What's more important for an ideal hero, to be merciful, or to be just?
>>47341004
Both.
Finding the balance where he's both.
Mercy is for the harmless. It is the harmful with whom a hero must concern himself.
Justice tempered by mercy. Always offer the bad guy an opportunity to change and make amends, but put the boots to him if he doesn't pull up.
Being merciful to those no one else will when it is just, being just to those who no one else will when... the aphorism isn't symmetrical but you get the idea.
>>47341075
Every time I see this I get happy and sad.
Gygax will forever be irreplaceable.
A hero is most concerned with Courage. Acts of self-sacrifice are marks of courage with compassion, and acts of justice are marks of courage with an insistence on upholding the law, but they are unnecessary. The boy Gavroche in Les Miserables is heroic, and concerned with neither justice nor mercy.
>>47341004
Mercifully just.
>>47342681
When someone says hero, the first person who comes to mind is the kid who got owned while going through dead people's pockets.
>>47341004
Can be merciful without understanding justice.
Letting someone off who doesn't deserve it is being irresponsibly soft.
Punishing someone who doesn't need to be punished is cruel or excessive.
Being merciful is knowing that justice has been fulfilled and no further action needs to be taken.
The person who gives mercy needs to be a good judge of character and have an understanding of circumstances under which there discussion is made. Sometimes time, resources and ability are too strained to give mercy and only the word of the law can be applied. This is not entirely just but necessary in the long run.
However a truly just and capable character will exercise mercy when they can, a negligent one will not.
>>47343677
*Can't* be merciful...
>>47343677
This.
A Just person will by definition also be merciful when mercy is warrented, to do otherwise would be an injustice.
>>47341004
Neither. What makes a hero isn't what they do, it's that they *do* at all. Heroes are the ones who take action and are remembered for those actions.
Being a good person =/= heroic
See: Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh was the biggest bastard in bastardville, but he is nothing short of an absolute hero because of his accomplishments: He killed Humbaba and reclaimed the cedar forests and its resources, he rebuked Ishtar and defied his own gods by slaying the bull of heaven, and he fought a losing battle against death because "Fuck you, I'm not going down without a fight"
If you want to be a good person, ruminate. If you want to be a hero, ACT.
>>47341004
Depends entirely on who you"re asking. This is like asking conservatives or democrats.
>>47341075
The guy who made tomb of horrors really has no business telling other people how the lawful good should behave.
>>47341042
>Implying mercy isn't by definition a deviation of the established rules and tradition
>Implying a strict enforcing of justice is not what both ensures legal certainity and the enforcement of virtue
Do you even Republican Terror, scrub?
>>47347736
His play group specifically requested an unfair meatgrinder.
Pretty sure they all made it through the first time as well because they were paranoid and able to think and not just assume that Tomb of Horrors was designed for anything except killing adventurers.
The problem was mass producing it for whiny baby bitches who cried when their special snowflake died. They probably even demanded that the party all be the same level, and insisted on point-buy.
TL;DR If you have a problem with Tomb of Horrors, than you're missing the entire fucking point and should just play a different game because you aren't its target demographic. You're the Brony of D&D.
>>47341075
I miss you so much, Gary.
Mercy is undeserved. Giving chances and concessions to those who denied others the same right. Justice seeks to right things that were wronged.
There's three types of bad guys in the world - NORPs, slicks, and slobs. NORPS are your normal, ordinary, regular peasants - someone who's currently having the worst day of their life. You let them go, and you'll never see them again. Then you've got the slicks - the real Devils. All you can do for them is put them in the ground and say a prayer for their souls. But the slobs, they're the tricky ones. They do whatever's easiest, and if being a villain is easy, well, they're going to keep doing it over and over again until someone kills them. So with them, that's where you've really gotta balance things out. You've gotta teach them that evil doesn't pay, so they'll go with the easy road of just abiding the law, without making that too hard for them.
Both
>>47341004
By being merciful you can make mistakes, by being just you can't
Justice is the product of good laws being applied properly, mercy is what steps in when the application of good laws would produce harmful results.
Aka, you don't chop off a kid's hands for stealing, even if that is the proper punishment.
>>47352054
>Aka, you don't chop off a kid's hands for stealing, even if that is the proper punishment
yes you fucking do
>>47352075
why do 30-ish percent of posts about morality on tg have a lawful stupid perspective?
>>47352113
because most of us are stupid law-abiding citizens with only minor infractions?
>>47352113
common core educators
Justice is the province of man, mercy is the province of god.
