What are essential novels you need to read to run a decent game?
>>47627383
The rule book for that game.
>>47627383
Decent game of what?
You want to know the best method for learning how to run a game? mYou pick up the GURPS books about the genre you like. Not the core book, just the splats. And you read those, skipping over the 10-15 pages of rules. Because GURPS splats concentrate on "how to run this genre, with sidebars on genre mixing and GM hints and suggestions". You can never go wrong reading a GURPS splatbook for ideas and information on how to run good games of any sort.
>>47627443
Can confirm. I don't even really like the GURPS system, but the splatbooks are full of great information about whatever you could want.
There are no essentials. There are, however, plenty of great books that might as well be.
This list is pretty good for D&D. It comes from the back of the 5e players guide, and was built up from Gygax's own original list.
>>47627383
Nothing is "necessary" really, just read the rulebook
Otherwise, if you want to just borrow ideas from older literature, just look for whatever fits the game you're going to run. If it's going to be D&D or something of the sort you could just read up on some mythology, which most people have such a poor knowledge of almost any idea you rip off from it will seem like a clever twist of a common literary trope even if it was the fucking original
You can also read Howard and Tolkien if you have the time
War and Peace.
The Bible.
The Count of Monte Cristo
>>47627571
This. Also Three Musketeers.
>>47627383
>>47627432 is the only specific answer.
I don't think any specific book is essential for running a game.
That said, you should be well-read if you ever want to be creative. Believe it or not, those Scholastic posters you saw in grade school were right and reading is good for your mind. The best writers are the ones who read a lot.
I would actually recommend reading "On writing" by Stephen King. A lot of the discussion within that can be applied to worldbuilding and running a TTRPG.
>>47627383
Lord of the Rings. It's a shining bright example how not to run a campaign.
>>47628279
The Lord of the Rings is a great example of how to build a world, but it would be an awful campaign, yeah. It's still definitely one of the best recommendations for making a fantasy campaign though, due to its immense influence on the genre. Understanding Middle Earth will help you understand fantasy conventions.
>>47627514
underrated
>>47627383
I wouldn't say "essential", but the Ketty Jay series by Chris Wooding gave me thousands of ideas.
Drunken debauched sky-pirates with shotguns, jet-fighters, demon-possessed steel golems and ADVENTUUUUURE!
>>47628575
The fantasy conventions in Lord of the Rings are so far removed from modern kitchen sink fantasy tropes there's no point in comparing them.
It's nothing like what most people associate with your average D&D game.
>>47627383
Gary gygax once wrote a book entitled "on worldbuilding". I can only recommend that. 3.5 had a dming for dummies book. And if you are going to run a campaign involving Espionage or necromancy of any kind, then I strongly recommend necroscope by Brian Lumley it's actually a collection of seven or eight books, but the first one is the only one that I think you really need.
>>47627383
Blood Meridian
>>47627443
This guy is right.
>>47627514
Even as an atheist, there's a surprising amount of cool weird thematic shit in there.
>>47627476
>no Harrison
>no Borges
Oof. But really, you should read anything. Anything can give you inspiration for games.
Blood Meridian for gritty anything or low fantasy.
The Artemis Fowl series for magitek or rogues.
Anything by Neil Gaiman, especially Neverwhere, for urban fatasy.
Stephen King's The Dark Tower for how to get a good Fantasy Kitchen Sink going.
Eragon to know exactly what not to do.
>>47627383
Lots of them, anon. Just reading plenty of decent books will give you a good feel of when a campaign needs to speed up, when it needs to let off, when comedy relief is needed, when to up the pressure and when to let the characters breathe. A feel for basic storytelling is far better for a game than anything else. I can't tell you how many games I've been in where the DM gets all the details down, but can't tell the tale.
>>47633538
Care to explain why not Eragon?
>>47627383
Play Dirty by John Wick
So you know what not to do.
>>47628279
It's awesome for seeing how mood is built and how to make a world engaging without having something die every few seconds. It's also important that the reader compare what is actually Tolkenesque to what so many wrongfully assume is Tolkenesque.
So pretty much this >>47629095
Also:Conan is bloody and fantastic but it is rarely gritty in tone. In fact it is very much heroic. The characters themselves may have grit but the stories flow smoothly to capacitate glorious hacking, slashing and general swashbuckling.My point is that much like Tolkien many fa/tg/uys tend to just absorb the popular opinions of various fiction, instead of coming to their own conclusions. The same lines about authors' works are repeat over and over again, the same way like clockwork. I doubt many here have tactually read Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkien or Vance./tg/ has a bad habit of not playing the games it talks about or reading the books it loves. This is a hobby all about personal creativity and initiative. Say what you will about Gygax and Arneson but they knew what they liked and weren't afraid to use what they liked in making games. They didn't need to ask permission, or consider fantasy conventions they just made the game theirs. They had something to love and something to share. I think they expected the same of us./tg/ as a whole is timid and often small minded in the way it thinks about games. Whatever you're going to read, read it before you look it up on wikipedia. And play those fucking games. Don't worry about shit like that-guys or originality or tradition, just play the fucking game you want play.
While it's not a novel I would suggest the short stories by Clark Ashton Smith. He's a weird fiction writter that doesn't get nearly enough love. You can probably find his stuff online. Abominations of Yondo is a fun place start and the Charnel God is one of his iconic stories.
>>47634182
The first book is basically the classic Hero's Journey scheme. You could even say it's all a huge star wars ripoff, with Brom being so reminiscent of Obi-Wan, the kid being the "chosen successor of an order of knights that upheld the peace with magic until they were betrayed by a young and angsty guy that founded the Empire" and the magic swords with shining blades in varied colors.
.
The setting of the book is just. So. Fucking. Tired. Literally everything in Eragon is based on some D&D cliche. The author didn't put any effort on giving the smallest twist on Generic Fantasy Land. Not in a "White Walkers are just fancy fair folk wendigos" way, in a "the greatest thing he does is change the name Ogre to Urgal and giving them horns" way. If you ever played a basic D&D campaign with a beginner DM, you will know exactly how every character will react to every situation, and how every race/faction will behave.
