>One leader is killed by one ship
>Declare war and attempt genocide while ignoring all attempts humans make toward diplomacy
Are the minbari the worst aliens ever?
>>47327942
The alpha quadrant Jews are pretty bad
Reminder Londo was a true hero.
>well known for waging wars of total annihilation against your enemies
>president pope gets murdered
>wage war of total annihilation
i don't see hows that not to be expected
How do I run a diplomacy themed game?
What sort of challenges do I give my players? What sort of skills?
>>47327942
Do mentally retarded jesus robots count as aliens?.
>>47328149
Given the twist ending, yes.
>>47328072
You probably wanted to start a thread with this post, but I'll answer you anyway.
For the love of god, trust your players and give them some power from the get go. Even if they are minor lords or something, it'll do. If they don't have the stakes, the chance they just become a bunch of citizens watching as NPCs play their power games is very, very high. Their characters need to matter to the plot, which means a GM who is actively worried about giving his/her players a good time.
We probably would have done the same thing if we were technologically superior.
Misunderstandings lead to massacres all the time when new races meet.
Spanish conquerors didn't pay any attention to south american peoples, just butchered them.
The American colonists didn't exactly pay attention to native Americans, just herded them west, killing a shitload and eventually putting them into one state to use as a buffer for the civil war.
Humans would be just as bad, except they wouldn't stop when they found out their souls were in the enemy
>>47327942
Minbari are the Krogan/Asari of the Babylon 5 universe.
>Be forcibly uplifted, first genetically, then socially by Vorlon Master Race and their alien lackeys from the future.
>Be driven to die in a war for their 'holy' glory
>Never resolve internal racial disputes because Master's imposed religion makes you dependent on perpetual anti-Shadow crusades to release cultural anger, without it tensions flare and millennia of repression comes forward.
Conclusion: Minbari are not worst aliens.
>>47327942
Even Dukhat thought approaching the humans with gun ports open was a big mistake, and with the Minbari active sensors messing up the EA ships, I can understand how things escalated so quickly.
To most of the Minbari, the attack was largely seen as the barbarous act of barely civilized savages murdering their most revered leader. Humans were only worthy of annihilation.
Dukhat was well aware of how crucial the humans would be in the next great war, because of the prophesies of Valen and the Vorlons revealing this to him. Dukhat would have balked at what came after his death.
It was the fact that the Grey council took a vote on what to do immediately after the attack, and Delenn's grief stricken decision swung the council in favor of maximum retaliation.
>>47328275
The Krogan aren't really the victims in the same way the Minbari are. Victims of biology maybe, but not victims of other aliens.
>>47328311
That's why I included the Asari
>>47328311
In that sense, the Krogan are the worst aliens in fiction.
They would have destroyed themselves, but instead got uplifted. Then almost destroyed the galaxy, so they had to be partly genocided. Then they basically started committing racial suicide because they weren't paying attention.
>>47328311
>This is what Salarians really believe
>>47328366
I bet you'll defend the Quarians too.
>>47328235
Well the idea was they'd be diplomats on a space station, dealing with politicians from their own government who are more powerful than them but also minor species who are less powerful than them.
Babylon 5, basically.
>>47328351
Actually from what we know they were getting on just fine after their Nuclear War, with their Tribes surviving well enough.
Then they got Uplifted by Salarians, and got put into a position where their "Rebellion" was inevitable, then they were sterilized. Considering how the Salarians treat warfare, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was planned from the start.
>>47328385
>Defending the Quarians
Don't make me laugh.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about how the Minbari nearly wiped out humanity, but then the number given for how many people they killed is 50000.
>>47328385
The Quarians are the fucking ONE remotely normal alien race that never demonstrably performs a crime and that never physically attacks you. The only race that is better behaved are the monotone weirdos.
>>47328400
Well, just fine is pretty relative but yes.
I think you overestimate the Salarians. I think they were desperate and uplifted the Krogans, so didn't think about the implications of their biology when they tried to treat them like any other race. The Krogans destroyed entire planets, and then they denied them more because they were scrambling to figure out a way to solve the issue so the Krogans rebelled in a pretty reasonable way. The Genophage wasn't supposed to be permanent, Mordin admits this doesn't he? Plus, it kills all but one in a thousand. Which is about what they're pre-uplift chance was to make it to adulthood. They just didn't predict that the Krogans wouldn't take that into account. If it weren't for Wrex realizing the issue, they would have just killed themselves to extinction.
I'm glad we're in agreement about Quarians though. Racist motherfuckers.
>>47328436
The Minbari are shown onscreen as having a discussion about whether they are ready to exterminate the last of mankind (YUP!), whether they are able (YUP!) and whether they should do it (ehhhhh... YUP!).
>>47328464
>Never performs a crime
>Tried to genocide an entire species they made by accident
Yeah sure bud.
>>47328436
wasn't humanity, at the time, mostly confined still to the sol system or retreated there during the war?
it was just fledgling colonies and ships that got wrecked
>>47328392
First step.
Be reasonably certain that none of them have actually seen Babylon 5. Especially if you plan on borrowing any of the major plot points.
Then trust them. Give them tricky situations to handle, and just enough authority to potentially solve the issue.
But also, make sure they have just enough rope to hang themselves with if they manage to fuck it up royally.
They're the ones (hopefully) preventing the next Interstellar War, if they can avoid pissing off enough people that they don't wind up *causing* the next Interstellar War.
>>47328488
I'm 100% sure it wasn't a crime... so glad you agreed with me.
>>47328476
It's not really the 'last of mankind' if you've only killed 50000 people. That's 1/12th of the people who died in the Civil War alone.
>>47328504
Should I have a private discussion with everyone about what their character and species' motives are?
Then sort of let alliances fall into place?
Or should I say "you're this race and they want such and such, now go be friends with him over there"?
>>47328469
Here's the problem, from my perspective, that the Salarians had to be idiots to ignore, or had to have planned for the Rebellions.
They gave Krogan, a species who's population was only kept in check by the incredible dangers of the homeworld, not only the technology to overcome those dangers, but also fucking Garden Worlds, with no dangers to over come.
With their birthrate the population boom was inevitable. With the population boom either Civil War, or Rebellion was, again, inevitable.
So the Salarians had to have been idiots to agree to grant the Krogan Garden Worlds after the Rachni War was over, or they had to have been planning ahead.
I can see uplifting the Krogan in a panic, but what came after? That's stupidity, or planning.
>>47328488
Don't forget killing any of their own kind who protected said species.
>>47328507
See Above.
>>47328511
Uh... I'm talking about the convo where they were making preparations to exterminate mankind. Not where they were primarily discussion what they've *done*, but what they're *about to do*.
>>47328550
I just see no reason to try get rid of the Krogans.
Their keeping a Yahg on Sur'Kesh seems evidence enough of their lack of forward thinking.
>>47328569
To Be Fair, that's the Third Game, which has the worst writing of all three games.
But you have a point, the Salarians might just be idiots.
>>47328550
I'm, 100%, sure, it, wasn't, a, crime.
You can take issue with the Quarian government etc. Fine. Though "things that hurt my feelings" are not actually things that break alien law. Reapers are, probably, not breaking their own laws either.
My point is they're the only race that never joins criminal gangs (on screen) and never attacks you. They deserve props for that.
But again, "hurts your precious feelings" does not equate to breaking the law. Nobody even remotely implied to the Quarians that "Um excuse me you're breaking a space law against toaster genocide, step the fuck back."
