Could a fighter jet take out a dragon?
>>47363462
Yes.
>>47363462
No.
>>47363462
Depends on the jet. Depends on the dragon.Depends on the setting.I'm serious though, because if we're talking about, say, D&D, then yeah probably. But in Shadowrun it's evidently not the case.
>>47363527
I thought you could kill a dragon with a car bomb in Shadowrun. Isn't that how they offed President Mt. Shasta?
>>47363527
jet has bullets, dragon has heart, shoot dragon in heart, dragon is kil evry tiem.
>>47363462
What, you didn't play Drakengard?
>>47363527
F-15C, mature red dragon, D&D.
>>47363462
How big a dragon are we talking?
>>47363561
Fighter Jet, easily.
>>47363539
Yes, but at the same time the Feuerschwinge and other dragons took literally months to kill with conventional arms.
>>47363462
>LN
>Lakenheath.
Dear GIs, this kinda shit is why Europe still hates you.
>>47363561
Dragons dead. Before it even knows it's under attack. Unless it happens to have castes divination, then it might have a chance to hide, or possibly cast a save or else spell
>>47363462
Yeah.
>>47363592
I'd like to think that that dragon is just being escorted by the two fighters, all three on their way to battle.
>>47363462
A MiG-29 Fulcrum? Would annihilate dragon.
An F-15? Would slash the dragon with Stingers.
Dragons can stop and turn on a dive, but are not known to break the sound barrier on a frequent basis, or have thermal-sensing missiles.
>>47363676
are dragons warm-blooded though?
>>47363676
>>47363710
>the dragon uses spurts of flame breath as flares to dodge missiles
>>47363462
Yes, but the world's already been infected with magic so it might be a bad idea in the long run.
>>47363539
Big D had his own machinations there. Some dragons like >>47363597 said have survived huge bombardments. Dunkie allowed himself to die, as a plot point.
>>47363728
That's actually interesting
>>47363750
>Not wanting a +5 Holy SU27 of Chaotic kebab removal
Fucks sake man!
>>47363728
>this fails because modern missiles do not fall for flares, the dragon is mortally wounded and evacuates its bowels in pain and terror seconds before being smashed to a bloodsmear on the rocks below.
Assuming this is a mature dragon from D&D, would it be able to cast Magic Missile fast enough that it could hit the jet?
The range would be so ridiculously short in comparison to how fast a jet moves, so let's assume that the dragon does have the time to get some buffs up.
Things like Haste, Clairvoyance (to actually see the jet coming), Major Image (to create a radar and thermal return that's exactly the same as the dragon itself).
>>47363487
>>47363525
Fuck both of you in particular.
>>47363795
>remove evil.jpgI see what you did there.
>>47363865
There's usually very little hint that it is coming.
The best way to discuss this is, could all your doodads and gobbly speak stop the 'Locate City Nuke's spell?
>>47363592
>>47363598
>implying Britbongs don't joyride through the Mach Loop themselves.
>>47363462
How much hurt can be put on depends on the plane and the dragon, but generally no dragon can compete with a fighter jets range and speed. Unless the dragon can literally tank the planes entire arsenal it's pretty much screwed.
>>47363795
I'm sure that will help with everybody starts turning into salt.
Not sarcasm, that's the sort of thing you'd want to use against salt zombie abominations.
Ok so your average dragon jobs to fighter jets, what kind of dragon would it take to come out victorious?
>>47364053
I'm going to go with caster dragons - unless the fighers are magic too.
>>47363462
A fighter jet? Hell no. Fighter jets are horribly underpowered and ill-equipped for the job of facing dragons.
You want a wizard jet for that.
>>47364053
The retardedly magic ones or the retardedly huge ones.
>>47363462
I'd say OP has his answer by now, but I wonder how well missiles would track a dragon. I assume a heat seeker would have trouble locking onto a dragon that wasn't breathing fire constantly, but would radar tracking based missiles find one easily enough?
>>47363592
>>47363954
America had a 250kt A2A missile back in the day
they even designed a 0.25kt missile for the YF-12 which was the interceptor version of the A-12 which was the predecessor of the SR-71
>>47363728
control theory bro.
missiles do not follow the flares because they have a notch filter in the spectral lines of the flare's radiation. same thing can happen for dragon fire. notch filter whatever is burning, and continue on searching for the dragon.
dead dragon.
and if its a radar guided missile, the flare just fucking fails.
>>47363462
anyway, the dragon is butt fucked. dragons cannot do anything in BVR fighting. fighter detects dragon on radar god knows how far away, and launchs a missile from 30 miles away. missile travels at mach 4, 4504 fps.how fast do dragons fly? 250 feet every 6 seconds? 41 fps.
dragon would be dead before it even knew it was under attack
>>47364085
>but would radar tracking based missiles find one easily enough
I guess that would depend on the radar absorption of the scales, but generally I think the radar tracking would work.
>>47364080
medium jej
>modern jet wan
How late a jet would a dragon stand a fair change against?
>>47363637
>>47364148
>dragons cannot do anything in BVR fighting
Dragons don't know divination spells?
>>47364154
RAM Dragon
>>47364181
The odds would be against it using WWII tech, and it'd get dunked on by a Messershit.
>>47363527
>Shadowrun dragons
>Stronger than DnD dragons
All of my what anon?
>>47363597
>Yes, but at the same time the Feuerschwinge and other dragons took literally months to kill with conventional arms.
Gets shit blown out of it pretty much instantly as soon as the conventional military brings its might to bear.
Took literally months to kill with conventional arms.
That didnt happen, firewing was a bitch to track down but as soon as she was she got melted easily.
>>47364838
>Feuerschwinge
Even in the dragon fall ending where she resurrects and goes ape shit shes shot down rampaging over Berlin.
It does not and did not take months of conventional arms to take her down, quite the opposite.
>>47363462
Just going to leave this here
https://youtu.be/67RpQFOjchw
>>47363462
>Could a fighter jet take out a dragon?
Even your average guy with a sword can take out a dragon what's the point of using modern technology?
>>47364947
amazing. the Japanese managed to make a fight between jets and a dragon boring
>>47364978
Fuck that, even women in skimpy armored bikinis can take out a dragon with a sword.
