I'm tired of Vanancian casting.
What game systems out there use MP instead of spell slots?and are also good
Why are you tired of Vancian magic? :curious:
>>47527899
Pick literally anything but D&D. Anything.
>>47527927
I've been playing a lot of Dragon Quest lately, basically.
>>47527950
Most of the games I know that use MP are not in the medieval fantasy genre, like Call of Cthulhu.
>>47527899
There's this Polish game that has that. And also has technomagic and all, but it's considered evil. Because it was introduced by one of demon lords as they are empowered by change.(Tzeentch?)
But It's in polish so...
>>47527899
5e has spell point rules in the DMG
>>47527899
I assume you have played games that use MP, so you should know why MP is a bad idea for tabletop games. Who wants to constantly say "I cast magic missile again" and roll for it again and again?
I'd recommend Drakar och Demoner, but i don't know if there's an official english translation of it. I'm making my own, but it's taking some time.
>>47527899
RuneQuest 6 is the most magic centric game there is at a certain point, and it has several magic systems.
>>47528094
It's not quite the same though. It lacks that je ne sais quoi that systems with MP built in from the start have.
>>47528103
Spell slots allow for essentially the same thing though. I don't get your complaint.
>>47528138
I'll put RuneQuest on my list to look through.
Any other recommendations? There can't possibly be that finite of systems that use MP, right?
>>47527999
Even 30 seconds of research lets you know Call of Cthulhu is based on a fantasy game.
>>47527899
My group's playing dnd 5e, and we simply converted spell levels to MP in a 1-to-1 ratio (i.e. a 5th level slot = 5 MP) because we thought the DMG spell slot variant was needlessly complex.
We've played with it through several campaigns. It's simple, intuitive, and the game runs quite well without having to track spell slots. We've gotten up to 8th level without any balance issues with it (casters don't last much longer than usual). It doesn't even feel video-gamey; it's just easier to use.
>>47528163
3.5 also has spell point.rules. At no point in time do you ever have to use vancian casting. You can easily convert anything vancian into a different method.
>>47528194
0 seconds or reserch tells me that I don't particularly care for d% based systems in the first place and I only play CoC because it was one of my first RPGs.
>>47528253
See the very first reply of the post you are replying to.
>>47527899
A lot of em.
If you'd like to stick to d20, try mutants and masterminds.
>a handful of spells that you can cast all day erry day
>ability to whip up a spell on the spot by paying fate point
>also can craft one-use enchanted items or ritual spells
>>47528283
See the very second sentence of a post you are replying to.
>>47528354
Read the part of the OP where I said 'and is also good".
I don't consider converting an existing system to MP is the same thing, and therefore subjectively do not consider it good.
>>47527899
Use the spell point rules instead.
>>47528416
I do consider converting an existing system to MP as sufficient, and therefore subjectively I do consider it good.
I mean, what I'd really like to do is share my homebrew which was built from the ground up with MP in mind, but a) its not finished or even ready for testing, and b) there's no guarantee you'd even consider it good.
>>47528547
>I do consider converting an existing system to MP as sufficient, and therefore subjectively I do consider it good.
Right, but that's not even the subject of the thread, which is asking for game systems that use MP, which implies using as a default. I.E. not D&D.
I am curious about your homebrew though.
>>47527899
Rolemaster.
It has a spell system that is honestly the best besides Ars Magica, which has the finest flavor magic system hands down. Casting is difficult and takes time, limiting the spell user to thinking carefully about which spells and when he uses them. It also makes people that defend him very important. The mana system, or Power Points, also has built in fatigue system so that as you cast, you become more tired and find it difficult to cast further without wasting your remaining power points.
All spells are arranged into lists of thematically similar spells that the caster researches so you have to get the lesser spells to eventually qualify for the better ones. With the skill system the way it is, it would require a dedicated spell caster 17 levels to master most spell lists.
The skill system also has ways to enhance your use of spells including doing things similar to metamagic feats. So you can increase range, area of effect duration or change the appearance of your spells with a simple skill usage roll.
There are also many rules that allow others to counter magic through skills, wise tactics, or setting limiters so that you don't have runaway mages changing your entire world.