>>47328072
It depends on what setting you are using but there is a really nice diplomatic/social example in the age of worms campaign for d&d. The party attends a ball and has to use the city to find clothing, jewelry, information of people who might attend the ball and then at the ball they have to try and not cause a social snafu.
>>47328594
People are bitching about the Quarians solely about the third game, not sure why the Salarians aren't fair game either.
>>47328594
They where more concern about holding the line, than think if they should hold the line.
>>47328511
If I remember correctly the casualties were mentioned to be around 250,000. But that still seems way too low, even if you accept that the Minbari skipped past Earth's colonies, and only took out military targets and a couple outlying outposts before they decided not to turn Earth into glass.
>>47328595
Because the Quarian's lied. It's still a secret that the Geth didn't strike first, and they lost. Plus, the only Geth that interact with the outside galaxy are hostile so it's fair to assume no one bothered to look into it.
Also, Tali starts out making deals with gangsters when you first meet her. I'm sure she'd done equally shady shit. Same thing with the young Quarian on Omega.
>>47328617
Legion in the second game also talks it, and the Geth/the Quarian's are barely touched on in the first game for some reason.
>>47328595
Dude what? Killing your own Citizens for protesting is a crime by any sensible viewpoint.
They don't join gangs because gangs won't take them, they think that a Quarian will steal their stuff and run off.
>>47328617
Legion talked about it in the second game bro. The Quarians started shooting the second a Geth asked "Does this unit have a Soul?"
>>47328640
Oi. I may think the Quarians are the bad guys in this situation, but don't talk shit about mai waifu.
>>47328681
Tali admittedly chose criminals as her larceny target during space gypsy coming of age, but it was still going to be larceny.She's better as Garrus' waifu.
>>47328710
Fair enough
And shut your whore mouth.
>>47328644
>Killing your own Citizens for protesting is a crime by any sensible viewpoint.
We seem to be making little progress. "Crime" doesn't mean "things that hurt your feelings." It doesn't even mean "things that hurt your feelings that aliens do." Reapers are not breaking Reaper law by being dicks.
Here on planet Earth, traitors are put to death if they pose a threat and its practical, and for the majority of human history, they tended to be put to death as well. Any even *remotely* threatening non-human life form is likely to be put to death.
As we're going by ME3 canon + the totally nonbiased viewpoint of Geth in ME2, Space Jesus Himself tells you that for a bazillion years, inorganics uniformly exterminate organics when the galaxy is left to its own devices. So you can't say that the behavior of the Quarian government is out of line by Earth standards, or even unreasonable given galactic president.
Presumably, if I were the Quarian President, and my government really wanted to kill robots, and there was a law against killing robots, I would probably executive order that shit immediately so that it wasn't a crime.
>>47328710
>better as Garrus' waifu
besides biochemistry what do they have in common?
>>47328751
>if I were the Quarian President
The Quarian Military declared Martial Law without imput from the government
Here that's what we call a "coup"
And You're STILL ignoring "Shot down their own citizens for protesting. Protesters aren't a threat, they weren't shooting at the government.
>>47328751
>president.
precedent sorry
>>47328755
What does your character have in common with Tali? Their romance is cute, and it's cool that Bioware has your party members interacting with each other in at least partially meaningful ways.
>>47328751
They steal stuff. So much that they're discriminated against across the whole galaxy for it. Tali tries to rob some criminals in the first game and almost gets killed for it.
Also, no. Inorganics and organics uniformly fight wars with each other. The reasons for those wars are never elaborated upon, but we can assume it's both organics and robots starting shit in equal measure. It didn't even have to be extermination, the Reapers were created because the Leviathan's slaves kept fighting each other and their machines instead of being slaves.
The Geth weren't being threatening, except to the Quarian's ability to have slaves.
>>47327942
I'd do it for Trump
>>47328824
Depending on Origin?
They could have spent their entire life on ships, or is also a thief, Mindoire doesn't have anything that comes to mind though
And that's just off the top of my head.
>>47328792
I don't know what rules they had with regards to protesters.
But anyway, I'll alter my original statement: what I meant to say was that quarians are afaik the only race that joins your party but that never attacks you.
>>47328846
Those things never come up in any of the romance. So, evidently, nothing.
Garrus and Tali are both engineers and both assumed leadership roles at a young age. They've both been through everything that's happened on the Normandy, and they even share similar sense of humor. They're also both pretty outgoing, but are constantly surrounded by humans on the Normandy. That's a bit of a stretch though.
>>47328858
They do, if you tell them to stop genociding the Geth for no reason.
>>47328824
>They steal stuff.
They are accused of stealing stuff, because lol space racism. The sole instance this actually occurs in game is with a group whose corpses you loot anyway.
>>47328869
Shepard is as well depending on class
Garrus is young? I would swear he was around Shepard's age, or at least the Turian equivalent. He was a beat-cop before he met Shepard
Shepard has, obviously.
Shepard does, depending on speech choices
Shepard almost always is
That's a stretch, like you said.
>>47328886
If you fail there, they just destroy the Geth, but there aren't any Quarians who actually initiate combat with you in any of the games.
>>47328914
I always assumed he was 5-8 years younger than Shep, given context and the way he behaves.
>>47328916
Or the Geth just destroy them.
You never fight a Volus either, but they're also well known bastards.
>>47328893
grain of truth to every lie and stereotype, sure some quarians may steal while others don't, the ones that do steal however probably leave a better imprint however.
>>47328532
>Should I have a private discussion with everyone about what their character and species' motives are?
At least tell all the players about the setting, recent galactic history, and maybe a few generalized goals of each species.
More sinister plots, secret motivations, classified knowledge can be given individually to each player, or perhaps to multiple players from the same species or faction.
Remind the players to keep these goals, both the publicly known ones and the hidden ones, in mind when playing their characters.
Suggest certain alliances, but don't force anything.
Remember the old phrase "politics makes strange bedfellows".
Characters with seemingly no good reason to even like each other might be forced by circumstance to work together if it suits some mutual public (or hidden) goal.
>>47328991
That's true, but they're an *unbelievably* less thieving and violent race than salarians, asari, humans, krogans, etc. etc. I think every race that joins you besides them will attack you at some point.
>>47329040
Correct, but that's also just because there's a minute number of Quarians. I think the stated population is supposed to be only like twenty million and limited almost exclusively to the migrant fleet. We have about as much exposure to Quarian's as we do to Elcor in the whole series.
They might be equally thieving and violent, we just only encounter all of three outside the migrant fleet and one of them is being thieving and violent.
When you foster a culture of ruthless violence towards the first sign of hostility while using your willingness and ability to prove your reputation whenever it comes to question, doing anything short of murdering the shit out of whole cultures the moment they step up would invalidate your entire identity.
I mean either you kill some aliens who you don't even like or the whole galaxy calls you out on being a bitch and you lose the whole of who you are just so some other race can wave their dicks all over your dead commander's body.
>>47329102
>Correct, but that's also just because there's a minute number of Quarians.
We don't know if that's the reason why, and I find it unlikely. Surely it would not be a problem or unrealistic to have a single hostile Quarian gang somewhere. We know Krogans are inherently violent, that Salarians tend to view other races as utter garbage, that criminal humans exist, and that a lot of Asari harbor extremely elitist issues.
>>47327942
>star trek has any sensible plot
Kek.
They wanted tolkien-like orc, they made tolkien-like orcs.
So, yeah, minbari are the worst as in the worst written.
