Previous Thread: >>44872329
http://pastebin.com/mxLKGGi9
You know those guides that places like /co/ and /a/ have? We should compile something like that for the thread. A bunch of good sources to go for inspiration for your chronicle.
>>44920659
can someone tell me what happened in the final days of owod Vamp with cain and lilith and Owod oblivion
>>44920644
>>44920599
>>44920508
Okay, so we should probably spoiler this discussion, since this is all based on stuff that's in the Storyteller sections of the Mummy books (And the Book of the Deceived, which spoils practically everything). Mummy is the only gameline in CofD that actually cares about players not knowing things about the setting, so if you want to play Mummy one day (and care about setting spoilers) don't read this discussion...To start with, we're not sure what the Judges of Duat actually are. In the Book of the Deceived, we learn that the Shan'iatu were created by "The Judges", but that these judges (The "Judges of Life") did NOT reside in Duat, but elsewhere. They created the Shan'iatu with the intent of teaching humanity so that they could pass on properly to the next life. The Shan'iatu were barred from this, though, as they were essentially "Living Nomenclature", spells (in the Mummy sense, not the Mage sense) made manifest as living beings.
So the Shan'iatu were pissed, rebelled against the Judges of Life, and made a deal with Ammut, the embodiment of entropy and destruction. They created Irem essentially as an engine to exalt themselves in the Underworld, and the Rite of Return that created the Arisen was a sacrifice that allowed them to break free into Duat and (this is never explicitly stated but I think it's the most reasonable implcation) BECAME the Judges of Duat themselves.
The problem is that the Shan'iatu can't actually create Sekhem, only manipulate it. Thus, they made the Arisen to continually send them Sekhem and maintain their power in Duat.
>>44920859
I've always been of the notion that secrecy between player knowledge and Storyteller knowledge is something that doesn't really work well. "This is the Storyteller section, don't read!" only really works for the first time you have a game anyway, and is already based on the assumptions that you're going to play, and that when you do play you're going to know in advance whether you're the ST or a player. On top of that, knowing about setting aspects allows you to better create your character.
Also, man, nothing you said makes sense to me. Mummy is like one of those post-DVR shows where the first five episodes are a slow burn where nothing really happens, but the next ten episodes are really great and some of the best storytelling on television... but first you have to get through the first five episodes or you won't know what's going on.
>>44920859How does this tie in with the Lower Depths? Well, I'm thinking that Ammut is probably a being from the lower depths (if not a manifestation of the Abyss). Duat is a Lower Depth that's missing Sekhem - the vital stuff of Life and Creation. Ammut tricked the Shan'iatu into either creating or merely sustaining her little realm in the Depths, a false, fallen afterlife.
If we want to get REALLY "crackpot theory", I personally believe that the original "Duat" that the Judges of Life wanted the Shan'iatu to guide humanity toward wasn't the Underworld, but the actual place where human souls go when they die (wherever that is). I would even go so far as to say that the Judges of Life could be manifestations of the Principle (or the Judges and the Principle are manifestations of the same higher power) that actually creates souls and instantiates them into the world from somewhere "higher" than the Supernal World.
Hey Guys. Im going to a Vampire larp.
How badly did I screw up?It's in europe, not the us
>>44920923
That's a very good way of putting it lol.
The thing about Mummy, though, is that the source of horror in the game is "your PC remembers nothing about their history, who they are, and how they became what they are and were entrusted with the duty they have." Your integrity stat is literally "Memory". So keeping the "twists" of the setting secret makes more sense than in most gamelines.
>>44920798
What's the Skien from Changeling that Dave mentions?
>>44920950
Vampire LARP is basically code for sex with fat chicks. Good on you
>>44920956
Yeah, but that only works for one game. I'm also someone who takes a different approach to the topic of "metagaming", in that I feel players who know what their characters don't can write better stories.
For instance, if I the player know that of the two rooms my character can walk into, one has a clue and the other has an ambush... I can walk into the ambush because it makes for a better story.
>>44920974
Is it? So I should't go there to expect political intrigue, vandetta's and people who cannot stand one another but are forced to work together for the good of the Masquerade?
>>44921038
No, you should expect grimdark Twilight
>>44921038
While LARP groups can get pretty incestuous and there's surprisingly large amounts of sex (and not everyone is a "fat chick"), what I've found happens more often in these large MMO style games is that everyone wants to fuck everyone else over and become Prince. Plus, there's basically zero logic or realistic consequences, so no, no one really works together for the good of the Masquerade, because cops don't exist and anyone can get away with anything if the STs are lazy or understaffed (which they will be).
>>44920859
>>44920924
That Dreams of Avarice reveals thatthe names Shan'Iatu and the Temakh are synonymsmakes things even more complicated.
Also cause it was asked in the last thread: dead Egyptians still go to the Underworld, like (mostly) everyone does. Duat is just were Mummies and Judges are, hence the natural conclusion that it must be a Lower Depth from a Mage perspective.
>>44920659
>A bunch of good sources to go for inspiration for your chronicle.
I feel like as cartoony as it is, Gravity Falls should be on this list.
Although maybe I'm just dumb, but I don't feel like it's the smartest show on television, cryptograms aside. It's cute and clever, and there have been a lot of things I wouldn't expect from a Disney channel show (like lots of references to killing or dying, even if it's just saying a zombie should die again), but it doesn't really feel like it's on the level of LOST or anything.
>>44921274
It's good Innocents inspiration, if nothing else.
>>44921301
<Bill
>A being who obviously hails from a Lower Depths without Prime.
>In an Innocents game.
In the immortal words of Genghis Khan "U wot m8?"
>>44921496
Bill's small time. Weirdmageddon's proving that so far.
>>44921221Well yea, Book of the Decieved spells that out pretty blatantly too - that the Temakh are the fractured souls of former Shan'iatu. Or are you taking about something else?
Also remember that the Underworld is a little more complicated then that - the Underworld is where people's GHOSTS go when they die. Ghosts are not the same a Souls in CofD's cosmologies, and we don't know where Souls go after death.
>>44921626
Right, right, I should have made that more clear. I wonder if, in the event of Mummy 2e, it's going to keep its more traditional ghosts or adopt CofD's view of them. You could probably get away with a Demon-esque situation where one word describes many similar creatures.
As for that,Reading section of Dreams of Avarice about the creation of the Shan'Iatu gave me the impression that the Decieved's usage of "Temakh" is a more modern interpretation/usage of the world, since The Heretic says to use the term "Temakh" to refer to them when discussing how to translate it, and they seem to be made whole from the beginning. Could be the Heretic's personal biases, or maybe I'm not reading right, who knows.
>>44921305
"Fetish" as used for porn is different from fetish used for Werewolf magic objects, which is closer to "artifact" or "magic token".
Also, are you seriously telling me that Hebrew has no single word term for "fate" or "destiny"? Even "horoscope" would be a good term for Auspice.
Maybe you people should be more willing to make up new words instead of trying to force old words to fit. As a young person, you should make neologisms. Although I'm surprised that hasn't happened already. Just Hebrewize English words. Werewolfim is fine. Or whatever אָדַםזְאֵב comes out to. I honestly don't know, I just pulled it from Google Translate. Wolf+Man. That's all it is in English anyway.
>>44921898
>Maybe you people should be more willing to make up new words instead of trying to force old words to fit. As a young person, you should make neologisms.
I take it that trying to change and expand what's considered a holy and respected language isn't going to end well. People freak out when it's a bastard, rogueish language like English being changed.
>>44921496
>>44921563
Lower Depths without Prime?
How would you use Gravity Falls for an Innocents game? Actually, how would you do an Innocents game in general?
>>44922020
>Lower Depths without Prime?
Without Truth, not the capital 'T'.
>>44922067
>not
*note
>>44921898
>"Fetish" as used for porn is different from fetish used for Werewolf magic objects, which is closer to "artifact" or "magic token".
Yeah, but neither exist in Hebrew. There's "magic item", and that's it. Hebrew mythology is filled with talismans and amulets, but the things is, these have a different meaning in English.
>Also, are you seriously telling me that Hebrew has no single word term for "fate" or "destiny"? Even "horoscope" would be a good term for Auspice.
That is hardly the same thing. It would create more confusion than it would negate. Imagine if Auspice had been renamed "fate". It's a world that, within it's WoD context, has very specific connotations that are more important than a direct translation, hence "Moon Birth".
