Last thread: >>47459864 (OP)
>Pastebin
http://pastebin.com/PPptBB5u
>Latest News
http://theonyxpath.com/something-something-pun-about-may-monday-meeting-notes/
The Pack is here!
>richfags
http://drivethrurpg.com/product/181760?affiliate_id=13&src=TheOnyxPath
>poorfags
http://www.mediafire.com/download/n7htcqyqk0y0acy/%5BWtF%5DThe_Pack.PDF
>Question
How often do you guys use politics in your games?
>>47504972
I try to splash some in whether the game is focused on it or not, just to remind the players that no matter how little the NPCs care about them, they can be bought.
For when Dave gets here - got any more info you can share on the London Consillium in Mage 2e
Rough populations of native / tourist Mages would be helpful too
Why have the last couple of threads been so slow?
>>47505298
People are sick of arguing with Aspel and have abandoned the thread.
>>47504972
>How often do you guys use politics in your games?
In Vampire my games are about 98% politics, but any of the others it rarely becomes an issue unless the players make a point of pursuing it.
>>47505327
>tfw all of the world of darkness games I've ever been in are meatgrinders with not a lot of roleplay
Why play this system if we're going to run it like DnD?
>>47505358
Because D&D vampires have level adjustment and are better than mages. Can't have that.
>>47505285
Dave didn't write the Consiliums, so he probably won't be offering up much info on any of them.
>>47505374
>Better than mages
>Can never hit level 20
>>47505614
Like anyone actually plays level 20 games without dipping into Epic.
>>47505374
>better than mages
>any edition of D&D
Caster supremacy is unavoidable.
>>47504972
Question for the Werewolf The Forsaken players. I'm creating my first character for a game and I want to go with a Cahalith who is potentially interested in lore of old that exists in the Apocalypse setting. She wants to uncover details on the genocide of the other werefolk (Ratkin, Bastet, Gurahl, all that furry shit). As far as I know, these aren't really covered in current editions so I want to know if they're still considered canon. I'd like my character to dig into these histories and turn up some of the buried history there just as a character trait, nothing to hijack the game. I know acknowledging a little of Changing Breeds is ultimately up to the GM and I know it's kind of universally hated in some circles. Is there official word on whether or not this stuff has been retconned out of the World of Darkness setting? Apologies for any ignorance on my part, still learning the ins and outs of the game.
>>47505804
Apocalypse is entire different game line.
But there are other were like the werewolves. So you could still explore that line of thought.
>>47505804
Forsaken and Apocalypse are entirely 100% unconnected
They're entirely separate games, worlds, universes, etc
It's not a retcon, because oWoD(Apocalypse) ended, and they rebooted the entire gameline into nWoD(Forsaken); now known as CofD.
That said, if your ST is having there be any sort of connection between them at all, that's fine, but we can't exactly tell you how to do things in such a scenario unless we know the specifics
Sidenote: Cahalith is more 'proclaimer of lore, scary beast'; if you want a character specialized in researching shit, I'd go with an Ithaeur, or at least join the Bone Shadows
>>47505804
Dark Eras has shapeshifters other than Werewolves, no?
>>47505909
Eh, the Aztec Era has Skinchangers, if that's what you ask about.
>>47505983
No they had a Bastetfrom Changing Breeds, surely it had mechanics for them
>>47505871
Damn, okay thanks for letting me know.
>>47505890
I'll have to ask him about it. I'd don't have much else I can tell you except that there will be one other werewolf and a mage in our group. In my charter creation, I was considering history a part of lore so I was going in the direction uncovering and preserving stories/history no matter how unpleasant they may be.
>>47505909
I'll have to dig into that as well.
>>47505994
Really? Where were they? Because I thought I had read through the entire book.
>>47505994
You're thinking of how a Bastet shows up in the Beast Fiction Anthology. The only non-Werewolf shifters in Dark Eras are a passing mention of the Gudthabak bull-shifters in The Sundered World.
>>47506000
Yeah, the old World of Darkness and the new World of Darkness/Chronicles are Darkness are completely unrelated settings. It's also worth nothing that non-Werewolf shifters aren't considered canon by default, and one of the two nWoD/CofD books that deals with them (Changing Breeds) is universally loathed.
>two werewolves and a mage
Abandon ship, anon. Crossover games are awful 99% of the time, and mages do not play nice with other splats. If that mage player makes a Thyrsus, he'll flat-out be better at spirit stuff than you two.
Can a freelancer share what they wrote on their cover letter? Knowing what to write there is even more confusing than knowing what to write for the actual submission. Most of the stories I've heard have been "I knew another writer and they told me to submit something".
>>47506838
Tell them you're a bisexual mixed-race non-binary single parent from Azerbaijan with a PhD in Azerbaijani culture and were made a paraplegic when you were fighting a tige to save a baby from being eaten.
That's pretty fucking diverse, as is their mandate
New to Mage. How do I make it so my character has to be singing a song to cast spells?
>>47506978
It's hardly a mandate. The only mention of them wanting diversity, I'm pretty sure, was the writers' call for Hunter.
Otherwise?
>Ian Watson, white man
>Chris Allen, white man
>David Brookshaw, white man
>Matthew MacFarland, white man
>Richard Thomas, white man
>Rich Dansky, white man
>etc
Hey, quick question out of curiosity:
Did "The Pack" sell wellenough? Or will OPP scrap the W:tF because nobody plays it except bunch of autists like myself?
>>47507289
There's at least 1 trap at OPP team.He writes good stuff, nice input on forums
>>47506978
"Okay, we'll put you on writing a Nakchivan setting. We really want you to pull deep from the culture to create some interesting monsters and occult situations for Hunters in that area to deal with.'
>>47507323
There's a transsexual on the team, and she writes good stuff.
Actually there's more than one.
>>47507294
it's one of the three core gamelines. I very much doubt it's going to be scrapped, unless the entire Chronicles line gets scrapped. I wouldn't worry about it.
>>47507294
The pack is fantastic, did you not read it?
How would you describe a Fairest Blightbent?
Is Mage 2e out yet?
>>47507454
No, Dave was killed whilst on holiday and they suspended release
>>47507288
Mages only need to be able to think straight/focus in order to cast a spell. However, you could use singing as a yantra in a couple of ways:
You could take the Shadow Name merit and construct your shadow persona around singing and music, or you could take the High Speech merit and characterize your mantras as singing.
The argument of temporal sympathy has restarted on the forums.
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/902581-questions-about-temporal-sympathy-and-time-magic
>>47506838
A good cover letter should be two or three short paragraphs. Here, have a format that I used for my submission:
[Generic opening salutory, since multiple devs could potentially be looking at your material. "Dear Monica" could work if you specifically want to go for Hunter 2e.]
[First paragraph: Summarize the submission attached to your e-mail. Make sure that you tell them what line it's for. Something as simple as "A fiction piece about X and a statblock about Y" works.]
[Second paragraph: give your publishing history. Do not lie, plenty of people have OPP as their first gig. For the Hunter Open Call, this is where you'd talk about your background or some cool stuff you have experience with that you think you can bring to the Hunter table. Keep it short and again, do not lie.]
[Third paragraph: list all the other lines you'd like to write for. Remember, only WoD and CofD lines are currently looking for new writers at this time.]
[Closing salutory]
[Name and adresss]
Remember to attach the non-disclosure agreement and your actual submission. Then, like they say, wait feverishly. I didn't hear back for months.