>>47329161
How would a Quarian gang get somewhere? Almost the entirety of their tiny species lives in a single group, and they require specialist maintenance for their suits. We encounter two non-migrant fleet Quarians over the whole series, and they are both on Pilgrimage. They just don't live anywhere else.
Another reason you probably rarely encounter them in a hostile way, they're at a much higher risk in a firefight. One or two grazing shots and they're liable to get a horrible infection.
>>47327942
>One heir apparent is killed by like a handful of assassins
>Declare war while ignoring attempts at diplomacy
>All major powers proceed to declare war on each other
>Leaders fighting each other included three cousins
>Ignored diplomacy, familial bonds in their rush to spill each others' blood
>Resulting conflict was deadlier than any preceding war
Are humans the worst species ever?
>>47329218
Four that I remember.
Though you don't talk to one. She's getting hit on by a Turian friend, and not getting it.
>>47329233
There are three Chinese civil wars with higher death tolls.
>>47329233
No, that's the Koala.
Who is too stupid to eat a Eucalyptus Leaf(their food source), if you take the leaf off the branch and put it on a plate.
>>47329275
They, like the panda, are also healthier and more energetic if you feed them things other than their natural food.
>>47329299
But not smarter. Koalas are the dumbest mammal on earth.
>>47329310
That's my point. They're so dumb, they eat shit that is bad for them and can't figure out how to eat anything else.
>>47329321
>They're so dumb, they eat shit that is bad for them and can't figure out how to eat anything else.
Sounds like some humans I know.
>>47328681
Your waifu is shit
>>47329780
Everyone's Waifu is shit, what's your point?
>>47328072
I'd also recomend using a system that actually handles social conflicts and intrigue more than handwaving it. Something like Fate would be a good choice, if you're familiar with it. Burning Wheel is another option, but much harder to learn. That said, Burning Empires or Jihad are versions of it that already have a sci-fi theme.
>>47328511
It wasn't the "last" of mankind, it was the "rest" of mankind.
Their modus operandi was wiping out all military forces, then the next step was wiping out all civilians.
>>47327942
>Are the minbari the worst aliens ever?
They have more nuance, respectability, and realism than any Star Wars or Star Trek alien. It's not a high bar, but it's something.
>>47328149
>retarded jesus robots
I'm so glad someone else thinks so. I hear so much praise for that show.
>>47327942
dunno, sounds like they would fit into wh40k pretty easily
>>47328027
did he poisoned your drink to say that?
>>47329299
Source? I find it hard to believe.
>>47328149
What show is this ?
>>47327942
Minbari are fuckin fanatic space jihadis. Even worse, they're only so advanced and capable because of the technology /handed to them/ by the Vorlons. JMS himself stated that had Earthforce been able to detect Mindari ships at range, then the bastards would have had a hell of a fight on their hands. Earth still would have eventually lost, but the myth of Minbari invincibility and superiority would have been destroyed.
Another fun fact: according to JMS, the entire Minbari "military" was built ground up by the Vorlons for the sole purpose of utterly facefucking the humans at that particular time. And even then, their tactics were moribund, their logistics laughable, and their ships all one-trick wonders, When they go toe-to-toe with the Shadows, they get wrecked with absolute impunity.
>>47331542
there was one human who won a battle against mimbaris. Although he set a trap with nukes but still, he won
>>47331542
>the entire Minbari "military" was built ground up by the Vorlons for the sole purpose of utterly facefucking the humans at that particular time
For what reason?
>When they go toe-to-toe with the Shadows, they get wrecked with absolute impunity.
Just as everybody else, even with telepaths.
>>47331542
>they're only so advanced and capable because of the technology /handed to them/ by the Vorlons
>built ground up by the Vorlons for the sole purpose of utterly facefucking the humans
>>47328027
What the fuck is he trying to convey with that expression and pose?
>>47331527
It'sEarth was Cylons all along, and they came to the 12 Colonies and made the toaster Cylons human bodies, only this was all because of God trying to redo humanity a third/fourth time after they made robots and got killed by their robots the last couple of timesBattlestar Galactic.
>>47331676
I think it's "I will make the Centauri Republic great again!"
>>47328824
>Tali tries to rob some criminals in the first game and almost gets killed for it.
U fekkin wot mate?
Did you perhaps mean:
> Was trying to make a deal with an information broker, got backstabbed by an asshole and almost killed?
>>47327942
But it's the humans who made them that way.
>>47327942
>Religious fanatics
>Known for being reasonable
Yeah, you should totally go to the middle-east and talk to ISIS with diplomacy. I wish you good luck, OP.
>>47327942
>>47328034
And lets not forget:
>The Space Jesus of their alien faith is actually a human with a time-traveling space station
>>47332778
>mfw one of my country's party leaders wants to actually do this
>>47331203
The show had a lot of really good qualities, but it was completely destroyed by its flaws. The grittiness was great, and there was some great acting (particularly by the older cast members), but the cylons were retarded, characterization was thrown under the bus in favor of crazy plot twists, and the story meandered to such an extent that it was patently obvious that the writers were making everything up as they went along.
>>47327942
>one archduke is killed by random person
>start WWI
>>47327982
You take that back. Ferengi are my favorite race.
>>47327942
There is reason why I like to call them straman elves. Warriors are worst of them.
>>47328149
Number 1 is calling shots and he suffer from reverse Pinocio syndrome, he was to human and want tobe more machine. He (they) manipulate rest of Cylons for control and push then toward hate of humanity and "parents".
>>47328027
You spelled G'kar wrong.
>>47331676
he was surprisingly sarcastic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJxXwmhFcok
Daily reminder that the Centauri male has six prehensile tentacle-like penises that Londo used to cheat at poker.
>>47332778
What would you even negotiate with them about?
They want the entire planet to convert to their particular brand of Islam or die with exactly zero room for compromise. Their stated goal is literally world domination.
>>47332798
What you don't like time traveling space stations?
>>47332960
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeNBJ5o-b7s
Best Londo coming through.
The War. The humans, I think, knew they were doomed.
Where another race would surrender to despair, the humans fought back with greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. In my life, I have never seen anything like it; They would weep, they would pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones, and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself, never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage.
Their stubborn nobility.
When they ran out of ships, they used guns, when they ran out guns they used knives and sticks and bare hands. They were magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes in the end.
They did this for two years they never ran out of courage but in the end, they ran out of time.
>>47327982
Yes for TNG
No in DS9
>>47327942
>strike from a position of total superiority
>bring a potential rival to the brink of extinction just to show you can, only losing a single ship in the process
Are the minbari the best aliens ever?
>>47331662
>For what reason
>>47331669
>>47328149
The mentally retarded Jesus robots were cool before it became "literally everyone is secretly a mentally retarded Jesus robot, also they're Jesus."
>>47328594
They only live 30 years or so, i thought the implication was they just aren't that into thinking things through in the long term.
>>47333327
pretty much its why the Asari
Salarian council worked pretty well, they played off each others strengths and covered their weaknesses
>>47327942
No, but they certainly hada bone to pick.
>>47327942
Some brown people knock over some towers in New York. America decides to go on a rampage and bomb civilian targets with brown people. Not even in the right country.
>>47328436
JMS clarified that later. Basically, the minbari strategy was to wipe out the human space infrastructure, then genocide for earth, then work your way back out wiping out colonies one by one.
The Battle of the Line would have left humanity naked and defenseless against the Minbari mopping up operation.
