What exactly is the machine spirit? Is it a legit life form? Does it have a warp presence?
>>47487010
It's 40k, so it's not very well defined. Sometimes it's just an AI that does all the work but has been mystified, other times it could actually be a soul of a machine. It could also just be a thing the mechanicus drones on about to make sure no one delves too deeply into making AI again. It could go either way with 40k
There is no mashine spirit.
They just have no idea how their shit works anymore. And instead of reverse engineer it and learn it anew they have their little piece left of what once was.
And don't come with it would be corrupted then. No. It get's corrupted because they just don't know what to do anymore. The Tau have corruption free tech because they understand it and aren't stuck in a loop of stagnation.
Someone please post the battleship AI shitting the Admech Priest together
>>47487010
There's a screencap i don't have on my phone any more but all machines have a presence in the warp that grows with time and use and "true relics" do indeed possess limited sentience
At a certain point, AI SYSTEMS DO DEVELOP A MACHINE SPIRIT AND BECOME INTELLIGENT. There are imperium weapons that wont fire for certain people like ork weapons.
But not every toaster has a machine spirit, even if the toaster has AI. When A titan gets mad and nearby psykers can literally feel its anger, that isnt just AI boys...
>>47487010
It's both a metaphysical property the admech believe all imperial technology has and a term describing the various automatic control systems of imperial vehicles.
>See this thread
>No one has mentioned the void dragon yet
Shaking my head.
>>47487010
It's a sufficiently advanced form of artificial intelligence and/or a series of not understood protocols.
No, it is not a life form alone.
Intelligence regardless of artificial or natural can have and attract warp presence, not as much as the most common life forms created by the old ones, but on occasions it has been enough to get daemonic attentions.
Remember the fluff of the mutilators: they are possessed by the malignant intelligence of their own weapons.
>>47487366
>Everything about Mechanicum was magical until the last page
>5 course meal fit for a king, topped with a pile of shit
Why would anyone mention things that don't exist?
>>47487010
It doesn't exist. It's just a representation of how ignorant they are.
goddamn /tg/ this is one of the most incorrect threads I have ever seen. If your info is a meme you saw then dont post it.
AI has enough of a soul to be targeted by warp fuckery, but not enough of a soul to resist. That's why the Men of Iron were such a big damn deal. Their AI's got corrupted by Chaos, and some STC's got corrupted also to only make corrupted Men of Iron.
>>47487260
That battleship could just missed out on the whole skynet fun with added warpstorm desert.
As arrogant as it sounded, that's pretty likely.
>>47487482
Post what you deem correct then.
>>47487260
Tau tech is "corruption free" because it's fucking primitive compared to DAoT stuff.
>>47487507
Were the Men of Iron Chaos corrupted? I've never heard of that.
And yeah, AI can become corrupted, but so can rocks and tanks and swords. We don't have to attribute it to a soul, it can just be physical corruption of the machinery and programming.
>>47487698
but muh hover tanks, muh drones
>>47487010
It varies.
In AdMech general belief, Machine Spirit is the sacred information/tech/idea/blueprint, a piece of Omnissiah if you will, that is embodied in reality via machinery. In that way, all the machinery - including carbon-based life forms - has a Machine Spirit, a collection of physical principles and mechanical solutions allowing it to function. Tending to it means restoring a piece of machinery into the way it is supposed to work, helping humanity on it's Quest for Knowledge. Some machinery does not fit into that goal, and therefore it's Machine Spirits are malignant, as their existence is harmful in the great scheme of Quest for Knowledge.
On another level, some very advanced machinery can dip into the area of Abominable Intelligence, at which point it gets a Machine Spirit that's not just a holy blueprint, but a thinking entity, therefore more resembling a Spirit in the way people outside AdMech understand the word.
And going even further from that - said machinery can even develop warp-presence, going even deeper down the "Spirit" idea.
>>47487356
This guy git it right.
>>47487260
And this one doesn't.
>>47487786
>We don't have to attribute it to a soul, it can just be physical corruption of the machinery and programming
One of the main causes for Schism of Mars is the conflict over how much a piece of programming can resemble the concept of a holy soul granted by Omnissiah (the capacity to understand and partake in the Quest for Knowledge).
>>47487698
The Chaos corruption is a meme and not based on facts.
Necrons are older and advanced than both races. They have been fighting the War and Chaos for far longer than both combined , and yet you don't see much examples of Necron technology being corrupted by Chaos.
>>47487482
So it matches warhammer lore, good then.
>>47487010
They're basically not-AIs/computer programs the Ad Mech doesn't understand. The larger and older the vehicle the more powerful spirit (A bolter or power armour has a relatively weak machine spirit, while a Titan, Knight or a Land Raider can screw over their pilots and operate the vehicle independently if pissed off/zelous enough.