>>47507598
I'm not sure how the form actually works. I couldn't get Adobe to actually sign it last time. I think I just printed it out and scanned it with my signature.
>>47507598
See this is the problem .Only interesting thing that ever happened to me was a prisoner taking me hostage for like 6 minutes and threatening to rape me. I don't have anything interesting to write about myself and I'm a just a white guy from an Anglo country so i have no unique or interesting culture I can talk about.
>>47507472
my only gripe with temporal sympathy is that there needs to be clarification on whether you need a sympathetic yantra with a past or present version of a person. Like if you want to target someone when they were a teenager, would you need their high school diary or could you use a lock of their hair as it is now?
>>47507442
A body of sharp lines and concrete corners like a brutalist structure with a thick cloud of nauseating and almost choking perfume following them everywhere. Their belly and back contains a square glass window with a fluid like paint sloshing around inside, popping, fizzling, and creating smoke as it moves in a mesmerizing way.
Generally, you probably want an 'art is dangerous' bent, or become the perfume aisle. People have died from too much perfume/axe bodyspray in a room! I mixed both because just being a perfume bottle is boring. Paint fumes also work though.
>>47507625
PDF readers should let you be able to sign it digitally but printing and scanning is fine.
>>47507661
"I have personally experienced a hostage situation" is something worthy of nothing. There's also subcultures within your Anglo country that you know or are apart of. You also, I assume, know how your field of work operates. Everyone has a personal lived experience that they can share.
If you truly beleive you have nothing, absolutely nothing, submit with your strongest work, like you were going to do anyways. Every dev looks at that pool, and you may be surprised who responds.
>>47507780
Glorious.
>>47505358
Politics and roleplay are not inseparable. An HtV game can explore character development, personal horror and action / adventure without getting into compact / conspiracy politics.
Also why would anyone play D&D?
>>47507661
Then just be as direct and honest without embellishment as you can and let the quality of your work speak for itself. In the end, it doesn't matter how white straight or anglo you are so long as you can produce quality material.
>>47506978
So you considering citizen of another country some kind of abomination like nigger or gay?
>>47507780
>>47507442
Look like the 80s and be poisonous as fuck. You're a Costa Rican frog.
>Fairest representing lead based paint
Also, Snopes me on that death-from-perfume thing.
>>47507809
>PDF readers should let you be able to sign it digitally
I'm pretty sure it was an error between keyboard and chair.
>>47508155
You assume the only type of diversity is being a nigger or gay?
>>47508172
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=death+by+body+spray Multiple different deaths for you.
>>47508236
Oh wow, I would not have expected it to be that prevalent.
>>47507408
I know it's fantastic, question is - how does it sell? I would like to see next W:tF supplements.
Dave - what did you think of new Top Gear
I'm planning a Deviant campaign based on Clarkson, Hammond & May's shenanigans. Will that work?
>>47508718
Or you could make The Stig a Deviant.
>>47508718
Clarkson is clearly arisen.
Hammond is a demon with poor cover who try to look "cool"
May is a mage and he is constantly distracted by all the things around only he can see with his mage sight. Also space arcana 0.
>>47508805
>May is a mage and he is constantly distracted by all the things around only he can see with his mage sight
As someone who likes a lot of James May's side stuff where he does fixit stuff or explains how things work, this is definitely true. Especially watching the behind the scenes episodes of Head Squeeze.
>>47508718
I thought Clarkson was fired because everyone finally got tired of giving him second and third chances not to be an asshole.
>>47507294
>Did "The Pack" sell well enough? Or will OPP scrap the W:tF because nobody plays it except bunch of autists like myself?
Sales stopped increasing when the file started being pirated.
But they've already gained the money it cost to make back with at least some extra. Any sale from now on (and any physical sale) is going to be profit.
>>47508922
>I thought Clarkson was fired because everyone finally got tired of giving him second and third chances not to be an asshole.
Clarkson was never fired, he just didn't renew his contract with the BBC when it expired. Punching an Irishman was just a smokescreen
>>47505890
I've taken your advice to heart and now this character is Ithaeur and weirdly enough an Iron Master. I'm going for the angle that she was pretty based in science until her change happened and now that she knows that spirits are a thing she'll just deal but god help you if you try to push that new age crap on her. Sort of a skeptical mystic.
>>47506591
The mage character in question is my husband so I know he won't be a dick about it. He's intentionally trying to avoid stepping on our toes in his character creation. The rules themselves might be a clusterfuck, but we'll have to see.
>>47508941
It's still part of the top ten on DriveThru RPG that OPP is dominating right now, so that's a good sign.
>>47509027
>I've taken your advice to heart and now this character is Ithaeur and weirdly enough an Iron Master. I'm going for the angle that she was pretty based in science until her change happened and now that she knows that spirits are a thing she'll just deal but god help you if you try to push that new age crap on her. Sort of a skeptical mystic.
My character's an elodoth Iron Master. They were a supernatural debunker. Before he changed, he was brought in by some of the other pack (who had changed, they were ithaeur bone shadows) because they were going to make a show for tv about exploring haunted houses (which they would then shut down with their magic, as they were ghost hunters).
Unfortunately the house they picked was guarded by the last member of our pack, an old hunter in darkness who made up the ghost shit to scare people away from the house so the hidden darkness beneath wouldn't be let out.
When my character had his first change the house was destroyed and the evil got out.
>>47509144
Yeah. Hopefully sales will increase again when there are hard copies available.
We want it to at least hit Gold.
>>47509144
To be fair, DriveThru RPG's ranking system favours new products. It's simply a ranked list of everything with [Time on Market] divided by [Copies sold]. It's a very crude metric.
>>47509177
The metal icons are a signifier of how many copies have been sold. Electrum is 251, Gold is 501. Platinum 1001.
>>47509177
Well that explains why Beast jumped back to third place so quickly.
>>47509228
Does it? It actually seems weird that it would jump in rank.
>>47509227
Wow, so less than 500 copies have been sold so far?
Also, why is Electrum less than Gold? Electrum is an alloy of gold and silver.
>>47509291
>Electrum is an alloy of gold and silver
That means it's less than 100% gold, and the remaining bits are less valuable than gold, ergo overall less than gold.
>>47509291
>Wow, so less than 500 copies have been sold so far?
Yes, but it's a short book and didn't cost as much to make as some others. 4 writers.
>Also, why is Electrum less than Gold? Electrum is an alloy of gold and silver.
Silver - Electrum - Gold
>>47509291
>Does it? It actually seems weird that it would jump in rank.
Maybe he means because fo their "second" release. They started selling hardcover (it's not on top 10 anymore tho).
>>47509401
>(it's not on top 10 anymore tho).
N/m it is, it's just number 10.
>>47509401
Oh, when was that? I thought the final version had been out for a while now.
>>47509474
Weird looks like it all came out march 30th.
Dunno why it got a jump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou0w40EtMDA
This is how I Thyrsus
anybody have "The Primordial Feast: An Anthology for Beast: the Primordial" pdf
So the Astral is a vertible cornucopia of material, but rarely have I heard people tell of their exploraiton of it.
What have you done in the collective subconscious?
I'm thinking of playing up its importance for communication within a Legacy, and a relatively secure location for training.
>>47510940
When I stop being shit I'm going to run a Mage game where the Primordial Dream is verging with reality. My Hunter open call submission is also going to vaguely imply that it's touching on the Temenos.