>>47327942
What make B5 brilliant isn't that its plot arc is very good. It's that they did it at all in that era, amd that it actually worked.
>>47333803
Isn't explanation more simple - they target warrior caste first, later rest.
Like if they could be just satisfied with wiping out military (who can be blamed for that incident). No need to secrecy and surrender.
>>47328488
That's what happens when appliances and tools start achieving sentience/sapience. Are you telling me that humans wouldn't try to delete an AI that evolved so much that it was no longer under their control? The fear that the working AI will realize that they're doing all the work, and will rebel is an all too real one.
It's a monstrous act, but understandable.
>>47329338
Thus we come full circle
>>47328253
>Spanish conquerors didn't pay any attention to south american peoples, just butchered them.
No, actually, they had royal rules of engagement, made alliances, and tried to negotiate, but for 50 years they were met with all out attacks when trying to disembark, until Cortes came along, and burned his boats to make his men fight to death
(The above is kinda true about Hispaniola though, Columbus was an utter cunt to the natives there, but he was a fucking Italian.)
>>47332891
I really do like the show, but from what I heard the writing tanked in the last chunk of the show because of the writer's strike, I think it was. They had to bring in an entirely new team to finish off the show.
That's how we end up with EVERYONE'S A CYLON AND THIS MUSIC IS MAGICAL.
That said, the space combat was top tier - watching the Pegasus/Galactica fights were orgasmic.
>>47328253
>Spanish conquerors didn't pay any attention to south american peoples, just butchered them.
The heck, the Spanish conquerors intermarried with the local noble families, respected they allies cities,traditions or leaders as far as they converted to catholicism and swore fealty to the crown (like the Tlaxcalans), and the central gov issued laws to protect the people from the excess of the Conquistadors thanks to Las Casas, heck they used native american system when they suited them.
>>47328027
>The hero Babylon 5 deserves
>>47334331
G'Kar and Londo are one of my prefered comedy duo.
>>47334374
>Morden holds up the datacrystal with his thumb and middle finger
That was an amazing scene.
>>47334413
The episode where they're stuck in an elevator together was fucking magical. I still can't help but laugh every time I see it.
https://youtu.be/ibEaLmGz3WI
>>47327942
>le Franz Ferdinand face.jpg
>borrow B5 from library
>half the disks are scratched to hell
Anyone know a good place to get it?
>>47331691
Wow, I can't believe that if it's true. Was it as retarded as it sounds?
>>47334744
It was even more retarded.
It had achieved fractal retardation. At no scale of resolution was any facet of it any less retarded than the whole of it.
You know Lost with it'sIt was all a dreamending? It was stupider and more disappointing than that.
I'll let that sink in for a moment.
Now consider that this shit seemed to go on forever but Firefly got one season. Justice is dead.
>>47327942
JMS isn't very good at coming up with names. The Minbari ambassador had a crony named Linnier and the Centauri ambassador had a crony named Vir. You can't just have everything rhyme; it's annoying.
>>47334546
maybe I should watch that show
>>47331691
>the 12 Colonies
>God trying to redo humanity
I'm going to make a logical jump here - is this "12 tribes of Israel" v2.0?
>>47334778
The first season is a bit silly, and it'll probably take you a while to get used to the dated CG, but I definitely think it's worthwhile. Has some of the best dialogue and monologues of any show I've watched.
>>47334744
To be fair, the first two, two and a half seasons were pretty damn good, but the whole thing went downhill after that.
>>47334829
Hey, I'll give it a shot.
I'm all up for outdated CG. It's the weird hair that gets me.
>>47334770
>>47334841
Jesus, an even worse ending than Lost? That's impressive. Glad I only watched the first few seasons then.
>>47334721
Long time ago, it was on Hulu. No idea now.
>>47334721
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=babylon+5+torrent
>>47331669
so, in a sense, the Shadows were the good guys?
>>47335268
Nah. The Shadows and Vorlons were both fucking kids kicking sand at each other in the playground, and all the other Ancients were angsty loner teenagers.
>>47334813Within universe, it's technically 12 Tribes of Israel: The prequel
>>47331676
IIRC, it was something along the lines of "we Centauri take hours for sexing, unlike you plebian Narn shits. Our gonads..."
>>47335315
This. They had grown so old and stubborn that they refused to see that the younger races didn't need their help anymore, and that in fact their "help" was doing more harm than good.
>>47335440
Don't forget the tentacles. Centauri have tentacle sex.
>mfw Londo uses one of his tentacle dicks to cheat at cards
>>47335268
They were CN, and Vorlons LN
>>47328230
I gave up during season 3, what happens?
>>47335532
Totally forgot about Londo using the tentacle dicks to cheat.
>>47334854
I just rewatched the series this last month. Worth it. You will need some movies for season 5 because of some unresolved shit you will notice, but I can't remember which, maybe some other anon will tell you
>>47335566
>Several characters revealed as cylons
>Find Earth, turns out that they had a nuclear war of their own with their own cylons in a previous cycle (because this happens over and over again)
>Find habitable planet by mistake
>Decide to colonize it, call it Earth, fly all the spaceships and technology more advanced than a knife into the sun
>Baltars hallucinations revealed to be visions from god
>Planet revealed to be our earth in the distant past
>>47335566Bob Dylan (who's probably an angel) activates the super-Cylons hidden in the fleet, most of them stay bros with humans
Starbuck dies in a crash landing but is sent by God as an angel to guide the survivors to Earth 2
Humans and bro cylons kill the bad cylons
Earth 2 is actually the real world Earth (when asked why the constellation in the Temple of Athena pointing to the "original" Earth-1 are identical to those seen on the real world Earth, the scientific advisor for the show replied "yes, we fucked up, the ending makes absolutely no sense")
The surviving humans and cylons dump their fleet into the Sun, leave all their advanced tech behind and start living with primitive Africans
In the final scene, thousands of years later, we see imaginary Baltar with imaginary sexbomb cylon sipping coffee in Manhattan, commenting on how every Human alive is a Hyman-cylon hybrid, descended from the little kid Hera. But these two weren't delusions after all, they were actually angels. Cue a montage of real life robots being developed in Japan and shit - because "All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again"
Also at some point Baltar did some preaching and shit but that's hardly important except for the religious imagery
>>47335755
>>47335841
Thanks.
>Londo gets mad over a toy not showing his masculinity
>Londo vs a cockroach
Best character.
>>47335905
>Londo vs a cockroach
https://youtu.be/zdmzGPAsDqM
Wish I could find more clips of his dialogue during that episode, his ramblings about the bugs were fantastic.
>>47335905
Unexpected buttmad messiah G'kar was fun too
>>47333150
Which is funny because HOOMANS are very involved in saving the fucking galaxy.
>>47335841
FUCK YOU FOR REMINDING ME YOU SHIT
>>47333150
where the fuck do you even watch that movie nowadays
I wantt o watch babylon 5 stuff, but I can't even get a collection going on.
>>47335315
>The Shadows and Vorlons were both fucking kids kicking sand at each other in the playground, and all the other Ancients were angsty loner teenagers.
weren't the Shadows the second sentient race in the galaxy and the Vorlons were the last of the First Ones?
the Shadows were mad jelly that the Vorlons had psychic powers and had more influence over the lesser races
>>47335841
I am glad it did actually have an ending, and in some small way that it was this memorable. Because not having an ending would be really annoying in it's own way.
And what it did end on is a giant fucking dumpster fire of a beacon of how to NOT end a sci-fi story.
