Why would there be atheists in a setting with provably real gods and afterlives?
>>47267299
Because some people are stubbornly contrarian
>>47267299
why do idiots exist?
>>47267299
Why would there be anti-vaxers in RL?
>>47267299
Because some guy decided "Fuck the gods".
>>47267299
why is the Muslim hanging out with an atheist?
why are the roiling lots?
There might not be.
Though you could also have a society that believes that deities are the false personifications of natural magical forces, and not actually our creators or worthy of worship.
>>47267327
Acknowledging that there are gods to fuck isn't atheism
>>47267299
Why would there be climate change deniers in a setting with provably real temperature increases and data going back a century?
Gods are viewed as either people with extreme magical powers/artifacts, or some other excuse people try to use to rationalize it.
Why does it have to be atheists, why not agnostics? Haven't felt the embrace of a greater power and simply don't worry too much about it.
I guess atheists could just consider them to be ethereal beings which science simply can't explain yet, but not true all-powerful gods worthy of submission.
For the same reason you have a resurgence of flat earth shit today. Or those who think remembering things wrong is proof for a multiverse.
Some people naturally gravitate toward retardation and irrationality that goes against what's normal in the setting.
>>47267344
If I could see the entirety of that political cartoon I could tell you.
>>47267354
The man was Kratos. He killed the gods.
Now there is atheism.
Keep up, senpai.
>>47267299
Atheism can be translated from "gods doesn't exist" to "Gods doesn't deserve to be worshipped"
In mtg, they did this by having the cat men obviously aware of the giga ass gods in the sky, they just couldn't see why they should worship what we're just Giants in their eyes with horrible egos and bad attitudes. That was a good way to go about it.
>>47267299
Real Talk? Because a lot of gamers are atheists and came from really bad religious backgrounds and wouldn't even want their fantasy character to be a believer, even in a world where it's objective truth.
So, assholes.
Because they see gods as just extremely strong wizards, and the afterlives as their creations.
>>47267382
i remember it's some fundimental christian bullshit about prayer not allowed in public school.
which is missing the fact that government endorsed prayer is not allowed in public schools.
>>47267299
I don't get why atheists exists in setting where the gods are and there servants can show up.
even when it's explain it's fucking stupid.
Like not believing in the afterlife in the Dragonball universe.
>>47267299
What's the difference between a god and any other kind of outsider? The town wizard can make things out of thin air
Atheists of the setting may question the definition of God and the term would likely change to fit those who do not worship Gods or accept them as true deities.
>>47267382
>If I could see the entirety of that political cartoon I could tell you.
It wouldn't help much.
>>47267440
Sounds about right.
You can believe gods exist without thinking they're worth worshiping.
>>47267299
Because gods don't show themselves often enough.
>>47267472
I don't think the artist understands how political cartoons are supposed to work.
>>47267454
Welcome to human beings 101;
people can be irrational, or atleast seem irrational to you.
Just because there is Empirical proof doesn't mean that somebody has to accept it. There's proof of global warming, and for a million and 1 reasons people deny it. Heck, even if global warming was a sham and pure coincidence then there'd be a billion people out there believing it. It's really not strange for people to have different world views changing from one person to another.
>>47267299
What constitutes a "proof", anyway? People have claimed they can prove God in this world, and there are still atheists.
>>47267499
Or, more importantly, schools.
>>47267299
Define "provably". Most setting with "provably" gods also have non divine guys doing greater deeds than most of that of the gods.
>>47267299
Most of them are probably like the witches and wizards of discworld.
They know the gods exist, hell they've even met with them on occasion, but they don't worship them the same way we don't worship the postman.
They see the god as a being that does a job, sometimes well, sometimes poorly, and they give them the respect they feel the god has earned, but they don't give them their faith because they know the god can fuck up, has fucked up, or probably had to clean up a mess the god in question left lying around.
If you can't find a god worthy of your faith, why worship at all?
>>47267512
Or how crucifixes are supposed to work.