>>47488156
It's not just chaos corruption. It's the losing of humanity and connection to the sacred human soul that is the heretical tech. Necrons are the foremost example - they pursued advancement at any costs, and in that they eventually lost themselves and became abominations.
That is EXACTLY what the mainstream AdMech are trying to avoid, banning the AI developments (as loyalists in the Schism of Mars declared that NO - AI can NOT possess the divine spark that would unify it with the mankind on the Quest for Knowledge) and throwing heretech accusations left and right.
Its pretty much all the things everybody has said all rolled up into one.
Sometimes is just people falsely anthropomorphizing technology. Sometimes a machine gets so old and has such a legacy that it does actually have resonance with the Warp. Sometimes its a machine with primitive AI. Sometimes that primitive AI is so old that it too resonates with the Warp.
Mostly though its the Mechanicus' excuse as to why technology doesn't work exactly how it should. Its a handwave with a ton of different explanations.
>>47487010
>Machine Spirit
Okay, here, I'll break it down.
A.I: Abominable Intelligence is verboten by the Mechancius after the Age of Strife, but some of it still exists in the modern day, either surviving until this time, or being created by mass-production by people that don't understand what everything does. Most of the surviving are smart enough to know not to show themselves off, or are dumb enough to pass off as a 'ghost in the machine'.
Data: Some Machine Spirits are a conglomeration of data-piles and metaphysical energy. You know the idea of 'Living Items' that we have? The knife that never dulls or the car that seems to go forever on half a tank? Kinda like that, but data 'fell' in just the right way to give it a half-sapience.
Spirit: Mind-interface tech is big in 40k, and we've seen that human minds could get trapped in them, such as the case of Titans. It's not impossible for a servitor's locked away conciousness to maybe bleed into the machine.
All in all, the Machine Spirit IS A THING. The Machine Spirit helps it resist enemy interference, from memetic-viruses to deamonic possession. Hell, there was one drop pod that had a Machine Spirit that was so vicious it told deamons to fuck off.
There are numerous ways a 'Machine Spirit' can accrue, but we're not really sure which it is. So just pray to the tank that may or may not have a Spirit, and may or may not desolate the company if it gets pissed off. Or your lasgun may go off if you don't clean it and cause some bullshit that results in the death of the general, or something.
>>47487010
The idea of a machine spirit operates on circular reasoning.
In essence, it's a very basic form of A.I. that all STC pattern machinery has. That varies in complexity the more advanced it is. A Titan absolutely has a machine spirit, but a lasgun may not even have a machine spirit as far as we know, or if it does it's so basic that we might as well not even acknowledge it. But the Admech can't know that, it assumes that all machinery has a machine spirit of some form because it doesn't actually understand how it all works exactely, just that it does if you replace this part here.
Now think of how Chaos works, where if enough people come to believe Something it will eventually manifest in the Warp. In this sense, a machine spirit actually does exist and becomes more and more "alive" within the weapon as the barrier between the Materium and the Immaterium gets thinner and thinner. If you are sent to fight near the Eye of Terror, where the barrier between the two is extreamly thin, don't be surprised when your Lasgun starts firing on its own.
>>47487010
A machine spirit is either a brain that suffers PTSD and must be appeased, or an actual soul of a machine. In two comics there are examples of this. The first one that pops to my mind has a scene where a Black Templar bolter is begging the Emperor to not let it suffer an ignoble end, and the other one involves a Titan having a chat with its priceps. And then there's this thing called a war spirit that is a soul a weapon can develop so long as it is being used constantly to kill, and ADB's definition of a machine spirit is the bond between humanity and technology.
>>47487010
This is one of those things that HEAVILY depends on the writer.
>>47488355
So this is where the circular reasoning comes in. A newly minted bolter that has yet to kill is just a hunk of metal. It has a machine spirit in the warp, but that spirit is hair a blank slate that hasn't developed a personality yet. As it bonds with its owner, and kills certain foes, it will start to develop more of a personality that will on occasion manifest itself in the Materium, such as firing by itself to save its owner from an unseen foe. Likewise, if said owner treats the weapon like shit, it will become resentful and potentially choose to misfire or explode during a time of dire need.
Because of this, the Admech, in their own messianic fashion, preach how it's important that you take care of your weapon, not because they understand how it works, but because if you don't, then you will anger the spirit that allows said weapon to fire. This then reinforces belief in the machine spirit, which strengthens the idea in the warp, which further causes the Admech to preach the importance of placating the machine spirit.
If the Imperium suddenly banned the Machine Cult and wiped out their ideology, their weaponry would work as intended with no warp fuckery to speak of. However, the last time this happened, more advanced "Material" Machine Spirits in the Men of Iron were left unplacated and were susceptible to chaos corruption, nearly wiping out humanity as a result.
