How do you make Science Fantasy good?
I love the idea of the genre but despite by best efforts to create an interesting setting im never satisfied with the result.
>>47512759
Bump
>>47512759
I don't know, but Numenera isn't it.
>>47512759
Meh I just started off with typical historic fantasy and allowed the timeline to slowly drag its ass into the space age.
The end result was actually quite amusing if taking a lot longer because of magical brain drain but it does happen eventually.
>>47512759
1. Go read Edgar Rice Burroughs.
2. Remove all sense of dignity, seriousness, and desire to do anything but have fun.
3. Find Spelljammer and steal everything.
>>47512759
You don't.
Destiny almost got it, but there's not enough exploration of technology to be sci-fi, or enough exploration of the world to really be fantasy, and that's the only reason it works. It relies on the imagery of the genres and none of the substance, which is the only way you can mix two things of such size and specificity.
>>47512759
>Science Fantasy
Let's see...
Flash Gordon, Star Wars, Space Dandy, old Battlestar, Space Ghost, and to some extent, Futurama. If you reaaaaaaaaaly stretch it then Rick & Morty can qualify.
So what's your problem, really?
>>47515681
Star Wars is classic Science Fantasy. First example I think of when I hear the phrase.
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/lqMxOMZ.jpg "latest[1].jpg")
Marvel Cosmic.
>>47512759
>Read Jack Vance's Tales of the dying earth.
>Steal everything.
It's what I'm doing and it's working out great.
Check out a comic called 'the Metabarons'.
>>47516609
I have the full collection of that sitting on my shelf that I need to read.
>>47516609
Also, everything else by Moebius. Eurocomics in general thrive on science-fantasy. Plenty of newer sci-fi comics from the US also fit the bill.
>>47512759
>>47521944
>Also, everything else by Moebius.
Metabarons isn't by Moebius. Its Jorodowsky and Gimenez. The names are right there in the picture.
You're thinking of the Incal, which is by Jorodowsky and Moebius.
>>47522002
>Jorodowsky
Jodorowsky dammit. Don't ask me why I always misspell his name.
Base it on this
>>47522002
The Metabaron originally appeared in Incal in the 80s, they exist in the same science-fantasy universe, which is what this thread is about. Both are mandatory readings anyway.
>>47512759
Im thinking of putting together a sort of sword (beam rifle) and planet setting based off Mars from John Carter, pirates of Dark Water and some of the stuff from the Pathfinder distant worlds supplement - though not all that detailed and in my opinion really clonky for the Pathfinder setting, it has some pretty neat stuff in it.
But one problem I've run into is how to have more than one planet at you can travel to, without going full Spelljammer by having magical sppace ships. Any ideas /tg/?
>>47522487
Why not have magical spaceships? You could also use portals, mind-swapping, dream travel, etc. Even better, why not flesh out the one planet you have to encompass a wide variety of environments? You don't need to go to a jungle planet just to have an adventure in a jungle.
>>47522612
You raise a good point - perhaps it is my disdain of kitchen sink settings, that makes me want to have a couple of different planets in order to have a variety of races coming from different wolrds instead of just from the same.
>>47512759
I've been tempted to do a "modern" planescape - to be entirely honest, the idea of "Philosophers with clubs" wandering around a modern setting amuses me.
Also:
>PCs are done with a quest in a small outlands town
>they hop on a greyhound to the nearest town with a portal to Sigil in it
>too late they realise the bus driver has little wings on her back
>"oh shit, it's a succubus-driver!"
>they try to leave
>the doors snap shut and won't budge
>"Where are you taking us?" the PCs will ask the succubus-driver
>and she'll reply;
>"CHAOS!"
>and the bus'll planeshift into limbo, landing on the liquid highway and immediately hitting a slaadi, who crashes through the windscreen like an elk and kills the succubus-driver.
>>47522643
I like both approaches, but I like a kitchen-sink for science-fantasy. Unless you set it in outer-space by default, in which case it's fine to visit a bunch of wildly different planets.
>>47522645
Sounds good, kind of like a high-magic Shadowrun with all the grit and edginess removed in favor of fun and wacky adventure.
>>47514036
Seconded. The game system is 10/10, but the setting is boring as fuck.