>>47365029
You know what, FUCK EVEN THAT, even little girls expensive in gothic clothes can take out a dragon with just a sword without even ruining their expensive dresses.
>>47364978
>>47365029
>>47365041
Half a dozen 'normal humans' can take down a 100ft daemon king who can destroy entire cities plus their armies.
Then you have Reign of Fire where Drgons brought about the end of all civilisation yet can be taken down by infantry.
They're as strong as they need to be. That includes being so weak they can get taken down by a salvo of automatic fire if that's what the author's going for.
>>47363462
Antitank Rockets can penetrate around 10 inches of steel.
Unless dragons have some kind of plot armor, they're dead meat.
Use pic related for extra irony.
So if a Fighter Jet carries Anti Tank missiles and manages to hit the dragon, it's dead meat.
>>47363462
Of course, a goddamn Zero can.
>>47363560
It sort of went wrong there. Turns out they were kind of better off not shooting the dragon.
>>47365151
The world wouldn't have been messed up by the presence of that giant thing the Dragon was fighting anyway?
>>47364996
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDZaKkl5TwQ
>>47364947
>all that cheap CG
People actually watched this?
>>47365498
I mainly watched it because I needed something to watch, and I have already read the manga for the show
>>47364821
Dnd dragons can be killed with men, with swords and fire and lightning.
There have been zero confirmed dragon kills in Shadowrun; The only one that might count was quite possibly suicide, and there's still no proof it actually managed, since there was a dragon before and after the attack; jury still out if it was the same one, a successor or a convenient faker.
Also, it required a cruise missile, which may have been magically augmented.
Shadowrun Dragons are only weaker than BS planar dragons, which isn't a fair comparison.
>>47363462
It seems op has his answer now
On a related note, could an army with WW1/WW2 tech kill a dragon?
>>47364080
>wizard squadron reporting in
>>47365746
WW1 tech, debatable to doubtful. AA guns just weren't that powerful and mobile artillery wasn't very prevalent. They might have had luck if they could get in artillery range of its lair and gas it though? Zepps would have been toast though.
WW2 tech, possible to likely. They were mounting anti-tank rockets and cannons on heavy fighters, tanks were more reliable and prevalent. Not to mention the AA batteries on late-war battleships and cruisers were very heavy and reasonably accurate with pretty high ceilings.
And don't forget, nukes are technically WW2 technology if all else fails.
>>47365498
It's from a 2003 game from a no-name studio (at the time), what did you expect?
>>47365393
>not posting the ending
https://youtu.be/6OPW-RdzStA?t=292
>>47365746
A couple of rednecks with a pickup truck and some rifles could probably slay a dragon with minimal risk to themselves given that in a lot of fiction a single guy with a sword and a suit of armor can kill one.
>>47365555
Well, no GREATER dragons have been killed. Lesser dragons have been killed, and they are nothing to sneeze at.
>>47364978
>>47365836
Average guys with swords can't kill dragons. That's why dragon slayers are heroes and saints held in high regard by all. Even Beowulf couldn't slay the dragon on his own.
>>47365895
>tfw toyota war fighters could take down a dragon
>tfw what a setting
>>47365979
that's an entire heap of dead dragons right there.
But what if the fighter jet IS the dragon?
>>47366162
Then you make fun of its intakes.
>>47363551
You go in the jet, jet goes in the sky, you go in the sky. Dragon's in the sky, our dragon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVmeeYwEiQw
>>47365898
Because they are used as vital plot points by the developers of the game and made unkillable on purpose. In reality every reputable government would have developed a gun capable of tracking down a dragon and killing him because humans do anything to stay on top. The space laser didn't properly work so there sure has to be one up there with at least 10 times the power that can't be fired remotely.
>>47363462
I would think so. The fighter jet has longer-ranged weapons than the dragon.
Now I want to play a game with early-20th-century aircraft fighting dragons in the air.
>>47365900
In Beowulf's defense he was aged as all fuck and tired. If he was younger he probably could take the dragon.
>>47366381
He wasn't just an average guy, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZovVnSGzXo
>>47366232
dont make fun of her beautiful intakes you fuck
>>47366404
I'm bullying ur waifu and u can't stop me
>>47363637
I could see it happening in a setting like Temeraire. Jets would be needed for air superiority, but for low end roles like observation and CAS the dragons would be more cost effective once they have fighter cover.
>>47366512
Less expensive than a warthog, surely, but with the focus shifting to more affordable airframes..
>>47363462
You can take them out with a Mitsubishi Zero.
>>47363551
>dragon has heart
Not in my setting.
Checkmate, atheist.
>>47363527
>Depends on the setting.
God forbid we talk about Rifts dragons.
>>47364080
>Plot twist, it's an anima fighter jet
>>47363462
The dragons in my setting are small enough to pilot jet fighters.
So, yes.
>>47365835
Green leader of lightning mages reporting. Over.
>>47366565
With dragons, they could afford to run an air force on an 18th century logistical chain. You couldn't do that with planes.
>>47366951
That really depends on how much the dragon needs to intake and how often it needs to rest. The main advantage I see is that it doesn't need an airstrip.
>>47366978
>The main advantage I see is that it doesn't need an airstrip
It kinda still does depending on the side.
>>47366978
The key point is that the agricultural revolution was still going on and canned food hadn't been invented yet. Relatively speaking, they can't have been that expensive to feed.
How would Radar and Invisibility spells interact anyway?
Would the Invisibility spell render the Radar unable to detect the Dragon?
>>47363462
Dragons are Magic. Only Magic can defeat Magic.
Dragon will win because missile comes in and Dragon says No and missile magically fails because Magic
>>47367287
It depends on how the invisibility spell works in regards to whether it affects all electromagnetic radiation or just the visible spectrum.
>>47367353
Can see something using the invisible spell with infravision? That'd be how you'd work that out.
If not then presumably heatseekers would have problems as well?
>>47367346
What now?
>>47367391
That depends on how your infravision works, senpai. Newer versions just call it darkvision so the whole infrared confusion is gone completely.
>>47367428
>>47367346
Doesn't France straight up make Magic Missiles? R5-50's?
