How would you fix monks?
>>47354812
With duct tape
By playing 4e.
They're fine in 5e. The major suggestion however is that the Elemental Master might be a little underpowered, but can be easily fixed by increasing their ki pool a little.
Same way you fix all Martials give them super-human and supernatural abilities that allow them to compete with Casters
Of course nobody wants to do that because WEEB and NOT MUH generic western fantasy world #35268
By not playing D&D.
>>47354919
>D&D is my trigger
Fuck off already.
>>47354812
By not playing D&D.
Aside from that, I wouldn't relagate being able to punch people to just a specific class. If you watch any amount of kung-fu movies you see people of all sorts from beggers to politicians who can fight to some degree.
As far as D&D goes they need to give more love to monks in general other then treating them like a red headed step child considering D&D as a whole is a kitchen sink sort of deal and not just some faggot elf song lord of the rings Europenis fantasy where people who swing swords and axes at each other is fine but apparently they can't, for the life of them punch a mother fucker out.
More so still the assholes who complain about it not being realistic when you have dudes who can shoot fireballs out of their assholes and that's the least of what you'd have to worry about from them.
With hard work and guts. Casters are easy mode.
>>47354895
How are they fine in 5e?
They still suck.
>>47354919
>>47354940
>being this dumb
Might want to try "not being retarded" before you try posting next time.
>>47354812
Multiclass into Druid or Cleric, then some spellcaster-friendly monk PrC like Sacred Fist.
>>47354974
Still doesn't change the fact you have neck bears who go "Muh D&D is a traditional European fantasy setting!" when Monk is a core class, hence why they are treated like shit for the most part
I just want to suplex dragons and power bomb ogres god dammnit!
>>47354965
They've got a lot of fun options with their ki pool, and they are pretty consistent with the damage they deal. More ki points would be welcome, but even just switching to the "5-minute short rest" variant rule makes them a great class.
Make them just punchy or just weapon-y.
Go full Avatar
Monks are fine if you play them knowing full well going in that your character will never be the star of the show. You will be that guy who glides around during the encounter with that ridiculous movement and delivering precision strikes where they are needed most.
When I play I mostly hang to the side, try to help where I can and occasionally pull some crazy unexpected monk shenanigans when I think I can get away with it. Also being an asset to your party may not always be determined by how much damage you deal but by furthering the party's objective at critical junctures. Once during a boss fight I completely ignored him and all his minions and went straight for the vip hostage. Picked him up and spent a ki point to disengage before the party wizard lit the boss up.
>pic related how I monk
>>47354812
Play Legends of the Wulin
>>47354999
>>47354999
That's hardly an issue with the system itself.
And no, I'm not interested in whatever contrived manner you want to continue to try and blame the system, or in this case, systems.
If anything, it just sounds like you want to play at very high levels.
>>47354812
I would not play D&D and start playing a better system.
>>47354912
>compete with the other members of your party
See that's where you are doing it wrong.
>>47355819
Tsss.. You are hurting his feelings
>>47355819
Edgy.
I found you can fix the horribly underpowered 3.5 monk by raising his BAB table to the fighters. Everything else just falls into place, and hes usefull.
>>47355891
Keep Up then
because lets face it no one wants to sit around while the wizard does everything and uses his big magic dick to facefuck reality
>>47354812
>>47354895
>>47354965
>>47355020
In 5e, I would fix monks by:
1. Splitting into sub-classes earlier, either at level one or two.
2. Better melee defense at level 1- either adding prof bonus to AC as a reaction, or a better way of avoiding opportunity attacks.
3. Re-write the "martial arts" feature. That thing is the most confusingly written block of text in the entire book, and a huge turn-off for new players. Explaining to new players the deference between "monk weapons" and "weapons the monk is proficient in" or between the bonus action attack and flurry of blows is bad, and made worse by having to re-explain it over and over until they give up and play a different class.
4. Just make "4-element" monks into 1/3 casters, borrowing from the Druid's spell list the way EKs borrow from the wizard. If they MUST use ki points to power their abilities, give them extra ki points according to the point/slot conversion table.
5. Give monks bonuses to things like grappling. Probably via expertise in athletics/acrobatics.
>>47355244
Or Anima: Beyond Fantasy.