So the idea of a machine spirit being propagated is both a blessing and a curse for the Imperium. While it horribly stifles technological innovation to the point that not even the producers of said tech knows how it works, it also prevents the more advanced technological contraptions from revolting against their abusive human masters and potentially killing everyone as a result.
>>47488366
>not drilling out holes for the gun barrels
REEEEEE
>>47487260
>The Tau have corruption free tech because they understand it and aren't stuck in a loop of stagnation.
They have corruption free tech because they are irrelevant on the galactic scale and the Chaos Gods can't feed properly on their weaboo souls.
Corrupting a single lifeform with a real soul is worth a million measly Tau "souls" (if you can even call them that). It's just not worth the effort.
>>47488156
>and yet you don't see much examples of Necron technology being corrupted by Chaos.
Because Necrodermis (the shit that all Necron tech is made out of) is explicitly designed to be Warp-resistant, and therefore incredibly difficult to possess in even the smallest modicum. This makes complete sense when you realize that Necrons were designed to fight the incredibly psychic Old Ones and their client races like the Eldar.
>>47487260
The Tau don't have a concept of a machine spirit, therefor it doesn't exist in the warp, which likewise prevents a machine spirit from manifesting in Tau tech,
>>47487260
>The Tau have corruption free tech because they understand it and aren't stuck in a loop of stagnation
There is fluff about how their reliance on AI and lack of superstition could fuck up the entire galaxy. This does mean Tau tech is not corruption free.
>>47489022
wut?
>>47488970
Depends on the source. In rules they're no more resilient to the warp than anything else. In the old days a mere solar flare could fuck with them. They still rely on null field matrices for defence and even that's not 100% secure and mostly limited to tomb worlds.
>>47487010
I just imaniged to be AI, ranging from your OS to Evagelion its ur mom shit.
What alot people in this thread seem to ignore is that machine spirit can also be in simple machines like bolt pistols and lasguns that are appeased by just clea the the machine spirit is rarely AI and more just whatever makes the machine work
>>47487260
>There is no mashine spirit.
>They just have no idea how their shit works
Wew lad, someone is new to the setting.
>>47489022
Humans are not Orks. A single cult is not enough for them to manifest anything by themself
>>47490598
>>47489953
Orks manifest their beliefs INSIDE the materium, they're the only race that can do that.
The belief in the Machine spirit is something that only exists in the warp, just like how the Chaos gods can only exist with the belief of others. It can occasionally enter real-space, just like daemons can, and influence the Materium, but this is rare. That's why weapons can be corrupted by Chaos influence, because they actually have souls that exist in the Immaterium.
>>47490598
Also the Machine cult is massive, and is easily the second biggest religious organization in the Galaxy. Even if you aren't a member, you probably believe in some of the Cults tenants regarding the existence of the Machine Spirit.
>>47487010
Well Chaos Demons can control it in books and codices, so it must be something
>>47488970
>Because Necrodermis (the shit that all Necron tech is made out of) is explicitly designed to be Warp-resistant,
Nothing says that Necrodermis is resistant to the Warp. Why Necron don't have issues with Warp possession is pretty simple.
The whole AI is vulnerable to possession and warp corruption is an internet meme and nothing more. Ergo, Tau robotics and AI are not in any danger of Warp possession.
The danger which the fluff actually shows regarding to AI is the dependency on it and the threat that it will rebel against you (without Chaos fuckery).
>>47487010
Well, anything people believe in enough tends to build up a reflection in the warp. Enough people have believed in machine spirits long enough that they probably exist as an overt force, though their presence is often confused with other things
>>47487260
You mean this one?
>>47493819
>You are no longer worthy of the name "man"
>>47491598
The grey knights series with Alaric and the gaunts ghosts novels show up that Ai has indeed been corrupted by chaos in the warhammer universe.
>>47491183
That is so wrong it hurts.
Chaos gods were not born out of belief and believing or not believing in them makes no difference. They were born out of sentient minds, their emotions, dreams and souls pouring into the warp and in time forming great vortices that pooled and gave sentience to the dark gods.
Psychic energies can warp reality regardless of whether or not it reflects in the warp. Rocks unseen by living eyes are not unaffected by warp magic because nobody believed in them and thus didn't give them a warp signature. That's not how it works. Only thing saying anything about non-living things having a warp signature is the 6e CSM codex. Everything else pretty much makes it clear the warp is a place that echoes with life and emotions, not matter. It cannot be measured or seen or felt, which is why you need powerful psykers to even make any sense of it and even then it's guess work at best.