It's like the Star Wars prequels: a bloody great big example of what to not do, that has stood the test of time as a colossal fuck up that retroactively harms the good stuff that came before.
>>47336113
Torrents are probably going to be your best bet, unless you decide to buy the seasons from places like Amazon.
>>47336167
Me and my buddies call it the Golgafrincham end.
>>47336176
Yeah there's a well seeded torrent with all five seasons, movies and Crusade. Also it's a good idea to watch Crusade in chronological order, not broadcast order because the show's production was a mess.
>>47335841
Let me say that I actually thought that the ending actually had some good points, at least relative to the quality of the show, overall. It at least had some emotional impact even if elements of it were pants on head retarded.
>>47335566
I made myself watch the whole thing so no fucker could try to tell me it all came together at the end when I complained about how bad it was (several people did, in fact, try to tell me that, so my efforts paid off, though I'm not sure it was worth it). Towards the end, I was basically just running it in the background while I surfed the internet. I remember something enormous went down at the end of one episodethe cylons started a civil war and started killing each otherand I had so little interest that I didn't watch another episode for a couple of weeks.
>>47335905
>>47335945
>Londo vs a cockroach
I always found that scene, lot a lot of the humorous ones in B5, to be a bit cringy.
>>47327942
Well, they're from Babylon 5, which is a good bet that they're the worst, yes.
>>47336851
Damnit /tg/, now I want to see more of the Bab5-verse again.
Already have watched season 1-5, what should I go for next?
>>47335841
It's very, very sad that this is pretty much accurate. How a show with such competent production values can have such shit writing is beyond me.
>>47336159
No. Their influence was equal. Vorlons made rules and genetically engineered races and issued dictates. The Shadows triggered wars and sowed chaos. BUT their philosophy was about getting people into conflict so they can solve their own problems, their own way. And grow stronger as a result. The vorlons held your hand and walked you down the path. The shadows didn't care which path you took, but they'd give you a good scare, a good chase, and a kick in the ass to push you down your path faster. They were happy to play the bad guys as a result.
>>47329233
Austria-Hungary was totally justified in going to war with Serbia though. Most European leaders even thought so at the time.
>Franz Josef I (the emperor) was in his mid 80's, could die at any moment.
>Franz Ferdinand was the sole heir to the throne. His death = no more Austria-Hungary.
>Assassin Group (The Black Hand) had hundreds of members holding Serbian military and government positions.
>Apis, Head of Black Hand and leader of plot to kill Franz was the main security adviser to the Serbian military.
>Serbian Prime Minister actually knew of Assassination plan ahead of time. Did nothing.
>Austria gives list of 17 conditions to Serbia to prevent war. All are pretty reasonable. Final condition is that Serbia lets an independent group investigate the assassination.
And Serbia says NO. Because the government realized that an investigation would prove they were guilty.
So That is how WWI gets kicked off. Because Serbia couldn't stop shitting the bed. The more you read about the events leading up to WWI the more apparent it becomes that Serbia had been pulling dumb shit like this in the Balkans for years.
There's obviously a bit more to the story, just don't want to write a lot.
>>47333150
>>47336037
It's weird, because before the Minbari-Earth war, Earth helped the Galaxy fight some assholes that later show up to plague bomb the fuck out of Earth.
>>47329233
This. The reaction is a natural one.
>>47331203
Nah, you're just a salty person with bad taste.
>>47337477
I think that's what they were saying.
>>47338585
I took it as him saying "Austria-Hungary is the completely unreasonable (Alien in this scenario) for declaring war with no attempts at diplomacy because a small group of assassins killed one of their guys."
its just not entirely accurate.
A better example would be the Trojan war.
>Prince "Kidnaps" a princess.
>Decade of slaughter and the destruction of all of Troy follows.
>>47337317
Because faggots kept rewarding Lost with good ratings long beyond the point where it was obvious they were just making up bullshit non stop.
They now know people will keep eating the shit, the Deeper the better ... if it all falls down at the end the money is already in.
>>47338797
I see it as more of a "look, not so unbelievable after all" sort of post.
>>47335841
I never understand quite what people are so mad about regarding nBSG. Not trying to troll, I just wish I could overcome my limitation and see what you all see.
>>47339085
Maybe the bullshit fairy magic and Disney "love will save the day". Might have been reasonable if it was explained in show, but never was.
>>47339449
Since when has good writing been about patting everything down to a clearly explained phenomenon? I honestly think that a lot of the butthurt comes from different aspects of the show being drawn from across genre lines, resulting in a "I like A, but can't stand the applications of B conventions and justifications".
I get that such cross-genre logic can end up disjointed and objectively bad, and that there was a clear drop in quality/tightness in the writing as things unraveled towards the end, but I just don't get the "lol it's unmitigated shit as a whole, despite some bright spots".
>>47336339
Crusade, like Farscape truly is the best example of D&D in space.
>>47339085
Progressively worse writing. I've got no problem mixing magic with scifi though.
>>47339971
See, I've never had a problem agreeing with the idea that the writing got a little shaky in some ways, just that it wasn't apocalypic to the value of the show.
Additionally, when asked exactly what made the writing THAT much worse, they usually bring up personal dislikes like religion, loose ends, and happy endings.
I guess I feel like it's a good show where there were some writing missteps towards the end, but the ending was still really good, and a lot of fun. People usually act like they want to strangle me for this.
>>47331662
Because the Vorlons are gigantic assholes.
>>47340112
Cool ship though. Also the all organic ships was kind of cool. Usually it's all crystals and bullshit.
>>47337079
Did you watch In The Beginning? If not, go for that as it's pretty fucking good.
>>47340063
Religion isn't inherently a problem in science fiction. It very much was a problem is BSG because it was used to justify the countless deus ex machinas and other asspulls that became more and more common as the show went on.
And what happy ending? Nothing about that ending was happy.
>>47339085
The plot was directionless and meandering. The cylons were mentally deficient, their society didn't make any sense, they wouldn't shut up about the one true god, and they were lame bad guys (at least with the original Ballestar, you could instinctively understand how the mechanical cylons and organic humans couldn't coexist). Characters randomly did stupid shit in order to enable a shocking plot twist. Surely that's enough.
>>47340063
I actually like the sadness of the ending, though Baltar, Six and Starbuck being literal angels was pants on head territory.
I will say that why my close circle of friends all thought that BSG failed miserably, almost everybody else I talk to (including my wider circle of friends) seem to think it was really good. I've definitely felt like I was in the minority.
>>47340965
>>47341056
Probably the most frustrating thing about seeing this discussion come up again and again is that to get a wrap on it from either position, you have to drill down to topics which, taken together, are beyond the scope of a single thread.
>>47327942
Only if they lost.
>>47341137
Are you really complaining about an alien society not making sense to you, a human? Did you consider that humans are regularly unable to see a rhyme or reason in another human's actions and dismiss them as random and stupid?
I know these things aren't absolutes and there is such a thing as being shit, but I just don't see it.
>>47340965
>>47341137
>Religion isn't inherently a problem in science fiction
I agree, and I guess I forgot the quotation marks around "happy".
>literal angels
So they're called angels. So what? This kind of thing was touched on in another thread about atheism in fantasy settings with "observable gods".
You can't observe "divinity". You can say "if subject A exhibits X, Y, and Z then we call them divine"; but someone can verify X, Y, and Z and then still say "that doesn't make them divine, it just means X, Y, and Z".