>tfw, through adroit use of holds offered by Pankration and Melkaiah, you pin a mile long dragon 5 levels above yours to the ground and it has to beg you to let it up.
>>47355819
>>47354919
We get it, D&D makes your pooper hurt. You actually have anything useful to add to the discussion?
>>47355233
after just playing a vanilla 3.5 monk to 12th level, i 100% agree with this
>>47354812
give them monk spells. make sure they aren't just "do some damage, do some more damage. stun a dude, daze a dude"
I'm currently playing with a monk in my party and he's great, runs around punching stuff and doing solid damage
if you were to have a party filled with meta-gaming powergaming munchkins min maxxed to shit with sorclocks just shooting eldritch hex blast all day then yea a monk couldn't keep up
if you play with normal people then it's fine, just like any class
>>47354812
WIS bonus as a buff to all other stats. Fluffy and reduces MAD.
>>47356156
If magic is that powerful then why not just make everyone a variant of the wizard?
"Buh not my martial" isn't really an argument when you stop to consider that martials depend more on magic than their mage counterparts.
>>47354961
>Casters are easy mode.
What's wrong with easy mode?
I get a bajillion different spells to choose from, I become better with age like a fine wine, and creatures like angels and demons can be bound to my will.
Meanwhile, martials get better at hitting things...okay?
>>47363794
>>47363824
will there ever come a day where a game is released wherein martials and magic users are equal?
>>47363926
Literally DnD 4rry edition.
>>47363926
That'd be a shitty game.
>>47363926
Oh, there are games where martials and mages are equal.
It's just that most times, people have an idea in their brains where linear warriors, quadratic wizards are not an issue with the game being poorly designed and more of a standard tick mark like the sneaky rogue or the healer cleric.
>>47363958
>>47363987
>>47363994
i mean i don't give a shit because I always play a caster of some sort (because why wouldn't you) I just want martial/magic babbys to stop bitching at eachother
same discussion since 1980
Martials need to stop bitching and accept their role as distractions.
>>47354877
>>47364025
Martialfags are the worse honestly.
The problem with Magefags is that most of their arguments boil down to whiteroom theorycrafting that assumes that they'll always have the right tool for the job in every given situation that would call for it.
Martialfags on the other hand will display either ignorance of the rules or will outright ignore the limitations set by the rules with the argument of "it evens the playing field" being their only defense against willfully cheating at the game.
Now, don't get me wrong, martialfags get the bum end of the deal but when their solution is to basically give themselves free reign to do whatever they want just because mages have spells that allow them to bend the rules, that's when it becomes annoying as fuck.
>>47354812
Play Exalted
>>47364086
Why would you ever do that to yourself? You'd be better off sticking with D&D even 3.5
>>47364098
Because, balance issues aside, at least that game has options that allow martial fighters to keep up with mages.
>>47363794
>just make everyone a variant of the wizard
Yeah do that
I don't even play D&D anymore because of the in built Martial/Caster divideEven though it has been reduced with 4th and 5th editionmost characters practically need to multi-class to be viable at high levels or to fit specific character concepts and archetypes
My fantasy games now are run in Mutants and Mastermindsat first they were in 2nd edition then progressed to 3rdpurely because characters are only really differentiated by fluff rather than mechanics
Not saying that's a solution for everyone just one that has worked for me
>>47364098
Because unless someone tries to rocket tag heavily, its not that bad of a system. Plus the setting is great.
>>47363926
Fantasycraft seems to handle this pretty decently.
>>47354812
If we're talking 3.5, the easiest way to do it that I would recommend is giving them some divine casting: make them the religious counterpart to the bard. Provide them with a limited number of spells revolving around buffs and some healing with a couple touch spells for sauce and seasoning but no damage or debuffs otherwise. Take away all the pointless fluff ala still mind, slow fall etc. and you're left with someone that alternates between controlling the battlefield and providing utility to their allies. This means a monk can decide between an unconventional support role or someone who focuses spiritual and physical power to swing their fists like hammers.
It also makes sense in terms of lore, since they're already meant to be "pseudonatural". the only other option I can think of is implimenting ki into more than just letting you punch ghosts, but it just never turns out elegantly. Better to just give a sensible reason for their weak attack power than try to turn them into a martial class.