>>47267472
Why is the California Department of Education a monkey?
>>47267472
>transgender druids
>militant homosexual ranger with wolf companion
>awakened ape
>sorceress with parasitic worm symbol on the robe
>>47267299
M: Brah, you know I haven't lost a game of monopoly in three years?
A: Shut up and roll man.
[He rolls]
M: You know what that sound is? That's me buying Parkplace.
A: ...
M: Mother fucker.
A: I hate you sometimes.
M: And now come the hotels!
>>47267531
>Why is the California Department of Education a monkey?
Because evolution is a hoax invented by Satan.
What, are you new to this?
Piss easy. Just have someone who doesn't see the point in worship.
Knowing something isn't having faith in it.
>>47267558
I thought thats Obama.
In Forgotten Realms you can be an atheist because the afterlife fucking sucks.
>>47267511
the difference between proving/disproving God's existence in this world is bullshit because you're trying to use Phyiscal evidence to prove/disprove the existence of a being that is beyond the Universe and our understanding.
In fantasy setting, a wizard can go to the a certain plane of existence and talk to the gods themselves, and clerics can use same abilities to do likewise.
the only problem with games like that is that their is a way to become a god, which can make people a little suspicious of the gods in general.
>>47267299
I mean, how much evidence are we talking here? Do the gods regularly show up and talk to mortsls?
Because let's face it, if some dude on the street just rushes up to me, ranting and raving he had a talk with god, I'm going to think he is a fucking lunatic.
>>47267472
I don't get it. If Sorcery actually existed I can guaran-fucking-tee that EVERYONE would be doing it. This shit drives me up the wall.
>>47267569
And then you get put in The Wall.
Didn't think that one out, didja?
>>47267558
Oh jeez, of course. Thanks.
>>47267299
It's not disbelief then, it would be a refusal to worship, or a distrust that creation is a result of a God or God's plan.
The Gods are merely extremely powerful beings who grant resources in exchange for worship. An atheist character might either see this as immoral, or refuse to worship them as beneath their dignity, or possibly casually offer worship to many gods in a practical, bargaining manner.
Or you can just go the flat-earth route of them refusing to believe in something that clearly exists.
>>47267299
Because setting designers don't know the term "Maltheism"
>>47267611
>If Sorcery actually existed I can guaran-fucking-tee that EVERYONE would be doing it.
Man, science exists that lets you do some insane ass shit and barely anyone does.
Hell, we have a problem with people going to school to read and you think everyone would try to learn magic?
>>47267611
The funny thing is, the position of the catholic church has always been that magic isn't real. I guess some denominations of protestantism didn't get the memo.
>>47267299
They may reject the gods as not worthy of worship.
Buddhism recognize gods as a part of the world, and argues that gods are not fit for adoration because they embody the nature of their domain and are thus not able to switch between different stages of being like humans are. Because the gods cannot alter their own nature they do not achieve enlightenment as humans can. This means the gods are not examples to be followed, but something to stay away from.
We might conceive of an atheist fantasy ideology on the same lines. If the gods cause suffering and bicker among themselves why would you venerate them? They are clearly not better than humans even though they might have more magical power. These beings are therefore not worthy of your time, and not worshiping gods is the only way to be truly free from their influence.
>>47267664
What about our oriental kin? What's their take on it? I know the neo-proties have been all over the place but what's going on in Greece and beyond?
>>47267664
it's more "don't put faith in things other than God" , but I guess that comes more to fortune telling things than magic.
>>47267706
I believe that the Orthodox/ Coptic Church believes the same as the Catholic Church.
>>47267670
*tips fedora*
>>47267299
Strictly disbelieving in the existence of gods when you could empirically experience their existence is kind of silly.
But why do you insist on being a simple-minded literalist? An "atheist" in such a world could simply refuse to accept the "divinity" of such beings. There's a lot of really great story and world building potential in such an idea.
You could really explore what exactly "divinity" and being a "god" means, and whether or not belief consists of recognizing the existence of a thing, or recognizing the thing as other people recognize it, or recognizing the thing as it wants to be recognized.
