So Skulk has failed as MtG's next evergreen keyword.
What keyword fits black and blue then?
Why did we get rid of Fear/Intimidate again?
>>47554714
I think Menace and Skulk combine in a somewhat interesting way. The only ones it doesn't work great with are Deathtouch and Flash.
I really thought they had a good thing going with Skulk.
>>47554806
Literally a dead mechanic if you go up against a deck with cards of the same color, literally the best combat evasion mechanic if you go up against a deck with cards that don't share the same color and don't use artifact creatures.
Having cards that are only effective when your opponent plays specific colors harks back to the era of Circle of Protection, Boil and other ridiculous sideboard hosers. It's not modern magic.
>>47554714
Blue is tactical, black is selfish. Some kind of ability that allows a creature to get pulled from combat if its not in its favor?
Like:
Disappear (You may remove this creature from combat whenever you could cast an instant)
Simple and fits both colors, not limited to small creatures, good for blocking or attacking.
>>47555135
>maze of ith should be a blue mechanic
No, if anything the bluest and blackest mechanic would be dealing combat damage to make them discard.
![241[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/YS1blmY.jpg "241[1].jpg")
>>47555212
In fairness, wizards has said it's at least blue/white
>>47555212
The bluest and blackest effect I can think of would be "Whenever you would draw a card, target opponent discards a card".
>>47555237
Ill agree with it being white, but that shits not black.
>>47555247
But were talking about combat mechanics anon
>>47554714
He's saying the same thing I was saying when skulk was revealed. Good thing they realized the error.
>What keyword fits black and blue then?
Something like an inverse 'prowess'?
"When one or more cards are put in an opponent's graveyard, this creature get +1/+1 until EOT"
>>47554714
>prowess doesn't combo with skulk
Nigger cast your spells after blocks. No wonder they accidentally break so many cards, they dont think of any simple interactions.
>>47555403
He literally says it combos with it.
Raze
When this creature becomes blocked, target opponent discards a card.
>>47554842
skulk is fun but it wouldn't work outside of innistrad.
>>47555427
>>47555247
>>47555212
I really don't want to see any repeatable discard effects in evergreen. That sounds unfun as fuck.
>>47555327
>"When one or more cards are put in an opponent's graveyard, this creature get +1/+1 until EOT"
I like this. Call it "Morbid" maybe. But I'm not sure it would feel right on a blue creature.
>>47555815
Morbid is already a keyword
>>47555886
Ability Word, technically. They still won't reuse it for a keyword, though.
Beguile X
Spells that target creatures blocking or blocked by ~ cost X less to cast
Plays well with instants for blue and spell-based, targetted removal for black
>Flying
makes blocking even harder
>Prowess
combo
>Flash
combo
>Hexproof
limited synergy
>Deathtouch
no combo
>Lifelink
no combo
>Menace
combo
>Haste
no combo
Think I've cracked it
>>47555886
"Grim" then?
>>47556258
I like it, but it doesn't feel black to me.
Also worth noting that your wording would apply to spells cast by your opponent as well.
>>47556311
Or anyone else in a multiplayer game
Blue/Black sounds like either mill-related or graveyard based. Also stealing things from library. Overall slimy manipulation. Ideas:
>You may cast instant and sorcery cards from your graveyard if they're targeting [CARDNAME]
But kinda doesn't feel black at all.
>Whenever [CARDNAME] deals combat damage to opponent, exile/mill top card of his/her library
But that's already ingest
>Creatures blocked by [CARDNAME] get -X/-0 untill EOT
Not very black, though
>Whenever a card is put into opponent's graveyard, target creature gets +X/-X or -X/+X
Former is very dangerous, latter is WU and not UB
The actual question is, do we really need an evergreen for UB?
>>47554714
How is it not Cipher? I know it was thrown away but we're talking about an on-hit repeated sorcery here.
>>47558465
Cipher doesn't seem to fit black all that well though. Also they probably think it's too complicated for an evergreen keyword.
>>47555327
Maybe make it a debuff? Kinda like flanking but proportional to the number of opponent's cards that entered the graveyard.
"Whenever a creature blocks this creature, the blocking creature gets -X/-X until end of turn. X is equal to the number of opponent's cards that entered the grave this turn."
...Too wordy.
>>47559208
It's got terribly low amounts of design space - there's only so many things that can go on the cipher spell that you want not just once when cast regularly, but again after the creature connects.
>>47554714
"Whenever ~ deals combat damage to an opponent, you may draw a card unless that player discards a card."
For me UB feels like mill, but that's too narrow and not competitive.
Typically blue/black hybrid means some type of evasion plus mill/ingest/etc.
Since Magic is supposed to be about strategy, why not a Fateseal type effect? This could add interest strategy to a game primarily degenerating into creature combat, especially with shuffle effects.
Another option is "Mega Skulk" - ~ can't be blocked by creatures with LESSER power.
Looking at blue/black creatures through the years, almost all have had some type of evasion and/or library/hand interaction. I want to see UB have a more interesting evergreen keyword. Maybe something with looting or pain draw. I would rather the UB keyword mechanic provide a benefit for the player using the mechanic rather than provide a hinderance to the opponent conceptually.
You may now proceed to call my ideas crap.
>>47560859
>not competitive.
Anything can compete if you give it the right amount of umpf. Mill not competing is a choice.
>>47560889
Mill literally can't win against a lot of tier 1 decks in Modern and Legacy, no matter how much "umpf" (whatever the fuck that means) you give it. Why play a deck that can't beat the best decks in the format?
>>47560922
powerlevel, you fuckstick.
>Why play a deck that can't beat the best decks in the format?
this is a fact about the cards which actually exist, not the mechanic.
>>47554714
>Blue and Black keywords
>Haste
Well, here's the U/B mechanics I've come up with over the years.
>[name] Plunder
>When this creature deals damage to a player, reveal the top cards of his or her library until you reveal a [name] card. You may cast that card for its converted mana cost. Put the remaining cards on the bottom of that player’s library in any order.