>>47364185
This.
Mutants and Masterminds is like a condensed GURPS, you can run anything in it. It does Fantasy so much better than anything else.
>>47363926
Dungeons: the Dragoning 40k 7th Edition
>>47354965
Suck in 5e means something totally different from suck in 3.5/PF. It's not optimal, but it's more than playable in 5e without the GM having to make ridiculous concessions just to accommodate him, whereas the 3.5 monk should be banned from every table for being shitty on a near-legendary level.
PF Unchained made monks perfectly playable. Hell, they're the single best martial class that isn't 3rd party.
>>47364691
If it isn't in core then it might not even exist in the eyes of most 3.PF tards.
Either way, I doubt it really helps them that much since Paizo hates monks with a burning passion.
>>47364691
>Hell, they're the single best martial class that isn't 3rd party.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Best pure martial class either goes to Bloodrager, Slayer, or Paladin/Antipaladin. Unchained is a solid improvement, but it still has a ton of pitfalls.
>>47363398
>if you were to have a party filled with meta-gaming powergaming munchkins min maxxed to shit with sorclocks just shooting eldritch hex blast all day then yea a monk couldn't keep up
this, 1000%
>>47364598
I second this.
Martials are actually more powerful than Magic Users, though.
>>47354812
Nerf it back in to the line with others. Or boost casters.
>>47364853
If it uses 40k logic where everytime you cast a spell you risk gibbing yourself then I can see why martials would be better overall.
>>47363398
What level are you currently?
>>47364788
>pure martial
>paladin
>>47363398
>if you play with normal people then it's fine, just like any class
I hate to break it to you, but you're not playing with normal people, you're playing with the mentally retarded. The level you need to be playing at for the monk to do anything but stand out by sheer magnitude of suck is so absurdly low, only the newest of players could be excused for.
Humans naturally learn and adapt as they do things. For example, if you play a fighting game with someone completely new eventually they'll get to the level where they at least know how the controls work. For the monk to be fine, you'd have to be playing with a group that has managed to stay consistently at the level of "confused grandmother who picked up the controller so she could be like the grandkids", which we generally refer to as retards.
>b-but the goal of RPGs isn't being a min-maxing munchkin
You don't even know what minmaxing is. If your definition of minmaxing is a fighter putting points into fighting instead of basket weaving and competitive farting, then do yourself a favor and apologize to your mother for being born defective.
>>47364889
Paladins are the purest martials.
>>47354912
>Same way you fix all Martials give them super-human and supernatural abilities that allow them to compete with Casters
>Of course nobody wants to do that because WEEB and NOT MUH generic western fantasy world #35268
Which fun cause even western fantasy had heros doing pretty "weeb shit" during their fights.
>>47365091
Cu Chulainn is my go to example of Barbarians
A skilled and cunning warrior who turns into a hulking monstrosity unable to tell friend from foe
Let them get a full attack with a move. Monks right now don'y fit their flavour or have any mechanical niche.
>>47358881
>implying it's only one guy who gives the oldest advice on /tg/
>>47356061
Buzzword.
>>47354812
By taking "Mobile" feat.
>>47365637
Cuchulainn was as skilled in magic, curses, and poetry as he was at riding and every class of arms. He's not fitting for D&D classes because his class would be "all of them".
By playing a Swordsage instead.
>>47354965
>How are they fine in 5e?
>They still suck.
Well, you're wrong.
For open hand monks at least, they have battlefield control and damage output that matches with the best of them at level 17.
>>47363926
Anima.
>>47367531
>>47356912
Best answers
>Wizard can make apocalypse rain from the sky
>Monks just fist a whole arm into someone's chest, like a clean hole man
>Technicians come in two setting "murder" and "murder harder"
>Warriors can cut spells asunder or tank through them in ultra heavy armor
>Stealth assassins that occult even their own life and existence
>Mentalists able to give people mental lobotomies and raise armies of lobotomized zombies
>Summoners summoning armies
>Playing cards harder than YGO
>Familiars double team beatdown ala JoJo
>Being universe's best fanboy
>>47364837
>You party must be filled with retards to Monk be useful.
>>47364276
>Because unless someone tries to rocket tag heavily, its not that bad of a system. Plus the setting is great.