It only gets worse from then on. The sequel tries to be more "fluffy", giving more detail and worldbuilding, like showing elven ceremonies and dwarven religion and whatever. And every time the author tries to get out of his comfort zone and invent a bit himself, he shoves his foot up his own mouth. More than half the second book is spent on the elven lands, and it ended giving me a years burnout of playing elvish characters.
>>47634182
>>47635397 has it right.
Eragon is a perfect example of how someone took the advice "well nothing is original" and completely failed to learn something use from it. Everything in that series is something we've all seen a million times before, with more than a few moments taken straight out of other works.
Saying "nothing is original" is no excuse for lack of imagination. And "unimaginative" describes Eragon perfectly.
>>47627383
None. I'm illiterate and have run games fine. Reading is for losers.
>>47635397
>>47635478
It's written by a kid who took what he liked and put it into a book. You are judging it far too harshly, presumably because you are jealous and feel you could have done better.
As a first effort by a kid writer, it's bloody remarkable. And the fact that it didn't pull any lame 'whitewalker tweest' out of its ass is a good thing. Seriously, not everything needs to have a tweest to be ooh so edgy and cool. ffs.
>>47635732
And like that, a wild Eragon fanboy shows up to tell us off for shitting on his series.
Honestly, the fact it was written by a kid who just "took what he liked and put into a book" doesn't change the fact it's not a good example of worldbuilding or even storytelling. It really only reinforces the point.
And nice potshot at GRRM. There's a lot you can praise and criticize about his writing. But the white walkers aren't really a tweest considering they're established in literally the first chapter of the very first book.
>>47635804
HA! Wrong!!
Just a reasonable person, asshat.
If you proffer whitewalkers as a tweest, then i will use them as a tweest, moron.
Never ever said Eragon was anything; I merely said you were shitting on it for no purpose. And here you are continuing to prove my point!
Never read it, but you shitting on it is just plain weak - maybe you should write your own, eh?
Seriously, expecting a child to write a perfect fantasy novel is pretty dumb, anon. Shake your head.
>>47635974
Anon that ACTUALLY wrote the post here.
White Walkers are not a twist. They are wendigo/fairies/necromancers. The ingredients are there if you piece it apart. But you must actually think a bit and piece it apart to see them.
Now Eragon doesn't do that. There are the Urgals. They are D&D Ogres/Orcs in appearance, in behavior, in powers, in everything. BUT THEY HAB TEH HORNZ! You can literally tell they were going to be the evil mook race in the first book, then leave the emperor in the second once he "acts dishonorably" (because apparently literally killing the last Dragon Knight with a kick to the balls and stealing the crowns wasn't dishonorable). Because that's the Dumb Proud Warrior Race stereotype they follow to the letter.
White walkers are a pie. Eragon is a bag of flour, carton of milk and egg in a plate.
>pls don't be a meanie, he was like 15 man
And... does that allows him to write poorly... how? He made a book, good on him. He may grow into something better. But Eragon is shit. If something is shit, the I will bloody say it is shit. He being a kid doesn't mean I can't do that.
>>47636245
Oh, fuck off, tripfag.
>muh, it's shit if i say it's shit!
>muh, grrm is god-tier, don't shit on grrm!!!!
Just fuck off. Give the kid a fucking break, and fuck right off. You clearly have superior tastes. You clearly know what true fantasy ought to be. You clearly are the expert on all things fantasy. Tell us more about grrm's 'pie'; you are so clearly the expert, tripfag - amaze us! Tell us more about how an author with some 20 + years of experience can write a book with more depth than one written by a 15 year old?
Faggot.
>>47627514
>The Bible.
Top pick.
>>47636461
>Not knowing the difference between a tripfag and a namefag
Look at this newfag.
>>47636245
>Eragon is a bag of flour, carton of milk and egg in a plate.
This is the most accurate description of the series I've read.
>>47636461
Two can play that game.
Something something summer early
something something you must be 18 or older
something something... whatever. Eragon is horrible. Deal with it.
>>47636646
>something something you must be 18 or older
Shitposting has no age maximum, anon.
I honestly can't tell if this dude is bait or not.
I would recommend The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath by H.P. Lovecraft. It's good to experience some pre-Tolkien fantasy.
>>47637107
YES.
>>47627476
not a single fucking Arthurian book? But they list fucking Kingkiller?
>>47637107
In a similar vein, the Gods of Pegana by Lord Dunsany are worth checking out for a look at building a cosmology/pantheon.
>>47637107
holy fuck, yes.
pic very related.
Snow Crash, for anything cyberpunk.
>>47627383
Hour of the Dragon.
>>47637390
Are you implying that they have objectively good taste?
>>47638351
Hardwired is a better cyberpunk option.
>>47627861
>The best writers are those who read a lot
I read shitloads and I still have the writing style of a sixth grader.
>>47627432
The only good post this thread will contain.
>>47639061
Anon should have included "and write a lot".
>>47627383
Mein Kampf
>>47635732
so was Mein Kampf
>>47637390
what are some good arthurian books for someone who doesn't know shit about it except what they gathered from Fate/stay night and common knowledge?
>>47637107
I've read something like 20 or more of his stories but never this particular one. How is the feel compared to his standard "mortal man sees otherwordly being, goes insane" stories?
>>47627383
Heinlein's Starship Troopers. It's not just a fairly good insight into the mentality of a soldier. It's also been ripped off by lots of sci-fi tabletop games, like Warhammer 40k; knowing the source material's source material is a good thing.
Inheritance Cycle was good. It's a fun series with cool moments and colorful characters. Cry more.
>>47641595
Just imagine if said mortal man was in a dream state and knew his shit enough to just wing it and actually interact with the otherworldly beings. It feels kinda like a fable, in the sense that the ones who generally don't talk(and just make the people go insane) are more than willing to either demonstrate hostility or cooperate with the protagonist(unlike the usual apathy higher beings generally show in his stories.
>>47627476
>No Eddings
>No Hobb
>>47627383
anything by Dan abnett
I'm not saying he's great literature, but you can't do better for putting an adventuring party in interesting situations
>>47640846
Almost the only thing notable about Mein Kampf is the person who wrote it, and then only because of the massive shitstorm he caused.
>>47641595
basically think LOTR but on a shitload of drugs
>>47635651
Then how did you read OP's post?
>>47639000
Read both, and Neuromancer.
>>47641695
You may have enjoyed it, which is fine, but it contributes nothing new and everything within it is a stale rip-off of something else.