[name] could theoretically be anything, but mostly it's meant to be Artifacts since it was intended for a pirate set. It could even be Land, though that would require somewhat different wording (which is not unprecedented, RE: Haunt): "You may put that land onto the battlefield under your control."
Withdraw C
>You may pay this card's withdraw cost to shuffle it into your library from the battlefield and draw a card.
This is much more Blue than Black, but I like it.
Insanity
>When you draw this card, you may reveal it and exile it. As long as this card is exiled, you may play it as though it were in your hand.
This is much more Black than Blue, but I like it even more.
Why not something like inverted Rampage? Let's call it "Toxic" for now.
"Toxic 1" would mean, "each creature blocking this one gets -1/-1 until end of turn." This may encroach on Flanking from a flavor perspective.
You could also have inverted prowess, let's call it "Domination"
This would mean "whenever you cast a non creature spell, ~ deals 1 damage to target player or each creature blocking ~ gets -1/-1 until end of turn"
>>47561072
The issue with Domination is that it's MUCH better at wiping the board of the enemies dudes than Prowess is.
Boys, keep in mind that an evergreen ability needs to be favorable on all kinds of creatures, from the 1/1 to the 9/9. Yes, trample is an exception.
>>47556258
>Beguile X
Way too situational. Keep in minds that a lot of good blue/black instants/sorcs have no generic mana cost.
>>47560983
Haste shows up in Black from time to time.
Maybe a mini-Cascade effect?
Hex X: Whenever ~ deals combat damage, you may move one sorcery or instant card from your graveyard to your hand, then you may cast a sorcery or instant with CMC less than or equal to X from your hand without paying its mana cost.
>>47562515
Whoops, incomplete edit.
Mini-Cascade would be really blue, the one I posted was more towards the black end.
>>47554714
MaRo thinks everything is a mistake and everything is wrong.
Except Delver of Secrets and Jace the Mind Sculptor of course, those were hones oversights on power level.
>>47561072
Toxic is literally flanking but better
>>47562005
True, but it's not primarily Black keyword, and certainly not Blue keyword.
For Black, Regenerate would be more fitting.
>>47562975
regenerate is dead and no longer a keyword.
>>47562995
Wait what? Since when? Why?
>>47554714
When did Haste become a U or B keyword?
I think Ninjutsu with serial numbers filed off would be great, it's just too complex for evergreen. Everything I can think is too wordy as well, or an abillity word.
>Strategize - whenever you draw a card, you may reveal it. If it's X, effect happens
Too strong I think, and limiting it to the first draw each turn makes it more blue/red. Maybe the reverse works better: whenever you discard something happens based on the type. Or an opponent discards a card on ETB, then there's an effect depending on card type.
>Intrigue - Whenever X happens, put an Intrigue counter on ~. Then some effect on the permanent relating to the number of counters
We won't get another type of counter and fuck putting more +1/+1 counters on things.
>Decay - When this dies, each opponent looses one life
That's not blue.
>Sabotage - When this attacks, tap target creature
That's blue/white
And so on. Intrigue and dirty tricks are hard to boil down to simple actions you can stick on creatures. Maybe exile cards from graveyard on attack and then some graveyard matters. Or some form of mana denial to fuck with green.
Man, I just want Cipher back, it was so fun. It interacts with the other common UB theme of evasive creatures.
>>47563615
Ah, missed that. Thanks.
>Sap
>When this creature is blocked, blocking creature gets -x/-x until end of turn
Blue finds crafty ways to gain the advantage over threats, Black terrifies them into submission or skulks in the shadows until they can find a weak point.
>>47563069
>Or some form of mana denial to fuck with green.
>Mana Thief - When this card is declared as an attacker or blocker tap one land your opponent controls.
>>47560859
>Since Magic is supposed to be about strategy, why not a Fateseal type effect?
never again
>>47563007
Because it's obtuse crap.
>>47563025
It's black.
>>47554714
Something that interacts with the hand, library, and/or graveyard.
When ~ deals combat damage to a player look at the top X cards of library (alternatively reveals x cards from hand) choose one, cards with that name can't be played until the beginning of your next turn.
I feel like evergreen abilities need to be things that primarily effect the combat step. Drawing cards or discarding cards are way too powerful compared to lifelink or vigilance.
>>47566174
The Lure effect?
>>47567477
like:
Lure - When this creature attacks, your opponent must block it if able.
?
That's kind of a shame, I honestly really liked Skulk and I think it would have worked fine as a keyword. As OP points out, it combos really well with lifelink and prowess. I mean, c'mon, BU is a color combination that seems pretty evasive, why not give it another? Menace/Skulk is a cool interaction, and Flying/Skulk would make already nigh-unblockable creatures really hard to deal with without having to resort to expensive as hell and annoyingly wordy "can't be blocked" shtick.
My idea was someth along the lines of a mechanic that lets you look at a player's hand or top card of their deck, let you cast it if you pay the CMC, otherwise to put the card at the bottom of their library.
If put on a creature, it could be something like, "whenever [creature] deals combat damage to a player, look at the top X cards of that player's library. you may cast one of those cards for CMC, otherwise put them on the bottom in any order," with X being however WotC wants to balance the creature.
>>47567694
I'm relatively confident that that would be busted as all hell in practice.
>swing with your 1/1 flyer with a lot of mana up
>cast their last removal spell on their last creature
>beat them to death with your guy over the course of 19 grueling turns because you can decide what they draw, we lantern control now
Sorry, man, I don't see it
>>47554714
So...what is the idea, exactly? Does every color need a keyword, and every color combination a keyword? We need 15 evergreen keywords? That's kind of a tall order...
>>47568053
I think it's just every color combination. And it's pretty well on its way as it stands.
W/G: Vigilance
G/R: Trample, haste
R/B: Haste, menace
B/U: ???
U/W: Flying
W/B: Lifelink
B/G: Deathtouch
G/U: Flash, hexproof
U/R: Prowess
R/W: First strike (double strike)
>>47568190
I almost never see a green Haste card, and I've always seen Haste as simply being a consequence of having Red in the card rather than a property of combining the colors, particularly since Red gets so much haste anyway.