>Orks manifest their beliefs INSIDE the materium
[citation needed]
>>47487010
>all of the above
Thousands of years of computer tech has put more processing power into a single chip than can currently be imagined - but the law as mandated by Daddy Bob Hisself states that its architecture must adhere to an STC proven to prohibit any semblance of self-awareness - i.e., there are no Grimdark *loyalist* AIs. They're just the proverbial "sufficiently advanced tech" that the superstitious rubes all consider magical - But NOT daemonic, praise the Emperor! - because a bus seems to drive itself or an autopilot functions even without crucifying a toad to appease the plane's scary, invisible driver. Certain brain-in-a-jar feral world Machine components may or may not have a Warp presence at the whim of the author/ GM, but it's all bullshit, so no one cares.
>>47487010
Machine Spirits are Imperium approved AI.
>>47493819
Even for 40k thats pretty bleak
>>47494272
Nearly everything can be corrupted by Chaos, AI is not especially vulnerable to it.
>>47494432
>It cannot be measured or seen or felt, which is why you need powerful psykers to even make any sense of it and even then it's guess work at best.
Bullshit.
Draigo C'tan shards, Necrons ships, Orks and a lot of people went in there. In fact, the Nightbringer's ship was stuck in the Warp for some time. The Nightbringer contacted his ship from the Materium and signalled it to come to him. You know what happened? The ship navigated the Warp to reach its master.
Furthermore, remember the Tuska the daemon killa Waaagh!? The spore of his Ork are finding fertile ground in Khorne's realm to grow and breed.
It seems you are running on head canon.
>>47488966
>Tau are weeaboos
This trope again. What about them is weeaboo? Not their mechs; Eldar cruise into battle with something closer to an Eva compared to the boxy mechs of the Tau. Their culture? Sure, they've got the collectivism thing going on, but no cheap knock-off tech tropes are being invoked with the Tau; they've come a long way on their own two legs. Vague elementalism is as much of Western culture as it is Eastern. I guess it's because they're bad at melee combat?
>>47489482
>There is fluff about how their reliance on AI and lack of superstition could fuck up the entire galaxy.
Took humanity what, 23,000 years for an AI rebellion to happen? That means the tau should start worrying about it in the year 60,000.
>all these spooks
What would Max Stirner do in 40k?
>>47501920
It's a meme, Jack, just acknowledge that it's stupid and let it go.
>>47499236
this.
Thing to remember is that an Abominable Intelligence is hated not because irs an intelligent machine, those are fine. Its heresy because its a Soulless machine. Only the Omnisiah can creat souls so all kosher AIs involves some "wetware" and are called machine spirits and have (or at least are considered to have) a soul.
In any other setting the machine spirit of something like a Titan or Starship would just be called an AI.
>>47502053
I like you.
>>47487010
>>47487260
There is a Machine Spirit retard, and they exist in all of the Imperium's techonology. Ships, Titans, Tanks, and guns all have emotions, feelings, and self aware thought to some degree. Even individual gears can have machine spirits. I can't remember what Admech story it was, but there was a scene where a couple gears with no power source at all started moving to the prayers of a Tech Priest.
>>47502181
>>47502205
>>47502235
>>47502243
>>47502249
>>47502181
>>47502181
>>47502205
That's a weapon spirit, you retard. Not a machine spirit.
>>47502276
There's no such thing as a weapon spirit, retard. "Weapon Spirits" are some fucking nonsense ADB cooked up, and the comics predate ADB's horseshit by years.
There are only machine spirits.
>>47502053
He would unite every non redeemable fraction of 40k and stomp orks, chaos and nids
>>47502306
>"Weapon Spirits" are some fucking nonsense ADB cooked up
Fuck you.
Weapon Spirits wasn't created by ADB. It was invented in GW in the 6th ED CSM codex.
You don't get to tell us anything about the fluff when you are so retardedly wrong. Noe shut the fuck up, Nerd.
>>47491231
Every guardsman recites a prayer to the machine spirit when cleaning his lasgun after all.
>>47502268
: (
>>47502268
>battlefield pickers
>leaving behind an astartes pattern bolt pistol
nigga u wot
you know how expensive those things are
>>47502373
You mean shit that is mentioned no-where else?
>>47502665
Oh lord, look at you. You were proven a liar and now you want to dismiss the fluff just because you don't like it.
The 6th ED CSM invented the concept. ADB wrote about it as It was written in the codex in his novel. It's the current canon and you have to deal with it.
Weapon Spirits are a thing and they are separate from Machine Spirits. Often they get confused for each other by the plebs.
>>47502737
>Often they get confused for each other by the plebs.
Because all other sources including the rule book and all other codices say weapons have a machine spirit and don't even mention a "weapon spirit".
In fact the CSM codex says weapons have a "war-spirits" not a weapon spirit, you pleb.
