Alternate history is:
40% 'Cold War Escalates'
40% 'Nazis Win'
15% 'Steampawnk'
I am running a game that involves players traveling to and working with parallel worlds. I want origional ideas for alternate realities, PREFERABLY 'realistic' ones (not what-if-the-Mayans-had-dinosaurs) and PREFRABLY taking place in the remaining 5% (a universe where the Axis win is basically obligatory).
Feel free to post your own ideas or ideas from works you've seen/read/played.
>>47356617
You might want to check out the alternatehistory.com forums and wiki. Lots of interesting points of divergence there, although "Rome never fell" ones are somewhat annoyingly common. Still, there are many that go with more novel concepts. My favorites are the agricultural timelines. Like Lands of Red and Gold, where a slight mutation in the native yams of the Murray River region led to Australian natives learning the concept of plant cultivation. By the time European explorers land in Australia it's filled with Iron Age civilizations, and that causes all sorts of butterflies. Economic influences from native Australian crops, cultural ones from their religion and philosophies, even a few plagues that spread because unlike in the Americas the larger population density allowed unique diseases to breed in the Australian environment. It's a neat concept.
>>47356617
One where Spain, Portugal and England are still empires where the sun never sets... Only they now literally own the world. Nowhere but Antarctica is not Spain, Portugal, or England. Ever since Australia ceased being a penal colony for England, the Three Forces have agreed to establish Antarctica as a worldwide penal colony. Also: currently, all three monarchs are bickering old ladies.
One where the Umayyad Caliphate managed to conquer all of Europe.
One where the Japan Boom of the 80's resulted in their being far and away the #1 world power.
One where some genius colombian kid who in our universe died an infant from a fever went on to be El Libertador, the greatest of generals, who united the whole continent of America under one flag.
One without the steam engine
One without gunpowder
One without agriculture
etc.
>>47357044
> Rome never fell
That should have been in the origional graph
>>47356617
I've always liked the idea of a hyper aggressive America.
>America conquers Canada in the War of 1812
>Expands west, outright annexes Mexico at the end of the Mexican American War (justified as balancing the slave and free states due to the unbalance caused by annexing Canada)
>Annexes Cuba outright at the end of the Spanish American war
>Invades Colombia for control of Panama to build the Panama canal instead of just sparking a civil war
>Joins WW1 in 1914, demands all former German colonies as part of the peace terms
>As the British Empire collapses the US begins to absorb important colonial possessions such as the Suez Canal
>As of the present America controls almost all of North America and has a large colonial empire, and outright annexes countries it defeats in wars (so after the first Gulf War the US would have invaded and outright annexed Iraq)
>>47356617
>CiV.1899.space_age_colonialism.png
>>47356617
Seriously, just pick up GURPS Infinite Worlds and roll yourself a setting. It takes about 30 seconds and you can have any given setting rolled out of it.
>>47356617
England manged to take the entirety of France before the birth of Jeanne d'Arc. The combined monarchy is one of the biggest players in Europe for centuries... and starts to go to shit in the centuries after when it butts heads with the HRE, the Imperial Crown of Aragon, Poland, and Kalmar's Empire. The breaking point of the dual monarchy was the war against Scotland and Aragon, surrounding the Kingdom and using the lingering resentment of continental nobles to break it apart.
England once again is a realm separate from the French, and it slowly goes to shit after the breakup. "France" doesn't exist as a unified realm, instead separated into the Kingdoms of Brittany, Aquitaine, Burgundy, and the Republic of Paris. The English attempt to start up a colonial Empire in the New World, but they're so far late into the game and so far behind the Scots, Scandanavians, and Iberians that they bankrupt their entire nation in the endeavor. The English "join" into a union with the Scots to save their nation from bankruptcy and the United Kingdom of Great Britain is born.
And then some Germans start shouting "Freiheit, Gleichheit, Brüderlichkeit!" really really loudly...
>>47356617
An-Lushan rebellion never takes place, China stay expansionist and never becomes regressively isolationist. They end up the dominant colonial power, with maybe Indonesia and India becoming major powers alongside it due to proximity.
Skip ahead to maybe the 1800s in a world where Europe took on Eastern culture instead of the other way around, and North America was colonized by East Asians and has East Asian names. Possibly farther ahead technologically as well because China never went backwards like it did.
>>47356617
Temujin dies in his youth, and the Mongol Empire and its successor states (i.e. Yuan China, the Golden Horde, the Timurids) did not occur. Persia remains strong, the Black Death fails to transmit beyond India and Tibet, India remains fragmented city states.
The White Russians win the Russian Civil War. Dominated by the disparate Generals and personalities that led the White Russians, Russia either becomes a federation of various bickering fiefdoms led by Warlords, or a Fascist stratocracy.
The Franks are routed at Tours, Europe converts and then develops its own brand of Islam, with Christianity becoming a minority religion.
-Xu Fu and his colonists land in what is the modern Northwest Coast of the United States the 2nd century BC, transmitting metallurgy and warring-states era Chinese culture into North America.
-A Yuan Dynasty warship bearing Mongols and their horses is blown off course and finds its way to America. The European colonists must deal with equestrian Native American tribes and Khanates that have spent centuries on horseback.
The Black Plague devastates Eurasia. In what would be the 1800s, the first Mesoamerican explorers land on a continent of crumbling relics and hunter-gatherer tribes.
Throwing out a few Harry Turtledove ones:
-Britain and France intervene in the Civil War in support of the Confederate States of America's independence. As a result, the US sides with the Central Powers and the CS with the entente in the first world war.
-Muhammad becomes a Christian saint, and Eurasia is polarized between Byzantium and Persia
-The Spanish Armada successfully lands in Great Britain and occupies it.
Nestorian Christianity takes off in China, more so than its historical acceptance and then fading when the Buddhists rally but instead has a Chinese Constantine and the Far East is a Syriac bastion.
Vinland survives until it is eventually isolated through a mix of the black death and the end of the Viking raiders. The skraelings of North America learn of metallurgy; by the arrival of the first English and French explorers, an Iroquois Confederacy clad in Iron dominates much of the each coast.
The babylonian captivity becomes permanent; the Roman Catholic Church becomes perpetually based in Avignon. Schisms and the Reformation happen earlier.
The caliphate of cordoba persists to the present day, as does a very Muslim spain.
>>47357388
Stop jerking yourself so hard ameri-fag.
> America beating Canada in 1812
OP specified only 'realistic' ideas.
>Only one of Charlemagne's grandsons survive a late recurrence of Justinian's Plague, keeping the Frankish Empire together long enough for laws to change and ensure it can't be hacked up by multiple heirs
>The Vikings never have a strong presence in Europe due to the more united and powerful Franks, instead focus more on Vinland, which eventually becomes separated and merges with the local tribes
>England is annexed into the Frankish Empire
>The Mongolian Invasion hits during the Hundred Years Civil War, managing to establish a permanent Germanic Khanate over time in central Europe
>Mongols install Nestorian Christianity in their courts, and other Christian Heresies resurface in the wake of the collapsing influence of the Catholic Church
>The Moors defeat the Reconquista and begin voyaging to the New World to find a way around the Ottoman's deathgrip on the spice trade
>The Yuan conquer Japan, but a large exodus (including the Imperial Court) flees by boat, eventually finding the coast of South America and establishing another Empire along the entire Pacific coast of the Americas
>A plague after first contact reduced native populations considerably, but recovers stronger than ever under Japanese Hegemony
>Vinland, Frankia (fighting for more land/wealth), the Ottomans, the Moors, the Japanese and their Mayan and Incan Allies basically tear the Americas apart for centuries
>In the Grim Darkness of the Alternate 18th Century, there is Only War...Pic unrelated
>>47356617
America never joins WWII. The war drags on for way longer then it should and ends with treaties rather then outright surrender. Everywhere is shit except for the US where it's all out of a Norman Rockwell painting. On the other hand anti-US sentiments are critically high, especially since the US is looking to swoop in after the war to snag some colonies.
Britain carries out operation paperclip and snags some that Nazi super-science.
>>47357055
>Bolivarian Latin America Setting
My dick is now diamonds, por Dios!
>George III doesn't fuck it up with the colonies, they remain loyal until the 1920s when the colonies become the tail that starts wagging the proverbial dog economically.
>Colonial industry allows England to handily win WWI but post-war America spins off into own nation still nominally under the crown much the way Canada and Australia are.
>Because WWI doesn't put Europe down the meat grinder WWII doesn't happen, the Bolsheviks never overthrow the Czar, and because there's no Nazis to get mixed up with Imperial Japan never gets into a war with America and takes over China without the western world caring too much.
>France expands its relationship with Japan where it had been originally cut off by WWII, pulling a western nation into that conflict. A lot of SEA is balled up in french/japanese colonies.
>Mao Zedong becomes an anti-Japanese terrorist rather than leading a red revolution
>The middle east rises as a secular powerhouse based on oil
>Africa continues to be shit
tl;dr: If George didn't lose the colonies the world would probably still be filled with monarchies and would be a lot cooler.
>>47358670
Fuck all this research and history shit just do 'Nazis win WWII' like everyone else and stop being such a special snowflake.
>>47358330
>America beating Canada
How could we lose to a country that didn't exist?
>>47358794
>>Colonial industry allows England to handily win WWI
Unlikely. A massive part of the reason the US was so industrialized was because of its post-revolution expansion. Even ignoring the Louisiana purchase, the British effectively limited the colonial expansion to the 13 primary colonies after King Phillip's War in which the midwest was technically under British rule but colonial migration into the region was heavily limited. The US becoming a superpower under British control is like Australia or Canada being a superpower.
>>47358956
Americans will use literally any logic to 'prove' that win that war
>>47356617
"Russia" never exists, not as it would be recognized. The Russian lands are never organized into an Empire through Muscovy. The largest current Russian state is the Novgorod Republic, the current largest member of the Hanseatic Confederation. It is also seen as the northern and easternmost "border" of "Europe proper," counter to the Muslim Ruthens of the southern Volga and Tatars of Kazan.
The Ottoman Caliphate stay after WWI and is still just existing but well sickly?
>>47361770
Ataturk was never born then or something?
>>47361821
Such is too bleak a world worth mentioning. Ataturk was a boss.
>>47361852
Explain?
A universe where men's formal hats never went I of fashion, and also the Catholic church was stopped at the Baltics in its attempts to convert all of Europe.
Connection between those two points of divergence optional.
>>47361864
>Africa has deteriorated much in the 21st century. In most regions, it lives no better than it did 200 years ago. Africa's troubles started in the mid 1990's when a breakdown in South African racial reforms led to a bloody race war. By 1998, the white minority in South Africa was either fled (Mostly to South America) or dead. With the whites all gone, the black coalition that had purged the country immediately broke up into battling factions, and South Africa rapidly disintegrated into a mire of tiny, squabbling tribal states. When the TD plague came along, Africa was hit harder than any other part of the world, with fatality rates exceeding 75% in most areas. Over most of the continent civilization was effectively abandoned, as people reverted to tribal society. Technically national governments still exist, but in most places they're little more than a political fiction. Few metropolitan areas remain, but they are filthy, dangerous places ruled by whatever local tyrant can grab the reins of power.