>>47527899
Dragon Age RPG
>>47527899
Basic Roleplaying is probably my favorite fantasy RPG system. It does so many things right, that it's a tragedy that I cannot seem to find any fantasy settings I like for it.
The magic systems in BRP all use Magic points which are kind of like MP but if you ever use up all of your Magic Points, you go unconscious.
>>47528067
Ale tytuł tej gry to byskurwopodała
>>47528138
The Shamanistic Magic system is almost impossible to understand and implement. It's like a more muddled and confusing version of Shadowrun's Shaman.
The Folk Magic is great though.
>>47528647
Interesting. I'll take a look into that as well.
>>47528607
You wanted MP and "good".
I ran dnd 3.5 and others with MP conversions and had a wonderful time, so that would fit the criteria which is why I included it.
Magic in the homebrew is based on your Magic stat. Numbers will range from 0-20, which is the maximum MP you can use per round. You create your spells from scratch by adding effects together for a final MP cost number. To add metamagic, you add a multiplier to that final number. For example, a Fireball might cost 5MP (Fire damage + Range increment). You could double the range for double the cost, or you could double the range and double the damage for 5MP(2+2), or 20 MP. You replenish MP every round, so your max MP really just determines how intricate your spells can become. If you have multiple actions, you can even spread your spells out across them. Perhaps you enchant your sword to deliver an elemental attack for 5MP. If you have 3 attacks, you could deliver a fire attack, ice attack, and then you could double an electric attack for 5+5+2(2) = 20MP. I don't have finalized costs for what I should expect players to do, so the examples are probably a bit inflated, but they show concept.
Non-combat casting is done by a ritual system where it doesn't cost MP to cast, but instead takes exponentially increasing amounts of time. This is the "powerful" magic you might otherwise expect from 3.5, like scrying, warding, or the like.
>>47528902
That's actually kind of interesting. Can anyone learn magic? I feel that system is geared towards an almost exclusively caster based system.
>>47527899
Anima has a neat magic system. Characters have a pool of MP and an MP Accumulation Rate. The Pool is how much power you have available. The Accumulation Rate is how fast you can access your pool of power.
For Example, let's say you have a pool of 300 MP and an Accumulation Rate of of 10 MP/Round. If the spell you want to cast has an MP cost of 30 MP, you'd have to cast it for three rounds as you draw power from your pool. You'd be able to cast that spell 10 times in a day before you ran out of juice. If you had an Accumulation Rate of 15 MP/Round you could cast it every other round. This makes for interesting build choices, do I want a shallow pool that I can draw out quickly, essentially making a bursty character, or do I want a deep pool that I draw from slower, making for a more sustained caster.
>>47527899
GURPS
Not even kidding here. With several different magic systems and a ton of options from the Fantasy and Dungeon Fantasy modules, it is a good choice for "Not playing D&D".
>>47527899
When you say you want something with MP, I'm imagining you mean "has MP that regens (rapidly) over time" and not "has a certain number of points per day."
If this is the case, look elsewhere. These systems are incredibly clunky in a pen-&-paper format, and are avoided with good reason.
That being said, there are other games with casting systems superior to the Vancian system. In particular, I recommend the 40K rpgs, Shadowrun, and the Spheres of Power Pathfinder 3rd party suplement. Each of these systems seems to be right up your alley
>>47528961
Everyone can learn magic. How ever many points you invest in magic determines your magical potential (Its very linear that way). It might be expensive for Warrior archetype characters to improve their magic, but even starting out with 0 points will allow you to end up with 20 by level 20. Being a Warrior and pumping Magic or a Mage and pumping strength are two common ways to make your gish character. Or, you could be a Shaman which starts off with a decent progression for both. Its not quite a class based system, but neither is it a classless system. If you wanted to be a Paladin, you could chose a Warrior or Defender archetype and then get just enough magic to cast a few defensive buffs for yourself, or you could use it to power your cleaving and smiting.
Its designed to allow players to organically grow their characters, or to provide multiple paths to an end goal.
There are a few other good suggestions in the thread for established games, so there's probably something here that fits well enough. .
>>47528138
>RuneQuest 6
I'm gonna throw a bone in for RQ6 too. Just remember that mages are still powerful, but will suffer in every instance where they can't cast if they focus too heavily into it.
