I'm not a fan of the second edition, I don't think it carried over much of what I liked from the first one at all in either setting or rules (Especially rules, though the entire setting has changed as well)

I was following the development pretty closely for a while but dealing with Wick just wore me out and I gave up any hope for it.

>>47519400
As someone who's barely cracked open the book and knows nothing about either edition, you'll have to elaborate. All I've done so far is skim through the sorcery, which seems very "the thing you want happens".

>>47519348
The original one was overhyped to hell and then when I actually got around to reading it almost all of it was utter garbage except for like one of the kingdom books.

I haven't read the new one, although i've heard they've added some retarded rules about how the heroes aren't allowed to kill people without becoming NPC villains themselves, but I wouldn't expect much from it based on 1E sucking balls and John Wick being in charge.

>>47519465
>As someone who's barely cracked open the book and knows nothing about either edition, you'll have to elaborate. All I've done so far is skim through the sorcery, which seems very "the thing you want happens".

>>47519348
7th Sea should have a trigger warning for fans of the Swashbuckling genre, fans of 17th century Europe and just Europeans in general desu.

>John Wick

>>47519431

The first edition was a completely different system called Roll and Keep. Well known for both 7th Sea and L5R it was a fun system that managed to allow excellent precision in working out exactly how good someone was. For example, someone with 4k4 was very capable but lacking precision a bit as they had no option but to take every die they rolled. 6k4 wasn't much more powerful but it did a much better job of allowing precision. They could more easily choose to take a guy alive rather than obliterate him in a duel.

For the second edition, they scrapped that system entirely for something exceptionally different that I don't feel works as well. The villain system in particular is very poorly done. It treats 'literally everything a villain can personally do' as a single stat. You want your villain to be a cunning and charismatic cardinal who can lie to the PCs faces and have them never know it? Well, he's going to also be the best damn swordsman about because that's that the rules make him. The influence system is better done but utterly hamstrung by it's recommendation for a GM to just flat cheat if he doesn't like the players winning too much and refill the villain's influence off-screen. It defeats the point of having such a system in the first place.

It's also a rather trivial cost for a villain to just turn someone's best friend against them as a new villain, just because the villain spent a couple of his points. It really promotes players vs GM mentality. Something Wick is very familiar with.

That and Wick decided he wanted to entirely change one countries (Not!Russia) magic into something different between editions despite it's strong ties to the setting and metaplot and create an entirely new country with it's own history and magic Just Because.

>>47519500
1E books can more or less be divided up into three categories.
1. Badly written, and edited, garbage with nonsensical rules and generally a feel that the writer hates the source material. (this is everything to do with sailing and pirates)
2. Badly written and full of masturbatory material as the writer absolutely loves his hollywood-ized view of the people in question (generally Celts and bits of the Arthurian crap).
3. Badly written but material you could potentially use in the middle of actual play and *gasp* includes actual hooks. (notSpaniards and notItalians mainly)

>>47519465

>I haven't read the new one, although i've heard they've added some retarded rules about how the heroes aren't allowed to kill people without becoming NPC villains themselves

That's more or less Wick's opinion yes.

Much like L5R is 'I saw half a samurai movie and remember half of that' under his command, L5R is 'I saw half a swashbuckling movie and remember half of that'. Unfortunately, this swashbuckling movie was The Legend of Zorro.

John Wick felt that a swashbuckling game required no rules for dueling or for acrobatically dodging attacks.

>>47519568

...that second instance of L5R should have been '7th Sea'

Other things unironically said/done by john wick

>Ronin have no place in the Samurai Genre
>I'm going to make the guy immune to diseases catch a disease so I can crow that he's immune to the cure due to his immunity.
>I'm going to have a character using their Good Luck perk get in a worse situation as a result.

>>47519348
It's great, over all. It's one of the few games I've played that does the "job" style of class thing (the warmachine and hordes games do it too, and a few others) where I went in with an idea and not only was it possible, the game generally made it better than I first considered. (I wanted to make a scarred Eisen vet, turns out there's a background for that and it's called Krieger.) Anyway, action scene resolution looks a bit...floaty, for lack of a better word, so I'm gonna have to actually play it more to get a solid grasp on it, but over all the new setting stuff is great, the old setting stuff was always solid, the changes to existing setting are generally for the best, and over all I'm very happy with it. And it was fast too, fuck. If this was almost any other rpg kickstarter we'd still be two years away from "ok guys, the project is almost back on track and we're looking to have a first pass of the core book ready by 2020".

>>47519741
Apparently my go-to phrase while tired is "over all". Learn something new every day.

>>47519555
>>47519568
>>47519614
Is this going to be like the Starfinder thread, where it's just people going "if you have fun with this you're literally retarded"?

>>47519531
Sounds like it's a very narrative system. That's the impression I'm getting from skimming things. I'm seeing lots of references to roles like Hero and Villain, as well as things like Hero Points.

>>47519568
>“I Dodge”
>You may notice there is no “Dodge” skill. This is intentional.
>We don’t want any player to ever say, “I dodge.”
>Why? Because it’s boring.
>Instead of saying, “I don’t want to get hit,” explain how your character acts to avoid getting hit. Don’t just “dodge.” Instead, cut the rope holding the chandelier and swing up to the roof. Jump under your enemy’s blade so you are standing behind him. Kick the candelabra’s hot wax into your enemy’s eyes as he thrusts his sword toward you.
>You don’t want to say, “I dodge” because that just maintains the status quo of the scene. A success in that case means that nothing changes. Instead, use your Action to change the circumstance of the Scene. Throw a table on them. Make the other people in the room laugh at them for trying to stab you. Demoralize them. Confuse your opponent into striking someone else.
>Be creative. Don’t be passive. Don’t use your Risk to just say “No.” Use your Risk to take action.
I'm still just skimming, but that one is literally a bookmark in the table of contents. I don't necessarily disagree, either. There's also a sidebar that talks about "dodging without dodging" when your goal is just to buy time and distract someone, with examples like using a drapery to catch their sword, or climbing a scaffolding.

>>47519775
I've noticed that /tg/ seeks out shit to get butthurt about when it comes to RPGs. Maybe that's self evident, but still, it's a little weird when it happens. I suspect interpreting "don't murder helpless people if you wish to call yourself a hero" as "nobody can ever kill anybody in 7th sea even once" will stand alongside...I dunno, that thing from Reign with the horses or whatever as an example of missing an entire game for one line of misrepresented text.

>>47519775

>I'm still just skimming, but that one is literally a bookmark in the table of contents.

That was part of my issue with it, yes.

I'm reminded of the final duel in Rob Roy. It's a dramatic, climatic fight...but a large amount of it is parrying and dodging without changing the circumstances of the scene. A large amount of fencing is based around parrying and evading.

>>47519775

>Is this going to be like the Starfinder thread, where it's just people going "if you have fun with this you're literally retarded"?

No, if you have fun you have fun.

You can enjoy something made by a terrible person. A lot of music goes straight to that. I'd never be able to listen to Bein' Green if I spent all my time thinking about what Kermit did in a Taiwanese prison.

My comments were mostly about the Dev himself being a pretty terrible person and my personal issues with 2e than saying 'You can't have fun with it'

>>47519828
But it's saying that you shouldn't need a specific skill for that. I feel like this book wants you to Flynn it. Cut the rope and fly away and things like that, as opposed to standing there taking swings at each other and blocking. You don't really need a specific skill for that. I'm not entirely sure I agree (the book looks like it only has like, eight skills, and I really don't like that kind of almost-freeform thing; it's almost worse than games with a thousand skills like GURPS, or just loads of them like oWoD and D20 and Dark Heresy)

>>47519816
I think people just enjoy hating things. It's a thing that's really been pissing me off lately. I can't mention that I'm doing something without five people jumping down my throat to tell me how much it sucks and I shouldn't enjoy it. Heaven help you if you mention a remake or adaptation, those are LITERALLY the worst and will give you actual for real ass cancer if you so much as see the trailer.

>>47519858
Iunno. I feel like most "the Dev said something stupid" hate is overblown and out of context. Except the CthulhuTech developer. Holy shit he really is an asshole who doesn't want people to touch his precious baby. I'm surprised 2e is apparently releasing with Creative Commons.

>>47519816
>"don't murder helpless people if you wish to call yourself a hero"
Villains are killed all the time in Swashbuckling stories.
Only a complete jackoff like Wick would see that and think "hmm, to emulate this genre properly what we need is a corruption mechanic to turn player characters into NPCs if they act in line with the genre".

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>>47519939

>Iunno. I feel like most "the Dev said something stupid" hate is overblown and out of context.

Behold, Context!

The book, written by John Wick himself about how to fuck over players!

Some devs do get more hate than they really deserve. John Wick is not one of them. He's gone off at people for buying only one copy of his games to play with their friends rather than each player owning a copy of the game and called it piracy.

>>47519964
The rule serves a number of purposes. First, it makes recurring bad guys easier, which I as a GM appreciate in this type of genre game. Second, it makes sure your PC's aren't serial killers. It's not that you CAN'T kill, but you have to be serious about it. First dig two graves and all that. Secondly, it's GM discretion. Inigo probably gets a pass for the Six Fingered Man, but The Reaper who kills every Vodacce he meets? That guy is a Villain, and will end up as such. Don't torture and don't murder aren't baffling concepts trying to ruin your fun.

>>47520029
I guess that should be thirdly. Whatever.

>>47519939
John Wick is famous for being an unlikeable asshole and for making shit up to boot.
He makes up a new lie in order to piss people off and jew money out of the controversy every time he releases a new game.
His latest spiel to gather attention before 7th Sea was when he claimed a bunch of easily disprovable bullshit about Tomb of Horrors and claimed it's (non-existent) advice destroyed his friendships as a kid and then went on to make up some bullshit interaction with Gygax where he totally had a mic drop moment according to himself.
He's pretty much the platonic ideal of the utterly retarded Dev.

>>47519964
But that's not remotely true. First off, emulating a genre doesn't mean emulating every single aspect of it; for instance I can't think of anyone other than Count Rugen who dies in Princess Bride. I don't think anyone but Barbossa dies on screen in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, either. Second...
>>47520029
I'm literally looking at the Corruption mechanic and while "four evil acts (without repenting) and you're a villain" is pretty harsh, there are literally two things that count: Causing UNNECESSARY suffering and Inaction that leads to innocents suffering. There's nothing here about killing people, except for the example where a guy becomes a highwayman and robs a carriage and kills everyone, and pushes a child out of a tower. And even after child murder, wanton slaughter, and also torture, the character in question is not a Villain.

>>47520097
>But that's not remotely true
The most common form of Swashbuckling stories are about revenge.

>>47520097
So, on the one hand you're kinda right, the corruption mechanics don't mention it, but sadly on the other there's this on page 296:
Murder in 7th Sea
In the 7th Sea game system, characters aren’t killed, they become Helpless. Even gunfire cannot kill a character without a deliberate act from a Hero or a Villain.
That act is called murder. Murder is always an Evil Act, under any and all circumstances.
Heroes do not commit murder. Ever.
Self-defense is not murder, nor is defending
someone else from murder. Heroes only kill when their hands are forced by Villains and their cronies.
Heroes do not enjoy killing, they regret it. The act haunts some Heroes to their graves.

