![img_1115[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/wtwOqdh.jpg "img_1115[1].jpg")
For whatever reason I have a huge urge to get into a tabletop miniature game. I either want to get into Warmachine/Hordes or 40k as I'm pretty sure there's a local independent game shop that has Warmachine players and there's also an official GW store close to me as well.
Which one is more fun to actually play and which is easier to get started with?
>>47457573
Depends, is your LGFS or GW smelly? Whichever one is the more hygienic should determine which game you play
>>47457659
I've never been to either of them.
>>47457681
You should go and check them out, then. Unless you're playing exclusively with the lads, you will spent time with strangers. Try and find out which of your stores has the least rancid player base. You won't have fun if you're pinching your nose.
>>47457573
With MK3 of warmachine coming out very soon, it's probably the best time/easiest to get into now.
That, and as an ex-GW gamer, your wallet will probably prefer warmachine.
Also you don't get blown off the table turn 1 in warmachine.
>>47457790
This is the correct answer. You can also consider things like whether the people seem cool, which models look best and most fun to paint, which game seems most entertaining, etc. But the smell test is paramount.
b-bump
>>47457790
This is the correct answer.
Really, you try to identify the local groups that play each game, find the one that makes you consider chewing off one of your own limbs to escape them (which is unfortunately a commonality in gaming), and join the other one.
>>47457963
Infantry machine is just as expensive as 40k you dumb nigger. And you're paying more for less. Enjoy your Black Dragons.
I played 40k for 10+ years but finally got out. The game became too expensive and not fun enough. The company (GW) also makes really poor decisions when it comes to releases and rules, and the quality of their models have gotten worse and worse in the past few years (while getting more and more expensive). Unless you really like the background, enjoy Hanna Barbara cartoony looking models and don't care much about the rules I would not recommend.
The systems I enjoy in order of preference are:
Infinity (Cheaper than 40k, cool scifi backsory, really cinematic and exciting rules)
Star wars Armada (Really conveys the feeling that you are commanding massive staships)
Kings of War (Fantasy with no bullshit, maneuvering is important)
Warmachine (Really excited for the 3rd edition, I think it will fix a lot of the crap)
Other systems that are cool but I personally don't love them due to setting/rules/models:
Malifaux
Dropzone Commander
Star Wars X Wing
>>47459125
Except with MK3 Infantry machine is going to be kill, 1-2 units at most with most MK3 lists after the points got leaked, unless you really try and then you're going to lose
>>47457573
Really it depends on the places. I would recommend meeting each group on the most popular nights and getting a feel for them.
Between the two systems, if you like a tighter ruleset or a closer to balanced competitive game Warmahordes, if you want almost complete freedom to do fucking whatever and not give a shit about the game rules/ play more of a fun silly narrative type thing 40k
There are people who try and play casual narrative Warmahordes and Competitive 40k, but the games fail hard in those areas
>>47457573
Do you want the 40k setting? Play 40k. Do you want a proper game? Play WMH.
>>47459409
He can play in the 40k setting without using any GW rule set. They are terrible anyway.
>>47459601
How easy is it to find 40k players who don't use GW's ruleset?
>>47459776
I will wager a lot more easy than ten years ago.
>>47459776
>>47459818
>Buy expensive minis from a company you hate.
>In order to play a different game.
Literally battered housewives.
>>47459976
Who said anything about buying from the company? A month ago for example a friend gived me lots of empire, orcs, beastmen, tyranids and space marines minis for free, and I can use them for other games.
Unless you suuuuuper love the lore/models/etc I can't really recommend 40k from a game play perspective.
Warmachine is a little (little) more thoughtful and has some neat models
Infinity feels like there is a higher barrier to entry though I enjoy it. You could very easily just use "counts as" stuff.
Over all it depends what your other nerds are playing. If they ALL play warhammer well you're going to be playing some Warhammer. If they have a mix, sit in on a game or two.
>>47460007
That's nice, but its not really useful for somebody who is asking for information on which game to get into.
>>47459125
Infantrymachine is over, dumbass.
>>47457573
See how the community is at the LGS. If it seems okay, go Warmahordes.
I honestly can't recommend 40K in good conscience, unless you want to play an unbalanced game where the power of models is entirely dictated by what GW wants to sell more of and fluctuates wildly with each new codex. I still get some use out of my old armies among friends, but if you're just getting into it now? Don't bother, the game is a lost cause at this point and the community is awful.
Warmahordes is just now entering a new edition with a new status quo, so you'd actually be less a of a new guy comparatively, what with everyone having to step back and re-evaluate everything. It's a well designed game with some cool stuff in it. The big con I'd consider it to have is that some of its oldest models are pretty hideous. It probably doesn't have as many outdated models as 40K, but the really old ones are REALLY bad. Luckily, they tend to be things that few people want to use in their armies anyway.
>>47459169
Are you, me?
Just a warning word about warmahordes.
I myself started playing warmahorde maybe 2 years ago after having player GW games for 10 years or so. The rules are tighter than anything GW could produce but do't let people tell that its a perfect game. There are tons of models that never see play because they are just so shit rulewise.
Speaking of models, privateer press models are really a mixed bag, lot's of horrible old models next to some really nice ones. Also expect tons of mold lines. I don't buy their plastics if I can help it as I don't like the mix they are using at all (I play mercs).
Just find out what people arojund you play. There are tons of smaller miniature games with great models/rules (infinity, malifaux and many more). If you find the people to play it could fit your taste better than the big games 40k and warmahordes.
>>47461064
>lot's of horrible old models
I absolutely love the older models. Then again I might be a pewter hipster.
>>47457573
Dont get into 40k right now, its a literal shitshow. Unplayable for alot of people. If you must do 40k, limit it to Kill Team.
WM/Hordes is ok, go check out the playerbase before buying in though. My local group is almost exclusively full blown autists.
Theres also Infinity, and several less popular games. See what other games are popular at your flgs.
Board games like Chaos in the Old World, Zombicide, and a few others can also scratch that itch. Give those a shot too.
>>47459125
Woah, someone woke up on the /b/ side of the bed today.
If you knew fucking anything about MK3 it's that they're toning down infantry and increasing 'jack amounts. And there is no way in hell a beast-heavy legion army costs anywhere close to a games workshop army.