>>47528688
Shamanism is fine once you read the spirit descriptions. I was horribly confused about what happened until I read both sections.
>>47529140
>GURPS magic
You're messing with one hell of a fire, anon.
>>47528688
Shamanism is summoning. The spirits are NPCs kept in poke balls until called, or until a shaman calls for their help. The spirit descriptions say what they can do in the material plane.
Folk magic is literally cast a spell.
Mysticsm is Kung fu shit, buffing yourself, and some ninja tricks.
Theism is prepared spellcasting.
Sorcery is extremely flexible and more powerful folk magic.
None are simple, but they are super rewarding.
>>47527899
make a "good" non vanacian magic system then
Use Psionics it's more fun to play and way more balanced.
>>47528103
You can easily spam Magic Missile in a game with vancian casting too.In fact in the older Final Fantasy games that was exactly what you did.
>>47528163
GURPS has several magic systems and some of them (Sorcery in particular) cast from FP.
>>47527899
While I kind of agree that Vancian Magic isn't perfect, I like it better than MP systems for a few reasons.
>Being able to cast big/little things too often.
Vancian magic curves mages to spending their magic in reasonable chunks based on their ability. Let's say that you have a little spell which costs 5 MP and a big spell which costs 20 MP.
With 100 MP, you can cast the little spell 20 times, or you could cast the big spell 5 times. For balance reasons, being able to cast a big spell you just learned 5 times DRASTICALLY changes encounter dynamic. While it is your decision to empty yourself on these spells, it has very little drawback in the short term.
That aside, there's also the issue of the fact that in the setting, if mages could just empty out all their magic at once, there would be entire continents shifted in seconds by a group of four. The smallest order of wizards could wipe out entire kingdoms with minutes of planning. Sure, it's their choice to do so, but why HAVEN'T they?
Now, the reverse issue is less problematic: too many small spells. In most Vancian systems, to host more smaller spells, you're expending higher level slots as if they were the smaller slots. If we're measuring big slots as 20 MP and small slots at 5 MP, for example, having a big slot and a small slot gets you 2 small spells, not 5.
Your progression in these systems, if replaced with an MP system would lead to an exponentially larger number of smaller casts. Why wouldn't you be casting Grease every turn? You have 90 of them. Maybe more.
This brings in the in-setting issue again. Why aren't wizards just unleashing gallons upon gallons of fire and water upon the world. Sometimes, you don't need Firestorms and Earthquakes. A series of well-placed Burning-hands with no end in sight could take out a merchant city's trade ships. Again, your resources can be reassigned how you want at no risk.
>>47527899
Mage
>>47530447
(continued)
>Preparation no longer necessary.
Here's another enticing bit. Preparation is annoying.
"I prepared Tongues, but didn't use it. I needed more Fireballs."
Tough shit. Happens to most of us. Your preparations were wasted or they weren't good enough. That's just a fact of war and combat. As a sagacious character, it's somewhat your job to anticipate the perils your party could face and prepare accordingly. This is the standard trope of wizards as they've always been historically. They're preparers.
Sorcerers and some other spellcasters on the other hand are born in-tune with magic. They don't need to prepare and just boosh whenever they need with whatever they need to. If you're not happy with preparation, your system may have such an option as an alternative.
>>47528138
Piling on. The magic is modular so you can use only the parts you want. Mysticism in particular is the one that can tip balance the most if you're not careful. Sorcery could in theory but tends to have your MP as the limiting factor unless you let them regen it too much.
>>47527899
>I'm tired of vancian magic
Here's what you do, you keep spell slots, and you remove spells per day, and make spellcraft a global skill.
For classes like the druid and the Wizard, you make eschew materials automatically banned. Instead, you make preparing a spell take 30 minutes + 5 minutes per spell level, and you can take feats to lower the casting time. Then you make all spells require a spellcraft check when it comes time to cast. They can cast as many spells as they want in a given day, so long as they are given the time to prepare the spells after they use up a spell slot because the spells consume the materials given (which would explain why they need to re-prepare their spells, instead of just forgetting them). The spellcraft DC is 15 + the spell level.