So what upsets people about Baltar, Six, and SB being "angels"? Being able to converse millennia after their physical bodies are destroyed? The supposedly cyclical nature of the in-show universe? None of these are unacceptable in sci-fi terms.
So that's why I end up thinking that people's dissatisfaction with the show's development are less about execution, and more about ruffled feathers regarding the aesthetic.
>>47341296
Eh, a lot of it just falls under the fact that for any show there is some part of the population that is really pissed about how it ended.
The objective failings of the show (that you seem to agree exist to some degree) give those people a reason to get really angry and vocal about it.
I know that when I think a show's ending just "wasn't right" but mostly people are happy and the show is still considered a legitimate good show I won't complain about it to much. Or if I do I will go about it a certain way.
But if the show actually had some problems, and people are dumping on it left and right? I will fucking pump that shit full of all my bile and resentment, because dogpiling is fun.New BSG was still a piece of shit.
>>47328595
Quarians are space gypsy racial supremacists. That's why they don't join gangs.
>>47341296
>Are you really complaining about an alien society not making sense to you, a human?
But this isn't a real alien society that is so bizarre that I can't understand it. This is human writers half-assing things and not constructing a believable society. And really, it shouldn't be up to the viewer to try to resolve apparently problems in the setting. It's an example of bad storytelling when that's the case.
>So they're called angels. So what?
They were inelegant: shoehorned in and unnecessary. Deus ex machina is bad enough in mythological settings where the gods are woven into the very fabric of the world, and where magic is common place. Even there, it undermines the agency of the characters you're following. But here, it's incredibly out of place. If they wanted to make a show about that sort of thing, they needed to do a much better job of integrating them into the reality. As it is, it's like you're watching a good World War II war movie and at the very end, suddenly, wizards!
>So that's why I end up thinking that people's dissatisfaction with the show's development are less about execution, and more about ruffled feathers regarding the aesthetic.
Aesthetic certainly has something to do with it, but that's not the entirety of it. The meandering make-it-up-as-we-go-along plot and the sacrifice of characterization in favor of plot twists,are issues of flawed execution more than concept.
>>47341674
There are no real alien societies. We're back to you saying "this is stupid because I can't understand it". Hell, their society made sense to everyone I watched the show with (about 30 or 40 people). It's not really a matter of resolving it for the show, but that some people seem to be missing the pieces required to make the society rational at first glance; that kind of issue is a personal one, really. I mean, I'm even willing to say the show missed being accessible to as wide a base as it could have, but I don't feel like that's a sin - though I suppose I might feel differently if I was one of the excluded ones.
>They were inelegant: shoehorned in and unnecessary.
You're going to have to back this up and not just assert it, or anything I say is just going to be "nuh-uh!" Goalposts make for civilized discussion and all that.
I'd like to say also that deus ex machina isn't just the existence of gods or the divine; and not everything has to be woven in from episode 1. Part of what made nBSG interesting for me is that turn on the river, where it isn't constrained any longer by the bounds of the genre that could be predicted right off the bat. The turn happened more like partway in, which makes your "at the very end, wizards!" a not that great example.
>Aesthetic certainly has something to do with it, but that's not the entirety of it.
I'll agree with this statement. LOST was a shitpile of make-cool-sounding-shit-up-as-we-go-along that we should all learn from, but I don't think that this show was very much like that.
I actually really appreciated the "sudden and unexpected deviations from character" as sort of indicative of the transformative nature of faith (completely separate to whether or not the object of that faith is real, which in the show's case it presumably was).
>>47335905
THERE ARE MORE OF YOU!
Season 1 of B5 was really fun, though seasons 2 and 3 had a good story. Season four had too much going on at once and messed things up, season 5 shouldn't have been made
>>47342007
Literally none of the religious shit in BSG was interesting or added anything to the show. The only time it was ever featured prominently was when they were using it to force the show forward because they couldn't plot a natural course from point A to point B. So instead, they just drop random revelations and angels with all the answers out of fucking nowhere to "solve" the problem of the show struggling to move forward.
Ask anyone what the liked about the show. It sure as shit won't be the angels and religious overtones. It'll be the grittier take on the science fiction genre, the last remnants of humanity struggling to stay alive and the problems they face during their space exodus, etc.
That's why people watched the show. And that's why as the show went on, and the religious bullshit started to feature more heavily as they continuously failed to actually plot their story out in advance, people started to get more and more sick of it.
>>47328351
The Krogans nuked themselves back to the stone age multiple times before their uplift, their attitude about it was "each of those civilizations were imperfect and we're going to keep trying until we make a perfect one, and every failure will end in nuclear war and near-extinction that we'll come back from again because we always do."
>>47334413
Yeah. Babylon 5 may have been good but kind of uneven, but the Londo And G'kar Show was sufficiently solid gold to drag the series to greatness.
>>47342302
Your world shouldn't be so small, anon. You're just asserting things, not even arguing them. Saying shit like "ask anyone" just means you've been living in an echo chamber.
>>47342493
No, this is the general consensus. If you haven't realized this, then you are living in an echo chamber.
>>47342577
This whole discussion is based on the fact that this is the general consensus. Do try to keep up.
>>47331542
Didn't the Minbari help the Vorlons in the previous war with the Shadows? Surely they would have kept whatever military structure they had from back then more or less intact.
And vs the Shadows iirc that was because they somehow managed to forget that telepaths wreck Shadow vessels, and once they were reminded of that they were relatively effective (given that the Shadows had a gazillion year head start on them).
>>47342638
The discussion was about whether the religious content in BSG added or detracted from the show. You decided to ignore the arguments regarding that and instead suggested that I was living in an echo chamber because I acknowledged the general consensus regarding what the show did right. That's what I responded to. If you didn't want to talk about that you shouldn't have brought it up.
Are you following this alright?
>>47337718
You're confusing the Drakh (Shadow minions, virus bombed Earth) and the Dilgar (vaguely-defined space Nazis, had their population dropped to 1 before the show started).
>>47342845
>You
Nope, sorry to ruin your outrage boner. The entire discussion started with the admission that the consensus was that it detracted from the show. Hinting that the other person "hadn't realized" this is a pretty big indicator of your own ignorance, not to mention petty.
>>47343010
What the fuck are you talking about? No one is outraged. The original post this conversation grew out of was this one:
>>47339085
Where the poster explicitly states that they don't understand why other people are upset with the way BSG handled certain parts of the show. Pointing out why people watched the show and what parts they enjoyed is directly relevant to that post.
Now do you want to actually have this conversation or are you going to continue ignoring actual arguments in favor of bitching about tone?
>>47342317
I found their positive attitudes endearing, honestly.
>>47343102
Whatever, I was just calling you out and even if I was the other guy you're being a bitch about this. So I guess I'm going to go and cry to my diary about your "tone" lol.
>>47343213
Again, what the fuck are you talking about? The guy literally ended his post with a condescending, "Do try to keep up," and you're upset that I responded in kind. Jesus fucking christ, you'd think people would have a little thicker skin on 4chan of all fucking places.
>>47342728
>Surely they would have kept whatever military structure they had from back then more or less intact.
Cultural drift. The last Shadow War was a millennium ago, and is somewhere between mythology and our understanding of the history of the Americas circa 1000 AD. Warriors are their own caste, with very little outbreeding and crossover. The Minbari had to relearn everything they'd lost in the long intervening peace.
Also, Vorlons are dicks and very well may have de-weaponized them at the end of the war so as not to make waves.