>>47361864
If I had to guess, Boers won the Boer War and decolonization was somehow less of a clusterfuck.
>>47362112
>>47361852
I recognise those maps, you cyberpunk you.
>>47362112
>>47362156
Huh, here I thought I was the only one who read Cyberworld.
>>47362112
>reborn FRCA
this is my shit
>>47362259
>>47362269
FRCA?
So, what do you prefer in alternate histories?
>Nations suddenly becoming aggressively expansionist to fill up place on the maps
Or
>Nations suddenly breaking apart or never uniting so that minor provinces become their own countries
>>47357055
>the whole continent of America
It makes me irrationally angry when people don't differentiate between North and South America.
>>47362306
All the central american countries used to be one country called the Federal Republic of Central America, but it collapsed in 1839.
>>47358613
>especially since the US is looking to swoop in after the war to snag some colonies.
I dunno man, that goes far and away against literally everything the US has ever done politically outside of the North American Continent. While the US has gotten involved in many nations, barring the Spanish-American War (and even that's debatable) the US has never been interested in colonial possessions, and has multiple times outright rejected the concept of them (as it reeked of European colonialism, which they themselves were once victims of). American occupations and interventions have always had a "pull out" objective - they were never planning on permanently staying except to MAYBE establish a safe harbor for warships to refuel. Places like Guam, Samoa, and Puerto Rico were simply territories that just never really left.The Philippines were kind of the exception that proves this rule, and even then what to do with the Philippines was always extremely contentious and the war was very unpopular at home.
Just my two cents.
>>47362259
>Texas is located in "South Central"
>Coahuila is located in "New Tejas"
That is just poor planning.
>>47363120
I can see the CSA fucking around in Africa though.
Also Brazil getting into the colonization game by snatching up Angola.
>>47363167
>I can see the CSA fucking around in Africa though.
Actually, given what we know of the CSA and their political ideals, as well as the culture that permeated the Confederate States at the time of the Civil War, that's surprisingly unlikely.
The CSA, contrary to popular belief, understood that the concept of slavery (as it existed at that time) had an expiration date. It was becoming too difficult (though not impossible) to "justify" morally, and it was beginning to become unprofitable due to the expansion of harvesting technology and processing methods. The problem was, though, that they didn't have a solution that kept white, wealthy landowners in power and still subjugated black Americans to that demographic, and preserved the Southern Aristocracy in the process (Hence why they rebelled, for fear that Northern interests would accelerate the breakup of slavery and therefore threaten their way of life before they could "get to the life boat" so to speak).
The CSA Constitution, while legitimizing explicitly the concept of slavery in their system, outright restricts the purchase of slaves from non-Confederate territories (so no African or Caribbean slaves, just home-grown ones). Even if they kept up with slavery, they wouldn't be interested in Africa because they don't need Africans anymore, and, as a predominantly agrarian economy, wouldn't have much to trade with them in exchange for what they'd want. They'd be much more likely to do business with industrialized nations, trading their cotton and food produce in exchange for manufactured goods that most African nations wouldn't be able to produce at an exportable level.
So, oddly enough, they'd probably want nothing to do with Africa, as they'd have little if anything to offer them.
>>47363284
I didn't mean in a slavery kind of way, but the traditional "raw resources to fuel domestic industry/sometimes settle colonists there" flavor of african colonialism.
>>47363284
I mean hell post ACW one of the biggest pro equality voices was Robert E Lee.
And many of the educated in the South indeed knew that slavery had an expiration date, an it was coming.
>>47363052
it makes me irrationally angry when people call the USA "America" but you don't see me complaining do you
>>47359568
Such as if they actually invaded lower Quebec than trying to get around and through the great lakes. Where is your Canada now, fucker?
>>47363399
The big problem is that the South has little industry to make use of the natural resources, and even less incentive to send colonists overseas. They'd be better off trying to buy Caribbean islands from European powers or annexing Hati or something. They'd be slow to develop industry, slower than any European power at the time, because they can make so much more through agricultural work, so even if they wanted to join in on the big African clusterfuck they'd be very, very late to the game.
>>47356617
The Kingdom of Vinland exists as an actual country, mostly consisting of Newfoundland, eastern Quebec, and Greenland.
>>47357388
This only works if for one reason or another, America is at the brink of collapse at the "now" time.
>>47362112
He wanted an explanation of the Africa in the map, not modern Africa.
>>47363052
Angrier or less angry than "the whole continent of Eurasia"?
>dat map
D E N M A R K S T R O N K
E
N
M
A
R
K
S
T
R
O
N
K
>>47364402
You mean Afroeurasia?
>>47356617
>This entire thread
Either bunch of overdone cliches or just history wank
>>47365347
Please give a good one, then.
>>47364023
At home, where I live, and don't fly the American flag
>>47364296
This is a dope idea OP can get behind.
Thanks m8
>>47356617
/his/ got some alternate realities/maps with some explanations on how they happen you can check out.
>>>/his/1146975
Pic is a kek.
>>47365414
Different anon already gave a perfect solution here: >>47357519
That generator is really good, smothly creating words that aren't wankfest nor boring cliches. And most importantly - doing so in mass-production quantities
>>47365660
Ugh, worlds. Fuck you, auto-correct
>>47365660
I thought you didn't want boring cliches or wankfests, why are you recommending them in high dosage?
>>47363284
Could slavery have adapted?
Early steam and manufacturing requires a lot of grunt work, that doesn't need education or anything, could slaves transition from "mostly pickers" to mill-workers and engine-stokers?
The british mill system was enormously profitable, but I suppose moving towards having their own mills might risk pissing off britain who they used to sell to, but brits were looking elsewhere for cotton anyway. Or were mills mainly a northern thing, and if so why? I know a fair bit about british mills, less so american ones
I've seen a few things about military ventures a few decades pre-ACW, mainly Caribbean islands but also with Mexico considered (Lee turned down one offer to be leader of such an expedition), if those had gone ahead the Confederacy would at least have been bigger and likely richer (though it might have faced insurrections)
>>47356617
Okay hear me out:
What if the Dinosaurs...
Had Mayans?
Used them as slave labour to build their dinosaur pyramids.
>>47365722
The fuck one has to do with another, you dumb cunt? You are rolling a world from a scratch and analysing what comes from it. The hell random chance has to do with cliches, you moron?
This is what I've just rolled after digging out the rulebook for IE
>Change around 2400 BC
>Geopolitical change
>Current TL is very late TL6, meaning few days before WW1
>Dominant culture is Indic
>And as empire
>Organised as dictatorship
So we've got Assyrian Empire that never formed, but managed to raze to the ground most of the city-states it historically conquered. This fucked up Mesopotamia region big time and left everything west of it without stronger civs to copycat from in early period.
Meanwhile, you've got the standard history of everything east from Mesopotam. Since nobody rolled in (Alexander didn't happen) to help out Chandragupta Maurya, the conquest had to be done with own forces, pushing the whole region into constant war for much, much longer period, but in the same time slowing it down, so the consolidation of power was much greater over time. You end up with Ashoka's empire a century later, BUT twice as strong and without the classic issue of brahminst scheming behind his backs to remove Buddism from dominant spot. You end up with entire subcontinent under firm rule.
Since Buddhism never got real support, it barely spread, so it never get to China and never influenced it to RL extent, not to mention Korea and Japan.
Fast-forward till "present" and you have modern-day subcontinent that is an unified state for past two millenias, never really raided from outside (shitload of things never happend or happend much later in the west) that is world only super-power. Whatever you add to it, is your choice
Wank? Maybe. Intentional? Nope, just a bunch of rolls that I've fluffed out on a fly right here, right now.
>>47365779
That seems plausible enough
>>47365779
Sounds pretty rad
>>47365752
Slavery as it existed was doomed by industrialization and moral pressure. Even in the time leading up to the Confederates throwing their fit, it was looked as a "necessary evil" of sorts, even in the South.
Military ventures against the European Colonial Powers in the Caribbean is exceptionally laughable unless they have someone aiding them. At best the CSA could conquer Hati. Mexico is a gamble that the South shouldn't risk taking, especially after the shitshow that was the Republic of Sonora.
Oh they'd have people that would try. This abomination was already in the minds of some Confederates. But it would fail so terribly that you have a better chance of invading Russia in the damn winter while fighting France, Germany, AND the USA at the same time.
>>47365807
And you do not see how fucking awful that looks? Holy shit what.
>>47365807
Let's think about elements you can add to it:
Weaker Buddhism means entire SE Asia remained under strong influence of Hinduism, leaving the entire region much closer to India
You can easily play all the break-ups and reforming of the subcontinent, it doesn't really matter. Hell, maybe the current empire was created quite recently, that's why it's militaristic dictatorship now?
Nobody to colonise shitload of places, leaving them desolated, maybe even undiscovered
Since Islam has a small chance of happening in this setting, you can assume nobody ever tried to conquer and convert the subcontinent with fire and sword, so modern-day Pakistan is very firmly Indic and with much stronger ties to the same culture circles
Since Hellenism never happend, you have MUCH greater diversity in the Mediterraneans and near Middle East, as there were no real forces to homogenise different historical countries/empires
You can easily assume Europe is lagging behind about five centuries, because it started later, so it won't magically catch-up
Who knows, maybe few countries in Africa and Americas that were historically wiped out by Europeans or seriously hapered are still there and still quite potent?
Maybe Americas aren't even discovered at all?
>>47365855
>And you do not see how fucking awful that looks?
Oh, right, the roll didn't happen to be Eurocentric, that's so awful, right?
Get a grip, moron. You are creating alternative history with divergence point in fucking early Bronze Age.
And please enlighten us all what's so "fucking awful" about it. Especially since I can roll now 20 fucking different settings on a fly and then run wild with them instead of "inventing" something that will be always biased this way or another.
That's why random generators are better for this shit than any created world. Because they are random. Darwin rings you a bell? And his greatest impact on science, as in "things tend to happen just because" instead of predestination bullshit and other stuff like that.
>>47365831
Yes, that's the one I was thinking of - obviously the whole damn thing is such a pipe dream that you'd have to be as high as balls on old-style medicine to think you could get it all
But limited action - a few decades before the ACW - seems fairly feasible, if you limit it to the islands that are actively rebelling and Haiti.
A fair few spanish territories seems viable as well, given the weakling spain had become.
Mexico, at least all of it, probably would be too much though
Hell, even the Sonora Republic was popular in the US, even if the actual execution was laughable.