When this creature dies or deals combat damage to a player (whichever variation you feel gels better) you may cast a sorcery/instant card from your graveyard as though it was an instant, exile that spell at eot.
>>47568276
Yeah, it's true haste is most tenuously in its secondary colors, but it still exists design-wise. Anyway, now green shares trample with red and black shares menace so the quota is filled for them regardless.
>>47568276
Black gets haste as well, though usually on weird uncommons and the occasional common (and for some reason basically never at rare unless it has a billion other keywords anyways)
Green gets it rarely and when it does it's basically 'development is pushing this card for constructed'
To be honest, the best Black/Blue non-evasion combat keyword would be Ninjutsu. Unfortunately they screwed the pooch on that one by calling it Ninjutsu, which necessarily restricts it to Japanese-flavored sets - they made the same mistake with Bushido.
It might be time to bite the bullet and simply reprint Ninjutsu but with a new name. It's hardly unprecedented: that's all Horsemanship really is, for example.
>>47568362
I have no idea what to call this.
Black/blue flavor wise is sneaky and mean.
So how about "spy- when Name deals combat damage defending player reveals their hand and lose 1 life"
Finesse (If this creature is attacking, it cannot be dealt more combat damage than it deals, and may assign combat damage at an amount lower than its power)
I'm sure Wizards can word this better, but basically it gives Blue/Black the ability to protect its creatures from unenviable combat.
Put it on a 2/3 and it can't die from being blocked, put it on a 2/2 and if its blocked by a 2/X, it can get out of the situation by just dealing less damage. I would let it do it during all forms of combat, but then that would be silly and broken. Plus, Wizards wants to encourage attacking in all colors so whatevs.
>>47568495
Broken.
>>47569104
Not to rain on your parade... But that's stupid, and you're stupid. Stop being stupid.
>>47567838
Well it couldn't be put on something with evasion without bumping up the rarity of it. But a generic 1/3 for 3 CMC with this, where X = 1, I'd put that at a strong common or uncommon rarity.
There is also the fact that the UB color combination means the spell picked can only be cast from those colors unless you splash for more colors. Otherwise it's just a fateseal-like effect, which we know is strong but not broken because it's not guaranteed what you next draw is going to be shit.
From the resident custom card thread a while back:
Patience
When ~ attacks, it gets +1/+1 if it didn't attack last turn.
It's simple, it affects combat, and it fits flavorfully in both colors (blue is methodical and black is opportunistic).
>>47569804
Amusingly, it pairs well with haste in black, since a creature that just showed up can't have attacked last turn.
I don't care too much about evergreen abilities, but it'd be real nice if they could make some Transmute cards again. What's not to love about great cards that can be used to tutor for even greater cards?
>>47569474
But HOW is it stupid?
Its a combat-centric keyword that isn't evasion and affects creatures with different stats differently.
Its an effect that is extremely powerful and potent in theory (It gives its owner almost complete control on how combat is dictated), but has no ability to force its opponent into a situation for it to be used, limiting its power level. Thus, you can print it on lower mana cost creatures where it can be pseudo-evasion against low toughness (Because it can be like deathtouch if they block) and a bluff tactic against high toughness creatures (Threaten a combat trick, like a blue polymorph or a black "-X/-X" spell). It prevents you from ever losing the creature from attacking, which isn't overpowered since you can already prevent that by not attacking.
But further, it has a high, high amount of design space across rarities. You can print any of the old basic "When this creature deals combat damage to a player, ~", forcing the opponent to choose to block, but also do that but with a higher complexity twist like "If this creature deals X combat damage to a player, ~. If this creature deals Y combat damage to a player, ~~" which gives you different benefits depending on how much you damage you choose to deal. And, though its not common, Blue does have access to "Target creature blocks this turn if able", there's obviously some synergy you can combine on a higher rarity card. Black, meanwhile, has lifelink, and so the ability can combo with Lifelink by allowing a creature to swing in and gain X-1 amount of life freely, where X is there toughness.
All the while, the ability does nothing by itself to deal damage above the creature's efficiency, a crucial element to any blue keyword.
>>47570036
>All the while, the ability does nothing by itself to deal damage above the creature's efficiency, a crucial element to any blue keyword.
Other than prowess, apparently.
>>47570217
Prowess requires other spells at least.
>>47562995
Regenerate shows up in almost every set. Sure, it usually only has 2~5 cards with it, or so, but it's evergreen for sure. OGW had regen, even. SOI didn't, but seeing as FRF didn't either and the four sets after it did, that means nothing.
>>47564661
So Flanking X?
>>47569627
>Better cards need to be at a higher rarity
>>47569804
Memory issues I think.
Stifle: Creatures that block this card lose any special abilities until the end of combat.
Blue because fuck your fun (and something something ovinize), black because it combos with -X/-X and spot removal.
>>47568493
It's an activated ability and of relatively high complexity.
The UB keyword needs to be something that isn't activated and isn't variable between cards. No costs, no different effects, it needs to be straight-forward and precise and do the same thing on each card.
>>47571954
muh limited
u
h
limitedignoring the fact that limited is at its best when the commons are versatile and powerful
>>47554714
Blue is about messing with cards, and Black is about sacrificing things for a cause.
What about an effect that lets you discard cards from your hand to fuel it? Like "discard a card to increase this card's Power" or "discard a card and this creature can fly for a turn".
>>47567520
>>47567477
That's green.
>>47572412
It has as many memory issues as summoning sickness.
>>47554714
Haunted: When this card is discarded, choose 1 - Target player draws a card. Target player discards a card.
>>47569627
>There is also the fact that the UB color combination means the spell picked can only be cast from those colors unless you splash for more colors.
No, you said "If they pay the CMC." CMC doesn't take color into consideration, that's the whole point of the acronym in the first place. Under the wording you posted yourself it is entirely possible to cast an opponent's Path to Exile off the top of their library for 1.
