Explain to me why GURPS isn't broken.
I'm not going to lie, some parts of GURPS still confuse the hell out of me. Most of these issues I have is with skills. What is average level for a skill?
I always thought that a person who is "good" with firearms would have ~20 in the appropriate firearms skill, but I'm realizing that they might have a way higher score.
What would be an average skill level for an average person? Would the average marine have a 20 in rifle, or a 60? Would a boxer have 18 brawling or 90 brawling? I seriously have no idea how to gauge these numbers.
I am also very annoyed that anything you don't specifically state your character is proficient is is considered a weakness. Just because my character has never fired a gun before, should they really receive a default of DX-4? This means that if an average human has a 10 DX and has never fired a gun before, they have to roll under 6 to shoot an easy target at a close range. That comes out to a perplexingly low 9.3% chance of success. Some skills, such as diplomacy, have a default of IQ-6, which means that an average person must roll under 4, and only has a 1.9% chance of success.
Simply because I didn't spend valuable and limited points in a skill I didn't think was going to be useful, my character is completely inept in the art of speaking with others. The absurdity of this absolutely stuns me. I don't want to list every single skill my character has ever attempted, just to make an average human being who has a feasible aptitude to perform various basic tasks.
If I wanted to play as a normal human being, I would need to put points into drive, despite not being a good driver, despite not driving for very long, and despite the fact that the game isn't focused on driving cars, just to ensure that my character isn't completely inept when behind the wheel.
Post these questions on the SJgames.com forums, they'll take good care of you.
>>47308899
Let me put it this way.
Average human soldier, statted out not only in his career but also non-military stuff like school education, hobbies and other variations is roughly 100/-50 for total 150 points available to be spent on stuff.
How exactly will your ass manage to acquire 20 rifle and 90 brawl with so little points?
Next, GURPS is 3d6 roll under system, that means you have to roll UNDER your skill number to succeed.
If skill is 12, you have to roll 12 or less on the 3d6.
Average of 3d6 is 11-13, as such skill level of 12 means that the person performs this skill professionally, for money or good enough to earn money.
Average infantry soldier would shoot his rifle at skill level 12-13. Special Forces would go for 14-16. Secret Government Hitmen can reach 18-20, but 20 is considered "The best person alive."
On topic of defaults, since you've never shot the gun before, you're either shit at it or your dexterity is good enough to let you not be shit. This appears in many systems such as DnD with it's weapon proficiencies. You will not be as good as a trained soldier the first time you picked up a gun. Neither will you be a good speaker if you lack Charisma, can't speak fluently and pleasantly and don't know the tricks of guiding the conversation to your benefit.
>If I wanted to play as a normal human being, I would need to put points into drive, despite not being a good driver, despite not driving for very long, and despite the fact that the game isn't focused on driving cars, just to ensure that my character isn't completely inept when behind the wheel.
No you won't. To recieve driving license literally everywhere you have to pass driving school. A point in driving skill equals that. If your character doesn't have this point, that means he never learned how to drive and thus is inept at it.
>>47308899
You should read Skills chapter instead of pretending it never was exexplained.
>>47308899
>Just because my character has never fired a gun before, should they really receive a default of DX-4?
Yes.
>This means that if an average human has a 10 DX and has never fired a gun before, they have to roll under 6 to shoot an easy target at a close range. That comes out to a perplexingly low 9.3% chance of success.
How is that perplexing? If you have no training or practice you're going to be lucky to hit the target.
>Some skills, such as diplomacy, have a default of IQ-6, which means that an average person must roll under 4, and only has a 1.9% chance of success.
Also reasonable. If you have literally never practiced convincing people, you're going to do a shitty job.
Remember that most GURPS skills default to other skills as well. If you have some experience, you're not going to have that kind of shitty default. If you don't, then yes, you're going to suck. Welcome to life.
Where is the best place to get started with GURPS? I don't wish to tread the SJ forums.