>>47635974
Man, for a reasonable person you tend to call people morons a lot, don't you? Everything you've written sounds like the most defensive, butthurt nonsense. Instead of trying to bring some perspective on the discussion you shit on people. There's no such thing as shitting on a book for no reason, it's an opinion. You give opinions and people judge the opinion on it's merrits, not it's reason of being or the person who gave it. Also, what the fuck kind of world do you live in where you can't judge something without having done the same thing. Reading a book and writing one are two seperate things. I dislike the movie Looper and I don't need to have made a time-travelmovie to know it's a terrible movie.
>>47642608
Damn, I ate the bait didn't I?
>>47636674
18 or older is an age minimum though
>>47642412
Haven't actually read it, but doesn't it endorse genocide?
>>47627383
War & Peace by Tolstoï.
>>47642919
Oh, I remember these bloated tomes from my school days. Frenchaboo nobility, le love stories, colourfully described soldier life, masons, Bezuhov character development (a good one), moar boring love stories...
>>47641397
Your mind is poisoned by Type Moon cancer so I'd suggest you read nothing
>>47627383
It depends entirely on the tone, theme and scope of your game.
No novels are essential though.
It just helps a ton if you want to run anything that's not a World of Warcraft dungeon.
My best GM's have invariably been the ones who read the most books, because they have way more stuff to steal from and take inspiration from, which makes them way better at improvising.
It also helps in creating worlds that feel complete and grounded, and not just a white map dotted with dungeons.
I honestly think that a lot of GM's would learn a lot more by reading than by writing.
I'd pick the guy who makes the game feel alive and open ended because he's constantly pulling plot inspiration and characters from a ton of books he read, over the one who uses GMing as an outlet for creative writing and forces us to act out his speshul babby's first novel plot every time.
Awesome greentext stories on /tg/.
>>47641397
A good combo would be T.H. White's The Once and Future King along with Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy (starts with The Crystal Cave).
Those are novels that tell their own story with the existing Arthur mythos as a jumping-off point. If you want a retelling of the Morte D'Arthur in modern English then I recommend Steinbeck's Acts of King Arthur and His Noble Knights
>>47627383
Just read enough good novels that you're a complete human being, and don't limit yourself to genre crap
>>47641397
Le Morte D'Arthur
Idylls of the King
Four Arthurian Romances
Once and Future King
Story of King Arthur and His Knights by Howard Pyle
>>47643802
These actually make games worse.
>>47637107
Hm, from thoes I already read that is probably one of the least liked by me. But probably only, because I found it a bit harder to read as the others (reading in english and I'm not native speaker).
Maybe I should reread it at some point.
>>47643874
I'd personally recommend Roger Lancelyn Green's King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table over Steinbeck for a relative newcomer to the lore like >>47641397.
>>47642497
> taking the bait
>>47627443
I found GURPS Ultratech somewhat annoying and dated feeling, personally, but the other books have been generally solid.
>>47641397
Chretien De Troyes did the best Arthurian stuff.
The Knight with the Lion and the Knight of the Cart are where it's at, friend. And his grail story is better and less dogmatic and preachy than most of the other ones, but it doesn't actually have an ending.
>>47645059
Which UTech? 4e or 3e?
Do you guys know any schlocky fantasy to read on my morning train ride? Not complete dreck but something simple and doesn't take too much thinking about.
>>47627383
Tintin books and Candide by Voltaire. At least for me the adventures end up seeming kind of like them where the party goes on a whirlwind tour of the world where crazy things happen one after another without pause.
>>47635732
>>47635974
>>47636461
It would be fine to leave it as a fair first attempt by a kid writer if it didn't get all the critical acclaim and a goddamn movie deal out of it. Once something is in that spotlight you can't defend it with saying it's being judged to harshly.
It flew to high and you can't blame the sun for being to hot.
Now, this isn't exactly the writer's fault, you can't control the fame you receive but you also can't have it both ways. Just because it was written by a kid doesn't mean it's beyond reproach.
Frankly, falling back on defending it as being written by a kid strikes me as more of an insult, compared to the other anons critique of its contents.
>>47639061
All writers are readers but not all readers become writers.
Sorry. But hey, practice makes perfect.
>>47642608
>Looper
>terrible movie
I dunno, I seems like a decent short story from the 70s to me. What are your specific gripes with it? Just trying to improve my taste, no bully pls.
>>47645151
Don't listen to internet randos for tastemaking. Listen to yourself. If you liked it, you liked it. If they didn't, they didn't.
>>47645095
The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan
>>47645095
Scott Lynch, Matt Stover.
>>47645167
Yeah, but if I like something that everyone hates, I'd like to understand why they hate it and see how much I agree. I don't think that's contemptible or giving undue influence to others or something.
>>47645094
4e, I think.
>>47645175
Isn't that the bizarre Tolkien/Herbert rip-off that goes on forever?
>>47645271
This one? http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ultra-tech/
That's from 2007.
>>47641397
Common knowledge will tell you a bit, but the
Fate/whatever stuff, whilst something entertaining, is pretty far removed from any other works I've seen that incorporate Arthurian legend, since, you know, none of them have King Arthur being a superpowered girl with a laser shooting sword. First off, try and find a vanilla ish recolelction of the "standard" bits of the Arthruian mythos (Roger Lancelyn Green's King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, whcihw as mentioned above, is a good one), then try Once and Future King, then watch Disney's Sword in the Stone for shits and giggles, then go with the one with the french name I can't remember.
>>47645139
The novels are not being defended - it is merely being pointed out that you are purdy dumb if you thought a 15 year old was going to write great lit.
If you bought into the hype, and got burned, that's YOUR fault, not the author's. Don't blame a book or its author for YOUR mistake. Don't judge a book or its author by the MARKETING CAMPAIGN of the publisher.
Any book written by a 15 year old is going to be pretty plain, at best. Expecting anything more is just not smart on your part.
Step up your game and think harder.
>>47645328
Yeah, that's it. Wait, seriously, 2007? It felt like it was from the late 90s/early 2000s with the "MUH ENERGY WEAPONS" and drastically underestimating tech trends.
>>47645167
/thread
>>47627476
Thats some kino tier taste, gene wolfe mmm mmm
>>47645252
This. You develop your personal taste by tasting things, and forming opinions about them. Other people's opinions are no exception.
