Space Marines are suppose to be this super weapon, if they are suppose to be of any consequence, being only 1 million in number in an Imperium that spans 1 million planets.
So that's why I don't really buy the whole bolter armament.
It doesn't make sense, bolter rounds are way too big and clunky.
These Marines, to be as effective as they are suppose to be for their small number, and to stay active for any meaningful amount of time in a battle, need to fire hundreds of thousands of rounds.
They really should be using an energy based rifle. Maybe the plasma rifle. Allows a space marine to fire hundreds of thousands of rounds before recharging, and maybe even file different types of charges based on need (explosive or penetrating plasma).
They had better weapons during the Crusade.
bolters are cool. Thats the reason.
>incoming uneeded lengthy discussion on 40k realism
>>47383613
They still used the bolter as the go to standard weapon.
>>47383621
OP here.
The most ridiculous suspension of disbelief is that a company of Ultramarines put up any fight at all against a Tyranid Hive Fleet.
For that to make sense, the Ultramarines would each have to carry energy weapons that can machine gun charges with the same power as hydrogen bombs, with near unlimited ammo.
>>47383640
Maybe 40k just isn't for you? Try a harder sci fi.
>>47383640
You calculated it????
yeah starcraft honestly does space marines more realistically;; huge numbers, still die easily to aliens
IIRC the guns they used are railrifles electrically firing small metal spikes.. i imagine they could carry thousands of them
desu OP i get what you're saying, but remember this game comes from the united cuckland where firearm knowledge is a bit shitty
>>47383640
I agree - the numbers are way too of.
Marines used to be numerous, this 1000 marines per Chapter makes them suitable only to spearhead attacks but as a defense force they are laughable unless in a bottleneck situation.
>>47383640
desu i think space marines make most sense in ship boarding actions or close quarters in buildings where one dude really could slaughter hundreds of enemies
the whole pitched battles of dudes carrying bolters and taking cities and shit is kinda preposterious
>>47383724
Agreed.
GW has long fucked up the scale.
If 1000 marines are meant to be more than enough to subdue a system them give them the stats that reflect that. And stop making marines the baseline - every new codex for most factions has to have units/weapons that can easily kill/surpass marines. This makes marines not at all special or powerful.
Inquisitor had it right the way marine stats were ridiculous compared to just about everyone else in the game.
To make it any way believable GW either needed to make the Legions millions strong and the follow up chapters tens/hundreds of thousands strong or stop trying to have us believe a knot of 20 marines can turn back Ork/Tyranid hordes (pic related) without giving them the stats to reflect that.
>>47383640
Space marines are basically assumed to be fighting small battles most of the time, the bolter is fine here because it doesn't need much ammo to see them through a mission.
In general terms the bolter is their standard weapon because it's far simpler to manufacture than plasma weaponry, the bolts can be manufactured by the chapter themselves, bolters don't overload and kill the operator, they explode and fuck up their targets to mess with regeneration and they make a nice loud noise.
Plasma weapons would be better, or volkite weapons which, iirc, was the new standard weapon being rolled out at the time of the heresy, but in the grim darkness of the far future only like 1 world in a million can make plasma weapons and, honestly, you wouldn't want one.
Oh yeah, incidentally they also need to be reloaded after every dozen or so shots.
>>47383897
Yet artwork and backstories clearly _try_ to show them fighting against and actually winning huge waves of enemies.
And speaking of the weaponry: Hellgun, a high powered las-gun would be quite perfect for them. Or its Astartes-grade bigger brother laser weapon.
Bolter sadly is too the baseline weapon, which is sad because it is supposed to be awesome gun in what it does yet it isn't
>>47383604
Ok, you obviously have only come to 40k very recently. Here's some info on Space Marine logistics
>bolter rounds are way too big and clunky
Space Marines have the stamina to carry far more ammo than the average soldier. The backpack they wear is part nuclear reactor for their armour, and the rest is filled with bolter-rounds and grenades. Check out the side protrusions: they're bolter clips ready to be drawn and reloaded.
Obviously they can't carry everything they need though (even with a Rhino following them around for short term needs), all soldiers need resupply eventually. In 90% of situations Space Marines get resupplied from space: drop pods filled with ammo, med-kits, and whatever else they need are dropped right to their position from orbit.
We don't see this illustrated very often in fluff because fundamentally logistics are boring, and covering a space marine in space-webbing doesn't look cool.
>>47383640
>a company of Ultramarines put up any fight at all against a Tyranid Hive Fleet.
If you're talking about Hive Fleet Behemoth, I would remind you of two things:
1) There was the entirety of the Macragge PDF there as well, entrenched in defensive positions designed by the Primarch of Logistics.
2) They lost. Only after the battle in space was won, were re-enforcements able to retake the polar fortress, and they had orbital bombardments and the Imperial Guard to help them.
Fundamentally, there's also a difference in Doctrine between (most) 40k Space Marines and (most) other military units. Space Marines are special forces, designed to strike fast and hard at the most valuable/vulnerable point, and then withdraw. They don't want to fight a protracted battle, and they don't need thousands of rounds because every single round will kill an enemy. If you've gotten to fight space marines in protracted battle, you're already winning. (There are exceptions of course, primarily Death Guard and Iron Warrior traitor legions)
>>47383604
>Space Marines cannot into logistics
Oh look, it's this thread again. There really needs to be a 1d4chan page we can just link to at this stage.
>>47384001
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Space_Marines
Lets just add stuff to there.