These mechanics are supposed to be relevant or printable at all rarities and CMCs. This mechanic is too powerful for that.
Just have the creature remove itself from combat if blocked or becomes blocked.
>>47575875
that's a white ability, and I'm not really sure how actually relevant that would be in the first place
>>47554714
Remind me again, why isn't it Looting?
"When X deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card."
It's very strong, but goes well on all kinds of creatures and combos well with everything. It's excluded simply because WotC has a hate-boner for everything except mid-range agro decks.
>>47576043
Has Looting ever appeared on a monoblack card? This is supposed to be a mechanic that fits just as well on a blue card as it would a black one, and looting has so far been almost exclusively blue's domain
>>47573082
nothing evergreen would involve discarding. A lot of people itt is overthinking it.
Creeping Dread: For each creature that is in your graveyard with this ability, you may cast a spell from your graveyard for its cmc equal to the number of creatures in your graveyard with creeping dread. Exile that spell and those creatures at eot.
I think flashback should have been BU only. It really fits the theme of the color combo.
>>47572412
"At the beginning of combat on your turn, put a ~ counter on this card. When this card is declared as an attacker, remove all ~ counters from it and it gains +1/+1 (or whatever P/T combination) until end of turn."
>>47578557
That's too complicated to make evergreen, I would think.
>>47578849
>what is banding
>>47579163
>what is banding
A now-defunct evergreen mechanic that was trashed long ago for being too complicated.
You were saying?
An evergreen keyword has to be simple
Personally I would love a rework of ninjutsu that could fit any flavor set but it would still be too niche to be evergreen
The point of finding this ability is to have something you can slap on random blue and black commons and uncommons and make them slightly deeper to play with than vanillas
I was thinking maybe something like "whenever this creature would become blocked by exactly one other creature, you may have that creature block another attacking creature you control instead"
Gives blue and black a interactive ability that's fair, and let's them manipulate combat with trickery, I'll call it Deceit
There are cases where it's too similar to unblockable, that's my main concern, but other than that I think it would be a fun mechanic in limited and constructed
As an evasion ability, no real synergy with flying
On a prowess creature it could push through damage, but more interestingly, if it's paired with a prowess creature, you could make blocking very tricky for your opponent and potentially force them into a situation where the prowess creature eats multiple blockers
No synergy with flash
Good with hexproof for the same reason unblockable is good with hexproof
It's good with death touch in that your opponent has to double block if they want to play around the deceit ability, and it's also fun if paired with a death touch creature because you can shift blockers to the death touch creature, making combat tricky for your opponent
Lifelink is no better or worse with Deceit
Full on nonbo with menace
Haste is no Better or worse with deceit but if paired with a haste creature, you could trick your opponent into thinking they have good blocks on their turn but on yours you play a haste creature turning on your deceit creature
Maybe they should stop trying to force keywords on fucking everything, and just make cards with interesting effects.
>>47580028
Easier said than done
There's like 15k magic cards or something like that, they have to have reusable mechanics or they'd run out of design space
>>47580111
>this is what nwotards actually believe
>>47580179
How about [land]dweller?
As long as you control a [basic land], [creature] has menace (or vigilance, +1/+1, etc.).
>>47574219
Summoning sickness only really matter during the turn you play the card.
Regardless the problem with the ability is that it's pretty worthless (a simple telegraphed +1/+1 often doesn't mean jack shit, the reasons why prowess works is because it can be applied multiple times in a turn and because it can be done at instant speed). Furthermore it impose a rather annoying limitation, as well as slowing down the game for no good reason.
>>47554714
If you want to make a U/B evergreen mechanic you need to look at what U/B already does and design a mechanic that works well with it.
>What U/B does
Mechanic
>Having more cards in hand than opponent, either thanks to card drawing or by making your opponent discard stuff
When this creature attack, if you have more cards in hand than defending player...
>Sending stuff to the opponent graveyard, through discard, counters, mill, creature-removal
>>47555327
>Evasion, from flying, deathtouch, unblockable, tapping the opponent deferences or simply nuking them
Whenever this creature deals combat damage to an opponent, it deals twice that damage instead
>Card drawing
Whenever you draw a card, if it is the second card you draw this turn...
>>47580816
Doesn't sounds U/B at all, furthermore it's way too easy to get.
Determined - Whenever this creature attacks, if your opponent controls no untapped creatures, this creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn
What do you guys think?
>>47581026
I will expand a little bit, flavor wise:
Blue likes tapping things (Exhaustion) and black loves tapped things (Royal Assassin)
>>47581060
Black by itself has little to nothing for tabbing enemy creatures.
It definitively feels more white/blue.
>>47581138
makes sense if you think about the oportunistic aspect of black tho
Bitter <cost> (If two or more cards have been put into graveyards from anywhere this turn, you may cast this card for its bitter cost.)
Is temp draw in red a failure too?
>>47581221
>makes sense if you think about the opportunistic asp
It doesn't make sense from a mechanical PoV, which is more important.
Pardon me if this is already an older mechanic I'm unaware of, but what about something like
Psychosis- Any creatures blocking or blocked by this creature gets -1/-0 until end of turn.
I agree the mechanic should be combat based, not damage based. This would allow semi invasion early game, when opponents can't trade their 1/1 for your 1/1.
Late game, it can make demons and leviathans more powerful, as it becomes more difficult for opponents to block with multiple creatures.
Flavorwise, it ties into blue's ability to affect the mind and black's ability to instill fear.
It avoids being parasitic by not affecting toughness.
>>47581694
Hopefully.
The way it's implemented right now it's pretty shitty.
>>47560859
Fateseal is fundamentally broken. There's a difference between fixing your deck and fucking your opponent's deck.
Here's a design space
Can be blocked and only be blocked by tapped creatures
>>47581586
Maybe tie this to the "sorcery but at instant speed" thing that was hanging around back in Invasion block, what with shit like Rout and whatnot. It definitely feels like Blue, able to convert powerful sorceries into instants when the conditions are right, and it definitely feels black, being able to be versatile when the opportunity presents itself.