>>47309707
gurps lite
>>47309475
I agree though that GURPS' defaults are a little steep. I'd put shooting a gun at DX-2 not DX-4. First time I shot a gun I had no issue hitting/
>>47309765
Ohh thank you
>>47309765
They're steep, but on the other hand, there's an acknowledged problem that if you have high attributes they actually end up incredibly generous and make you brokenly-competent.
>>47309229
Also, this. OP didn't even try, giving numbers like 60 or 90. There are very clear guidelines about what average skills are.
>>47309765
If you take time to aim the penalty is offset somewhat. Don't forget a turn is a one second interval
>>47309850
Agreed. It's a problem I have with stat + skill systems in general.
>>47309912
Very true. I often forget that shit. Aiming is VERY useful in GURPS.
>>47309198
Technically the average of 3d6 is 10.5, but other than that you're right about everything I think.
>>47309765
Remember that GURPS skills are considered a measure of doing the skill when in a stressful situation. Target shooting or driving to work isn't the same thing as shooting someone shooting back or participating in a high speed car chase.
>>47310161
True, you can reliably turn your Guns skill from DX-4 to DX+2 or even DX+4 if you're plinking at a paper target at the range.
>>47308899
Did OP even read the books?
Where the hell is he pulling 60 and 90 out of? His ass?
Also, i love how he says he doenst understand the skills , but then proceeds to "explain" probabilities and defaults to us.
>>47310352
That's what you do when you think you've got something wrong, though. You describe the reasoning that got you to where you are, and then people who have it right show you where you went wrong.
It's a time-tested method, man.
>>47308899
>This means that if an average human has a 10 DX and has never fired a gun before, they have to roll under 6 to shoot an easy target at a close range.
That's only for using a gun in an "adventuring situation" (e.g. a gunfight), and only if you don't take any time to aim. If a character is shooting targets on a range, they would get a lot of bonuses (+1 for All-Out Attack, another +2 to +9 depending on the gun, at least +1 from a good shooting range). It's perfectly realistic that scrub who's never shot a gun can't hit shit in a gunfight without carefully aiming.
Similarly, Driving gets a +4 bonus for regular commutes, so someone with Driving-10 won't crash half the time unless they get in a high-speed chase or something.
As for realistic skill levels, pic related.
>>47312494
Don't forget the bonus to Guns skill for not being retarded. If your IQ is above 8 you get a bonus, and a bigger one if it's 12 or above.
>>47310013
You can get a 10.5 result while rolling 3 dice?
>>47308899
>90 brawling
>>47311626
This. I exaggerated on purpose. The highest stat we've ever had in game was 20.
>>47312611
>doing 12 Rapid Strikes and and still having effective skill 18
>>47312723
That's a boxing match I'd pay to see
>>47312815
GURPSU NO WA ORE NO STANDO DA
ORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORA
>>47313319
Holy shit bro
Now I really want to see it
>>47313319
my fucking sides
>>47312611
I wonder if that is some shitty attempt at false-flagging people that don't like GURPS for actual reasons.
>>47313319
>GURPSU NO WA ORE NO STANDO DA
you cheeky fucken cunt
>>47308899
>I am also very annoyed that anything you don't specifically state your character is proficient is is considered a weakness. Just because my character has never fired a gun before, should they really receive a default of DX-4? This means that if an average human has a 10 DX and has never fired a gun before, they have to roll under 6 to shoot an easy target at a close range. That comes out to a perplexingly low 9.3% chance of success. Some skills, such as diplomacy, have a default of IQ-6, which means that an average person must roll under 4, and only has a 1.9% chance of success.
I'm assuming we're talking "in combat" rather than "stationary target." In which case yes, absolutely, pistols are piss difficult to hit with.
Rifles should default to like DX+2 or something, they're easy, but pistols are fucking impossible to hit with.
Source: Fired both rifle and pistol in the military. Rifle: Easy to hit moving targets at 200 yards. Pistol: Difficult to hit stationary target at 30 yards.