>>47516030
Hell yeah, from Annihilation to Thanos Imperative is what I consider the best, or atleast my favourite, science fiction story/setting.
Shame what the movie did to it.
Just play Fading Suns.
With a decent system.
>>47512759
Chronicles of Amber.
>>47512759
The most important thing is the sense of wonder and mystery.
>>47522857
>The game system is 10/10
>Numenera
Top kek.
>>47522487
Wormholes. But,like, just there in the middle of the road. Like you wanna go to mars so you go to the imperial city, to wich all the roads lead, and take the road to mars. It's a fairly regular roman style road,full of travellers and merchants on foot, horse and gravchariot. It ends in a huge arch: when you're near enought to see the other side of the arch you see it's completelly different from this side: you recognize the thin trees of terraformed mars, the tall needle like structures typical of martian architecture etc. You walk through the arch and you're on mars.
The Emperor banned regular space travel long ago, making it His true divine prerogative. Everyone else has to walk.
>>47512759
In general?
1) Go big or go home: The reason you're choosing science fantasy is exoticism, the lure of the bizarre and creative. You can fit things in science fantasy that would be fucking ridiculous everywhere else. So do it.
2) Be consistent: Rule 1 still doesn't mean you get to build a kitchen sink with no coherence when everything goes: choose themes and aestethics that fit, disregard things that don't. He Man and Star Wars are both science fantasy but if you put Skeletor in your SW fanfic he'll stand out like a sore thumb.
3) Sci Fi channels Hope. Fantasy channels Nostalgia. Science Fantasy can do both. The New Sun was hopefull in end. The Dying Sun is nostalgic. Dune is both. Think about it and how this will apply to your setting.
4) You can have magic and technology, Technology as magic and magic as technology. But please choose one, or the setting will rapidly stop making sense.
The Vampire Hunter D novels did it well.
>>47523071
And it's definitely space fantasy. Vast cosmic gods, individual warriors who can wreck fleets of space ships with quasi-magical powers, an unusual number of swords, a guy who uses something called "quantum magic"... Honestly I'd love to see more space fantasy like it, and I hope the GotG movies eventually go down that path as far as they can.
>>47512759
In my setting, it's fantasy tropes expressed through hyper advanced technology, set on a single planet. Everything that would normally be considered magic in a fantasy setting is now just some sort of technology.
lots of aesthetics gestures, but with at least enough consistency to preserve plausibility.
Scale helps a lot, but for every planetary romance there's another new-weird setting in a single city. M John Harrison, for ex, did both Viriconium and Nova Swing.
>>47524462
Cont.
5) Consider a way to make a great variability of characters appropriate to the setting: our world has scientists, new agers, martial artists and hundreds other possible character choices. So should yours one way or another.
6) make sure your setting is playable: when i write i add something if and only if i can think of at least three plothooks related to that something on the top of my head. This will keep your setting clean.
7) Cultures: taking inspiration from existÃng ones is fine. Not!Persians, Not!Venetians etc STINK.
8) In complete contraddiction with 7, every setting is funnier if you use the Palinka Effect.
>>47524154
But why should we only play Pathfinder, anon? Why won't you even crack the cover on other games?
I know you hate reading, and were taught pf so didn't have to read, but someone could teach you something new too.
>>47524785
Do you have any suggestions for stuff that does this? I love it but can't find very much of it, one of the only examples I can think of off the top of my head is Fallout: New Vegas
While we are on topic, what systems would you guys use to run something like this? With so much variety, I feel something simple, narrative-based should be mandatory, otherwise I have no idea how you'd go about balancing space knights vs cyber ninjas vs sentient dust clouds without it becoming a clusterfuck.
>>47524978Book of the New Sun.
>>47524995
Cypher System is probably best if you want simple.
>>47512759
Shadowrun
>>47524995
I would use something simple and customizable like the nwod system with some hacks. It technically sucks balls but it's core mechanics make statistical sense, it has a truckload of material you can use as a base to customize it and it's easy as fuck to teach. All in all my go-to when i don't know wtf to use. Remember to take Armory, Armory Reloaded, Mirrors and relative add-ons, and Dudes of Legend.
>>47524934
>Numenera fan so triggered by anyone saying his system is shit that he can only screech about 3.pf
Bitch I play GURPS.