>>47568396
>>47568276
Red gets haste at all rarities, because that's its jam.
Black gets haste at common/uncommon in order to promote BR aggro strategies in limited formats. Without the incentive, it's easy to make a BR control deck thanks to all the removal.
Green gets haste at rare for value. It's fatty archetype holds well for draft, but any color can play big shit in constructed thanks to all the power creep at rare, so green needs some extra oomph.
>>47583851
>Can only be blocked by tapped creatures
That seems a bit odd. It's also really contrary to some of Blue's spells that Tap creatures down to get them out of the way.
You're basically saying 'hey aggro, please rape my face'
>>47581026
>>47581138
I would change the name, but also expand upon this to say it could work for Black.
Blue would likely accomplish this condition by controlling the board, tapping enemy creatures and preventing them from blocking at all.
Black would probably accomplish this by simply killing any living creatures with spells, and then using the now empty field for extra damage to kill the enemy faster.
It also fits Black because Vigilance is a pretty handy counter.
>>47583851
>Can be blocked and only be blocked by tapped creatures
That would be very interesting in Lorwyn-2, where everything is backwards land. Alice in Wonderland themed block anyone? It sure as hell isn't evergreen though.
>>47581930
>Psychosis- Any creatures blocking or blocked by this creature gets -1/-0 until end of turn.
That seems actually sensible. It's simple, in flavor, doesn't need much rules text, and is creatures-effecting-creatures. Best suggestion in the thread.
>>47556869
>The actual question is, do we really need an evergreen for UB?
Yes. UB is the color combination that lacks the most in evergreen creature keywords. The one thing it's got now is flying which blue already shares with white. That said, it needs to be something relevant in combat, not another evasion keyword.
>>47579467
Deceit's pretty good. Evasion, tricks, pushing through at expense of others, shit's pretty fun an UB.
>>47563007
Sanitarium Skeleton was originally designed with Regeneration. However they try to phase out this keyword as evergreen especially on common level since it is one of the more complicated mechanics in Magic.
>>47554714
<cost>: Cloak (~ becomes unblockable until the end of turn.)
>>47584698
Doubt WotC wants situations in which a player has no creatures in play. Making an evergreen mechanic that promote that, seems a pretty big no no.
Frankly speaking "frenzy" does a better job at what you're trying to accomplish.
>>47579467
I'm not sold.
In practice, it's just worse menace.
What about something like "when this creature is blocked, the blocking player mills a number of cards equal to this creature's power?"
>>47589638
Nobody like mill.
>>47568276
Look up Gaea's Revenge and Vengevine
I thought triskaidekaphobia would make Skulk worth using. I guess it's not enough? Really, I'm surprised a triskaidekaphobia deck hasn't existed yet.
Yeah it's a really janky deck, but it can be fun. Blue black Skulk with an alternative win condition of milling. Since this standard can be somewhat slow, I'll say it's worth a try. He'll, you can add a 3rd color for more consistency to live longer.
This is just an idea though, it reality it can be a really bad deck.
>>47581930
I like it. I'd be okay with this.
Epitaph: When this creature dies, target player either loses 1 life, or discards an instant or sorcery card.
You can put this on cheap casted cards to discourage your opponent from killing your things. Could also work on graveyard heavy decks that have zombies which continually die and reanimate.
>>47570226
According to the devs its dead, just like skulk.
>>47590254
thats actually reds schtick to redirect your opponents play based on what youve got. Before you answer, just think about how much differently you play when you see the first mountain hit vs the first island.
>>47590008
>triskaidekaphobia
The downsides of trisk are twofold:
1) It's completely nullified by pain-lands, that people are running anyway.
2) It can (and will) kill you
The first one was picked up on as soon as people started thinking about it, but the second one is the nail in the coffin. Your opponent has to do very little damage to you to make playing Trisk suicidal.
I came into this thread expecting to see embarrassing MaRo posts and I was sorely disappointed
>>47581930
Probably the best one I've seen in the thread since it's basically reverse Bushido and Bushido is WR.
>>47555327
I kinda like this one too. Reminds me of the Moxie ability in Pokemon.
>>47581930
My first thought would be something like "Terror" as the keyword- where it's a combat related bounce effect- fluff of just making things flee in terror.
Issue is balancing it to not make it stupidly broken.
>>47554714
Cunning
When creature with cunning attacks you may tap target creature you control, if you do target creature opponent controls gets -1/-1 until EoT
>>47591478
or a slightly changed version
When creature with cunning attacks you may tap target creature opponents control, if you do target creature you control gets -1/-1 until end of turn
>When this creature dies, draw a card.
It's simple, it's got design space out the ass and it fits both colors.
>>47591581
Jeskai sage 2.0
How about "When this creature dies, scry 1, or drain 1"
That's a bummer. Love skulk. Adds a bit of another dimension to games.
>>47554714
I've got one. It's a combination of blacks recursion and blue's bounce.
Disperse (When this creature dies, return it to its owners hand.)
>>47592998
Noooo.
Maybe "When this creature dies, its owner may pay its mana cost to return it to their hand instead."
Prevents having to build around never ever letting a creature gain both it and Flash at the same time.
>>47591581
Not really a combat mechanic, which is what they are looking for.
>>47589654
I like mill
>>47593667
Mill yourself.
>>47593822
Sometimes I do
Bring Wither back.
>>47560972
please mill me some more Anon, I could use some free wins
>>47554714
I got it!
Blue and black both like mill, right?
But they already have enough milling cards that we don't need another milling mechanic?
Okay, so how about this:
Psionics (Whenever an opponent puts a card into their graveyard from their library, this creature gets +1/+0 until the end of turn.)
It turns your Glimpse the Unthinkable into a +10/+0 for all your psionic creatures.
>>47562974
well that didn't stop them printing Infect over Wither
>>47598704
but infect has anti-synergy with other non-infect sources of damage, baka anon-kun
Why not Dethrone, from Conspiracy? The attacking creature gets a +1/+1 counter if it attacks a player with highest life/tied for highest.
