either.
>>47736567
"'Forgive me. I--I--have mourned so long in silence--in silence. . . . You were with him--to the last? I think of his loneliness. Nobody near to understand him as I would have understood. perhaps no one to hear. . . .'
"'To the very end,' I said, shakily. 'I heard his very last words. . . .' I stopped in a fright.
"'Repeat them,' she said in a heart-broken tone. 'I want--I want--something--something--to--to live with.'
"I was on the point of crying at her, 'Don't you hear them?' The dusk was repeating them in a persistent whisper all around us, in a whisper that seemed to swell menacingly like the first whisper of a rising wind. 'The horror! The horror!'
"'His last word--to live with,' she murmured. 'Don't you understand I loved him--I loved him--I loved him!'
"I pulled myself together and spoke slowly. "'The last word he pronounced was--your name.'
"I heard a light sigh, and then my heart stood still, stopped dead short by an exulting and terrible cry, by the cry of inconceivable triumph and of unspeakable pain. 'I knew it--I was sure!' . . . She knew. She was sure. I heard her weeping; she had hidden her face in her hands. It seemed to me that the house would collapse before I could escape, that the heavens would fall upon my head. But nothing happened. The heavens do not fall for such a trifle. Would they have fallen, I wonder, if I had rendered Kurtz that justice which was his due? Hadn't he said he wanted only justice? But I couldn't. I could not tell her. It would have been too dark--too dark altogether.
-Heart of Darkness.
>>47725606
this.
>>47724516
There's a difference between tact and lying
>>47728857
>playing a Sidhe Paladin
>>47724516
I think the reason for that lie would matter. A lie for the greater good would probably require some sort of penance, but no falling.
I mean, there isn't just falling as a punishment for paladins.
>>47724516
Well, hopefully. I'd like to imagine everyone would like to be able to lay down without falling off their bed.
>>47725861
One thing wrong there - in 3.5, you don't have to swear to a god. You can be a paladin for the sake of goodness. It's right there in the handbook.
Personally, I feel that 5e worked a little too broad with its brush in removing any real alignment restrictions from paladins. Newbies will find alignment to give a good sense of what they should be doing with this character; experienced players can handwave it if they want to - no one complains if a monk is Chaotic or a Bard is Lawful. People act like alignment is some sort of impassable barrier when it's really just a set of kiddie wheels and 'flavor-enhancers' that really mean little in the grand scheme of the game.
>>47737873
Dude
>>47734919
Rogues are a terrible class that severely diminish the quality of the game for everyone else. They are only ever interested in harming and outright killing their party members, and it is their presence in the rules that makes everyone shriek at the possibility of removing the worst part about D&D, alignment.
No seriously, Chaotic Neutral rogues are horrible, and I've never seen one that wasn't a backstabbing dick, or didn't try to become king of the party thinking they were some manipulative mafioso.
>>47724516
Well, depends on the circumstances...
>>47724516
It's actually unrelated, but I have a story in my mind, where a sort of/upcoming paladin, becomes your stereotyp BBEG.
>>47724546
Technically that's true, from a certain point of view.
>>47725711
The paladin would fall, to protect the one he is sworn to, thus redeeming himself instantly.
>>47724516
I don't know, what did they swear in their oath?
>>47724541
/thread
>>47725492
>No, I would not kill an old lady fun
>Ha! So why would you kill her then?
>For summoning demons or something, probably.
silence ensues
>>47724516
Only if the surface on which the paladins lies is not convex.
>>47734346
As Anons said, it depends on the deity. It depends on the personality.
A fanatic paladin, for example, won't lie, because he believes that God and truth are on his side, he believes that the one truth, the truth of his god, and the truth of his purpose is unbreakable, and everything he says should be accepted, and should further his purpose, no matter what. I hope I'm explaining this well enough. So, when he lies, he betrays his pristine purpose. He doesn't believe in it hard enough to achieve it through truth and justice. Pushing through the pain of truth, and all its difficulties. Lying is a crack in the faith of your goal.
Let's say a more leisurely paladin knows that by lying he's just doing what needs to be done to achieve his goals, which are for his deity.
So yeah, if the fanatic lies, make him fall. If a more leisurely paladin lies, cut him some slack.Does that make sense? It depends on setting, paladin, and deity.