>>47364053
Dragons capable of flying at supersonic speeds which are also tough enough to literally body the jet out of the air and not die in the process
>>47367436
Ultimately the best thing a Dragon could do I guess is to have some form of Danger Sense to warn it of incoming missiles and just hit the deck, literally. Just dive into the treeline.
I mean, if invisibility works on Radar then theoretically it COULD just go invisibile, and maybe if it was feeling punchy go for an intercept and hit the plane with Lightning Breath (I can't see fire, acid or chlorine being able to hit it. A cold cloud could be interesting though. As could sonic breath attacks) but he'd be gambling on a one-shot kill.
>>47363539
There was some kind of dimensional rip, it was no ordinary bomb that killed President Dunkelzhan.
Spoiler below.
He destroyed himself to reduce the overall mana intake of the world, so that the Horrors wouldn't cross the bridge into our world, which needs to be fueled up by a shitton of mana.
>>47364053
Caster dragons (Shadowrun, high level DnD, etc...)
Buttlargehueg dragons (on basis that they don't give a shit about the damage of a single jet)
Nearly immune dragons
>>47367488
Or just fucking rip the jet apart with fuckheug claws Michael bay starscream style
>>47367488
A Mercury dragon would be particularly problematic, I imagine.
>>47365555
Greater Dragons are something different. They're the fucking pillars of the world, killing one of them is like killing a D&D Major God.
Lesser Dragons should be used for comparison with adult D&D Dragons.
>>47363561
Well, the dragons have excellent senses and are also potent spellcasters. If the dragon knows that fighters and such exist in the world, they'll probably have some failsafes running. Unless they're dumbfuck whites of course. Missiles can likely be corroded/frozen/exploded away by breath weapon before they make contact, so the fighter would have to close in for a gun kill. I don't know anon, might go either way.
>>47367554
How? The Dragon isn't even close to a modern jet's combat airspeed, at least Lightning can't be outran by the Jet if it goes super sonic.
A jousting attack might work, but that's if a Dragon can survive a Titanium* spike ramming through it's sternum at Mach 2.
Although I do wonder what happens if a supersonic craft runs into a sonic breath attack coming from in front of it.
Does it do more damage because it's hit the sound attack at a higher speed? Hell, just shattering the cockpit and instruments on the plane could be lethal.
*Or whatever, it depends on the plane
I think that if you wanted a real world equivalent, the Dragon would occupy the same sort of niche that a Helicopter Gunship would. Vulnerable to AA and Fighters, a nightmare to ground units and armoured vehicles.
>>47367656
>obligatory J-CATCH post
>>47367612
I was assuming that the dragon was able to achieve the speeds of a fighter jet, no other way that would be a viable strategy
>>47363462
Better question:
Could a fighter jet seduce a dragon?
>>47367612
A dragon could twisr its body to get out of the spike's way.
>>47363561
Immunity to Non-magical weapons, Dragon takes it easy. DnD magic is fucking broken as shit.
>>47367684
I have no idea what that is.
But expounding on that, if you have an intelligent dragon who knows a bit of magic (shape-change and invisibility say) and has a decent sized hoard and isn't unafraid to spend a little of it to get what he wants, then he'd probably be a complete nightmare to deal with militarily.
>Those refugees escaping the combat zone you were ignoring? The last one is dragon, and he's eating your HMMV.
>This is not a dog. This is not a dog at all.
>Invisble night raids on your forward base.
>Why is our food on fire?
>Dragon has started a propaganda campaign against you using his war funds.
As long as the Dragon is able to grasp his vulnerabilities as well as his strengths, a relatively adult dragon could be a real problem.
oomma
Can you make a dragon more like a fighter jet. Give it some sort of backpack with jet engines and missile racks, Some sort of exoskeleton to allow its wings to take higher strains. Give it a BRRRT cannon to hold like a rifle. Armor? A HUD and radar equipment.
Assuming Dragons are intelligent enough to make technology, join armed forces, what would a dragon look like in its equivalent of operator gear?
>>47367580
>Missiles can likely be corroded/frozen/exploded away by breath weapon before they make contact
You do know that a typical air-borne missile these days is faster than a virtually any bullet, right?
>>47363462
Assuming it's a high level dragon, D&D 3.5 rules:
>Dragon casts foresight
>Dragon finds out there's a fighter jet out there that wants to kill it
>Dragon casts wish
>Fighter jet is dead
Who needs fire breath when you're a level 19 sorcerer?
>>47367743
>I have no idea what that is.
You have the whole of the internet at your fingertips, anon. What are you waiting for?
>>47367560
Dragons in Shadowrun are different anyways. They are totally overpowered but still follow the rules of society as far as they have to, but obviously stretch them as far as they can.
Think about it, they would have long since officially taken over the planet if they did not had to fear a bad outcome. Instead they hide behind corporations and politics to gain influence. In the last awakening they could have slaves and were almost invincible, now you have to pay your servants if you want to stay part of our society and you have to trade in your valuables for actual currency.
Seriously, I don't think Lofy knows true happiness, he only tries to gain as much money and power as possible, but in today's world it has become increasingly tedious to do so and that's why he has sort of stopped expanding his influence as fast as he used to. He wants to become rich and powerful but now this is tied to work and since it is told he is a micromanaging nightmare he probably is at the point where he needs others to help him expand further burt this implies giving away some authority to those and this is a conflict situation for him as giving up power to gain more power is sort of a paradox. You actually have to play by the rules (at least officially) if you want to keep your influence and trade agreements, so I am pretty sure he still pays his taxes to germany.
Dragons see others as lesser beings, but Dunkelzahn had realized, that it does not matters and I think rather than thinking of others as puny beings, he admired what they can accomplish without superior power and was actually happy. He would never have sacrificed himself if others didn't matter to him. His will shows in particular how important it was to him that everything was in order and everyone got what they deserved. (1/2) The fact that he told his realization of life to Lofy upon giving him the artifact shows that he still believes that he can change.
>>47364181
you probably passed the point of a fair fight with early WW2 propeller driven fighters. a DnD dragon is slower and less manouverable than a WW1 biplane. once you start involving cannons and rockets/missiles the dragon has very little chance.