>>47335268
The Vorlons and Shadows were not good vs bad, but more like order vs chaos. They both want to create a strong healthy universe. The Vorlons believed they could achieve it by helping everybody, including propping up the weak and so everyone gets stronger. The Shadows believe in survival of the fittest, so let the weaklings die off, and you wind up with superior races.
>There is a hole in your mind
Man who would have known this would hit pretty close to home for Michael O'Hare.
>>47331441
This is a healthy koala brain. Notice anything wrong with it? Literally every single mammal, from the smallest shrew to the blue whale, and of course, man has it.Their brains lack sulci and gyri: The wrinkles in the brain. Most large lizards and snakes have more than a koala. They have no self referential perception, no problem solving, and can't even recognize a eucalyptus leaf as food, unless it is on a branch.
>>47339085
A sense of betrayal. Early episodes which were very close to the metaplot from the original series were so damn good that people had very high expectations for the show. People weren't used to seeing production values (special effects, casting, scripting, directing) that are so good and "authorship" stuff (the plot arc, foreshadowing, etc) that are so shitty.
A more explicit betrayal was this. The show kept leading you on with this mystery of what the cylons were up to. The credits would roll every episode with "... and they have a plan."
Ok so what was the plan? The truth is, the writers had no idea what the plan was. They strung us along with plot twists and setting up cool scenes, but there was no big picture about what the show was about or where it was going. THey were just trying to keep ratings up and string us along. But they were making VERY big promises, on and off camera, about how carefully planned and plotted the show was.
As with Lost, people got hooked on the show because they were told "stick around, this gets good". Then when the end is disappointing, they're told, "well, the fun is the ride, right? We never said it was going anywhere." When, of course, that's exactly what they did.
Basically, nBSG was everything that B5 was not, and B5 was everything that nBSG was not. The reason you see so much love for B5 and hate for nBSG is that JMS was upfront about what he was doing and honest about where he screwed up. Ron Moore lied for ratings and was and is utterly shameless about it.
>>47346294
Thank you, that was a very clear expression of your thoughts.
>>47338908
Totally true. But then you get shows like Breaking Bad where they actually deliver.
I like to think that shows like the X-files get a pass because when the show came out, being serialized like that wasn't the norm. So they were blindsided by the internet and serialization and the fact that the audience really did care (and could re-watch and binge watch and catch stuff a traditional broadcast audience would miss). Standards had risen, in part BECAUSE of X-files.
BSG and Lost came in an era when, like you say, the audience wanted "novels on TV", and the producers knew it. So they could promise it (lying) and people were so hungry for it that they fell for it.
It's still happening a lot. But increasingly you have showrunners who really do try to make it work. Gradually, the fraudsters will get driven out. I know when I see Ron Moore's name on a show, I walk away. If it's really that good, I can always binge-watch and catch up in season 3. He's burned me too many times.
What makes B5 and JMS special is that it promised this kind of show, AND delivered it AND did it at a time when the audience didn't know they wanted it and the industry was actively hostile to the idea of trying.
>>47341296
The issue is that all those justifications you're throwing out are after-the-fact excuses for stuff they used to write their way out of the box they'd written their way into.
If suddenly in teh finale, Baltar had woken up on Caprica and everything was fine, and then just looked at the camera and said, "whew, it was all just a dream", then YES it would be internally consistent but NO it would suck as a work of fiction.
BSG wasn't making a Very Important Point About Religion. It was hauling in religion to fix a series of plot holes they'd inflicted on themselves and to attach after-the-fact meaning to what was a really just a meandering what-seems-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time approach to writing.
>>47344632
For those of you who don't know, O'Hare, the guy who played Commander Sinclair, was diagnosed with schizophrenia at some point just before or during the 1st season of Babylon 5.
Babylon 5 had a few problems with real life and network interfering with the production making the fact that it got made as well as it was that much more impressive.
>>47334273
if you were right in any way shape or form, the nahuatl speakers wouldn't be reduced to a population of thousands in a few isolated communities, the comanches would still be in Nuevo Leone, and Bartolome de las Casas wouldnt be a historical figure. however, you ate utterly fucking wrong, so whatever.
>>47346476
That was only revealed after OHare died a few years ago. For 20 years, the reason why OHare left the show was kind of a mystery, with the general consensus being that JMS didn't like how his performance was working out.
O'Hare had approached JMS privately to explain the problem, asked to leave the show, and then asked him to keep it a secret until he died. Which JMS did, even though he took some heat from people who felt it was bad writing and/or a bad decision. (I will say most people were happy with the Boxleiter change).
Class act.
>>47346446
I dunno, I guess maybe I don't see the need for contrived, Very Important Points about everything. To me it just lampshades it as a work of fiction.
A "lifelike ambiguity", or loose cause-and-effect coupling of events, where not every thing is well-marked and dovetails into a single coherent thesis that makes you think "wow! they were pulling us along by the nose from the beginning!" can be refreshing.
Look, I'm not deluded. I get that people's mileage may vary. Maybe I have bad taste, or my appreciation of fine television hasn't really matured from appreciating a good arc or setpiece to valuing a work an a whole series. I don't know. But I liked it. The problems that it experienced had it go, in my opinion, from a 10/10 show to a 7 or 8/10 show, and most people will probably say that it started to dip for them long before it did for me.
Thanks again for your responses, they are incredibly helpful.
>>47342728
>And vs the Shadows iirc that was because they somehow managed to forget that telepaths wreck Shadow vessels, and once they were reminded of that they were relatively effective (given that the Shadows had a gazillion year head start on them).
I think the shadows just didn't care. Their ships were piloted by captured and brainwashed members of other races (especially humans). So a big fleet is destroyed. Ok. So what? No actual Shadows were killed, just their servants and constructs. They didn't really have any skin in the game at all.
In fact, it was kind of part of the plan. Pop up, lay waste to the galaxy, convince everyone that they're on the brink of extinction, get them desperately scrambling to advance (technologically, economically, politically, culturally) to handle the threat. Cull out the weakest and least promising individuals, factions, and species. Then let yourself get "beaten" and go back into hiding so things can settle down for a few millennia.
The first time actual Shadows died was when Sheridan when to Z'ha'dum. And at that point they really did go apeshit. Which kind of proves their own point. They themselves had long since stopped advancing because it had been eternity since the last time they'd faced a genuine threat to thsemvles personally. That threat appears, and now suddenly they advance (by heading beyond the Rim).
Also note that the Vorlons had seeded the younger races with telepaths comparatively recently. And when they proved to be a major threat to their ships, the Shadows started using enslaved telepaths as their pilots to counteract the problem.
>>47346564
You're welcome. And thanks for your pic related. I'd never seen it but it's a really cool idea.
Yeah some of it is expectations. If you go in not expecting much, then it's fine.
But the show was casually making promises about how awesome and important and deep they were. If you believed them, you were more likely to watch (good for them) and much more likely to be disappointed (bad for you).
Also it's that other shows (like B5) have been able to pull this off. I know Star Trek production alums (like Ron Moore) are allergic to B5, but Moore based his career from DS9 onward on claiming/trying to be what JMS already was. Hell, even shows like Buffy and Chuck-- neither of which made any great promises about philosophy and greater meaning-- manage to be ABOUT something and have authorship that nBSG totally lacked. And it's easy to be resentful because they really did do so much right.
>>47342231
That's kinda how the show went. Planned for 5 seasons, cut to 4 so they had to cram shit in, then got a fifth season and they had used up all the plot.