I'd keep it in three parts:
The Fluff reasoning why they are awesum
Why they arent in the game
and why they would not be so awesume in real life either
>guys this 40k thing doesn't make sense
rule of cool
>NO IT'S TOTALLY BECAUSE--
no dipshit rule of cool
What's not represented on the battlefield or even in most of the fluff is the hundreds of lobotmised cyborg slaves and dozens of normal human attendants that do the logistic work for the spess muhrines.
Admittedly, 40k is a universe where rule-of-cool runs the show, so the lack of "hard" sci-fi when it comes to the boring nitty-gritty is something that can be excused, particularly in the context of Space Marines, whose mortal human subordinates ("chapter serfs") get pretty much the same treatment as peasant soldiers in medieval chronicles compared to the noble Space Marines.
The argument for energy weapons isn't actually as strong in the 40k universe as it would be in a universe like Star Trek or Star Wars, since even the Imperial Guard's logistically-simple Lasguns have ammunition packs that only have limited charge in them, and conservation of energy still applies, so when you think about it, it evens out in terms of the investment and logistical burden, particularly when the more cumbersome bolter shells are made for far smaller units of elite troops, and they are a significantly more powerful weapon than the common lasgun.
Energy weapons exist in 40k, but the only two that are superior to the bolter as general purpose rifles, the volkite and the plasma guns, suffer from the universe's lack of understanding of advanced tech from millennia previously. In the case of the Volkite, they've lost the understanding of how to build them, and almost all the facilities that made them were destroyed 10 millennia ago, and in the case of plasma, they don't have the wherewithal to build a design that combines reliability and efficiency with power, so the variants they do have are only good in small bursts of fire and are very likely to overheat and spew plasma goop (which is probably not a logistically easy material compared to simple slugs) all over the firer, so "moar dakka" is the only solution.
>>47383604
GW is just really bad at doing the numbers, that's it, that's the whole problem.
Look at the lore and you'll see their skirting away from actually using any real numbers, but that just makes the lore that much more bland. The Tau campaign books gave absolutely no sense of scale what-so-ever. It had some nice bits, but most of it gets dull when all they can write is that tons and tons of Fire Warriors/Imperial Guard/Space Marnies died, etc. after so and so did some genius counter move.
>>47383640
>40k is death metal: the setting - sci-fi knights clash with astral monstrosities as planets are destroyed in a storm of conflict
>"i want to talk about logistics"
Video games are typically more realistic.
>>47384201
>GW is just really bad at doing the numbers, that's it, that's the whole problem.
Summed up here from one of the old Chaos codexes;
>During the middle of the 38th millennium, Angron and fifty thousand Khorne Berzerkers slaughtered their way through Imperial space for over two centuries. This incident became known as the Dominion of Fire. The wars and rebellions the forces of Khorne sparked ravaged over seventy sectors. In the end it took four Space Marine chapters, two Titan legions and more than thirty Imperial Guard regiments to retake what the Imperium had lost. Ninety percent of the area has since been recovered by the forces of Mankind.
A regiment has about 10,000 - 20,000 men in 40k because for some reason GW think regiment = division.
So 20,000 x 30 = 600,000.
600,000 men and 4 chapters of marines stopped a demon primarch and the equivalent of 50 chapters of marines and reconquered 70 sectors worth of worlds from them.
The fucking Axis forces sent 5 million men into Russia at the start of Barbarossa and they still fucking lost.
And this is in a fucking Chaos codex, one where they are trying to talk up Chaos!
It's one of GW's biggest facepalm moments.
>>47383604
>It doesn't make sense, bolter rounds are way too big and clunky.
Bolters work in literally any environment. For an intergalactic military, that is an enormous asset.
>They really should be using an energy based rifle
Energy disperses heavily in even slightly adverse conditions. Expelling an extremely high-energy blast underwater is not an intelligent idea, for example.
>Allows a space marine to fire hundreds of thousands of rounds before recharging
They can carry a lot of ammunition on their person thanks to being huge and having power-assist armour, and all of their transports are largely just ammo dumps since the marines themselves can travel at ridiculous speeds on foot.
>and maybe even file different types of charges based on need (explosive or penetrating plasma).
Or they could use the same rugged boltgun with some variant rounds. Space marines and their gear is built entirely with versatility and durability in mind.
Not only are energy weapons extremely fragile (and temperamental! reloading plasma flasks even slightly incorrectly is what causes meltdowns, not the gun randomly misfiring), but as high-tech gear they're not something you can just fix with a bit of spit and vinegar while on campaign.
There's a lot to poke holes in with 40k and space marines, but their equipment choices are fairly sound.
>>47383980
The problem with that is that hellguns aren't really awesome and they still require regular reloads. In fact I can't think of a single human weapon, even the energy ones, which don't require reloading.
>Yet artwork and backstories clearly _try_ to show them fighting against and actually winning huge waves of enemies.
Yeah that's artists, doesn't seem to be any way to stop them.
>>47383604
This is why it's feasible for the Tau to stand up to the Imperium and win.
>>47384127
>and in the case of plasma, they don't have the wherewithal to build a design that combines reliability and efficiency with power, so the variants they do have are only good in small bursts of fire and are very likely to overheat and spew plasma goop
Not so, imperial plasma guns are perfectly capable of firing on lower powered settings. It's just no longer represented in the base tabletop game.
Repeated firing at maximum power can cause overheats (imperial plasma used to have to recharge if fired at full power, while chaos plasma could fire at full power every turn but had the chance to explode), but the misfiring is largely caused by improper handling of the two plasma flasks required to reload the weapon.