And i'm of two minds on it. As I said in my post there, I get why the rule exists, and I mostly support it. But. If one is eager to be offended, and trying to find shit to get pissed about, rules as written Inigo might lose his character for killing the six fingered man. And that's horse shit. I mean, there is flex. There's tons of flex. The next paragraph is "But it's up to the GM seriously". However, if you ONLY run rules as written, it's a bit...weird.

>>47520165

Which is weird when a HEAP of people are killed in The Three Musketeers (Book). Heck, D'Artagnan nearly kills (the man barely gets away) an officer of the guard very early in the book. Yeah, the man worked for the Cardinal but he was acting properly as a member of the guard at that time as D'Artagnan was in the middle of an illegal duel in the middle of the street.

>>47520165

I love how you can be a member of Medieval MI6 as a member of the Avalon Knights but the game says you can't actually kill a guy while doing so.

The current version of the fencing rules make characters without a Swordsman School essentially irrelevant in combat. Their damage is capped so low they could barely hope to withstand two rounds against a brute squad, and stastically speaking need a miracle to so much as scratch a Swordsman. Swordsmen, meanwhile, get to enjoy feeling that they've paid with their character concept for the privilege of BEING ABLE TO USE THE COMBAT SYSTEM, since their "unique" advantage is a single special maneuver which, in one case, IS LITERALLY A REGULAR ONE WITH A DIFFERENT NAME. Mind you, this is after being told by the book that "not all swordsmen are Swordsmen", that non-Swordsmen characters are still supposed to be able to mow down brute squads with impunity and that Swordsmen are supposed to feel as mechanically special and dramatic as Sorcerers.

Now, you'd THINK that the logical solution would be to allow everyone to use the combat system so they aren't completely crippled the moment a sword is drawn, and to give the School Swordsmen a lot of unique special abilities - but then, that's just because you aren't a brilliant game designer like John Wick!

It's nice to know that the Polish are now getting as masturbated over as the Irish. I guess John got scared of every single fucking Revenant user ever making a hobby of shouting about how the game won't work without Poland every week and half. The only complaints about the setting more common than that were a lack of the Americas and Jewish people.

WELP, testing's closed! Three days is PLENTY of time to read the entire 300 page thing in depth, run several trial games, form an educated opinion and criticism and post it on the website! John NEEDS to release the game by GenCon! History teaches us that rushing games for some kind of marketing event at the expanse of testing, editing, and finishing them has always been the smart thing to do!

>>47521370
It's getting an americas with future sourcebooks though.

>>47522156
And it got a Poland with the corebook. The comment just said it was a common request. The complaint was that it feels like it was such a common request Wick must've misunderstood it for "all of my fans are Polish Poleboos" instead of "it'd be nice to also have a Poland equivalent", because rather than just adding them, he made them into giant Mary-Sues. Let's hope the Americas aren't the same and thank God he didn't add Jews.

>>47520165
It takes four Evil Acts and is up to the GM by RAW.
Also, Inigo *did* give up his character, remember?
>"You know, it's very strange. I've been in the revenge business so long now that it's over I do not know what to do with the rest of my life."
>"Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts."

>>47520213
Clearly they're going for the Disney movie version, not the book, which was written at a very different time period and culture.

Its only me or Hexenwerk has a lot in common with Witcher's Alchemy in the Witcher series?

So, if you want to fight, you practically have to get a Dueling school?

Non-duelists don't have access to maneuvers, right?

>>47523277
At least it isn't like 1e where Swordsmen Schools were so weak in general that being a Stat Monkey was always the best option for the points.

>>47523277
Pretty much. The difference in combat ability between Duelists and non-Duelists now is so extreme as to almost make mixed parties impossible. You either have a party of non-Duelists and everyone just plays knowing that any combat would kill them all (which is... a way of playing a swashbuckling game, I guess), a party of all-Duelists who have paid the Advantage tax and will thus have nothing else special about them, or mix and then watch as every fight becomes a dialogue between the Duelist and the GM while everyone else goes to play a video game until it's over, because giving them turns is just gonna waste time.

>>47523333
Witnessed.

> Yes, this means a Villain can roll as many as 10 to 20 dice for a single Risk. How do Heroes overcome such monumental foes? The same way you eat a whale: one bite at a time.

> Villainous Strength is permanent. It changes rarely (if ever) and acts as a measure of the Villain’s threat as an individual.

Wick at his best.

>>47523466
>The antagonist is stronger than any single PC
I'm honestly not seeing a problem with this. I get that people have a hateboner for John Wick, but making an antagonist that can be defeated one on one by any member of a five person party is a good way to have an anticlimactic fight.

>>47519939
>Except the CthulhuTech developer. Holy shit he really is an asshole who doesn't want people to touch his precious baby

What did he say?

>>47523466
Wick at his very best would've had the Villain getting a +5 strength for using a katana - despite no other weapon even having rules. Maybe in the Far East book.

>>47523494

Except basicly every villain in the swashbuckling genre is taken down in a climatic duel with someone with a personal stake rather than 4 people ganging up on him.

But the issue there is villains are basically insurmountable in a physical challenge.

An influence-based villain can actually be taken on multiple times and worn down. A Strength based villain is basically just a 'Are you strong enough?' challenge and generally no, you are not strong enough.

>>47525522
Made doubly worse by the system's minimal randomness. The vast, vast majority of the time you're gonna score exactly 1/2 as many trait+skill you have in Raises. It's so certain you can practically forgo the rolling and just treat it as a given. It also means that barring miracles, Villains with a strength higher than twice any Hero's relevant trait+skill are basically invincible.

>>47523828
Just a lot of "if you don't do this my way you're playing wrong". Want to be a Tager who pilots a Mech? Too bad, the game should implode if you ever get into a Mech. Want to change one of the modules so the villain doesn't get away (or maybe there's just less rape)? You're doing it wrong.

>>47525522
>Except basicly every villain in the swashbuckling genre is taken down in a climatic duel with someone with a personal stake rather than 4 people ganging up on him.
And in the fantasy genre the Chosen One defeats the BBEG and in action movies the lone protagonist fights off all the gangsters and bodyguards alone. Roleplaying games are group activities. I have never statted an antagonist boss character to be on the same level as a single PC.

>>47526842

>I have never statted an antagonist boss character to be on the same level as a single PC.

Really? I did it all the time in the first edition of 7th Sea. That's what the dueling rules were FOR. Generally the final battle came down to a couple of big duels while the non-personally invested PCs held off the mooks long enough for vengence/justice.

>>47526913
Even then I'd ere on the side of gobs of health, and they'd likely have more skill ranks in things like socializing or intimidating and other things besides just fighting.

>>47521335
>which, in one case, IS LITERALLY A REGULAR ONE WITH A DIFFERENT NAME
You mean Leegstra's Crash? I think the point is that since you can't use the same move twice in a row, a move which functions as a Slash but isn't actually a Slash can be pretty powerful. You can Slash>Leegstra's Crash>Slash with impunity to deliver an unstoppable barrage of damage.

>>47528716
Speaking of Leegstra...fucking dammit Wick, Leegstra was the single Heavy Weapon School, Urostifter was the two weapon school.

>>47529860
At least there's finally a Russian swordsman school using an actual sword. I get it that the Russians are behind with the times, but, you know, AT LEAST ONE. And the gypsy one doesn't count, they're practically their own nation if you go by the rules.

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>>47530257
Which people are gypsies?
OP here and I have no character concept and the game is in whenever and I'm basically just trying to choose a character based on what's in my character art folder. I've got a lot of fan art of Esmeralda from Hunchback of Notre Dame and was thinking I could use that. I was thinking a Hexenwurker, but I only have two images of Gisa from MtG. Or I could make a Highlander and use art of Senua from Hellblade.

Although I should probably just give up and go play a vidya, since we're talking two hours to digest this book and make a character. I am an expert at procrastinating.

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>>47530479
>Esmeralda
>Gypsy
Pic related are gypsies.

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>>47530595
Your mother's a gypsy

Why is there a dogmatic and anti-scientific Inquisition in the Gnostic church?

>>47519348
I'm doing a one-shot with my group.
The completed version of the game is actually allaying some of my overall fears, and once I remove Danger Dice (or just use them very sparingly) I think I might be satisfied with it.

>I kinda wanna play a gross corpse eating necromancer. One of the spells is literally eating brains. It really is pretty disgusting. I'm glad there aren't any pictures
One of my PC's is playing a "good Hexe" who tries to use his gross sorceries for good purposes, and is basically the ship's Doctor and a "learned man" who tries to emotionally distance himself from it and be morally upright about using Hexe.

>>47532503
Because the Third Prophet was crazy.

>>47519828
That's what the Dueling mechanics are for.

Having a preset and specific Ending to the Story mechanic gets weird. Getting revenge or settling your obligation as an Ending makes sense but "My Hero dies at the hands of her enemy." or " My Hero’s lover is brutally murdered in front
of him." has no suspense, the twist ending is spoiled before you even hear the premise.

>>47520228
No . It says you can't MURDER them.
It says in that same chapter that heroes can defend themselves (which means they can kill in self-defense) but they won't just needlessly escalate shit to killing people when it's not needed.
Also, that's literally the easiest problem to fix in the entire world, no exaggerating; you just ignore that entire thing and make Corruption only a part of using dark sorcery or evil magic and then the problem is resolved.

So to fix it you just do nothing.

>>47532641
I disagree, but then again I'm used to games with Destiny Feats/Edges/Talents/Traits/Merits/Whatevers.
In Chronicles of Darkness for instance there's Cursed, where you know how you're going to die, so everything else that doesn't kill you just makes you stronger, and the Destiny merit, where you get a pool of bonus points that you can spend on things, but have some kind of a metaphorical bane.

Plus my ideal character story ends with them doing a noble sacrifice to let everyone else escape the final encounter.

>>47532703
It actually says that no one ever dies unless they're murdered, they just become Helpless, but that it's up to GM discretion.
It also takes four Evil Acts without repentance to 100% for sure become a Villain.

>>47532593
And the Third Prophet everyone knows was a False Prophet and probably a Thalusian in disguise. The Real Third Prophet's message was saved by the Knights of the Rose and Cross in the form of The Vow and The Secret.

>>47532734
And you fix the rule by saying "Nope".
It's not like I dunno, RIFTS or 3.X or a game that takes a shitload of work to make it work, the annoying gamey "Me vs Them" elements I literally just ignored and suddenly everyone had fun as remarkable as that sounds.
Admittedly, I wasn't expecting a perfect system because there won't ever be one and I don't need shit spoonfed to me to houserule a thing....it might just me that I had realistic expectations and a group that didn't have a "Written Rules Only" Buttplug permanently up it's ass.

>>47532774
That's how it used to be anyway.
I'm thinking some of the metaplot might have been jettisoned completely, as so far the only actual "bloodline sorcery" is Porte.
Not that I might them changing that shit.