Then, temper your opinions and justifications by letting others taste them and respond to them. You don't have to believe everything you hear, but a robust discussion beats an opinion in isolation every time, for me.
I can't help you with Looper because I think it was fine, being quite fun without doing anything particularly worthy of castigation.
>>47630479
Fucking Brian Lumley with his twin brother of cthulhu that was a good guy.
>>47627383
Foundation series
>>47645439
If your opinion is based on other peoples' opinions, then it is no longer your opinion...
Make up your own mind: it is the only freedom you have.
>>47645418
I wonder how much of it was just a mechanical upgrade from the 3e UTech books.
>>47627476
>The Hobbit, LotR and The Silmarillion
>no Children of Hurin
Come on, the book that's literally pure worldbuilding is included but the gritty, depressing dark fantasy about a guy with a sentient magic sword whose family was cursed by the Dark Lord isn't?
>>47645419
You and the other anon seem to have failed grasping the difference between listening and obeying blindly. This isn't an insult, either - Oscar Wilde didn't figure out the difference until late age, and his mind was an excellent one.
>>47645478
Man is a social creature, and the landscape of his mind is a social one. If your greatest fear is giving people influence over you, much better to practice exposing yourself to their opinions than to hide yourself away.
>>47645504
Children of Hurin is decent but compared to LOTR it falls a little short.
Frankly, I wouldn't even really recommend the Silmarillion since it's really just a history textbook. World building is important, but it's far more important to understand how to mesh it with the here and now of the game.
Mercedes Lackey.
Hear me out. She's a great author for 3 things:
-Learning how to do character interrelationships
-Political Intrigue based shit
-Learning when and where to allow your characters to have human moments, while also being bad ass
She does it very well, even if her general style is very...
Flowery.
>>47645478
>If your opinion is based on other peoples' opinions, then it is no longer your opinion
Relying on others to make your opinions for you is a bad idea, but listening to others' reasoned opinions is rarely a waste of time. For example:
>"I hate Bonker Bunny Burrows!"
>"Really? I love it. Why do you hate it?"
>"I hate it for reasons A, B, and C and here's why: [Logic]"
>"Well, B was never a problem because my players suck at munchkining, A is kind of a matter of personal taste, and C...I will give you C, it's kind of a tosser. Meanwhile, I like it because of X and Y, because [logic]"
>"Eh; X was never my thing, but Y doesn't sound bad. Maybe I'll give it a try again sometime, maybe not."
Opinions didn't really shift, but both got perspective and maybe they could fix Problem C or find a game that doesn't have it.
>>47645560
The Silmarillion's tone is less "history textbook" and more "religious text/saga", I'd say
Conan to learn how to do an action scene.
Fafhrd & The Grey Mouser, to learn how to do a new plot, challenges and monster ideas.
Solomon Kane, to learn how to do horror.
>>47645533
Asking for opinions on lechins is like asking for acid to be poured in your eyes - why would you do that? Why would you subject yourself to shitposting basement dwellers if you want an honest opinion? If you fill your mind with garbage, garbage is all you will think about.
>>47645561
Wait, people hate Mercedes Lackey? And her biggest crime is flowery language?
Man, no wonder people shit on my tastes in serious discussions of literature, I loved the wonderful language used Mercedes and Tolkien and the like.
And yet, people praise my writefaggotry. Go figure.
>>47645681
Are you kidding me? 4chan is one of the best online places for a discussion.
If you've been interacting here based on the assumption that you're expected to be a little prick and everyone other than yourself is a subhuman mockery of humanity, then maybe you are a part of the problem.
>>47645699
With Tolkien the main complaint is how incredibly long-winded he is. Whenever I read Tolkien I could clearly feel when the book was in one of two states: Tolkien slowly and precisely describing scenery and every little event, on which I read like 10 pages per hour at most, and shit actually happening, which I could devour on minutes
>>47645576
What you describe, anon, is a utopian paradise that bears no resemblance to this world. Sadly.
People aren't reasonable like that.
People will either follow the crowd or steadfastly refuse reasonable discussion because 'they already know'.
I wish people were as you describe, anon. But you said it yourself: 'Opinions didn't really shift'
>>47645681
Exposing yourself to bad opinions without accepting them is a discipline, yes. If you believe everything you see, then your logic makes sense. How much better, though, to practice discernment - can you really say you have good taste if you can't tell the difference when presented with garbage or gold?
>>47645735
No, a better place for serious discussions is literally anywhere but an anonymous imageboard with almost no moderation that is notorious for being mostly used by children and college kids
>>47645735
In fairness, everyone on 4chan is kind of a prick in one way or another. But I still have great discussions here.
>>47645699
Semi-related, but who's that one guy everyone hates? Who wrote that fantasy series about some gormless betafag who became some kind of sex ninja and porked the goddess of love?
>>47645329
>the one with the french name I can't remember
Le Morte d'Arthur?
>>47645781
If your only goal in sharing your opinion is to "win" and bring them around to your point of view, sure.
Perspective is valuable you know.
>>47645808
You sound like you're operating more on hearsay than actual experience of this place. I've never done this before, even ironically, but you should go to reddit. The way they organize content and moderation sounds like it would be much more to your taste, and that way you'd avoid getting "acid in your eyes" too.
>>47645735
I am only saying that anons shitpost regularly here, and with all the shitposting discussions get pretty damned murky. Don't deny it! 4shins is a great forum for free speech, but much of that free speech is shit; and much of the remainder is bitching about the shit.
And 4chany may be a place for a discussion, but not a GOOD one! The same arguments have raged here for years, because discussions cannot be concluded, because everything resets after a few hours/days and anons have the memories of retarded gnats.
>>47645830
>gormless betafag who became some kind of sex ninja and porked the goddess of love
Elminster?
>>47645252
My problem with Looper is that I'm a huge pedant when it comes to time travel, so anything that isn't Los Cronocrimenes is garbage.
>>47645699
It might be due to which books people have read. Some of her later books were terrible -- generally the ones where she was ill and just wrote an outline for her husband to flesh out. If it's got a co-credit from a guy you don't know, skip it, it's not remotely her best work.
Folks should judge her based on Arrows of the Queen, rather than some of the lousy sequels.