The one thing I don't particularly understand is why slavery is automatically considered doomed by industrialisation - early industry requires a lot of people doing shitty jobs (like I said, I know more about britbong industrialisation, and slavery wasn't really a thing on the mainland) - it's a thing I see repeated over and over (though quite often the planters preferring to sell cotton and sit on their wealth rather than spend it building is mentioned, which makes sense, even if it was dumb in hindsight), but I've never seen "industrialisation = no slavery" explained particularly well (annoyingly the bits of US history we did was post-ACW, as the war itself would have been too big a topic for the portion of the qualification allotted to the "america" unit)
>>47365877
>>47365891
LISTEN to this shit you're coming up with. Uber-balkanized Europe FIVE CENTURIES behind the rest of the world? New World not discovered -at all?- To say nothing of your underestimating the impact of a far, far more influential Egypt and what the Phonecians, the BIGGEST problem with all this is actually in the fact that you're neglecting South-East Asia entirely. If Hinduism is as strong and influential as you're making it out to be, the ocean routes of the silk road would reinforce the original Hindu connection that South-East Asia had with central Asia while DRASTICALLY increasing the importance of Egypt in those trade routes.
Egypt and whatever main civilization that springs up in Arabia would be in direct conflict with the region you're describing for several reasons, most importantly the control of trade. You roll that up and fail to see the bigger picture.
>>47365988
I'd also add his complete lack of understanding of Darwin, and the hilarious
>modern-day subcontinent that is an unified state for past two millenias [sic], never really raided from outside
>>47365891
>>47365988
Both of you keep arguing over this, I'm getting a lot of useful shit out of this and it all sounds cool as fuck.
>PoD in the damn bronze age
>Supersized Indian Dictatorship Empire pitted against Mega Egypt about to start a World War
>China lacks a connection to south Asia through Buddhism, diverges on its own path
Keep it up
>>47365855
Different anon, but you are full of shit. My own roll:
>Point of divergence between 125-100 BC
>Divergence related with politics
>Currently mid-TL7, meaning 50s
>Western culture as dominant
>Multipolar world, with 8 (!!!) dominant western powers
>Oligarchy rule
Let's see... something tried and easy. Sulla played it harder, turning the republic into much more oligarchic in nature, but since senators were pleased, nobody complained. Rome managed to pull it trought for much longer or was just stronger internally.
Now you have offshots of original "Roman Republic" all over the world, controlling wast regions and playing the ball between themselves, but mostly kicking different "barbarians" around the planet.
Oh gee, it's another "Rome survived" world. Soooo boring... new roll!
>Point of divergence around 1600 BC
>Divergence related with high culture
>Currently very early TL6, so 1880s
>Chinese culture is dominant
>Again, multipolar, with 3 dominant Chinese powers
>Under representative democracy
This is piss-easy. Shang dynasty put emphasis on education from the start, so Chinese bureaucracy started roughtly one millenium earlier.
Vietnam, Korea and few other places were not only put under firm Chinese rule, but much faster than late Zhou dynasty.
In short, entire Chinese civilisation was running few centuries ahead with internal reforms leading to formation of the empire.
Now you have China proper, their African Rebel Offshot created after Not!Zheng He voyages and fully sinicised Japan. All of the three, since putting so great emphasis on meritocracy, are democratic societies, that might still have emperors, but they are figureheads similar to RL parliamentar monarchies.
Should I keep rolling?
>>47356617
>Khmer Empire owning Philipines and Malay Peninsula
Return Malay Clay
You are worst Mon
Anyways, my alt-history thing involves a a country called the Confederated Republics of the Rio Bravo, which, at it's height, is the otl states of Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona, Louisiana, Coahuila, Nuevo Leon, Tamaulipas, Chihuahua, Durango, Sonora, Sinaloa, both Baja Californias, pretty much all of the Caribbean islands, and south Florida. And maybe Arkansas but honestly fuck Arkansas
It's more of a Northern Mexico wank then a Texas wank, what with all the Spanish and race mixing and socialism
>>47365988
>>47366008
>Being so butthurt
Not the original anon, but you are so fucking salty it's hilarious.
Why would ANYONE but Europeans bother with discovering Americas? There is entire fucking EMPTY Pacific Ocean between Asia and Americas. Going for Alaska, because it's close? Gee, that's what vikings did with their discovery of Labrador - a piece of frozen rock that was even worse than their homeland Norway.
And what trade you want to control, if the trade nodes are completely different you moron? Literally 2/3 of the world is different and you expect from it to have historical silk road, just because.
This is autism level that is beyond impossible
>>47366046
>>47365807
What's with all the really early Points of Divergence?
>>47365988
>Trade routes
With who you want to trade? Europe is balkanised shitfest of tribals in ancient times, Egypt is the "end line" of trade and Carthage or even Phoenicia never happend.
What ocean routes? Are you aware that nobody in Asia bothered to use sea routes before Portugese rolled in?
And so on and forth. This is hilarious how awfully you are hard-wired for RL outcome no matter the circumstances.
>>47366091
>Are you aware that nobody in Asia bothered to use sea routes before Portugese rolled in?
Why do you fill this imageboard with such lies? Someone is sounding fairly Eurocentric making claims like that.
>>47366068
It just a roll. The table gives you 4 stages: first one got range from 3400 BC to 1100 AD. The lower the very first roll, the sooner the divergence happend, as 2nd row is from 0 to 750 years added, 3rd is from 0 to 125 and 4th is from 0 to 20.
Meaning the first row, thus first dice, is the most important one.
But you can still easily roll a modern or semi-modern divergence if first two rolls be high, so your range will be between 1500 to 1800 AD
>>47366107
Chinese - land
Indians - short routes around the India itself
Malays - short routes around the islands
Sumatrians - short routes around the islands
And you (or the other anon) are talking about GLOBAL routes. There is a huge difference in sailing from say Bengal to Banda Aceh and from Canton to London.
>>47366066
>Why would ANYONE but Europeans bother with discovering Americas?
You mean like the Polynesians? Fuck, what's to stop the Norse from setting up shop there eventually? If Europe is as balkanized as you claim then they'd easily be able to become one of the most dominant powers in the northern regions.
>>47366112
Ah, okay.
I just think that trying to gauge what might happen from really early divergence is a fool's errand, unless you want to specify certain things, and if you want that why roll?
>>47366107
My bad, poorly worded. By "no sea routes" I meant "no truly long-range sea routes". Mostly because of technical limitations. It was just easier to pull short-range trade rather than going the entire way yourself. Sure, more profit, but if you could be local trader and haul the goods twice per year for decent profit OR world-traveller that could pull a route once per 6-8 years, what's more profitable in terms of security?
>>47366127
Memphis to Shanghai. Egyptians are going to want that sweet, sweet Chinese silk.
>>47366142
>Sure, more profit, but if you could be local trader and haul the goods twice per year for decent profit OR world-traveller that could pull a route once per 6-8 years, what's more profitable in terms of security?
You would make a TERRIBLE DM.
>Guys no, don't go on this long quest full of adventure and mystery, stay at home and make stable money!
>>47366133
>Europe Fuck Yeah
Don't want to break it for you, but Norse DID land in America.
Nothing came from it. Ever.
To do such endevour you need to have a REASON to do so. They've sailed and discovered northern outskirts of modern-day Canada. Nothing interesting for agrarian civ.
Columbus was going to fucking Indian and everyone knew he's an idiot given existing data, but the dude was fucking stubborn, so they've finally handled him those three shitty ships to get rid of that annoying fucker. Almost no risk involved, minimal costs and if he finds something - neat bonus. Now think about it - you don't even assume there is something on the other side of this HUUUUGE sea. Why bother going there? Especially since you can just go south, where there is at least some land.
Seriously, I love all those idiots who can't comprehend discovery of Americas isn't something that just can randomly happen. You need a serious, solid reason why to go for such trek. And if you already know there is nothing but water for more than a month of sailing, then good luck convincing anyone without any promise of huge benefits.
>>47366163
The hell one has to do with another?
Plus nice to know you need to have travelling pack of adventures to play tabletop RPG.
>>47364374
The first five points are somewhat feasable.
But taking over the Britsih Empire would ruin Supermerica with endless colonial wars.
>>47366146
So... basically nothing changes? Because the Silk Road ends in Egypt, like it did IRL, but Egyptians can easily go to India and Indians can easily go to south China? Or you can just haul it via land.
In short - still nobody eager to discover anything new, because you don't have any reason to sail west.
But good point about Egyptians and silk, that could be interesting.
>>47366176
You don't understand human motives, you don't see the potential for an age of exploration. You're stagnant. You don't see the players taking the first boat they see and going "fuck yeah let's make some MAD MONEY selling shit in Egypt!"
>>47357055
>One without agriculture
That one is pretty simple. The last 15,000 years would just look exactly the same as the 2.5 million years that preceded it.
>>47366202
>You don't understand human motives
Oh the irony.
People didn't started sailing around the world for the kick of it. It was all about hard cash profit from trade, you idiot.
And if players want to pull such trek, who am I to stop them? But that's players. Not the world around them. If you assume the entire world circles around players and their action, then you sir are a god-awful GM.
>>47366169
To be fair, everyone, even Columbus, knew what was on the other side of the world (he just thought it was closer), they just thought it was uninterupted ocean between them.
If it had been nothing but ocean you could make a case for it being pretty profitable - you make a big enough ship for the journey and you're not getting ripped off at every port you stop at or by every merchant between istanbul and india - it'd be just one long journey, no middle men
>>47366219
>It was all about hard cash profit from trade, you idiot.
EXACTLY!
You could make a decent living staying on your ass at home, or you could make a legend for yourself, become richer than half the people you paid taxes to combined, by taking a gamble. You could kick the dick of that smug Egyptian who claimed Ganesha wasn't graceful.
>>47365964
The thing is, with "slavery" we always think of Southern cattle-slavery.
We tend to forget that in Rome slaves could have high-society jobs, like teaching etc. and were usually only mistreated when they were the lowest of the low.
Or that muslim slaves had rights, or could even have slaves themself or led armies.
>>47366245
>You could kick the dick of that smug Egyptian who claimed Ganesha wasn't graceful.
I needed that laugh.
You two keep this up I am sure as fuck going to use this setting somewhere.
>>47366243
Everyone says "they laughed at Columbus!"
Well, they laughed at him because he was wrong and had his head up in his own ass.
And he was kind of a monster.
It's funny how history got utterly distorted.
>>47366289
They don't say that so much here.
Though if they do it's for the wrong reasons - he thought the world was small, not flat.
But yeah, his dickishness is seriously downplayed
Let's play, Guess That Setting!
As a much needed hint, I will say that I included separatist movements and regions that are largely autonomous as their own countries.
>>47366137
Because it's a generator, that's why. No, really. Plus given how dice and probabilities work, it's most likely to end up with "medium" rolls, so divergence happens usually somewhere between 1000 BC and 500 AD.
Plus I'm using the table for HUMAN divergence. If you want, you can just roll a world from a scratch, but chances are - it will be so-called "empty world". No fun in those if trying to do alt-history setting. Here, some other rolls:
First
>Divergence in 725
>Economic
>Late TL6, so right before WW1 tech
>Dominant Orthodox culture
>Empire
>Oligarchy
So we've got a world with Russo-Mongolian Empire spanning from Oder to Missisipi.
World really went fucked up when Ummayad offensive in France kept on pushing much stronger into the land, but then collapsing even harder. Since both "cradle" of western European medieval civ went to shit and caliphates balkanised to be repelled soon after, you have change of economic patterns (balkanisation, duh), which left west fucked up MUCH harder than IRL. Like never having great empire under Charlemagne.