>>47509027
The issue with mage in crossovers isn't entirely whether or not the player in question is a dick. Mages have access to an extremely broad toolbox, and their mechanics are such that anything they choose to be good at, they are going to be ridiculous at. You also need to reconcile mage's completely different tone/theming, and handling Obsessions, giving out arcane exp, and so on, while balancing it against the greater focus of the game (in this case probably Wolf Politics and spirits as per WtF). It's just hard to do and there's a lot of potential for someone to end up feeling not good about it, especially if any of you are new.
>Meanwhile, in my Mage game
>Players meet for the first time in-character in a Cafe, discuss the Obrimos's Obsession for a bit
>A guy screams and runs out of the restroom, says there's a dead body inside, they check it out
>Naked guy with a hole burned through his chest
>Acanthus uses Time to watch the round before his death, sees an entirely non-descript naked albino man pulling the guy's clothes off as he takes his last breath. There's no hole through his shirt, but the hole is already through his chest.
>Obrimos Mage Sights and sees a faint glow around the edges of the hole
>They fuck off before the police show up, start looking for the albino man from a nearby rooftop with Zoom In
>Obrimos spots an albino man on the other side of the Thames(game is set in Richmond, London, UK), but it's not the right guy
>Acanthus sees someone wearing the clothes the dead guy had on, but he's not an Albino
>Call up the Obrimos's mentor, talk for a bit about what the fuck is going on
>Suggests using Mage Sight on it, they do, realize it's a robot, hang up so they can figure out what to do
>Follow him for a bit so the Moros can figure out what he's made of(Steel, Silicate-Aluminium, lots of other miscellany)
>Obrimos uses Influence Electricity to turn him off, Moros uses State Change to liquify his joints
>They pretend he's a drunk friend who fell over
>It's 1 pm
>They succeed at a roll to convince people they're just a couple of drunk uni kids walking their drunk friend home
>Start carrying him into an alleyway as he wakes up and asks what happened, what they did
>Moros suggests one of the other 2 go check out a school he was walking towards, just in case any more killer robots come along
>Robot laughs at the implication that he's a killer robot
>Moros taps on his skull to prove the point
>Question the robot for a bit, basically learn he just killed the guy for his clothes, was gonna kill "an enemy" of his creator before they stopped him
>Session ends there
>>47511485
Is this game just a lead in to a Deviant game?
>>47510940
>So the Astral is a vertible cornucopia of material, but rarely have I heard people tell of their exploraiton of it.
In 1e only one splat could get there and it was really hard to do, and mechanically annoying
>>47511705
No, it's session 1 of a Mage game
The Moros is currently wanting to dis-assemble the robot so he can learn to make his own.
>>47510940
My multi-splat game did have an Astral arc, but as >>47511769 mentioned, this had to be railroaded rather than allowed to happen.
Anywhere in the Astral that is deep enough to have cool, useful stuff in it, is also deep enough to be suicidal if you go in solo. And selling the rest of the party on an astral expedition is hard even if they're Mages.
On that note, I would say this: Despite enormous quantities of material on it, I have no fucking clue why anyone would ever visit their own Oneiros outside of the GM pulling bullshit (Like "A fey has invaded it" or whatever).
Noone will ever find your oneiros unless you take them there (Or if you lose a fight to something strong in the Temenos), so no point in building defenses, and there's nothing much to be gained intrinsically (even as a source of sage advice its pretty crap because everything there is invested in you staying as you are).
>>47511855
What's the point of Matter if it doesn't let you analyze something without tearing it apart.
Chris, Chigg and Matt delve into Beast the Primordial, and take a critical eye to the game.
For the Secret Frequency we have a look at the Pope Lick Monster.
http://podcast.darker-days.org/e/darker-days-radio-episode-72/
>>47511969
It does
He analyzed it so that he could effectively tear it apart
>>47512070
I thought Darker Days was oWoD only and Network Zero was your CofD podcast.
>>47512875
Nah Network Zero is CofD only, and starting from the very beginning of everything to be more accessible for people.
Midnight Express is our friends who do a oWoD podcast.
DDR then is both, and more current, and also a place to come for interviews with the writers.
>>47512978
Very beginning in what way
>>47513734
Well Network Zero is going to go over all the core books for CofD, looking at them without the overhead of all the books that have gone before. Once we have done that we will start looking at each of the expansions coming out for each 2e book, before even beginning to delve into the good books for each game in 1e.
We are really trying to keep it focused on 2e though and act as a introduction/reintroduction to each game. For me personally it is useful as each of the games have changed in ways which while that is fine to discuss on DDR, on Network Zero we can really do longer reviews.
>>47513806
So what is this exactly? You're just sort of going through and reviewing the books? That feels like it could only really cover a few episodes, since there are only, what, 8 books for CofD?
>>47513865
Well once we have done the review we can go into particular topics for each game. So chronicle concepts, or how to run political games. Things like that. I have plenty of ideas I never get to use personally.
>>47511855
I was just saying you could have this Chronicle with Robotmen who don't know they're Robotmen, then once it rounds out, you've got Robotmen who've learned they're Robotmen running away from their creator. It's where my head went with the story.
>>47514433
I almost had him be a robot-man who didn't know he was a robot-man, but decided it didn't really fit with where things were going
Largely because he was about to walk into a primary school and kill a child, a few minutes after killing and stealing the clothes from a guy in a cafe restroom.
>>47511964
>I have no fucking clue why anyone would ever visit their own Oneiros outside of the GM pulling bullshit
Well, if you want to practice Goetia you're probably going to be spending lots of time hanging out with your Demons. And anyone could and should pay their Daemon a visit every once and a while if they have the chance, it usually has useful things to say.
>>47511485
Sounds like the Obrimos is the only one who got to play.
Does a mage with Fate 2 and a Praxis for Exceptional Luck receive a Beat every scene literally just for being lucky?
They can cast Exceptional Luck, score an easy exceptional success, and then resolve a Charmed condition for a fortunate occurrence... that gives them a Beat.
>>47515137
Only if the GM lets them roll.
Which is why the Quick and Dirty spellcasting rules are so helpful in that respect.
>>47515189
Quick and Dirty spellcasting is only for:
>spells or create effects that should be easy and require little risk or effort from the mage
Page 126 says mages use Conditions to gain Beats all the time.
>>47515240
And casting Exceptional Luck to just do something mundane without any pressure on... won't be rolled.
You don't get Beats for picking a cheap bike lock that's sitting on your desk.
>>47514917
I almost mentioned Goetia. The thing is, anyone capable of summoning Goetia could instead summon something from say, the Temenos or Deep Astral. The only real advantage to summoning Goetia is that they're something you can summon with the Mind arcanum that you can absolutely guarantee will never kill you. Apart from that one advantage, they're a bit weaker and far less useful utility-wise than anything else you would bother to summon from the Astral, and often less personable/likely to follow instructions.
ALSO, cause you derangements if they get taken down while summoned.
>>47515240
I would imagine living an everyday, charmed life would be easy and require little risk or effort for an Acanthus.
Isn't that their entire point?
>>47515240
Mages use NEGATIVE conditions for beats all the time.
>Spells most often inflict Conditions that harm, hinder, or inconvenience characters. Spells can mimic the effects of a helpful Condition, but using magic to gain a benefit and a Beat is double-dipping. Beneficial Conditions created by magic don’t grant Beats unless they’re the result of an exceptional success.