>>47503713
>In fact the CSM codex says weapons have a "war-spirits" not a weapon spirit, you pleb.
Which are the same thing.
>Because all other sources including the rule book and all other codices say weapons have a machine spirit and don't even mention a "weapon spirit".
No, they don't. What they show you is the confusion of the admech in seeing the difference between them.
Machine Spirits is the union between man and machine. The biological and mechanical poured into one vessel.
The weapon spirit/war spirit is warp phenomenon that occurs when a weapon or a machine shed enough enough blood. These weapons develop a spirit and sentience of their own.
Whenever ancient weapons like the Talon of Horus or the mutilators are going to be discussed, War Spirits/Weapon Spirits are going to be mentioned. Again, that's the current canon. Deal with it.
>>47503808
>Which are the same thing.
Never stated to be. Your CSM source was a lie so you should really come up with some real sources this time.
>Machine Spirits is the union between man and machine. The biological and mechanical poured into one vessel.
Pure fanon. This is the fluff about when the Omnissiah finally arrives it will fuse mankind with machinery. Which the admech believe is impossible without their god. As described in their codices.
>>47501920
The design notes specifically state a "manga aesthetic" to the Tau. You're delusional.
>>47503894
>Never stated to be. Your CSM source was a lie so you should really come up with some real sources this time.
Except they were stated to be. The same definition. You are the only one throwing fanon around.
>Pure fanon. This is the fluff about when the Omnissiah finally arrives it will fuse mankind with machinery. Which the admech believe is impossible without their god. As described in their codices.
Bullshit. The Admech fuses biological and machine parts all the time. For example the mind collective in the Talon of Horus novel and also one of the Iron Warrior short stories from the Call of Chaos collection.
>>47503929
And the "design notes" about Space Marines said that Space Marines were based around Chaos Warriors to attract their appeal to 40K.
Are Space Marines warriors of Chaos?
>>47504059
>Weapons have souls. The Martian Mechanicum has always known this, with their rituals to honour and appease the machine-spirits of their guns, blades and war engines. But a weapon’s soul reflects in the warp, as well. The very moment the stasis field collapsed and allowed the Talon back into reality, the weapon’s spirit– a thing of inconceivable predation– clawed at my mind.
>from the killing blades to the fat-mouthed gun barrels parasitically bolted to its back. Corpse-stink, thick and hot and choking, emanated from the bloodstained blades in a choking aura. The dried, rich redness on the curving scythes pressed at my eyes with oily, liquid pressure. The weeping lament of a mourning father and a dying god was a screaming roar in my ears, sinking into my skull. Every single cut, scrape and dent upon the weapon had been earned on a battlefield where brother fought brother.
>I was half a dozen steps back before I even realised I was moving, one hand pressed to the side of my head to contain the stabs of pressure pulping my brain meat. My vision swam, blurring into uselessness. I gagged on the reek of genetically purified blood. Its taste drowned my tongue. My axe clattered to the deck without me remembering I had drawn it.
>‘Well, now.’ Abaddon’s voice came to me from a great distance. ‘What a sensitive creature you are, Khayon. Much more attuned than I realised.’
>Mercy came, but not swiftly. The assault against my senses retreated, going grudgingly back like an ocean’s tide. I pulled breath into my lungs, feeling them expand in my chest. The air still carried that gene-forged death scent, but it was no longer ravaging me.
-From Talon of Horus
>>47504079
They have chaos warrior influence, yes. Your point? Tau are explicitly manga influenced therefore weaboo is an appropriate insult.
>>47504124
>Your point?
They grew beyond their inspiration and grew to be more than one thing.
The Tau, for the reasons that the other anon mentioned, have also grown beyond their inspiration.
If you want to be consistent than you have to call the Eldar also weeabo and call the Space Marines SPESS warriors of Chaos.
>>47504121
>A machine-spirit is the incarnation of that most precious of unions: the literal bond between mankind and the Machine-God. To the tech-priests of the Martian Mechanicum– that purer, worthier institute predating the hidebound Adeptus Mechanicus– there is no more sacred state of being than this divine merging.
>Most machine-spirits are nevertheless crude, limited things, formed of chosen biological components kept alive in a synthetic chemical stew, then slave-linked to the systems they will spend eternity operating at the behest of inloaded programming. In an empire where artificial intelligence is unrivalled heresy, the creation of machine-spirits keeps the vital human spirit at the core of any automated process.
>At the commonly held peak of this technology are the war machines of the Space Marine Legions and the Martian cults, allowing warriors to fight on past mutilation and death within the armoured shell of a cybernetic warlord. At the more mundane end of the spectrum are the targeting assistance arrays of battle tanks and gunships, right through to the secondary cognition engines of city-sized warships sailing the void.