For wizards, they start the game with spell-books, which start the game with all the spells inside them, but are incapable of utilizing them until they're a higher level. If they want to cast a higher level spell than they can currently cast from their spell slots, they must pass an Int check, which is 15 + spell level vs 1d20 + Intelligence/
For casters which are spontaneous, automatically give them eschew materials, along with any divine casters. Arcanes have an easier DC check to cast spells because of the spontaneity of it, but it's Charisma based, so the DC is 10 + Spell level and they roll a 1d20 + Charisma.
Arcane spontaneous casters have a recharge of 1 hour + 1 hour per spell level, and they can take feats to reduce the cool down time on their spells.
Divines have spell slots and their DC is also the same as the Arcane Spontaneous casters, but instead of it being Charisma based, it's Wisdom based. Divine's can re-cast spells they just cast, so long as pass a Willpower save, if they fail it, they become fatigued for 1 minute. The save is 10 + whatever the spell level is.
This helps balance casters out a lot more logically, and serves as a decent replacement for vancian magic.
>>47530903
For classes like the druid and the Wizard, you make eschew materials automatically banned. Instead, you make preparing a spell take 30 minutes + 5 minutes per spell level, and you can take feats to lower the prep time.
Fixed that.
>>47530903
That sounds a lot more complicated than "a spell of this level costs this much MP!". And is also completely unlike what OP asked for.
Gurps uses something like an MP system. Spells are cast from your fatigue, which also makes the casters fairly rugged
>>47530903
This sounds stupid.
Are the spell resets done independently or sequentially in this model?
Sequentially will take too much time, independently will make spontaneous caster much much stronger then prepared.
My brother did some hack for 5e to make MP that involved logs or something. Looked fun to play, but I normally live a state away from him and he's currently working at his school.
>>47528163
>It's not quite the same though. It lacks that je ne sais quoi that systems with MP built in from the start have.
I looked at the Dragon Quest wiki entry on how magic works in that game, and I think I get what you're saying.
I don't know why you don't just steal the whole thing right off the wiki, hand it to your GM, and say, "I want to use magic this way." Much of the work is already done for him, after all.
>>47531011
>This sounds stupid
Gee, thanks.
And independently, obviously.
>independently will make spontaneous caster much much stronger then prepared
Not really, since there's a 2 hour cool down for level 1 spells once they've been cast. That means in that time, a Wizard can easily just prepare 2 or 3 more spells, if given enough time.
>>47530952
Yea, it might be, but you can still simplify it down further if you don't want to go in depth.
The problem with changing the system of magic in D&D is that you have to re-balance other rules with the system, or it ends up easily being broken and not really feeling like an alternate system, but just an inconvenience thrown into the game.
You can always just throw in the Riddle of Steel systems instead and adapt it.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm
Why don't you try playing D&D?
>>47529267
There's multiple systems there for magic. I'm not a fan of the default system, myself, so I use the Sorcery system, and it is excellent. You can design your own spells. You can also make them up on the fly, if need be. And because it uses the same building blocks as everything else, it's easy to customise it to your game's feel.
>>47528163
>>47528315
The thing is that D&D has had original, non-converted MP system ever since Psionics was introduced. That was back in AD&D, and psionics still used points in 3.0, 3.5, and 4e.
>>47531247
>http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm
I've been playing on and off for half a decade and I've never seen or heard of this.
Does it actually work?
I've been hesitant to apply any sort of spell-point system because it seems to "video-game esque", and turns the game away from building characters to constantly meta-gaming your point pool.
I mean, is a spellcaster really going to know EXACTLY how many spell points he has at any given time in the game? No, that would be ridiculous. That's sort of why I get the vancian magic setting, but I don't really like the lore of vancian magic either.
>>47531319
Have you tried applying Vancian magic in an unorthodox way?
Because the spell system is literally "fire and forget", you could involve penalties associated with casting, where perhaps the spell wipes away part of your characters memory that it wasn't supposed to. Part of a danger associated with high level casting, is that the higher the level the spell, the more memory it erases.
>>47531319
No, but if it's just based on magical energy, you can easily think of it as the character having a good feel for how much magical juice they have left in them. It makes literally zero sense why a spellcaster can run out of 4th level slots, but not be able to use the energy for 3rd or 5th level slots on a 4th level spell.