(Personal opinion: She's more of a second string writer, but still has real talent. )
>>47645859
I've been here since 2011. You're getting hilariously butthurt. I just don't delude myself into thinking 4chan is good for anything except shitposting and casual conversation
>>47645860
I'll say /tg/ and 4chan in general is a poor substitute for actual human discussion. But very few of my friends read, talk about science or history, or do anything much else than discuss anime, PC gaming, cars, or trans issues.
So if I have to deal with some anonymous weirdos calling me a faggot in order to have conversations about stuff I like then I guess I'll just cowboy up and deal with it.
>>47627514
Adding onto this, the Mahabharata and the Vedas. Really anything written 1000+ years ago that is still widely read is something you should at least be familiar with
>>47645860
>discussions here get murky sometimes, and it takes effort to remain focused
>discussions here are like bleach in the eyes, don't ever do it
These two positions are not really equivalent.
>discussions cannot be concluded
New people come to this place every day, you know. Kind of like the rest of life, there is that new generation of adults coming into the conversation and needing to hear all the base arguments again. It's not really because people have no memories.
>>47645794
>Exposing yourself to bad opinions without accepting them is a discipline
>discipline
There you go right there - your logic has a flaw. People do not exercise 'discipline'. People do not know how to regulate their minds; people do not know how to learn. It is unreasonable to expect people to practice disciplined discernment. It is reasonable to expect people to be lazy and self-serving.
I agree with you absolutely 100% in principle - but reality is a bitch and reality says people will either gobble up the opinions of others or off-handedly reject them, all without thought or discipline.
>>47645385
"This book isn't great"
"It's by a 15 year old"
"I has a movie, people can voice their opinion on it"
"You bought in to hype, be better"
I knew the book wouldn't be great, there was no hype bought into. That's something you added. You're saying that the only opinions that could be voiced are praise. Maybe you should try think harder.
Don Quixote
>>47645915
>a second string writer
Oh yeah, I'm not saying she should go in some sort of hall of fame as a shining example to future writers until the end of time or something. I am terribly partial to her, though, and I don't mind a little nostalgia colouring my memories. Anne McCaffrey is another that will always be remembered fondly.
>>47645873
No, this was an original fantasy series. Everyone hates it because the protag is one of the few actual examples of a real Mary Sue. Even Penny Arcade did a joke about these books. It's driving me crazy I can't remember it.
>>47645917
What about that post looks butthurt to you?
>I've been here for 5 years and this is important
I think you're seriously misjudging the kind of people in this thread.
>>47645925
Oh, I agree! I have little doubt that everyone is here because here is the only place they found like-minded folk. It's just not a great place. Gems in the mud are certainly to be found, and reasonable people who think thoughtful thoughts.
But shitposters rule this place.
>>47635732
Wasn't Eragon published because the authors parents ownes a publishing company? Also, your taste in books is mealy as fuck.
>>47646053
The guy was pretty much calling me a newfag saying that "I operate on hearsay" due to disagreeing with him and told me to go to reddit. Therefore, mentioning that I've most likely been here longer than him was pretty relevant, and the whole post was pretty butthurt.
>>47646050
Name of the Wind son, the Kingslayer Chronicles by Patric Rothfuss.
Glad to help anon, have a good one.
>>47645993
>You're saying that the only opinions that could be voiced are praise
No. What I am saying, in plain text, is this: If you expected a 15 year old to write a masterwork, you are a faggot. A raging faggot. A faggot lord, if you will.
But do keep expressing your butthurt, kid.
>>47646053
If you make the other person seem mad, even if they aren't, then you 'win'. I think that's somewhere in the rules on turning normal discussions into competitions.
>>47645977
If you want to talk reality, then people do regulate their minds and learn. It happens everyday. Should you expect this of everyone? Nah. Should you expect it of yourself occasionally? Probably.
So yeah, I'm not seeing any reason not to ask someone why exactly they disagree with me, on 4chan or anywhere else. If I can't handle that today, it's on me. The alternative is to cut myself off from discussion of things that interest me for fear of hearing something I don't like, which doesn't really do it for me.
>>47646108
That's the fucking one! Thanks anon.
>>47646140
That's not true, you're just mad 'cuz I'm stylin' on you.
>>47646084
You honestly do seem to be taking a lot of the jokes we tell about this place seriously. I mean, if you really think he's a 100% wrong and you're 100% right, there's not much I can do about it, but just know that you will probably get over this mindset eventually.
>>47646140
If you weren't mad you wouldn't be smugly calling people new and telling them to go to reddit while being new yourself
>>47646140
Oh, that's how society works - any emotional display means 'you lose'. Only those who remain calm can 'win'. Any emotional outburst at all, and you are regarded as unstable and dangerous.
Our society demands us to be emotionless. While encouraging us to be ignorant and generally stupid.
>>47646192
What part of his post was a joke?
>>47646141
You should meet more people and see how prevalent 'reason' is in society. It'd be a cool experiment.
>>47646128
Are you the same guy calling the other person butthurt, when they are also clearly not?
No one said they expected a 15 year old to write a masterpiece, also on you. You're the one turning someone's critique into this big fight. It's somewhat childish, really.
>>47646245
Not everyone you disagree with is the same person. You're acting childish and calling another person childish while doing so.
>>47646128
I'm gonna A) assume you aren't Paolini and B) eat the bait here and point out no one's saying the books should be a masterpiece.
But expecting someone--someone who's a published writer--to show a little more imagination than what we see in Eragon isn't unreasonable.
>>47646219
Friend: this asshat >>47646192>>47646053
>>47645859
is playing you. His whole routine is bait. Notice his carefully modulated tone. He's trying to work you up emotionally, so he can 'win' by remaining a calm and cool shitposter.
Laugh at his faggot ass.
>>47646277
Careful, your modulated tone indicates you're an insincere shitposter. That or you're incredibly butthurt, one of the two. You should just give in now.
>>47646340
Who are you even talking to now
>>47646277
Read more published work, then get back to me on the quality of material that is generally published.
Tl;dr: most MOST published books are garbage!
And I AM Paolini - fuck you haters! I rite good, my mama sez so.
>>47645303
Yes.
It also has a really good magic system.
>>47646340
butthurt, the post
>>47646276
Never said that everyone who disagrees with me is the same person, I said that there was a good chance that someone who had a similar pattern in yelling at different people was the same person.