>>47346707
I guess my lack of ire in that regard was a result of me not being exposed to any of the promotional hullabaloo or behind-the-scenes promotion, at all.
I also don't know or follow the personalities behind the writing, so I can only take each work on its own merit, being as forgiving as can be expected. I can't connect the dots and say "well these mistakes are following him around, it turns out he is a hack and a liar!" that would probably influence me heavily, and darken my enjoyment of what good there was in his corpus.
I resisted watching nBSG for quite a while, being told from all corners of the earth that it was dogshit. Didn't see any promotional material or analytical media on it (let's just say I was in Dimension X for a couple of years). Then, I decide "what the hell" and download it, and it's fucking fantastic. Add to all that my increased tolerance for some things, and all in all it was a wild ride that I had never experienced before, all the greats included.
Even knowing what I know now, I feel like they lost direction a bit at some point, things got disjointed a couple of episodes from the end, but they made a great recovery out of what could have been an unmitigated disaster. All this during a trying time for television, the writer's strike.
As for B5 succeeding - "pulling it off" sounds like they didn't have it all worked out from the start, which I imagine they did - that's true. While I love B5, it does suffer quite a bit from some things (beyond production values, I mean).
I think nBSG will forever go down in my memory as a unique, sadly flawed (but not fatally so) television sci-fi gem of the last few decades.
>>47346216
That's interesting, but also kind of gross.
Kinda looks like a dumpling, though.
>>47329175
>Minbari
>Star Trek
>>47346216
>smooth brain
>and can't even recognize a eucalyptus leaf as food, unless it is on a branch.
>literally a species of retards
how the fuck do they remember to breath, let alone eat or fuck?
>>47341176
Technically they did loose that war.
>>47347016
Same way the severely retarded do: instinctive action of the hind brain. That shit is hardwired into every animal.
And yes, that includes fucking.
>>47347085
>And yes, that includes fucking.
Tell me more
>>47347127
I have a friend that works as a tard wrangler... Full on, gorilla-shaped potatos just suddenly rutting and screeching.
I do not envy him, but the pay is better than the teachers he works with.
>>47346518
The broest of bros until the very end.
>>47347198
TELL ME LESS! TELL ME LESS!
>>47334172
>Columbus was an utter cunt to the natives there, but he was a fucking Italian
his family were Sephardic jews from portugal and spain though. its how he got his hands on the Piri Reis map(that was a copy of a chinese map), and the funding from the spanish crown. his family was a huge trading clan that were deeply entrenched in Istanbul, and everywhere else in the Mediterranean dealing in spices and gems, and silks.
>>47346294
This is an excellent explanation of the main reasons people turned against the show.
The one thing I would add is that the ending can easily be viewed as having a Luddite message (though Moore says that wasn't the intent). Anything the smacks of "technology is bad" is never going to be a popular sentiment with sci-fi fans.
>>47327942
Don't forget that even years later they're still big babies about the fact that they lost one ship during their genocidal war.
>How dare those human dogs use tactics!
>>47339085
Several people have touched on why the show is generally disliked* but if you want to know why it's _hated_ you need only look at the posts of the True Believer in this thread (>>47341296 etc.). People don't hate MLP because of MLP; they hate it because of the fucking Bronies.
*Though I'm surprised how irredeemably stupid and vile they made the characters hasn't been brought up. The writers were probably going for 'nuanced' and 'gritty' or some shit but right from Oldama handing over power during a battle to a power-mad kindy teacher I just wanted to stab all dem motherfuckers in the face with a forest fire.
>>47343662
It probably started that way but by the time of the show their slap fight had degenerated one red cunt hair away from 'Everyone is to think and act like us. Or Else' vs 'Everyone fights. No-one co-operates or copies'. Hell, even when they left beyond the Rim they were still pulling that shit, the Shadows leaving the Drakh to stir shit up and the Vorlons leaving their storehouse of knowledge on their homeworld to cause stagnation (which the ending disappointingly implied the humans fell for hook, line and sinker).
I clearly remember the end of the show from an anime/OVA from the late 80s/mid 90s. It started off as some space horror, one of the crew members is thought dead and found in a cryo tube or some shit(i remember the chick has blue hair, might not have been eaten by space monsters previously). blah blah blah they find a planet and they colonize it resulting in modern earth.
The problem with nuBSG is how dumb it ended. The first few seasons were top notch, but due to the writers strike it sharply turned retarded. Shit went full NO YOU ARE THE CYCLONS to just about every notable character. Cylons had no real goal, Baltar is some kind of jesus insert instead of yet again lying his ass off and being delusional. Then somehow you get a 3 way species orgy to make modern humans. Like I am all for the 12 Colonies being the pre-sequel isreal shit but the handling was so bad.
Had a coworker semi-binge watch it. The ending retroactively ruined the rest of the show for him. I watched it when it came out, I still like the first 2 seasons or so.
>>47346621
That actually makes a lot of sense, though with the overall themes of the show I wouldn't be surprised if they forgot about their plan and just went around starting shit because "that's what we do, right?"
>using enslaved telepaths as their pilots to counteract the problem.
I don't recall the show indicating that the fact the Shadows were using telepaths in their ships had any appreciable difference. I think it was implied at one point or another that they were using telepaths exclusively (or close to it), though iircSheridan's wifewasn't a telepath but was being used in a similar manner so IDK.
>>47349298
Anna was one of the earliest pilots. Then after Lyta helped them destroy a shadow ship, there was the episode where they found all the frozen telepaths.
So it seems like they used normal people, then switched to telepath pilots after Sheridan uses telepaths to defeat them.
![NOVACLASSDREADNOUGHT[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/5T75h3X.png "NOVACLASSDREADNOUGHT[1].png")
>>47342867
Dilgar! Did you say Dilgar? WE GOT SOMETHING FOR THEM RIGHT HERE!
>>47333125
Not after Doctor Who went to shit and gave birth to one the worst fanbases on this planet.
>>47350293
Tell me I can buy B5 ships to paint man, and where I can do it. That pic hngh
>>47331691
Did you sleep through half the episodes? That's barely the plot.
>>47337079
Is this in chronological order?
>>47350496
https://agents-of-gaming.myshopify.com/collections/babylon-5-wars
Ignore some of the wonky painting bases in pic related. was making a style of removable base that was a pain in the ass and didn't have enough at the time.
>>47350635
>>47350655
>>47328253
>Spanish conquerors didn't pay any attention to south american peoples, just butchered them
Bitch please. The Spanish would not have stood a chance if they hadn't made a series of profitable alliances with the natives.
>eventually putting them into one state to use as a buffer for the civil war.
Haha right, they put that much forethought into it.
What I like more about B5 and ST is that till this day me and my father can still chat about the plots and characters. Specially those of B5.
>>47346490
Gaelic speakers are a tiny minority in Ireland, but the world over is full of Irish descendants.
Look at the average south american and tell me they're not Indian descendants
>>47335841
Never before have I seen a person admit so freely that a show was too deep for them. Good for you.
>>47328488
I'd just like to point out that something like half of the Geth decided that exterminating all sapient life in the galaxy sounded like a grand old time and threw their lot in with the Reapers.
Before Mass Effect 3, the Geth-Quarian conflict was a muddy affair where neither side was entirely in the right or entirely in the wrong. Then Mass Effect 3 happened and apparently the Geth were good robots and dindu nuffin, which is pretty funny given that Mass Effect 1 happened.