You need to chill dude.
>>47457573
warmachine mk3 is coming in a month and you'll be able to get a starter box containing everything you'll need to play against other starter boxes for like $40, that's pretty much the perfect time to hop in since everyone will be learning the new rules and there should be lots of new blood
>>47457573
I'm in a similar position OP. Been dying to get into war gaming again, but haven't taken the plunge for whatever reason.
>>47457790
Probably your best bet. Find someplace that makes you feel comfortable.
For the lore and setting? 40k any day.
For the gameplay / cost? Eh, you're probably better off with Infinity or Warmachine depending on how popular either is locally.
>>47462256
40k setting is a clusterfuck with barely consistency and canon being a changable thing, plus grimdark and suffering everywhere. I really don't see why people like it so much desu, during the years has lost lot of his charm.
Plus I love the monsternomicon from the IK, and the way magitech is weaved with it is very cool.
>>47457573
Well
>>47457681
Go visit the FLGS first, then the GW.
Rule number 1: On your first visit you do not buy anything, you learn
You learn what you want
You learn how it works
You go home after and do some research
Then pick up what you like and go for it
Also don't play against WAAC faggots ever
Things not to do:
Copy X list of stuff and use it
Asking someone to build you an army
Play whatever wins the most
>>47457963
Right, because the turn 1 warcaster assassin run isn't a thing
Just because you don't like GW for whatever reason(s), doesn't mean you should force everyone else to do the same
Enjoy your new edition that everyone said wasn't needed several months ago, and the lead designer said wasn't going to be made ever under his watch.
Warmachine is going downhill, while with GW new CEO... they stand a chance to be good again.
Oh and in the long run warmachine costs more, but in the short run 11 points of warmachine is cheaper. But no one plays at 11 points, it's 35-50 because HURR money.
>>47462631
After all the shit GW has done and he still will believe them? Dude, do you know about the battered housewife syndrome? This Ceo has squated entire ranges of minis, entire armies too like the brets and the TK.
>>47462631
>Right, because the turn 1 warcaster assassin run isn't a thing
It's not.
>Enjoy your new edition that everyone said wasn't needed several months ago
It wasn't needed, but it is welcome and appreciated.
>Warmachine is going downhill
How so? I mean, the new edition sounds really good from everything I've heard.
I would have to say Warmachine taking into consideration your criteria. You can get into Warmachine with far fewer figures and at a far lower price, and the rules are certainly easier to learn. Speaking of the rules, WMH's gameplay really does trump 40K's in that 40K is incredibly unbalanced and turns take 30 minutes, while WMH has competent designers and all around has better gameplay (Maybe not by a massive margin, but it is hard to be worse than the current version of 40K).
If you were in it soley for models and the setting, then I could recommend 40K as the setting is more indepth and the models generally have more fun options and are kept to a higher standard.
>>47461163
When they still had metal models, it was fine
But went PP went to shitty plastic and upped the prices, while losing detail... they are just GW lite then.
Thank god infinity didn't do that.
>>47462866
>But went PP went to shitty plastic and upped the prices, while losing detail
Which was when? They've generally lowered prices as they've switched to platics. The plastic IFP kit with the UA and options for regular or BDs was like half the combined price for all that stuff when it was metal.
>>47462731
>the new edition sounds really good from everything I've heard.
What is any other game ever that changed editions. I'm sure it looks great now, until you've played with it for a good bit.
Every warmachine player says their game is fine, the rules are good. Now they said new edition is fine. It's like PP can do no wrong by you guys.
And yes, you can first turn kill an enemy warcaster in warmachine, though it's harder at 35-50 points.
>>47462909
>And yes, you can first turn kill an enemy warcaster in warmachine
Maybe with a very specific build if your opponent plays like a retarded baboon.
>>47462909
>What is any other game ever that changed editions. I'm sure it looks great now, until you've played with it for a good bit.
There are loads of games that have benefitted greatly from new editions. Hell, Warmahordes itself greatly improved in Mk2 and all the spoilers about Mk3 sound like it's yet another improvement.
Honestly, it just seems like you're looking for any reason to hate even if you have to invent one.
>>47462909
Mantic second editions is a lot better than the first. You don't seem to know a lot outside GW too.
>>47462171
>Woah, someone woke up on the /b/ side of the bed
>If you knew fucking anything
>You need to chill dude
And you need to kill yourself, you hypocritical newfag.
>>47462909
>What is any other game ever that changed editions. I'm sure it looks great now, until you've played with it for a good bit.
Literally the retarded 40kuckid mindset.
Most games actually IMPROVE when a new ruleset comes along because the creators of the game see a problem with it that they want to fix.
Infinity N3 made hacking good again among a ton of other things.
WMH MK3 is making infantry blobs worse and jacks better, pretty much everything players wanted while nerfing some of the more crazy stuff like BANES.
This isn't 40k where the primary motivation of changing rulesets is literally to sell new models or update the books that require purchasing so they call sell you more overpriced leaflets.
(Note how other games are now doing -FREE- rules, but oh no not geedubs even though their game is a secondary consideration to their HIGH VALUE COLLECTORS HOBBY BITS so having free rules for that would make more sense)
Not to mention these other games listen to their communities gripes unlike GW who deleted their forums back in the day and now only runs their Facebook pages as advertisement echo chambers.
>>47462731
People got major burnout after coming to grips that a lot of the range is effectively unusable and has been unusable for years.
MKIII is looking like being half the same but with some interesting twists.
>>47462768
>then I could recommend 40K as the setting is more indepth
It really isn't.
40K lore is massive. It's expansive, and old, and has something for everyone due to the sheer amount of material in there. It's a kitchen sink science fantasy setting with plenty of black spots there precisely so anyone can fill in the blanks with just about anything.
Immoren is a much smaller, but far more detailed setting. Remember, it was designed as an RPG world - it was designed to be lived in, to be consistent and fully documented. There is a LOT of depth in the Iron Kingdoms setting.
Mind you, I'm not saying one is better than the other. They're totally different types of worlds. 40K has breadth, IK has depth.
>>47462909
Wow, you're retarded.