And calling someone a faggot and a kid is childish, so I called him childish.
>>47646397
Okay, the stubborn simplicity of your post made me laugh. This is the last acknowledgement I'm going to give you though, so get your last shots in.
>>47646452
Man, what a faggot.
>>47646452
Pretty sure i'll get you again, 'anon'. Next time! And thanks for calmly shitting up another thread with your crap. Cya.
>>47627383
5 novels - Chronicles of Prydain, by Lloyd Alexander.
>>47627383
Another fun thread in cardiac arrest because people can't not be dicks. Fantastic.
>>47646720
That's our 4chinz!
>>47646720
I swear this isn't a "4chan used to be good" thing. I remember a time when /tg/ had full conversations, conversations one could be proud of. These conversations were rarely connected to the thread topic, but they were full conversations.
Now days, it feels like a conversation starts, picks up a bit of steam, and then someone kicks the door down with a bucket full of shit and just starts throwing it everywhere and calling everyone mad.
I just bought this: http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Chronicles-Conan-Robert-Howard/dp/0575077662
Did I do good?
>>47646916
As much as I hate playing the summer card, I think that's all that's really happening. For the past two weeks, thread quality has been absolute shit.
Just wait until later in the evening, things pick up more by then.
>>47627383
Depends entirely on genre.
I would heavily recommend Malazan Book of the Fallen for anybody trying to run High Fantasy, just like I would heavily recommend Neuromancer for anybody who wants to run Cyberpunk.
There is no objective novel to read for running a game because the two are only very loosely connected, and storytelling techniques which work for a novel might translate over to TRPG pretty horribly.
That said, pretty sure this is a meaningless question which depends on so many factors that it is reduced to a bait-level argument starter, so fuck you OP I can see what you're trying to do.
>>47635732
Oh don't be such a prat. There is literally nothing wrong with judging a work based on it's own merit as opposed to allowing your opinion on the author himself to cloud that judgement. In fact, that is exactly how criticism is supposed to work, and you can fairly level a LOT of criticism at Eragon.
>>47646974
It's certainly gotten worse these past few weeks, but I don't believe that's all of it. I've been noticing this happening for months now, and I don't think it's going to change any time soon.
This summer has been pretty bad though, true.
>>47627383
Lies of Locke Lamora, Conan Saga, The Witcher Saga
>>47647153
Honestly? I found it got noticeably worse immediately after university exams were over.
Less "lol highschoolers" and more uni kids that have been cooped up and stressed out by serious things and now they're carefree and unloading all their residual neg in low-accountability environment. That, and shitty people stand out and influence the aggregate quality more, so more people equals disproportionately more shit.
>>47647179
>Lies of Locke Lamora
My Negro of the highest order.
Some of the sassy shit in that series
>Someday, Locke Lamora,” he said, “someday, you’re going to fuck up so magnificently, so ambitiously, so overwhelmingly that the sky will light up and the moons will spin and the gods themselves will shit comets with glee. And I just hope I’m still around to see it.
>The only person who gets away with Locke Lamora games is Locke because we think the gods are saving him up for a really big death. Something with knives and hot irons and fifty thousand cheering spectators.
>If he had a bloody gash across his throat and a physiker was trying to sew it up, Lamora would steal the needle and thread and die laughing. He...steals too much.
>“I cut off his fingers to get him to talk, and when he'd confessed everything I wanted to hear, I had his fucking tongue cut out, and the stump cauterized...I called him an asshole, too," said Locke. "He didn't like that.”
>>47647061
>>47627383
Start with the Greeks.
>>47647305
What part of judging a work based on its merits is bait, exactly?
>>47643874
>T.H. White's The Once and Future King
This.
The only version of Lancelot that isn't completely insufferable.
>>47646916
>calling everyone mad
That or just seeing trolls in every post. Another fun one is "every post other than mine is a shitpost, including a post that explains why a particular thing is both on-topic and interesting.
>>47647288
>tfw you read the third book expecting a neat wrap up after being tormented by cliffhangers
>tfw another fucking cliffhanger and "haha just kidding new trilogy"
It's never enough apparently.
>>47648267
I'm still holding out and hoping thatthe whole Lich thing is bullshit of the highest orderbecause if that is true then it basically destroys Lockes most lovable trait.
That he's just some cheeky cunt with no epic history or destiny and a huge amount of balls.
>>47627383
His Majesty's Dragon. Great series that spins dragons in an interesting way. Plus it's dragons fighting in the Napoleonic wars. What's not to like.
>tfw waiting for movie announcement
>>47648267
Scott has always said it'll be 7 books in total.
>>47648334
Knowing the author, he's probably going to tease us through the next three books and then end on some vague bullshit.
>>47627514
This. Bible is top-tier fantasy.
>>47648056
He's saying you're taking the bait.
We outed Paolini Defense Force guy as a shitposter halfway through this thread.
>>47645560
For me children of Hurin is simply the best fantasy novel ever published. And comparing it to Silmarillion is pointless, while story of CoH follows the chapters from Sillmarilion, its purpose is vastly different.
>>47648769
>Lies of Locke Lamora
Mah nigga
>>47647288
Fuck yeah mang. I can't wait for book 4! Gentleman bastard REALLY makes me wanna play an all-rogue campaign.
>>47648472
I reserve the right to call dumb things dumb regardless of whether it was dumb on purpose or not.
>>47627383
For worldbuilding:
The Next 100 Years by George Friedman
The Perfect Kill by Robert Baer
You Are Not A Gadget and Who Owns The Future by Jaron Lanier
the works of the invisible committee
The list is /heavily/ biased for modern and scifi settings, but that's what I run by preference. RPG settings are built on conflict and tension, and these works, I estimate, portray the types of geopolitical, economic, and techno/social tensions that define our modern era, and by extension, will inform the future.
>>47649173
Since you're going that way, I'd add Reflection on the Fate of Empires by John Glubb more generally. It's a short essay, very accessible and interesting
>>47649344
Derp just fate of empires. I brainfarted when looking for the title on google since I read it a long time ago
>>47647153
>I've been noticing this happening for months now
Part of this phenomenon could be that as we each become less shitty over time, the average behaviour of this place seems less and less acceptable.