Second
>Divergence around 3300 BC
>Disaster world
>TL5, so 1550s
>Survival from previous era, Norse culture dominant
>Empire with rivals
>Feudal
Kind of boring, because this could happen IRL. See, in 33rd centure BC, we did have a climate change - the one that turned Sahara into desert. Ramp it up and Fertile Crescent is fucked up completely, so civilisation goes to shit before it even starts.
Everything else comes from the description, you have late-medieval, early Renaissance tech and the Norse are dominant. Since climate is slightly different, why not make Labrador hospitable, so their discovery of it actually DID change history
>TBC
>>47366375
I don't know, but those split western US states look really familiar.
The slightly different colours are also an issue - all the greens could represent parts of a huge green empire, or green/other colour might be a relationship - each green being a semi-autonomous region of each red, for example.
Or they could be completely unrelated.
>>47366415
All completely unrelated, with the exception of Greenland, Iceland, and the Scandie countries. Sorry, was just working off of the palette on the template.
>>47366436
Hmm.
Any clue on era?
>>47366389
Third
>Divergence in mid 27th century BC - doesn't matter because of following rolls
>Myth world
>Divergent tech - TL5+3
>TL8, so late 70s
>Islamic civ dominant
>Multipolar, with 5 (!) islamic world-powers
>Clan/tribal organisation
Well, so we've got a mythical world, so pick whatever myths you want to use as real in this setting. I discourage going full Arabian Nights, as it would be too cliche.
So Islamic civs are dominant, and the tech is relatively high - it's late 70s. Thing is, it's a divergent tech, so everything is based on TL5 - Renaissance. Everything is build and looks as if from Renaissance period AND as if build by Islamic civ, while having stuff like early personal PCs and satelites.
In mythical world, so magic is a thing too.
Kind of wacky, isn't it?
Fourth
>Divergence in 1877 AD
>Technological change
>Further parallel, meaning situation wasn't RL anyway at this point
>TL7, so we are in the 60s
>Western civs are dominant
>Empire with satellite states
>Oligarchy
So let's think... Centralised French Republic and it's Communauté des Nations and colonial holding, the empire under the sun, are having a tight grip over the world, with little help of wireless communication introduced few decades earlier
Fifth
>Divergence in 1550s
>High Culture
>TL4, so Iron Age and medieval
>Survival, Iranian dominant
>Bipolar political situation, so two opposite world-powers, Cold War-style
>Feudal
Well, Persian Empire stronk. Persian traders discover in 1548 Brazil, starting Age of Exploration. World is already divided between Persia proper and it's former colony in South America. Technology is SHIT, since TL4
Sixth
>Divergence in 1770s
>High culture
>Further parallel
>TL8, early 80s
>Orthodox dominant
>Multipolar, with 7 (!!!) world powers
>Theocracy
So we've got Fifth Rome, continuator of glorious Roman Empire, with heavy influence of orthodox patriarchs in politics, who enforced religious law when the time was ripe, as enlightment never reached Russian
>>47366513
21st century.
>>47366245
I've got a clue for you - start playing lolsrandom campaigs, if that suits you. But don't try to enforce it on others.
>>47366245
>No reason to assume there is a profit in expedition X
>Already having a perfect trade route
>Pushing for idiotic and pointless expedition anyway
Seriously, anon?
>>47366254
Chattel slavery was pretty much the norm for most of written history. It's perfectly fine to think of Southern US style chattel slavery when the word slavery is mentioned.
Your description of Mamluks/Janissaries conveniently ignores the roughly 2/3 of Islamic slaves that were born with a vagina, and whose most common job was a sex slave who does housework.
Physical discipline of slaves was very much the rule, no the exception in Rome. Roman slaves had practically no legal protections until well into the imperial age. I'd say it was one of the shittiest and most brutal times for a slave to live in.
>>47366243
Which is the reason why nobody but West Europe had any interest in going even further west, anon. What interest in going west had for example Mamluks? Or Indu?
None, because for the the biggest profit was exactly from being the middleman in existing trade routes. Meanwhile Portugese pushed around the Africa to cut the middleman, both in form of Italians and Arabs and rake "pure" profit of Indian trade, never mind India was already a stop for spices on their way and not the source.
And Columbus was nothing more than idiot with really huge ego and personality that even for his contemporaries was over the line with being a smug dick
>>47366245
Wait. You've got Egyptians as the receiving end of the Silk Road. And... for whatever reason any country on the route would be interested in sailing... west? Especially since the most westward one from China is Egypt, having entire fucking Mediterranean to cross first to even get to Atlantic, while having Red Sea ports and clear road to India/SE Asia?
Are you fucking insane? No wonder the other anon laughed at your idea
>>47366289
>utterly disorted
Only if you are American. I still remember history classes about early age of discovery and both the teacher and the textbook didn't left a single good word about Columbus as a person, noting the only important thing about him was his discovery as such (new land on the west) and not any of his personal accomplishments
>>47356617
How about: Germany wins WW1
>No German backed Communist revolt so no USSR
>US stays isolationist and continues its thing
>With the central powers demands split up between the rest of Europe there most likely wouldn't be any country radicalizing to start a second world war
>>47366879
The russian revolts were a big part of how Germany beat Russia in WWI, you undo that and still have them win?
Half these settings have no PERSONALITY. It's just a though experiment about trade routes and geopolitical disturbances. When players step into a new world they wanna see crazy shit, not have the GM go "alright, let me explain at length the politics of the Silk Road and how it differed here"
> inb4 unquantifiable ass-pain
Like I said, some of them are great and really memorable, the rest are ehhhhh.
>>47356617
Guys, what if
Hear me out
What if the Austrian-Spanish alliance won the war of Spanish Sucession in 1714?
>>47366169
Vinland began it's life exporting timber to Greenland and Iceland. When these two colonies, Vinlands only reason to exist, got depopulated due to falling temperature they also left Vinland.
If Vinland had been self-sufficient they could survive, even maybe keep Greenland and Iceland alive after it got to cold for agriculture.
In a alternative setting, maybe they had trading relations with the locals, found local resources, or even just had a bigger immigrational influx they could have lived on and influenced the history of America.
>>47366375
>aragon
>separatist
come on now, that makes no sense
>>47366912
Germany takes over France first thing, and Russia does not get involved along with minimal involvement from Britian. Hotzendorf suffers a heart attack and the victorious Germany tells Austria Hungary to fuck off with the Serbs. Essentially The Great War is just a minor event between a few powers that ACTUALLY ends before Christmas like what the generals had planned for.
>>47366528
how are you making these
>>47356617
>Rom exists
>But the HRE exists aswell
>>47363621
But that is America.
The only important one, anyway.
And the only one that calls itself "of America."
>>47368951
> Romulus lost to Remus
> Rome is called Reme
> No-one takes it seriously
> HRE tries to use an abbreviation to hide its own silliness
>>47367147
I may have got it wrong, but Aragon and Catalonia went to war over water during a severe drought.
>>47367506
GURPS Infinite Earths, pages 86, 88-91 and 92. The greentext is from generator, the description is a fast interpretation without much care given to details.
In theory, there is better generator with more details, but who really cares? This is usually more than enough to get shit done.
>>47366879
You are at least semi-aware the reasons why Germans were able to wrap things on easter front was exactly because they've helped overthrow tsar and then temporary government, with a simple promise in exchange - an instant cease-fire, to release as many troops as possible and send them on the western front.
Those troops were the exact reason why they didn't get their shit pushed in late '17 and even managed to organise last ditch effort offensive.
>>47363621
>it makes me irrationally angry when people call the USA "America"
The US has called itself "America" and called themselves "Americans" for far longer than other nations in the Western Hemisphere have even existed, and all other nations have some sort of national identifier (Like "Mexican" or "Haitian" or "Colombian"). Anybody else calling themselves "American" is late to the game.
>>47367098
... so literally nothing changes?
France is still in serious debt after the war and the war is lost. Spain is still meaningless clay and more importantly - a bunch of Habsburg-tied idiots are running it (daily reminder French Philiph V and Charles III were within the top-tier rulers of Spain), while Austria wins absolutely nothing out of it.
>>47367126
And maybe also aliens helped them, right?
There was no fucking way to sustain the whole thing without going further south in America, for which there was no support and Vinland already was considered "too much".
Ever heard about "a few acres of snow"? That's what Vinland was for Norse.
>>47367184
Impossible and you know it. Unless Germans would do the original plan, which was still a massive gambit around luring French into Germany and then encirclement.
With infantry.
Armed with bolt-action rifles.
Rings you a bell how this would ended?
>>47367147
>That makes no sense
Ever fucking heard about Catalonia, you dumb nigger?
>>47366528
>Third
Shin Megami Tensei: Halal Edition? Sounds baller as fuck.
>>47356617
Gonna sound racist as fuck but just give it some serious though beforehand.
>Africans actually did something with themselves.
Think how huge that shit would be that because they were the first and existed for the longest that if they also started to develop first rather than stagnate how crazy the world would be. I'm not anywhere near an expert on this shit so i can't even guess on much that would change history but for starters it would probably be a world leader and america would look entirely different if it existed in any capacity at all rather than a new state.
>>47370651
Dunno, never played it. I'm just a guy who had a choice - repeating for Chinese finals or rolling random settings. And everything is better than repeating all the rules for double 了 particle.
>>47370707
>I don't understand basic cause-result relation
Yup, that's just nothing more than thinly veiled /pol/. Bugger off.
>>47370707
What has plagued Africa when it comes to development has little to do with Africans themselves, and far more to do with the fact that since Africa is the cradle of humanity, there are a shit-ton of things there that are really good at killing humanity (especially diseases). Things like the Tsetse Fly and the "sleeping sickness" it caused, have greatly restricted the expansion of agriculture in Africa (As did elephants until the 1950's - The reason Europeans handed out guns like candy in Africa was to try and persuade Africans to kill Elephants and curtail their incredibly destructive behavior towards agricultural land), because Tsetse flies made their home in prime agricultural land. Combine that with the massive climate shifts that plague Africa, and simply creating a massive centralized state like Europeans and Asians would create was just a pipe dream, because either everybody would die or leave.
The sheer volatility of life in Africa greatly stifled innovation in a lot of places, because risk-taking was lethal. You did things the way your ancestors did things because you KNEW that was going to work. Sure, you might not get a whole lot of crop that way, but if you tried something new and it failed, you, and everybody you knew, was dead, or at best sold into slavery so they didn't die of starvation. Europeans, ME's, and Asians didn't have that same level of pressure at the continent-wide level, and were able to innovate farm-tech without risking literally everything in the process, and their environment didn't shift by roughly +/-10*F every 250-300 years or so.
The few places in Africa that developed "true" States endemically were places like Ethiopia and the GReat Lakes region, where circumstances allowed them to innovate without massive social risk in the process.