And אדםזאב is just mashing two words together. I won't go into the linguistics of it but for various reasons it's a very awkward word. Generally, a werewolf is called אדם זאב (notice how these are just the same two words, separated) but needing two words to describe a term that comes up constantly isn't convenient.
Regarding Don't Rest Your Head: the official translation was garbage, but there have been independent efforts on improving it, some of which are surprisingly good.
Mother When -> אם מתי, which literally means "mother when" but, when pronounced out loud, sounds exactly like אימתי, which means "When shall this happen?" and has a connotation to אימה, meaning horror. Honestly, this one is so obvious people were shocked the official translation insisted on calling her אם כאשר, which is less intuitive, stupider, and harder to say.
While on the subject of Mother When, the Sisters in Hating have been renamed בנות לוויה, which is another particularly clever bit of wordplay since by itself it means "Handmaidens", but each word being read separately can mean "Daughters/Ladies of the Funeral." Which is just about as perfect a description as the Ladies in Hating can get.
>>44921799
I see what you're talking about now.I think the implication is that "Temakh" is the word for the kind of being that the Shan'iatu are (i.e., a living expression of the Nomenclature.) So yea, the Heretic would probably encourage that, calling them by what they are rather than by their titles.
>>44922020
Innocents games are pretty much just WoD games, with the knowledge and understanding that it focuses on kids and being a kid. Your school's part of an Infrastructure, the local scouting troop's become an extension of a Mummy's cult, Spirits and Ghosts are doing shit, and the monster under your bed is a Beast.
You can use Gravity Falls as inspiration because it uses what would be considered "adult level threats" in a way that kids can deal with.
>>44922153
Who are the major players in the Israeli gaming industry?
>>44922153
>Hebrew mythology is filled with talismans and amulets, but the things is, these have a different meaning in English.
... And?
Also, I feel like "Moon Birth" could be confusing as well, if it's also the term for a New Moon. Also? All new words are awkward. You think Irakka isn't awkward?
I'm also not really sure why two words is worse than one.
>>44922268
I know how Innocents games work. But there are a lot of restrictions placed on kids, and clearly kids aren't going to be able to fight back in the usual ways. Plus there's all the people who feel that Innocents games are inherently perverse and only played by pedophiles. Which is sort of a weird thing to hate on when one of the longest running shows in US television is about catching child rapists and other people who would make good Innocents villains if they were supernatural.
>>44922176
Yeah, that sounds like it's make sense. Man, as cool as the fluff of Mummy is, I'm glad its the only line that reveals almost all of its major setting beats via in-character text. It can be real tough to tease out sometimes.
>>44922402
>But there are a lot of restrictions placed on kids, and clearly kids aren't going to be able to fight back in the usual ways.
Hence why it's a different playstyle. It's going to be a lot of sneaking around parents backs, trickery, and stronger interpersonal connections. There's plenty of kids adventure/horror stories to borrow from for that kind of play style.
>Plus there's all the people who feel that Innocents games are inherently perverse and only played by pedophiles.
Who are these people and why do they matter? That's like fretting over people who drive-by saying that WoD is for emo goths and limp-wristed liberals. Who cares? If some group's going to re-enact that one scene from IT to get their rocks off, I'm going to give them a wide berth and burn the chairs they sat on, but that's a playgroup problem, not the problem of the actual book.
Also I don't know what you're trying to do but you're not going to spark the Hebrew language revolution via telling some anon to make up words for their monster game .
>>44922592
I was more just telling that specific anon that he shouldn't sweat "sounding weird" when playing his nerd game.
Also, this episode would make a good Innocents plot. Video game character invades the real world and tries to ruin the PC's life by being clingy and psychotic.
>>44922751
But you do want to avoid sounding werd. Not out of embarassment, but because translation is an art as much as it is a science and you want elegant solutions that work for the language you're translating to. Weird sounding words can break immersion, especially in nerdy games that have immersion as their main goals.
>>44920962
That's their view of the dream-realm.
They see it as a connected set of dreams.
Mages on the other hand sees each dream as a separate thing.
Beasts connect them via physical location.
>>44921898
>"Fetish" as used for porn is different from fetish used for Werewolf magic objects, which is closer to "artifact" or "magic token".
Actually, it isn't. Both mean "object given a different meaning". It's just that in one case it's magical, another it's sexual.
>>44922268
>Who are the major players in the Israeli gaming industry?
To the best of my knowledge, no RPG has ever been originally published in Hebrew. There are games of the "free PDF on the Israeli equivalent of 1KM1KT" but about as many people play them as you'd expect. There were a few D&D supplements and a campaign setting, mostly by a company called Silver Star which I'm fairly certain no longer exists, and that's about it.
There were Hebrew translations of several English RPGs, including, as I said, nearly all editions of D&D (mostly translations of the core books and a few essential supplements, like the "Complete [class]" series for 3.5), Exalted, Shadowrun (whose Hebrew name, מירוצללים, I actually think is better than the English one), and Don't Rest Your Head (translated as בלי לעצום עין, literally "Without Shutting an Eye"). As I said, World of Darkness, especially the old one, is popular but to the best of my knowledge it has never been officially translated.
>>44922824
Yeah, but look at the words we actually use.
Moros?
Mystagogue?
Ventrue?
It's all just random made up words. They all sound like nonsense to people. Have you ever heard people talking about a game you don't know? It's inane babbling.
>>44923031
Same word, same origin, but different meaning. If I was looking to translate the sex term, I'd try to find synonyms like "kink" or "turn on". If I was looking to translate the magical one, I'd go for "talisman" or maybe "trinket".
>>44922437
Yea... it makes the books fun to read but DAMN is it hard to ST.
>>44922402
>I'm also not really sure why two words is worse than one.
Takes longer to say. When you're trying to create a language, every second of pronunciation and every syllable is critical. If two words can be used to say the exact same thing, and one is a syllable longer, it would likely lose the linguistic evolutionary race, over time. The fractions of seconds it takes people to say an unnecessarily long word add up.
>>44923128
>Moros?
Modernised term for a Romanian kind of vampire.
>Mystagogue?
Means "Someone who initiates another through the mysteries", generally applicable to real world mystery cults.
>Ventrue?
Feminine version of an Old French word meaning "fat".
>Same word, same origin, but different meaning. If I was looking to translate the sex term, I'd try to find synonyms like "kink" or "turn on". If I was looking to translate the magical one, I'd go for "talisman" or maybe "trinket".
I'd argue same meaning, but different usage. But that's just arguing semantics, while arguing semantics.
According to mage cosmology, where do new souls come from? More specifically, what is the normal "life-cycle" of an individual soul?
Is there a fixed number of souls?
Do they originate (or return) to the Supernal Realms or somewhere else?
Do people's souls reincarnate to other people?
Can regular mages or archmasters create souls, and if so, how?
If you destroy or consume someone's soul, can they still leave a ghost after their death?
>>44923467
That's something that's argued about! Noone knows!
>>44923499
I assume that there are some prevailing theories among mages and fans concerning souls, and certain questions seem like the answers would be available.
For instance, I assume any master of Death could determine if a soulless person could still leave a ghost.
>>44923547
You don't even have to kill someone to make a Ghost!
>>44923467
>Is there a fixed number of souls?
Only game I know that touched upon this somehow is In Dark Alleys. Long story short, it's also a gnostic game (god is evil, reality is an illusion, humans were originally omnipotent, yada yada) and the number of souls within reality IS, in fact, limited. "Souls" are essentially the being humans were before the Demiurge enfleshed them. Used to be there were more souls than people - the guys in charge of reality had to keep a few in the Land of the Dead longer than it normally took before reincarnation simply because there weren't vacant bodies.
Now, though, humans multiply so fast there are more and more bodies to go around and the number of souls is static. That means more and more people are being born without souls. Physiologically and even neurologically they are human, but (due to the way the cosmology of In Dark Alleys is built) they have no subconscious world and are thus unambitious and uncreative. They behave based on a general idea of how the souled people around them believe that they should, and that's about it.
Right now there's about one souless person per 10 "real" people. It might get worse in the future.
>>44923579
Really? Is that a new 2e thing?
It also doesn't really answer the question of whether you could create a ghost from someone without a soul.