>using magic to gain a benefit and a Beat is double-dipping
>Beneficial Conditions created by magic don’t grant Beats
>>47515425
>Beneficial Conditions created by magic don’t grant Beats unless they’re the result of an exceptional success.
Praxis.
>>47515353
Even if you do use Q&D spellcasting, you still get a roll and can generate an exceptional success from it with a Praxis.
>>47515561
which is why every splat has abilities to give them exceptional successes on 3s instead of 5s
>>47515520
You could do that with any spell though.
It just comes down the to the GM either permitting or not permitting you to roll to cast in those situations.
>>47515610
How does the GM adjudicate whether or not you can cast that day-long high Potency buff you have only 2 dice for?
>>47515626
Quite easily
>>47514960
They all did a fair share of stuff, overall;
The Acanthus looked back in time to get the first glimpse of the robot, as a non-descript albino, found the robot after he made himself look italian, and buffed everyone
The Obrimos Mage Sight'd the dead guy, gave the Acanthus the benefit of Zoom In so he could spot the robot, and did the first, short-term disable of the robot(also contacted his Mentor for help)
The Moros(who I'm not sure was really interested until the point they realized there was a robot, since he didn't do much) figured out what made the robot tick, disabled him for a longer term, tricked the random passersby into not giving a shit about the group dragging an immobilized man, and questioned the robot while they walked
It seems that given a rote for Enhance Skill (Mind 3), a mage could perform an Elder Scrolls-like trick of boosting a certain skill, using it as part of a rote to cast Enhance Skill again, taking penalties to boost the skill even *higher* (overwriting the old application of Enhance Skill), and repeating the process until they have a skill in the hundreds or even thousands. At that point, they can then use that skill for other rotes, such as for Augment Mind (Mind 3).
Is this correct?
>>47515520
Exceptional Success derived conditions are not what the box on page 126 is referring to.
>>47515971
>Is this correct?
No.
>>47516015
Why not?
>>47515971
Rote Mundra is a Yantra, which caps at +5 dice.
>>47516031
The yantra bonus caps at +5 dice only AFTER all penalties for spell factors are included.
>>47515971
No
Read the fucking spell
>The spell cannot increase the subject’s Attribute above her normal maximum allowed by her Gnosis.
>>47516045
Actually, that would work.
If you had the Mana needed to keep activating the +2 Reach option on Enhance Skill needed to take it above the normal maximum.
>>47516105
>+2 Reach: By spending a point of Mana, the mage may increase her subject’s Skills above the normal maximum allowed.
Exceptional successes give back Mana and then some.
>>47516128
>Exceptional successes
Requiring 5 successes, and you can't even use a Praxis, because you're using a Rote.
>>47516183
3 Mind + 3 Gnosis + 5 yantras + 3 Willpower (exceptional success on casting restores 1 Willpower too) = 14 dice, good odds.
>>47516224
Passable odds.
Either way, it's breaking the system.
Which is hardly impressive.
>>47516106
>>47516128
>>47516224
Looks like we've found another of those potentially ridiculously powerful spells in the game
Too bad that's never going to actually happen in a game
Any ST with a mind is going to stop you before you cast it a third time, if they even let you cast it a second--either they'll just flat out say 'no, that's dumb, you're gamin the system', or SOMEONE will notice you casting the same spell over and over again
+There's literally no way to go above 10 in any skill
>>47516334
The strict 10 cap is only for Power Stat.
It also seems that Time 3 can use Temporal Summoning transform someone into a defenseless baby with, at the very most, Withstand 3.
Why is this allowed?
>>47515971
Potency scales 2:1 (every point of potency requires -2), so you would cap out pretty quickly. Not to mention that everything hard caps at 10.
>>47516379
Because some Time Master will notice you becoming a Temporal assassin and send his own temporal assassins after your baby form.
Think the doctor in Looper.
>>47516379
Because fuck you, Time.
>>47516379
Because Time despite being an incredibly powerful Arcanum, is rife with possibility for Acts of Hubris.
>>47516379
+1 withstand if you don't know their name. So you need potency 5 (4 if you have the name). Temporal sympathy takes out one of your yantra slots. Then you have to spend a bunch of reach to make it instant, sensory and last. Certainly you CAN do it. It's just not as easy as you think.
>>47516379
>Why is this allowed?
Because you're stupid and think that something being possible means it's easy, and you think that killing someone with magic is meaningful.
>>47516359
>A fact pulled out of somebody's ass because there's no proof either way
Again, any ST with a brain won't let you go above 10, because there's no way anybody wants to sit through more than 20 dice being rolled and counted on a single action
It's a fun theoretical rules breaker, but you're never going to accomplish it in any practical scenario
>>47516379
Because you have to compete with a Withstand of 3, minimum, to do that in the first place, 4 if you don't know their Sympathetic Name, it requires a Sympathetic Yantra which gives no bonus dice, costs a mana and a reach(Sensory Range required), and line-of-sight, or else another mana for Spatial sympathy and another +1 to the Withstand. And that's not even getting started on dice penalties for making it last long enough to do anything with it.
Enjoy your Act of Hubris and lack of wisdom, bitch
>>47516379
>>47516334
>+There's literally no way to go above 10 in any skill
There's many ways.
>>47516574
Do tell. Has to be bonus skill dots though.
>>47516574
Name one that isn't in a book about having Power Stat 6+
>>47516379
Because mages are the best (of you)
>>47516666
Shit, I mistyped that
Name one that IS in a book which assumes you're already at Power Stat 6+, at which point going above is already just straight up a thing
>>47516450
>>47516525
Time 3 means you have a minimum Potency 3. Take a -4 penalty for Potency 5.
Spend a Reach for Advanced Duration.
>>47516525
>Act of Hubris
>Forcing a sapient being (whether a Sleeper, spirit, or anything else) to act counter to its interests, altering its nature long-term, or binding it to a task all risk degeneration, as does deliberate and premeditated murder and violence that leaves its victim with long-term injury.
Turning someone into a baby for an hour to kill them falls under none of this, and even then, it happens to be no worse than killing someone with magic any other way.
>>47516633
Totems
>This can take
werewolves and Wolf-Blooded one dot above their normal limits (usually five dots, barring an exceptional Primal Urge score).
>>47516697
So, in total, you're spending 2 Reach, 1-2 mana, taking a -4, and losing a Yantra slot
It's also worth noting that the spell doesn't replace the present one with what you summon--that shows up somewhere else, and then whatever you to do it echoes forward from the summon's original point in time once the Duration ends
So, you're also triggering their Peripheral Mage Sight.
>>47516727
>Turning someone into a baby for an hour to kill them falls under none of this
>deliberate and premeditated murder and violence that leaves its victim with long-term injury
With how difficult this is to do, it's not something done on a whim. It's premeditated murder.
>>47516697
So you're going to walk over to your target and touch them for the duration of your ritual? Because you need that single free reach to make the spell instant and another to do it at sensory range.
>>47516764
If that works as you imply, that still requires being Primal Urge 10. 45 exp is not easy.
>>47504972
I've thrown in a bit of it, it's a fun thing to explore, especially when your group are in a position to destabilize things even further :^)
>>47516805
>45 exp is not easy.
No one said it was, but it's just 40 exp and
>>47516334
>+There's literally no way to go above 10 in any skill
is wrong
John Constantine, from Hellblazer, is my favorite character in all of fiction. How bad would it be to include him as a kind of "mysterious stranger" in my game, a shady friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend who might give the party some advice or something?