>>47370753
Like i said. This is an entirely serious idea. I realize the area they inhabited wasn't grand hence the stop of major societal development but assuming that wasn't there to hinder them what would the world look like? Would there even be other races?
If it makes you feel better i'll throw this as another idea.
What if native americans didn't exist? Just all of north america empty minus those that might migrate somehow from elsewhere. I'd certainly cease to exist but assuming everything else in history went the same up to the discovery and landing how fucked would the settlers have been? Would they have sent more?
>>47370858
>Seriously still trying
>>47370806
What would it take to make this possible then? Aggressive depopulation of harmful species right off the bat? What would happen if you stabilised the climate and how would that effect the global climate?
>>47370858
>Idea
>Provides nothing
>>47370909
Anon, how stupid are you to not get the obvious "too many factors to even account for"?
Let's try:
- constant climate shifts, for which you can do nothing
- no decent indigenous draft animals, for which you can do nothing
- one of the biggest sources of metal ores... if you have heavy-industrialised gear
- malaria within all fertile regions, for which you can do nothing
- two massive deserts as the only land without malaria, for which you can do nothing
- pretty hostile fauna, for which you can do nothing without modern weapons
And so on and forth. It's geographical determinism in it's finest. The sole fact how fucked up agriculture is thanks to climate changes and the climate itself renders most attempts pointless.
>>47370909
>What would happen if you stabilised the climate and how would that effect the global climate
Then we would be terraforming other planets at this point, you mong
>>47366540
>>47366710
You literally have no goddamn clue how trade works, and how frequent people will go against the easy path to find greater fortune. This isn't something western Europeans invented. It's in human nature. The Chinese DID sail to Arabia and even Africa in OTL. brought back giraffes even. The only thing that stopped further exploration was the threat of the Mongols back home.
>>47366824
What in the everloving FUCK are you talking about? Egypt is the westernmost point in this trade route, China the easternmost of it. That's how the Indian Ocean trade route worked.
>>47371062
Different anon, but this >>47366824 post was clearly poking fun out of your grand scheme of "send Egyptians to discover Americas anyway, while they are on a receiving end of a perfect trade route".
So nice reading comprehension.
And your idea of "America would be found regardless" is really hilarious
>>47370806
The agricultural example is terrible.
Advances in Western and Eastern agricultural wasn't "Some guy had an idea and the entire culture tried it"
It's always been either gradual change, little here, little there, or an individual/small group trying something new and it catching on when it succeeds.
So it's not applicable at all.
>>47366375
Russia wins the cold war?
>>47371469
The only thing terrible out here is your reading comprehension, but whatever. Keeping this topic afloat will only be massive bait-chewing and the original /pol/tard is only waiting for that
>>47371564
No u
I don't care about the other points, I'm specifically saying that one is a whole load of zebrashit.
>>47371679
Immunity to irony will do that to you, anon.
>>47371376
Where in the FUCK did that come from, and where exactly did I say Egypt would somehow sail to the Americas? And why do you ASSUME that the discovery of the Americas is impossible for both sides of the world? Especially when THE POLYNESIANS MANAGED TO MAKE IT THERE ON THEIR OWN?
EU4 (and other grand strategy games) are good for this.
Like a "japan discovers America first" setting, where the Spanish are surprised to march into Tenochtitlan and discover it already occupied by the Japanese.
>>47371879
>Filename
That's a good one.
Though Grand Strategy can be as silly as it is interesting. Pic related.
>>47371792
... and how did Polynesian achievement affected the world?
You simply said "Someone would sail to Americas". Why? Who? What for? All the parties that would have anything to do in this setting would be perfectly content with existing trade routes, because they would be profitable for them. Egyptians wanting to cut Indian middleman? Simple, just sailing right to China. And reverse, with Chinese going for mad profit and shipping directly to Egypt. See there any America? It's more likely they would find out Australia than America. And Northern Australia isn't very interesting place to even try and settle.
>>47356617
I'm running a game right now set ten years into the future after Boston Dynamic perfected humanoid battle bots that began phasing out regular soldiers.
And then Boston Dynamics revealed they where Nazis all along.
>>47371943
Whatever power appears in the region of Morocco if you are so desperate to cling to the idea that there wouldn't be any European powers. Probably Phonecians or something like them.
>>47371997
We already explained why Phoenicians didn't ever happend at all.
Is it really so fucking hard it's entirely possible to have a setting WITHOUT Americas? Jesus, it's like you are some special kind of retardedOr just American
>>47371997
I've dig out the original post, with Indian civilisation as dominant.
It's Asian-centric setting, you fucking mong. Get over it. There is literally no reason to go to Americas. If you REALLY need them for whatever reason, you could have Japanese/Chinese whaling ships going to Alaska and realising there is some land out there, but it would be - which was also already noted in this very thread - Vinland 2.0 for them. A staging ground for whaling operations. Nothing more. And that is already a massive assumption they wouldn't just use any of the Aleutians, which would be immensely more suitable for whalers.
So I've been watching some Homefront the revolution, and although the game a mess, it had some nice potential for a setting. So, even though it's pretty much ASB, how would you go about getting a plausible invasion of the USA, with any point of divergence from 2016? Balkanizing the country might be more plausible, and even that is pretty damned unlikely.
>>47372225
Ever heard about Freedom Fighters? Pretty decent vidya, with semi-convincing backstory.
>>47372225
Too bad Homefront is based off of zero real life premise. North Korea could NEVER invade the US, no matter what. It just wouldn't happen. Starting a land war with the US is just suicide. If you did somehow manage to gain traction, it would just end with all your troop formations getting tactical nuclear weapons dropped on them.
>>47373293
... unless you point your own nuclear arsenal and say "Oh really?"
But true, the Homefront backstory is a steaming pile of shit. Literally ANYTHING will work, but not NK.
>>47373293
That's why it says it's ASB.
>>47373324
Yeah, at the point you have NK manage it you might as well just say 'Australia took over with mutant Kangaroos'
>>47373324
Starting a strategic exchange over tactical nuclear weapons being used in the country you're invading makes absolutely no sense.
>>47373332
ASB? Never heard the acronym.
>>47373379
You don't get it.
You DON'T start the exchange. Simply give your opponent a chance - you turn them into rubble or they surrender. Their choices is to turn you into rubble too... or just surrender and everyone lives.
You just need to magically transport an army of any decent size right next to American border.
Simple, isn't it? That's why it works so well in movies and games - you don't need to nightmare yourself with all the logistic issues and other problems, you just throw Soviet/Southern American/Alien army at the border and it goes from there.
>>47373379
Ah, sorry. From the wiki "Alien space bats" ("ASBs") is a neologism for plot devices used in alternate history to mean an implausible point of divergence." Fairly common expression in the alternate history community.
>>47372225
Homefront... is that this awful series with almighty North Korea that magically conquered the whole world?
>>47370622
>Aragon is like Catalonia because da aragonese crown and wants independence from spain too!
You know nothing about spain do you
Nor about the sucession war
The whole reason why it started was because Spain-France would be way too OP, whereas the austrian sucesor wasn't heir to Austria and would be harmless, that's why the other countries got involved on that civil war
near the end of the war and after some strokes of luck he had become direct heir to austrian throne, so having austria win would make an even more OP alliance, starting the negotiations between France and Britain where France-Spain would win if they gave some concessions (with Britain as the main winner): Acess to the americas, trade, clay around europe (ever heard of Gibraltar?)
This set many things into motion:
More civil wars to come in Spain, from buthurt Carlists that wanted an austrian king (all the carlist wars, involvement during both republics etc) continually fucking over the country.
French methods of rule, that were shit and didn't quite fit the already existing model of govenrment (going from decentralized to centralized is bound to cause shit) fucking over Spain even more. Speaking of which, this is what caused catalonia to go independent in the first place, after all it's freedoms got fucked over, while aragon didn't suffer that much.
The alliance itself, which took part in various battles (the war of independence on the US), and which allowed easy access for Napoleon to backstab and invade Spain, which resulted in the creation of a constitution and the loss of their colonies
All of this while Britain was gaining traction and power thanks to it's deal with France, getting on track to becoming an empire.
Simply put, that war was the reason spain became irrelevant, an inmediate growth in power for France, and the longterm start to Britain's Empire
It's the very reason why >>47357055
>One where Spain, Portugal and England are still empires
is not a thing
>>47356617
A world where the French monarchy managed to survive the revolution and fleeing to the colonies in North America, founding the Kingdom of Lousiana. Monarchy doesn't go out of style in this timeline - Mexico and Brazil retain their imperial offices and many other American countries take kings of their own.
>>47374098
You know, the french revolution and the spanish colonies' independence was inspired by the Us' independence
I really doubt the french monarchy would be welcome anywhere in the americas
>>47374086
Ever heard about ASB?
That's what you've just did.
>>47374098
>Kingdom of Lousiana
You are at least somewhat aware "Luisiana" was literally an empty piece of land with ZERO control over it aside handful of forts over 1/3 of what is now USA and population below 50 thousands?
Not to mention non-existing infrastructure, since it was literally terrain that could be reached if using Missisipi
>>47358794
You had me until secular ME
>>47358794
>World would be filled with monarchies if not USA
... ever heard about French Revolution? Which would happend regardless of some insignificant colony on the other side of Atlantic?
The one that was TRULY responsible for formation of all those modern-day democracies over Europe and few bloody revolutions?
Besides, there must be something inheritently wrong with you if you even consider feudalism as "cooler" for even a second. It's not an insult. I'ts a simple fact.
There is such great quote from Asimov and his wife. It goes roughtly like this
- How nice it would if we lived a century ago when it was easy to get servants.
- That would be just horrible - WE would be those servants.
>>47374163
Not really. Alien Space Bats?
It's not even alternate history, it's real. Am I misunderstanding?
1/3
Nobody wanted the OP Spain-France alliance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession
>By backing the Habsburg candidate (known to his supporters as King Charles III of Spain) each member of the coalition sought to reduce the power of France, ensure their own territorial and dynastic security, and restore and improve the trade opportunities they had enjoyed under Charles II.
Britain and France started to search for a deal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession#Preliminary_peace_talks
>As early as August 1710 the Tories had initiated secret talks with the French, seeking mutual ground whereon Great Britain and France could dictate peace to the rest of Europe.
>At first the Tories had offered no concrete concessions to the French, but when news of the Allied retreat from Madrid and the defeat at Brihuega reached London in December, Anne's ministers finally resolved to abandon Spain and the Indies to Philip V (provided the thrones of France and Spain remained separate) in return for exclusive territorial and trade advantages.
And having a Spain-Austria had suddenly become a possibility, that no one fucking wanted
>To this end they were aided by the sudden death in April 1711 of Holy Roman Emperor Joseph I. Joseph I's brother, Archduke Charles (Charles III of Spain), was his sole male heir, yet if Charles III was to succeed to the Austrian inheritance as well as that of Spain, the balance of power in Europe would once again be overthrown, this time in favour of the Austrian Habsburgs.
>For the Tories, the threat of a dominant Habsburg empire was no more desirable than a Bourbon one, but for now the need for the Grand Alliance remained: peace was necessary, yet in order to strengthen their negotiating position Queen Anne's ministers stood by the basic strategy of attacking Louis XIV across multiple fronts.