>>47384307
Anon, read closer. It says it took those forces to reconquer the planet's in rebellion. Considering those worlds had no standing fleets OR military, that is a lot of bodies just to ensure compliance.
>>47384348
You're thinking hotshot lasguns, hellguns have massive backpack batteries that allow them to fire full auto for days without recharging, and that is for HUMAN sized packs.
>>47384393
No, he's right. GW pull this shit all the time.
Back during the worldwide campaign for Armageddon the listed all the Imperial Guard regiments sent to help Armageddon (in WD or the codex, can't remember) and even if you were generous and had every regiment at 20,000 I don't think it even came close to a million.
Even a cursory glance at any hard numbers GW or FW puts out breaks down the narrative. This isn't new nor will it ever be fixed.
>>47383604
You don't use the Super Weapon to fight every battle when theres a risk it might run out or get damaged.
Space Marines fight a lot, true, but they dont typically deploy for extremely extended periods unless absolutely necessary They're spec ops, they go in to do shit, do the shit, and get out. Based on this, their weapons performance is of greater importance to them than its logistical efficiency.
Its also worth noting that Space Marines usually deploy with some form of melee weapon in case they run out of ammo. Due to their immense physical capabilities, this is often sufficient for dealing with grunt-level enemies.
And as already noted, they have hundreds and thousands of lobotimised robot slaves to produce and transport their ammo. Combine this with resupply drops, either by transport or drop-pod, and they cover themselves pretty well with regards logistics. Its not efficient, sure, but thats not the aim of the Space Marines.
>>47384400
No, hellguns require backpacks because of the immense energy consumption required to burn through armor. They can use standard power packs but only get about 25% of the shots out of it before it's drained. The backpacks allow sustained fire but only supply between 60-200 shots at peak discharge.
>>47383897
Considering how small the amount of Marines is supposed to be (around one million), manufacturing difficulties should not be an issue, especially when Marines arr supposed to be the best of the best. If the Imperium can produce enough plasma and melta guns to hand a couple to every IG squad, they damn well should be able to equip every Marine with one.
>>47384441
This. Anytime you see a solid number in any 40k fluff, presume it's at least one or two orders of magnitude out (in either direction). The easiest thing is just to replace all numbers with "many", "lots", and "LOADS".
>>47383640
They were at a fortress there weren't they they did run out of ammo by the end
>>47384365
>Such a volatile weapon comes with a significant drawback however. The barely contained plasma makes the weapon prone to overheating in the most spectacular of ways. While emergency cooling ducts and exhaust vents periodically expel excess heat from the gun, continual firing almost inevitably overloads these functions. When the weapon reaches critical temperatures, it will release a cloud of super-heated vapour to prevent the gun from destroying itself. Unfortunately for the firer, this cloud is easily capable of burning away light armour and peeling flesh from bone.
>Space Marines are at least afforded a degree of protection against these catastrophic overheats because of their power armour, the ceramite plates and hard seals usually limiting the damage to their surroundings. Even so, an overheat can still kill or maim a battle-brother, especially if the exhaust vents clog or the coils crack from the intense heat. For lesser warriors, like Imperial Guardsmen, overheating plasma guns are almost always fatal, leaving frail bodies charred to blackened bone by great gouts of charged particles.
>In rare cases, plasma guns are even capable of detonating if they get too hot. This may occur as a result of excessive firing, but can also be the result of a flaw during manufacture. Should the casing crack or the magnetic containment fail, the firer will have only a fraction of a second before the gun turns into a ball of blazing energy in his hands, consuming itself with the heat of a star and vaporising everything with reach.
>>47384528
>In addition to the dangers of an overheat, plasma guns are difficult to reload. Only with the requisite prayers should the hydrogen flasks be screwed into place, their unstable ammunition all too prone to spilling or fouling the plasma intakes. An incorrectly attached flask can cause the weapon to explode the first time it is fired, as an empty or partially filled magnetic chamber creates inescapable pressure that will tear the gun apart, in addition to its user.
>Removing a flask is also dangerous, as even a small amount of plasma leaking out of a broken seal or an incorrectly closed value can burn away a hand or cost the shooter several of his fingers. For these reasons, plasma guns are slow and difficult to load or unload on the battlefield, a task often best left to the sacred ministrations of a Techmarine or Tech-Priest and long hours of repetitious binary prayer. In combat, a Space Marine can rely on a plasma gun for a dozen or so consecutive shots before the flask starts to run dry, and he runs the risk of triggering a catastrophic overheat.
>Despite its drawbacks the plasma gun has remained part of the Imperium’s arsenal for thousands of years. It is an honour to carry the gun into battle, and be trusted to make sure every searing shot counts. Based on the secrets of the sacred STC, it is a design that has never been developed or improved on. Indeed, the very thought of trying to mitigate the flaws of the plasma gun would be repellent to the followers of the Machine God. By the grace of the Omnissiah, the weapon fulfils a role within the God-Emperor’s armies, and to change this role in any way would be to invite mayhem and disorder. So the plasma gun is crafted just as it has been for untold centuries, each one finding its way into the hands of a resolute Space Marine or an ungrateful Guardsman.
-Munitorum : Plasma Guns
>>47383604
>weapon that fires explosive rounds from a 20-30 round magazines is stupid
>weapon that fires 10 shots from a plasma flask and needs a techpriest and hours of time to reload makes sense
Great plan, anon, you get a gold star. Wear it with pride, so everyone can know what you'd done.