But more than likely, it would get chocked up to some hamfisted, half-brained bullshit with pseudo-sci-fantasy-math garbage, because most people attempting to explore these ideas are as brain-dead when it comes to creative thinking as you seem to be.
>>47267726
when it comes to stuff like that, mind you. the three churches are vastly different .
>>47267299
Because they intervene capriciously and are not to be relied upon or worshipped when you can go out and do things yourself?
Because you don't want to get tied up with cosmic bickering between multiple gods?
Because magic already exists that can produce "miracles"?
Because eternity of existence in an afterlife might be worse that just ending?
That all explains people who don't worship.
People who don't believe though, probably haven't seen proof. Adventurers may see gods all the time, but most people probably won't see any real evidence in their lives.
>>47267726
Actually the Orthodox stance at the moment is something closer to 'HO DON'T DO IT' with a focus in necromancy as of late, not sure about the Copts though.
>>47267664
>The funny thing is, the position of the catholic church has always been that magic isn't real.
I mean, aside from the whole witch trials thing. AFAIK one of the first gotcha questions is "do you believe in witches".
Unless you think witches aren't strictly magic, which I could see working as an argument.
>>47267299
in a setting with provable gods people would wonder about even higher entities and atheists would be sceptical about the existences of those and/or atheists would be the ones who don't recognize actual divinity (as in omnipotence, omnipresence etc) in the provable entities.
>>47267299
I Don't Call That Much Of An ArgumentIn none-quote form: "gods" may be as real as you or I, but we don't have to worship/respect/acknowledge them. Atheism in a world with gods works better if you're lightning-proof
>>47267299
>"The gods are more trouble than they're worth."
What you're looking for is called either dystheism or misotheism (don't remember which), where God or the gods are believed to be malevolent or at least unworthy of worship, regardless of their existence.
>>47267801
>Unless you think witches aren't strictly magic, which I could see working as an argument.
While I can't remember the exact details, I recall that "witch" had a very specific connotation back in the Middle Ages through the 17th/18th Century. There were different types of "magicians," and "magic" was definitely considered a real thing by the Catholic Church, at least in a form.
"Witches" were females who sold their souls to the Devil in order to further their station and gain earthly power. They cavorted with Demons and engaged in black rituals, and engaged in what was essentially "black magic" - curses, hexes, omen-telling, etc.
There were other forms of magic, like alchemy, healing, and warding magic, but the problem is that it's a very slippery slope from those forms of magic to black magic, and, from a theological point of view, it's not necessary with the sacrifice of Christ and the Lords protection of your immortal soul. By engaging in any sort of magic, you risk falling prey to demons and devils and other spirits (which definitely existed de facto in the Catholic mindset) and undermined the Churches authority.
"Witchcraft" has come to mean anybody who wields magic in modern times, but it did have a very specific definition back when it was relevant.
>>47267299
> Why would there be atheists in a setting with provably real gods and afterlives?
The Devil made them disbelieve God.
>>47267315
Well, in some cases you can't trust the government to keep things in check. There was this mess in Ukraine recently, when tenth of thousands of kids got injected with faulty vaccine, because someone had been cutting corners.
>>47267299
I've had people play impious characters in fantasy settings with very clear and present deities.
But that's about as far as it's gone.
>>47267801
That was the official stance of the Church, iirc. Basically, a Witch was a heretic/pagan whose primary crime was a disbelief in the true God, as opposed to one with the actual power to affect the natural world.
After the Protestant thing kicked off and the Wars of Religion started, witch trials started to be more what we tend to think of with people making random accusations of incubus summoning and milk spoiling and what have you.
>>47267299
Because some motherfuckers always gotta swim upstream.
Atheism would just be the argument that gods as they're perceived don't exist.
Your "provable gods" are charlatans using acts of science and trickery to appear more powerful than they are. By amassing followers, all they've done is become political leader.