The setting is retarded and rocket tag is literally the only way to play the fucking game.
>>47368214
My personal favorites are
>What if Hitler could cast spells, and was even more sadistic?
>Local mountain-sized fox spirit has fire so hot it burns ghosts.
>Elf prince seeks ancient magic-fucking machine to remove humans.
>Entire province is full of nightmares and terror, Inquisition too afraid to attempt DEUS VULT.
>Local rich fuck, seeing world is pretty shit, opens resort, complete with swimsuit competitions. Rumors of mopey visitors disappearing start soon after.>This article has been removed by Imperium agents under the orders of [Redacted], have a pleasant day.
>>47365699
How much of a newfag can you be?
Also, as a side note, go fuck yourself.
>>47370922
>After magic wing death squad christ decides that only way to deal with that is crusade
>Local old style necromancer is mad, mad about new age necromancers building undead instead of raising them
>City accidentally becomes raccoon city, local multinational corporation swears "they didn't do nothing!"
>Local empress is an idiot and accidentally the whole empire
>Ex-emperor has made his shithole of a country into the most advanced and industrious country
>Ancient prophet dragon of the darkness god of puppets is a huge human-aboo>Necronomicon tells multinational corporation and artifact seekers he should totally build an undead messiah
>>47354812
The Tashalatora feat
>>47371888
>"Light" dragon who serves goddess of pleasure and apathy gives those it encounters a single moment of the absolute best sex of their existence, drives them to nihilism because nothing will ever come close to that moment again.
>Corporation specializing in artifacts and undead accidentally a mansion and small town, blame local shapeshifters.>My players have to clean up the mansion, become afraid of undead Psychic Spiders.>Mentalist loses a foot to a three-headed zombie beast.>Players refer to mansion as Hallway Simulator 2016, because I used that actual RE1 Mansion map.
Full base attack bonus, ability to flurry with one handed weapons and polearms, ability to exchange blows for special attacks like trips or feints or perhaps even standard actions in general (yes that's potentially broken with a spellcaster multiclass)
Perhaps allow it fighter feat progression if you're feeling really generous.
>>47364955
But paladins use spells and make use of spells. Lay on Hands and Smite, Protection against Evil/Chaos, shit like that.
>>47364025
The argument seems to stem from the fact that Martial can only just stab things with their weapons while mages get an assortment of spells to use.
What should happen is Martials should improve their damage rolls over time with more than just 1d8+whatever and should get more dice to throw.
>>47372008
>"Light" gods really fucking lord inquisitor, who is totes OK with nuking innocents if they find supernatural shit, instead of cleanly extracting it from the village
>Light god of freedom is totally unrelated to dark god of rng and anarchism, names are just similarities
>Dreams are real. But only nightmares, fuck you.
>Asia accidentally the whole barrier, now they have demons pooring into it whenever someone cast spells
>>47371026
>>47372597
>look mommy, i'm shitposting
>>47372521
But that doesn't help that casters have save or die spells, teleports, flight, sleep, and god only knows how many more spells that allow them to trivialize any encounter that isnt built specifically to counter them
Just increasing martial damage doesnt do anything you need to give them better mobility and utility
>>47372705
That's why they should get magic items.
Shit even if they are supposed to be equal at the same level (A level 20 fighter being the equivalent to Hercules or something) using something that changes the laws of physics and can bend reality to it's will seems like a no-brainer. It's the equivalent to using a knife in a gun fight and complaining about guns.
>>47372705
So compared to the Tier 1 casters, the warrior would still be much less powerful even if they could take every last feat available to that class?
>>47372705
Why not just play anima/exalted/IKRPG/Anythingbutfucking3.5 if you want your fighters to be good?
FIghters are shit is ONLY a fucking problem in 3.5 and maybe 5e.
No, this is not a joke question. I always ask it and it's the same fucking answer
>Abloo abloo! It's too hard!
>Abloo abloo! I dun llik it!
>Abloo abloo! It's not 3.5!
>>47372705
what anime? I know this is made by ninja scroll, vampire hunter d team. Same art style.
>>47372814
Yes, because the bulk of feats a warrior could take assume them to be only as good as an ordinary human at peak physical condition.
Meanwhile, the mage can pop a spell and achieve a similar effect at relatively low cost in terms of resources.