>The first Pirate King was named Roberts
Heh

>>47532804
Yeah. I'm just saying that "LITERALLY ONE MURDER AND YOU BECOME A DEMON" is a massive inaccuracy.

Also I still have no concept, but it looks like the only other person with a character isn't around. One other person did make a character in the time I've been futzing around with reading the setting.

Character concepts are:
>Lady Musketeer who was encouraged by her father's legacy and wields his rapier
>Soldier turned itinerant priest who has a penchant for pugilism
I'm thinking a wizard of some sort might be a good addition to this group, especially if we're going monster hunting.

>>47532895
It's "Rogers" actually.
He was in 1e, the legendary first pirate.
He actually WAS "The Dread Pirate Rogers" though, and he's the reason in Theah the flag is called "The Jolly Roger".
The addition that the term "a Jonah" coming from the term of the guy who betrayed Roberts is new though, and I like it.

>>47533019
>The first members of Brotherhood, all victims of the Black Spots’ relentless crusade, joined forces and signed a charter of mutual protection. Under their First King—the legendary Captain Roberts—the Brotherhood defeated their enemies and reclaimed the seas from the schemes of Castillian nobles.

>>47532704
I guess more than the spoiling angle I'm hung up on you die or you retire being a suggested goal for a character advancement system.

Is there a PDF of the 2nd edition floating around anywhere? I'm curious to see it.

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>>47533160
Backers got the draft of it this weekend. They wanted us to provide an extra layer of proofreading so they can get it to the printers that much quicker. They are to ship before Gen Con so they can sell there.

The SJW is strong in 2e.

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>>47533308

>>47533308
Every time the book treat an unknown entity, it's written as a female. Just Ctrl+F 'She' and laugh.

>>47533130
I'm fine with that, too.

>>47533308
>Gay people exist in the setting
>Obviously this is the work of a shadowy cabal.
Also that's clearly someone using We're Not So Different.

>>47533330
>Taking the Jenny in every port into the crow's nest
>Discharging a firearm wantonly
Holy shit someone make a cat-o-nine-tails, the bosun has some discipline to mete out.

>>47533345
So?
Vampire the Masquerade did that over 20 years ago and people still get riled up over it? What are you, the CthulhuTech developer?

>>47533308
>>47533330
It's really just those two pictures though, plus that one Knight of the Round who was a foreign man who I think was either from the Crescent Empire or Ifri, who's foreigness was noted but ignored because he was a badass and Avalonians love a good story about badasses.
It helps that Theah's primary religion is basically one that is Humanist at heart says that everyone is awesome and learning and exploring is cool, and despite the two pieces of art it seems to me that the text itself is pretty neutral about it.
It also helps that my group is not one of the whiny shrieking frog cunts who whine about people's "triggers" but then are triggered themselves at the SLIGHTEST mention of anything that might even REMOTELY be construed as SJW-focused.
I'm still not even sure why /tg/ gets so upset over it, to be perfectly honest.

>>47533378
No problem. Treating everything as female is grammatically wrong in my language, so I get a kek when it shows up on another. Good white knighting, tho. It'll really impress the ladies (or dudes, if that's your thing).

>>47533378
>Vampire the Masquerade did that over 20 years ago and people still get riled up over it? What are you, the CthulhuTech developer?

/tg/ doesn't read or play games.
They just complain about them on here.

>>47533457
Well...he IS right.
It's something a couple of companies did a really long time ago, actually. White Wolf used to do that all the time, I remember it all over the place in oWoD stuff.....

What do people think about the roll-and-assemble-Raises mechanic instead of the old Roll and Keep? I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. It seems like Wick wants to cram as much action into each individual roll as possible.

>>47533421
Those people don't really exist. They're like the stories of Jews eating children. /tg/ gets upset because they believe those stories, and also feel that anyone criticizing social structures they benefit from (and others suffer under) means they want to LITERALLY murder them.

Also, there's a black guy in the art about Avalon with someone who I assume is Queen Elaine... stepping on some guy's back and sneering at him as he sheathes his blade? But if I'm understanding right, Not!England had a bunch of Moors and Germans come become soldiers.

>>47533457
But your language isn't English, so no one cares about it.

>>47533498
It's got some flaws definitely, but right now my biggest problem is that my players (who are regularly descriptive and inventive enough to have 4+ dice in many rolls) often succeed way too easily and I don't give them enough Opportunities and benefits for Raises above what they need.
Basically the main problem I have right now is that I'm midjudging how many Raises they tend to get.

>>47533623
>But if I'm understanding right, Not!England had a bunch of Moors and Germans come become soldiers.

Actually, the German mercenary thing happened in real life to some degree.
By the American Revolution there were entire mercenary units in the British Army composed of Germans ("Hessians") who were used as light infantry. Amusingly they had more actual success against the Revolutionaries then the Regulars did because they were largely scout and ambush units that could better fight the Americans who kept fucking up supply lines and shit.
Some turned coat and fought for the Revolution because they were promised land, which is why relatively early on New England had such a decent German population.

>>47520029
>Don't torture and don't murder aren't baffling concepts trying to ruin your fun.
You must be new here.
/tg/ faps so hard to murder and torture and especially justifying these acts as not only necessary, but morally correct that any game that considers such acts unsavoury immediately becomes a target of revulsion.

>>47533686
You are so close to actual history it hurts.
George the 3rd was also an elector lord in the Holy Roman Empire (the area now known as Germany). Many of his soldiers were his. Not the ones from Hesse. But many others. Also, the "German" populace in "New England" were largely left over Dutch from when New York was New Amsterdam.

>>47533767
>>47533686
I know about Hessians. The Headless Horseman was a Hessian. But this is like pre-colonial era.

>>47533707
I just had an argument earlier today about how killing someone hurting your Wisdom in Mage 2e was a terrible game design choice and that there should be no consequences for killing a hobo and eating his soul.

>>47526913
I actually really like the sound of that and prefer that to 5v1 boss fight, to be honest. Everyone is included and has a role but the personally invested PC gets to feel like they "won" the encounter. That's group play.

>>47519614
John Wick's Hero System horror stories are pretty amazing. He basically had the main villain be the Maxwell Lord type that was backing the hero team. His power was basically "Read the character's sheets, bludgeon them with their disads" with moments like revealing a heroe's identity in front of their grandmother, making her have a heart attack and die.

>>47534021
Yeah, but what does everyone else do while Inigo is dueling Rugen?

>>47534078
What?

>>47533308
>The SJW is strong in 2e.

Looks like someone got triggered by gay people.

Full of pandering, virtue-signaling. It couldn't be more obvious.

Sorte got dumbfucked and made the witches less interesting. Say the name three times, while looking at the target and kiss? Only a Raise? Fuck that's dumb. In 1ed there were feared because they could fuck your luck up by just knowing your name and face. In 2ed the fear is gone - just do not cross any woman wearing black in Vodacce, which will be easy as fuck.

>>47519400
I like it more than 1e but that's because I only got into 1e not that long ago so I don't have this deeply entrenched love of it. The parts of it I dislike are not nearly as extensive as in 1e though there's still some wrist slittingly stupid shit.

>>47520165
I feel like this and some other text were written before the rest of the game. The Assassin background literally gives you hero points for killing people in defense of others.

>>47523333
Or the non-duelist packs a brace of pistols. But yeah, mostly what you said. Though given the way backgrounds work, you can pay the tax and probably still wind up with a mess of interesting advantages. Or just pick Duelist background and use your freed up points to personalize more. I made a duelist with this the other day, and did that and still feel like I have a bit more advantages than I want to keep in mind at all times

>>47535146
>Virtue signalling
This might surprise you, but sometimes people actually CAN care about things. And sometimes signalling your virtues is a way to show to other people that you care about them. It's something to do with human empathy.

>>47535225
What don't you like and what is stupid?

So far I feel that a lot of the stuff seems sort of tacked on, or not fully thought out. All the countries are sort of "stereotype on their sleeve", and the major conflicts don't really feel meaningful. The Inquisition especially feels weird considering it's an excuse to have the Spanish Inquisition in an otherwise Gnostic church, so they're literally part of a religion of knowledge killing people for doing science. The Schism between Objectionist and Vaticine also doesn't seem as meaningful even as Protestant and Catholic.

>>47535359
My main problem with the Backgrounds is that I don't really want any of them. All the ones that have Quirks I like don't have Skills or Advantages I like. I really dislike "package" character creation. It's the same problem I had with Witch Hunters and all the Warhammer systems. I'd rather just get x points to make my own. Which, thankfully unlike Witch Hunters or Warhammer, all the Backgrounds here have the same amount of skill points and Advantages. I'm also not too hot on region locked magic. Why can't someone teach me to eat brains just because I'm from a different country? What if I want to be the lost daughter of a Not!French noble's dalliance with an Avalonian woman who has Porte?

Also, OP here. I went with the gross necromancer. I didn't feel like Hexe fit (since I wanted more to be someone who studies monsters as opposed to fervently destroys the zombies) but I took it anyway. I also took Jenny because gross necromancer prostitutes. I'm also making a Sorte (who's also a Jenny) because after going through the Arcana that concept also kind of interests me.

>>47530479
In the first edition, they were called the Fhideli, or the Cymbar in Vodacce. I don't think they're mentioned in 2nd edition.

>>47535978
>This might surprise you, but sometimes people actually CAN care about things. And sometimes signalling your virtues is a way to show to other people that you care about them. It's something to do with human empathy.

There's a difference between showing people that you care about stuff and pandering, virtue signalling to smell your own fart of "how great of a person I am." We can take the ghays in the book. Why have two homosexual romance pictures? Why not one and the other straight? Wouldn't that appease both crowds? Yes, it would, but this is pandering we are talking about. In almost all the art you can see opposite sex in only two poses - "we are working together" or "I hate the other one's guts". That's it. No hint of romance even.

>>47532895
>Lady Musketeer who was encouraged by her father's legacy and wields his rapier
Sadly, the concept behind what may be the greatest "swashbuckler" in real world history, Julie D'Aubigny, doesn't really work in 7th Sea. Theah is a gender equal society (except in Vodacce). Lady fencers aren't all that rare. Nothing overly unique about being one.

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>>47536050
"It's only pandering when it's not pandering to me"
Do you complain if a book has two heterosexual kisses? It's not like there aren't references to heterosexuality scattered throughout the book. I actually haven't seen an explicit homosexual relationship mentioned in the text, only those two posts. At best you've got things like "Jenny" not being gender locked.

>>47536060
She wasn't trying to be unique. She just wanted to be a musketeer. Also, a lot of the individual societies aren't really gender egalitarian. Vesten isn't and neither is the Highlands. I've seen at least one mention of women being looked down on for something. It seems like things are egalitarian but still Masculine-As-Default.

>>47536328
My bad, I think I confused Vesten with Vodacce. Still, a lot of these default to "a man must live by such and such standards".
Also fuck me I did a shitty job of cleaning up that image.