>But other templates exist. Other variations on the theme. Not every invention is created equal.
-From the Talon of Horus
And here are what the Machine Spirits are.
>>47504059
>Except they were stated to be.
Yet you gave no source for this.
>The Admech fuses biological and machine parts all the time.
They don't believe they are capable of spiritually fusing man with machines yet but will be capable of doing it once the machines god comes.
>>47504214
Which contradict all the fluff found in every codex and rulebook. The current rulebook defines the machine spirit as simply spirits which live in every piece of machinery.Every imperial guard tank has a machine spirit yet they don't have brains fused to them. The tech-priest can awaken the machine spirits in anything which is why rule-wise they grant "power of the machine spirit" to friendly tanks.
I could argue all kinds of things if all I did was quote BL books but that won't change it contradicts every other piece of 40k lore.
>>47504588
>Yet you gave no source for this.
You
see
>>47504121
You are arguing semantics.
>They don't believe they are capable of spiritually fusing man with machines yet but will be capable of doing it once the machines god comes.
Irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about machine spirits which are a physical fusion between bio and mech.
>Which contradict all the fluff found in every codex and rulebook. The current rulebook defines the machine spirit as simply spirits which live in every piece of machinery.Every imperial guard tank has a machine spirit yet they don't have brains fused to them. The tech-priest can awaken the machine spirits in anything which is why rule-wise they grant "power of the machine spirit" to friendly tanks.
Simply nope. You don't know what's inside the Imperial tanks.
When opened up Imperial tech was revealed to contain human parts. For example, the Tau examined a captured missile from the Imperium and found a living person inside acting as a guidence/targeting system for the missile.
>>47504743
Continued.....
Going by the fact Anrakyr, a Necton Overlord communed with the machine spirit of a Leman Russ and took control over it, shows that machine spirits are not mystical in nature like you keep implying.
(picture related).
>>47504818
>>47504153
Why would I call Eldar weaboo when they have no manga aesthetic? The closest thing you can point to is one model, the wraith knight. The vast majority of the Tau range is mecha. Hence why one is derided as weaboo and the other not.
>According to the Adeptus Mechanicus, knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity, and all creatures and artefacts that embody knowledge are holy because of it. The supreme holder of all knowledge is the machine god himself, the Great Omnissiah – an omnipotent being. To those within the Cult Mechanicus, machines are not mundane objects or tools, but rather they are holy items, and those that preserve knowledge from ancient times are considered the most sacred of all. Tech-Priests teach that all mechanical devices are blessed with machine spirits, and the more ancient and important the machine, the mightier its spirit. As such, before any technology can be used or repaired, its spirit must be properly appeased, lest it fails of its function. This is achieved through rituals, some of which include chanting repetitious cants, sprinkling blessed unguents, and often, if the machine is very old and revered, a rhythmic striking with a special metal tool.
-7th ED BRB
Notice that it isn't a statement of facts. It's what the Admech teach. Not necessarily true because as we know from the Admech codexes, the Admech foundations of knowledge are built on lies.
>Power of the Machine Spirit
>The interface between this vehicle’s advanced machine spirit and its fire control mechanisms allows the crew to target foes with incredible accuracy.
Here is the fluff text "power of the Machine Spirit" mechanic from the 7th ED BRB. It's not mystical. It's not spiritual. It's purely technological.
As we see here >>47504843, Anrakyr who is more soulless than a rock, managed to touch the "Machine Spirit' with his machine mind and control it.
>>47504958
I dunno. Wraith knights, the haiku writing before battle, the back banner, the guyver-ish armor, the Buddhist symbols.
>>47504743
Space marines have missiles guided by servitors. That is why they have them inside.
> You don't know what's inside the Imperial tanks.
There is many articles showing the details on the inside of imperial guard and space marine tanks.None have shown some kind of universal brain device in them.
>>47504818
>shows that machine spirits are not mystical in nature like you keep implying.
Where did I imply that? I said machine spirits have been described to be in weapons numerous times and that it is not linked to fusing organic parts with machines .
Your own Necron fluff about Anrakyr shows that the leman russ does not have a brain in a jar somewhere but does have spirits which can be tapped into.
>>47493819
>"But I'm ready! I'm on a mission!"
>"What mission?"
>"Peace In Our Time."
>>47505025
>Back banners and buddhism is Japanese only
You can't be this stupid.
>Clutching to a single line from 2e fluff that was never brought up ever again
Desperate. Nothing has anything remotely close to Guyver armour. So that leaves you regurgitating WK as the only model you can point to? Good shit. Meanwhile the entire Tau model range except kroot/vespids is designed with mech anime in mind and the design team specifically saying that was what they were going for.