>>47516830
It's 45.
>>47516805
>If that works as you imply,
It's how the book says it works.
>>47516859
Do you mind your fellow players rolling their eyes and thinking it's stupid?
If you absolutely must just have him act like Constantine but don't have him introduce himself. He's not really a mysterious stranger if he tells you who he is.
>>47516915
I wasn't planning to have him tell them who he is, and none of my players read comics.
>>47516830
>>47516893
Not that guy, but that passage doesn't explicitly mention working for this specific niche case. Which is understandable because writers aren't going to waste words on something so specific.
Even if this works, that's only one way, not many.
>>47516859
>a mysterious overweight gentleman in red clothes with furry white lining slips down your chimney carrying a sack over his shoulder that bulges with toys
>he looks around at the mess and winks at you with a sparkling eye over a red nose
>ho ho ho, I see you've been killing vampires like a good boy! don't be naughty and hurt the ghouls, they don't know any better
>he pats his big belly that jiggles like a bowl full of jelly and ducks down to hop up the chimney
>players never figure out who the mysterious stranger was
constantine's like the second most famous wizard in modern times next to harry potter
>>47516998
Well, Constantine is real, so there's that.
>>47516998
Someday, I'm gonna save Christmas with a skeleton and a vampire
>>47516859
Put Grant Morrison in it instead.
>>47516727
>Feel free to add, take away, or adjust as you see fit.
Also, how the fuck does this not count as murder?
>>47516998
>constantine's like the second most famous wizard in modern times next to harry potter
No he's not. Hell, his players are more likely to wonder why British Harry Dresden is helping them out.
>>47517174
he's more famous than Harry Dresden, who is third (both had tv shows, comics, books, but constantine had movie and has been famous longer)
>>47517310
Constantine's movie starred Keanu Reeves and had him using guns. If you leave his name out of it, that wouldn't tell them it's him at ALL.
>>47516697
Starting mage with time 3, Gnosis 1.
The Spell being cast is Temporal Summoning (Time •••) pg 189 on a person they just met.
Primary Factor: Potency
With no Temporal Sympathy Attainment(pg 193) only their unchanged selves can be brought back; so you need to use this Attainment to summon the child.
Using Temporal Sympathy to summon them as a child you need a Sympathy Yantra(pg 122), lets say a toy of a child. 0 dice(see Temporal Sympathy) A weak connection and costs 1 mana.
The mage, being an Asshole, has this spell as a Rote Mudra. +3 dice from their skills.
Before penalties, the mage has 7 = (1 Gnosis + Time 3 +Rote 3) dice. 3 Potency.
They take -4 dice penalty to raise potency to 5. They need to be over 4 in order to get over the weak connection and not knowing their sympathetic name.
1 reach to make the spell instant.
to turn someone(not a sleeper) into a child for 1 round, without paradox, you have 3 dice(6 with willpower), and have to shoot a beam that they can dodge at them.
With paradox you can spend a reach to make it sympathetic, and another to make the spell last for a scene. 2 paradox dice.
This spell is terrible at murder. Its unwise and doesn't really work with witnesses. Also it costs mana and can be countered easily if you don't risk paradox. Only a master of time doesn't risk paradox with this spell, and again, if there are any witnesses that is a lie. There are a lot of better ways to kill someone then to become that "baby murdering asshat".
Why not use this same spell to send the room back to "when it was in that mob hit" and have them be killed by a hail of bullets from the 1940's? Or back to a second before the roof caved in 5 years ago? Or if you want to use it on them, send them back to when they were full of bullet wounds themselves and just finish the job yourself.
>>47517393
You missed the reach needed to make it non-touch.
That's a requirement for a sympathetic yantra.
Why does Death control cold, when cold is the absence of heat - which would be a Forces effect?
>>47516790
>So, in total, you're spending 2 Reach, 1-2 mana, taking a -4, and losing a Yantra slot
Really not that bad.
>It's also worth noting that the spell doesn't replace the present one with what you summon
"Cast upon an object, area, or living being, this spell replaces its subject with an earlier version of itself, chosen by the caster."
REPLACES.
>>47516805
>Because you need that single free reach to make the spell instant and another to do it at sensory range.
Just get a rote for it.
>>47518088
They had so add something to that shitty sphere to make it less so they added cold and darkness
>>47518088
Death also controls entropy.
>>47517393
>Using Temporal Sympathy to summon them as a child you need a Sympathy Yantra(pg 122), lets say a toy of a child. 0 dice(see Temporal Sympathy) A weak connection and costs 1 mana.
You don't. Bring a stick drawing.
>>47518088
>>47518153
Death controls absence, in general
Multiple Arcana being able to achieve the same thing is not a bad thing, anons
If it were, Life and Forces wouldn't both be capable of giving one nightvision
>>47518155
>You don't. Bring a stick drawing.
Makes literally no difference at all
It's still a Sympathetic Yantra you retarded piece of shit
Most STs probably won't actually let you use a stick drawing, even if you write their shadow name above it, because that's not really a representation of them, just like a ball-and-stick drawing of a cat labelled 'Franz' isn't exactly a representation of the Franz the cat you're targetting--it's a representation of EVERY Franz the cat, which isn't Sympathetic enough
Spirit Armor downgrades lethal damage from kinetic attacks
(bullets, claws, rocks, etc.) and the attacks of ephemeral entities to
bashing, for a number of wounds equal to her rating in the Arcanum.
What the hell does it mean by wounds? Number of attacks? Hit boxes?
>>47518155
Dont use the Temporal Sympathy or don't use the toy?
The toy adds character, and the Temporal Sympathy is needed.
>>47518238
You a Disciple of Spirit?
You have your Mage Armor up?
Congrats, your next three lethal injuries from kinetic or ephemeral attacks now do bashing instead.
>>47518265
Okay thanks.
Not really good against small hits, but turning 14 lethal into bashing would turn an instant death hit into knocked out and bleeding out.
Could I turn it on again to 'refresh' it in the same scene? I don't see why not.
>>47518342
I'd say you'd have to spend another mana for it, but sure
>>47518342
It downgrades it like that for each instance of damage during the scene.
>>47518238
>>47518265
>>47518422
Actually it probably means levels of damage
No other Mage Armor has a condition like that which would make it run out, they all last for the rest of the scene
>>47518451
>>47518451
>No other Mage Armor has a condition like that which would make it run out
Death and Spirit both do. They work different to all the others. All other effects remain for the scene (Death not falling unconscious), but after your arcarnum rating in health levels, the downgrade power is used up for the scene
>>47518342
1 mana and it lasts the scene. You can switch armor as a reflexive action for one mana.
>>47518485
What worthless fucking armour.
>>47518509
Prime is worse
>>47518485
Spirit has no other effect
The "protecting the character from any attack stemming from Twilight, and slowing the force of physical attacks" in the description is just a fluffing of the mechanics we're discussing now
There is no reason to believe either of these Mage Armors are just going to run out once you take enough hits, and plenty of reason to believe otherwise
It makes no mention of how to handle refreshing Mage Armors, nor Mage Armors ending at all before the scene is over, just how to handle changing to a new Mage Armor if you want to before the scene ends
>>47517310
Harry Dresden is from a bestselling series of novels. Constantine is still ultimately a comic book character, or a character from a non-Matrix Keanu Reeves movie. I've met more people who know Harry Dresden. And even then, having a Harry Dresden expy is only going to be slightly more noticeable than a Jack Reacher expy, and only because Harry Dresden ranks slightly behind Fate/Stay Night characters in terms of "how can I play this without my group knowing".