Marines are not intended to fight years on end without support in the ass end of space. They're special forces that come in, fuck shit up, and leave. They take what they need for the task at hand. They CAN fight for long times without support, but it's usually when something goes wrong and it most certainly results in them running out of ammo and having to improvise. If troops on the ground run out of ammo, they can always get resupplied from orbit with drop pods. Just stuff them full of munitions and fire at your own troops. Rhinos also carry stuff for resupply.
You're also forgetting the versatility of the bolter, where it can be fitted with all manner of scopes and silencers, different sized magazines, fire modes, and most importantly, different types of ammo. Plasma guns fire plasma only. Bolter can fire bolts, it can fire long range armour piercing bolts, explosive shrapnel bolts, silenced sniper bolts, poison bolts, etc.
>>47384542
Shoddy design and manufacture, extremely difficult and hazardous to reload, ad can only be relied on for 12 shots before it needs to be reloaded and risks overheat.
Imperial plasma a shit. Also I cannot find anything about low setting in the muni book.
>>47384443
3e stormies didn't have backpacks, their guns used magazines. Hot-shot power packs are a thing that can be used in normal lasguns and for example longlas sniper rifles use hot-shot power packs.
>>47384560
It's older than that. In the old days plasma weapons could fire normally or make a more powerful shot, but had to forego one turn of shooting to recharge.
In the 3e rulebook it says that plasma weapons built up heat, but also mentions that a catastrophic failure can lead them to vent the hot gasses on the gunner.
Plasma guns killing every other operator is an ebbin may-may even GW's hacks have began to believe in.
>>47384575
FFG fluff (not canon) makes it so that huge backpacks have very little ammo capacity when used with hellguns and HS lasguns. That being said, I believe old canonical sources also said they were good for very few shots.
>>47384575
God fucking damn I forgot how much I love the old storm troopers, I need to pick up some of those models.
>>47383985
>Check out the side protrusions: they're bolter clips ready to be drawn and reloaded.
source me, cause that sounds like bs
>>47384650
2e stormies has regular lasguns with hot-shot power packs on their backs and the stress from the increased power output needed extra maintenance.
Necromunda had regular power cell sized hot-shot packs, which gave your lasguns more punch but reduce the ammo roll (so I assume they ran out faster or were unreliable).
3e stormies has just the power cells in their special built, sturdier lasguns.
Cadian and DKoK grenadiers had hot-shot power packs on their backs.
Munitorum Manual (at least) states that longlas snipers use hot-shot power cells. The IG sniper rifles and some of the Marine ones have magazines in them, but most of the Scout sniper rifles have backpack (or more accurately butt pack) power source for the gun).
Scions have backpacks. Though it's not hard to convert them to magazines, just cut the power cables off.
I'm sure the backpack offers more juice, but also you're tied to it. Would assume such troops carrying spare magazines on them just in case the backpack runs out.
>>47384127
Space Marines are supposed to be the equivalent of medieval knights. A kingdom like France in the 1100s might have 40,000 levy soldiers and 2,000 knights. Your standard levy soldier is going to be equipped with a spear or pike and little in the way of armour. These are your Imperial Guardsman, poorly trained and meant to overwhelm the enemy using sheer numbers. Knights will be equipped with platemail or partial plate armour, which is very good at stopping spear and pike thrusts, as well as sword attacks. Unless the opposing side has axes or maces, there's no way they're penetrating the knight's armour. They could wait until a knight gets tired and then gang him, but they're likely to lose some men doing so, because he's not going to go down without a fight. Knights would generally be equipped with swords, because they are expensive and have no trouble cutting down unarmoured levy soldiers. Knights would also carry axes and maces for killing other knights. These are your Space Marines, your heavily armoured elite soldiers who have been trained from a young age to kill everything.
>>47384715
I don't think IRL light machinguns (like MG42, M60, SAW) uses spare magazines. Feeding from a box is more reliable and if you run out what difference will another 30 rounds make?
Actually, isn't a LMG a good analogy for a hellgun?
>>47384307
There have been regiments with a large number of battalions before. Maybe not that much but definitely in the range of 6,000 and 10,000.
>>47384307
"Regiment" can go anywhere from a bunch of under strenght companies to chenkov's "let's outzerg nids" own so you can't get any definite number there.
>>47384307
>reconquered 70 sectors worth of worlds from them.
Somehow I doubt Angron was particularly interested in holding territory after they had killed everyone.
>>47385080
>I don't think IRL light machinguns (like MG42, M60, SAW) uses spare magazines.
SAW in particular has the ability to use standard M16 magazines.
But no, the hellgun is not an LMG, it's a sturdier lasgun. Whether it feeds from a backpack or magazines is entirely up to the doctrines of the regiment/the user. As I said, the 2e stormies, even in fluff, had regular lasguns with a souped up power source. All the hot-shot lasgun models have the wires hooked up to what looks very much like a typical magazine well, with a magazine release and all. And if you look at SM scouts, their sniper rifles have wires going into the well, but the kit also comes with one rifle that has a lasgun magazine in it instead of wires.
It'd make plenty of sense to have a couple of spare magazines on you for when the backpack runs out of juice, so that you're not stranded without ammo. Just unhook the backpack and load up a hot-shot power cell into the gun for a few extra rounds. Easier than carrying extra backpacks.
>>47383863
>>47383724
>>47383726
>>47383640
>>47383604
The problem is that you guys are too retarded to get that the space marines we see in-game have stats made for playability.