But in all seriousness, it's not a very good system. It functions, sure, but it's filled with so many balance issues, design flaws, and straight up bizarre decisions that it's just not worth it. You could be playing any of a number of other systems and get a better experience.
>>47525119
>Stooping to pretending to play a Steve Jackson game.
Will you memers quit shitting up the thread?
>It functions, sure, but it's filled with so many balance issues, design flaws, and straight up bizarre decisions that it's just not worth it.
Do you have even a single shred of evidence to back that statement up?
>>47525135
>No argument
>URR STOP SHITPOSTING!
You first fag. Just admit that Numenera is bad. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it, so just say so.
>>47525135
>>47525026
>>47524934
How much does Monte pay you for the Love of God. Nobody mentioned PF before you did, nobody gives a shit about Cypher System and it's formalizing caster supremacy in Science Fantasy and GURPS is still amongst the most played systems, with a truckload of supplements and none of the financial problems WW, Onix Path and Paizo suffered or are suffering.
Litteraly calm down and discuta Pro and Cons of Numenera like a civil person if you like it so much.
>>47525154
Yes, /tg/ dissected the system extensively when it came out. I'm dure we can find something.
>>47525213
Okay, then please do?
>>47525238
Calm down i'm searching.
>>47525263
I'm very calm, it's fun to debate people on things they've never read and have zero knowledge of, based on things they heard on 4chan.
You can just go the Dune way and use a setting inspired by ancient civilizations and fantasy tropes, but set in a sci-fi setting
>>47525238
Well for starters, your pools also act as your HP. So you run into the conundrum of either taking a hit and losing health, or doing a cool thing and, effectively, losing health.
>>47525316
Yeah, you have to make a decision on which is optimal.
Your decision will probably vary sbase on your chosen skills, what you are trying to avoid, and your threshold of what kind of success chance you want to try for.
>>47525278
You want MY opinion on the Cypher System? Fine.
1- D20 and rerolls with resource managent makes for a shitty statistical side of the game in witch characters will routinelly fail at things everyone should be able to do OR succeed at extremely improbable things. This is just something i can tell you from the basic dice mechanic, due to having 5% intervalls and rerolls. This doesn't make the game automatically shitty by itself but worsens the normal randomness of the RPG experience, more than even single dice+bonus.
>>But it's the GM's job to decide when you roll!
Yeah i hear this argument every time with narrative systems. Doesn't work: nobody is ever satisfied by the results.
2- Classes in Numenera make no sense in context. You have D&D Wizard, Factotum and Fighter in The Future! The fighter only knows fighting, the middleman sucks, Nanos reign. It would have been very easy to just divide classes according to supertechnology rather than according to D&D's concept of class, but you know Monte: The Jocks Must Allways Suck.
3- Crafting Rules suck. But this is forgivable: every crafting ruleset since AD&D sucked one way or the other.
4- I actually like the class, profession mode divide but in the end it doesn't amount to much.
5- Resource Managenent must allways be carefully balanced in rpgs. In this case you have some characters spamming nanites like it's Christmas and others living in fear of getting buttraped because they're out of juice.
>>47525502
The 5% is intuitive, and because it converts the d20 roll into levels, you don't run into the problem where people fail at things they shouldn't.
Don't make assumptions that it's the d20 system.
>>47525399
Neither option is optimal, because you're still losing health. It's a no-win scenario, and it punishes players for using their abilities.
It also punishes players who made the mistake of choosing Glaive. A good amount of their abilities run off their Might pool. Y'know, the one that is constantly dwindling because everything in this game does fucking Might damage? In the core game, only 9 sources do Intellect damage, and 10 do Speed. Everything else hits your Might.
Glaives get fucked by this system, and they keep getting fucked by all the others.
>>47525502
>Classes
Numenera doesn't have classes, you are thinking of a false dichotomy where a game is point buy or class based.
To be more accurate, it is a tiered, multi-package game where you pick several skill packages for your character.
No matter if you pick "fighter" or "wizard" you can still pick the package that lets you shoot lightning.
Yes, one of your packages can generally lead you towards "magic" and another towards being physically adept, but it's Science Fantasy.