The rules were good and are good. They weren't perfect, and after years of MKII, some things needed fixing. You're an idiot for assuming that because a game improved, it was broken ass shit before that. Newsflash: MKII, despite having accrued a few nastily effective units that were overall bad for the game, was overall far more balanced and far better as a wargame than any edition of 40K has ever been.
>And yes, you can first turn kill an enemy warcaster in warmachine
You really can't. I mean, I suppose it's technically possible, but only if you build solely to do that and your opponent plays like some kind of utter moron. I'm straining to think of scenarios where a first turn caster assassination.
Also, it's a flat-out lie that Warmahordes is more expensive, especially now that the game is less about infantry. I have a fucking full infantry horde Ret army and I know it's not even three quarters the price of my tournament sized Eldar one.
>>47462866
>Infinity
Corvus Belli has quietly become one of the best studios in the industry. Their infantry models have surpassed FW in terms of detail.
>>47462256
I actually much prefer the Infinity setting. Really cool setting that reminds me of the Expanse (fantastic TV show if you haven't seen it).
Their unit descriptions are cheesy, but the overall universe they built is fantastic, great mix of serious, goofy and cool.
>>47464676
Agreed, and I prefer metal to resin.
>>47464676
>>47465550
Plastic injection is cheap but it is total, total shit for good/sharp details.
CB minis are the best in the market simply for being metal and not being afraid of spindly bits.
asdf
>>47457659
best advise
>>47462909
>What is any other game ever that changed editions.
Warhammer is not every other game.
>>47457573
So here's the thing- Games Workshop's decision makers and rules writers are absolute morons. Don't listen to whatever the employee of the GW twlls you, he needs to push sales hard to not get fired.
Honestly, I own like 7000 points of Orks, and I can't recommend that a person who doesn't love the setting/models get into 40k right now. I loved the setting, but the rules have been going downhill for too long, and I'm fucking fed up.
I'm no real fan of Warmachine. The models are around as expensive as GW on a per-model basis, you just need less. I find their aesthetics wonky as well.
For a total beginner, I'd suggest X-wing. It is cheap as hell and fast to pick up.
I'll chime in for Age of Sigmar.
Their new leadership seems to get it, and a General's Handbook for various manners of play (competitive/points, campaign, etc.) is coming out this summer.
The Start Collecting! boxes by & large are good deals, especially if you shop around on eBay/3rd party sellers like Doc's Discount Games, or whatever sponsors the big podcast in your country.
For now, play battleplans/scenarios with lots of terrain, and use SCGT on www.scrollbuilder.com & don't mind the salty-ass haters.
See which game has the best scene/meta/least obnoxious players in your area.
>>47457790
The people you play with is more important than the system.
Visit the stores and talk to people. Also look for local clubs and do the same there.
>>47457790
>find the least rancid player base
Do this
The Warmahordes people at my local stores are the biggest coalition of douchebags I've ever met at a game store, they think they have some patrician taste and look down at literally every other wargame including historic ones which I thought was weird as fuck. They also all left their models unpainted which clued me in that they were def. WAAC faggots
The Infinity group was nice but just chock full of absolutely disgusting neckbeards, fat, horrible hygiene, and tons of weeaboo shit that was just awful and I had no idea what place it had in the store.
The Warhammer community was larger and much more brotier than both of those games and from what I've read online that seems to be the case pretty much everywhere (certainly in size, in attitude and playerbase I'm sure its a tossup.)
Also check out Bolt Action and Flames of War those guys in my area were cool too and I hear the games are good.
>>47469790
Flames of War is actually really good.
OP, I'd suggest you see what the communities are like for each game. If the Infinity/Warmahordes/FoW ones are bad, just don't bother with anything, unless you're able to bring some friends of your own onto the scene. 40K and AoS aren't worth your time at all.
It's a longshot, but some people may play Dropzone Commander too, which is good. Not really for you if you're looking for a skirmish game, though.
Try something historical.
>>47342022
depending on the scale you can get stuff real cheap. 1:285 scale and 1:72 scale are damn cheap and play nice.
>>47459169
>Doesn't know the difference of model quality and personal preference.
Stay classy /tg/.
>>47457573
40k - Pro´s: fun game. Can be played competitive, but chances are you will be called a rule lawyering cunt if you try this with other people who doesn't play the game RAW.
As for the models, GW offers one of the broadest model range and some of the best multi part plastics out on the market.
Cons: As many has mentioned, its expensive. Or rather, as expensive as you want it to be. Problem being, once you start, you will always want more. Model by model, GW ain't more expensive than anyone else out there.
AoS - pros: Got no rules, so even a 4 year old can learn to play it. Has WoW inspiring models if your in to that sort of things. Is more of a narrative game, where you and a friend builds a story together.
With the launch of AoS, GW once again put proof to the world that they truly are just a bunch of assholes. And as above, this game barely has any rules (take that as you will AoS fans, I know you have the Cards and all, but you still only have 4 pages worth of a "rule book"...). You must have a like minded friend to play, anyone else will just just about everything he owns on the table, and you will loose utterly.
Warmahordes: In difference to GW, who has a miniatures company they have made a game for, Privateer press offers a game with miniatures made for it. This can clearly be seen as well, as to how much better the rules stand. Its a fun game thats on the verge of being good, but its when the clock turns on, and your in tournament mode that this game truly shines! If you like playing tournaments, I highly suggest this game. Downside is that being labeled a "skirmish game" you will soon come to realize that this game also is hugely expensive, with models that lack quality.
Infinity: Also a really great game but on a skirmish level. Awesome models if your in to anime and stuff like that. I haven't played this enough to give it a fair verdict, but I do feel the d20 system, while fun, puts it at to much of a chance.
>>47459169
>I played 40k for 10+ years
>The game became too expensive
This makes no sense, after 10 years you'd already have more than enough models to play with without having to purchase any of the new shit
>>47471638
>Model by model, GW ain't more expensive than anyone else out there.
>https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Varanguard-Knights-of-Ruin
£60 for three models.
>https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Prosecutors-with-Celestial-Hammers
£35 for three models.
>https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Khorne-Bloodbound-Skullreapers
£34.50 for five models.
>https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Stormcast-Eternals-Liberators
£30 for five models.
>https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Khorne-Bloodbound-Scyla-Anfingrimm
£30 for one large model.
Compare this to:
>http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/retribution-of-scyrah/units/houseguard-halberdiers
£34.15 for ten models.