>>47366162
DRAKEN STRONK
SPESS DRAKEN STRONKERHEIL WINDERMERE, FILTHY EARTHLINGS GET OUR REEEEE
>>47367731
>Immunity to Non-magical weapons
Isn't it just Damage Reduction?
Damage Reduction 5/Magic, to be precise.
>>47367945
A D&D dragon is a high level sorcerer with hundreds of HP, lots of DR, and an AC that reaches into the low 40's
Even a human sorcerer could easily handle a fighter jet.
>>47365835
>That's the Galm Team. Watch and Learn.
>>47364229
Dialga is only 10' tall.
>>47367942
[cont]
Dragons aren't greedy little fuckers because they are born this way, but because they are raised this way. You can be beloved and powerful.
Apart from that, don't kill Lofy, kill his employees and their families. Not the important people, just randomly chosen targets. Ideally those who still have a german passport so germany gets involved in it. Also don't do it yourself if you can afford it, but killing a totally unimportant person should not be difficult. After a while people will realize that SK employees are targeted, so they hesitate to work there and try to find other companies. To counter this Lofy has to raise salaries so people consider the risk again which means less gain for him. He also has problems with many other dragons because they are territorial and won't allow him to expand his universe where ever he wants. Be sure to have the murders look like they are done because of his corporations actions and he will search for reasons why someone would do this.
Don't kill him directly but let other dragons do it.
>>47366316
>Because they are used as vital plot points by the developers of the game and made unkillable on purpose. In reality every reputable government would have developed a gun capable of tracking down a dragon and killing him because humans do anything to stay on top.
I am of the opinion, 100%, that said guns do exist in the setting and every government with the money for one, has one. They are vital in the sense that nuclear missile deterrents are; their very existence means that dragons can't just go on murderous rampages like gigantic raving cunts whenever they feel like it. They're mighty and incredibly powerful, but they're not the only player on the board. They're like mega-corps: very powerful but not invincible. The best example being the dragon who literally RUNS a megacorp.
>>47367945
A dragon isn't just a flying lizard with a breath weapon, anon, they're highly intelligent magic-capable beings. You don't need to go as far as >>47367818 to level the playing field against an average WVR fighter.
>>47364233
Dragons might know divination, but they aren't casting it every single day and asking "Is something going to kill me today?" Because they're giant fucking lizards with an ego to match. They literally think their invincible and top of the food chain (and in many settings, literally are to any weapon in that setting) so they would have no reason to spam divination spells every day. Also, dragons are lazy bastards.
>>47363551
Bullets can't pierce dragon scale.
>>47368022
>I've never actually read any lore on dragons
Also, even if the jet has the unfair advantage of catching the dragon by surprise, even if it hits it, there's no way it's going to do the hundreds of damage required to kill it before the dragon can react.
>>47368022
>I play my hyper-intelligent beings as idiots
It's no wonder you can't even string together "they" and "are" properly.
>>47363527
Could a F-CK-1 Ching Huo defeat an adult red dragon from 2e?
>>47363561
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon
A mature adult red dragon is CR 18 and casts as a 9th-level sorcerer (11th-level sorcerer as a loredrake).
You have no idea what you are dealing with here. 5th-level spells (as a loredrake) are no small deal.
>>47368006
Also to kill one, use a weapon that does not needs to get close. We have them in reality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba (1961)
So if you plan on killing a dragon, pay for a space flight and fire that laser. Obviously you cause rather large casualties and if you kill Lofy and his corporation you might throw society into an apocalypse if you shut down such a large corp.
Here is how it goes
> burning SK
> everyone is suddenly workless
> guns and industrial goods get rare
> giant dragon on rampage if still left alive
> Also sudden decrease in power consumption the second you incinerate the corp
> Power grid disruption
> emergency power shutdown in the joined European network
> global network dead due to overloading
> all trade and transactions stops
> no more food and drink
> welcome to temporary stone age as everyone rampages and plunders and murders
> you watched everything from space and are laughing your ass off
> you realize you can't land your spaceship in a powerless planet without the guidance beams active
> Governments and corps seize assets of others
> Your laser is ready again to fire at the next corp/dragon
> Congratulations you caused a global apocalypse with everyone at war and most living beings dying (see fallout universe) but hey, you murdered your dragon.
> You realise that you can't get paid anymore due to system shutdown.
I have a story about something similar if anyone is interested.
>>47366378
There was a book i think. Something from the german guy who wrote "the dwarves" series. Descentants of dragon killing saints fighting dragons with ww1 tech
>>47368064
>age rank 6 of 12 against a modern shitbox
C'mon, m8, at least make an effort to set up a fair fight.
>>47368184
>tfw you will never beat back wyrm-riding huns in your SPAD-12
>>47368117
If you nuke one city to take him out, the infrastructure everywhere else will still exist and there are plenty of people ready to take it over if the opportunity arises. It'll be chaotic for a while but the world doesn't have a single point of failure.
>>47368225
It's not ONE city. You think a Great doesn't have FUCK YOU contingencies in place against that sort of thing?
>>47368225
>It'll be chaotic for a while but the world doesn't have a single point of failure.
You have no idea how our power grid works, do you?
The grid is joined over all of europe, a sudden drop or increase in power consumption drops the frequency (or it skyrockets) destroying and shutting down large transformers and most devices. We build only very few of these a year and now we just have blown up all of them. Our world is more connected than you think and blowing up one of the largest players is certainly causing widespread disruption
>>47368273
edit:
if interested, have a look at "blackstarting": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_start
>>47363566
This. Enter A10, good luck all dragons everywhere.
>>47363462
Yes. Very, very easily.
>>47364148
the problem is that the warhead on AA missiles isn't designed for sheer explosive power - AA missiles are designed so that their outer casing breaks up in a circular ring and the shrapnel from that then scythes through important parts of the enemy aircraft and renders it unable to continue flying. (this is why AA missiles tend to be so long compared to AG missiles, the longer the missile the more effective the killzone of the missile)
Dragons have DR though and are a lot more robust than an aluminium skinned aircraft wing - I'd honestly think the Dragon would have to be taken out with cannon or something more like an anti-tank missile than a standard AA missile.