>>47740662
>fanatic paladin
If you're not playing a paladin as a fanatic, you're doing literally everything wrong.
>>47725568
>>47725711
this is reaching trolley levels
>>47728857
>"Did you kill this man? "
>"I just got here"
>mfw I just got here and finished killing him
Is a overly motherly paladin who when catching the party or some on else doing harmless but immoral actions slaps them on the wrist and gives them a good stern talking to still in the range of a paladin?
>>47734919
And then you post the Fortress, aka the "You must have one in the party or die" class. What point are you trying to even make?
>>47743843
Fortress is a far better class than paladin in every way, and D&D would be vastly better replacing paladin with Fortress.
Paladins have mechanics that are designed to make the game less fun, encourage intraparty conflict, and provide life support to the single worst aspect of D&D, alignment.
>>47743712
Probably. I always took the 'ignorance is bliss approach,' where the party would just have to sneak past old dad paladin when they wanted to go hang out with their friends.
>>47735860
The thing about being a good DM is that you take your PCs' strengths and weaknesses and you integrate them into the story, otherwise what was the point of taking those strengths and weaknesses in the first place? Sure, you can give your Paladins all the chances in the world to shine, but if those moments aren't earned through suffering and the chance to fall, they don't shine as brightly in comparison.
D&D isn't about giving your players a free ride through the country, winning the day and saving the princess. It's about putting obstacles in their path that make the journey interesting, that challenge them so that when they do win, they enjoy it all the more.
So if one of your players chooses to make a Paladin, let him do that, but do put in moral quandaries that could make him Fall. Doing otherwise takes away one of the biggest parts of being a Paladin.
Of course, you shouldn't over do it either. Don't be That GM that puts unwinnable situations in front of the Paladin and then punishes him for them. Hell, putting unwinnable situations that are there solely to punish the players is a sign of a bad GM in the first place, but especially so for Paladins, because they don't just die, they lose all the power they've built up until that point. It's easy enough to roll up a new character. It's less so when your character is still around, but is now basically a commoner with better stats.
>>47744664
> but is now basically a commoner with better stats.
You know, retraining is a thing that exists. A fallen Paladin can just retrain into a Fighter or something.
>>47744664
I agree with a fair bit of what you're saying, especially the unwinnable situations part. But having a moral quandary that could end in falling seems like a low blow.
I don't think falling should be treated like a choice, but more as a punishment for a paladin that's not doing the right thing. If you kill the orc baby outright, that'd be worthy of falling. But if you just give them an option of A or B, and B is definitely falling, a player will feel railroaded into taking A. B feels more like a roadblock than a legitimate choice.
Even aside from that, there is a lot, lot more to a paladin than just the possibility of falling. You could force them to chose between two different kinds of goodness that don't want anything to do with each other, or how lawful they should be acting, or if something that they do is worthwhile for the greater good or if they should never compromise their principles. Again, falling isn't a fun option - a game shouldn't punish for making a 'wrong' choice, but should punish for a specific wrong action. I'm not wording it well, but I hope you get what I mean with that. Killing the orc baby, falling.
>>47744875
>retrain into fighter
so basically a commoner with better stats
>>47739309
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSOBeD1GC_Y
Jedi bullshit as a matter of course then weasel out of it like champions.
>>47724516
Depends on the setting, depends on the oath, depends on the god.
For me typically yes. I don't think lying is inherently evil and it is sometimes necessary to get out of or in to situations. Of course somebody could have a vow of truth and be required to tell the truth no matter what. Then lying would obviously result in a fall.
>>47744875
But a paladin is basically a fighter that's slightly weaker martially, but with the trade-off that they're better at hitting evil things, resisting some magical effects, and using some utility sorts of divine spells. Why would you want to go from all that to meatshield, and a slightly unoptomized one at that?
>>47747089
>Why would you want to go from all that to meatshield, and a slightly unoptomized one at that?
You generally wouldn't, but if you fall it's not like you need to kill yourself.
I can easily see a spited paladin taking his fall in stride and adopting a sensible life philosophy in the wake of what he sees as a betrayal by his god.
>>47742287
Jesus what