In the fiction they're far more powerful, but GW wouldn't sell half as many models if a normal game of 40k was an army of traitor guardsmen or aliens milling about when suddenly a marine drop assault or armored spearhead assault happens and kills their leader, or if 1 space marine could punch a whole squad of guardsmen to death without breaking a sweat.
>Normal dude with officer training, no enhancements, 10 years of experience in a human military force, S3, 3 attacks.
>7 Foot tall superhuman who's who's been surgically and genetically altered, wearing a powered exoskeleton enhancing his already above peak human strength, who's driven tanks, fought in assault squads, been a scout, until finally earning the honor of being a tactical marine, after which he has known a hundred years of nothing but combat, combat training and prayer. S4, 1 Attack.
And lets not even get started on the weapons. This is a game where getting hit by a burst from a machine gun that fires tiny rockets that explode in your body with enough power to blow an arm or leg off is translated into 1/3 chance for absolutely nothing to happen.
>>47383604
Guys, I don't know shit about 40k. I just started Only War and I made a Superstitious Stormtrooper. I've got a Hellgun. Am I well equipped, or am I holding onto volatile liability ready to explode in my hands?
>>47385889
Yes, the hellgun is a sturdier lasgun, kind of like how an LMG is a "sturdier" assault rifle.
I know LMGs can use magazines and if done you'd bring spares. Just saying it's not very useful to bring spare magazines when you already have a box. Not arguing that there wouldn't be fringe uses for either spare power packs or magazines, but it's more stuff to carry.
Same thing for hellguns. I still think LMG is a good analogy.
>>47386006
By the standards of the Imperial Guard, you are quite well equipped. A Hellgun can deal with most infantry targets, and doesn't do badly against tougher beasts (Eg, Tyranid Warriors). It's not so great against anything with decent armour or mass however. (eg Space Marines, tanks, carnefexes). For those, you're going to need high explosives and/or plasma weapons. Krak Grenades Covereth a Multitude Of Sins.
Just remember the motto of the guard: "When in doubt, call in an Artillery strike."
>>47386351
>LMG is a "sturdier" assault rifle
Please tell me you're British.
>when you already have a box
Here's the thing, anon. The box is on your back. And it contains more than just ammo for your gun. When it runs out, then what? A machine gun can swap out the belt/magazine, but the hot-shot lasgun can't drop the backpack and go get a new backpack. You're stuck with it and you can't reload the pack either in the middle of a fight.
You wanna die or you wanna have a power cell or two in your pocket to have at least something.
>>47386004
The fiction doesn't make sense, playability or not. Space marines are shown as fighting off enemy hordes for days and not running out of ammo in spite of using a weapon that fires a ludicrously large cartridge that would have them spend ammo even faster than they already would.
As already noted, energy weapons in 40k don't necessarily use less ammo.
>>47386455
>>LMG is a "sturdier" assault rifle
>Please tell me you're British.
Malaysian.
What does that have to do with anything?
>>47383985
>clips
>CLIPS
>CLIIIIIPS.
>>47386455
>Please tell me you're british
I'm british.
Or might as well be.
A LMG is built to sustain a high rate of fire with a more powerful cartridge. I think "sturdier" assault rifle is an apt comparison.
Maybe that's just me being naive / british.
>>47386597
>A LMG is built to sustain a high rate of fire with a more powerful cartridge. I think "sturdier" assault rifle is an apt comparison.
Actually most LMGs use the same cartridges as assault rifles. In fact, many of them are just assault rifles with added tripod, modified to use belt feed and/or a box magazine .
>>47383604
>Maybe the plasma rifle
Imperial plasma weapons are unreliable and dangerous. Bolters are much more robust and reliable.
>>47383863
>He thinks tabletop Space Marines in any way represent their capabilities in the fluff
Xenos filth actually believes this
>>47386645
Well, with a modified receiver and barrel assembly to account for the higher heat generated by full auto fire but yes, they are modified from the assault rifle that the nation uses as its standard arm.
Bipod is more common than tripod on LMGs though. Tripod is more for static defence and such, less for squad support.
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Default Weapon" bullshit that's going on in the 40k system right now. Bolters deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine bolter in Mars for 3 minutes of sex with the Fabricator-General (that's about $800,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even make slabs of solid plasteel disappear with my bolter.
Adeptus Mechanicus smiths spend years working on a single bolter and test it up to a million times to produce the finest guns known to the Imperium.
Bolters are thrice as shooty as laser weapons and thrice as accurate for that matter too. Anything a lascannon can shoot through, a bolter can shoot through better. I'm pretty sure a bolter could easily punch a hole through a Carnifex with an Extended Carapace with a simple trigger pull.
Ever wonder why the C'tan never bothered conquering the Imperium? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Space Marines and their bolters of destruction. Even in the War in Heaven, C'tan soldiers targeted the Marines with the bolters first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Bolters are simply the best weapon that the universe has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the 40k system. Here is the stat block I propose for Bolters:
(Boltgun) 72' Range S:9 AP:1 Assault 9, Armorbane, Large Blast, Sniper, Rending, Lance, Ignores Cover, Ignores Invulnerable saves
(Heavy Bolter) 96' Range S:D AP:1 Salvo 9/18, Massive Blast, Sniper, Rending, Lance, Ignores Cover, Ignores invulnerable saves, Armorbane
Now that seems a lot more representative of the dakka power of Bolters in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Bolters need to do more damage in 40k, see my new stat block.