Mage cosmology is so broad and complicated that every answer just leads to more questions. It definitely and effectively (and quite frustratingly) reinforces the theme and setting of obsessive mages seeking out answers to questions really best left unanswered.
>>44923579
For some reason this made me think of Kamen Rider Ghost, not sure why.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbYyG9sZc5g
>>44923128
No, they're real but re-appropriated words, a common White Wolf tradition. There's a difference between that and what you are suggesting, which is make up a brand new word, and hope that it will not be jarring enough in use. You really have to do your research before you speak, Aspel.
When you are translating something you want to avoid making up words, because doing so can only twist the meaning further.
>>44923249
My favorite White Wolf word is probably Lasombra, or just "The Shadow".
>>44923078
How strange that WoD is so popular but no one bothers to officially sell it. Then again the market is probably small no matter what.
>>44923467
The "life-cycle" as we know it is -
>When a person is born, a soul "instantiates" as part of their pattern.
>When they die, it disappears - it's not destroyed, but rather vanishes as if it was never there to begin with.
A soul that isn't inside of a vessel (whether a human or a Soul Jar or similar magical preparation) dissipates after a short while, as when a person dies.
As for your other questions,
>Unlikely - the total population of humanity has grown, but new babies are still being born with souls.
>Souls do NOT originate from the Supernal Realms. That we know specifically. They can be perceived and manipulated using Supernal Magic, but they are not of the Supernal themselves.
>Nobody knows - if they do, no mage has yet discovered any trace of a past incarnation in a soul.
>No - Archmages can mess with them in ways that others can't (such as dividing their souls into multiple copies), but they can't just create them whole-cloth.
>Yes - ghosts are unrelated (or at least not entirely related) to souls.
>>44923195
On the bright side, save for Dreams of Avarice, which is intended to be a game prop as much as it is a book, it's one chapter in the whole book. Sone oWoD books would have multiple in-character chapters, cause I guess they thought that people would fall asleep reading about supernatural life if Johnny Badass, author insert, wasn't taking to them about it while going on tangents about the Black Panthers or whatever.
>>44923762
>My favorite White Wolf word is probably Lasombra, or just "The Shadow".
Better than Toreador or Bullfigther?
>>44923237
"Wolf man" and "wolfman" take the same amount of time to pronounce...
>>44923762
>>44923249
Moros comes from moros.
Ventrue probably has more to do with Venture, as in business.
My point was that they're silly words that are made up from other words. A lot of them aren't even reappropriated so much as "take a word, change a letter or two".
There's also the portmanteau, which is combining two words into a new word. Fandom, electrocutioner, machinima, brunch, beefalo, spork...
Also, different usage means different meaning. Use dictates meaning. Either way, if you're translating a journal on fetishes, you use kink words. You're talking about the magic objects, you translate that like talisman.
>>44923655
>>44923579
Harry Dresden did that twice.
>>44923655
Most ghosts are emotions printed onto the world by way of ectoplasm. They're old photographs showing traumatic moments in history, there'd be no need for a soul.
Could a Mage with dots in Spirit kill people, suffuce their souls with spirit energy and then stick them pack in their bodies as a Purified?
>>44923777
>Unlikely - the total population of humanity has grown, but new babies are still being born with souls.
As another anon suggested, there might simply be a large pool of souls, and human population has yet to reach its limits.
It would be an interesting chronicle for mages to investigate a series of children born worldwide without souls and its cosmological implications.
>>44923955
That's easy, just kill any sleeper over retirement age to free up souls for the new kids.
>>44923912
>create a ghost from someone without a soul
>Harry Dresden did that twice
When?
>>44923972
>That's easy, just kill any sleeper over retirement age to free up souls for the new kids.
Mage "death panels" and mass executions. What could go wrong?
It also wouldn't totally deal with the effects of an increasing birth rate, only slow down the "soul deficit" problem.
>>44923762
>Lasombra, or just "The Shadow"
>Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows.
>>44924060
Sterilize anyone born on a weekend
Hey /cofd/, wanted to ask a quickie question.
For my Hunter game, I'm trying to figure out how to stat things like mages and vampires using the Hunter books like Witch Finders, Night Stalkers, etc.
So when creating "horrors", a mage's "Merit: Gnosis" a vampire's "Merit: Potency" and a werewolf's "Merit: Primal Urge" are all replaced by their Potency Rating under the new CofD system, right?
>Get rid of the fourth PC for the third time
>[Screams internally]
Help me, why am I undermining my own game!?
What do you do when you're worried about a player? I've gone through three players now and the game hasn't even started. The first seemed uninterested and bored and couldn't even come up with a concept, the second was insecure and worried and seemed to afraid to make a decision so I let her sit out, and the most recent one we just seriously don't get along and our play styles are so drastically different.
I had wanted to do group character creation, but that doesn't work out when you swap out half the group before the game even starts.
>>44924111
Also, as an addendum: are the Dread Powers in the Hunter books compatible (as in, "balanced") with a CofD game? Looks like almost all of the Dread Powers in the CofD book are only one dot, whereas almost every Dread Power in the Hunter books are more than one dot.
>>44924111
>>44924140
Hunter enemies are for Hunters and mortals only, they're wonky
>>44924111
Yes, basically. Honestly, I think the whole "you have a merit that lets you spend more Willpower" is a poor way of handling it, and along with Potency all monsters should have Energy as well, which is the replacement for Vitae, Mana, whatever. Much easier to handle than extra Willpower per turn.
>>44924140
They're not one dot, they're dotless. There's a difference.
Also, Dread Powers are inherently not "balanced" as such, because they're for monster creation. They're like Numina. Most of the Hunter Dread Powers are kind of just... the Rank is an additional +1 to the roll. Not really necessary at all.
Feel free to also use whatever you like for Dread Powers. I've given a Slasher Physical Disciplines. They weren't a Ghoul or anything, they just had Vigor 2, Resilience 2, Celerity 1.
>>44923972
>>44924060
>just kill any sleeper over retirement age to free up souls for the new kids.
>Mage "death panels" and mass executions.
As a proud Mystagogue, I approve this message!
>>44924130
You have a few options:
1. Play with the group of three that you have before they stop caring and the game falls apart.
2. Learn how to screen players better, and settle for the old fashioned "character creation as homework" style to make sure the game gets off the ground.
>>44924156
Not true. Hunter monster creation is great, and also the inspiration for most of the monsters in 2e.
>>44923655
Yes, you can create a ghost from someone without a soul. If you steal someone's soul as a mage and then they die while soulless, they've got the same chance of leaving a ghost behind as anyone else.
Souls exist in Twilight I see to recall.
If someone went in a dead spot where there was no Twilight, would they suffer the Soulless condition whilst in it?
>>44924546
>Souls exist in Twilight I see to recall.
I... No.
>>44924546
There are no places without Twilight. Period. Twilight isn't a place, it's a state of being.
>>44924513
Thanks. Does the new Mage 2e core or scheduled supplements answer any other of the earlier soul-related questions:
Are there a fixed number of souls?
Do they originate (or return) to the Supernal Realms or somewhere else?
Do people's souls reincarnate to other people?
Can regular mages or archmasters create souls, and if so, how?
>>44923655
>Mage cosmology
>seeking out answers to questions really best left unanswered
There are no definitive answers, and learning this simple lesson will probably get you killed, likely sooner rather than later. Welcome to Mage.
>>44925042
But there are dead spots, so they prevent things in Twilight from going intothem instead of being an absence of Twilight as a place itself.
>>44925041
Hmm.....
>>44925067
None of those are answered in existing books.
Except the last one, which is answered as "nope".
>>44925194
Beings do not enter or exit Twilight, they ARE twilight. It's a state of being (and different for each type of entity, ghosts, spirits, goetia, angels, etc.
>>44925476
But there is something in the books that means there is No Twilight Here. so since Twilight ins't a place, that place prevents things that ARE twilight from entering it.
Can Werewolves use Mana / convert Mana from a Hallow into Essence, or are The Dowsers (Hunter, Witchfinders) pissy about people using Loci too?
>>44925712
Nope. They can't use Mana.
>>44923897
Or "Brujah".The Brujah are actually how I first discovered WoD: I was reading up on different monsters from various folklore. I was trying to see if there was anything about the term "brujah" that set them apart from european style witches, when Google led me to a VtM character sheet.
>>44925616
>But there is something in the books that means there is No Twilight Here
Where in the books and what's the precise reference? It also might not apply the same in 2e which appears to more clearly define the nature of twilight.