>>47536328
>She wasn't trying to be unique. She just wanted to be a musketeer.
Than what does it matter that she's a lady? Your character concept is "musketeer". In our own history, at times when it was unthinkable for a woman to hold a sword, the very fact that one decided to do so would've been enough to make her famous (that Julie D'Aubigny we've mentioned went on to no longer do that, but lead a life that reads like the biography of Jack Sparrow is completely aside the matter). If gender doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

>>47536363
And yeah, I'm pretty sure you meant Vodacce. It's the only society in Theah where sexism is a big thing. Vesten is specifically not, because Wick drank the Shield-Maiden kool aid and thinks warrior women were all over ancient Scandinavia and the Vendel are all progressive.

>>47536328
>me: how about some equality between the art?
>"It's only pandering when it's not pandering to me"
Shit, bro. Can't you read?

>>47536050
I love how most of this thread talks about John Wick being such an out-of-touch asshole, and yet, any art that sets certain anons off means he's OBVIOUSLY pandering to people!
Look, Wick gives zero fucks.
Zero. Fucks.
Sometimes, this is great. Other times - most of the time, even - this just results in a whole lot of facepalms.
If black and gay people showed up in 7th Sea, it's not because he was trying to win friends.
I'm not going to pretend that crazy SJWs don't exist - I've met them. And yes, they're annoying little whiners, who yell about any art that doesn't meet their specific standards.
Just. Like. You.

>>47536431
>me: Full of pandering, virtue-signaling. It couldn't be more obvious.
>get bashed for not understanding "human empathy"
>me: explain what I mean
>you: YOU ARE A WHINER!

lol, try again

Wow.
It's true; you really can't talk about anything at all on 4chan without the entire conversation turning to shit.
I came in here just now to talk about the game and all I find are a couple of whiny cunts arguing about an optional zero-effort fantasyland game.

For fuck's sake; if you don't like it, don't play it, it's not something worth arguing over like it's the fine details of your religious denomination.
It's a John Wick game for fuck's sake; you're probably caring more about it then he fucking did.

>>47520023
what a twat.

>>47536556
As someone who's had the dubious privilege to play with him as GM twice; yeah, he really is. Guy's game designs are workable once you strip the uh....HIM out of them though.

It's kinda like a game with a lot of potential that has a shit GM and then everyone gets tired and kicks him out and then it gets a lot better with him gone, only with rules changes.
Plus I like to think it'd piss him off nothing else in the world that you're having his fun wrong, and that warms my heart, petty as it may seem.

>>47536390
Because the character is a lady. Why did you assume her being a lady was supposed to be unique just because it was mentioned? It's only unique because the default player in most situations is expected to be male.
>>47536401
Highlanders also have a sexually stratified society with "men and women have power in different ways". Also, Scandinavia was pretty progressive, all things considered. And Vendel doesn't seem any more progressive or "SJW" than any other country.

>>47536402
>>47536457
There is equality in the art. Do you really need to have a 1 to 1 ratio of heterosexual depictions and homosexual depictions? I guarantee you there's a lot more heterosexual depictions in art, so a book skewing towards the gays isn't exactly tipping the scales. And again, there's quite a lot of heterosexuality in the book.

>>47536431
People who get called "SJWs" are generally not whining so much as lamenting the sad state of things, and the rare few who are vitriolic are that way because the world tells them to shut up all the time.

>>47536506
>It's true; you really can't talk about anything at all on 4chan without the entire conversation turning to shit.
Yup

>>47536577
>the dubious privilege to play with him as GM twice
Can storytime save this thread?

>>47536639
>Can storytime save this thread?
Admittedly I'm new to 4chan, but I think "No" is the genuine answer here.
Besides, there's not much to tell; I was at two separate cons and he was GMing two different games at two different times, one of L5R and another of 7th Sea.

He was just a piss-poor GM; both times he wanted to tell a story and have you basically be observers of the storytelling process and then pat him on the back about how great it was after you spent a session nearly entirely as passive observers where cool stuff happened to but that ultimately didn't affect the plot because he already knew how it would end.
There wasn't anything remotely special or unique or noteworthy about it and I've seen it before with several other GM's and in the short time I've been here I've read people experiencing similar things with other GM's and even once of being the type of GM I'm complaing about.
The only thing unique about it was that this guy happens to have a famous name. The mundanity of it was ridiculous.

>>47536639
>It's only unique because the default player in most situations is expected to be male.
DIE CIS SCUM

>>47535978
You like playing adventuring hookers or was it because you wanted their skill set and some of the quirks? Also it isn't that hard to make a new background, since I feel like there's room to improvise. File some of the advantages off one that has skills you want and replace them with five points of new ones and rename it. Most GMs would be fine with a bit of that fiddling.

Wasn't much a problem for me because I really like a few of them specifically. I am making an Ussuran whaler just for fun because I want to split my lungs with blood and thunder.

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>>47535978
>All the countries are sort of "stereotype on their sleeve", and the major conflicts don't really feel meaningful.

Sad thing is, this is better than 1e. I also like how they tied the War of the Cross in with the rising tide of corruption and social change within the church that led to Montaigne flat out rejecting it in their nobility and the rise of the Inquisition.

The Third Prophet was probably a false prophet, re: the Inquisition existing also.

But the stuff I don't like is often where you can literally see earlier draft stuff that Wick refused to cut even as the game changed more, like his extended Heroes' Don't Kill section when there's literally backgrounds based on killing for a good cause. It feels like he wrote it and then the other writers came into the game and he refused to get rid of it or tone it down to 'Heroes don't kill wantonly or are cruel'.

Also they don't make it clear save buried in like one page in Montaigne what the status of the war with Castille and Ussura is, when you think those should be prominently explained within both of those nation's chapters. I don't like how if you aren't a duelist, overloaded with guns, or using the right type of magic you really can't participate in a fight more than one good hit a turn.

That being said, I actually kind of like the new action resolution mechanics where your raises form an action pool. I like Ussura being more than a total afterthought. I like how easy it is to write new duelist schools. I find char gen quick and easy and have been dicking round with it just for fun. Villain rules are fine but there needs to be a note for GMs to not exceed X villainy without them being huge setting villains. All in all I have less weird quibbles with it than 1e even though it loses some things I liked in the first edition to get there. I'm looking forward to playing a proper game with it now and see how the system handles players doing stupid player things.

>>47536050
>Not counting that pic of Queen Elaine and the black knight being smug around a defeated, kneeling vaticine as hetero romance

>>47540986
Was that a thing?

>>47541201
She's resting her foot on the back of a dude in a Vaticine tabard who is face down in the dirt while said knight looks on smugly. I say it is true love.

For real though, what did the Vaticines ever do to her? I mean besides the bloodshed and the wars and the Armada?

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>>47540962
Oh I also forgot how I hate the random dice roll part of the corruption mechanic. Possibly because I was trying to even forget it existed. Just give a strikes system or something rather than mixing that up with random fucking luck

>>47539153
Those eyes plundered my heart.

>>47536696
Well maybe but I wanna hear what actually happened.

>>47540873
>You like playing adventuring hookers or was it because you wanted their skill set and some of the quirks?
Both. Mostly I picked it for the first one because it was funny and for the second because it fits better.

>>47540962
I don't necessarily MIND that the write ups are all stereotypes. But with all the social upheavel and stuff, it's hard for me to get a sense of why Heroes would actually ADVENTURE. In the "Heroes from this country" chapter it's all why I'd be heroing in my home country, but this game clearly wants me to play multinational no-murderhobos. It reminds me of Degenesis in that way; All factions are culture and religion locked, but your band of adventurers is meant to be multiethnic.
Come to think of it, it also has a similar character package chargen system.

The third prophet being false is something someone else brought up here, and I like that idea. If only it was listed as something the Objectionists believe.

I haven't really looked over how combat works, so I'm not sure about that. I do feel that Dueling is way too costly. More so than magic, even.

I think if I ever ran this myself, I'd make character creation more flexible. 2 in every Trait and 3 dots as you wish, choose two Quirks, 15 Advantages, 20 Skills with none over three.

>>47541444
I don't mind it. I like that it adds a bit of tension. I do think "Four and you're instantly evil" is a bit rough, and I wish there was something a bit more meaningful, but eh. Dark Heresy actually has corruption that's done well, I think? Or maybe it was an optional system in M&M? You spend Corruption like a Hero Point but it gives you permanent Corruption. Deal with the devil stuff. Like the Dievi. Which in their write up is like barely mentioned. Magic seems like a footnote to most of the write ups.

>>47541959
While most of the stuff we disagree on is taste and presentation stuff, I am pretty sure that char gen build you propose there might be overpowered with regards to skills.

>>47542071
Eh. I already feel like I got as many things at 3 as I need anyway, and while I hate people putting all their points into something, if you do that you tend to miss out other places.

This is the creepy gross necromancer prostitute's character sheet, by the way:
Brawn ●●, Finesse ●●●, Resolve ●●●, Wits ●●●, Penache ●●●
Jenny, Hexe; Athletics ●●, Intimidate ●●, Notice ●●, Tempt ●●●, Aim ●, Perform ●, Weaponry ●, Empathy ●●, Convince ●, Hide ●●●, Theft ●●●
Dynamic Approach, Come Hither, Cast Iron Stomach, Hexe x3, Survivalist, Valiant Spirit
Virtue: The Tower, Hubris: The Fool

We didn't get to play last night because one of the players was missing. I'll see how I like the Sorte Strega once I finish. Hexe powers feel really... specific. And one shot. And prepared in advance. All the kind of things I don't like out of magic systems...

News from the Kickstarter page: John Wick has just said that after listening to the fans, he's decided to delay both closing off the comments and the actual release in order to put some more work into the product. We may not have to see a buggy mess released just for GenCon after all.

>>47519816
>I've noticed that /tg/ seeks out shit to get butthurt about when it comes to RPGs.
People with strong and/or negative opinions are much more likely to express those opinions. So you rarely get people posting "I think this game is kind of okay, as long as you houserule the villain rules". And it's much more easy to work out a rant about how everything about a game is terrible than it is to rant about what a great game it is.

>>47543375
No it wasn't.

>>47543414
No one ever casually dislikes something. They always have to HATE it passionately. I've never understood this. "Eh, Wick's kind of an ass and I don't care much for narrative systems, but it has a neat alternate history". Why can't someone just say something like that? Or not bother going into threads to hate on things. I don't go to Warhammer threads.

>>47543422
Pretty sure /pol/trolling is bannable.
>Blue box
Tomorrow > Yotsuba B

>>47533378
Pirates are gay.

How progressive.

>>47543629
Well you know.
"Rum, sodomy, and the lash", and all that.

>Wickposting
>in the year of our lawd twenty and sixteen winters
May you forever more be plagued by conniptions.

Can we please just get back to talking about fantasy Europe?

>>47543740
Yes, can we? This other stuff is fucking annoying, as are the paired posters bitching about it, assuming there aren't more.

So, what I got out of the core book (not much admittedly) is that Montaigne's war with Castille is basically stalemated and not going anywhere at this point, same with Ussura too but for different reasons.
Anyone else think so or is that just me?