>http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/retribution-of-scyrah/units/house-vyre-electromancers
£20.50 for three models.
>http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/retribution-of-scyrah/warjacks/daemon
£23.90 for one large model.
>http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/retribution-of-scyrah/warjacks/phoenix
£20.50 for one large model.
...
Games Workshop is expensive as fuck, mate. In most instances with them you're actually paying more for less. And you NEED more.
>>47472012
>only compares to AoShit models with the worst possible value
I wonder who's behind this post.
>>47472171
Their newest stuff is an indicative of what their prices are going to look like going forward. Here, lets have some more examples:
>https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Space-Marine-Marneus-Calgar-and-Honour-Guard
Five dudes dor £37.50
>https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Eldar-Wraithguard
Three dudes for £30.
>https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Stormwing
Three small vehicles for £116.
>https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Eldar-Vauls-Wrath-Support-Battery
THIS for £40.
>>47472012
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/retribution-of-scyrah/units/houseguard-halberdiers
$50 for 10
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Tactical-Squad-2015
$40 for 10
Are you even trying?
So, like, out of interest, why the fuck are all the new AoS models so expensive compared to everything else? I don't get it. They're not better models, and you get less of them. What makes this stuff special?
Is this just how GW is doing things now? Are they going to slowly re-release new sculpts for everything at 3x the price?
>>47472410
The real problem is some cool-looking models from gw store are not potent on table.
And they invent even more models which are more powerfull stat-wise.
Else i would play my Thousand Sons forever.
F O R E V E R
O
R
E
V
E
R
>>47472504
It's new ceo things, the one the shills and fanboys are now claiming will save it. The fools.
>>47472504
>What makes this stuff special?
Nothing. At this point, the only customers GW has left are the ones who are stuck with 40k/AoS because their opponents refuse to play anything else, and the diehard fans who will just pay whatever they ask for. So GW might as well milk them for as much as they can.
Oh and i forgot to mention that those new models who are powerfull might be powerfull for 1 year only.
And you tremble before the fear of nerfs for your units. Buffs? Almost never.
CSM player here.
>>47472410
1. The houseguard make up a large portion of a high point army. The tac marines would have to be bought like three times over to do the same.
2. Enjoy that while it lasts. Look at all GW's new models. They're doubling in price per model, often tripling or quadrupling. As soon as a new line of anything appears, that thing will be at ridiculous AoS prices.
>>47472817
Tac marines are fairly new. I guess they pick the price of a new product from a roulette or something, they tend to vary from release to release (though the general trend is up).
>>47472817
But the Ironjaw Ardboyz just came out and price per model wise are the cheapest out of almost any miniature game at $3.50 per model
>>47472926
>But the Ironjaw Ardboyz just came out
Those aren't new models. They're reboxed old ones.
>>47472926
Only if you compare them to skirmish games, Perrys, warlord, Victrix or if you want Mom tend to be or less than one euro to one, one and half if they are big.
>>47472012
Nice cherry picking you did there.
But I get your point, you took the most recent, most expensive shit you could find on GW and thought you where clever. But heres the deal, these models may not appeal to everyone (especially if you don't like AoS and its WoW esthetics), but the quality is that of 3 separate heroes, mounted on demonic steeds.
It would therefore be ludicrous other than to compare it to a, say Privateer press mounted hero figure. But not to get you cherry picking more, I give you the 5 in a box old as hell, resin/plastic (you know, the thing GW did like... 10 years ago).
>http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/the-protectorate-of-menoth/units/exemplar-vengers
And all for the same amount of money. But if you want something in the same scale, and with the details to boot, lets do it more fair, lets take something of Privateer Press better looking cavalry models, such as a lord commander (Warcaster).
>http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/warcasters/lord-general-coleman-stryker
This would greatly out cost the three cavalry models from GW, and even though I dig pp´s style more than GW, I cant deny that those daemon riders would blow that Stryker out of the water in terms of quality.
But I get it, you seem like the typical fanboy who tries to hard, because in truth, privateer press newest are far to expensive (even more expensive than GW) for what they bring to the table in terms of quality. And I say this as someone who actively plays both games.
>>47473324
Okay, one thing to note.
Just looking at them, no huge knowledge of how they play or whatever. The warmahordes guys come in a unit of five, the AoS ones come in a unit of three. And while the AoS guys are definitely amazingly detailed, they are awful models. They're an overdesigned mess of with nothing to focus the eye on and no coherent visual theme. They suck.
>>47472504
>I don't get it. They're not better models,
Well, actually they are. In terms of pure quality, this is probably some of the better plastic multi part kits on the market.
>and you get less of them.
That would depend on the box you buy. A box of Bloodreavers are 20 man strong, while the far more "elite" unit of Wraithmongers are the same price but only 5 guys. This is because GW has put up the price as in "regulars" "elites" "commanders" and so forth, setting the price there after. It is not only a way of measuring power in effect on the table, it is also a means to create economic boundaries for the player. And finally, it is a way to lift things up as to seem "better", both in terms of quality, and the amount of bits you get for every one model.
>What makes this stuff special?
Are you asking "what makes this special to you" or literally "what makes this special" as in terms of financial cost vs profit, as in quality vs other miniature companies and so forth?
Well, first of, personally, I don't give a flying fuck about AoS, Warhammer to me died with the launch of this game. But I can appreciate good models when I see them, and I have a certain love for the WoW look they got going (playing since early Alpha, then Beta, then the game, then several years of expansions.... happy to say I quit 4 years back!).
On the other aspect of it, you do have a company who boldly claims to produce some of the finest plastic multi part miniatures in the world, and I am keen to agree to some degree. Aging from an era of metal blisters and one pose plastic, I have always been star struck by the quality, design and modeling possibilities of GW plastics, but again, this is on a personal level. But I think most will agree, GW knows how to do good plastic models.
Hell, AoS is one of the cheapest games you can play, as you can play with just 1 thing if you want to.
>>47473324
Answer to these dear.
>>47472689
>>47472763
>>47473621
You might want to look into Deadzone. A $40 starter or faction booster is enough to build an entirely viable strike team, and another $40 will buy enough terrain for an appropriately dense board. It's a skirmish game so you don't have too many models to build and paint, and if you want to upgrade to mass battle you can use the models for Warpath.