Not to mention that Constantine's general schtick is so vague and overdone in the genre that even his own series comments on it.
>>47518088
Same reason Death controls Shadows, which are the absence of Light. Death also gets Universal Counterspell, albeit stupidly late game in 1e. It's not about what's physical, it's about what's symbolic. And "Death" as an Arcanum is all about the symbolism of loss and decay and entropy.
>>47518563
>There is no reason to believe either of these Mage Armors are just going to run out once you take enough hits
First description of a would that I could ctrl+f was in pattern scouring:
>A mage can Scour her Pattern for Mana, literally tearing apart some of the building blocks that maintain her physical form. This shreds her mortal body, but the resulting release produces Mana. In game terms, she reduces a Physical Attribute (and all traits derived from it, such as Health for Stamina) by one dot for 24 hours, or suffers one resistant lethal wound. This produces three Mana.
Now re-reading the armor's effect:
>Spirit Armor downgrades lethal damage from kinetic attacks (bullets, claws, rocks, etc.) and the attacks of ephemeral entities to bashing, for a number of wounds equal to he rating in the Arcanum.
So after taking a number of lethal health levels = arcarnum dots (wounds) and them being downgraded to Bashing, what other wording makes you think it keeps working after that?
Nobody is denying that Spirit armor is shit compared to others. Unfortunately that's just how it is.
>>47518632
Which for me is enough to justify interpreting intent as to applying that mitigation to each individual hit, rather than as an non-renewable pool.
>>47518632
Why would you assume that it turns off? It's much more likely that it would reduce [Arcanum] wounds from each attack.
You get hit for 5 and it downgrades 3 of the Lethal to Bashing. You get hit for another 5 and now you have six bashing and four Lethal (which will probably wrap around to at least one more Lethal).
>>47518612
>Not to mention that Constantine's general schtick is so vague and overdone in the genre that even his own series comments on it.
I still love how my Obrimos's player made an occult detective, and when I said it was a very unoriginal concept, he asked why and who Constantine and Dresden were
Oh, you sweet summer child.
>>47518632
>one resistant lethal wound
read: "lethal damage level"
>what other wording makes you think it keeps working after that?
>Mage Armor requires a point of Mana to activate, whereupon it remains active for the scene, even if the mage falls unconscious, unless the mage dies.
>whereupon it remains active for the scene,
>remains active for the scene,
What you're saying directly contradicts this, since it would make Spirit armor immediately end after reducine [spirit] lethal damage to bashing
That's not how it works
Every time you take damage, for the rest of the scene, [Spirit] lethal damage is downgraded to bashing
This makes infinitely more sense than a fifth of the Mage Armors having an effect that only works for less than the full scene, but not getting any sort of comment about how they don't last for the full scene despite EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE SECTION ON MAGE ARMOR saying that they should
>>47518734
>he asked why and who Constantine and Dresden were
Exactly my point. Constantine is not the second most famous wizard in modern times next to Harry Potter. He barely ranks up there. People would list Merlin, Gandalf, Harry Potter, a lot of people before they'd list either Constantine OR Dresden.
>>47518632
It keeps working - it downgrades that many levels of damage *per attack*
>>47519029
>merlin, gandalf
>in modern times
gandalf is almost 100 years old you dumbshit
>>47520268
Not even 80 yet, actually.
Also what are you talking about? The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are at the top of the most well known pieces of fantasy literature. When people think "wizard" they think of a guy like Gandalf, not John Constantine.
The recent Hobbit films only reinforce Gandalf as a figure of THE wizard.
>>47509227
>>47509291
>>47509144
>>47508941
Oh my fucking God, are you kidding me.
4 writers and book sells for $10 between 250-500 copies? If we even assume 500 it's only $5000 of profit for a product that required months to make and paying those 4 people + artist + anyone that would do proof reading.
This would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. Jesus Christ, I wasn't aware that publishing industry is so fucking grim.
It's impossible to live from that.
>>47516727
>turning a man into a baby so you can murder a baby isn't an act of hubris
>>47520464
Good, let it all come crashing down let it all burn
Death to RPGs
Chronicles of Darkness core rulebook lists down "services" like "Athletics: Personal trainer" for +3, "Intimidation: Anti-interrogation training" for +3, and "Socialize: Elocution consulting" for +1.
What do these actually do? Do you just pay for them and get the bonuses forever?
>>47520651
Killing someone is an act of hubris.
>>47521656
No, you get the bonus to the associated rolls for a set amount of time. Usually a chapter or, at most, a Chronicle.
>>47522349
Where is the rule on this?
>>47521978
Even in self-defence? When Morality will go and STAY go?
Normally I lurk. Lurk like motherficker. But now I don't have time. Is there collected compelled data about deviant. Thanks in advance.
>>47521978
Even if you kill spmeone without use of magick?
>>47522771
If anything self-defense is a bigger sin against Wisdom than murder, since Wisdom is more about self control and well-considered actions than anything resembling human morality.
Murder in self defense, which rather by definition is an impulsive and unplanned action, would logically be a harsher sin than just regular old murder, which itself would be a worse sin than premeditated murder. However murder itself, no matter how well planned, would always be a sin, due to Wisdom's other angle (limiting your control over others).
Logically speaking, anyway. I'm not saying Wisdom actually followed through with that as-written (since it didn't follow through with much of ANYTHING; it's really barely a system and up there with Humanity for laziness, very disappointing after Harmony), but there you go.
>>47522849
>limiting your control over others
>wise
>more about self control and well-considered actions than anything resembling human morality
Nah, Morality is still showing.
>>47522898
Morality has no problems with changing someone for the better.
Wisdom does.
>>47522807
You lurk for something that didnt exist and you fully realize it. And then you find it you mind goes SNAP and you half-awaken go to a special state medical facility where good doctors have a chance to find out what causes you mind altering state. Because its not madness. They figure it out while "caring about" other visitors. You are not the first here.
>>47522912
>Morality has no problems with changing someone for the better.
Of course it does. It's violence over someone free will to do so. That's why Wisdom is so shallow - it's just the Morality recolored.
>>47522956
Feeding others is good for morality and bad for wisdom.
>>47522956
>Of course it does.
Show me. Where on the Morality ladder is "getting your alcoholic dad to stop being an alcoholic" as a sin?
>>47522923
sheet..
>>47522969
Where is it sin on Wisdom ladder?
>>47520268
So? Still the name people will write down. Hell, I asked my mom and she named Gandalf immediately, then the Sorcerer's Apprentice ("he's a wizard") and then someone called the White Wizard who I'm pretty sure she means Gandalf again. She only knew Constantine from the Keanu Reeves movie and just barely (the show was canceled for a reason, no one is going to remember it).
>>47520464
Pretty sure they're paid 2¢ a word to 5¢ a word, and the book is maybe 82,000 words (copying all the text gives me 83,595 including titles, page numbers, legal text, credits, and any words split by the PDF, so we're being conservative). So split four ways evenly (and I doubt it was), that's 20,500 words at 3¢ a word for 615$. That's actually just a one and done deal, too, none of these people work as a direct part of the company, not even Dave. It's not a way to make a living. You have to be doing concurrent writing for multiple sources to break even on your time and make at least minimum wage, and most writers are expected to have a day job. This is more of a side-income thing or people who are already good at and enjoy the writing.