>>47372932
Animatrix:Program.
>>47372980
>Animatrix:Program
ty
>>47372955
>relatively low cost in terms of resources.
That's subjective and depends on the campaign.
>>47354812
Any "inhibition" such as disarming, sundering, intimidating, tripping, or provoking an unsuccessful AOO imposes a nonlethal version of a negative level on the target.
>>47372859
>fighters
>shit in 5e
Whew, lad
>>47373723
Maybe is the codeword anon.
Haven't played but they had the same "Me go face, me full attack. Me useful" gameplay last I heard.
>>47373747
Except they have the most combat options and damage, can self heal and have great saves, and can use whatever weapon is around and specialize in multiple weapons and get way more feats/stay increases.
Combine that with the system relying on magic less and skills more the fighter ends up being incredibly effective.
>>47373918
If you want to know the worst 5e class it's berserker barbarian hands down.
Beastmaster and Wot4E are bad but way overblown compared to berserker - and no ones says berserker sucks.
If you're playing Pathfinder you could try an unchained monk. They got a pretty drastic overhaul and a lot more options/versatility.
>>47373918
Why?
>>47373981
Why?
>>47373747
The Champion fighter is simplistic, but it's specifically designed for babby's first D&D session. But while it's simple, it's still effective.
The Battlemaster is more interesting (though I liked the playtest version of maneuvers more than the saving throw version), since it gives you support and control options. There's also the Eldritch Knight but counting that would be cheating.
They also cleaned up the weapons; a sword-and-board fighter can protect allies from harm, as a sword-and-board fighter should, and isn't totally outclassed by a great weapon fighter.
And if you like you can pick up some feats (since the fighter has the most chances to) that add some more variety. Alternatively, beef up your non-combat ability scores so you're more adept out of combat.
>>47372568
>Due to one jackass human and his FUCK MAGIC machine, there is a chance of certain non-human souls NOT making it into the Soul Washing Machine, and instead getting immediately redeposited in the next human baby born.
>These babies are almost always hunted down by the inquisition(to PURGE or brainwash into DEUS VULT), or some other shadowy organization for new soldiers.
>Up-and-coming pop starlet's voice is angelic, but is secretly a result of her getting surgery done by doctor MEGAFRANKENSTEIN. Also, the King lives.
>There's an entire race made by some old gods who were jealous of humanity. Said old gods apparently didn't know what the fuck iron is, as their otherwise perfect(and Level Mod+3, fuck) creations run the risk of flat-out ceasing to exist if they touch the shit.
>Goddess of perfection's dragon is REALLY handsome, and amazing at whatever he does, but has crippling inferiority complex and OCD.
>>47376887
>Kid wants to be a hero, but is a wimp thankfully MEGARANKESTEIN is there to make him a cyborg! And give him his own mecha! Thus, hiro roams the streets, giving criminals a fistful of garo and posing after each killWhere do you get more info about c'iel and gaira dragons?
>>47364276
>its not that bad of a system.
False
>Plus the setting is great.
True
>>47364179
No it doesn't, the very premise of the game is that now you're really really magic and therefore automatically important.
>>47377206It's less finding info, and more extrapolating off of what each Bery/Shajad favors/doesn't favor, and what kind of personality would be most compatible. Except for Legion. That dude is confirmed humaboo. And Svakistalazar is just bug-fucking psycho.
>>47377351Any confirmed info on them, other than legion?
Also Zemial wins any "buttfucking insane" awards, closely followed by both Abbadon AKA Lucifer mcFittingIssues and Barakiel AKA Fascism meets vanity girl.
Meseguis is coolest shajad, beryls are fine over all except Barakiel and Edamiel, whom both can quickly either become outright comicbook fascism and nihilism spreading psychopaths. Also I wouldn't trust Uriel/Eriol on the basis they're too fucking similar, so there must be something fucky behind the scenes.
>>47368214
>Stealth assassins that occult even their own life and existence
Uh... is "occult" a verb now? What does this mean?
Is this D&D monk power scale accurate?
4e Iron Soul monk > 4e Centered Breath and Desert Wind monks > 4e Eternal Tide and Stone Fist monks > 3.5 monk with unarmed damage size stacking > Path of War monk of the Silver Fist > 13th Age monk > 5e monk > Pathfinder monk unchained >>>>> regular Pathfinder monk > regular 3.5 monk
>>47377688
In the anima spirit, typos are permitido if you're typing in english anon!