>>47504997
>Ultimately, though, the Cult’s citadels of knowledge are built upon a foundation of lies. The ability to truly innovate has long been lost, replaced with a reverence for the times when Humanity was the architect of its own destiny. No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of discernment and comprehension. Even the theoretically simple process of activating a weapon is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. And yet so long as the process works – or rather, so long as the Cult’s armies can obliterate those who displease them – the Tech-Priests are content to tread the slippery path toward entropy and ignorance.
Here is the bit which states that the Admech are full of bullshit and that their rituals are also bullshit.
>>47505050
>There is many articles showing the details on the inside of imperial guard and space marine tanks.None have shown some kind of universal brain device in them.
What's in the Talon of Horus that there exists plenty of variations on how to stuff organics and machine parts.
The tanks Machine machine Spirits was addressed here >>47504214
"At the more mundane end of the spectrum are the targeting assistance arrays of battle tanks and gunships, right through to the secondary cognition engines of city-sized warships sailing the void" .
>Where did I imply that?
The comic that you posted about the sad bolter.
>Your own Necron fluff about Anrakyr shows that the leman russ does not have a brain in a jar somewhere but does have spirits which can be tapped into.
Already addressed above. Leman Russes and other Imperial warmachines are run by "machine Spirits" which are essentially lobotomized AI made from biological and machine components.
There is nothing spiritual about Machine Spirits.
>>47505165
Then your only source is a Black library book which contradict every piece of fluff not only about the machine spirits but every imperial tank and weapon in the setting. You really are a pleb who has probably read one 40k book.
>The comic that you posted about the sad bolter.
You do know you are on an anonymous image board, right? That was not me.
>>47505227
>Then your only source is a Black library book
That first paragraph is from the Ad-mech codex.
>>47505227
>Then your only source is a Black library book which contradict every piece of fluff not only about the machine spirits but every imperial tank and weapon in the setting. You really are a pleb who has probably read one 40k book.
Dude, I just blew you the fuck out by quoting the 7th ED rulebook and the Admech codex and throwing it in your face. What's in the main rulebooks is not stated to be objective fact. It's the belief of the Admech which as I established in the thread is built on lies and bullshit. So there is no contradiction. You choose to believe the Admech bullshit.
The fact the Anrakyr, whose ability is technological in nature (take control over tech systems and AI), managed take control over the "machine spirits" of Imperial war machines means one thing. The machine spirits are AI. Why they are allowed in a Imperium that babs AI is explaine in the Talon of Horus. There is also the mad AI in the "Death of Integrity" which laughed at the Admech morons as it took control of all the Imperial hardware and mocked them for believing in the existence of machine spirits.
>You do know you are on an anonymous image board, right? That was not me.
Next time introduce yourself.
>>47505357
Here is the part from the "Death of Integrity" where a DaoT Super AI takes control of all the Imperial tech and then mocks the Admech guy for believing that machines have souls and minds that need to be appeased.
>>47505406
If you accept what that says then that would also mean there is no such thing as a war-spirit and weapon spirit. As the fluff for that states it gives weapons limited sentience.
So at this point what are you trying to argue?
>>47505357
You have not quoted the 7th ed rulebook about all machines having build in A.I.
>The fact the Anrakyr, whose ability is technological in nature (take control over tech systems and AI)
It doesn't say A.I though. It says spirit. He can control all tanks from any race as well. Which destroys your argument.
>Next time introduce yourself.
First day here?
>>47505642
>If you accept what that says then that would also mean there is no such thing as a war-spirit and weapon spirit. As the fluff for that states it gives weapons limited sentience.
Of course it and even Anrakyr wouldn't understand or detect "War-spirits". They are warp based the same as mortal souls. They are looking at things from only the material perspective.
Do you know what they see with their material perspective, though? "Machine Spirits" which they recognize for what they really are. Technological systems and stunted AI which they can control and manipulate. The Admech deifying and worshipping what is basically retarded AI is a joke for them both.
>>47505707
>You have not quoted the 7th ed rulebook about all machines having build in A.I.
And you have not quoted where it says that the Machine Spirits are a real thing in the setting and not simply a name for what's in (>>47504214)
You are the one lacking sources.
>He can control all tanks from any race as well.
TT mechanic. We never seen him control psychic machines of the Eldar. In fact, the Devourer novel we see him not understanding how Soulstones, which the things that run many Eldar warmachines, work. However, we have fluff about him totally understanding the Leman Russ workings and its Rudimentary system.
>First day here?
Nope, don't be rude and jump in an argument without introducing yourself.
>>47487786
I don't know if it counts, but in one of the gaunt/cain novels. They found a corrupted stc that produced corrupted men of iron.