>>47646916
>>47648114
>projecting
>reach
>ad hominem
>cuck
>shitpost
>mad
Anyone else want to throw something on the pile of 4chan buzz words that make you die a little inside every time you see them?
>>47650024
>SJW
>tumblr
>/pol/
>>47650024
>>cuck
This is the one that makes me cringe the most because I have literally never seen it used where it'd make sense at all. Are you okay with black people existing? You're a cuck. Okay with women having jobs and voting? You're a cuck.
>>47650114
The only time I ever saw it used appropriately was when Kiwi Farms looked into that pro-pedophile Nintendo employee who got fired for prostitution. We looked up her husband and found out she forced him into polyamory. And convinced him to pierce his shlong and go into prostitution himself.
His twitter was mostly just him going on about how his wife was out of town (presumably getting Eiffel Tower'd) and how he was just sitting at home eating ice cream, watching anime, or reading polyamory advice books to his fucking action figures.
>>47652153
How can you become that fucking spineless
Even getting the gender conflict aside, how the FUCK do you become so dependent on someone you don't leave them when they're coercing you to pierce your dick and become a prostitute?
>>47652191
For starters, subscribing to an ideology which makes you think standing up for yourself is "toxic" and indicative of a fragile male ego. I don't want to go more into that because we don't need some shitty discussion on muh femnazis.
We figured the guy was already kind of a limpdick and she was an obvious predator. Her behavior is straight out of an abuser's playbook--keeping control of finances, cutting him off from his friends and family, that sort of thing. IIRC, we discovered no one in the guy's support group likely approved of the marriage, because they got married in their fucking dining room with only the official and one witness in the form of an unnamed photographer.
>>47650114
>>47652153
>>47652191
Oh, look - the shitposter never left.
>>47650114
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE6jy78tV78
>>47650024
The worst thing is, some of those buzzwords aren't even really buzzwords. The problem is when people who are pretending to be smarter then they are start overusing words they've seen used to good effect, bringing real worlds with real meanings into the realm of the buzzword.
>>47627514
>>47645927
Hey, what about the Talmud?
>>47627383
The first three Earthsea novels by Ursula Le Guin.
>>47646081
Not him but I kinda liked the series. Granted, I hadn't played any rpgs yetc or watched/read lord of the rings (waaaaay too much of a star wars eu fan) and it was my first series of fantasy.
Also I'm not a prude and read for literary greatness, I read for a fun adventure; and if I'm having a good time with a book, it held my attention, and I always wanted to go back and read more, then it was good. And the eragon series was just thatright up until the last few scenes of the 4th book, really didn't like the ending, kinda wanted him and elf chick to stay together.
>>47649344
>>47649363
Read a lot like standard redpill hysterics senpai
>>47655550
Well, I figure it's not a bad book to get into the genre with. When you're new to fantasy anything will seem amazing.
LOTR is also not really a book I would recomend to anyone. The movies, while getting its story across has pacing issues, but they are also generally well casted, the locations are great, the propmaking is of first rate quality and the soundtrack is great.
If you want light reading with an interesting setting I would recomend the Earthsea books. Magic is also somewhat similar to the Force in that it has a balance between good and evil.
>>47654083
The Talmud is commentary and legal opinion. The Tankah is the good parts of the Bible.NT a shit.
>>47659996
Wow, I completely misspelled Tanakh.
>>47646108I geniunely liked those books and feel no shame
OP here, damn this thread blew up
I just made this thread because I wanted to bump one of the previous threads off the catalog.
You should read
>The Once and Future King by T.H. White
>Dune by Frank Herbert
>The Epic of Gilgamesh
>The Epic of Beowulf
>The Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu
>Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
>The War in the Air by H.G. Wells
>Lord of the Rings series by J.R.R. Tolkien
>The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi
>Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson
>The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis
>The Illuminatus! trillogy by Robert Anton Wilson
>The Black Lizards Big Book of Pulps
>The Prince by Machiavelli
>At the Mountains of Madness and other novels of terror by H.P. Lovecraft
>Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
>We by Yevgeny Zamyatin
>Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>Inferno trilogy by Issac Asimov or the Foundation series or anything really Asimov is amazing
>The Works of Roald Dahl
>Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson
>Winning with Reverse Chess Strategy by William Reuter
>Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy by Henry Kissinger
>Aesop's Fables
>Flow my Tears the Policeman Said by Phillip K. Dick
>Nineteen Eighty Four by George Orwell
>The Poetry of Basho
>The works of Douglas Adams
>Discworld series by Terry Pratchett
>House of the Scorpion by Nancy Farmer
>Dracula by Bram Stoker
>The Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini
>The Plague by Albert Camus
>Gor by John Norman
>Greys Anatomy
>The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas
>Good Omens by Neil Gaiman
>Fairy Tales by The Brothers Grimm
>What is Property? by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
>A modest proposal, Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift
>Conan by Robert E Howard
> A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking
>Grey Eminence by Aldous Huxley
>The Neverending Story by Michael Ende
These were the correct answers. Congratulations to those of you who chose the right books.
>>47660735Same here. I love how two thirds of the amazing things about Kvothe turn out to be an exaggeration, a misinterpretation, or a flat-out lie.
>>47657782
I don't know what you could think is hysterics or redpill about it unless you see /pol/ everywhere
>>47659996
>>47660002
I'll drive that tankah!
>>47664751
I heard that in his voice.
>>47627514
>>47648410
>>47632807
Anyone who is saying this either hasn't read most of the bible or is just an illiterate shit. Easily 80% of the bible is uninteresting horse shit, and the rest doesn't help its case. The bible is not well written, it is not interesting in most of its usage. Fucking hell, there are entire books that do not add anything.
I can't see someone who has actually read the bible calling it an interesting narrative.
>>47645059
iirc, GURPS ultratech is pretty bad
>>47664801
This. Most of the Bible is just proverbs, and even then most of those are just confusing and contradictory.
It has some cool, epic poem style stuff but you can cover basically all of it in a single Sunday School lecture or Simpsons episode.
>>47664801
Get Isaac Asimov's Guide to the Bible. it skips over all the begats and shit, and covers all the interesting mythology and quasi-historical stuff.
>>47628779
My skypirate brothah
>>47664801
The Bible is not recommended in this thread because it's a super cool action novel, it's recommended because a good 86% of western literature either directly references the damn thing or takes story elements from it. Understanding the stories of the Bible is key to understanding western literature as a whole.