>>47386645
>many
How many? Because vast majority of LMGs made from assault rifles have been experimental or very limited use items.
LMGs predate assault rifles, are used very differently from assault rifles and sometimes operate differently from assault rifles. I might as well claim that a pistol is just a small assault rifle, because it's an equally valid comparison in this logic.
Hot-shot las weapons are not LMGs in any shape or form. They're special issue rifles and pistols with a more powerful load, using either a regular power cell sized magazine or a backpack power source.
>>47386756
You forgot yfw.
>>47386756
Well meme'd, anon. I was waiting for this.
>>47386004
Problem is that the rules and fiction are almost talking about different things, as the differences are so huge.
It reduces immersion when there is severe conflicts within the material we are provided with.
Of course if we dismiss most of fluff as legend or Imperial propaganda it would almost make sense
>>47383604
There are more than one million planets in the imperium and space marines.
The setting doesn't really bother to make sense.
Git gud, stop being so dumb.
>>47388739
>more than one million
>>47386756
An oldie but a goodie.
>>47383604
>knows this little about the setting
>still complains
>>47388804
>implying stars aren't worlds too
there are more than million space marines
>>47388804
>forgetting the black templars and space wolves
>>47383604
They're actually very proper weapons
Most neckbeards don't realize that actual combat is not a matter of you shoot I shoot. A space marine is extremely tactically flexible and a squad of them can bring most xenos and humans to heel without even needing to fire their bolters.
Just as well the bolter in the hands of a space marine is a one shot, two kill weapon, that is designed to make most xenos and humans just fall apart after one squad coordinated fuselade, which in truth is a burst of two to three rounds from ten marines. This enough to tear apart literally anything short of a tank in that kill zone, and whatevers left is going to surrender
Space marines are also shock troops, not designed for useless prolonged firefights, hence the power armor and uber strength/speed. Other assets such as devastators and vehicles cover them on a rapid advance. The only time a prolonged firefight occurs with marines is if they're retreating, or if traitor marines are engaging.
>>47388884
>forgetting that BT are next to chapter numbers now
>forgetting that there's chapers like Crimson Fists that are way below the average chapter size
>>47383604
I don't think you comprehend Space Marine doctrine very well. This is how most of them operate:
1. find the enemy's C&C.
2. hit it as hard as they can, as fast as they can, and in as gruesome a way as possible.
3. withdraw before the enemy knows what to do about it
4. let the IG and/or PDF clean up the rest, occasionally hitting strong points as needed.
5. Move on to the next conflict.
>>47389342
In his defence, I feel like GW has forgotten about that as well in many scenarios.
>>47389356
I blame the Warhammer 30k stuff. Aside from the occasional mention of the Mechanicus and assassins no one else seems to even be mentioned.
>>47385072
You make knights sound really fucking badass.
>>47383604
you are ignoring melee. thats a mistake in warhammer 40k. spacemarines are REDICULOUSELY efficient in closecombat. also they have insane stamina and can literally stay in combat for days without breakes.
>>47389564
You like the letter "e", huh?
People compare them to special forces but even then it doesn't make sense. With 40k's scale is less special forces and more one really strong guy who has to move on foot vs the combined armies of the world
>>47389809
Also, special forces are considerably more subtle than giants who literally crash from space in enormous gawdy armor
>>47383604
>what are logistics
>what are ammo supply drops sent from drop pods
>>47389809
Not everyone of the million worlds of the Imperium is at a constant war and not every conflict needs the Space Marines. Guard and PDF holds the line, Marines are the force modifiers.
>>47389809
Except they almost never send just 1 dude. They send a Company, which is 100 dudes and assorted tanks and other support vehicles. These are inserted on the battlefield at, or as close as possible to, their target.
>>47389869
Modern spec ops is subtle, yes, in regards to the spec ops most people think of. Or they can be anyway.
Thing is, though, Space Marines are less like the SAS and more like Alpha Group of Spetnaz fame. You send in the Space Marines to do brutal, terrible damage to something you need taken down, for the most part. You send them to crush the leader of an enemy force, their most elite units or their best strongpoints and then you send the IF to mop up.
Think of them not as operating like a modern spec ops team and more like a massive, awe inspiring, bulldozer that can be inserted in the main command center of the enemy to crush them. You want them to be gaudy. You want the enemy to know who destroyed them. That way the enemy knows who to fear.
>>47389926
I was not talking about the whole of the imperium. Each chapter has a few thousand marines. Anywhere they go they'll be sorely, EXTREMELY outnumbered by several orders of magnitude, and it'd be very hard NOT to see them coming. With 40k's FTL travel there's no guarantee if they'll be able to go instantly or take several decades to reach their destination. And a lot of their most effective equipment are invaluable, decaying heirlooms that nobody has any idea of how to fix.
>>47389544
Tis the point knave
>>47385072
>1100's
>levies poorly armored
>Knights wearing platemail or "partial plate"
>no way of penetrating 12th century maille
>unarmored levy soldiers
Holy shit you are legitimately retarded and know fucking nothing about 12th century warfare.
>>47390008
You're still not getting the point though. They are not an army, they are shock troops. Brutal, powerful shock troops whom are individually basically a tank. They haven't been deployed in armies since the Horus Heresy. They deploy as 1 of 2 things usually, those being a fast response force in support of the pdf or an elite strike force. In both cases, they do the same thing. They take out the hard points, the strongest shit the enemy has to offer, and leave most of the grunts to be cleared up by others.
You dont send a unit of spec ops to fight a war, you send them to achieve specific goals in a theatre while others fight the war.