And at the same time, something like the YF-12 with its heat resistance would probably be best for doing boom and zoom runs of a dragon, if it was outfitted with a vulcan or some internal guns.
>>47365147
that just unrealistic - Zeros had problems shooting down F5Fs because the F5F was "too heavily armored" for the piddly guns on the zeros. I'm gonna suggest that Dragons have more DR than F5F.
>>47368291
Nigger, please. The only reasons Warthogs are allowed to exist is because we have complete domination of the sky. They'd get absolutely trashed by any dragon of human intelligence or greater.
>>47368074
For reference, for just one feat (Alternate Form), a red dragon can gain the Alternate Form ability in order to blend in with the populace. With a 1st-level spell (Strength of the True Form), they can cherry-pick the best traits of their true form and their alternate form.
A mature adult red loredrake will also have Scrying (4th-level) and Teleport (5th-level). They can also use items and other temporary bonuses to raise their Intelligence to 26, such that they might use Contact Other Plane and take 10 in order to acquire near-omniscience, especially by asking parity questions (e.g. "Was the answer to the last question true?") or by using theoretical optimization tricks for that spell (e.g. writing down a binary code and then having the greater deity give a one-word answer using the code).
There is no way modern-day Earth can compete with D&D 3.5's mid-level spells.
>>47368320
Nah, dragons are MUCH slower and more unwieldy than traditional air superiority units and they lack serious range, too.
Magic MIGHT make up the difference, but at that point we're basically talking about a wizard vs. a jet.
>>47368300
>I had full confidence in my ability to destroy the Grumman and decided to finish off the enemy fighter with only my 7.7 mm machine guns. I turned the 20 mm cannon switch to the "off" position, and closed in. For some strange reason, even after I had poured about five or six hundred rounds of ammunition directly into the Grumman, the airplane did not fall, but kept on flying. I thought this very odd—it had never happened before—and closed the distance between the two airplanes until I could almost reach out and touch the Grumman. To my surprise, the Grumman's rudder and tail were torn to shreds, looking like an old torn piece of rag. With his plane in such condition, no wonder the pilot was unable to continue fighting! A Zero which had taken that many bullets would have been a ball of fire by now.
>—Saburo Sakai, Zero
>>47368371
>Magic MIGHT make up the difference, but at that point we're basically talking about a wizard vs. a jet.
This is, unfortunately, what 3.5 dragons are, especially as loredrakes and/or dragons with Alternate Form (which some dragons have by default and others can take a feat for).
Let us not even get into the fact that, by RAW, it is fully possible for *anyone* with a breath weapon to take metabreath feats from the Draconomicon and permanently sheathe the entire universe in lingering energy damage for all of eternity.
>>47364085
Just use cross section missiles it should work well enough.
>>47367428
Amazing.
fighter jets hit their targets from miles away and they're considerably faster than most dragons. 3-5 miles is considered 'close range' for a fighter jet, and it is capable of firing at targets much further away. It can attack the dragon without even having to see it.
the only thing that *might* save the dragon is immunity to non magic damage, but even then it can't really do anything to harm the jet.
>>47368637
>the only thing that *might* save the dragon is immunity to non magic damage, but even then it can't really do anything to harm the jet.
In that case we probably have magic missiles.
>>47368418
>metabreath feats from the Draconomicon and permanently sheathe the entire universe in lingering energy damage for all of eternity.
Are we talking about stuff like the Find-City Nuke?
>>47368701
Some nations already do
All of you, look a arcade game called Cyvren
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/cyvern/cyvern.htm
Dragon detects the plane
*teleports behind it*
*grabs the wings of the plane*
"Yahoo, air surfing!"
Seriously, it depends. A giant lizard is dead meat. A giant lizard with spells may be victorious or not, depending on the magic. A dragon that forms a mountain range would simply shrug and return to sleep. A draconic deity could kill every human on the planet.
>>47368811
Oh god I remember that game. Dimahoo was decent as well.
>>47367769
A 5.56mm bullet travels approximately at mach 3. While there are missiles which are faster than that, I doubt they are of the air to air variant. But the dragon's senses coupled with the speed of the missile means the dragon can just breathe a cloud in front of it which the missile is going to invariably hit. The breath weapon can easily melt stone and metal, a small missile isn't going to survive that.
>>47363462
It worked in Gate.
>>47368828
>A draconic deity could kill every human on the planet.
You fucking asshole, I just threw up a little bit.
>>47368855
>gate
>>47368386
Saburo Sakai, Pokrishkin, Robin Olds, Helmut Lipfert....
Why do WW2 pilots write such great memoirs.
>>47368828
What would happen if he used "Plane Shift" while holding a plane? Would he teleport to the next nearest plane?
>>47367346
But anon, technology IS magic.
Or the pilot's wingman uses the magic of friendship and nails the dragon with a missile the dragon didn't get to see coming and magic away.
>>47367988
'Easily'? Magic users have to be able to perceive a problem before they can solve it, Anon. Otherwise kebabs would just outrun the hellfire missiles drones keep dropping on them.
A crop-duster with a 500lb bomb could handle a wizard, no need for a jet.
>>47368059
>And I talk out my ass about jets and missiles I don't know about either.
Okay, we'll be kind and assume the jet is firing an AA missile instead of an antiship weapon that can cripple a destroyer or cruiser with the equivalent of several hundred to several thousand hp. The dragon still has to get in range of the jet, or be able to see it to do jack.
>>47368337
Pretty sure modern day Earth is ahead of 3.5's mid and high tier spells in terms of WMDs, Anon.
>>47368847
The AIM-54 was an air to air missile that traveled at Mach 5, anon. Russia, arguably, has better missiles since the West has mainly been upgrading the AMRAAM instead of investing in new designs.
>>47363832
How would they acquire a lock? A dragon doesn't necessarily have an exhaust or surface IR signature that military aircraft would use. They have curves and non-metallic materials, so they wouldn't have brilliant RADAR reflectivity.
You'd be limited to things like visual signatures, LIDAR, and milimetre wave RADAR.
Until the research was done to nail their flight characteristics and RADAR signature, you couldn't do BVR fighting.