>>47309765
>I agree though that GURPS' defaults are a little steep. I'd put shooting a gun at DX-2 not DX-4. First time I shot a gun I had no issue hitting/
First time you shot a pistol at a stationary target at a range or first time you shot a moving target in combat?
Because the DX-4 default is what you roll in combat.
What i hate about GURPS is that its brutal and unforgiving. It requires a great deal of initial investment to create a character and when you finally get into combat the mechanics are completely unforgiving.
You have assault rifles doing something like 5d6 damage when you're average character only has 10 hit points. Every point of damage you take is a -1 to your next roll unless you take a 10 point advantage called high pain threshold, which basically makes it a must have, which is thematically inapproriate for certain types of characters and playstyles. The over/under rolling is annoying because it requires complicated subtraction and addition, unlike say eclipse phase which is more like blackjack. The speed/range table is tedious and annoying, and most weapons accuracy bonuses are fucking HUGE.
The rules involving called shots and limb damage are wonky, the bell curve on a 3d6 removes a lot of the randomness of combat and tends to give you a lot of mediocre roles. Most of the rules are generally vague and meant to apply to vast array of different circumstances, but are generally too realistic for most peoples tastes.
I could list about a dozen other, purely mechanical problems about GURPS, but i think the main problem is that they are constantly trying to apply "realism" to fantasy settings, which is really counterproductive.
>>47314561
What did you expect from being shot with a goddamn assault rifle? Just walking it off?
Check out the rules for survivable guns or however it's called.
>>47312494
To be fair, 18 is kinda retarded. If your players are min maxing assholes, you need to make these super natural monsters with 20+ in shit to give them a challenge.
>>47314561
>Not unleashing your inner weeb with a weapon master extra effort all-out double attack rapid strike with dual weapons
>>47312570
Average usually means mean, not median or mode.
>>47314561
>they are constantly trying to apply "realism" to fantasy settings
>fantasy
That aside, Appendix Z - Survivable Guns makes it much easier to live through being shot.
>>47314916
that would be the OTHER problem with GURPS, is that its eminently exploitable.
>>47314980
There's literally nothing exploitable with unleashing a mountain of chinese whoop fu on your opponents. Well, besides my GM:s sour face anyway
>>47314874
Nah. Something as trivial as light conditions will consistently fuck a score of 18.
Increasing the number of NPS also helps.
>>47314916
Just play anima.
As math heavy and lethal
>>47315225
>Just downgrade bro. You don't need to have as much fun as possible when a worse but more hipster alternative is available.
And then there's this fucking guy
>>47315328
>weeb
>anima not being an automatic upgrade
And then there is THIS guy
>>47308899
It's a simulationist game, and you're complaining that it simulates reality? That's what they're going for. The idea is it gives a numeric and randomized representation of EVERYTHING that makes up a human being.
Yeah, you have to put skill points into driving to know how to drive. Just like in real life, you aren't born knowing how to drive. And even a lot of people who have been driving for years still suck at it. And of course you'd have trouble shooting a gun if you'd never picked one up before. Doesn't matter how close the target is if you don't know how to turn off the safety, which you wouldn't if you had literally never touched a gun.
If you don't like it, fair enough, I mean, I don't like it either. But it isn't "broken" because it does what it was trying to do.
>>47314561
... Yes?
Sorry, I don't understand the nature of your complaiments. The system is intended to simulate heroic realism, and it does. If you get shot with an assault rifle, you are likely to die. If you get hit with sword, you get shocked and will need to recover. GURPS models this perfectly adaquately. All is well.
Just tweak the combat rules as appropriate (basic book has an entire section dedicated to that).
And RE: rifles - they do 5d6 damage but your average tl appropriate security gear to resist starts as DR 15 and goes up from there. With trauma plates meant to resist rifle fire and a kevlar vest, you have enough DR to soak all assault rifle attacks. Because that's how GURPS works. If you're not wearing body armor, of course you're going to get very hurt when you get shot.