It encourages black to play with their life total more, encourages blue to pick smarter battles and not block no matter what, and encourages red (moving from primary in Conspiracy) to go crazy more burn shit.
It also allows life gain in white/green to be pushed that much farther, since a higher life total isn't objectively better in general games anymore. Pure life gain cards are still shit, but as secondary effects/lifelink it can pushed just a bit harder.
>>47603486
I rike it
>>47572412
Probably easier as "If this card is untapped during your untap phase, it gets +1/+1" (Or whatever)
Though that would make it combo with vigilance.
>>47603486
counters are abusable and wrong bad fun for wizards.
>>47589529
>pay X and this nigga aint dying
Real fucking complex
Spooky : This creature cannot be blocked by creatures whose Toughness is lower than or equal to its Power.
Theme's pretty obvious. Creatures are too afraid to block some seriously spooky shit which can kill them.
>>47554714
>Skulk failed
As a surprise to nobody. It's not even that interesting of a mechanic it's the unblockable mechanic only gimped to all shit
Even in limited Skulk was major trash. The only cards that were playable that had it didn't need it
>>47554714
Why not shadow or fear?
Skulk is objectively shit on many levels
>>47605711
The problem is that Regeneration only prevents some of the situations that send creature form play to the graveyard, not all of them.
Well, it's a problem for 12 y/os, with more money than education, who just happen to be primary target audience.
When this creature would take damage, you may discard a card and have your opponent draw a card to prevent it.
>>47606072
I don't understand how the mechanic is any harder to grasp then something like Prowess. It's just damage or destroy effects.
I guess I get your point though because I've seen a lot of people fuck it up somehow
>>47606093
Fuck no that's terrible. Literally going down in card advantage by 2 is not worth saving a creature. If you said discard a card OR have opponent draw then maybe you would be on to something decent
>>47565097
Just a friendly reminder that fateseal is fine and these meme needs to stop
>>47606198
Fateseal is just reverse Scry. When mechanism A is fine the reverse A is guaranteed to be fine too.
Except when A is ramp.
>>47603486
The issue with Dethrone is that WOTC doesn't like to combo +1/+1 tokens and -1/-1 tokens in the same set so you won't see an evergreen that gives tokens.
>>47606215
>Fateseal
Fateseal is a stax-type win condition, hidden as a utility spell.
Lantern Control builds a machine from tiny artefacts that Fateseals repeatedly, so much so that your opponent will never draw another relevant card for the whole game.
Stealth (This creature cannot be blocked by more then one creature)
Paralyze (Creatures blocked by this creature don't untap during their controllers next untap step.)
Distract (If this creature is blocking, all attacking creatures get -1/0 until end of turn)
Last Strike
Echo Strike (This creature deals both Last Strike and regular combat damage.)
Prob my fav is last strike and echo strike, also stealth isnt bad too i guess. Echo strike works into blue and black having high toughness, as they will need to survive combat's first round to get off the extra damage.
>>47606381
>Lantern Control builds a machine from tiny artefacts
Well, so did Eggs.
It's nice to see that even with all the effort WotC takes to prevent deckbuilding of anything that isn't Creatures: the Tappening, somebody will always find the way. Those are the heroes we need.
>>47606392
If creature has both First Strike and Echo Strike (Or Double Strike and Last Strike) does it do combat damage 3 times?
>>47606381
"Whenever X deals damage, fateseal is so op guiz!!!!!!!!"
"WOW WIZARDS BLUE IS SO BROKEN WTF ARE YOU THINKING PLEASE PRINT MY 9/9 FOR GG WITH HEXPROOF AND DRAW # GREEN IS SO UNDERPOWERED WOW"
>>47606420
yes ("triple strike" is something maro has wanted to do for a while) It may not seem 100% clean but honestly it isnt a big deal
>>47606432
Double Strike is already pretty damn niche, so I find "Triple Strike" unlikely to happen.
Also while still rather straightforward for normal play it can get pretty crazy with damage and combat damage triggers.
>>47606459
i mean doublestrike is niche due to its power level, something like echo strike could be deployed more because its not firststrike+.
As for combat triggers if you can manage to get triplestrike on a card then id imagine things getting a little wild just like how they are with doublestrike
There's lots of issues with the ideas that people are presenting.
It needs to be a basic, non-variable, passive keyword that always does the same thing.
It can't have any costs, so something like Ninjutsu is a no.
It can't have any variables, so something like Bushido is a no.
It needs to relate specifically to combat and be as basic as First Strike, Haste, Prowess, etcetera. Something you'd be comfortable having on a card at the common level.
>>47606662
I think my suggestion passes this test but I'm not vain enough to tell you what it is.
>Whenever a permanent leaves the battlefield, this creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
>Whenever one or more cards is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, this creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
>Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from the battlefield, this creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
>If this creature would deal damage to a player, it deals double that damage instead.
>If a creature would deal combat damage to this creature, it deals half that damage, rounded down, instead.
>XYZ (This creature deals combat damage after creatures without XYZ.)
These seem like the most reasonable ideas so far.
>>47606751
You are probably the retarded that posted about last strike.
>>47606662
Oh, and add to the list that it needs to be a positive trait, as well as working well mechanically with both blue and black, both individually and together.
>>47606123
The part thats 'complicated' is the shield it creates and the effect it has on combat.
>>47606797
>>XYZ (This creature deals combat damage after creatures without XYZ.)
Will never ever happen.
>>47589529
Thank god they made sanitarium skeleton the way it is now. Fits much better the mechanics of the set.
>>47589529
>>47609278
relentless dead is just regeneration plus an X mechanic
Deceptive (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, you may exchange it with an unblocked creature you control.)
>>47581930
>Psychosis- Any creatures blocking or blocked by this creature gets -1/-0 until end of turn.
This...yeah, this works. Blue effect in a black kind of way, simple with no variables, directly combat related. I can see this getting used no problem.