>>47374693
2/3
After this, Britain is on it's way to becoming an empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession#Aftermath
>The Tory party, leaderless and riven by faction, did not survive intact, and their decline paved the way for the eventual rise of Robert Walpole and decades of Whig domination in early Georgian Britain – a country which emerged from the war as a world power, and one which had learnt to utilise its financial muscle to harness European allies for its own strategic interests.
Centralization started to happen in Spain, catalonia was butthurt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession#Peace_of_Utrecht_and_the_final_campaigns
>There remained the struggle in Catalonia. At no stage in the war had there been a unanimous or even majority support for Archduke Charles (Charles III) in the principality
>those who wished to continue fighting could point to the fact that the Kingdoms of Aragon and Valencia, as well as those in Castile, were subject to a regime that had forced them to change their laws and historic constitutions, and at no stage since his victory at Almansa and the subsequent abolition of the fueros in Aragon and Valencia in 1707, had Philip V shown any intention of respecting Catalonia's privileges.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession#Aftermath
>However, the territorial losses had enabled the King and his ministers to concentrate on internal reform and centralisation. For the provinces of the Crown of Aragon this meant the end to much of their political autonomy as they were united into a Castilian Spanish state ruled from Madrid. These steps were problematic and painful, particularly in Catalonia where, despite the survival of Catalan private law and the Catalan language, resentment would linger.
>>47374707
3/4
Carlism kept fucking around in Spain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlism
>Carlism was a significant force in Spanish politics from 1833 until the end of the Francoist regime in 1975. In this capacity, it was the cause of Carlist Wars during the 19th century, and an important factor in the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlist_Wars
French-Spanish alliance participates in the American Revolutionary war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War#Foreign_intervention
>From the spring of 1776, France and Spain had informally been involved in the American Revolutionary War, with French admiral Latouche Tréville having provided supplies, ammunition and guns from France to the United States after Thomas Jefferson encouraged a French alliance. Guns such as de Valliere type were used, playing an important role in such battles as the Battle of Saratoga.
>Franco-British hostilities did not actually break out until June 17, 1778
>Spain finally entered the war officially in June 1779, thus implementing the Treaty of Aranjuez.
>>47374723
4/4
The Peninsular war led to the first Spanish Constitution and the eventual independence of the colonies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsular_War
>War and revolution against Napoleon's occupation led to the Spanish Constitution of 1812, later a cornerstone of European liberalism.[5] The burden of war destroyed the social and economic fabric of Portugal and Spain, and ushered in an era of social turbulence, political instability and economic stagnation. Devastating civil wars between liberal and absolutist factions led by officers trained in the Peninsular War persisted in Iberia until 1850. The cumulative crises and disruptions of invasion, revolution, and restoration led to the independence of most of Spain's American colonies and the independence of Brazil from Portugal.
Napoleon taking advantage of the alliance to invade Spain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsular_War#Origins
>In 1807, Spain was experiencing political chaos and corruption; Charles IV was considered to be incompetent to run the country. Napoleon, now Emperor of the French, decided to take advantage of the dissensions in the Spanish court. Feigning sympathy with their situation, he listened to Charles and his son Ferdinand, inviting them to Paris. Ferdinand responded favourably to Napoleon's advice and asked for the hand of a Bonaparte princess. Napoleon played the part of an ally and coaxed the two Spaniards into believing he had friendly and peaceful intentions. In the absence of Charles and Ferdinand, Napoleon took the opportunity to invade Spain.
How is any of this an ASB?
>>47374376
> Not all good things come from the US
Go back to Russia you commie bastard
Another WWI
Aka Brit/Ger wank
Shortish version
In late XIX german diplomacy managed to isolate France from potential allies, while working as hard as it could to remain in cordial reaction with russians. This ultimately ended in alliance, though also meant breaking up with Austria and Ottomans, which were enemies for Russia.
Meanwhile frenchies still buttmad over Alsace-Lorraine became more and more belligerent and allied themself with betrayed former german friends.
So basically when shit started, it was:
German-Russian block including (but not limited to)
>Germany
>Russia
>Greece
>Serbia
>Persia
vs French Alliance
>France
>Ottoman Empire
>Austria-Hungary
>Japan
>Supported indirectly by the US in later stages
UK stayed out of this shit, distrusting frenchies as much as gerrys (and being afraid of russians)
Italy, Romania and Bulgaria all waged wars against French Alliance on their own,as they couldn't come to terms with Germans and Russians about plans and partitions, it almost ended with another wars over Transylvania, Istria and South Tirol, but they were ultimately wise enough to back off
Germans and Russians won, Greater Germany was achieved, along with many other border changes.
The world is mostly in peace since the Great War, olny proxy wars in colonial regions happen, as the equilibrium between major players - Germany, Russia, UK, USA and emerging Imperial China -is quite stable. France, Italy, Hungary (In the traditional borders of Arpad Crown) and Neo-Byzantium (Greece gained Constantinople and wide swaths of western Anatolia) are minor, but respectable players.
>>47375259
The world is societaly "backwards" by our standards, with most "progressive" and revolutionary movements surpressed by imperialist powers, so the world is still very monarchic, with most rulers being way more than just figureheads, even in the UK democracy is much weaker than now.
Nobility still has the power and decides about everything and class divisions are much sharper than in our reality. Colonial empires still exist, the british one still greatest of them all.
Tech lvl is cyberpunkish, with race to colonize the space just beginning, and becoming another field of the Great Game...
>>47367506
Bunch of new ones, just rolls this time - you can always work on those hooks yourself: Well, maybe small cues
1
>Divergence around 2300 BC
>Economical change
>Currently TL5, early Industrial Revolution
>Islamic civ dominant
>Multipolar, with 4 world powers
>Clan/tribal
Akkadian Empire greatly increasing trade volume, giving much more "funds", maybe even inventing currency itself
2
>Divergence in 1380s BC
>High-interia world - despite divergence, things went almost identical
>Currently TL5, early Industrial Revolution
>Survival: dominant Orthodox - in this case Byzantines
>Diffuse - no "great powers" exist
>Orthodox is feudal
Maybe Minoan civilisation didn't crumble?
3
>Divergence in 1020s BC
>Technological change
>Currently TL4, Age of Sail
>Survival (again!): dominant Chinese (I swear this was a fair roll!)
>Bipolar - two Chinese world powers
>Feudal
Shang dynasty wasn't deposed thanks to marvelous invention of...
4
>Divergence in 280s BC
>Further parallel - things went completely different
>Currently TL9, which means near-future tech (real AI, robots, cyberpunk stuff)
>Islamic civ dominant (and just before anyone ask - depending on TL, there are different tables for each TL, so it's pure chance to get Islamic in completely different TL)
>Multipolar, with 3 world powers
>Dictatorship
280s BC was the tail end of wars of Alexander's successors
5
>Divergence around 50 AD
>Further parallel - things went completely different
>Currently TL7, late WW2 tech
>Western civ dominant
>Empire with rivals
>Representative democracy
So... Claudius and Nero, right?
6
>Divergence in 1975 AD
>Further parallel - things went completely different
>Currently tail end of TL7, so tech just like RL
>Western civ dominant
>Bipolar - I swear those rolls are all clean!
>Dictatorship
Emperor General Nixon? Vietnam?
7
>Divergence in mid 640s AD
>Geopolitical
>Currently TL7, 50s
>Indic civ dominant
>Empire with rivals
>Feudal
Byzantines kicking Arabs in Egypt? Buddhist India?
>>47374693
>>47374707
>>47374723
>>47374734
>Using wikipedia
>Being this tier uneducated
What next? TV Tropes?
Please explain us, when you are on it, the hell it has to do with "France LOST Spanish Succession War" alt-history
>>47375516
>Emperor General Nixon? Vietnam?
Didn't Ford signed in '75 Helsinki Accords? You can just make Cold War hot and southern hemisphere fend for itself with incoming radiation clouds...
>>47375843
Damn, forgot to add pic
An alternate reality where Gavrilo Princip's pistol jammed and he failed to assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
>No First World War
>No Second World War as a result
>No ensuing Cold War (at least one like we had)
>European powers like Britain and France would not have lost their colonial empires as rapidly (or at all), as happened due to economic/social consequences of WW1/WW2
>USA likely would have remained isolationist, as it did before WW1
>Bolshevik revolution in Russia may not have happened, since it was the economic/social strains of WW1 that tipped the Russian people into revolt
You could have a modern day Neo-Imperialist setting where the major European powers are still global superpowers, and still command (or exert significant influence) over their colonial territories.
>>47366952
Yeah, gotta agree with this. The usual internet favorite AH settings are either terribly boring, or just feel so empty and sterile they don't feel real at all. This is made worse by a plethora of autists stroking the "author" off, with all world building decided by a committee of self important people who were probably banned from the local game shop. Hell this thread displays that in full view.
Oh and to the fedoras on AH.com (we all know you're here), leave SM Stirling alone you twits.
Japan controls all of East Asia and Southeast Asia, Germany controls all of Europe, America is isolationist and controls the USA and Mexico as well parts of Latina America, Britian is isolationist and confined to their own island.
How's that?
>>47376095
Don't think this would work. If Princip and Serbia didn't set off that powder keg, something else would have.
>>47375652
You know, you could like, check the articles, and check the citations provided there
It was mostly proof that >>47374086 was in no way an alternate story bullshit
And France losing would mean:
-No British empire, not as we know it at least
-No peninsular wars, and therefore no spanish contitution on which the portuguese, norwegian, mexican and could be based on, which would certainly affect their laws and, by extension, their history; and no invasion of the homeland to trigger an oportunity for the colonies to independize
-If, and only if the austrian sucesor was to become heir of Austria and join both territories, an imbalance of power resulting in war for even more years
It is certainly far more than suggested on >>47370622
how about you stop using buzzwords and tell me what you point is
>>47374376
>... ever heard about French Revolution?
You mean the French Revolution that directly referenced the success of the American revolution, and borrowed ideas from it heavily?
The French Revolution would likely not have been nearly as successful, or even happened at all, without the successful American Revolution precipitating it, and with the ideological and philosophical exchange between the French and Americans.
So yeah, some plague-related alternate timelines...
>Black Death is way more deadly, Europe loses more than 80% of its population. Mass European migrations to Asia and Siberia occur, leaves a trail of bodies all the way to Mongolia. Most of Asia also get infected due to this migration, but by then people had figured out it's rats that brought the disease, and only less than 50% of China's populace dies. What would this lead to?
>Take a modern virus scare/epidemics like Zika, SARS, and MERS, but blow up their spread/deadliness. Write up what happened afterwards. Especially if they happened at roughly the same year.
>1918 Spanish Flu re-occurs in early 1945, would WW2 be disrupted or did the Nazis orchestrate it as a Samson option?
>Africa did not develop Ebola and Malaria has less deadly consequences. What happened during the Colonialist Era?