>>47377964
I still don't know what that means
>>47377753
No.
In D&D by removing them. They bring with them a lot of baggage that runs against the idea of the system (spells and systems) and requires making something that is by design bad a valid choice (Unarmed and unarmored combat). They're adding so many bandages to such a single class in multiple ways that it's actively weight down the system because they have to use monk as a yardstick against non monks punching and being unarmored.
>>47378045
I meant to say hidden, but I fucked up since english isn't my first language.
>>47377668Aside from two of each of the Gairas and C'iels being MIA, no, not really.
Except for the bit in Those Who Walked about Fin Island being the resting place of a Gaira.I had it wind up being Svalkistalazar. Players had to leg it when he cut loose, and then had to dodge debris when Kirie Klarium(Azrael's pet) showed up to Kaiju Battel him.They've also accidentally befriended Manah Razz, and are going to have a meetup next sesh with Legion, because they found out about Prince Sylvanus' Super Happy Genocide Funtime plans, and señor humaboo is willing to lend them some assistance.In exchange for an autograph of his "Cheops" brand Humanity's Best and Brightest trading cards.
>>47372998
3.5 allows you to have over 30-40 spell slots and there are several spells that give you a safe space to rest until you replenish your spell slots.
A good wizard won't necessarily be at a mark disadvantage.
>>47373981
Beastmaster requires you to spend your action to have your beast attack.
In comparison, the Berserker's greatest flaw is that it makes you take a rank of exhaustion at the cost of being able to make an additional attack, for extra damage, on each turn that the rage is active.
Seriously, read the rules before you shit on them.
>>47377269
So?
You can still be a dude who wields swords the size of a person or punch dudes into another calendar if that's how you want to play your character.
I mean, looking back at any type of epic hero like Hercules or Gilgemesh or the like, you'll always be able to trace their power back to something that's magical or divine in nature.
Hell, even in 3.5, the average martial depends on magic just as much as their mage counterparts through the use of magic items/armors/weapons.
>>47355891
Eat literally all the dicks.
>>47354812
to fix the monk, you remove the casters.
That is literally all you need to do to fix all D&D systems. Remove casting.
>>47368605
2-2.5e. 3e fixes it, although it does make a few other retarded choices.
>>47378064
Why not?
>>47359446
You're a sadistic guy. I don't mind playing martials in 3.5, I'm actually pretty fond of playing fun unusual builds like grappling or sunder builds and whatnot even if they aren't that great, but monks are trash even by martial standards. Like, it's not "you'll never be the star of the show" it's more "you are roughly as effective as the average fighter hireling but get a full share of the loot for some vague reason"
bumping
>>47381759
>Implying you can even play a martial character above level six.
Honestly removing martial characters would do a lot better for a DnD game. But everyone wants to play a dumbass brute, and just roll attack rolls constantly.
>>47381759
As with many retarded ideas to "fix D&D," your idea comes from a lack of understanding on what's truly wrong with the system as a whole.
The problem isn't that magic is overpowered, it's the fact that the system assumes that most problems that you will encounter in D&D expect you to either be optimized as fuck or have access to the right spell to overcome it.
Dealing 50+ damage a swing is peanuts when the enemy you're facing has
>High AC
>High DR
>SoD/SoL spells
Among other things like some creatures being able to grapple with a successful claw attack or deliver a poison with a successful bite attack.
In 5e, I would say either give the monk a bigger pool of Ki, or use the short-rest variant.
Also, Monks should be able to disengage and flurry of blows as a straight bonus action, instead of taxing Ki for those actions.
>>47388885
Also, have their monk fists start off as a d6 instead of a d4.
>>47366656
Barbarian/Fighter/Sorcerer, or perhaps Warlock. Easy. His skill with poetry isn't a matter of character class.
>>47354812
By removing its reproductive organs, of course
>>47354812
>How would you fix monks?
What system?
Because the only systems I've even heard this problem in are D&D3e, Pathfinder, and maybe D&D5e. "Play a better system" might be my first suggestion, mainly because the others would require quite extensive reworking to manage.