>>44925853
Demon
>No Twilight (•):Within the bolthole, the state of Twilight does not exist. Any ephemeral being that comes inside is automatically fully Manifested. This only applies once they’re inside (so, for example, they can still get in if the bolthole also has a Trap Door).
Do any mage books besides Imperial Mysteries discuss the Principle, Empyrean or other potential dimensions"higher" than the Supernal Realms?
>>44925878
The description is odd and inconsistent with Dave's explanation of twilight.
All that apparently happens is that ephemeral beings in twilight materialize in the indicated space. As explicitly stated, such beings can enter the space.
I also imagine that mages could easily duplicate the effect with low levels of the pertinent Arcana (Death, Spirit and Mind).
>>44925878
Did you even read what you quoted? It doesn't prevent Twilight beings from entering it, it literally makes them as material as anything else in the bolthole.
>>44924446
I don't think I even referenced the H:tV Dread Powers when writing the Dread Powers for W:tF 2e, and it's my stuff for W:tF that then got used as the basis for Dread Powers in the CofD core.
(my memory is a bit patchy though so I can't remember if I cracked open the Vigil book at any point to check)
>>44924546
Soul slaves exist in Twilight, but soul slaves are the result of idigam being able to do a... thing to human souls rather than that being their natural state.
>>44925712
Werewolves can't normally do that, no, though there might be some Lodges that have developed such an arcane capability.
>>44925067
No
Five out of six Mage Orders believe so
How would you tell?
No, and possibly.
>>44925989
Some rare spirits can manipulate Mana and souls.
I imagine if werewolves (Bone Shadows?) were unusually interested in the phenomena, they could craft some applicable high-level fetishes. However, they would appear to have very limited usefulness and probably not worth the cost.
However, I can certainly see why some *mages* might want to craft such fetishes, particularly less than Wise Thyrsus. (I really hope mage fetish creation rules are in the new core and expanded in Signs of Sorcery),
>>44926127
>Do people's souls reincarnate to other people?
>How would you tell?
Experimentation. Lots and lots of invasive, painful experimentation on human Sleepers subjects.
Any determined Mystagogue knows that sometimes animal testing is necessary to reveal greater Truths.
>Do souls originate (or return) to the Supernal Realms or somewhere else?
>Five out of six Mage Orders believe so
Which Order doesn't believe souls begin and end in the Supernal? Seers? Free Council?
Also, is a belief in dimensions above the Supernal, such as the Empyrean, considered a standard part of mage cosmology and understanding or more a crackpot theory?
>>44925041
They do. But they can't be manipulated except by things that are explicitly capable of it.
Hey guys, I noticed that we were missing one of the Hunter books, so I bugged my friend to hook me up, and I'm sharing so that someone can update the mega.nz repository.
http:// www.mediafire.com/download/obfupgy9a7s3qs4/Hunter+The+Vigil+-+Mortal+Remains .pdf
I needed to drop by anyway to grab the CofD book since I need it for a game. Cheers.
>>44923547
>For instance, I assume any master of Death could determine if a soulless person could still leave a ghost.
>Master
Knowing spells are first dot, anon.
>>44928259
I don't believe a Knowing spell could reveal such information. Such a spell could reveal if a person had a soul (or ghost) and its condition, but whether a soulless person could leave a ghost would require fairly simple experimentation (to the extent the info wasn't already common knowledge).
>>44920950
You probably haven't screwed up too badly.
Are you going to a troupe LARP or an interconnected LARP that's pat of the Mind's Eye Society, One World by Night or Underground Theatre?
Is it Masquerade or Requiem?
Any info on what they're running/how long they've been running/etc.?
>>44925878
>>44925853
And the Underworld, where there's no state of Twilight, and everything exists in the same phase.
>>44925989
Dread Powers are in Demon and Blood and Smoke as well.
>>44926802
I don't even know if the person who owns the Mega is still around.
>>44920950
How much do you like abandoned asylums and nuclear submarines?
>>44926318
>Which Order doesn't believe souls begin and end in the Supernal? Seers? Free Council?
>Also, is a belief in dimensions above the Supernal, such as the Empyrean, considered a standard part of mage cosmology and understanding or more a crackpot theory?
I believe the Free Council, with their more human-centric worldview, would probably dissent from the view that souls are created in the Supernal Realms.
The belief in "higher" realms than the Supernal is also probably rare among mages. The Supernal already represents the symbolic essence of everything. Interest in such a theory would similarly likely be minimal as mages have no means to explore or investigate such a dimension or theory.
>>44928598
Maybe he'll meet-up with Dracula.
If he does, I hope he congratulates him on his new position at WW, wishes him the very best of luck, and then politely suggests that he finish reading the damned draft of Mage 2e and approve it instead of spending inordinate amounts of time dressing-up as a vampire and acting like a 1990's goth.
>>44929877
>asking the creative director of White Wolf to not dress up like a vampire
Really, you might as well ask for the mountains to move. Rich Thomas used to go to work dressed up as a Toreador every day.
>>44928486
All spells that are intended solely to reveal existing information are Knowing spells.
It might require some Reach, but it's still hypothetically doable by any Initiate.
can the demon form rivet gun fire on full auto...?
>>44929982
I absolutely have no objections to Dracula dressing however he wishes.
However, I simply would appreciate that he perform some of the essential functions of his new job, specifically reading and approving Mage 2e, before he plays vampire dress-up and engages in his gothy shenanigans..
>>44930605
To be fair, the Vampire LARP he's planning is the beta test for the whole One World of Darkness project. For better or worse, that's top priority, and the one that'll probably pay off the most if it works out.
>>44930903
So when is this LARP gonna be overwith so he can rubber-stamp Mage already?
So running my second prelude tonight, I'm wondering just how many people bother with them, and for those of you who DO run preludes, what do you do and how do you handle it? Is it before they became a vampire/werewolf/wizard/faerie/whatever? Is it how they became what they are? Is it being early on? Just some random happening in their fantasy life unrelated to the main plot? Do you use it to teach new players in a tutorial (like I'm doing)?
Do vampires automatically fall torpid when they hit full lethal damage, or can they hold on to consciousness with stamina rolls like mortals can?
>>44931546
Everyone falls unconscious without help if they're in full Lethal. Vampires aren't Sin-eaters or Prometheans, but they at least don't bleed out.
>>44931917
I thought you just started taking damage every minute or so after you got up to aggravated?
>>44932120
Once you hit full lethal damage, you're effectively dead. Anybody except a PC will definitely be counted as such, but a PC who has a fighting chance would be subject to the damage/minute, aka bleeding out.
Note: I'm not looking at a rule book, but based on what's been given and what I remember from the book, what I've said seems like a pretty logical conclusion.
>>44932186
With mook humans that's how I handle it, if I even give them the benefit of non down and dirty combat, but with the variety of horrible beasties the group fight, they usually keep fighting until they're pushed to full agg, damage-penalties be damned.
>>44932186
And obviously PCs of splats like Vampires are subject to torpor and other shit. At that point, though, they're almost certainly unconscious, at the very least; they'd start rolling stamina+resolve or something the moment their last box got filled with bashing damage, with an -1/round added if they're somehow still up after hitting full lethal unless they're a splat that doesn't require blood to stay alive.
>>44932120
You pass out with no save and then you bleed out every minute, with one lethal level being upgraded to Aggravated each time.
>>44932186
Pretty much. Though keep in mind that it's actually pretty hard to outright kill someone in WoD. I've never actually had a fight with a mortal that ended in someone dead.
>>44932312
It's actually just Stamina, and you roll each turn.
>>44932239
Most supers still go down at full Lethal, and get woozy and need to roll Stamina at full bashing. The only exceptions are Sin-eaters and Prometheans. Werewolves only stay up in Gauru (and if they take agg they go Gauru, though I don't know if I'd count bleeding out for that).
>>44931258
I run preludes. I set them just a little bit before and right after they become the supernatural splat, and I mostly use them to set up major aspects of the plot of the campaign to come. Introduce a major NPC in one, set up a potential plotline in another, put in a Macguffin in yet one more, that sort of thing. Aside from that, I mostly keep preludes player focused, and let them take the wheel. Most of the time I come away from them with a few new NPC and plotline ideas.