>>47664889
The things which western authors typically reference--Eden, Exodus, the exploits of King Davis, Christ, and Revelations--are not really things you need an intimate reading of the Bible to understand.
>>47627825
Am I pleb for disliking it?
Felt like reading One Piece with all those sidequests
>>47646050
I hate it when people call Kvothe a Mary Sue just because he has a ton of sex in the second book. For fucks sake he gets his shit knocked out and raped in the first book, stabbed and exiled in the second, shipwrecked, and also the person he loves is probably going to betray him. ALSO he is slowly dying and loosing his magic through both books. THATS NOT A MARY SUE.
Its like people cant grasp the idea of an unreliable narrator.
>>47665023
These same people call Conan a Mary Sue. It's apparently not possible to tell the story of a great hero who is remembered by everyone for the amazing things he did without just saying "Actually, he was nothing special." Because otherwise, he's a Mary Sue.
Mary Sue didn't fit into the Star Trek universe. She was an awful self-insert who turned the pre-existing state of things upside down and was unbelievably flawless, and what flaws she did have were only strengths being dishonestly passed off as flaws.
>>47665127
It's less about whether a character has Mary Sue characteristics and more about how they're executed. Conan is legitimately fun and well-written. Characters who are depicted as incredible losers yet still manage to be good at absolutely everything are the characterization equivalent of a humblebrag and harder to write well than ones that are perfect
>>47647005
I second the Malazan series. I think most of the characters are well written, relatable, and the world is interesting and varied. But then I've always been told I have low standards, so what do I know.
>>47665127
I wouldn't call Conan a mary sue, a male power fantasy if you want. He is beaten, he is savage, he does dumb things, he gets outsmarted even when at the end he triumphs (even what that means getting out of the dungeon/temple/palace alive).
>>47627383
If you're running DnD or PF, LotR.
If you don't, then you're missing the soul of the game, full stop.
If you want to rip off Tolkien and GRRM for the millionth time, the Heimskringla, Poetic/Prose Eddas, the Orkneyinga sagas and the Njall saga are all really good.
>>47665768
>Lord of the Rings
>soul of D&D and Pathfinder
Are you serious? Lord of the Rings is nothing like either games except some of the races have the same names.
>>47664930
How do you know?
>>47661094
>The Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu
>The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi
>The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis
>The Illuminatus! trillogy by Robert Anton Wilson
>We by Yevgeny Zamyatin
>Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>>Inferno trilogy by Issac Asimov or the Foundation series or anything really Asimov is amazing
>Nineteen Eighty Four by George Orwell
>Dracula by Bram Stoker
>The Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini
>The Plague by Albert Camus
>Gor by John Norman
>Greys Anatomy
>Good Omens by Neil Gaiman
> A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking
>Grey Eminence by Aldous Huxley
>Discworld series by Terry Pratchett
>House of the Scorpion by Nancy Farmer
>The Neverending Story by Michael Ende
I liked like a half of those, but they don't have any business being on "necessary /tg/ reads" list.
>>47665835
>>Lord of the Rings
>>soul of D&D and Pathfinder
He's not wrong, consider how much spellcasters are above everyone else in LotR.
>>47627432
Not a novel you illiterate steer.
>>47664930
That's because the most widespread version of The Book has been dumbed down by a centuries of selective rewriting and purposeful (miss)interpretation to the point even nigger can understand and enjoy. And that's not accounting for what gets lost in translation, intentionally or not.
I'm pretty certain the originals were nowhere near that straightforward.
>>47666454
You mean celestials.
>>47666409
>Gor
>GOR
>>47666454
Yeah, but the wizards in LotR were never intended as player characters. Nor, for that matter, any other character in the story.
>>47666990
>>47666990
Wizards in LotR were divine beings or directly received counsel and instruction from one
The "magic" used by the Children of Iluvatar and Dwarves is just being really, really good at something to the point the stuff they make acquires magical properties. Like elven song or how a Numenorean sword killed the Witch-king on one thrust even when used by a hobbit because the smith just hated the Witch-king that much. The one used by the Ainur is a mixture of superior knowledge and natural abilities.
"Evil" things are the only ones who use magic as understood in other settings, and the only mortal who's outright described as a sorcerer does nothing but insult Gandalf, get BTFO and run back to Mordor without doing any magic
>>47627383
Wikipedia.
>47627383
a good number of recommendations here
Adding couple of my own:
Malazan Book of the Fallen
The Black Company
The Culture
The First Law
>>47666409
>Greys Anatomy
>Greys
>>47667248
That's entirely my point, anon.
You can't really compare LotR to D&D when most of the stuff in D&D conflicts with the way the world works on Middle-earth. Like in D&D, you have widespread proliferation of capable, even overpowered magic wielders who hurl around fireballs and stop time.
>>47627514
>>47632807
This, considering the game I run is based primarily around judeochristian mythology as a base, with practically every other world religion/mythology having at least some presence.
The game is also set at a supernatural high school, so while not required reading per se, X-Men, Harry Potter, andliterally any supernatural high school animehelp me get in/set the mood for the game.
>>47668759
i don't even have to ask if your game is animu-flavored. There's simply no other options.
>>47655256
>recommending female authors
>ever
Try anything by:
Harry Harrison
Mike Resnick
Jack Vance
Keith Laumer
One literally can't go wrong.
>>47669006
Gay.
>>47669006
Have you actually read Le Guin?
>>47664843
No, you really can't. I know. I've taught Sunday school. Fuck, Genesis/exodus alone has so much content you could make a TV series that could rival GoT or The Walking dead in length with only the mildest amount of extrapolation. Shoot, Genesis 34 reads like the plot synopsis to a fucked up revenge drama. The story of David from his days as a shepherd up through his rule as king has all the makings of a rise/fall/redemption of a great man style story. Abraham's story is actually really fascinating when put into context of the new testament (Though how much that would translate to a film or TV style production I can't say for sure). Both the wandering in the desert and the takover of the "promised land" would make for interesting series themselves. Really there's a whole hell of a lot packed into the bible. It's just that it's written in a "Just the facts" style of language that's more focused on the history than the narrative or drama of the story which people mistake for the story being boring.