>>47341004
Being a decent person would help for starters.
>>47352075
It's always funny when people act edgy enough to make medieval Christans seem downright liberal and enlighted.
Justice is always the most important of those two. Two things are needed for forgiveness; a contrite heart, and a pound of flesh.
Any crime can be pardoned, so long as the proper steps are taken. Firstly, the person in question must actually be sorry for what they've done. If they're not, or if they rationalize it, blowing off their guilt by wrapping it in circumstance, they haven't completed the first step. The second of course, the "pound of flesh," is more accurately "to make amends." This can be either through actions to fix and better the wrong he's done, or if fixing the situation isn't possible, reciprocal action to demonstrate through deed his sincerity.
Justice and mercy go hand in hand, but their can be no mercy without justice first.
>>47347900
>>47347736
Daily reminder: The ToH was written for convention play, not for your regular group games or ongoing campaigns.
>>47353862
Being fined doesn't mean that your crime has been pardoned, on the contrary, it means that you were found guilty and were sentence to make up for the damage.
Sincerity isn't required as the ritual steps are unchanged either way. In fact, arguments ad sincerity were generally used to draw out quarrels in which either or one side believed that simply appearing in court and going through the rites would not restore whatever balance they had in mind.
>>47350086
Oh hi Mr. A!
>>47352232
Some would say man cannot be trusted to act justly, and that one cannot expect mercy from God.Those people are probably Calvinists.
>>47347653
>Gilgamesh
Anon, we have a word for that:Murderhobo.Villainalso works, but onlyUt-Naptshim (sp?)was a Hero.
Since people are generally unable to agree on what is involved in 'justice' or 'mercy' you would have to tell me whose idea of justice you are talking about.
>>47341004
You can be merciful just by staying home. If mercy is your aim, do nothing at all, and all the criminals you never caught will be spared any kind of cruel punishment.
>>47341075
God damn, the alignment system is dumb.
>>47341004
To be the ideal hero is to be wise enough to know when it's time to show mercy and when it's time to mete out justice.
>>47355004
I know this is bait, but it does highlight something true about the more common kinds of morality: they push people toward making themselves more into non-entities, automata without feelings or needs of their own. If someone is truly selfless, i.e. lacking a sense of self or consciousness and just endlessly doing work desired by others, that is taking traditional morality to its logical conclusion, and yet that is very similar to non-existence. It is "good" from the point of view of everyone else because it is useful and convenient, but it can't be so from the person's own point of view because in consists of destroying that point of view.
>>47355369
>If someone is truly selfless, i.e. lacking a sense of self or consciousness and just endlessly doing work desired by others, that is taking traditional morality to its logical conclusion, and yet that is very similar to non-existence.
Now hold on, if the culture surrounding that person isn't built on everybody exploiting the work of everyone else, that person'll go out surrounded by folks who're deeply grateful to him or her and be remembered for at least two generations as a truly good and selfless human being.
He or she will exist longer and much more vigorously than somebody selfish who lived a singular, independant existance innawoods.
>>47352075
Well done, you've just created a lifelong beggar and thief by cutting off that child's hands. Get him to work off his debt instead. Use your head, man, use your head.
>>47341004
Mercy is a just thing.
>>47355759
Again, conflating "good" and "selfless" makes just compensation impossible. First, if selflessness is a virtue then giving a servant praise or reward will only tempt them to redevelop an ego and make them less nobly sacrificial. Unrewarding sacrifice is more selfless and therefore more good. Second, if they're truly selfless they won't be able to enjoy anything they receive, whether it's material or social.
>>47358154
https://youtu.be/N1P9vN15_vs?t=49m8s
No better way to say it.
justice is just a different way of saying vengeance and is an inherently evil concept
to be truly good is to be merciful when you can and pragmatic when you cannot. but never do anything for "justice"
>>47341004
Ideally speaking mercy and compassion are both aspects of justice.
JUST
Can a character without emotion or empathy still be internally motivated to be a good person?
Well, the thing is that they're not mutually exclusive.
In order to strive for justice, one must also further delve into the truth and not act rashly (ie: "I heard you're bad so I'm gonna kill you now"), and in order to find a just sentence for the guilty one must show a degree of empathy. Take a bandit, for example: He is attacking people on the road, but when confronted explains that he has a wife and children that need food on the table and coin to get it.
Once the player knows all that he/she can, it's his ideals that determine what sort of justice/mercy is deserved, and an ideal hero makes it fit the best they can.
Doesn't matter how merciful and Just you are if you're a weak little girly man.