>>44932510
At the moment I'm mostly doing preludes as a "get to know your Wolfblooded" thing. Just a little get-together for the players to play their character, get into that skin, and to know what their Wolfblooded are.
>>44932746
That works. The prelude isn't just a beginning to their characters, it's the beginning to the campaign as well. Treat each prelude as the pilot episode of your chronicle: figure out what works and what doesn't, introduce what's necessary, and get a feel for the play-style of the players. That way, when the real first session rolls around, you're not establishing momentum, you're building up on it. It also helps to have an established time frame around your preludes. For my Mage chronicle, I had my Mages Awaken on the same day, at different times, and that ended up playing a part in the chronicle.
The nWoD official sheet is finally in Roll20. Anybody else disappointed it doesn't have Demon or WtF2e?
Other than, it seems pretty good; better than most of the other nWoD/CofD sheets available for roll20.
>>44932861
I'm curious, does anybody else do preludes as a one-on-one thing?
I've done it, myself, once, for a Demon game, and my Werewolf game's ST did it for us. In both cases, it served to help the players figure out their characters a bit, as well as get a feel of the setting/plot.
Granted, the Demon one didn't go so well, but that was because my players were all people who didn't like me and weren't fans of World of Darkness in general.
>>44932939
I'm doing one on one preludes. I was under the impression they were supposed to be one on ones.
>>44932861
Yeah. I don't want to just jump in "now go do a thing because there's rumours".
>>44932874
havent we had WTF 2E For ages on roll20
>>44932939
When I ran Changeling, I did preludes as one-on-ones, starting them as human and working right up to their capture. Then we jumped to the day of their escape, still one-on-one. I did it this way because the events of each individual prelude would be referenced later.
>>44933092
There's an existing sheet for WtF2e, but it's horribly made and obviously done by someone who wanted WtF2e to be more like WtA
It has Garou name at the top, and a bunch of shit that's inconsistent with the actual book
My guess is it was made before the 2e book came out, using guesswork based on Open Dev posts and wishful thinking
How is VtM GURPS? I mean, ignoring how GURPS usually goes.
>>44933580
Oh shit, that's great. If I switch out from using one character sheet to another, will that old shit be lost?
>>44933712
The info will still be there if you switch back to the old sheet(save maybe repeatable stuff), because it's stored in the third tab of the journal page.
Whether or not it'll transfer over to the new sheet, though, is entirely dependent on what sheet you're switching to/from, because it depends on what the people who made them called the various attributes.
>>44933882
I would be switching over from the 2E God Machine Chronicle sheets to it, might work?
>>44932874
The official one is really sick and nice-looking, yeah, but I feel like the uglier ones are more convenient to actually use. They support adding more lines, for one. And shit is grouped according to how it's relevant.
>>44930404
RAW, no. It's another one of those places where the technology of LITERALLY GOD falls short of shit humans built back in the 1910's.
>b-but it was a tool, not a weapon
But when you have the capability to move galaxies, is it really that much of a hassle to make your workers' tools more efficient? Or allow them to fly faster than a pigeon on opiates? Can the God-Machine really not see ANY advantage, compared to the trivial effort it should be to him, to making Form abilities more useful?
I get it that this is ultimately all for game balance, but it cheapens the setting. I wouldn't mind if they went full Kult with this and said that the God-Machine isn't actually mechanical, just incomprehensible and the human mind sees machines because that's how it filters those sights, but nope. The God-Machine and its servants are purely physical and technological. And inconsistent about it.
>but doesn't the inconsistency make it spooky and alien and mysterious?
No, it makes it stupid.
>>44934629
I don't understand this post at all. For one thing, it assumes that Demons are the same as Angels exactly. Angels don't have Angelic Forms. They just are. The Demonic Form is a pale imitation of what they once were. For instance, Angels aren't physical, they're ephemeral. You can also change and modify a Demonic Form, while Angels don't.
Also, "this is how you interpret it" would be dumb. I'd prefer if the God-Machine in the past used different forms of technology as opposed to a relatively modern notion of it, but I love the idea of a machine God that's literally a machine God.
But more than that, I don't understand the conclusions you make to begin with.
mage 2e when
>>44934723
Give it a few weeks. Then it might be out.
>>44934723
when dracula is done with his european larp bullshit, apparently.
>>44934629
>Can the God-Machine really not see ANY advantage, compared to the trivial effort it should be to him, to making Form abilities more useful?
No, because for all its power, it's still just a machine. It's not an actual thinking being, just the sum of all its parts working off of whatever it got programmed to do. That's all the big cosmic plan in the CofD is, and that's all it will ever be.
Going full Kult with it doesn't work because the God-Machine isn't as much of a Demiurge figure as it is Friend Computer on a delriate-tranq cocktail.
>>44934679
Telling us that God uses physical technology, and then describing its capabilities in detail is silly in the first place, since it's far from inconceivable better technology might be discovered during the game's own lifetime, at which point everyone around the table awkwardly realizes that "welp, we've surpassed god. Pats on the back?"
Doing it and then detailing the capabilities of God's technology and IT'S CRAP is just asking for this stupidity. And that is all WITHOUT getting into issues of actual consistency, e.g. how could a logical being for whom it should be thoughtlessly trivial to make its servants infinitely more useful not do that.
>>44934740
Hopefully before then, because the LARP's in March: http://www.solmukohta.org/
>>44934771
Oh, we're totally fucked then.
>>44934757
The God-Machine isn't God. It's not even a lower case god. It's explicitly not omniscient, omnipresent, or even omnipotent. It just happens to be a powerful machine with a strong influence on Humanity.
>>44934757
How is it crap? You're basically saying that God should outfit all his worker drones with plasma canons. Plus, you're assuming the God-Machine--for whom angels are stated several times to be difficult and resource intensive to create--is like the omnipotent God of Abrahamic religion. You're really just saying "GOD SHOULD GIVE ALL HIS ANGELS HYPER MACHINE GUN LASERS THAT ARE THE BEST WEAPONS IN THE GAME!" but you're making a lot of assumptions that are incorrect.
1. The God-Machine doesn't design the Demon Form, that's more a product of the Fall, same as all the other Demon elements.
2. The God-Machine creates Angels for a purpose, and doesn't load them up with ridiculous amounts of weapons or power just because he can.
3. The God-Machine DOES take effort to create Angels, which is why some of them get stored between missions, and why others get scrapped for parts.
4. The God-Machine's Angels are ephemeral beings, not physical. Demons are Physical because they wrap themselves in their Covers and "defect to humanity".
5. You still haven't really given a reason for why you feel Rivet Arm can't autofire, which was the original question.
>>44934814
>God should outfit all his worker drones with plasma canons
That would hold more water if all Demonic Form abilities had just been repurposed tools. Rivet Gun, sure - G-M is a little short sighted and thought it could keep things simple. But what about shit that's explicitly meant for apocalyptic feats of destruction, like the Annihilator Cannon? It's impressive compared to the other angelic popguns, but it still falls laughably short of any weapon humans have devised in order to perform the exact same function nearly a hundred years ago.
>>44934777
On the bright side, the event looks cool. I'd do some European LARP on a cruise ship.
>>44934814
>2. The God-Machine creates Angels for a purpose, and doesn't load them up with ridiculous amounts of weapons or power just because he can.
It sounds "ridiculous" to you, but that's just because you don't have the tech to crumple the fabric of time and space or build Dyson spheres. It's a question of efficiency. Amount of effort you need to put in, compared to the amount of benefit you'll gain from doing something. The problem is that when you get to a certain level of technology, which the G Machine supposedly did, ANY amount of effort on an individual scale is meaningless. The question isn't "why would it put lasers on its angels", it's "why not put lasers on its angels, considering its all the same to it and lasers might come in handy."
>>44934814
You know, I wasn't part of this discussion and I haven't read D:tD, but if the God is supposed to be purely about physics and all how does it make sense for its angels to be spiritual beings?
>>44934878
The God Machine only equips or builds angel for the takes at hand. It puts minimal effect to the tasks it set out to do. It basically cut what ever corner it can because it runs on a cosmic scale.
>>44934851
Form powers are a pale comparison to what they might have been as Angels. And no man-portable explosive missile weapon can fit on someone's arm. Hell, as far as I can tell 3+Primum is a pretty strong blast.
>>44934878
Did you miss the part where the book explains the God-Machine can't do whatever it wants willy nilly? It needs Infrastructure. You're working from the assumption that it can do whatever it wants instantly with no effort. That's simply not true.