>>47543774
That was how it was in 1e if I recall.
Castille had some big badass fort that the Montaigne couldn't get through, and Ussura had Matushka screwing over the Montaigne into a stalemate.

>>47543900
I think that Montaigne is basically on the edge of military collapse with too many ventures going at once. In 1e this was all part of what led to their Revolution.

>>47543481
>No one ever casually dislikes something

See, that's the thing. Lots of people do. They just don't bother posting about it because why would they? Popping in to say something like "Eh, I think this game isn't for me because I don't like x" doesn't really add much to the conversation. Shit, like yourself, if they just mildly dislike something, they just won't even read threads about that. Why would they? They already know that they're not interested in the game and they don't really have much to add to the topic.

>>47543740
>fantasy Europe?
Please don't call it that
Easily the worst bit when trying to sell Theah to players is the American misconceptions about Europe embedded in the setting.

>"If its bannable, report me"
Hue

>>47543989
What I mean is that I don't understand why people feel the need to passionately hate a game to the point that they go into the thread about it just to bitch. If you hate 7th Sea or John Wick intensely, why go into the 7th Sea thread?

>>47544033
Why not? Honestly I think that's the more interesting part of the setting, the alternate reality history of it. It's a niche I don't see often. I'd actually really like to see what the setting does with America, and I've always wanted a fantasy Americana setting. Other than feeling like the stereotypes are a bit constraining and the fluff focuses on people who are strongly nationalistic and tied to their country of origin instead of out adventuring, I like the countries.
Actually, I was about to ask what parts of the setting people actually like. That's mine.

>>47544112
>It's a niche I don't see often
So, your first roleplaying game, huh? How's that working out for you?

>>47544112
>the alternate reality history of it.
If by "alternate" you mean completely a Hollywood pastiche that seems actively designed to piss off Spaniards and Italians and to a lesser extent Scandis and Scots then yes.

>>47544112
>What I mean is that I don't understand why people feel the need to passionately hate a game to the point that they go into the thread about it just to bitch. If you hate 7th Sea or John Wick intensely, why go into the 7th Sea thread?
Because they hate it passionately. See, people with strong opinions about things generally want to SHARE those opinions and make other people feel the same way or find other people who already share those opinions. Just look at /pol/. Look at /v/ or /g/. Look at any place where people anonymously or pseudonymously discuss about things. It's not the moderates who talk the most, it's the people who are passionate it, one way or another. It also happens in real life, of course, but being anonymous and not having to worry about social consequences strips people of restraint and multiplies the effect hundredfold.

>>47544112
Actually in 1e they pointed out that the concept of "nationalism" is very new and mostly poorly-formed at this point; this is the equivalent to the 17th Century when a leader didn't need to "sell" an idea to the masses to go to war with someone.
The war could literally be because he was an egotistical prig and wanted more power and then everyone in his country could do fuck-all about it because it's Good To Be The King, especially when it comes to shit like Montaigne's current ruler who was based off a man who strongly believed in divine right to rule and absolutist power in a monarchy.
Some people are nationalistic, but it's not a "default" yet in most nations because that sort of thing isn't yet important in politics or warfare, more something that spies or soldiers or movies directly involved in the war cares about and then everyone else only cared if it affected them somehow.

It wasn't until the 1800's when nationalism TRULY took off because during the Napoleonic age warfare escalated to such a crazy degree that you needed as many people willingly fighting for you as possible to field armies of appreciable size. Theah is not quite there yet (it's still on late-Renissance pike-and-shot tactics), and the French Revolution, which heavily sparked nationalism as a motivating force and which Napoleon encouraged because it garnered him a great deal of support for his army and reforms, hasn't quite happened yet.

>>47519964
>Villains are killed all the time in Swashbuckling stories.
Yeah, but how often are they helpless when they're killed? It's not just killing people, it's killing people who are no threat to you at the time.

>>47544278
>like Montaigne's current ruler who was based off a man who strongly believed in divine right to rule and absolutist power in a monarchy.

Ironically, l'Empereur is written as a teenage edgelord style of atheist.

>>47519348
It's still crap.

>>47544137
Even most fantasy games don't go for "Literally a fantasy version of Europe". They try to pretend it's something different, and add elves and shit.

>>47544189
Sure.

>>47544278
They say the same thing about Nationalism in 2e, but what I mean is that nothing in the write up for the countries gives me any reason to think about something beyond my character's Nation. Everything in the game is based off of your Nation. I mean, the Eisen write up gives me no reason for why anyone from Eisen would ever leave Eisen. It's all about how "this is my land and everyone here is proud of their land and struggling to return it to beauty!" that gives this impression that no one (other than filthy Vaticines) would leave the land to go adventure.

>>47544347
>It's all about how "this is my land and everyone here is proud of their land and struggling to return it to beauty!" that gives this impression that no one (other than filthy Vaticines) would leave the land to go adventure.

Yeah, that's more a flaw in Wick's writing then anything else. You just need to make the assumption that that aspect of shit is wrong or poorly misrepresented and make up your own stuff really.
People would leave their lands in Theah for the same reasons people leave to go adventure in real life; money, a desire for glory, boredom, revenge, a desire to make a life away from their home, no more room in the inheritance for them (that happened a shitload back in the day), a desire to fight war because war is glorious, a desire for freedom for what they see as the shackles of their old life, pursuit of their true love, trying to find that dude with the wrong number of fingers on his left hand who kilt your father when you were a kid, getting back at that son of a bitch who framed you and locked you up for a decade in a prison, finding a lost treasure, etc.

Reasons for adventuring aren't national and don't stem from a nation in most cases; they are personal and stem from personal failings, flaws, virtues, desires, coincidence, needs, and everything else you can think of.

>>47544278
>"nationalism" is very new and mostly poorly-formed at this point
Pop-history that started spreading when some political first learned about the Treaty of Westphalia but never read a single primary source about it.
>everyone in his country could do fuck-all about it because it's Good To Be The King
There are tons of Kings who were executed for far less, by the nobility, by the religious powers and even by the peasantry. One of the oldest norse legends retell how one of their Lawspeakers threatened to execute the King like five others before him if he kept refusing advice and wanted to force a war with the norse to the west.
>It wasn't until the 1800's when nationalism TRULY took off
Nationalism in terms of our people, our culture, our myths and our land goes back as far as written sources go.
The only new concepts from the 17th century is King's vaguely agreeing on each other's undefended borders rather than each one making claims based on private maps, agreements they broke almost immediately and the stamping down on regional languages and dialects.

Theah in comparison to the real world is quite retarded in this respect, if anything it should be the threat of the Inquisition(hollywood again) against those nobles who would deny Divine Right.

>>47544505
You're actually right, and you've convinced me to ever play 7th Sea. I'm done now, thanks.
You can go.

>>47544505
>if anything it should be the threat of the Inquisition(hollywood again
You act like this is some kind of a flaw. A fantasy adventure game is much more interesting with a Hollywood version of the Inquisition (which is really more inspired by the propaganda at the time than Hollywood, which just played off that propaganda because a lot of people believed it) than the real life 30-day notice Inquisition where people would commit heresy just to get taken from shitty regular prison to the much nicer Inquisition prisons where they could repent.

>>47544536
I play in Theah as much as I think the hollywood stuff is damaging towards widespread adoption of the game outside America, but that doesn't mean i'm going to ignore someone posting historical revisionism to justify setting assumptions.
If you were looking for a soapbox where only hugbox responses are allowed there are plenty of other sites for you to go.

>>47544603
I'm pretty sure that guy you're posting to is gone.
He said so here, >>47544536, see?

>>47544596
>You act like this is some kind of a flaw.
It is if you're actually hoping to play with Spaniards who do actually tend to get pissy about it and aren't an insiginificant part of the population here.
Although the Italian stuff is actually a lot worse because Venice vs Italy is really quite a touchy political subject that almost all of them seem to have an opinion on.

>>47544631
Sure, and maybe you're actually gargling on John Wick's oversized clit this very moment. That does seem to be the gist of your text so far.

Does anyone have a high quality version of the new map? I want to know how much the cities locations have changed, it'd be interesting to still have some river crossing Freiburg for example.

>>47544693
I'm confused. I thought Wick was a man?

>>47544770
That's a common mistake.

>>47544749
I do not, sorry.
They said on the Kickstarter that the map actually still isn't finished despite the borders being clean and stuff. I think they still plan to add some more cities on the map or have a more artsy version of it in the core book.

>>47544749
Frieburg DOES still have a river crossing through it though, according to this.
"Das Rotstrom" I think it says?
The Redstorm?

>>47544603
It doesn't really seem any worse in terms of "stereotypes" than Degenesis, and people get pissed off if you so much as wonder what's happening in America.
>Historical revisionism
Man, "Nationalism is a modern concept" is not historical revisionism, it's a sentiment so common it's mentioned on the damned Wikipedia page and in most history textbooks. He didn't say anything revisionist, he basically regurgitated one of the more popular ways of looking at Nationlism. Your view isn't even the prevailing way of looking at the subject.

>>47544657
It's not real, though. It's not even like Witch Hunters, where it takes place on Earth, but with an alternate history or a post-apocalypse like DeGenesis. This is a completely separate fantasy world that's like Earth's history. The names are changed, the geography is different, and the history is different. Having it be a theme park shouldn't be an issue. It's not even pretending to be historically accurate.

And like I said, having an evil Inquisition that roots out heresy with murder and torture works much better for a fantasy game.

>>47544749
>>47544871
I don't like the map. It so clearly looks like they couldn't fit the Signore Islands on and had to squish them up to keep them on the page.

>>47544904
>I don't like the map. It so clearly looks like they couldn't fit the Signore Islands on and had to squish them up to keep them on the page.

I like the new look Theah has (it's mildly less nonsensical then the old map at least), but I could REALLY use a global map of Theah so the bottom and far right don't look so weird, yeah.
Besides, I want my globe-sailing adventures already! I'll probably just make up my own stuff for the Americas and Africa for now by doing some research (we know the Mali Empire is around anyway) until the New World and Ifri book comes out.
Probably end up better then what ends up being published, hah.

>>47544904
>It doesn't really seem any worse in terms of "stereotypes"
It's quite bad and pushes a lot of buttons. Honestly the only thing they could do worse to sell it to the Iberian peninsula would be to include the Spanish independent movements like the Basques.
>Man, "Nationalism is a modern concept" is not historical revisionism
It very much is.
>it's a sentiment so common it's mentioned on the damned Wikipedia page
And it's about as true as the Illuminatus Trilogy is which is why actual history papers don't entertain the notion.
>he basically regurgitated one of the more popular ways of looking at Nationlism.
One of the pop-historical ways. It's not one supported by primary sources at all.
>Your view isn't even the prevailing way of looking at the subject.
It is in fact the prevailing academic one.

>>47544904
>It's not real, though.
It's specifically an analogue of Spain and a common hollywood-spread lie about Spanish history.
>The names are changed, the geography is different, and the history is different.
Yet it's sold as being 17th century Europe and the names aren't fooling anyone.
In any case both Venetismo and the "Castillian" Inquisition has been an issue when selling the game to players here.