>>47610109
Wouldn't the first creature still being technically blocked?
Are there any precedents for effects like this?
>>47610200
>>47581930
The name really doesn't work for straight generic blue cards.
Think of your 1/1 U human wizard, would it ever make sense it having an ability with that name?
Also, I believe evergreen mechanics should be descriptive of the creature.
Haste makes me think of a fast creature, Trample of a big and indomitable one and so on.
What does make psychosis make me think? That the creature is crazy?
Might work on certain setting, or on certain creatures, but it doesn't seems something that would feel right most of the times, especially on blue creatures, since they are usually all intellectual and rational and stuff.
>>47610585
Yeah it's still blocked but you get to decide if it dies or not. You can do things like block bait, etc with it.
>>47610585
>Think of your 1/1 U human wizard, would it ever make sense it having an ability with that name?
Yes?
Blue has madness-flavored mill cards in virtually every set that comes out. If you search "Psyc" on magiccards.info more than half of the cards that come up are blue.
I agree with you that it ought to be more descriptive of the creature, which is why it ought not to work, but saying that a mechanic called "psychosis" would never make sense in blue is just wrong.
>>47611436
It's not that it "never" make sense in blue, is that it often doesn't fit.
Do you think it would be ok to have frequent crazy blue people in a block like Khans of Tarkir or Theros?
Works great for Innistrad, tho.
They should just rename ninjutsu as infiltrate and use that.
>>47611726
Too complex.
>>47611630
How about something like Cunning? Fits into pretty much any setting and can apply to both blue and black. The flavor can be that the creature is using smarts or dirty tricks or something to tilt the odds in it's favor.
>>47560859
>M/Nega Skulk
In what sense is that not the greenest mechanic there is?
>>47612201
Yeah, that works.
Too be fair I also don't actually like the mechanic itself.
>>47556267
>>47555886
call it Vengeance obv
>>47554714
"Skulk"
If the opponent controls more creatures then you this creature cannot be blocked.
>>47610040
Not even close to regeneration.
>>47610109
That actually sounds pretty cool and fits well in both colours.
Can only be blocked by creatures with the same power, Boom.
This feels more WU but hay it would work:
>Scrutinize-X "This creature can't be blocked unless defending player pays X"
X could be life, or even "discard a card" or just be a constant 2 mana.
>>47554714
I love how nearly all the responses in this thread are either crazy card advantage for an evergreen mechanic, or are so ridiculously specific in their implementation that they make Cipher look golden.
Although it does illustrate the problems with trying to design a blue/black creature keyword.
>>47616877
There are also responses that fail to make a keyword that could actually fit in both colors. Which is really the hardest part about an UB evergreen keyword. Blue and Black share so little design space, and when they do, it tends to be for something complex.
>>47616877
>>47617108
Just give them ingest but triggers off dealing damage to a creature. I know that sounds pointless but anyone who's drafted with the keyword has had moments where it makes a major impact.
>>47617108
There's also the problem that black's kind of a messed up colour already. I honestly think mtg would have been better with 4 colours, with one slow and one fast for spells and creatures. So white is fast creature-based, while green is slow creature-based. Red is fast spell-based, and Blue is slow spell-based. As it is, the current colour wheel is extremely arbitrary, and the flavour distinctions change over time. Remember when black was supposed to have more creatures with high toughness? Then they printed a bunch of 2/1s for one. As a colour, it has no coherency, and it's rare that any of its creatures get played at all (in standard, which is one of the main formats they design for). Usually all back is included in decks for is removal and discard.
>>47555135
This is really good, but I think a mana or life cost would be necessary to keep it from being too good. Honestly I liked ninjutsu even though it was complicated, unintuitive, and not very good but this feels like a fixed version of that
Maybe have it be removed from combat any time athe creature it's in combat with changes p/t or abilities
>>47617160
I was wondering if Ingest would be a UB keyword. They always dismiss mill-strike for being too weak, but would exile give it enough of an edge to work?
>>47617249
Well, you're free to have your opinion.
>>47617369
I've won several games by ingesting something they needed or wanted to draw. Also plays around searches that put on top of library and scry.
>>47617452
But how many games have you lost by ingesting a creature and getting them to their next needed land, or ingesting a land late game when all they want to draw are spells? Ingest almost never wins by mill, so being a mechanic without another mechanic feeding off it would just be flavour text.
>>47617533
Its all chance so either they'ed need to give some support effects to creatures with almost-ingest or have them trigger whenever something enters exile that your opponent owns.
>>47617612
Problem is, if they want an evergreen keyword, it need to be able to go on a card on its own. Like Flying, Regenerate, Trample, or Prowess.
Ingest was an interesting mechanic, but needs too much support to be evergreen.
Ghostly-When this creature is blocked you may have it deal damage to the owner of the blocking creature instead.
>>47617855
>>47617855
Already done in green, but otherwise fits. Looks like it'll run into the same problem as skulk, though, in that while it's simple enough and a colour-appropriate effect, the number of designs the ability really works on isn't enough to really support more than a set or two worth of cards.
Definitely one of the better ones so far, though.
Shadow should just come back, divinity would be a new white and green white keyword that would be a keyword which allows it to block creatures as thought it didnt have shadow.
With shadow you can remove unblockable entirely from use, now to make an "unblockable" creature you just give it flying and shadow, or give it shadow against an opponents board that has shadow. Walls/defenders can get stronger because there would be multiple ways past them in limited formats, and a good wall would simply be one that can block more types of evasion on the cheap where now they cant really print walls that survive a bolt and do anything else.
>>47618137
Shadow is basically just a variant of Flying. And making a new keyword just to act like Reach to Shadow really shows that. No way they're going to bring it back. Might as well bring back Horsemanship.
>>47617915
I could see it working nicely around.
If you just slap on a 3/1 creature or a 1/3 creature and it would be draft able. You could just slap it randomly on overpushed mythics like Kalitas or Avacyn to provide value. Too bad it works poorly with deathtouch.