>>44934900
The God-Machine isn't God. And it works within the metaphysics of the setting, which is why the angels run off of the same energy source that spirits, ghosts, and other spooky creatures use. It's basically just hijacking an available energy source. And since it's energy for ephemeral beings, the angels are ephemeral beings.
It technically *is* physical, it's just a different kind of physical.
>>44934958
>no man-portable explosive missile weapon can fit on someone's arm
Yet. Say we invent something like this in the coming couple years (far from unlikely, they design pretty crazy shit), would the Demons advance or stay behind?
>>44934900
It not purly physical, it transcends time and space. It may use the laws of magic without fear by altering the arcana physics of the universe. What ever the god machine is it bevond the comprehension of everything else.
>>44934967
So it's omnipotent you when it needs to and crap when it doesn't.
You're right. That is pretty handy. For the writers.
>>44934977
Think of it in scope. Can you see the cells of your body without add? The god machine work in that fashion it need infrastructure to interact and see the smaller things in the world.
Anyone wonder what the Demon Stereotypes of Beasts would be? I have exactly one idea for one of them, here it is:
>Destroyer: "Get the fuck out of my house or I'll fucking erase you."
>>44935017
>Analyst: "they had meaning once. Now their purpose is irrelevant."
>>44935017
Judging from the ST's guide?
>I bet the God-Machine is behind this!
or
>I wonder if I can USE this...
>>44934871
And how much will such a cruise cost? If their LARPs are on cruises and other such things how are people that don't shit money going to get involved?
>>44935092
Too fuckin' bad
>>44920659
>/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General
>>44935606
People wanting to know about this new game coming out are going to come looking for Chronicles of Darkness. Old players are probably going to look for WoD first. What would you rather we do? Even if we go with "Realms of Darkness General", we'd still need to signal that, hey, this is where you get CofD and WoD and nWoD and oWoD info.
Geist question:
How should I handle Rank for Sin-eaters?
For Werewolves, they have an effective Rank measured by their Renown. At 4, 8, 13, and 19 Renown, they go up a Rank from 1 to 5, and deal Aggravated damage to any Spirits below their Rank. Sin-eaters have something similar (as mentioned in the core Ephemeral Entities section on Honourary Rank). I'm not really sure how to measure that, though.
If I use the Keys-like-Renown method (which I've already done plenty of so far) then I've got at least 35 dots. Should I just roll with it, since it's unlikely for a character to get all 35 dots of Keys? Or find out a better way of measuring Rank? If so, what?
>>44936351
This homebrew is so off the rails it's not even worth saving anymore.
>>44935686
I think we should divide the generals, gas the fucking old worlders, edition war now
>>44937195
What makes you say that? Again, Sin-eaters in 2e are intended to have an effective Rank, and since they interact with Ephemeral Beings, they have reason to.
>Honorary Rank
>Some supernatural creatures that are closely related to a form of ephemeral being have “honorary” Rank in the appropriate otherworldly hierarchy; Sin-Eaters are all Bound to a ghost, for example, and werewolves are treated with respect by spirits according to their Renown.
>Technicalities, in this case, count, but only against the ephemeral entity. A werewolf who “outranks” a minor spirit will deal devastating wounds to it with his claws, but a high-Rank spirit can’t burn that werewolf by touching him. There are other ways to assert dominance, and high-Rank entities are quite capable of showing the half-fleshed who’s boss.
Why do you feel this homebrew is off the rails and "not even worth saving"? Not to toot my own horn, but at least a few people are interested in seeing how it develops, and like what I've shown off so far, which is why I'm still doing it after a good two months or so.
>>44937315
Bear in mind the Geists themselves have Rank - a Geist is a Rank 3, 4, or 5 ghost.
Now, you would have to figure out how to figure out what Rank a particular Sin-Eater's Geist is, and how much of that trickles down to the Sin-Eater, but it's a place to start.
>>44937973
I figure giving up their Rank would be the cost of the Bargain. Geister technically give up a lot: Autonomy, powers, Rank... But in return they get to actually experience things through a fleshy medium, instead of the cold hollow experience of ephemeral existence. Although at the same time, they're more than just Claimed as well, even if Claimed would technically be stronger. Sacrificing power for (mental and physical) stability, where they don't mutate into horrid abominations.
Plus there's no sense in not sticking with the typical PC character creation where applicable.
>>44937315
>>44937973
Could handle it kind of like Generation is handled in cWoD Vampire - have a "Geist Rank" merit that determines your Geist's rank as a ghost, and therefore what benefits you get as a result.
If you want it to cost more for balance reasons, you could even have it be a 1-5 merit, with the number of dots equaling your Geist's rank; then say starting characters get a free 3-dot version of the merit and can choose to purchase it higher if they wish.
>>44938157
That would mean it's trivially easy to outrank a demigod, though.
>>44937973
Are Kerberoi ghosts, or something different? Do they have higher Rank now? They used to be just Rank=Rivers deep.
>>44938157
Well, like Dave said, there's a matter of how much of a Geist's rank "trickles down" to the Sin-Eater. Even if your Geist is rank 5, that's only going to come in to play in certain situations, right?
So having a Rank 5 Geist might be advantageous if you're, say, in the Underworld trying to negotiate with a Kerberoi, but it wouldn't necessarily make you more powerful in general.
>>44938308
The thing about Honourary Rank is that you deal Aggravated Damage to whatever's lower Rank than you.
>>44938373
Two full Ranks lower.
And that might be specific to werewolves? I forget.
>>44923948
Almost certainly, its just a matter of having enough dots and making the spell/ritual match your Paradigm.
>>44938373
But it's not your rank, it's your Geist's - you could pretty easily say that the damage rule doesn't apply because YOU are dealing the damage, not the Geist (this could even create design space for, say, making it do agg damage only when your Geist is in control, or something similar).
I think you should work the Geist's rank in there somewhere, it's your homebrew and Geists/ghosts don't work like Spirits so you can fudge it however you want for balance reasons.
>>44938446
>>44938373
That's werewolf-specific. A Rank 5 spirit doesn't do Agg to a rank 3 werewolf or a rank 3 spirit, unless they've got numina or influence that lets them do so
>>44938515
>Paradigm
>>44923948
>Purified
He's talking nWoD, Gayskull, Paradigm doesn't matter
Mages in nWoD can't affect souls directly, so while you might be able to use Death+Spirit to make a weird ghost-magath, I don't think shoving it back in the corpse the ghost rose from would make a purified. Probably just a claimed, if anything.
>>44938109
>>44936351
I always imagined that the sin-eater can only handle so much of the Geist's power and have to grow into its Rank.
So how about you have the sin-eater start at rank 2 sense sineater are at least equal to thinking ghost. Also maybe have his rank go up for every 5 key dots the sin-eater has.
So while the sin-eater will gain his rank faster then a werewolf it can be easily shown it because of the geist.
I'm trying to come up with a good Mage: the Ascension chronicle and I'd like to know what you folks think of this plot hook:
>There are rumors of an un-tapped node opening in the Colorado Rockies
>PC's find these rumors, but also find that the Traditions/Technocracy have them
>Everyone races to Colorado, tries to find the node in the snowy mountains
>Terrain is hazardous, winter storms are a bitch, plus there are Sleepers running around skiing
>Node has some BAD spirits (wendigo maybe?) around it, might need to work with your enemies to take care of the spirits
Obviously I'll need to flesh out more than this, but I think its a decent start. What do you think? Am I working too small for new mages? Is this something that a young mage is more likely to let their superiors handle?
>>44938729
On the surface, it's a basic scouting mission. I could see new Mages to a Chantry or some other organization being put in that kind of assignment. Learning to look for Nodes are important, and learning to fight for it even more so. I think it works.
>>44938861
Okay, cool beans. I want to include some natural dangers, like bears, wolves, and mountain lions. Would normal animals pose a threat to a starting Mage character? Would a blizzard in the Rocky Mountains?
>>44939021
I'm a bit rusty on the Spheres, but it should be a decent challenge. Like all Mage games, be prepared to improvise when a clever Mage manages to overcome one of your obstacles, especially an obstacle you were expecting to be extremely difficult. A starting Mage probably isn't going to be powerful enough to totally overcome the elements and the natural world, but they will surprise you. If you want, you can use the blizzard as a looming threat, and a time limit. Of course, it won't really be a time limit, since you were planning to throw a blizzard at them, but if your players think it is, it can amp up the tension.