>>47525502
Also, there are charop forums for Numenera, the creator of Numenera as a general rule put WAY too many limitations on high tier casters. Even "Move Mountains" can only push a semi truck a small distance.
At all tiers in the core book, the double edge of fighter is superior, even if your focus makes you a caster.
>>47525551
That's not true, it's not a dichotomy, you can also choose to not spend points and just roll.
Also, by definition, the one where you lose less points is optimal.
Would you like an example round?
>>47525551
Glaives have edge that lets them use their might abilities for cheaper or free. They are also given Armor training, which is so OP that it means they never actually take enough damage to lose int, and can use it to channel their spellcasting.
They are the optimal caster.
>>47516609
Isn't that the series where the main characters are somewhere between Asterix and Saitama in terms of being stupidly overpowered?
Also just play a Flash Gordon campaign with Queen playing in the background the whole time like holy shit I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.
>>47525562
>Numenera doesn't have classes
This is the absolute weirdest argument I have heard people use when defending this system. You have distinct character archetypes separated by their skills and abilities. What else would you fucking call them? Hell, even the book outright says they're classes in a sidebar.
>inb4 muh descriptor/focus
D&D Isn't suddenly a classless system because two different fighters can pick different weapon proficiencies. This isn't an argument. You're talking out your ass.
>>47525709
It says the Type package could be called classes, however Focus has more impact than every feat and weapon proficiency a fighter will ever pick over 20 levels.
It literally defines your powers...
>>47512759
>How do you make Science Fantasy good?
I have no clue.
>I love the idea of the genre
What would this genre imply? :Curious:
"Distinguishing between science fiction and fantasy, Rod Serling claimed that the former was "the improbable made possible" while the latter was "the impossible made probable".[1] As a combination of the two, science fantasy gives a scientific veneer of realism to things that simply could not happen in the real world under any circumstances." :Wiki-Answer:
Any examples? This is the first time that I've heard of this genre.
>>47525533
>>47525636
>>47525737
>blatant lies
wew lad, this is some next level denial
even 3.pfags aren't this deluded
>>47525811
>even 3.pfags aren't this deluded
...
>>47525844
Thank you for the backup, but the best strategy is not to respond to him.
>>47525770
As mentioned before, Star Wars is often the go-to example. It's a story that's deeply mythological/fantasy in its bones, being all about ancient orders of knights, an evil empire, wise old wizards, evil wizards, swords passed down from father to son, etc, etc. The sci fi stuff is window dressing, and was never the focus as it is in more hard sci-fi stories, or even in stuff like Star Trek.
And even aside from the overt stuff mentioned above, George Lucas intentionally set out to ape Joseph Cambell's mythological hero cycle. He's stated as much. As a result, a ton of stuff in Star Wars is essentially a stand in for concepts from myth and fantasy. For example, the Death Star is a dragon.
>giant force of destruction unleashed by evil black knight
>it rampages around the "kingdom" laying waste to castles/planets
>Spits out fiery death
>Has a single vulnerable spot
>The hero, a farmboy raised in obscurity, not knowing his father was a famous knight, is given his father's sword
>goes on a quest to learn about the dragons' single weak spot
>Has a wise old wizard hermit instruct him
>In the final battle, must trust the mystic advice of the wizard to strike true and kill the dragon in a single blow
>is rewarded by a princess
>>47525844
have you ever seen a 3.pfag claim that the class that doesn't get spells is the "optimal caster?"
>>47525770
Dude, Star Wars. It's not rocket science, if a setting has both common science fiction elements (high-tech weapons, space travel, novel social systems, etc.) and common fantasy elements (magic, divine beings, a strong notion of fate), it is science-fantasy.
>>47525737
Cont.
A "wizard" who has a bow focus will be like a weak Dr. Strange mixed with a souped up Hawkeye. He'll be shooting the weakspot in a selectively evolved future dragon from 200 yards.
A "fighter" who has a gravity control focus will be have powers similar to a cross between magneto(but gravity) and the juggernaut.
>>47525925
>Dude, Star Wars.
Star wars is fantasy (in SPACE).
>if a setting has both common science fiction elements (high-tech weapons, space travel, novel social systems, etc.) and common fantasy elements (magic, divine beings, a strong notion of fate), it is science-fantasy.