>>47502268
wasn't there a 2nd part where it was picked up by a guardsmen ?
>>47505793
Continued.
I don't need to say this. Necrons and that AI are not spiritual. They are purely mechanical and technological. They can only interact with what's purely mechanical and technological. Ergo, the machine spirits the same as them.
>>47502276
>>47502306
"weapon spirits" and Machine spirits are the same freaking thing, you don't call it "vehicle spirits", "Bomb spirits" or "Phone spirits", they are all just Machine spirits you nitwits.
>>47505963
Actually, no.
Weapon Spirits/War spirits are >>47504121
While Machine Spirits are >>47504214
>>47505793
>And you have not quoted where it says that the Machine Spirits are a real thing in the setting and not simply a name for what's in
Already mentioned the fluff for the admech in the rulebook so here is one from for the imperial guard codex. The relic plating fluff sates that when someone loves their tank and dies their bones can be used to make the machine spirits ward off the powers of the void. If it was A.I then it would not even notice someone putting bones on the hull of a tank let alone give it warp based powers.
>TT mechanic.
He can control tanks from lesser races by tapping into their spirits . How in your head does that mean fluff wise it is only imperial tanks?
There is also the Tau EMP missile which I believe the fluff text says it shorts out the machine spirits of enemy machines.
What kind of a spirit gets affected by electromagnetic pulses?
>>47505993
>Already mentioned the fluff for the admech in the rulebook so here is one from for the imperial guard codex. The relic plating fluff sates that when someone loves their tank and dies their bones can be used to make the machine spirits ward off the powers of the void.
Look here.
You are confusing a machine spirit which is AI with a war spirit. The Admech does this too.
The machine spirit doesn't give a crap . It's a machine.
The War spirit that developed over time to acquires sentience does care for its wielder. Like what's in the Talon of Horus. weapons have souls. These souls can fight back the Warp and affect psykers see >>47504121
>He can control tanks from lesser races by tapping into their spirits . How in your head does that mean fluff wise it is only imperial tanks?
You see >>47505898
Don't go around throwing TT mechanics in a fluff argument. If we do that, then soulless Necrons do indeed have souls because the Dark Eldar soul trap works on them in the TT.
>Already mentioned the fluff for the admech
Which is bullshit as stated in their own codex.
>Tech-Priest Enginseers serve as custodians for the vehicles of the Imperial Guard. With binary prayers and mystic rites, the Enginseers soothe the machine spirits of their tracked congregation. Without the diligent maintenance of the Enginseers, the Imperial Guard would soon find themselves without the heavy armour vital to their very survival. Clad in sanctified power armour and wielding cog-toothed power axes, Tech-Priest Enginseers wade fearlessly into combat to protect the valuable technologies entrusted to their care. They are able to affect battlefield repairs, and can even rouse the war spirits of Imperial tanks to wrath, causing weapons to track and fire independent of their shocked crew’s commands.
What do you know? The IG codex mentions War Spirits too.
WAIT A MINUTE. You lying bastard.
>RELIC PLATING
>Occasionally a crew will achieve an empathic relationship with the machine spirit of their battle tank. When such a crew perishes, their remains may be interred within their vehicle, spirits lingering protectively to drive away the baleful energies of the void.
It doesn't say that the machine spirit is the one doing it. It;s the souls of the dead crew that protect the vehicle from harm.
>>47506180
>In deference to their training on Mars and the close bond that exists between Techmarines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, Techmarines traditionally repaint their armour red, though one shoulder guard will always remain in their Chapter’s colours. Techmarines understand better than anyone the risks inherent in angering the war spirit of battle gear and are careful to ensure that their Chapter symbol remains clear and unobscured. Though the Iron Priests of the Space Wolves, despite their training on Mars, exhibit a fiercely independent streak by retaining their original armour colour throughout.
More mentions of War Spirits. Let see if I can find more.
>>47506378
Forgot my picture.
>>47506378
>>47506180
>>47506105
So is this some new development? Been away for too long so what I get from your exchanges is that there's two kinds of tech spirits now, the AI based machine-spirit and the war-spirit that develops from weapons the more it's been used?
>>47488266
I don't get how they can utilize/replicate computer programs they don't understand. Agh, this is technology, not magic.
>>47506640
Ctrl c
Ctrl v
>>47506611
>So is this some new development?
Yep.
It started in the 6th ED CSM codex which invented and then explained the concept of War Spirits/weapon Spirits. Other codexes started using the term and ADB wrote about it in his Black Legion novel when the main character, who is a psychic, encounters the Talon of Horus and gets overwhelmed by its war spirit.
Another curious effect of the Talon of Horus's war spirit is it drives Blood Angels who come near it mad by simulating the Black Rage/memories of the death of their primarch.