Plus, you then get a cool set piece where your Mages see Trads/Techs lurking in the snow as the blizzard sets in.
How interesting are mummies as antagonists for hunter?
>>44939264
Ooooh, I like that! Like the PC's are taking shelter from the blizzard in a cave and they hear Men in Black outside, looking for them. Thanks!
>>44934977
It has never stated to be omnipotent. It's very powerful, and very limited, at the same time.
>>44939360
Mummies are essentially a two part enemy. You have the Mummy themselves, who are almost untouchably powerful early on and shrink to low to mid-tier power near the end of their Descent. Then you have the Mummy's Cult, which is always around, integrated into some part of society, and always scheming.
Therefore, Mummies and their Cults cab make for great long term enemies. A Cell could be fighting a Mummy's Cult for months, and not realize that they're dealing with one until they're trapped inside the tomb. Alternatively, the Cell could put down a weakened Mummy and battle their Cult to prevent the Mummy from coming back. There's a lot of opportunity there.
Of course, that's just the Arisen. The Decieved and the Shuhanksen bring their own dangers, and let's not get started on creatures like the Ahmkat.
>>44937973
Heya Dave!
A question about the process here: Does the Approval-process involve you at all, or does your work just vanish into a black hole, to emerge weeks (months?) later?
>>44939021
I think one way to challenge mages is to give them a little more than they can handle. Wolves in the woods, not much of a problem. Exposure in a blizzard, not much of a problem. Lost in the wilderness, not much of a problem. But lost in the woods during a blizzard while being hounded by wolves...what do you focus on first? They're going to solve their issues with magic no matter what, so make the drama be in the consequences of their decision making process.
>>44939599
Definitely! And don't forget that your rivals are also gunning for the node as well, so your cabal might have to deal with $ynidcate enforcers alongside the blizzard, wolves, and getting lost in the mountains.
>>44939651
>$yndicate enforcers
Now all I can think of is the cliche 80s movie plot where Rich Douchington and his girlfriend Luxuria tells the plucky skiers that their lame ski resort is now going to be Mega-Mart mountain and they have to get out, forcing the plucky skiers to challenge them to The Big Race.
Except, you know, Rich Douchington and Luxuria are $yndicate agents distracting the Sleeper skiers while the MIB secures the land and they buy up the mountain anyways.
I'm starting my first vampire the masquerade game, at home.
It's a Sabbat game.
I'm playing a Gangrel, with fort and protean to begin with, 2 dots each.
Other players are a Tzimise(fuck spelling) hacker "genderfuck" whatever that is, and a Lasombre who will most likely be the biggest edgy sperglord I've ever met.
Pack also features the ST's old character, who I believe is a malkavian, far more powerful than any of us.
How can I make sure these guys know that my gangrel wont put up with their shenanigans?
Also, general first timer tips?
>>44939878
My character was an environmental studies major, who collected mushrooms and pressed flowers, before being embraced.
Since being Embraced, she turned to eco-terrorism, before being forced to pack up with these jackasses.
>>44939878
By telling them?
>>44939914
My gaming groups generally ignore personal warnings and requests.
It's a pain, so it generally has to be handled in game, no matter what we're playing.
>>44938720
>>44938556
Note that Werewolves get honorary spirit Rank because they're inherently integrated into the natural workings of the Shadow, and the fundamentally hierarchical nature of spirits and the Shadow is probably its biggest (or one of its biggest) defining traits.
I don't think ghosts and the Underworld are fundamentally built around food chains of stronger and weaker, and the like.
>>44939878
>It's a Sabbat game.
Oooooooooh boy.
>Pack also features the ST's old character, who I believe is a malkavian, far more powerful than any of us.
Oooooooooooooooooooh boy.
>How can I make sure these guys know that my gangrel wont put up with their shenanigans?
Out of character, let them know "hey, I'm playing a no-nonsense character, so don't go overboard right away, OK?". In character, be the no-nonsense RA of your Sabbat coterie. Set some ground rules IC, don't expect them to be followed OOC.
As for being a first timer, here's some tips: remember that everyone's here to have fun. If someone isn't having fun, and that includes you, it's important to have a discussion about why. Good communication is the key to good gaming. Try to specialize, if you can. The Freebie points will help round you out so you're decent at most things, but something you really want to be good at and go for it.
>>44939980
Your right this ghost don't work off food chain as much as spirits do. But the do work off of age the older the ghost is the stronger it become and last I checked geist are old.
>>44940354
Yeah, I just mean shoehorning in "Sin-Eaters get honorary Rank so they can do Agg damage to punier ghosts" doesn't make much sense given that ghosts are much less about power hierarchies and violence than spirits are.
>>44940432
True but the system as of CofD does have it for ghost. The aggravated damage is for them as well. So it makes some sense that a guy with a up and coming God of Death is more effective against ghost.
>>44938446
>>44938543
>>44938556
>>44939980
>>44940432
Again, this is from the Chronicles of Darkness corebook >>44937315. Sin-eaters are already said to have an Honourary Rank. It's not just Werewolf specific, Sin-eaters get it, too. I'm just trying to decide what it should be in this homebrew. Also, keep in mind that ghosts ARE Heirarchical now. Kerberoi may even be high Rank Ghosts.
>>44938543
Yeah, but Geister have a Rank when they're ephemeral beings. Part of what I'm trying to do is make the Sin-eater and Geist truly be a gestalt being. They're not separate things. The other homebrew doesn't really do this, and actually makes it worse, with Geists that not only don't have any real weight or meaning ludonarratively, they also just... Manifest outside of the Sin-eater like a Stand and give you extra actions ("Mage supremacists may now commence whining").
I don't want that. I want it to be a separate thing. The Geist gives up a lot of what it is to become Bound. A Geist with high Rank itself is likely to give a sin-eater more starting Psyche (or even just be out of reach for a starting character), but things like it's Rank or Attributes shouldn't really come into play. It's giving up power for fleshy Passions, whatever form that takes.
>>44939878
>>44940065
Honestly? Remember that "That Guy" is whoever goes against the will of the group. If the group wants to be a genderqueer sociopath with a shapeshifting spacevirus and an "edgy sperglord", that's what they want to do. The ST playing a character in the group who's doing more than just dishing out quests and being a mentor is a little worrying, though.
If you don't think you'll get along with the other PCs, either make a character that will or don't play. Otherwise it's a recipe for disaster.
>>44940853
>Remember that "That Guy" is whoever goes against the will of the group. If the group wants to be a genderqueer sociopath with a shapeshifting spacevirus and an "edgy sperglord", that's what they want to do.
Nah, that still makes them That Guy. It's an objective term, not subjective. You can have an entire table of That Guys.
>>44940934
Maybe. Either way, the player who makes a character who shuts down other people's fun is not in the right.
There are plenty of people whose way of gaming goes against how I feel the game should be played. I avoid gaming with them, instead of joining their bright shiny consequence free game of high power and telling them they're doing it wrong. I only tell them they're doing it wrong if they keep telling me how cool their game is and how jealous I should be.
>>44934965
Presumably, they'd advance, because of the Fall. Angels wouldn't (although if they suddenly did start "catching up" it would make a decent plot hook), but the fallen aren't angels - they're detached from the GM and free from it's arbitrary restrictions.
They may have to advance post-fall, though. (IE not starting off with such a weapon, but being able to recreate and incorporate such a device into their demon form after seeing one)
>>44940432
But ghosts *do* do that.
>>44940853
>Kerberoi may even be high Rank Ghosts.
They are. A Kerberos is a Rank 6+ ghost.
>>44939573
I wait with bated breath for Martin and co's comments. I'll only find out when they've read Mage and come back to Rich with any required changes. Until we know if I have to change anything, Mike can't assemble the pdf. So we wait.
>>44941365
Sweet. Seemed a bit lame that the Kerberoi were Death Gods but didn't really show it until deep in the Underworld.
Anything you can tell us about how Mage does Ghosts?
>>44940934
>Nah, that still makes them That Guy. It's an objective term, not subjective.
The objective definition for "That Guy" is "the one guy ruining everyone else's fun". It's just usually that that means they're a dickhead with no social skills.
>>44941365
>A Kerberos is a Rank 6+ ghost.