>>47457573
Warmahordes communities at their worst are generally worse than 40k communities at their worst. In addition, it's generally easier to find a better group for 40k and WMH if the first one you find is shite, since 40k has a larger player base as a whole. (that shitty WMH group might be the only one in the practical area)
It's also worth mentioning that WMH doesn't have much for customization; you can't really have a "your dudes" army like you can in 40k. WHFB, and AoS. Despite their setting being based on an RPG, much every commander in WMH is a special named character with their own model, abilities, and background. The lack of suitable generic customizable leader units is very much an unacceptable flaw for some people who enjoy narrative aspects in their games. (While people would counts-as SCs in 40k, those SCs were far fewer in number and typically not grandly different from a generic leader could do)
In short, be prepared for GAMERS if you get into Warmahordes.
>>47473521
> The warmahordes guys come in a unit of five,
While this is true, go back and look up my remark about GW 10 years ago.
>And while the AoS guys are definitely amazingly detailed, they are awful models.
Again, this is a personal preference. You start the sentence up fine by laying a ground work of the obvious "yes, it has details in plenty", this is fact so to speak. But then you step down the shit hole and continue with your own opinion, but still stating it as facts "the models are awful".
What you meant to say I think is that "And in my opinion, they are awful models". And heres the best part, your allowed to think this! I am willing to accept this statement, because its based on your own interpretation of what a good model looks like! I (as mentioned in earlier posts, like the WoW look) personally think they look badass. I don't play AoS, have no intention of doing so, and as of now I have no reason to get these guys for conversions.
>They're an over designed mess of with nothing to focus the eye on and no coherent visual theme.
Ok, so I know you took this opinion from /tg/ when the models first was released. It might be that you actually think this, but again, its a personal preference (... or is it?).
>They suck.
Oh.. your 12... Well fuck me, you could have told me so earlier on, saved me the trouble of writing all this shit down you still only will cherry pick and failing that, cast insults.
>>47473700
>Deadzone, as in dead game
>Nomen est omen.
>>47473621
Well GW can give you that themselves. They have in fact, as they state that they are first and foremost a miniature company, with added rules. This is why GW don't care much for balance and such. Designer gets a drawing that the board has set upon, he makes the model, and then the writer fix rules depending on how he feels the model looks/feels/is in the fluff. This is why when the old Cold one riders for Dark elves got new models they received -1 movement, because the cold one model looked so heavy.
They answer all this in the previews leading up to the launch of AoS, all cards on the table so to speak. They also take up some of their thoughts on the current population who buys their models
>If you enjoy painting some of the worlds best plastic models, GW will provide this. If you don't, you don't, and GW don't care.
This is basically how they feel for the players out there. They have absolutely no feelings what so ever regarding whiners, and people who don't buy their models, thats about it.
All companies has means to get income. Some "fix" things with new ed. Re-balancing things that was unused to be much better. Others rely on new shiny toys every month. But regardless, money needs to come in, or they wont grow as a company.
>>47473763
Speaking from a design point of view, those models really do... well, suck.
Obviously, opinions.jpg, but there are general rules it's best to follow when designing something. For example, if you have detail, you want that detail to be focused, to draw the eye to certain areas - overdetailing leads to an unfocused final product.
This is why, by the way, the overall design for Chaos Warriors seen here is so incredibly prevalent, so memorable, and so influential. The use of contrast, the sparing use of extreme detail... these are the kind of designs that go on to influence fantasy aesthetics as a whole.
There's no stopping someone from liking the varanguard as models, if they really like a certain look. But they are poorly conceived from a design standpoint, and the overall poor reception to them is indicative of this.
>>47472012
Warmachine players confirmed for suffering from blind hatred.
>>47472706
Age of shitmar wasn't the new CEO
First thing the new CEO did was give us start collecting boxes. We also have FAQ's now thanks to him.
>>47473714
Well, to me its two different sets of experiences really.
You have 40k in one corner, large audience as you say, great models and lots of conversions and so on. All in all a FUN game if you ask me. But I think the rules are at the loosing end of this game. Everything the models and lore makes up for, is the rules.
And while on the subject of "angry geeks", to horrid to play. I must say, most 40k players are horrid when it comes to RAW. If you play it, your a cheat, a cunt, a rule lawyer, a WAAC player, and so forth. Not to mention the moral code of the unwritten rules! This makes the game even more complex, as it has a humongous amount of non existing "rules of etiquette" of which you must abide. These are of course bound to the local meta. You can build the list, but its not ok to build THAT list. You can play a powerful army, but only if you don't milk it through. If you play a "bad" army, your basically allowed to do what ever you want (personal manners included!), and you can blame it all on how GW shits on your team.
Oh, and every game starts with a "oh, so your bringing THAT!?! Well fat chance Ill have of winning", as a backup if you actually would lose. This gives you the right to say "Told you so!".
>>47473894
GW are being a bit delusional there.
Most of their customers are people there to play the games. They're often drawn in by the lore and cool stuff, but they are gamers for the most part. GW can argue against this, but they'd be wrong - they, by their own admission, do not do ANY customer research, so their customer community is going to have a far better idea of what it looks like than they are.
GW can scream and cry that they're a miniatures company, but they started making wargames, most their customers are there for the games, and the reason they were hemorrhaging players of WHFB to the point that they had to cull the line is that they'd made the GAME awful to play.
>>47474056
So who squated the TK and Brets?
>>47474080
Warmahordes on the other hand are a bunch of self-harming-faggots that enjoys sitting in a lonely corner weeping over why oh why, they didn't get the "best combination", as far as the forum goes. Most of them must also be a bit retarded, as they still haven't got what mk3 is all about, still just sitting and comparing stuff 1vs1 as in a vacuum, disregarding the rest of the game. I actually got yelled at on /tg/ for advising a Cryx player to de-buff before he assaulted, as he felt it "unfair" to be needed to de-buff to do the damage he needed. Cryx of course, being the de-buff masters of WMH.
But in games, I find the WMH players liking the idea of playing by the RAW, which I personally like. I like the tournament side of the game, as I feel the core rules support this setting pretty well. This game lacks in models, and quality of models (they are getting better, but still a long way to go for the prices they take!), but makes up for it in game rules and pure combat!