>If I wanted to play as a normal human being, I would need to put points into drive, despite not being a good driver, despite not driving for very long,
A lot of people spend an hour or two driving every day. A few years of that and it'll be one of their most trained skills by far.
ON the other hand, take someone who doesn't have a clue how to drive, put him behind the wheel, and let him try and figure out the parking brake, clutch and gearbox on his own. It's gonna be a while before he gets anywhere whatsoever.
>>47308899
>What is average level for a skill?
11-12, depending on skill.
>>47309198
>Average human soldier
No more than 50 points. 100+ is heroes.
>>47308899
>If I wanted to play as a normal human being, I would need to put points into drive
Amerifag detected
>Tfw you're yuropeen and don't risk getting robbet, raped, stabbed, murdered and/or eaten the moment you step into the bus
>>47314561
>You have assault rifles doing something like 5d6 damage when you're average character only has 10 hit points.
Go get shot by an assault rifle and tell us how it feels.
>Every point of damage you take is a -1 to your next roll
Caps at -4. Getting shot/stabbed is a big deal, yo.
>unless you take a 10 point advantage called high pain threshold, which basically makes it a must have, which is thematically inapproriate for certain types of characters and playstyles.
The idea is that you shouldn't be getting hit literally all the time. Because that kills you. And as others have pointed out, the right body armor can more-or-less stop rifle rounds (because that's what it's supposed to do).
>The over/under rolling is annoying because it requires complicated subtraction and addition
>complicated subtraction and addition
Guy...
>The speed/range table is tedious and annoying
I don't disagree. I think it was Tactical Shooting (or an addition to it?) that suggested boiling things down to easy/medium/hard shots with set modifiers. Much easier.
>and most weapons accuracy bonuses are fucking HUGE.
Turns out aimed shots are orders of magnitude better than unaimed shots. Who knew?
>the bell curve on a 3d6 removes a lot of the randomness
That's the idea, yes.
>and tends to give you a lot of mediocre roles
Only if your skill is mediocre.
>Most of the rules are generally vague and meant to apply to vast array of different circumstances, but are generally too realistic for most peoples tastes.
>most people
You aren't most people, anon.
>but i think the main problem is that they are constantly trying to apply "realism" to fantasy settings, which is really counterproductive.
No, YOU'RE trying to apply "realism" to games you want to be unrealistic and then blaming the system.
Heroic realism is not a fault of the system, it's a choice that you can take or leave. Selecting something you don't like and then complaining that you don't like it is just stupid.
>>47316912
>I don't disagree. I think it was Tactical Shooting (or an addition to it?) that suggested boiling things down to easy/medium/hard shots with set modifiers. Much easier.
Gun Fu.
Another also had a similar table and IIRC a Pyramid issue too.
>>47309198
>shooting guns is governed by dexterity
GURPS proves to be shit once more.
>>47317046
What should it be based off, then?
![tumblr_inline_n32el9gQPc1sqwhx7[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/Gfs8dmG.png "tumblr_inline_n32el9gQPc1sqwhx7[1].png")
>>47317046
>>47317066
It should be dexterity because literally all of the relevant factors bar eyesight are represented by dexterity in GURPS, that anon is just a fucking moron.
>>47309765
You have to remember that a turn I'm gurps is just 1 second. If you never picked up a gun in your life and have just one Second to aim and shoot.... well. .. you're missing this shot or winning the lotto. No other way around it
>>47317290
It's pretty much physically impossible to raise, aim and shoot a firearm in a second, you're looking at 2-4 seconds for that.
After that point shooting a semi-automatic handgun 1 aimed shot every 2 seconds is pretty much standard.
Honest question. It's been a while since I ran GURPS, what is their version of Dungeon Master, Game Master, Storyteller, Referee, etc?