>>47545014
>Honestly the only thing they could do worse to sell it to the Iberian peninsula would be to include the Spanish independent movements like the Basques.

Ten bucks they show up in the Nations of Theah then

>>47545073
>In any case both Venetismo and the "Castillian" Inquisition has been an issue when selling the game to players here.
Is that a real thing, or are you just saying that? I honestly don't see why anyone would get upset about it unless they're also upset by Dumas' Three Musketeers.

>>47545014
>It's quite bad and pushes a lot of buttons. Honestly the only thing they could do worse to sell it to the Iberian peninsula would be to include the Spanish independent movements like the Basques

Not him, but with stuff like that isn't there literally no version of this game at all that wouldn't trigger people?
Especially since that seems like a touchy subject in general?

>>47545125
It's a real thing. Venetismo is the Basque independence issue of Italy or the more heated version of Scottish independence.

To make an American metaphor, imagine the "South" seceding was actually highly viable except they're the wealthiest area in the country, have a political party whose main goal is secession, about 60% of their population want independence and many of them don't consider themselves part of the country at all.

>>47545245
I meant "I do not believe that many people are actually upset about the fact that this fantasy roleplaying game has an Inquisition in the Spanish country"

>>47545363
There's been at least two regular decent people here who've nixed the game entirely over it, but then those who leave their country always seem to be a bit more uptight about it.

>>47545411
I've always made it a point to leave all social and religious issues at the door with my group, and no I don't care how justified they feel they are.
It's cost me some good players, but it is very much not worth the hassle for me and the players I keep are level-headed and rational individuals who can roleplay a wide variety of things and don't let their personal junk get in the way of the game.
The table is a place of relaxation and taking a break from all the real life bullshit for an hour or three depending on how much time they have, not to just bring up the same day to day crap that you deal with already.

My sympathies for the lost players though.

>>47545014
this is probably inherent when you have an American developer, even with a pretty inclusive staff of writers, writing for mostly an American audience, where even the subject-matter-experts for, say, Spanish/Italian inspirations either don't know enough specifics to bring up the issues, or that the dev wouldn't be interested in changing that much just to accommodate a the feelings of a minority market share

>>47545541
>My sympathies for the lost players though.
I'm not about to kick out good players over a half-decent flawed game.
In that group we play other games.

>>47545541
I agree that getting upset at what is clearly not meant to represent accurate history is silly, but "leave all social and religious issues at the door" sounds like the kind of talk that only someone who's got the good fortune to be free of those issues can say. Many games are also built on religious and social issues within the game.

>>47545555
I really do not see there being a bunch of people upset that there's a Fake!Spanish Inquisition.

>>47545555
Pretty much. I always tend to get a bit annoyed myself with American takes on Europe but it's a bit worse when it reads like it's almost deliberately aggrevating specific peoples on historical and political issues. (not like I can claim that Wick isn't deliberately an asshole either)

>>47545657
>sounds like the kind of talk that only someone who's got the good fortune to be free of those issues can say.
And this rather sounds like the argument of forgefaggots who wanted to make the games about "the people around the table" and hated the notion of people coming to game and enjoy themselves.

>>47545577
That's sensible too.
>>47545657
>but "leave all social and religious issues at the door" sounds like the kind of talk that only someone who's got the good fortune to be free of those issues can say.

Fuck, are you ever wrong about that.
I've had to break up an actual fist-fight once between two guys arguing over...fuck, what was it again?
Something ridiculous, like "if black people of a certain tribe were truly mentally inferior/physically superior", I shit you not.
I just learned early on to cut that shit loose and let it go elsewhere. I give one warning and then they get to leave.
I've brought players back a few times once they've promised to behave and way mellowed down though; one of them is a regular in my group now am is far more clam and willing to be flexible.
I'm willing to be as sensitive about stuff that bugs you as possible, but if they still want to start some shit over because they've got a throbbing outrage addiction then they can just give somebody else the grief.

>>47545657
>I really do not see there being a bunch of people upset that there's a Fake!Spanish Inquisition.
That's because you've been sold the idea by Hollywood. See there's a real people called the Spanish and there was this thing called the Inquisition which was a part of their real history and it was lied about a whole lot by their historical enemies and now it's being touted as a historical truth by a good half of english-speaking cultures.
I won't bother with the parallells to other people Americans can relate to as humans rather than historical setpieces.

>>47545695
>not like I can claim that Wick isn't deliberately an asshole either
I'm the fella that played with him.
He's not deliberately an asshole, but he's one of those really nasty neckbearded types who genuinely doesn't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about anything he says or does.

It's rather funny to me because Wick physically looks SO much like the stereotypical Neckbeard asshole player/GM that I almost had a hard time grappling with the fact that he seemed to take as many measures as possible to actually fit the stereotype in place for him.
He even seemed proud of it.

>>47545657
>I really do not see there being a bunch of people upset that there's a Fake!Spanish Inquisition.
I'm American, I don't claim to know, I was mostly responding to the other people who seemed to either be Spanish or knew Spanish people who were bothered by this, and providing an explanation

>>47545846
i mean he self-inserted himself into L5R historical canon as a prophet, this shouldn't surprise anyone.

>>47545846
>He's not deliberately an asshole
Tell that to the D&D crowd.
>Oh yeah D&D is why I didn't have any friends as a kid, I followed this advice in the Tomb of Horrors by being a huge asshole, gloating over their deaths and lost them all. Nevermind that the ToH doesn't say anything of the sort and explicitly says it's a killer.
>I also had this awesome mic-drop moment where I walked out on Gary Gygax after he called me a "wannabe community theater actor" and no I totally don't remember what insulting thing I said to him prior to that but you should have been there it was totally awesome. Prease rike me narrativistshitters I hate D&D just rike you.
There are worse people than him out there (like half the Onyx Path employees and all the Evil Hat ones comes to mind) but he is one of the worst when it comes to manufactured outrage. You can basically time his outbursts with him needing PR for his new releases.

>>47545988
only half the onyx path employees? i can only think of 3 that aren't total narcissist assholes

>>47545988
See, as I saw it that doesn't make him an asshole because he doesn't really mean anything he ever says or does and probably doesn't care about any of it.
He just says shit that he thinks will give him attention and doesn't even remotely care one way or another about it because it's not actually relevant to him beyond getting as much attention as possible. He doesn't actively mean to hurt anyone because he doesn't care enough about groups or individuals to go out of his way to hate on them, he just knows what buttons to press to get attention and if the buttons he pressed were positive ones he'd press those too.
Admittedly really DOES seem like the type of guy who would call people "narrativist shitters" while trying to appeal to them though simply because he couldn't be bothered to do any research on what they were called beyond the first insulting term he heard for someone and assumed it was the correct one.

Kinda like a super racist grandpa that wants to move on but can't because he never bothered to understand how I guess.
>>47546198
Mike Pondsmith was that way too.
Something about Generation X-era game designers maybe? They all seem to become the exact same person over time.

>>47545717
I would have expected to be called an SJW for that, but not a forgefag. I have no idea what that has to do with anything. I just meant that it sounds like the kind of thing straight people say when someone wants to be a gay character. "Stop bringing your politics into this game!"

>>47545771
So? This is literally a theme park fantasy setting. Do you get mad that there's an Inquisitor class in Pathfinder?

>>47545988
>>47546198
When people get like this, I can only assume the developer personally molested them. Even the hate for Matt MacFarland and David Hill is overblown, and I've been fucked over in a MUSH by Hill's cliqueishness.

>>47541959
>multinational no-murderhobos

Yeah but this is the classic problem of just about all rpgs. You're either all working for a mysterious cloaked figure or you just so happen to be in the same tavern when said figure is looking for help.

I like the way the preview adventure did it where they tied everyone together organically, one is the prince, the other his bodyguard, there's the captain who's a friend and he's their ride, then the fate witch who's the prince's bride to be and her duelist brother there to protect her. That's a Samartian, two Vodacces and two Castillians all together for a swashbuckling adventure.

>>47546273
>When people get like this, I can only assume the developer personally molested them
Whereas I just discount you as a SJW who don't mind to see games ruined by your personal pet politics.
It doesn't hurt that your forum-like posting style of numerous quotes, spaces between each section, and insertion of SJW politics inbetween is highly similar to the one humongous fag who always defends Beast in the wodg threads.

>>47546273
john morke molested my eyes with terrible writing, if that counts

>>47546273
>>47546413
just fuck already

>>47546346
Eh. I think in a typical fantasy setting it's pretty easy to get everyone in the same boat, simply because the default is lots of moving around and "adventurer" is practically a profession. I usually try for everyone having known each other and to use the Fate method of collaborative character creation (keyword: Try. Even doing Werewolf: The Forsaken 2e, which is all about the Pack as a unit, I could barely get my players to talk to each other).

Like, "you all live in Montaigne, but you're from all over" or whatever.

>>47546413
Haha, that's because I am that fag, you whiny shit!
If you don't like SJW games and think the games are ruined, don't go into the /wodg/ in the first place!
Never thought of this as "forum style", though. I learned it from 4chan.

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>>47546913
Bump

>>47544189

It's not like any of those are real people, though.

>>47546413
>SJW SJW SJW

I'm not the guy you're having a slap-fight with but you sound like the most insufferable shitbag to play with.

>>47544293

That's not what the page says, though. It outright says that unless it's an act of active self-defense (in "the heat of the moment"), killing is an Evil act, and makes you a Villain.

D'artagnan, Aramis, Athos, Inego Montoya, and Cyrano de Motherfucking Bergerac are all Villains according to Wick's rules. I'll grant that this may change in the actual release, but as of right now he's written his game in such a way that some of the greatest swashbuckling heroes of history cannot function as heroes in his nominally "swashbuckling" game.

That is outright not acceptable. I sincerely hope the rule is changed.

>>47546913
I find that while most PCs love their countries everyone has their own thing to do. I am playing a Castillian. He'd even go to Montaigne with the party though he probably wouldn't shut up about how shitty the place is just out of national pride. At the moment we're bodyguarding a young woman who is probably a fate witch and looking for a kidnapped Castillian scientist.

So you know, you do what you do I guess.

>>47548854
>Avalon
REMOVE SIDHE

>>47546913
>Haha, that's because I am that fag
You think that's something to be proud of?
Being the most autistic retard in a GENERAL about WHITE WOLF games of all things?

>>47549172
i'm running a 7th sea game (started as 1e, figured i'd switch to 2e when the backer pdf came out in like October, and now it's out kek)

yeah the "heroes don't kill" moralizing and corruption points went out the window within the first 15 minutes of talking to my players about how we will port their characters. that shit is ridiculous.