>>47618195
Having two avenues for the same thing is a gain on interaction. unblockable and flying are already the same with the exception that unblockable has more ways to remove it. Its already a blue keyword its just lame and non interactive. Shadow at least comes with a drawback that only shadow creatures can block it, and using a lower powered version of a mechanic allows you to put more abilities on a creature.
>>47618316
It's still just a variant of Flying. Why have a variant of Flying when you already have Flying?
>>47618494
We also already have unblockable, which is noninteractive and limiting. Having a more interactive and limited keyword become evergreen is a benefit for us players. You'll have stronger cards printed with shadow because there are more fringe gotchas compared the the 5 things in all of magic that remove unblockable. All I'm saying is that instead of the current system of unblockable rarely if ever and flying all the time being in blue we could have a more usable mechanic that would also be thematic for black that also would help foster more strategies in limited because a wall with reach wouldnt block 99% of the evasive creatures in a set and have no chance of getting the last 1%.
>>47618699
would block 90%, not wouldnt.
>>47618699
No, Shadow is a bad idea. Just leave flying there and think of something else.
>>47618699
>Shadow is redundant when we have Flying, especially if there's a new keyword just to block creatures with Shadow.
>Bu-bu-but unblockable!
You fucking suck at arguments.
>>47618864
Having multiple forms of evasion that can be interacted with is better than noninteractive mechanics. slapping flying and unblockable on everything is shit, its why skulk was so cool, because it was a weaker version of unblockable that you could interact because at some point the creature has to be small. I guess abilities that white gets are just more popular ideas for blue and black because we dont have enough unplayable demons and leviathans.
>>47618998
You're acting like the only evasion is Flying and unblockable.
>ctrl+f backstab
>0 results
Backstab (Whenever ~ attacks and is unblocked, you may have it deal no combat damage this turn. If you do, target creature that player controls gets -X/-0 until end of turn, where X is ~'s power.)
I thought about it as direct damage, but that would feel a bit too red and -X effects exist in both black and blue. The name plays up the Dimir/UB reputation of being the most roguish color combination, and has the extra flavorful win of imagining that the victim targeted by the backstab literally has its back turned to the creature, because they're "facing" the battefield while the backstabber got past them. It works on creatures of all p/ts, works in tandem with other attackers to make blocking more favorable, and would be fun on the big dumb Timmy creatures Wizards loves to give us.
I could also see it going to -X/-X outright but that would give the ability a boost in power that might be considered too obscene for poor, fragile Standard. Maybe if it made a creature more expensive like double strike.
>>47619069
For blue and black it currently sure is. Fear and its like are dead and done. Something like ninjitsu would be great but its very unlikely with a name like ninjitsu. Mill has already proven unliked by players with injest and you can't just give them +1/+1 for some reason and just be notprowess. The last avenue blue and black really would have are drawing cards, evading blockers, forcing discard, or tap/untap with no diversity between them. Adding another layer of evasion is just adding another level to the least abusive mechanic they share and replaces the loss of the other evasion ability that didnt make it.
What about a throwback to Psionic Entity?
Make it a sort of mirror to fight.
>Blast
Keyword action
A spell or ability may instruct a creature to blast a player. That creature deals damage equal to its power to that player and to itself.
Example:
Mindflayer- 1BB
Creature- Illithid Psion
When Mindflayer attacks, it blasts the defending player.
1/3
Here's another idea.
What if we make pic related into a keyword ability?
>>47619933
bastion
>>47619933
>>47619992
Now, here's a few problems with it:
1) This is a bit like a super-Absorb (future-shifted mechanic from Future Sight) and people complained that Absorb is broken.
2) While blue does get fog effects, damage prevention tends to fall more into white's end of the color pie. Blue/Black with a 'Bastion' ability feels weird.
>>47590311
That's wrong.
>>47561072
>This may encroach on Flanking from a flavor perspective.
>>47562974
>Toxic is literally flanking but better
FIY, Maro has said that if they ever do Flaning again it would be renamed and work exacly that way.
Brigands.
What about making this an evergreen mechanic?
Ubiquitous (A deck can have any number of cards with this card's name.)
>>47589699
And that green ball lightning
>>47556869
your fourth option is what I'd call the "flowstone" ability which already overlaps with black and red.
>>47619304
>till end of turn
So your turn your damage against the opponent into nothing because its eot. Sounds unplayable.
>>47560859
Would it be possible to keyword nightveil specter's ability? Stealing an opponents top card and playing it?
>>47610585
Psychosis OP here. Someone suggested terror, bad idea since Terror exists. I don't think psychosis is bad since we're talking B/U, they should be whacked out. Just like U/W flying should be aerial, or R/W aggro should be first strike.
I was trying to think of a better name, but no. My mechanic is perfect. If you think a blue creature shouldn't have psychosis, there's 3 other colors to choose from.
>>47621470
After all, what drives a knowledge seeking entity more crazy than the idea of death? GTFO 85.
>>47555135
That's already an ability we've seen in white in the form of the Gustcloaks.
>>47620939
Possible? Yes.
Is it a good choice for evergreen status? Nope. Not in the slightest.
>>47620914
That uselessness might actually be enough justification to go-X/-X then. It's supposed to be an oprional combat trick though, so you'd use it only when it makes more sense to trigger, to save an important attacker from dying and such.
>>47621470
>>47621494
> My mechanic is perfect.
>GTFO 85.
Are you fucking 12?
And, by the way, your ability is just gay flanking.
>>47623452
it's very flavorful for blue and black, and you could stretch it design space if you separate the exiling and the playing parts of nightveil specter's ability. Say for instance you have a blue creature which has "ingest" and you also have a black creature which allows a player to play card exiled with ingest. kinda neat.
>>47624392
Too complicated. Evergreen keywords need to be basic, common advantages that are very easy to understand.
>>47620445
That shouldn't be a keyword, it should be a supertype. In fact technically it already is: "Basic".
>>47624148
Nah, just drunk when I posted that. My bad, anon.