>>47309198
>Average of 3d6 is 11-13, as such skill level of 12 means that the person performs this skill professionally, for money or good enough to earn money.
This is an important point! To explain this a bit further for other people a regular test without any modifiers (+0) is considered to be under challenging conditions already. If you're doing the task in a everyday, no pressure scenario then you'd likely get a massive (+4) bonus. So even that one point in Drive, that means you learned how to drive as a teenager, will get you through your commute. In fact, the core rulebook says its not really appropriate to have characters roll for that kind of mundane, damn-near-auto-pass task.
Your GM is more likely to ask you to test Drive for a chase, escaping an ambush, following that taxi, etc.
>>47317386
"GM".
I don't think they ever write "game master" fully. They talk of "game mastering" though.
I have to wonder why GURPS spends so much time modeling things it doesn't want players to do. Combat is short, messy, and anticlimactic more often than not (just like real fighting) and is thus prudent to avoid. So why are so many rules so focused on it?
Why are there rules governing driving-as-daily-commute? Why must basic functions of life be siloed in separate skills entirely so that your athletic skills give you no help when trying to sneak about or throw something accurately?
The way the point system is designed is so that players have to make "hard choices" about where to allocate them, but all it really does is force them to choose between being competent at the thing their character is supposed to be good at (and performing at the power level expected for the game) while being retard-level useless at everything else or being a "well-rounded" and "realistic" character who is good at nothing.
It might surprise your average GURPS-loving NEET but "realistic" and "average" people are almost always both well rounded enough to function in myriad activities AND highly capable in their area(s) of expertise. Being well rounded AND specialized go hand in hand. Your average sports star is probably better read than you and your average military sniper probably has stronger persuasion and leadership skill than you.
>>47318511
I don't understand.
>why are there detailed rules for XY
So you can make a game about XY. You game is not about daily commute? Skip those rules.
On point buying: What are *you* good at? Like, really good? Chances are: You are good at nothing. Shitposting, maybe. You are probably well rounded, realistic. That's because you are not a hero.
If you were, you'd have more points to spend and suddenly you are able to be both well rounded and specialized in a specific area.
Sport stars and snipers are well rounded, specialized in their specific thing and on top of that just plain better (more points) than (you). More points. Because they are not basement-dwellers shitposting on /tg/.
What did you expect? GURPS is a realistic setting. If you use a low amount of points to spend on the buying, you will get lowly characters.
>>47309707
>Where is the best place to get started with GURPS?
The SJ forums.
>>47308899
>That comes out to a perplexingly low 9.3% chance of success.
>Perplexingly low
No. It really isn't. Someone who has never fired a gun before is going to be a terrible shot the first few times. Put them in a combat situation and 9.3% chance of actually hitting their opponents is GENEROUS.
>>47314561
>complicated subtraction and addition
>too realistic
>>47318511
>I have to wonder why GURPS spends so much time modeling things it doesn't want players to do.
So that GM's who do want to do it, have the rules available.
>Why are there rules governing driving-as-daily-commute?
There aren't. The daily commute is just an example given for non-stressful situation bonuses. And again, for the GM's who might want them.
>The way the point system is designed is so that players have to make "hard choices" about where to allocate them, but all it really does is force them to choose between being competent at the thing their character is supposed to be good at (and performing at the power level expected for the game) while being retard-level useless at everything else or being a "well-rounded" and "realistic" character who is good at nothing.
Specialists vs generalists comes up in essentially every game where you are allowed to build your character. The power level expected for the game is entirely up to the GM to arbitrate. There is no mandatory CR for encounters.
>It might surprise your average GURPS-loving NEET but "realistic" and "average" people are almost always both well rounded enough to function in myriad activities AND highly capable in their area(s) of expertise.
You seem to think that hyper-specialisation is the only option. That's rather obviously nonsense. Look at any of the templates and you'll see a well-rounded person, who is still very good at their professional role.
>>47318511
>why do RPGs have rules for combat when there's a chance your character could get hurt