>>47531319
>Does it actually work?
Yes, with a few re-works. It is based on 3.5's long-standing Psionics system, which is basically spell point spontaneous casting, and showing the obvious fact that you could do this with anything.
>>47531319
>I mean, is a spellcaster really going to know EXACTLY how many spell points he has at any given time in the game? No, that would be ridiculous.
He wouldn't feel it in specific "points", but "I have enough juice to cast this spell, but not that one, or I can cast three of those" is certainly reasonable. Which would effectively be the same thing.
In short, no, there's nothing ridiculous about it.
>>47529098
I was going to say what you said, anon.
You done good.
>>47531319
>I've been playing on and off for half a decade
That's not very long.
>>47531382
>It makes literally zero sense why a spellcaster can run out of 4th level slots, but not be able to use the energy for 3rd or 5th level slots on a 4th level spell.
That's where Vancian magic comes in. It doesn't explain they there's a limit for spell slots, but it at least explains why they can't cast them.
>>47531418
Then it just completely makes the difference between spontaneous casters and prepared casters moot.
>>47530903
I like this idea, but it needs some simplifying.
>>47531511
I originally got into it when I was around 13 or 14, but I didn't have the full rules and literally had no one else to play it with. When I found out about Skype, d20, and that I could download the PDF's online, that's when everything really came together to allow me to actually play it.
Unearthed Arcana has a great system for spell points. Same spells/day total, but its divvied into points.
If you get fatigued or exhausted, you go to 50% or 25% of your spell points, and if you go to 50% or 25% of your spell points, you become fatigued or exhausted (the exact numbers are iffy).
First hour removes exhaustion and gets your spell points back up to 33%, second hour of rest gets it back to 66%, and it takes 6 more hours of rest to remove fatigue and get back up to 100%.
What I REALLY like is combining spell points with vitality/wounds (and ignoring the bit about reducing sneak attack damage), because if you take 1 wound point, you lose a substantial amount of spell points, so physical attacks can massively deplete a caster's spell points.
Another thing I like about vitality/wounds is that it gives pure physical attacks a debuff effect (fatigue) and a crowd control effect (stun).
>>47531319
It works. It is however a bit imbalanced.
>>47531541
>Then it just completely makes the difference between spontaneous casters and prepared casters moot.
Yes, and consider: do we actually need separate spontaneous spellcasters? I do not believe that is a role that needs to be protected. Normal 3.5 has spontaneous and prepared spellcasters, and despite the spontaneous spellcasters being only slightly less powerful, the spontaneous versions of spellcasters are basically the most ignored classes in the game. If someone makes them redundant, then no-one will miss them anyway.
In short: so what?
>>47530656
I think it's less clear than that. Mysticism is probably the easiest path, and sorcery allows for the craziest reality warping magic.... but animism turns shamans into whatever they want, and a high intensity elemental is a goddamn monster. On top of that, theism allows for spells like backlash, dismissing magic, and animating objects.
Basically, focusing on any single magic greater than Folk Magic gets scary quick.
>>47531627
Yeah, spontaneous casters just plain don't have a niche. They're already viewed as lesser casters and ignored. The sorcerer almost solely exists as the casting system for various monsters (nagas, dragons, etc.).
Intelligence is just too useful, getting an extra spell slot a level early is just too useful, extra feat is just too useful, etc.
Instead, I just have it be understood that the former spont casters are "untrained" casters.
>>47531627
Well, for characters like the Bard, and the Druid, yes, spontaneous casting makes sense.
Spontaneous casting SHOULD also apply to Paladins and Clerics, but for some reason doesn't. Yea, I get it, they pray each day in preparation. I don't recall Jesus ever needing to pray for X amount of time before he walked across the lake.
>the spontaneous versions of spellcasters are basically the most ignored classes in the game
The only reason people played as Wizards over sorcerer's was because of the options for the Wizard, and even then, it was only just spell selection, and nothing more. The sorcerer could use his familiar to deliver touch attacks, which made him more versatile, and the fact that he had more spells per day meant that he was much more competent at lower levels, and even against other spellcasters such as wizards, especially if the fight wasn't predicted ahead of time.
Fantasy Craft might be what you're looking for, OP.