>The plague that devastated Mississippian culture and its Native American contemporaries somehow got to Europe at roughly the same time. Or maybe earlier. What happens?
>>47371469
>Advances in Western and Eastern agricultural wasn't "Some guy had an idea and the entire culture tried it"
That isn't what I said at all.
>It's always been either gradual change, little here, little there, or an individual/small group trying something new and it catching on when it succeeds.
Yeah, that's how societal-wide innovation works.
You're missing a major point here, though - Africa was insanely unforgiving when it comes to agriculture. You did not try new things, because if you tried something new and you messed it up, you kill a whole lot of people who are dependent on you for survival, and there simply isn't enough food for you to trade with another village for - if you can't take care of yourself, you're dead. That means that risk-taking is hugely avoided, because they knew what worked and didn't fuck with it. Couple this with the randomness of plague, climate, and elephants, and there was almost always not enough food for everybody at pretty much all periods of African history - somebody in each particular society was going hungry, it was just a matter of how many of them were starving before the country imploded.
Europe and Asia had societies in extremely fertile regions that weren't as hostile to human development, and therefore had far more wiggle-room for experimentation.
>>47356617
Miniaturized transistors never developed.
Most advanced computers are still analog/clockwork.
Most settings like this have some competing technology tree-branch replacing the awesome processing power we take for granted, but this usually strains credulity (sequenced genomes, back in the '50s and progressing from there...without computers to crunch the numbers? yeah, tell me another)...but "alternate tech and how it changes the political world" has always seemed more interesting than "for lack of a horse" different politics causing different politics...just look at how the world will change if Google's damn "glider cell towers" actually ever workmost likely areas that were off the grid will now have cheep, wireless, handheld, personal advertising displayers
Even settings that focus mainly on other things can do interesting this with this...the "the Hollows" novels take place in a world with no computing, and little rocketry that USED to have advanced genetics (now banned, and mostly lost) but this is usually overshadowed by the fantasy creatures (vampires, werewolves, etc) revealed when a gene-warfare virus targeting humans, created instead of bombs devastates the populous. The meta-plot deals with all the medical gene therapy that has been abandoned and suppressed.
All this talk about the American War Between the States/Civil War ending differently ignores the HUGE alternate continuity discussions started by the fans of (before you ask, strongly ANTI-racism) "Captan Confederacy" (oddly, many ideas originally presented in this obscure book, much discussed on >>/co/ eventually found there way into the Captan America mythos, and were a big part of the recent movies). The creators had a very well thought out, and detailed, alternate North America, and the letters page was a treasure trove of speculation regarding that "What-If" world.
>>47356617
Modern agriculture's over reliance on mono-cultures rolled a critical failure that we have managed to avoid (in the "developed world" at least), though anti-biotics and pesticides, causing mass shortages--the only regions that can support largish populations are dependent on labour-intensive poly-cultural farming (classic example...98% of all potatoes currently grown are of three species...traditional Paruvian farming required thousands of different species and hybrids, each requiring varied growing conditions...but was mainly immune to the problems that NEED to be solved anew every growing season, now-a-days).
>>47375652
Not original anon, but what the fuck did you expect?
A fully sourced 12 page essay?
On an anonymous anime image forum?
>>47379025
I hope to God this is bait.
This is like saying the Beatles ripped off Glee
>>47356617
Roman Empire DOSEN'T ban petroleum plastics research (look it up, this actually happened). Empire still falls, but the remnant of "artesian workshop science" is much stronger. Dark Age of Europe is littered with thousands of competing workshops, supplying their particular noble patrons with "DiVincian-style" gizmos and materials.
Crusades look entirely different.
European "Age of Exploration" looks entirely different.
Alternately, "Pastwatch: the Redemption of Chrisopher Columbus" deals with both an "erased" history, and a "new" one (both caused by time travelers from the respective erased futures, where Aztecs had one more generation to assimilate the technology of their vassal nation-states (mainly large ship building).
United States honors mutual aid treaty with Iraqoi League. The Seven Nations continue as independent entities occupying major coal-mining regions or are incorporated as new US states (either way drastically altering dominate cultural influences in developing nation during "Manifest Destiny" westward expansion/consolidation of colonies, post Civil War, or United Kingdom/US borders post French and Indian War).
Reversals
>Mongols get blown out by the Caliphate instead of wrecking them
>the typhoons never show up to save Japan those couple of times
Mundane stuff
>Keynes successfully convinces the Americans to promote the Bancor in 1944
>The Andes are not a mountain range, but a great flat plains stretching across the continent
Modern history/current events
>Limited engagement turns into full-blown total war between India and Pakistan in 1999
>Haiti doesn't kill all the people who know how to run shit, instead creates white slave state in 1804 and turns into a major Caribbean player while simultaneously
>>47376095
>Being so uneducated
Mate, that very day, there were few others attempts of assassination. Princip was simply the first of many to actually kill the Archduke.
So if not him, there were another 20 people that day waiting for Ferdinand.
>>47366952
>>47376111
>AH
>Expects from it something else than autismos wanking around different politics
You are missing the point of the genre.Personally I don't know single AH setting that would have actually fun as a setting and not just wankfest
Napoleoic Europe.
Khan Dynatic Asia.
Poltomic Kingdom Mediterranean.
Carthaginian Empire.
A charismatic leader being born earlier could have hastened the Gothic conquest of the Western Roman Empire by generations, the same for Indian expansion west and east along the Silk Road.
Hell, go back really far for a divergence point, have the Nubians conquire the Egyptians.
The Third Riech is overdone, change a different one generation conquest, to a dynasty already.
Or remove a successful counter-conquest...no Boxer Rebelion means colonial Europe would have MUCH more money and south-west Asia would have had a history more like India, the Middle East, and South Africa.
>>47378230
The point was already stated - it wouldn't change shit if France would lost that war. Spanish colonies would be mis-managed for another 30 years longer, which makes no difference on world-scale.
>>47379025
The only proper way to adress your bait:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M
>>47379178
It's called "Years of Rice and Salt" and you should read it... or stop pretending you are not ripping it off
>>47383445
Where are your bats?
>>47379025
Please stop
>>47356617
What if the Nazis Win in Europe, but get into a Cold War with the Americas and the Eastasians, and the stalemate when someone invents Giant Punchy Robots that run on Steam power?
>>47383238
>Roman Empire DOSEN'T ban petroleum plastics research (look it up, this actually happened)
mind expounding on this further, can't find anything beyond some stuff I already knew(like them using Bitumen as a form of cement, and how like a bunch of other ancient cultures, used certain oils for medicinal purposes)
also glad to see another fan of Pastwach on /tg/ it's both one of my favorite Orson Scott Card works, and also one of the last novels by him that's actually any good
>>47383441
>Personally I don't know single AH setting that would have actually fun as a setting and not just wankfest
depends on how out there you're looking, Green Antartica is still a favorite of mine(along with many of the other timelines created by DValdron over the years)
>>47383558
>Green Antartica
Never heard about it.
Most AH settings I've got contact with are already in this thread - a boring trite repeated ad nauseaum, like
>Rome never fell, so inventive!
>Nazis won WW2, much ceativity!
>American Civil War, because I'm American!
>Huge doses of ASBs allowed X to become world-power!
>This famous person lived/was killed, brace yourself for massive impact!
And so on and forth. Literally NOTHING interesting. Honestly, I prefer alternative dimensions, because of history wank they just focus on the fun bits in completely different world that barely shares the planet (in size, that is)
>>47383558
Also, Postwatch is a curious case of wankfest until the reveal, where you learn the timeline of this world is an effect of someone's else wank and shit gets interesting from there, even if it reads more like fantasy than anything else.
For a history class I need to put together an alternate history proposal. What I'm planning so far is that instead of abandoning the Chinese to communists after World War II, we actually backed them up and tried to stop communism there.
>>47379178
Black Death originated in China, it spread through the trade routes.
Zika's only real concern is its ability to cause birth defects, SARS and MERS aren't going to be any different than a flu pandemic.
We had antibiotics and flu vaccines by WWII.
First recorded case of Ebola was in 1976 and malaria is but one of many tropical diseases that failed to have a massive impact on colonialism.
The Mississippian culture is theorized to have declined from climate changes, deforestation, and overuse of natural resources. The diseases that devastated them came from European explorers.
>>47383614
That wouldn't change anything. Kuomintang didn't have support of the rural masses, which Communists were building entire 30s and during WW2. Then entire divisions of Kuomintang changed sides, because it was easier to just change the flag than being shot at.
In short - you would have to change Kuomintang policy after Jiang Jieshi (or Chiang Kai-Shek) took power.
>>47383614
Instead of pointless support after WW2, how about Americans actually giving real support with Land Lease? After all, it was created as a way to back-up Chinese Republic against commies and Japs
>>47383614
>>47383649
Maybe a balkanized China? Koumintang controlled coast with Maoist controlled interior?
>>47383684
>Balkanized China
China WAS balkanized, you stupid uneducated mong! Real control of Kuomintang never extended beyond 2/3 of China.
>>47383649
Hmmm, okay. So you don't think full support from the U.S. (instead of just the ~$2 billion in aid) would have been successful in preventing China's fall?
What would it have actually taken, do you think?
I'll be honest, I'm not really opposed to some level of "asb" but I'd like it to at least be somewhat reasonable.
>>47383695
No, I mean a world where China as we know it is formed of multiple stable nations.
>>47383720
>>47383684
This is also something I was considering.
>>47383707
>~$2 billion in aid
My fucking sides.
Go read about American ambassador to China from that period. This guy was an asshole single-handly responsible from China not receiving any help or barely any help whatsoever.
>>47383749
Alright thanks! That could certainly be a point of change as well.
Mainly, I'm rather interested in how future conflicts would have played out with an allied capitalistic China. They'd almost certainly be on par with the U.S. if not even more powerful.
>>47383772
Who says anything about conflicts?
Jesus, why people are so fucking obsessed with generating conflict out of everything?
Economical competition - of course. Conflict? What is this? Japanophobia 2.0?
>>47383846
Uhhh... I don't know. The numerous conflicts that have happened since World War II? The Cold War and the various proxy wars that occurred during it would likely have played out significantly differently if China had been an allied democracy. What the hell are you talking about?
>>47383910
Then you would have US-China relations similar to those of US-EU... Politics, right?
>>47356617
A world where the medieval warm period never ended: instead the climate got hotter and hotter until the tropics become uninhabitable and virtually impassible due to temperatures between 60-90 C (140-200 F).
-There is no ice at the North Pole anymore and passage across this sea is now common.
-Nothing south of England remains habitable: it's a vast desert.
-Scandinavia is the most relevant superpower. Greenland is their breadbasket.
-The Japanese invaded Kamchatka and Alaska and are the dominant force in the Pacific.
-Britain is hanging in there but their climate is barely tolerable and the vikings keep fucking with them.
-The rest of Europe is fucked: even in places like Denmark and and Poland where the climate isn't lethal they've had to deal with waves of invasions from the South as those nations have fled the heat and famine along with their own crop failures.