>>47473698
I wonder what that was supposed to mean.
>>47474019
Again, as you say, its all a matter of opinion. WoW seems to have captured many players hearts in terms of looks, and it really is all over the place. I can honestly feel a connection (I don't know if I'm alone in this), with the current AoS and the look of WoW models. They look so over the top, so cartoony, that its just on the brink of "to much". But at the same time, it draws the mind to that "wouldn't that be freaking awesome?!?".
I get what your saying, and I know the new models ain't for everyone to like, but I think they look pretty great to be honest. This of course dating back to my WoW days, I have no doubt about that, and I wouldn't dream of playing AoS models in the Warhammer Fantasy world, because frankly they lack the touch of the grimdark you posted in your pictures.
>>47474153
Yeah, who knows.
>>47474084
>Most are gamers
Well, not according to GW. And who am I to argue. I could say, like the rest of us "hell, of course we all play! Just look at your local game shop for Christ sake!", but that would not be a very good structure to build facts upon.
>How does GW know this?
I don't know, they might not know more than me or you, but the fact is they have publicly announced that they estimate 80% of their customers are builders and painters only. They might have taken that numbers out of their ass, or they might actually know better than you or me.
This question is obviously out of our reach, and we could argue for hours, that still wouldn't lead to anything.
But from a GW standpoint, they are indeed a modeling company, whose primary objective in this world is to make good looking plastic models. The word "game" isn't even in their primary business idea (which is funny as hell, considering they are called GAMES workshop).
>>47474160
> its all a matter of opinion
Except it isn't. Whether or not you like something has absolutely no bearing on its actual quality. Thousands and thousands of people around the world praised awful novels like Eragon or Twilight, but that doesn't mean those books aren't poorly-written, derivative tripe. If you like the AoS models, that's fine, but from an objective standpoint they're aesthetically messy, confused, and on the whole extremely poorly designed.
>>47474271
>Well, not according to GW.
The company that boasts about how it doesn't need to do market research? You'll excuse me if I don't take their claims as gospel. The people in charge of the company are completely detached from the realities of the modern wargaming market.
Hmm, well, on the subject of communities, I've got my grievances with both.
Warmahordes:
>+ generally know the rules very well.
>+ usually a little tighter due to less players
>+ nobody ever expects you to hold back
>+ almost never cheat on purpose
>+ usually not 12
>+ very competitive
>- very fucking competitive
>- feel sorta elitist sometimes
>- paint their models because they need them painted for tourneys, but will proxy a lot of shit in their downtime when testing stuff
>- rarely buy or use stuff just because it's cool
>- only about half of them really care about the fluff
40K:
>+ usually have a big interest in the fluff, which is fun to talk about
>+ larger community, so technically higher chances of meeting someone you like
>+ more players willing to just field what they like the look of
>+ even if there are a ton of cheaters and shitheads, there'll be a few people that just want to chill and have fun guaranteed
>- cheaters fucking everywhere
>- often care about the fluff too much, will sometimes get bitter and abusive about it
>- 90% Imperium armies, getting a game against something that isn't Imperium of favour of the week OPness is really hard
>- often genuinely hate non-GW gamers for some reason, will start shit with them
>- 12 year olds everywhere
Both communities are full of annoying things. Just different kinds of annoying things.
>>47474271
GW are lying with that announcement.
We know how Fantasy died. It died because the game became hard to play and less fun to play, with them pushing huge over-detailed models and making them necessary for playing. If 80% of their customer base were modellers and painters, that would have been great for them, and the game would be thriving. But they weren't, and the game died because they refused to make their rules good.
GW boasts - BOASTS - that they do zero market research. They don't know shit, and their claims are literally made up.
>>47474203
You wont just answer aye?
>>47473714
Total bullshit. Depends on people and people only.
>>47474160
I doubt there are much new people coming into it. However, reference to WoW is sorta good, especially the "SUPER-DRUPER-EPIC MINIS/MODELS!" Fuck, that all-flashy stuff can be overdone, it really can be! You dont have to place shittons of crystals and stuff on armor/weapons to make things look fantasy, or fires or whatsoever.
>>47474472
>>- paint their models because they need them painted for tourneys, but will proxy a lot of shit in their downtime when testing stuff
Here noone paints theikr fucking armies. I'm the world's slowest painter, after 20 years or so in warhamms fantasy I got 2 fully painted armies and 2 partially painted ones. When I started warmahordes I went from 'that guy that never get's his shit painted' to 'that great artist guy' because I got maybe 1/3 of my models painted while everyone else plays silver tides.
>>47474512
>with them pushing huge over-detailed models and making them necessary for playing.
That wasn't even the biggest problem, it was pushing the Horde and Steadfast rules so you needed 30-50 models in each regiment. And then selling those models at £20 per 10. The big centerpiece models weren't even all that disruptive to play, really. GW just priced the game to death.
>>47474096
Someone smart enough to realise that sometimes you have to let go, and that shit, there's still a cimpany to run.
>>47474534
Well, everything varies by area.
I personally find that there's an equal number of no-paint-Pete's in both communities. There are lazy fucks in both. In WMH there are cunts who constantly intend on painting their stuff up but never go through with it, whereas in 40K there are powergaming shits that constantly just buy the newest OP stuff and are always playing a revolving selection of grey, poorly-modeled blobs.
>>47474472
But 40k fluff is completely messed up nowadays. And with time-standstill, well...
And no, talking about fluff is not interesting. Simply because people who actually play 40k read all the fluff stuff themselves, so nothing to discuss really.
>+ more players willing to just field what they like the look of
nope
>+ even if there are a ton of cheaters and shitheads, there'll be a few people that just want to chill and have fun guaranteed
>+
really? how is that a positive thing that you can find a chunk of gold in a mountain of shit?
>- often genuinely hate non-GW gamers for some reason, will start shit with them
nope
>- paint their models because they need them painted for tourneys, but will proxy a lot of shit in their downtime when testing stuff
you really expect people to buy really expensive minis just so you would be satisfied that they aint using proxxy stuff?
>- rarely buy or use stuff just because it's cool
buying stuff because it is cool and i might have a plan of how to use it.
>>47474593
>Well, everything varies by area.