Chris for instance works in the publishing industry as an editor of magazines, and as we've seen from his posts here, he'd be doing a lot of this stuff anyway and getting paid for it is a pretty good bonus.
Worth noting, but I don't think Playtesters actually get paid.
>>47522991
>Forcing a sapient being (whether a Sleeper, spirit, or anything else) to act counter to its interests, altering its nature long-term, or binding it to a task all risk degeneration,
>altering its nature long-term
Anything that causes a long-term change in a sapient being is a Wisdom sin. Doesn't matter if it's a change for the better or worse.
>>47523008
>Pretty sure they're paid 2¢ a word to 5¢ a word
Can we have ascension rules? I have 10bucks.
>>47522771
>>47522817
>>47522849
>>47522898
>>47522912
>>47522956
>>47522968
>>47522969
>>47523010
Just because "Morality" is no longer the core morality system doesn't mean that being immoral is now somehow acceptable. Wisdom still has aspects of morality because being immoral is in many ways still hubristic. Wisdom IS a morality system, it's just a different one. The morality of a Mage is that killing someone in self defense is worse than killing someone through premeditated murder, because premeditation means planning and careful consideration (usually) while self-defense is panicked and shows that your plans fell apart.
I also feel like you're misinterpreting "you can't stage an intervention for alcoholism" while also once again forgetting that all Breaking Points are not instant drops. This is like the argument that someone who's Wisdom 10 can't make coffee with magic or they fall instantly to being evil. It shows a borderline, bad reading of the rules and text.
>>47523101
Honestly - i didnt read mage at all. Not ascension, not 1e, not even 2e. Im arguing with on the base of my assumptions only.
>>47523010
>to act counter to its interests
I'm pretty sure getting alcoholic to stop being alcoholic is in his own interests.
>>47523101
>Wisdom IS a morality system, it's just a different one.
>When Morality will go and STAY go?
http://podcast.darker-days.org/e/darker-days-radio-episode-72/
I am listening to the podcast right now. They're reviewing Beast. It takes them a moment to warm up but when they get going they skewer the game. I am pretty hopeful for the future.
darker-days-radio-episode-72
I am listening to the podcast right now. They are reviewing Beast. It takes them a while to warm up, but when they get going they completely skewer the game. It makes me hopeful for the future.
>>47523173
But I WANT a morality system.
It's a disincentive for my players solving every problem with murder.
>>47523248
And I don't want a morality system, because in real life not all (not even the majority of) people go mad if they lie, murder or steal.
>my players solving every problem with murder
If you let them do it without a consequences, then problem is in your gamemastering.
>>47523294
But morality is not a simulationistic rule, it's a thematic rule. The protagonists of Onyx Path games are the kind of people that go mad if they lie, murder and steal, because that's a genre convention the authors have chosen.
If you want to murderhobo, play D&D.
>>47523294
Yeah, but those consequences aren't always immediately obvious to my players, meaning they will disregard them and continue to act like amoral shitbags
When I tell them they'll literally have to make a fairly difficult check to avoid going a bit more crazy when they choose to implode someone, then they pay attention.
Also there are situation where otherwise there would be no consequences.
Murder a bum for mana, then eat his soul? Without a mortality system, what's the consequence? Who'll care?
>>47523173
Why should it? Chronicles of Darkness games have always been about Morality.
>>47523164
You can also encourage someone to have an interest in something positive. But people would rather jump to stupid conclusions that helping people is bad for Wisdom.
>>47523294
You misunderstand how the morality system works. Also, these are LITERALLY GODDAMNED WIZARDS.
>>47523330
It's really more about what you're willing to do than anything else. And people who lie, murder, and steal are more likely to... lie, murder, and steal. For Mages, at least, being willing to do anything also actually does mean they'll become Mad with a capital M and be driven solely by their Obsessions.
>>47523330
>The protagonists of Onyx Path games are
The protagonists are people players want to play.
>If you want to murderhobo, play D&D.
I don't want to play murderhobo, but I certainly don't want to risk a derangement every time I want to solve my problems in a direct and easy way.
>>47523330
>consequences aren't always immediately obvious to my players, meaning they will disregard them and continue to act like amoral shitbags
You have shitty players with no knowledge of this little thing called "roleplaying". Drop them and find a good ones.
>what's the consequence? Who'll care?
No consequences, because no one will care. What is your problem with it exactly?
>>47523366
>oWoD game have always been about Morality.
And that's why they were shit. Especially Vampire with Paths of Enlightment, created ONLY for being able to finally smack someone down without problems.
>You misunderstand how the morality system works.
The old one or new one? The find I really like about Integrity is that there is no sin ladder set in stone, and you CAN argue that your professional killer does not sob and weep every time he shoot someone down.
>>47523164
That's the "Forcing X to act" clause, not the alteration clause.
And: really? You know what's good for him better than he does? Sounds like hubris, since that's literally hubris.
>>47523412
>That's the "Forcing X to act" clause, not the alteration clause.
Does sending child to bed is act of hubris?
>You know what's good for him better than he does?
...yes? There is a plenty of cases there you DO know that's better for someone than this someone.
>>47523402
>CAN argue that your professional killer does not sob and weep every time he shoot someone down
According to the Devs, murder is always a breaking point.
>>47523372
>The protagonists are people players want to play.
And if you don't want to play the game then no one is forcing you. Just as you can't willy nilly cast 5 dot spells or get shot, you can't murder the hobo and eat his soul because there are mechanical consequences.
>No consequences, because no one will care.
Your character should care. A normal functioning human being would care if they murder a hobo and eat his soul. Normal functioning human beings are not wanton serial killers. And Morality--whatever it's called in the specific gameline in question--is a measure of that. I think that people overexaggerate or create flaws for Beast that it doesn't have, but this is one that it DOES have. So maybe if you just want a game with no Morality, you should play that one instead of the one that's all about the slippery slope to megalomania.
>>47523402
I said Chronicles of Darkness, not oWoD. Also, no, you can't argue that because there's literally a sidebar that says specifically "murder is always a Breaking Point". You also clearly don't understand how Breaking Points (or Morality Sins for that matter) work. You don't "sob and weep" every time you're confronted with a Breaking Point. Go read the book.
>>47523412
Hey, someone actually gets what a Mage's morality cares about.
>>47523164
No, forcing them to stop drinking is in their best interests, but not necessarily their immediate ones. If an alcoholic asks for help getting sober, it's okay. If he asks for a beer and you Mind him into quitting instead, that's the Wisdom violation.
>>47523372
>What is your problem with it exactly?
The character should care, if only because he's losing his grip on reality, and thus his Magic.
>>47523440
>Determining a Breaking Point
>The Storyteller should determine whether a given action or occurrence counts as a breaking point for a character. If the character is player-controlled, then obviously the player should have some input into this process.
>>47523443
>Just as you can't willy nilly cast 5 dot spells or get shot, you can't murder the hobo and eat his soul because there are mechanical consequences.
And that's bullshit.
>Your character should care. A normal functioning human being would care if they murder a hobo and eat his soul.
And there is the case of so-called "roleplaying", the magical force which makes player act like a character, and not kill people for fun and giggles.
>because there's literally a sidebar that says specifically "murder is always a Breaking Point".