So straight-up beyond stats, "only Archmaster-tier characters get to play with these" monsters?
That sounds kind of lame.
>>44941423
Do you know if there is there anyone else at White Wolf besides Martin and the CEO? Early reports talk about a third employee maybe being a thing, but all the interviews mostly focus on the other two.
>>44941536
No. "Gods of Death aren't easily defeated by starting characters".
Rank 1 Kerberoi are weaker than most starting characters.
Kerberoi one River deep into the Underworld have only 8 Attribute dots between Power/Finesse/Resistance, one Key, and one dot of Manifestation.
>>44941365
>A Kerberos is a Rank 6+ ghost.
>>44941754
>Rank 1 Kerberoi
???
>>44941825
I meant in 1e. I could have been more clear about that. I was talking about 1e Geist.
Which brings up another question. Dave, am I right in assuming that the Geists in Mage that are Rank 3+ Ghosts aren't getting Keys the way they do in GtS? Same for Kerberos?
>>44941365
Dave I have a conundrum. What happens when a Mage enters a sin-eaters soul is the geist their as a entirety much like a horror? Do they enter the geist & sin-eater soul at the same time? Can the geist defend the soul from intruders? I would love to know your option of this as I have a mage & sin-eater players wanting to figure this out.
>>44941962
I'd be surprised if Geists got any presence in Mage 2e besides "really powerful ghosts". Though what's fun about 2e Ghost cosmology so far is that there's a very very slim chance the a person could have a ghost before they die, that ghost becomes a Geist, and makes the Bargain with themselves when the person dies. In theory, there could be a Sin-Eater that's themselves. Of course, the actual human would have to be near immortal for this to ever work, since I doubt a ghost hits rank 3+ within 20-60 years.
>>44942189
I figure they won't, but that just means that Geists are statted differently in 2e. In 1e they're inherently Spirit-Ghosts, and they always have Keys and Manifestations-as-Numina.
Also, I was thinking of that exact situation earlier. Although I imagine something that causes you to create a Ghost before your Death would be the kind of thing that might make a more powerful Ghost. Or you might be intentionally fucking with spiritual metaphysics using occultism. I could see someone trying to bond their own Ghost to themselves.
Someone in a previous thread also mentioned Self-Claimed. That'd make a good antagonist.
>>44939554
Thank you.
Could you tell more about the The Decieved and the Shuhanksen? In the context of Hunter.
>>44942389
The Shuhanksen are similar to Arisen, with some significant differences. They ride and fall faster than the Arisen, but make up for this by consuming Vessels or, more commonly, human flesh. When consuming humans, they seem to prefer Witches, Sorcerers, or spiritual adepts (i.e., anyone using Benedictions or Castigations) They crave to drive humans to suicide or murder. This appears to be part of some greater purpose, but the Shuhanksen keep silence about what this is, or who leads them. They do seem to hint at having a memory lasting for thousands of years, and those that are able to keep one down long enough to break this silence find that they have perfect memory recall. Using this recall seems to drain the creatures of their lifeforce, and they return to slumber before long. Shuhanksen possess the corpses of the recently dead upon arising, and tend to disguise themselves as the bodies they've taken. Cults are possible but uncommon. These kinds of Mummies are perfect for short term encounters.
The Decieved disguise themselves as whole human beings, but when their magical mask is dropped, reveal themselves to be hideously deformed. This deformation always appears as if two human beings have been fused together. These beings seek to corrupt things, and are often found searching for emotionally powerful forms of art. Tangling with one is very, very dangerous. Strange black angels and near instant anhiliation occur in their wake. They appear to have an obsession with names. They occasionally argue with themselves, as if they are two minds about various things. It is rumored that these Mummies have a stronghold at the ruins of a former city in Italy. Anyone who has attempted to investigate has not returned, which may prove the rumors to be true. If you want to give your players a really bad time, you throw a Decieved at them.
>>44920659
WOD General, a question for you about Demon: the Descent and Changeling: the Lost.
With V:tR, W:tF and M:tF I can grasp the core motivations for a character. What are core motivations for a Demon or a Changeling that are not survival? All I can think of is not getting caught by angels and fae respectfully and helping others to not get caught. Am I missing something?
What are chronicles about those guys usually about?
Thanks.
>>44943443
Demons not only want to hide, they also want to find or establish Hell, which in this case is a very personal goal where an important factor is the separation of the Demon from the God-Machine. This is done by exploring the Interlock, a personal philosophy that grants power. You can't develop the Hell you want and finish your Interlock without acting and getting involved with the world.
Changelings want to either repair their old lives or establish new ones. This usually involves establishing a balance between the Mundane and the Wyrd. What that balance consists of is also personal.
>>44943443
Demons want to tie themselves to the world as much as possible - integrate themselves into the world, rather than to the God Machine. For the most part this means building a life for themselves, as well as building new Covers. Motivations for Demons tend to be very personal based on the sort of life they want.
Changelings are similar - both games are about having finally escaped from an omnipotent god and trying to make something of your life now that you've escaped their shadow.
>>44943620
>>44943723
Thanks. Time to read the books, I guess.
>>44941423
Do mages proficient Spirit or Death also have honorary rank, possibly as an Arcana Attainment or spell?
>>44943880
Other major Demon motivation that isn't explicitly survival is... well... vengeance.
Very often, the process of falling, or outright your catalyst, is things The Machine did that you do not approve. Many demons want to very much "stick it to the man", and the fact that infrastructure can be lootalicious and experience-heavy makes them doubly attractive targets when you consider your safety may ALREADY demand you hit them hard when they're too close or doing something dangerous.
>>44941365
Dave backed up Aspel! The thread doesn't know how to handle it!
>>44943886
IIRC there's a Spirit 5 spell that lets you create your own spirit court. Not sure if it confers a Rank or not.
>>44944674
More like Aspel pointed out something from the book, and Dave agreed it was in the book. Unless you mean the bit about Kerberoi. That was just a guess, but it was a pretty obvious guess.
>>44944674
The thread doesn't really care. Knowledge of the CofD rules and fluff are something that Aspel's actually read up on, it's just the interpretations, implementations, and tone that people argue about. Ghosts have had a hierarchy since they were rated in Power back in the Blue Book. Geist just cemented it. It stands to reason that Sin-Eaters probably have a kind of Honorary Rank among Ghosts based on the Rank of the Ghost. It should probably be something like two steps down for a Sin-Eater proper and full, unadulterated Rank of the Geist when Reverse Possessing or whatever you call it.
Wr20 is totally coming, guys!R-right?
>>44945300
After the LARP
>>44945477
Do you think Dracula keeps a sign on his door that says, "BBL, LARPing"?
>>44945848
I like to imagine that all of the mage drafts get delivered to him on a conveyor belt that after making its way through his office, ends up in the trash since he'll never actually read it.
>>44945848
Nah. It'll be a blood doll in the office like Heather Poe, giving out 'sorry I'm not here' cards.
>>44946075
Well I guess they have to use that Paradox money somehow.
>>44934878
the god-machine has a bias towards secrecy and maintenance of the status quo. razing everything to the ground and vaporizing people with fuckhuge laser weapons is simply not in its style, especially since giving the humans the potential to nab some of that sweet, sweet transcendent tech would considerably upset the balance of power.
>>44945016
I invented the bit about Honorary Rank's effects, and wrote the piece of text he quoted. And yeah, the intention is that Sin-Eaters (should we get around to doing a Geist 2e) will have one.
>>44947929
Still pretty excited about the possibility of a Geist 2e maybe happening in the future. That said, I'm actually glad that Geist 2e wasn't announced for this year, because Hunter's a huge game to update and needs all the peoplepower it can get.
shame the new roll20 wod sheets don't have Demon or Mortal Remains.
>>44947929
Do mages in 2e also have honorary ranks with spirits, ghosts and goetia, possibly as an Arcana Attainment or through spells?
>>44949014
No Demon? Seriously? I thought the official sheets were supposed to be for all lines.
>>44949143
The official sheet is incomplete, sadly. It doesn't have werewolf 2E either, but I think the 1E version has all that you really need.
>>44947929
Did you have an idea of what it would be, or did you just think "I'll figure this out later'?
>>44949312
>did you just think "I'll figure this out later'?
Yup. Lots of things in second-edition's rulesets were earmarked for further expansion, that was one of them.