>>47531153
>I don't know why you don't just steal the whole thing right off the wiki, hand it to your GM, and say, "I want to use magic this way." Much of the work is already done for him, after all.
Honestly, with knowledge of Japanese RPGs in the back of my mind (that aren't even in english), I thought the Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy thing would be so basic and generic that someone would have already set out the ground work for me rather than having to work to build it up into something workable. Why reinvent the wheel when you already have one, and all that.
Seriously though, other than non-fantasy games, BRP, and GURPs, I'm shocked that there are so few systems that actually don't use vanancian casting. Especially shocking because I come onto /tg/ all the time and hear nothing but "I hate vanacian casting" and "Play something other than D&D".
>>47531684
To be honest, I think a better distinction for magic in D&D would be Studied Casting (Very wizard like, fairly versatile, all about pre-written spells) and Innate Casting (limited to one or two very narrow themes, but will always be better at that theme than a Studied Caster).
So under that situation, I could see Clerics, Wizards, and possibly Bards using Studied Casting whereas Paladins, Sorcerers, and possibly Druids use Innate Casting.
>>47532620
I think the big problem might be that the most popular Fantasy RPGs are all either D&D (and thus unwilling to kill its sacred cows) or mindlessly aping the sacred cows of D&D.
>>47532149
Jesus, I can't believe I forgot about this. Fantasy Craft is great, OP, you should give it a look. Not only does it use Spell Points by default, but it's basically a game that took 3.5, burned it all to the ground, and built a balanced, crunchy game from the ashes. In a way, it's like the opposite of D&D 5e.
>>47531319
>MP seems too "video-game esque"
I've played with it for several campaigns. To my surprise, I found it feels less metagamey than playing tetris with spell slots. At a glance you can tell how much magic you have and exactly what you can do with it.
MP is a lot easier to explain in-universe. Your character can just say "I'm low on magic" or "I'm tired", and people understand that. It's better than having to explain spell slots to people, or else bullshit a reason why you can use a 4th level spell, but not a 3rd level one at normal power.
>>47531817
>>47532806
>Yea, I get it, they pray each day in preparation. I don't recall Jesus ever needing to pray for X amount of time before he walked across the lake.
Clerics and paladins prepare spells on account of A) the idea of praying at certain times a day and on account of B) in older editions their mid to high level spells were brought to them, like here's the miracles we're giving you in the upcoming struggle.
Moses was definitely trained, and definitely briefed in advance about what he'd be able to do (which isn't that much different from the miracles the Egyptian gods gave their followers in the same story, interestingly enough).
>>47527899
Has anyone mention microlite20's magic, which takes from the casters health?
>>47534828
I actually used to play microlite20 for a long while, just because it was my go-to answer for "We want to play right now, but nobody is prepared for anything!"
It was alright. And the magic system was interesting, if not derivative. Not really what OP had in mind though.
>>47531319
>seems to "video-game esque", and turns the game away from building characters
Are you literally retarded? Think about what you just posted for more than five seconds.
Fantasy Craft uses this system, and does it quite well. As an added benefit, you don't have to play 5e.
>>47531319
>I've been hesitant to apply any sort of spell-point system because it seems to "video-game esque", and turns the game away from building characters to constantly meta-gaming your point pool.
...And spell slot management doesn't? It does it moreso if anything
>>47540655
Really, the whole "feels like a video-game" thing is simple elitism. Video-game designers solved this problem decades ago with MP, stamina, and other names for it. Mainstream tabletop has been slow to catch up because of legacy attachment to spell slots and the need we feel to present our hobby as more sophisticated by disparaging anything associated with video-games.
>>47527899
Mage the awakening
>>47528120
You're a cuck if you play that.
>>47530903
>I Hate Casters: The Post
>This'll show them
>I fixed spellcasting by having players do more math and roll more dice
Bravo, you should certainly be included in the development process for Pathfinder 2E if that ever happens.
Mage the Awakening has mana. But not all spells use it.
>>47543129
>Pathfinder 2E
Pathfinder exists mainly to give 3.5 players support for their edition after WotC dropped it. Unless they somehow develop a serious fanbase of their own, making PF 2e would spell the death of PF and send out another diaspora of burned 3.pf players.