>>47549441
>Because a lot of people on here do spacing and quotations like that.
Nah son. I've been here for enough years to recognize how unusual your shitty posting style is. You could probably be replicated algorithmically at this point. One post would look something like this:
>>numbers
>citation
linebreak
Random text vaguely related to current thread
linebreak
>>numbers
>citation
more linebreak
Political opinion that is then supported by text written in the same style a couple of posts afterwards
linebreak
>>numbers
>citation
linebreak
passive aggressive pontification about people not agreeing with your politics
you would have a linebreak here if you could

>>47549552
>some kinda obsessive autistic flirty bullshit
yo can you guys just swap kik and make out over there, there's srs gamin bsns to discuss here

>>47549384
How have you dealt with the magic porting?

>>47549605
None of my players took magic to start. If you're familiar with 1e, there's barely anything left over if you take both sorcery and a swordsman school, and they all wanted to be swordsmen. well one guy really wanted dracheneisen, but he dropped if after he saw how few other points he had to play with (this was even after me giving extra build points for completed 20 questions)

with the revamp, 2 of the players have picked up their national sorceries without compromising their pre-existing competencies, and both of them keeping dueling schools

so on that front I'm pleased, I love the sorcery backstory and plot opportunities, and the players got to take something they just didn't feel like they could originally afford. i think the implementation was overall a positive change and less bloated. and 1e sorcery at the basic level just felt exceptionally weak. it certainly feels more robust now (though certain things with Sorte got more concrete. i liked the 1e strands system. and i don't like the change to dracheneisen at all, i was considering a revamp, but since nobody is taking it now i may not bother except for an NPC antagonist)

>>47550237
I do them. It isn't a forum breakline, I just find the space makes it a bit easier on the eyes.

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>>47550003
Well that's the fun of using a backer preview. Someone on reddit whipped this up to hold us over until a proper one comes out.

What the fuck is happening in this thread please just report all of them so they can cool off in the time out corner

>>47550674
>What the fuck is happening in this thread
a lot of edging without any money shots

>>47550674
Mostly spillover from WoD shit and people who hate John Wick.

>>47550674
I saw that on reddit as well. It's doable. I just find it funny that the creators forgot to include it in their preview.

>>47550919
It's a game made by a barely interactive railroader.
I don't expect anyone had a use for character sheets at his table.

>>47549172

Well, Batman (who doesn't kill) is a villain too, at least according to villain motivation examples.

>>47533707
There's nothing INHERENTLY immoral about murder or torture and provided the targets deserve it, inflicting it on them should not be considered evil.

>>47549172
It takes four acts of evil to be a villain, and "murdering an entire carriage of people" is a single act of evil. More than that, Inigo did become The Dread Pirate Roberts, effectively becoming an NPC, at the end. You are not prohibited from being one of the great swashbuckling heroes of history. You are, however, prohibited from being a wanton murderer. And really it's more discouraged.

>>47549216
Like I said, my problem is mostly that the default seems to assume a lack of travel. In the section on Eisen Heroes for instance it didn't even talk about how a lot of soldiers have gone to Avalon. I can think of a lot of reasons, but I wish the book would have given me some.

>>47550674
Hallelujah! I hate having to use scratch paper. I like having real character sheets, even if this is a one shot.
>Membeship
Well, close enough. What's with the "refresh 15 bomb"?

>>47551166
Batman is a sociopath who enjoys punching people. Of course he's a villain.

>>47549552
>>47549366
1) He's not me; 2) that's not my posting style, this is.

Guys, this is 1ed again. The book in this state is a fucking mess. Rules needed sooner are explained later, buried in text. Like you get the Wounds explained in two places, verbatim. Why? Because fuck you, that's why. And furthermore, the most important thing "how many wounds does a hero get?" is buried in that text and only in one of those repeats! Why? Because fuck you, that's why.
Thank god we don't have two books, because I hated shuffling between them while playing 1ed. Still, Wick learned nothing or this some "too many cooks" shit, since they are a lot of contradictions in the book also.

Goddamn, what a shit thread.
Do mods even fucking do their goddamn jobs anymore? At least ONE person on here is deliberately trolling and nobody's bothering to report it, or if they are the mods are just going "naw, this looks good" even though it's clearly some god awful /pol/ conversation moved onto 4chan?

>>47552740
So far when it comes to actual play my group is enjoying it with some slight rules modifications.
However, I will agree on you that Wick has no idea how to properly put together a rulebook.

I wasn't ACTUALLY expecting a 100% perfect product for my group with this, I was expecting a system I'd have to modify the fuck out of before it was playable in my house. Right now my house rules are mostly limited to some fluff (the killing shit) and some minor rules changes here and there that basically can be summed up with "ignore what is written here and use everything else" in certain areas of the book, so actually I'm pleasantly surprised.
It's probably just because it's very rules-light so it's easy for my group to fix as it is.

>>47553334
>I wasn't ACTUALLY expecting a 100% perfect product for my group with this, I was expecting a system I'd have to modify the fuck out of before it was playable in my house.

I understand the hell out of that. Unfortunately, some very good friends of mine (they were some of our cast in the 7th Sea Kickstarter film we did) are running games for the 7th Sea Living Campaign at GenCon, and they'd like us to come play games with them.

Which is great, except the Living Campaign is essentially running straight "rules-as-written" for this year's GenCon (may change in the future, not now). Which means that if I want to share a table with them, my wife and I have to deal with the stuff Wick actually *wrote*, irrespective of how stupid or nonsensical it may be.

>>47553445
Ouch. My sympathies.
Also, I know you, you spoke of doing the video thing and your wife in a much earlier and less shit-filled 7th Sea 2nd Ed thread.
I try to avoid stuff like that because I mostly get into gaming to chill with my friends and crack some dice together, so doing it with total strangers and having to deal with imperfect systems (pretty much no system has ever really been perfect for me either) just seems like a double hassle.

You have more patience and fortitude then I.

>>47553294
>nobody's bothering to report it
I did. They actually cleaned up some of the thread, but had to sleep, I guess

>>47553334
I feel like rules for killing people is not really the kind of thing most groups should ever even need to bother with...

>>47553445
How can this even have a Living Campaign? It doesn't feel like there's much in the way of actual character progression, and half the rules are "make something up". Like, most of the magic and Advantages are straight out of a rules lite game like Apocalypse World. "You get to make something happen". They even use a Benny Bribing System that I've seen in rules lite games for using your Hero Point instant succeed moves on other players.

Also come on, are you really telling me that you can't suck it up for GenCon?
Also, Kickstarter film?

>>47553478
I have never really enjoyed playing with strangers, and unless I hang out and shoot the shit with a group I can't play with them. If I don't know you, you better be willing to hang around and talk shop and socialize with me or I won't invite you to play.

>>47553512
>They actually cleaned up some of the thread, but had to sleep, I guess
WEAKNESS!! But I guess I get that. Sorta.
Also, respond to the troll less and he'll go away of course, but nobody ever takes THAT advice.
>I feel like rules for killing people is not really the kind of thing most groups should ever even need to bother with...
I literally just ignored it. Never even brought it up. Only one of my players even knows about it.
>Also, Kickstarter film?
There were some folks who did that to get into it and show support and stuff.
Despite all of it's many, MANY flaws, head developer included, 7th Sea had quite a following back in the day.
>If I don't know you, you better be willing to hang around and talk shop and socialize with me or I won't invite you to play.
This is more or less my unspoken rule too.
Gaming is really just an extension of hanging out, and if the person is not really the type of person I'd enjoy actually hanging out with then I likely won't enjoy gaming with them either, with one notable exception in my life.

>>47553512
>How can this even have a Living Campaign?

It's a 1e game that's been going on for some time (guildofsanmarcos.net/) and is switching over to 2e rules just prior to the con. The PC I play is an Eisen (I showed up to the ol 7th Sea LARP that Dana used to run in my full harness, he wrote me an Eisen PC and backstory on the spot, and we transferred the PC over to the San Marcos game), and his backstory is entirely motivated around tracking down and killing his five cousins who murdered my PC's parents and stole their ancestral Dracheneisen sword and armor set.

>In my defense, again, this PC was written by a GM for the 7th Sea Larp; you're given a PC packed with a background pre-written. I didn't write it.

I've played that PC for...about 7 GenCons now? Since they're running RAW, yes, they have confirmed that if my PC fulfills his questline, he'd become a Villain for killing all 5 cousins.


>>47553512
>Also, Kickstarter film?

One of the things for the kickstarter campaign was "film you and a friend having a swordfight". Since if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing, we produced a 10-minute short action film from scratch in 5 days total (pre-production, shooting, video and audio post-production), with people (aside from the Eisen leader and the pirate queen) who were NOT trained fighters, and with no film crew aside from the cast. Wick unlocked an entire reward tier in exchange for it.

Google "Youtube Unlucky Seven". Unfortunately, the cut that's up there isn't actually the final cut; there was a shot of the McGuffin that establishes where *specifically* it is during the film that was left out of this cut, but time on the Kickstarter ran out before it could be corrected.

>>47553563
>I literally just ignored it. Never even brought it up.
Well I mean, that's more or less something the book says. "No one ever dies, they just become Helpless, but that's really left up to the Gamemaster". It's like Mutants and Masterminds.

>if the person is not really the type of person I'd enjoy actually hanging out with then I likely won't enjoy gaming with them either
More than that, I've learned that if someone isn't someone I can get along with, they'll generally make things difficult for the group by arguing with me and causing problems, like that M&M game where someone wanted to argue they could instantly kill someone by using a high Will Save move to look into their skull and shoot their brain stem. And then I have to deal with their character getting retconned. Oh, plus, people who I'm not friends with have a tendency to join, go through character creation (and maybe start causing animosity) and get a session or two in, then never show up again.

I'm actually inviting someone I have a tumultuous relationship with into a game. We tend to be okay with each other, but sometimes he randomly hates me. I never tend to hate him, other than the fact that he randomly hates me sometimes. So that'll be interesting...
Hopefully in that case, gaming will be a fence mender.

>>47553649
>Google "Youtube Unlucky Seven".

Sorry. I forgot we messed with some search settings. Go to Youtube and search for "Unlucky Seven - 7th Sea Kickstarter Fan Film". It should be the obvious result.

>>47553656
>I'm actually inviting someone I have a tumultuous relationship with into a game. We tend to be okay with each other, but sometimes he randomly hates me. I never tend to hate him, other than the fact that he randomly hates me sometimes. So that'll be interesting...

Like to live dangerously huh?

Also
>instantly kill someone by using a high Will Save move to look into their skull and shoot their brain stem.
People like that probably shouldn't be playing M&M at all. It's not really the kind of system designed to accommodate that kind of behavior where your objective is to make the most powerful guy who kills all the dudes.

>>47553649
>Google "Youtube Unlucky Seven".
You certainly look like the type of people who own your own pirate costumes, that's for sure.
So you're an extra special backer for doing all that work?

>Since they're running RAW, yes, they have confirmed that if my PC fulfills his questline, he'd become a Villain for killing all 5 cousin
Honestly I don't really see a problem with this. It feels like a fitting end.
>"You know, it's very strange. I've been in the revenge business so long now that it's over I do not know what to do with the rest of my life."
>"Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts."
Then again, a bittersweet walking off into the sunset never to be seen again is the kind of ending I like.

Or you could just repent, since by RAW that removes your Corruption.