-Russia is in okay shape except that they've had to deal with invasion from every front, but they can at least feed themselves.
-Christianity survives in Britain but is otherwise dead. Islam is dead. Various pagan religions are dominant.
-Inuit and Yupik peoples had to adapt their lifestyles rapidly and faced massive invasions from the south, and they were not ready for war, and so were largely overrun by other Amerindian tribes as well as losing land to the Scandinavians and Japanese. The dominant native cultures in North America are the Sioux in the West and the Iroquois in the East.
-Unknown to anyone in Europe, there's an Inca supernation growing in Antarctica.
>>47383950
Okay, I think we're talking past each other. I'm simply saying that I'm interested in how significant events during the 60 years after World War II would play out with China as an ally instead of an enemy.
>>47383960
>I know jack shit about geography
>Or physics for that matter
>>47383983
You've got a country that is right next to Soviets, and said country is fuck-huge. Korean War ended after UN offensive, since no "Chinese volunteers" ever happend. Vietnam never happend.
So you've got two important results here, really:
- MUCH stronger Cold War tension, with this fuck-huge country right next to soft Siberian underbelly of Soviet Union
- UN that proves itself early on as very effective force, which could be quite nice
On the downside, learning Chinese would be fucking horrible, since Republic is still using traditional characters and was always favouring southern dialects as the basis for "main" Chinese. Four tones are bad. Sixteen are nightmare.
>>47356617
>only one kongo
Shaka Zulu wins and his sons build an empire, rivaling the UK.
Dschingis Khan appoints an heir, no infighting happens.
Aztecs / Mayas beat the conquesting europeans.
Tesla lives longer and is recognized by the world.
There is no coal/radioactive substances.
Indians, as in Native americans, organize and beat the invaders.
Japan invades China and is not driven out.
>Just some ideas I had for a while now.
>>47356617
The amount of empires on this map is just plain annoying
>>47384527
>Shaka Zulu wins and his sons build an empire, rivaling the UK.
ASB
>Chingis Khan appoints an heir, no infighting happens.
ASB
>Aztecs / Mayas beat the conquesting europeans.
ASB
>Tesla lives longer and is recognized by the world.
And that changes what?
>There is no coal/radioactive substances.
Do you even physics, dumb nigger?
>Indians, as in Native americans, organize and beat the invaders.
Passable, since confederations were pretty effective
>Japan invades China and is not driven out.
What period are we talking about? Because it ranges from doable to absolutely ASB
>>47384527
>Shaka Zulu wins and his sons build an empire, rivaling the UK.
Danny, you are pushing our luck too much
>>47384573
Wait, there is a HD restored version of it?!
>>47384402
Well thank you for that helpful, constructive post. Why exactly does the geography/physics not work? Not arguing with you, just want to know how to improve the idea and "ur dum" isn't very helpful.
>>47384527
>Indians, as in Native americans, organize and beat the invaders.
Really all that would be required is immunity to European disease. It's very unlikely the Europeans would have been able to conquer the Americas if facing the natives at full strength.
The Soviet August Coup is successful and Janajev makes Russia great again.
>>47384547
>>There is no coal/radioactive substances.
>>>Do you even physics, dumb nigger?
There's this helpful guy again.
If the nebula which formed our solar system was formed from a less massive star, far less of the heavy elements would exist. There are assuredly plenty of star systems out there where elements like uranium and plutonium are so rare that nuclear power just wouldn't be realistic.
>But there would still be radioactive substances.
But it's clear he was talking about substances viable as a power source.
>coal
And a world without coal is even easier: no wood = no coal. We could even have there be very little petroleum by advancing the evolution of aerobic respiration much sooner after the evolution of photosynthesis.
Now both of these ideas (rarer heavy elements, wood never evolved) make for a MUCH different world, enough that it no longer qualifies as "alternate history" and would start to become "an alien world with no resemblance to Earth" because the 1) the ratios of the elements on our planet would be very different if the nebula came from a lighter star, it wouldn't just be heavy elements that were rarer and 2) trees have a huge impact on how life on Earth, and particularly humans, have evolved. Without them the planet would simply be too different to recognize.
So, no, I also dislike the "no coal or nuclear" world, but see what I did there? Instead of just telling him he's a moron I told him exactly why I thought his idea wouldn't work.
>>47388498
You could probably do something with changing the geographic locations of coal and uranium deposits.
>>47388233
The idea goes to shit around this part
>temperatures between 60-90 C
Ever heard about convection? I guess not. Everything that follows is just such complete bullshit it's just amazing. So you have this massive desert, cross the Channel (which would fucking get DRY) and you are suddenly in savanna, pronto. Or how Sweden is swell, but Denmark, 200 km south of open ground is dead, while apparently somehow Sund didn't get dry. And with such great changes in temperatures, you would have completely swapped pattern of sea-currents, so any talking about this or that place being "intact" is bullshit. Especially Russia, which would be completely cut out from oceanic air and would turn into Central Asia style deserts.
So in short - this is unsalvagable piece of shit and your education is so fucking lacking I openly consider you being underage sneaking on adult-only page.Or just American
>>47388233
Not that guy, but I'll bite.
Well for one thing a global increase in temperature doesn't just make the equator shit and the poles nice. You've got oceans near boiling: what do you think that's going to do to the weather? It would result in a fuck-ton more moisture in the atmosphere meaning the planet becomes a sauna, and we've basically just become venus, with temperatures UNIFORMLY high because we couldn't radiate enough heat into space.
Just dial back the absurd temperatures you've assigned to the tropics; I get that you want the tropics to not only be uninhabitable but also IMPASSIBLE but I don't think that's necessary to get the feel you're going for. No civilization could have sailed from Europe to Antarctica during the Medieval Warm period anyway so your near-boiling seas aren't necessary to keep your Incan Antarctica isolated. By the time your Vikings or Japanese develop the ships that can make the voyage the Incans will have had plenty of time to develop into whatever cool thing you want them to be.
There have been plenty of time periods on Earth with zero ice at the poles, and in plenty of those periods much of the landmass was largely desert. The core idea is fine, just dial back the numbers some.
I'm not sure what his beef is with your geography though. I have a little trouble with how your Japanese are able to adapt fast enough to move their whole civilization north, but it isn't impossible.
>>47388498
>Shit so dumb it's unsalvagable gets posted
>HURRR YOU ARE NOT HELPING DURRR
It's very, very simple. Some of those ideas are so fucking stupid the only thing that could be done is sight in disbelief.
And you are seriously trying to get HUMANITY in a world that had completely different biological structure. At the point of "no trees" you could pretty much just play it on different planet colonised by humans, you stupid, uneducated, ignorant shit.
People like you disgust me, because it shows how dumb one can be without even realising they are missing some trivial, basic school knowledge.
>>47388719
My beef with his geography is how they teach on elementry-tier geo how climate works. And he still doesn't get the very basics of it. Hence my beef.
>>47388714
>The idea goes to shit around this part
>temperatures between 60-90 C
Alright, too hot, got it.
>So you have this massive desert, cross the Channel (which would fucking get DRY) and you are suddenly in savanna, pronto.
I'm pretty sure I said England was "hanging on" not that it was a chill place to be.
>Or how Sweden is swell, but Denmark, 200 km south of open ground is dead, while apparently somehow Sund didn't get dry
I noted that it was warfare and starvation more than climate that fucked Denmark, the heat and famine driving the rest of Europe North. Norway has sea to protect it from the worst of the mass migration. And it's not that Scandinavia is untouched, it's just that on balance they're better off than anyone else. Greenland is more relevant to their dominance than Scandinavia itself.
>And with such great changes in temperatures, you would have completely swapped pattern of sea-currents, so any talking about this or that place being "intact" is bullshit. Especially Russia, which would be completely cut out from oceanic air and would turn into Central Asia style deserts.
Russia isn't intact, I said it's in "okay shape". Their southern areas will be shit like everything else, but their Northern extremes bordering on the Arctic Ocean would be much improved to compensate. How would they be cut off from oceanic air? New air/sea currents would form in the now Mediterranean-like Arctic Ocean to bring them moisture. The core of the setting the the Arctic Ocean acting as the new "center of the world" like the Mediterranean used to be.
>So in short - this is unsalvagable piece of shit and your education is so fucking lacking I openly consider you being underage sneaking on adult-only page.
>Or just American
What's your problem? Holy shit dude.
>>47388719
>Just dial back the absurd temperatures you've assigned to the tropics
Got it.
>>47388754
No, see, I was shooting down his idea as well. I was telling him WHY I was shooting it down.
>At the point of "no trees" you could pretty much just play it on different planet colonised by humans, you stupid, uneducated, ignorant shit.
And that's exactly what I said, minus the pointless frothing.
I actually agree with you that it was a bad idea, I'm just being constructive about it.
>>47388411
The probably is ofcourse that the 1991 coup accelerated the disintegration of the Sovuet Union. Without it you would have seen some survival of the Soviet Union, but the coup convinces all those small baltic nations and the like it's not safe to stick around. Better to butterfly that coup away completely with some earlier point of divergence.
>>47356617
>that pic
>mongoloids and BRs are empires
The Athenian phalanx is broken at Marathon by timely use of archers and cavalry, and Greek resistance to Persian overlordship is a footnote in Darius' lifetime of rule. The Persian empire still falls eventually, but Europe and the Near East are inextricably linked as a unified entity in the thought of the Mediterranean world.
>>47383414
>The venerable Kami don't prevent glorious Nihon from the Mongols
Aren't we supposed to be realistic here?
An obscure Central Asian general in the Red Army takes over the Soviet Union in the interwar period and conquers most of Europe and Asia before being defeated by a coalition of the rest of the world powers. In redrawing the map of Asia after his defeat, independence is granted or tacitly accepted in many former colonies and much of the region has laws built upon the code established during Soviet rule. The dictator goes into the history books along the likes of Alexander the Great and Napoleon. His descendants and admirers remain a recurring theme in 20th century Russian politics even after communism collapses.
>>47392089
The Kami got fucked up by Buddha in the War of Heavens
>Be me
>Be autistic
>Spend the last 8 years developing a althistory world where the US is Fascist, USSR never collapsed, and Germany becomes soft-nazi
>Have profiles and histories for almost every country in the world by now. only Bhutan, Gabon, Central African Republic, Benin, and The Gambia are left.
>Have never shared it with anybody
feels bad man
>>47392176
Is this an alternate history pic? Because historically "Red Napoleon" was a term to refer to the Bolshevik's paranoid fear that a Red Army military officer would overthrow their rule and reestablish a Russian Empire. It was a huge part of their defense policy and thinking and culminated in Stalin's Purges.
>>47392997
>the US is fascist
What, was the US just not founded on personal liberties in your world? Because the whole "leftists and rightists both have guns" thing really hampers fascism's ability to get shit done in North America.
>>47389015
My problem is simple: your education is seriously lacking, so you are creating baby's first post-apo wankfest while being amazed people don't love it
>>47392997
Is your documentation easily transferrable to an online database? Maybe make a Twitter and give info out daily.
>>47393064
Have a coup take place. It's not too hard, really.