Yeah, I see that. I started playing warmahordes in one of the most competetive areas of my country with lot's of guys playing internationally. They treat their minis like magic cards for the most part. Otherwise pretty cool guys.
>>47474512
>because the game became hard to play and less fun to play, with them pushing huge over-detailed models and making them necessary for playing. If 80% of their customer base were modellers and painters, that would have been great for them, and the game would be thriving. But they weren't, and the game died because they refused to make their rules good.
Hmmm does not remind me of 40k at all.
>>47474616
Man, what are you saying 'nope' for? Do you think saying it enough, or with enough conviction, will make it resound back through time and magically reshape my experiences with these games?
>really? how is that a positive thing that you can find a chunk of gold in a mountain of shit?
It's a positive thing that there's always one of two people who really are just there to chill. Casual gamers just playing for fun aren't guaranteed with Warmahordes, though I've met plenty in my time.
>you really expect people to buy really expensive minis just so you would be satisfied that they aint using proxxy stuff?
I definitely prefer playing against a full army of painted, legit models than against unpainted stuff or just proxies. If you're testing something out for competitive play and are gonna buy/paint those models if it works out, that's fine with me, but for someone really into the aesthetic side of things that could be a turn-off.
Look, I'm just putting down my experiences, which is all any of us have here. None of us have hard data. No amount of 'nope!' is going to change the stuff I've run into. And I'm not attacking whichever game is your favourite.
For the record, I guess, I play more Warmahordes these days. But that's only really because the rules are way tighter and I like the angry elves a lot, the communities each have their on pros and cons as far as I can tell.
>>47474616
40k Fluff has been shit for years anyway.
It's strange how the community pretty much subsists on the butthurt induced by newer fluff, and the memory of the 2nd to 5th edition era.
>>47462631
Sure, turn 1 assassinations happen, mostly due to ignorance or you got your dumb ass too far forward.
Do you know how many times I've basically been tabled turn 1 in 40K? Too many times. How many times have I died T1 in WM? 0!
You can definitely do less damage to your opponent on average in warmachine on turn 1 than warhammer, that's a fact. Not because I hate GW, its because warmachine doesn't have artillery with 60"+ range.
And GW is NOT cheaper than PP where I'm from, and you can still get 2 50 point list pairs for cheaper in WM than you could 40K/fantasy.
>>47475012
Not really, man, i just said it aint my experience with "nope".
Well, consider this: i am living in russia, and we got just 1-2 wannabe-badass douchebags outta 10-12 people. Dunno how it goes there at civilized outside of Iron Curtain.
Well in that case i cant quite disagree. Thought back in time when i was starting 40k we played with cola caps as small base model proxxies, and when someone showed up with at least primed models (i had Thousand Sons and they were daym badass, actually, still are) everyone was like WHOA WOW. Oh and we still had tons of fun besides playing with cola caps. With actualy minis it is funnier thought.
>And I'm not attacking whichever game is your favourite.
None is lol, i never played WMH before and just assembling and painting my armies yet.
Well, never saw much differences. We had some historical wargame players, i do not remember how it was called back then, as well as FB and 40k players. Cant say ive seen much difference between the groups.
Not like i cared at all actually lol.
>>47475096
>Do you know how many times I've basically been tabled turn 1 in 40K?
How the fuck is that even possible? What point cost game was it?
>because warmachine doesn't have artillery with 60"+ range.
I feel you, getting your boys across the 36-48'' table which is crawling with guardsmen and their cheap as fuck tanks aiming at your poor metal boxes carrying your slow infantry is a pain in the ass.Thought not impossible, but a pain.
>>47475076
Well i stopped carying much after that kadia-being-conquered stuff being revamped (rewamped?).
>>47475299
>How the fuck is that even possible?
Depends on the Edition, really, but I've seen it many times with whatever is broken at the moment.
Alpha Striking is retardedly powerful in 40k.
>>47475360
Shit i dont wanna sell my armies. But it seems i will have to. My Sons, my beloved ones. What have they made to a game so i cant play it? I am so dissapointed...
I just do not really remember any of that happening in 4-5th editions, when i actually played the game.
As far as models and fluff, it is irrelevant if you are just looking at gameplay. WMH has rules that actually aren't bad while 40K and AoS have among the worst rules in the market (Rune Knights is probably beneath 40K however) and they are showing no signs of fixing them, despite AoS having a living document that should in theory be able to have its core rules fixed.
>>47475360
It's not like anything survives in warmachine from a dedicated attack.
40k is a war game, if you focus war assets on a point what the fuck do you think happens?
However as someone that's played 40k for a long time and warmachine for a while, unless your fucking terrible at 40k there's no way to repeatedly get tabled turn one.
>Alpha Striking
Also called assassination runs by some plebs
>>47475719
>It's not like anything survives in warmachine from a dedicated attack.
With the new edition stuff probably will. Not infantry, but in general, buffs to POW and the number of things like weaponmaster are being decreased. So warjacks are more survivable now, as are the 8-wound medium based infantry still around, like Man-o-Wars and Skinwalkers.
>>47457573
First: Are you a competitive gamer? Or a casual who enjoys the lore and the hobby?
Dont know/care about competition but if you want lore and fun then >>>
Check the games you want, download pdf of lore/rulebook and see what gets you. Next go to store and ask for the community or go to facebook. Check in the store what they have and how much money you have. Compare prices online and in store if you are tight with money. A game can be perfect. but without a good community its gonna suck. Warmachine has some obnoxious competitive players, warhammer has the new up to the neck in flashy minis "i love everything" type and the "i hate everything new" type. 40 has horrible consistency in lore. Then again, those are just examples. I just buy 2 factions I like and then invite friends and create my own comunity.
>>47475719
As someone who played during third to fifth edition and only ever dabbled a bit in Warmachine:
Actually there were ways. Unless you were playing ultra-competetive lists, you could repeatedly get blown out of the water T1 if you were playing power lists.
One example was the 3rd Edition Alaitoc Ranger Disruption list. Remember those days?
The good old Leafblower of days long gone was another of those things.
Hell, if you were playing Necrons in 5th, you were pretty much guaranteed to get BTFO'd until their update.
Iron Warriors were a vertiable cleanup crew.