>>47553697
Worse than that, this was meant to be a low powered game inspired by Heroes, and the characters were at least expected to not be serial killers. She wanted to kill people by opening portals in front of subway trains and having it run over her opponents.

>>47553797
>So you're an extra special backer for doing all that work?

No. We happened to have a weekend free, own our own theatrical combat choreography company (which is extremely different than a FILM combat choreography company), and liked 7th Sea.

The only thing this project netted us was a half-dozen job offers from some other live theatre companies who ran across it (a *lot* of actors do roleplaying games), and the experience of actually turning out something moderately watchable in 1/20th the time something like that SHOULD take. It was just a fun thing to go do, and we could afford the $200 out of our company marketing budget to finance it.

As for the rest of it, you're going to unconditionally support what Wick wrote no matter what anyone else says or feels, so if you don't mind, I'm not going to continue that side of the discussion any longer.

>>47553797
>Worse than that, this was meant to be a low powered game inspired by Heroes, and the characters were at least expected to not be serial killers. She wanted to kill people by opening portals in front of subway trains and having it run over her opponents.

Every M&M group has his Action Man I guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2AKtpcRwYE

>>47553885
>a *lot* of actors do roleplaying games
One of my friends was confused about that.
I explained it to her thusly;
>"A person who's professional description is described as 'pretending to be someone else' having a hobby explicitly involving pretending to be someone else is somehow surprising to you?"

>>47534078
Grandmother, mind, that you explicitly spent backround points on as a roleplay thing.

>>47553885
>As for the rest of it, you're going to unconditionally support what Wick wrote no matter what anyone else says or feels
Not really. I have no strong feelings one way or the other, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. I mean, in terms of accusing me of "worshiping John Wick's oversized clit", I've already pointed out several things about the game I don't like. I just feel like the complaints about murder and becoming a Villain (in a narrative rules lite system no less) are overblown. I've seen similar systems five or six times in other games.

>>47553927
There are a lot of demographics that roleplay for reasons that are obvious in hindsight.
Queer people do it because you get to be who you want to be. Unlikeable losers do it for the same reason. Writers roleplay because this shit is basically writing (especially when you're doing it through text). I actually think every modern fantasy author has played D&D or some derivative in their lives. And depending on who you ask, Jim Butcher either played or ripped off oWoD.

>>47545972
Seriously? This is hilarious! Got citations on that? References at least?

>>47549172
>That's not what the page says, though. It outright says that unless it's an act of active self-defense (in "the heat of the moment"), killing is an Evil act, and makes you a Villain.
So... literally what people have been saying, don't kill someone who's not a threat to you at the time. If you're in a fight for your life, killing your opponent would be self-defense. If you stab an opponent that's not trying to hurt you at the time, that's murder.

I really don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

>>47554228
>I really don't get what's so hard to understand about this.
People don't like having consequences for their actions and think "my character wouldn't feel bad about this" is a reasonable justification for doing shitty things.

>>47554222
Literally how you pronounce his name in Japanese.
http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Uikku

>>47519348
>I need the skinny on the game's setting
The game's called 7th Sea work it out, genius.

>there's a trigger warning
Can't quite tell if you're joking or not.

>That last bit is in italics.
No it's not.

>It really is pretty disgusting.
You do know that this is /tg/ (and for that matter 4chan) most of the 16 year olds on here masturbate over 40k fanfics I think you're safe with your boring old brain eating.

>>47554469
It's called 7th Sea, but the actual book seems unconcerned with what's going on in the seas, and the 7th one is a footnote.

It's a content warning, which is what trigger warnings are.

It was italicized in the actual book. Obviously 4chan's formatting doesn't allow it to be italicized here, hence why I mentioned that it was italicized in the book.

Judging from how grossed out people in the /erpg/ and /wst/ got whenever snuff came up, I feel like you're overestimating things. Plus, according to another thread, when a board demographic survey came up, /tg/ was actually one of the older boards. Eating parts of rotten corpses is also generally pretty gross, even if you're an edgy 16 year old

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>>47543684
>strictly heterosexual

Poles OP, nerf now

(the very fact someone says that in this universe is a testimony to the depths of unrealism we're dealing with)

>>47556041
Didn't Uikku-san give Poles shapeshiting magic of Ussura for some reason?

>>47556089
No, but Polish villain sorcerers can blow cities up. Really.

>>47556089
>>47556195
They get animoo spotlight hog magic that involves a deal with a cool demonic being who gives them stupidly overpowered abilities. And you can bet your ass they're Wick's favorite because it's half built on the GM being a smug dick to you through your all-knowing, literal genie-ing, "omnipotent but won't do anything so he can grin all the more smugly when his Just As Plan goes off" demon.

>>47556195
And since the price involves roleplaying, you just know Johnny boy's gonna just waive it as "something that happened behind the stages, muhahaha!" for his villains, ensuring that the players never get to use anything powerful while he's still able to point at the book and defend himself by saying they have the ability in theory.

>>47556241
>>47557007
While you are indeed correct (Wick's own comments actually confirm as much it seems) the whole "making a deal with the devil for powers and trying to trick him out of winning" thing actually stems from a fairly famous Polish folk story called Twordowski I believe. Notably however the guy gets screwed over at the end of that tale, which seems in fact something that would heighten it's appeal to Wick I'm thinking.

Oh, if you've played the third Witcher game the Hearts of Stone expansion takes a lot of hints from that folk story.

>>47557309
"A guy makes a deal with the devil" is a story that exists in a dozen varieties in basically every culture that's ever existed (switch devil for the local magical trickster figure for cultures that have no devil). He probably had no other idea what to give the Poles.

>>47557309
>>47557499
Also, in the fairytale the dude never gets "blow cities up, summon cthulhu, rewrite reality" powers. Most he does is summon a ghost and tell the future with astrology.

>>47557499
True that, but this is a particularly well-known one and actually isn't just a general folk story who's details change between teller and teller. The story is the Devil grants a specific limited number of wishes and once they run out he take's the guy's soul, and that sidebar talks about how there's a limited number of major bargains you can make before something real bad happens.
I'm not saying this is balls-deep obscure Polish folklore or anything; it's like visiting America and hearing about Pecos Bill or Davy Crockett or Paul Bunyan for the first time, you aren't exactly tapping particularly obscure folklore at all and you just might not have heard that shit in your native country.

This is particularly fitting to Wick because he mentions having visited Poland, enjoyed it, and plans to visit it again later and thus it's the kind of thing you could pick up by passing through and getting the briefest and most superficial knowledge of Polish folklore. Since the only kind of knowledge Wick has at ALL seems to be brief and superficial in nature this seems pretty straightforward to me:

>>47557579
True that, definitely OP. Requires a GM to lock down and house rule or just say "no" on a lot of shit, rules be damned.
I love the irony of Wick's games in that to be successfully run they require a GM and player who is specifically NOT like John Wick himself to run smoothly, at which point they generally work alright once you smooth out some kinks.

>>47552740
my impression was that this was a backer pdf version and that there would be more editing. is that wrong?

>>47558036
It was put out solely for crowd-sourced proofreading for typos because they needed to send it in to be printed within the next 3 days or so, so that they could get publishing done by GenCon.

While possible that they might make adjustments, you should expect everything in the preview, particularly rule-wise, to be how it will be in the final version.

>>47554314
yeah this is about the long and short of it. Wick was involved in L5R 1e and Uikku (say it out loud) was this prophet who predicted the Second Day of Thunder (basically the second time in humanocentric history when the Realm of Evil took form and the champions of the mortal realm had to seal it away again...aka a big metaplot climax point)

>>47558123
Huh! I always pronounced it Oo-ee-koo in my game!

>>47558170
if you say that with a heavy and stereotypical japanese accent, it definitely sounds like "Wick" if that was spoken with a heavy, stereotypical japanese accent

>>47558123
I honestly don't really see anything wrong with that. The worst thing people have really said about Wick here is "he's really shitty at running his own games".

>>47558232
it's just top wankery really, kinda like how the Magnus is *totally* john morke's beloved-and-respected-by-all-genius-power-fantasy self insert into exalted, no matter how much he denies it (and he constantly denies it, even though its fuckin obvious). I'm not saying it's morally inexcusable, it's just exceptionally masturbatory.

I knew the Polish sorcery had to be Vodkamancy. Wick has doomed us all.

>>47558263
Why so? I mean, Stephen King shows up in his books and no one cares, and Jack Kirby and Stan Lee are God in the Marvel Universe, though I don't think that was their choice.
I've self-inserted wannabe stuff into my games before and no one cared. It's the one benefit of being a GM.

>>47552740
>Still, Wick learned nothing or this some "too many cooks" shit,

I think its both. I know one of the guys on the project, Wick has a lot of dictates and also the fluff people and mechanics people aren't the same usually so they have to collaborate to hash some stuff out and you can probably see forgotten errors in the text.

>>47553294
>Mods
>on /tg/
Don't we just have like one lonely janitor?

>>47558687
>also the fluff people and mechanics people aren't the same usually so they have to collaborate

That explains some of the Backround stuff.
Like the Castillan Destrecero; what that even means for Castille isn't brought up anywhere in the book (I wanna say "steel student", but that still sounds very wrong to me) and what kind of place they hold in Castillan culture is equally unknown right now.

>>47559017
I actually picked that and just am playing it up as a scholarly guy who has a bit of an obsession with swords in their cultural niche.

Kind of like a Kakita from L5R but a bit lighter than a full on Kenshinzen.

>>47559302
As far as I can tell that's what it is.
The name seems to invoke La Verdadera Destreza, which despite being a multi-purpose combat system actually taught a lot of mathematics and geometry and other humanities as part of learning it because a gentleman needed to learn to be a well-rounded fellow as well as just to fight.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destreza
Rather then a "soul of the sword" thing it's more like "any idiot can teach you the sword, but we will EDUCATE you the sword".

>>47559687
>which despite being a multi-purpose combat system actually taught a lot of mathematics and geometry and other humanities as part of learning it because a gentleman needed to learn to be a well-rounded fellow as well as just to fight.

That actually fits the skill list on the background. He's a scholar, gentleman, architect, and enjoys stabbing people in duels. I guess my enjoying L5R happened to let me stumble ass backwards into something approximating what it is meant to be. I just wanted free Fencer and the skills.

>>47519348
So I just noticed this little change and I know its not anything major....but why the hell did they change the Donovan sword school fluff?

Why the heck have they changed the smallsword and buckler into a single longsword style?!

Hell the smallsword as a precursor to the rapier didn't make sense before but atleast it made the Avalonian sword style unique.

You would think with how little distinction the styles have now they would have atleast kept the styles fluffed to be different.

>>47562389
Sorry, all British are medieval knights. Obviously, they would fight with D&D longswords in the 17th century.

>>47562406
.....but then they should Definitely have shields of some sort

a double edged blade and a small round shield would make sense as an evolution and fusion with the old Gladius and Shield style

it even carriers over well to the Marches and Inismore just replace a buckler with a targe and the sword with a baskethilt claymore for the marches