>>47389971
That kind of psychological warfare is mostly rendered obsolete past the first engagement against proffesional soldiers with any semblance of discipline. There's a real-world precedent for this, the Romans didn't piss their pants and flee in fear whenever they saw a war elephant for instance
>>47383604
obviously it depends on enemies but in most situations spess do not fight like anything else. they have every advantage except numbers so what happens is they show up and start advancing while most everything else just fucking routs. not only do they not want to fight, they can't. spess do not get tired. spess do not know fear. spess do not get hungry. no attrition based defense is going to do anything because causing lasting damage to spess takes work.
you get a guardsman fighting a thing, what he does is blast it a hundred times until it isn't shooting back, then shoot it some more to be sure, then advance cautiously. it's a very different ammo consumption.
>>47390008
>EXTREMELY outnumbered
>mfw
Marines aren't sneaky-sneak-sneak special forces (though they can and they got scouts and shit). They got abilities, armour, etc. They're independent from the traditional Imperial command structure and got freedom to do things. They can come in, nuke the site from orbit and drop troops and vehicles in no time.
Yeah, there's no guarantees how fast you can arrive but Guard can't get there any faster either, and at least Marines have their ships with compliments of Marines patrolling space, where as Guard first needs the administratum to ascertain the situation, figure out what regiments are available, what Navy ships can pick them up and move them, whether they need special issue gear or supply, etc. And this assuming the regiments are at the strength reported or even alive anymore. IG regiments also aren't often universally equipped with everything. Armoured, infantry, artillery, etc. have their specialties and you might need several to even get a competent fighting force together.
All the while this is going on, the Marines are already on their way, maybe even kicking ass.
>a lot of their most effective equipment are invaluable, decaying heirlooms
So's everything else in the Imperium. Your point? You think titans, baneblades, various Russ variants, etc. are common place items that can be made just like that?
>that nobody has any idea of how to fix.
What can't they fix?
>>47386597
LMG's are not supposed to sustain fire you ignorant Britbong. LMG's have a fucking absurd rate of fire typically, and sustained fire can lead to the barrel of your gun melting from the heat. LMG's are squad support weapons used to suppress the enemy. You don't fire full auto, you fire light bursts to make the enemy panic and keep their head down. You keep firing those bursts so they stay there while your rifle armed pals flank around the enemy, either lobbing grenades or picking the suppressed forces off with rifle fire. LMG's have an entirely different purpose from "assault rifles" (which aren't a thing, there are just rifles).
There's also the use of LMG's to provide indirect fire support. Arc a shot over several kilometers so the bullets drop down on the enemy while you hide behind cover far, far away.
>>47390102
Thats not really the point though. The reason the Romans werent too afraid of the Elephants was because the elephants were easy to spot and easy to turn against the enemy.
Space Marines are more than that. They're elephants that crash out of the sky in a fucking comet, cannot be stopped, will not be reasoned with and will murder your leader before his bodyguards have a chance to stop them. And these fuckers deploy in squads of 10 typically.
Thats 10 motherfuckers that you can't kill, that can kill you in 100 different ways with a fucking spoon, crashing out of the sky in front of you and all they feel is hatred for you and disgust that you even exist.
They arent just scary for their power, anon. They're scary for what they do and how they go about it.
Quick dumb question. Are space marines biologically immortal? Do they die of old age? I know primarchs don't obviously but can salamander marine #229 live be a 1000? If so, why? Aren't they just genetically enhanced humans? (Obviously to an insane degrees but still)
>>47389342
That's pretty much it. The IG does most of the work. Space marines are like a slower, clumsier, more armor-laden version of the Eldar/DEldar. They basically try to surprise attack and then gtfo before any serious retaliation comes their way.
Humans overall are a zerg-type army. They swarm like bugs all over the fucking place, that's how they win. Even worse than Tyranids.
>>47390182
Psychological warfare won't work against necrons or 'nids though
>>47383705
The bolter thing dates back to before the UK went full NRA's Worst Nightmare and took everyone's guns away, though.
>>47390195
I seem to recall that Marines do age and ones who are no longer fit to serve in the field take duties as trainers and tacticians.
Oldest non-Dread Marine we know of Dante. Oldest non-Dread marine we don't know is one DA from the novel Eye of Terror, who got wounded during the Heresy, got ejected into space and drifted in a coma until M41. Though it's possible Chaos had a hand in it, so it might have not been 10,000 years for him.
Oldest Dread marines is Bjorn.
>>47383604
I've always thought that Space Marines had their ammo teleported straight onto them.
Like, servitors are cranking away in the manufactorums aboard nearby ships producing bolter rounds, and each Space Marine's power armor has a beacon that allows them to have more ammo teleported directly onto their utility belt.
It's a small enough thing that it can be teleported across short distances without much interference from the warp, and on the off chance that the Space Marines lose their supply lines every single one of them is capable of going full on Rambo to carry on the fight with improvised weapons.or maybe killing an enemy with a chainsword causes hundreds of rounds of ammo to explode out of them
>>47390050
>>47385072
To expand on this, this is your average mid 12th century knight. He doesn't have any fucking plate armor to speak of. Plate armor will only become a partial thing by the mid 1250's with the rise of the Coat of Plate, which will explode in popularity in the eve of the 13th century and become the main piece of knightly armor by the 14th. The closest thing you could argue to being "plate armor" is lamellar, and that's by and large an eastern thing used by the Romans, Balts, etc. But the highest quality gear in West Europe (which is almost more or less superior to lamellar) is maille, woven links of steel or iron. Maille comes in an inconceivable amount of forms, far more than plate armor, with quality ranging from cheap garbage that will fall apart to a single sword strike or thick, potentially double-weave maille able to stand up to lances reliably.