Nope, there is not. Even torture is "almost always a breaking point".
>>47523445
>No, forcing them to stop drinking is in their best interests
And that's why mind-control is the best therapy where is.
>>47523484
>And that's bullshit.
That's the game.
Don't like it?
Go play something else.
I hear D&D's still pretty popular.
>>47523534
>Go play something else.
I'd rather change the way this one works, thanks. Just because something is stupid is not reason to leave it alone.
>>47523484
>Note that a breaking point is not necessarily something that the character considers wrong. A character might kill someone in a clear-cut, unambiguous case of self-defense, but the experience is probably still a breaking point, even if the player (and the character) feels the act was entirely justified. Actions take a toll on the psyche, regardless of whether the actions were righteous.
But you're right, the actual sidebar labeled "But my character kills people all the time!" isn't present in the CofD book. Had to save wordcount for reprinting the God-Machine Chronicle parts.
>And there is the case of so-called "roleplaying", the magical force which makes player act like a character, and not kill people for fun and giggles.
And some games have rules specifically to encourage certain types of roleplaying. For instance, when a character is injured, they have mechanical constraints that say they're injured. They also have statistics that determine what they can and can't do. Just as you can't say "I blow his head off" you can't say "I don't feel bad about this at all".
>>47523553
It's not stupid, you just don't understand it and you can't stand one of your numbers being lowered as a consequence of your actions. You seem the type to whine when they take so much as a point of damage.
Nevermind that Wisdom and Hubris are major themes of the game that are reinforced through the mechanics.
>>47523583
>It's not stupid, you just don't understand it
I understand it perfectly well - it is a an attempt to urge players to play it "right".
>And some games have rules specifically to encourage certain types of roleplaying.
And punishing them for other types of roleplaying. In other words - badwrong fun.
>Just as you can't say "I blow his head off" you can't say "I don't feel bad about this at all".
I can blow his head off with a pistol and I can create a character which won't feel bad about it at all. System which actively punishes me for playing it is wrong.
>Wisdom and Hubris are major themes of the game
And as many things - they are subjective. I don't think it is unwise to cure alcoholic though mind control any more than it is unwise to send child to the bed then he wants to play computer games all night.
I think it is much more interesting to let players what they want and deal with consequences. They want to murder? Okay. they want to steal souls and eat them? No problem. They want to feel good about this? They can. That doesn't change the fact that they are playing monsters. If they want to play monsters - why shouldn't they. It just gets boring very quickly (if they don't die before that), and most of them then start playing something more interesting.
>>47523583
>But you're right, the actual sidebar labeled "But my character kills people all the time!" isn't present in the CofD book.
I bet there is reason for that. Maybe that reason is that people can kill other people and don't feel anything about it. Like it was most time in human history.
>>47523682
>I think it is much more interesting to let players what they want and deal with consequences.
Isn't that the whole crux of this argument? You're arguing that there shouldn't be a specific consequence to being a murderhobo and some other anon is arguing that there is indeed a specific consequence to being a murderhobo.
>>47523797
>You're arguing that there shouldn't be a specific consequence to being a murderhobo
There is no need for a specific consequence to being a murderhobo, because being a murderhobo without sufficient powerlevel always lead to players untimely demise. Often pretty quick.
>>47523720
No no, psychopaths don't feel anthing when killing someone. A normal person will be haunted for months to years. You know why breaking points are the toll on your psyche.
>>47523920
So most of medieval warriors were a psychopaths? You seem not to understand that modern morale isn't universal one, and killing other people is mostly the morality thing. If you don't consider your enemy as human and equal, you won't have any problem killing him.
>>47523948
If you honestly, earnestly believe that warfare has ever been anything but psychologically damaging for the survivors, you should definitely consider another game. FATAL maybe.
>>47523583
They actually kinda replaced it with pic related, which I think gets the point across better.
>>47523948
Considering we don't have those people to talk to, but we have at least 100 years of conflicts and the people in them to refer to, I can safely call you out on outrageous bullshit, especially since you specifically reference an age and people that no one can actually speak for.
>>47523972
I honestly, earnestly believe that the only thing which is psychologically damaging is your own inability to rationalize your actions.
>>47524014
No problem. Is killing people is problem for ISIS ? No - in their own mind, they are killing infidels. You may call them psychopaths, but they can will just call you an deviant. Morality is subjective, and I see no reason to punish players for killing an imaginary person.
>>47523948
Have you thought about playing warhammer? its moral beliefs are closer to your, maybe even join chaos. Because you are a fucking idiot who does not understand the human psyche.
>>47524041
They would be sociopaths not psychopaths, slight difference. Being a psychopath is not a title given its a mental affiliation.
>>47524041
>No - in their own mind, they are killing infidels
>>47524041
Considering no one has taken any of them aside for psych evaluations to see what the long term psychological damage they have, you are once again full of shit.
What you want is no drawbacks to something that is known, and proven repeatedly, to fuck with a person in the long run.
Yes, a percentage of people are capable of rationalizing, digesting, and resisting the worst effects that lethal combat has, but that is not the majority of people.
>>47524095
>They would be sociopaths
They are formed their own society and it works. Even attracts likewise-minded people. Sociopaths can't work together, unlike those people.
>>47524129
>proven repeatedly
Nah, because it is proven repeatedly for people of one culture mostly.
>Yes, a percentage of people are capable of rationalizing, digesting, and resisting the worst effects that lethal combat has, but that is not the majority of people.
And since when we are playing "the majority of people"? I thought we were playing exceptional individuals with supernatural experience.
This is an alignment argument in edgier clothing.
Like D&D, WoD conforms the Western morality of its creators. Within WoD, this morality is objective. WoD is not meant to be a platform for philosophical discuss. If you don't want to play according to WoD's objective morality but according to your own instead, feel free to change the rules to best suit whatever you believe.
>>47524162
>I thought we were playing exceptional individuals with supernatural experience.
Being exceptional in one area doesn't mean you are in all.
>>47524206
Basically, this.
Time to walk away.
>>47524048
What the fuck is even the point of that .gif? The text covers up just about the whole damn thing, and even without that it's length renders the movement meaningless anyway.
What's the fucking point?
>>47524206
Show me the major differences between 'Western' and 'Eastern' morality.
>>47524318
Fine, it doesn't conform to Western morality, it conforms to the very specific morality of its creator.
I'm not about to argue about morality with someone on the internet. I'm not going to show you anything. The point remains the same, WoD was designed with a specific sort of morality in mind and within the setting, this morality is objective.
>>47524334
You've already been arguing morality with someone on the internet. You've just been losing the argument and now you're in a tailspin.
>>47523030
That's 333 words of Ascension material. What would you even do with it.
>>47524376
That was my second post in the thread. This one's my third.
I'm just poking my head in to point out that these are the same arguments that you read in a typical D&D alignment thread.
>When will Morality go and stay go
They already made Beast. Seriously, Beast had no actual Morality system to speak of aside from ST fiat.
>>47524405
Rub it all over my body and pretend i am mage.
>>47524430
Well using your powers by spending satiety did tend to drive people mad and turn them into Heroes
>>47524318
Western morality is heavily influence by the 3 Abrahamic faiths, with the ideals of acting according to the behavior espoused reinforced with the threat of punishment from a supreme judgmental entity, while Eastern morality generally relies on social ostracism to reinforce "proper" behavior.
Ungainly simplified, but there you have it.