Science fiction implies scientific explanations in fiction. So, no. I don't quite follow.
>>47525883
Implying pathfags aren't the cancer killing tabletop is a far greater crime than his autism about a minor system only him and one other person has ever even heard of.
>>47525970
"Fantasy IN SPACE" is basically what "space fantasy" means. There might be spaceships and lasers and other things associated with the sci-fi genre, but they're more for aesthetic.
Another example of space fantasy? WH40k.
>>47526037
>"space fantasy"
So, "space fantasy" is by identity "science fantasy" then?
>>47526060
Same difference, yeah.
>>47526077
>Same difference, yeah.
You learn something new everyday I guess.
I think It's weird seeing Star Wars as a combination of science fiction and fantasy though. If it did have "science fiction" elements in it I would expect explanations as far as what a lightsaber is, how space travel works, etc. Which I can not remember that the movies had? Perhaps the novels/games have them?
>>47526192
most sci-fi movies don't go into much detail about how technology works
>>47525970
>Science fiction implies scientific explanations in fiction
No, not really. You could argue that this is the case in hard sci-fi, but it doesn't hold in general. No one would argue that Philip K. Dick is not a sci-fi writer, and he barely ever explains how things work in his novels from a "scientific" point of view.
Also, going by your definition, science-fantasy is an oxymoron, as explaining things in terms of science (i.e. through the use of an established methodology based on theories and empirical findings) is the exact opposite of explaining things through some form of magic (i.e. through entities and forces which explicitly break the common laws of reality).
That's why the midichlorian explanation of the Force is so jarringly at odds with the rest of the SW universe. You can't simultaneously treat it as a scientifically measurable quantity, and a mystical universal tendency that defies reason.
>>47526243
>most sci-fi movies don't go into much detail about how technology works
Perhaps you are correct. You probably are, since I don't see anyone else "take" my party in this particular discussion.
>>47526253
>Also, going by your definition, science-fantasy is an oxymoron, as explaining things in terms of science (i.e. through the use of an established methodology based on theories and empirical findings) is the exact opposite of explaining things through some form of magic (i.e. through entities and forces which explicitly break the common laws of reality).
Which kind of was my point, and which would have been expressed better if english was my mother tougue.
>That's why the midichlorian explanation of the Force is so jarringly at odds with the rest of the SW universe. You can't simultaneously treat it as a scientifically measurable quantity, and a mystical universal tendency that defies reason.
Indeed. Which kind of highlights my thoughts in a sense. That is, the first three films are fantasy movies, in space. You get no explanations for various phenomenons whatsoever. They just are.
The "midichlorian explanation" in turn actually brings "sci-fi" elements to Star Wars. Which doesn't account for much to be honest. So perhaps I should consider the last Star Wars (I hate those movies) movies as an example of Sci-Fantasy then.
>>47526414
I would say that science-fantasy is more of an aesthetic than anything else. It's an excuse to have spaceships, wizards, aliens and demons all in one place and its appeal lies in the fact that you can have your protagonists encounter wildly different situations and solve them in more creative ways than in a straight up sci-fi or fantasy story/setting. Warhammer 40K does this by having demons be vulnerable by sufficiently large/advanced firearms for example.
It really boils down to how broad your definition of science-fiction/fantasy is. Just like with cyberpunk, where you have purists that insist that only the stuff from the 80s is the real deal, as it approaches a number of themes from a very specific angle, and those that also include stuff that has the whole "cyber" aesthetic as legitimate representatives of the genre, you can also interpret science-fantasy more narrowly, and more broadly.
>>47526813
I appreciate your thoughts on this topic, and you are probably correct in the end. You actually made me think, which is weird considering this is /tg/ and all...
>>47525038
>posts Shattered RPG pic
>>47526874
I won't claim to be an authority on the topic, as I developed an interest in sci-fan only recently. Threads like these are the reason why I come to /tg/ in the first place, I find that people around here are more likely to have diverse knowledge and interests, which often makes for very productive, or at least interesting, discussion.
>>47515681
No Riddick, UnderVerse ? My African American Relative, please - makes sad face ......
>>47525502
Huh, so Numenerayareyaredaze basically is 4e if they went with "everyone is a barbarian" rather than "everyone is a wizard".