Basically, the pilots in early encounters would be limited to dumbfire weapons or maybe UV only homing. The anon who made the attack helicopter comparison is right, but that adds another problem: dragons using knap-of-earth flying tactics in rough terrain to defeat sensors and evade fire.
That all being said, the dragon would have to use spells to kill the fighter, and that would be a very edgy case.
>>47370015
Immediate blast, probably. Thoroughness? Slimy Doom is a nasty bioweapon. Demonic incursion is pretty nasty. PSYOPS can't compare to unleashing vampires on a nation. The list goes on. There's lot's of worldenders in D&D we simply can't do. Sort of blances them not being able to do nukes (except with rules cheese).
>>47370120
They are quite big. I bet you can shoot them with TV-guided missiles.
>>47370040
There's no point to having such a fast missile with the modern emphasis on bvr combat. The faster the missile, the shorter the range or the bigger the mass.
>>47370193
TV guided missiles have wires, don't they? That means their range is severely limited.
>>47370230
Older version were radio+operator input.
Newer are automatic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_seeker
I guess dragons can go the way of the squid to mess with them though.
>>47370015
No.
Even without going into hilarious metamagic shenanigans, all you need is a single greater metamagic rod of widen and a vial of angel blood or angel tears.
Then a 17th level evil caster may cast Widened Apocalypse From The Sky, and devastate 340 miles of terrain with fire.
Admittedly, the 10d6 damage that rains down will only kill the vast majority of normal mortals and creatures. However, it explicitly damages objects, every single object, so it will also burn down forests, flatten buildings as it damages every single 5 foot square of them, and so on. Warriors of middling strength (~8th level) or higher will be able to survive.
If the caster was a cleric and survived the spell, they can cast Greater Restoration + Heal on themselves and walk off no worse for wear, ready to cast it tomorrow provided they have another vial of angel blood/tears.
>>47370323 (me)
Oh, I should note that by "340 miles" I mean "a 340 mile radius sphere centered on the caster".
680 miles across assuming they're casting it at ground level. It does go vertically too. Poor birds.
>>47370283
70s tech which still needs to be inside visual range to pick target and is defeated by a tank *turning around* let alone the complex hijinks a dragon could do. Hell, a blue dragon could use a line of lightning as a light to hide behind and drop out of the missiles field of view.
The principle is sound, but you'd need research time to make a more robust air-air version.
>>47370323
Sadly (thankfully) there is actually no metamagic rods of widen, so your evil apocalypse caster will have to make do with only the default 10 miles/level radius.
They can instead bring along a greater metamagic rod of maximize to upgrade the 10d6 damage to a flat 60 damage, though.
>>47370456
>>47370283
Not even squid, Prismatic Wall or Sprays would cause it to lose its lock.
I'm also not certain that dragon shit might not work as a form of chaff capable of breaking a radar lock.
>>47370830
>dragons are around
>they can be wizards
>they haven't made a metamagic rod of widen
Do you even Spelunk, son?
People have trouble here understanding modern air combat, especially range and speed.
You have jets going with twice the speed of the sound, its so fast that even SEEING your enemy as a tiny speck of dust on the horizon means you are in point blank dogfighting range. In fact, your range is so fuckhueg and your missiles are so smart most of the time you are going to engage from beyond the horizon and let your missile do its own thing, chances are that your enemy will never even see the actual jet cruising, hiding behind the earths curvature.
>>47370954
If you actually read the fucking thread, you would have seen that this point was brought up multiple times. That doesn't change the fact that Dragons are both intelligent to a level impossible for real world humans and capable of feats of magic that can give them an edge against anything they can encounter.
>>47370994
>NUH UH MY ARMOR NEGATES YOUR ATTACK
>>47370954
That means little in the face of magic.
It really depends on the dragon, which therefore depends on setting.
A chinese myth dragon would flick its tail and summon tornadoes that blow missiles away, or conjure a lightning bolt that detonates the jet's fuel systems.
>>47371010
How do you feel about "Wish you and your entire species out of existence?"
>>47371010
Magic is literally kindergarten level NUH UH I HAVE A FORCE FIELD. And modern day does not have a force field eating dog (magic of its own).
>>47369326
In the case of Sakai,by making most of it up.
>>47367464
Please explain this joke
>>47371181
>France
>warfare
>>47367743
This is is the other way "dragon vs jet fighter" could go. Everyone has so far assumed that the jet gets to surprise an unprepared dragon that has never encountered modern technology, which is a pretty distinct slant in the jet's favor. If the dragon had any sort of prep time, as you described, then it would be pretty intractable. A versatile supernatural entity like that would utterly dominate enemy forces, especially with a horde to finance its endeavors.
>>47371211
Thats a fight that would have to be fought by intelligence agencies though, not jets.
>>47371181
France makes air to air missiles called the R.550 Magic. Is your google broken?
>>47370830
>Not even squid, Prismatic Wall or Sprays would cause it to lose its lock.
It's 70s tech using relative contrast on analog TV. If you can briefly flash light to obscure your edges and drop out of its field of view you're good. Dragons have famously good vision and senses and the lock with TV guidance can't be achieved outside of visual range by definition.
>>47371246
>Who wins in an intelligence gathering competition, a dragon or an SR-71?
>>47371265
From China, pretty much yes. I can only access the hong kong one, and this shit only know pinyin or broken english.
But thanks for delivering
>>47363462
>>47371342
Depends on the dragon. Basically, the whole thing relies very little on the dragon's physical attributes and it all comes down to 3.5e Wizard vs modern day.
>>47366316
And all the Great Dragons know at least one spell that can instantly kill everyone in an entire city.
A bunch of native Americans dancing around a campfire were able to make every volcano in America erupt, so imagine what the collective power of all the Great Dragons could do.
Also, the dragons know all about those guns because, chances are, they helped fund/develop them, and probably bought most of them
Because Dragons like to stay on top too
>>47371342
Modern surveillance tech is bretty damn good.
Question is, how do you track something that can change its appearance. What gives it away when its in human form?
He has to have at least one often used form to interact with his human pawns. Or maybe he does it all through a shadowy organization, shell companies and off shore bank accounts.
>>47371406
>He has to have at least one often used form to interact with his human pawns.