Maille is not flawless however, and unlike plate is FAR more easily penetrated and circumvented. Knights are not immune to swords. Swords hurt like fuck in maille, because even if they need a couple successive strikes to rip apart the links, the kinetic energy is still being delivered by a several pound object because maille is not a rigid substance. You can break the bones of somebody in maille by striking them with a sword hard enough, especially over bone-y parts of the body like the shoulders. This can be fought with the use of an underlying gambeson, but you do not want to get hit still.
Levy troops did not have any trouble penetrating maille. Spears can do significant damage with repeated thrusts, and polearms such as guisarmes are capable of ripping straight through a hauberk as demonstrated by William Marshal's first battle. While an early knight is certainly better armed and armored than levy troops, he is NOT invincible and getting surrounded means death. The lopsided kills you'll find in the middle ages primarily result from poor morale of levies and poor tactics of the enemy.
GW cannot into the size of how big modern warfare would be in order to reclaim a single planet much less conquer a sector.
Space Marine chapters are probably larger by a factor of 10 if not 100. But a fully committed force of 100,000 marines doesn't sound as good as 1000.
I'm okay with imp guard having something like divisions of 20,000 men with the understanding a army might have 5-10 divisions and that a conquest force will have potentially 10 or more armies in an army group. For a major front a single army group might be used but in some cases like conquest of a hive you might have several army groups working together.
Of course this would require massively upscaling the naval assets required but that's what you get when you do stuff at galactic scale.
>>47390195
Thats one of those things that are all over the place. The majority of marines die in battle within a couple of centuries but there are outliers. The Chapter Master of the Blood Angels, Dante, is 1100 years old and is an expert fighter and tactician, shows no signs of aging and has visions of defending the Emperor himself sometimes in the future. The Emperor was biologically immortal, the Primarchs were biologically immortal, but the Space Marines die so relatively quickly its sort of in the air.
Of course there are all those Long War veterans in and around the Eye of Terror who have lived for millenia but that may be chaos shenanigans.
>>47383863
all that spacemarine lorewank is just imperial propaganda
actual average space marines are as they are on the tabletop, marginally stronger and tougher than a trained human, with much better equipment
the 1000 per chapter stuff is also nonsense, propagated to make their exploits and victories more awe inspiring
>>47390618
No it isn't. Fluff is canon and anybody who says otherwise is just an assmad guard player.
>>47390284
And the Space Marines werent made specifically to fight the Necrons or Nids, they were just made to be the best soldiers Humanity had.
In this, they largely succeed. Man to man, few if any humans could best a Space Marine unless they were themselves a Space Marine or better. Besides, the Necrons and the Tyranids still have ''leaders'' so the Space Marines can still do most of their stuff. And even ignoring that, theres a fuckload more xenos out there that it will work on.
>>47390550
>modern warfare would be in order to reclaim a single planet
Well, first up it's not "modern". Second, even Guard has the ability to be flown anywhere on a planet, so they don't have to fight for every inch of the land. Thirdly, it's not like they have to fight every person that comes their way. A lot of worlds are feudal with centralized governments. Isolates pockets of resistance here and there can be dealt with after the head of the serpent has been cut. Stragglers can be handled by occupying Guard forces and newly raised PDF. If the planets rebel, then it's time for another orbital whoopin'.
In the wake of the Macharian crusade it took 70 years of campaigning to bring the worlds into compliance. The initial battle for a planet is swift and brutal, the rest is just crushing any remaining resistance in the area and beginning to milk the planet for its resources.
>>47390757
>daily reminder that Tau pilots are better and more skilled than even Eldar ones
>>47390866
It may be canon but It doesn't mean I have to like it.
>>47384472
Plasma guns aren't very good though.
The most battles marines have been in were against orks, and baseline people. A .75 automatic rocket launcher that tears through flesh is about the best weapon you can have in those scenarios.
>>47390842
Keep in mind some planets have 10s of billions in terms of population. Even if the size of the planetary PDF is pitifully small from a percentage of the overall population we are still probably talking tens of millions worth of defenders.
Having pitifully small invasion forces just don't make sense.
>>47391694
It does when you blow up half the opposing force from orbit then use the SMs to ruin the enemies fighting ability, by wiping out strong points, command sections and motor pools and then follow up with a bigass army of IF to fight the largest sections of the enemies largest remaining forces in the field and deal with the remainders over the next several years.
>>47391694
You don't send a small Marine detachment to deal with a planet of billions of people who rebel against the Imperium. They can form the vanguard, deploying scouts and blockading the planet, maybe doing raids and bombardments on key installations like defence batteries and space ports. Once the rest of the Imperial forces arrive, that's when the full war starts.
If they do have to do it by themselves, they most surely use the assistance of local forces still loyal to the Emperor. Maybe even the population. Billions upon billions of people also means they're hard to control by the government. Marines can use their status as the Emperor's angels of death and local ecclesiarchs to rally the people to overthrow the tyrant in charge. They can get loyalist military forces to aid them. Mechanicus priests, Astra Telepathica personnel, Fleet personnel, etc. who are not under the governor's direct control are sure to side with the loyalist forces.
In the daemon codex there's a tale of a lone Marine who rallied the population of a planet against a daemonic incursion.