The problem isn't that units get murdered when everything shoots at them. The problem always was that most good units in 40k are glass cannons, because the weapons are so god damn powerful, leading to a situation where you can effectively neuter the opponents army if you are lucky.
I distinctively remember a game in 5th edition with my Guard against Nids. Three manticores and four Russes pretty much murdered a good half of his army turn one, with chunks of monstours creatures and bodies of gaunts flying everywhere. By the time it was his turn, there was just nothing left to fight back.
And any time melee is on the upswing, it's worse, because the side that charges has such an insane advantage.
>>47474578
Why would it ever make sense to discontinue a revenue source? They didn't have to invest any further capital, the molds were already made.
Please enlighten me on this "cimpany" logic.
How do I use Croak raiders?
>>47480356
throw oil at something, throw fire x9 at it after that
Infinity is fucking rad to play as long as you have over 100 points each, the reaction and order system makes each individual model so important, even the weaker ones.
A couple of people who got in at my club are doing 150 point games because it's cheap to get to, 150pt squad is like, 9 dudes maybe.
My Japanese squad for instance is 8 guys.
http://www.strawpoll.me/10312122
What is your MKIII factions?
>>47457573
Warhammer is better for forging your own narrative and fun play.
Warmachine/Hordes is better if you want a balanced game and play in tournaments.
Both are roughly the same price, but over a long period Warmachine/Hordes will likely be a bit cheaper.
>>47457659
>>47457790
>>47459409
>>47460495
>>47461389
These are good answers.
I used to be a GW only person, then dropped it for Warmachine.
Warmachine isn't perfect, but playing is more important than the list from the latest codex.
>>47462631
>Right, because the turn 1 warcaster assassin run isn't a thing
Yeah, but no.
Getting tabled in turn 1 NEVER happens in warmachine. Losing the game because you got caster killed is possible, but you have to put your caster in a situation where the opponent can take advantage of it. (right models in the right places on both sides of the board)
>>47485613
not him but there's a lot of talk of kara sloan being able to do it in mk3
>>47480565
>150pt squad is like, 9 dudes maybe.
300pt squads a 10 figures too. Getting over 15 is not so common, and remember you have to split them into groups of up to 10 figures.
>>47485759
Not many people have actually played Mk3, so it's hard to tell how much truth is in that.
>>47471718
Except for the fact they're constantly making new models and nerfing things into the ground, and so on and so forth.
>>47485759
This will likely not happen, given that lists will have 3 or so heavies in them, or like 6 lights. Cygnar doesn't have the long range firepower to do that turn 1. I think her alpha ability is going to be mitigated by the sheer beef that is now a requisite or play.
You might actually lose something turn 1, but I'm pretty sure you have to be on the play, so you get board space out of the exchange, which is one of the most important things in gunline matchups.
>>47457573
At my shop the warmachine players have well painted armies, but are fat rule lawyering douchebags, while the 40k players are nice, but they are young and play with terribly painted or unpainted armies.
>>47489225
>People that play with a competitive attitude and try to win are douche bags.
Tell me /tg/ when did you become carebear children?
>>47490481
I never said they had competitive attitudes and were just trying to win. I said they were douchebags. Looks like you're probably one too.
>>47492402
>Defensive.
>Projection.
>Says rule lawyer like it's a four letter word.
Nice try junior.
>>47462631
>it's 35-50 because HURR money.
No, its 35-50 because the most replay is at that number of models (20-30) and maneuver units (5-10), pretty much regardless of system. Below that you get too much rochambeau. and above it is tedium.
>>47469790
>>47470043
Toxic players exist for every game. Sometimes that toxicity is an odor in the room, sometimes its the obvious WAACs, and sometimes it takes a while to figure out that the "nice guy" is really a win-stealing sociopath. We have three of those locally. One loves Infinity and Dropzone, while the other two move around between games (currently in WMH, but they were "hibernating" in the MtG crowd for a while) looking for psychological victims to wreck. These two also specialize in getting buddy-buddy deals on armies, playing them a month or two, then selling them on BT for huge profits before buddying up to someone else for the next round.
These sorts are not part of a game's "community", they are predators who will gravitate to which ever game is being played.
>>47473567
>In terms of pure quality,
Technical prowess is high, sure. Still doesn't mean they are good.
>>47494420
It's also worth noting that while Warmachine is a competitive game, a lot of control is in player hands.
PP has tried to get people to play 75 point games, but the community at large refuses to do so, The 35-50 point games are essentially player established, because that's where the game is the most overall balanced.
Even with the new system, the 75 point value they're sugggesting isn't set in stone, but rather the closest to the old 50 point games. And it's actually smaller overall, none of my old 50 point lists fit at the new 75, if only just by a little.
And given how the game is changing list building dynamics, armies are going to get cheaper, not more expensive.
>>47494733
Yeah, I and my more casual playing friends find 50 point (MK2) games are good afternoon fillers, which is the point of miniatures games outside the fast and furious tourney crowd.
We had a couple guys try a 200 point game once. Once. They set up at noon and had to have a dinner break, finishing near 10pm.
>>47475442
TS were never that good . Serviceable in the 3.5 codex
>>47484806
>over a long period Warmachine/Hordes will likely be a bit cheaper.
Even the rabid collectors of an army are usually only going to be presented with one new thing to buy every two months or so, and it might range from $10 to around $120 (though the highest end are not common). It is both a positive and a negative, depending on your income and level of acquired cynicism.
>>47457573
If there's one thing I can tell you, go to the game shop first, ask the store keep what games are going strong there. Most have evenings for certain games. I'm lucky as my shop hosts a plethora of miniature wargame nights. You go there and you are bound to find someone willing to give you a demo game. If it's fun and the guys seem nice, go for it.
ALSO, the internet (especially /tg/ and franchise specific forums) is just a pure representation of the worst each community has to offer. Everybody complains about cheese list players in 40k, yet every 40k group I hanged out with was awesome, fluffy and fun. Recently I've started going to X-wing game nights. Now, X-wing is a lot of netlists but the community saw me and a friend as newcommers so made less competitive lists to play against us and helped us with our list building. Nobody was an enormous Twat and we all lived fucking happily ever after. Now leave this thread before you give up on Wargaming due to these sorry morrons above. It's the community, not the game (though a good game helps)