Or he is the entire second-in-command level of his own organisation. Everyone thinks they're dealing with one of his fifteen close advisors/cut-outs. They're all really him.
>>47371436
Wouldnt that be.. beneath an ancient dragon? They are always described as arrogant. But also cunning.
Anyway, he can pull all that off with illusions probably.
>>47371571
Exactly. Depends on the dragon though.
Maybe it's part of the mystique: ever changing faces sort of thing.
>>47371400
>And all the Great Dragons know at least one spell that can instantly kill everyone in an entire city.
Great thing about space lasers is you can either fire them from a remote terminal or by directly accessing them yourself so you do not need to be anywhere near the action and even can program the terminal to take actions on its own for certain conditions. Also dragons won't kill off entire towns unless they really want to lose everything they have. Extraterritoriality has been granted but also can be taken away and large companies are not something you just move between countries, this takes time and most people are probably not willing to move, costing you insane amounts of money. In medieval ages incinerating cities might have worked, but today stuff is more interconnected than ever. Every country has military agreements with others that lead to a chain reaction as it did in WW1 & its sequel.
Great thing about our society is that gold is pretty much useless, so we keep it in bunkers and use money instead. If you fuck with society and inevitably have currencies worldwide drop in value as people rush to exchange it for goods. In other words you make yourself poor rather quickly if you do not exchange it ahead of time into something people still want during an apocalypse (psst, it's not gold). This is very difficult without being noticed by any govt. agency or even larger banks because exchanging billions or even trillions for goods even slowly will cause an inflation rather quickly.
> Also, the dragons know all about those guns because, chances are, they helped fund/develop them, and probably bought most of them
I doubt that governments just sell access to death bringing weapons to the dragons they were designed to kill. Dragons obviously could build their own but then again, this only results in another cold war scenario where whoever shoots first, just dies second.
Probably the only reason most dragons play nice (officially) with others.
>>47371733
Do you really believe that beings that have, in just under 50 years (if memory serves) gone from a pre-Medieval mindset to being some of the most successful business men in the world are not clever enough to realise the existence and insinuate themselves (incognito or not) in the creation of such weapons?
>>47371797
It doesn't matter if they know of the weapon or not. it murders you anyway if fired. The only way to not get atomized is to not give whoever controls it a reason, whatever that reason is that justifies firing a laser. This however implies that both sides play nice, ie dragons not destroying humanity and humans not melting dragons and whatever is inside a 5 mile radius.
What are you going to do, if a rogue entity is flying into space and fires the laser without the need to go through the trouble of security protocols on earth that would prevent access to the control terminal to anyone who tried. It's certainly easier to fly aimlessly in orbit until you find that unmarked satellite. To have a proper effect it has to be somewhat above the target anyway, so in the case of lofy, above Europe somewhere. How is he going to find out who fired a gun not even he has access to. He cannot just randomly shoot his laser at someone else. Well he could but he would only do it if he was certain it destroys whoever vaporized part of his empire.
Dragons are quite dickheads that go their way and don't change. So while he tries to figure out who it was, why don't you fire that thing at his rivals (also not killing them) and see how it unfolds. He has issue with some asian great dragons if I am not mistaken, because he (his company) tries to enter the other dragons territory. I doubt he believes lofy when he says he wasn't the one who fired the laser in retaliation.
At that point it can take a while to calm down, hope you brought enough food up there with you.
>>47371986
These Prisoner;s Dilemma scenarios were heavily gamed in the Cold War, and there's plenty of ways to mitigate actors hiding their involvement.
>>47371733
>I doubt that governments just sell access to death bringing weapons to the dragons they were designed to kill.
No, they kinda do. Mostly because Governments in Shadowrun have very little power compared to Megacorps. If Lorfwyr wants something, he most likely funded it with his own company or he's able to get the country to sell him a few of it.
>>47371986
Actually, it would take several shots to take out a Great Dragon. Edge Burning is not just a thing, it's an in-universe thing for Dragons to be able to warp probability when it interacts with them. A weapon pointed at them from space may quite often just...fail.
>>47371192
In fairness to France. Their modern track record is actually pretty decent as long as whatever conflict they're involved in doesn't get classified as a war.
Peacekeeping and police actions they do okay with.
Plus only Russia is more willing to sell their military hardware to anyone with a chequebook, so their stuff is used fairly widely.
>>47371986
If they know of the weapon, it's only logical that the next step is to ensure that either a) it never gets fired, no matter what, b) if it gets fired, it's only on their say-so or c)it gets fired at the wrong target entirely. This is elementary logic.
>>47371640
don't forget it could mental dominate some random person into doing tasks for it
>>47363462
Could modern tech (not including nukes) take out Ancalagon?
>>47372219
Not including nukes? No.
It's a fucking winged dragon the size of the largest mountain in europe. It's literally Godzilla with wings except about eight times bigger.
Modern Tech would struggle to take out Glauroch the first dragon, and that guy didn't even have wings.
>>47366518
I can't believe those guys didn't develop cancer...OR DID THEY?
>>47372271
>Glauroch the first dragon
...who?
I know who Ancalagon the Black is, but I thought he was supposed to be the Father of Dragons.
>>47372319
Angalcon was the first of the winged dragons. Glauroch was the first ever dragon, no wings, intelligent, bit of a dick and a sore loser.
Not sure if he could breath fire of if that was something Angalcon was the first to do.
To be honest the Godzilla parallel probably holds closer to him than to Angalcon.
Anyway, get's killed by a guy with a magic sword, but the poisonous blood kills the guy in turn.
>>47372090
>Mostly because Governments in Shadowrun have very little power compared to Megacorps
I'd say that depends on the government in question.
> Actually, it would take several shots to take out a Great Dragon.
So fire it multiple times then or get access to multiple lasers, as far as I know one space laser "almost" killed a great dragon, so you would naturally build a laser 10 times the capacity. Even if you don't kill the dragon, you might still create substantial damage to the dragon and it's surroundings. So in case of lofy, make sure you fire at him when he is at SK himself, so even if the laser misses him it still kills everyone around him. He might not acknowledge that but his most valuable assets are his workers. Destroy them and his company can't produce and sell anymore. He certainly has the cash to bridge the income gap but it still can cause widespread disruption. If you can't kill him at least make sure he needs to work extra for his power. Also finding new people to work for him is hard if words gets out that the company tends to get blown up every now and then.