First and Foremost a Hero must be STRONK.
>>47341004
An ideal hero is a legend living so far in the past, people forgot his fuck ups.
Now,
Meciful hero is the MC of the story, the pure of heart.
Just hero is his rival or straight up anti-hero who disregards mercy for his "just" world. In the end, justice is sometimes cruel. And everyone has their own vision of what's just.
They both complete each other. The MC represents the humanity, the most basic need of being good, believing that there's an inner good in everything.
But he's not ideal. He lacks the will to fight to erase something, to sacrifice his most basic ideals to achieve peace.
The other one has all that It takes to take an appearance of an ideal hero. He fights evil, he makes judgements, he acts.
But he's not ideal. He has to taint himself, take the blow of his own conscience. As the cheering calms down, and rational thinking starts, some realize that this guy a handy thing to have, but perhaps is not the best role model.Together, they fight crime
>>47341075
He's still as wrong and retarded as the first time he posted this drivel back in 2005.
I'll say it once and I'll say it again - you act like this around my table and cite this post, you're out on your ass for good.
>>47347879
But what IS justice?
>>47367871
I don't think olgaf is the best example of justice...
>>47341004
Now, I know this kinda dances around the question, but who is to say that the two are not one and the same? Remember, to be just literally means to be righteous. This means that, whatever you define as righteous is just to do. That means that, if you identify righteousness with benevolence and mercy, to do justice is to show benevolence and mercy. Justice is not a synonym for equality unless you ultimately consider equality righteous.
>>47368076
>>47364720
Not really, in realistic worlds being immoral (while being smart enough to avoid capture by the law) is the fastest ways to reach most goals unless said goals are morally aligned, like saving the world from the bad guys or something.
Just. Look what happened to Julius Ceasar when he was merciful. Forgave his enemies: Brutus, and Cassius. What mercy got him was the leading role in Shaw Shank Redemption.
>>47341004
A hero doesn't need to be merciful or just. He needs to be right.
>>47364720
That depends. Do you consider being motivated on an intellectual level as sufficient? A person may wish to be 'good' according to the values of others, without themselves feeling a deeper, moral compulsion to do so. Perhaps because they regret not being able to feel such a compulsion, and fighting against its absence. Does it make their desire to be good any less true?
What matters is that you're a real human bean, that's what it is to be a real hero.And that you can protect your waifu's smile at all costs.
>>47370220
>all costs
>>47367078
Bet your table is brimming with friends, anon.
>>47370219
Why would an intellectually guided individual place arbitrary restrictions on himself?
>>47370268
The morals were a bit screwy in that show.
>>47370682
Depends.
In case of the full-out 'lacking emotion' option, there exists the possibility of recognizing that following societal notions of morality is beneficial, if only because it makes things much easier in the long term.
In case of 'merely' lacking in empathy, one could still be capable of perceiving themselves negatively - they may not regret criminal/"evil" actions, but in some cases could consider themselves flawed and wish to strive to be above it, in the same way a man without legs could wish to run, if he could.
In both cases, the behaviour would be merely emulation - but the question stated was whether such a character could be motivated to be a good person, without specifying the conditions for being considered a good person. In short, if acting as a good person would act counts for it, then even a character without emotion/empathy certainly can be one, if only in the eyes of others.
And really, aren't such things subjective to begin with?
If you ever intend to work within a society instead of just sitting on a throne made of obsidian all day, evil sucks. You can't even buy lunch without the city guard trying to arrest you because of all those babies you punched or someone you fucked over at some point showing up and trying to get revenge.
>>47341004
Mercy begets justice, once awful solid-gray moral quandary with no ready answer at a time.
>>47370268Literally happened in a game once.
>>47370709
There is literally nothing wrong with those morals.
>>47366281
You know, that's strangely tragic.
He sees his disciples in the ruins, Men who pumped iron and sweated rivers.
He sees weeps for the missing gains.
>>47341004
To have +5 weapon ASAP
A hero shouldn't be represented by just one thing.
A hero is a collection of things; wisdom, mercy, strength, will, perseverance, success, justice.
Mercy is better though.
>>47368076
Honestly, they get it right more often than not. Don't discount Oglaf's intellectual value based on the fact that it is mostly a porn comic.
>>47341004
To be strong, both of body and of spirit.
>>47376474
>Honestly, they get it right more often than not.
I disagree.
>>47341004
Being merciful means letting people off from their richly-deserved punishment. Be just instead.
>>47373504
But the morals in the show were a bit screwy.