>>47372125
> a) it never gets fired, no matter what
You would have to disallow spaceflight entirely. Fucking with people's freedom of travel always ends badly sooner or later.
> b) if it gets fired, it's only on their say-so
They would need to own it. Even if they helped build the gun in the first place. Whoever gave the order to build it would ensure only they can fire it, so first of all you keep the gun disconnected from any network and you also do not allow anyone to deliver any electronic parts and instead have them made on your own.
> c)it gets fired at the wrong target entirely.
This is rather hard without remote controlling. If you don't trust the lasers targeting system, use the positioning system from your spaceship instead to double check the values or position it manually entirely. Doesn't matter how heavy it is in space.
>>47372090
>Edge Burning is not just a thing, it's an in-universe thing for Dragons to be able to warp probability when it interacts with them. A weapon pointed at them from space may quite often just...fail.
If the laser was designed to shoot dragons it might be pointed at him permanently. I doubt that the ability to warp probability is given 24/7 even without explicitly "asking" it to warp. Also a laser fires instantly. I highly doubt that he can react at the speed of light.
>>47372460
Another possibility is just to sustain fire and move the laser. It will hit eventually
>>47372431
>you would have to disallow spaceflight entirely
Not at all.
>They would need to own it
Again, not the case, only to sabotage it in a way that can be reversed (unlike case a), where they just sabotage it full stop).
>Keep the gun disconnected from every network
You can do that, sure, but you still have to notify the on-site personnel when the time comes to fire it somehow. Not to mention the possibility of one of them being subverted.
>Make your own electronic parts
Anon, that's flat out impossible. That's not how Governments work. They don't own manufacturing companies of their own. They simply assign the project to a trusted manufacturer -and no manufacturer could be so well protected as to not have a single agent from any Dragon in the world.
>c) Fire it manually
That's not paricularly feasible either, but the point was that they could interfere a thousand times in the process long before the situation ever got to "fire it".
>>47363462
I'm surprised that no one so far has mentioned the spell that turns metal to wood. It's not a standard dragon spell, but they could use Wish.
One spell, and all those planes are fucked. And that's if the dragon doesn't just Wish their pilots away, or that all the missiles would explode right then, etc.
>>47365147
Yer know, kirby can do it too.
Did somebody say "depends on setting"?
>>47364053
All a dragon really needs to take out a jet, is the ability to withstand higher amounts of G force, and being able to go supersonic.
>>47367945
The main problem with D&D is how AC and hit chance works.
Something with 20 AC is something thats literally untouchable by humans. Just 20 fucking AC.
Dragons have 40 AC. How it manifests is important.
>>47372682
Well, 20 isn't untouchable.
I mean, 'A good quality weapon' makes it a 1/10 shot for even a 0 stat bonus, no BAB human.
25% can be hit pretty easily by an above average but not legendary level 1 human (16 in stat, 1 BAB, masterwork weapon)
>>47372682
What do you mean by "literally untochable"?
A simple warrior in plate mail and shield has about 20 AC, and can be obliterated with a single lucky bolt, a single hit from a greatsword or a gunshot at close range by an untrained peasant.
>>47372616
The concept itself is cool but what's the point of making something that overpowered.
I couldn't fight that thing even playing Godbound.
Can't we just pull out the stats for something like d20 modern and just run the fucking fight?
>>47371571
Its not like he can just morph into human form, cast Doppleganger, and dominate/persuade those to do their jobs.
If in doubt: You are thinking way to small.
>>47363462
If the fighter jet asks nicely, and the dragon is in the mood, I don't see why not.
What would be a good first date for them? Hanging out in Vvardenfell and feeding the cliffracers, maybe?
>>47372822
You need +hit modifiers to even hit somebody with 20 AC.
Remember: You have +0 to hit without any feats or stats to boost them. And a 1d20 to hit.
Once you reach 30 and 40AC, the question is: How does it scale if looked from the outside?
>>47363566
Most dragons yes, the flying GAU-8 will rip tanks to shreds, dragons have less armor because for flying you need minimum weight. Then again when magic is involved (with dragons always magic is involved) then anything can happen.
>>47372830
I'm fairly sure that thing could take out greater deities in combat without breaking a sweat.
>>47372518
>You can do that, sure, but you still have to notify the on-site personnel when the time comes to fire it somehow. Not to mention the possibility of one of them being subverted.
Ideally the laser is unmanned. You can only fire it from one special institution or by the method I recommend, going up there and rig it.
> That's not how Governments work. They don't own manufacturing companies of their own.
Of course they do, I own a telephone myself made from a government corporation in the 50's that even has the circuit diagram printed on the inside so you can verify everything is in correct order. That trend tends to decrease, but for something as important as an almighty weapon you might want to consider doing it yourself.
>>47372884
Dragons couldn't fly in the real world, so magic has to be involved. Alternatively the material of which dragon scales consist is simply stronger and lighter than modern ceramics.
who wins in a pie eating contest a dragon or a yamato class battleship (ww2 era)?
>>47367731
Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
>>47372931
There's a laser cannon in the DMG for 3.5e and it's not counts-as-magical. Checkmate, atheist.
>>47372830
>>47372892
The Immortal's Handbook is all about making super-epic and super-super-epic (dubbed "cosmic" by the book itself) characters.
D20 system can get out of hand fast.
>>47372953
but what if you shoot the laser at a magically created mirror?
>>47372964
Nuts, posted the wrong one.
>>47372892
>Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.
Gee, I hope there's air in the place between space and entropy.
>>47372908
>>47363566
If dragons are anything like Kaiju from Pacific Rim movie than even GAU-8 is useless,
>>47372953
Then it's not advanced enough.
>>47373033
Every single round they cast a 9th level spell as a free action.
They can literally Wish oxygen into their lungs if they need to breathe by thinking it.
>>47363676
>f-15
>fim-92
no
>>47372994
RAW lasers do not interact with mirrors outside of inflicting damage.
>>47373096
Every round that they spend conscious, at least.
>Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.
>sleep
>>47373176
They wish themselves fully rested.