It then becomes the belief that no true god exists. There is no one true creator and all these deities of various sorts are not worthy of worship.
>>47267956
/thread
>>47267299
>>47267933
>Well, in some cases you can't trust the government to keep things in check.
This does not mean that vaccines are dangerous. This means that low quality vaccines were administered. Anti-vaxxers tend to find these outlier points and use them are arguments for their whole movements.
While the government shouldn't be able to force you to vaccinate your children with faulty vaccines, you are still responsible as a parent to ensure they're immunized from diseases that can kill them during their developmental years.
>>47267910
IIRC, the whole "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" thing used a word that could also be translated as "poisoner". It was about people who used magical curses to inflict sickness and death upon others.
>>47268045
This.
Also the difference between the Ukrainie and the US is that the US has a decent health system, and aren't fighting a huge war in there country right now.
>>47267299
They decide they dont like gods and dont want any of their shit.
>>47268045
>This does not mean that vaccines are dangerous. This means that low quality vaccines were administered.
The thing about that is, while something can be greatly beneficial if done right, you have to account for the chance of it going wrong. Ideals are only practical if they're achievable; the risks are something you'll have to deal with if you go through with them.
>>47268126
Well, with prices like that it better be damn good.
>>47267299
>Why would there be atheists in a setting with provably real gods and afterlives?
I don't know, why do we have flat earthers in an era where we can go to space and take pictures of a spherical earth?
>>47267299
To be contrary.
>>47267299
>Why would there be atheists in a setting with provably real gods and afterlives?
I don't know. Why are there religious people in a world without any proof of gods or an afterlife?
>>47267576
> the difference between proving/disproving God's existence in this world is bullshit because you're trying to use Phyiscal evidence to prove/disprove the existence of a being that is beyond the Universe and our understanding.
There are also philosophical arguments in this world that don't rely on specific physical evidence but on concepts like "causality" or "comparative" from which one can reason to God. (Whether one accepts the reasoning is a different matter, but that brings us back to the question of what constitutes a proof.)
> In fantasy setting, a wizard can go to the a certain plane of existence and talk to the gods themselves, and clerics can use same abilities to do likewise.
I declare the guy renting the second floor of the house from me a god, and the second floor itself to be a plane of existence. Now I can use the ability of "ladder" to go to another plane of existence and talk to a god, in this world too!
In a fantasy setting, why is Plane Shift any more impressive than a ladder? It's magic, but so is the ladder I just made with Fabricate.
>>47268164
It is actually, pic related. Health insurance covers most of the cost, too
>>47268164
I payed 10 dollars for one last year, and generally speaking, It can be free or even cheaper when flu season starts.
>>47268191
What makes me laugh about flat earth believers is that their basing their ideas on two people who were mocked by their peers, both religous and scientific, at the time they made their claims.
>>47268158
The chance of it going right far outweigh the risk of it going wrong.
People have died getting their tonsils removed but for the vast majority its totally harmless.
>>47267299
Easy: They're anti-theists.
See Imperium from Anima.
>>47267299
Same answer as always: in that case of gods walking the earth, why would you think they're somehow more special than the odd dragon or demon or whatever kind of absurdly powerful being? There's a difference between not believing in their existence and not believing they're gods. I mean, you really only have their word they created all that stuff around you.
>>47268214
Huh, it does look efficient.
>>47267299
They decide that the real gods are not worthy of being called deities, either because they know too much about them or, on the contrary, they're completely misinformed.
>>47267299
Deities aren't actually divine, just superpowered individuals, they aren't "gods" and they don't deserve worship. Miracles you say? Any high-leveled mundane wizard can do this shit.
There you go, atheism.
>>47267502
The world is on an oval shaped orbit. Sometimes it will be closer to the sun and sometimes it will be farther away. It might be getting hotter now but it wont stay that way.
>>47268164
No one pays the sticker price except suckers, they don't even expect you to. They purposefully over charge because they get to claim the difference between sticker price and what is paid to the federal government and they get a percentage back.
You need a lawyer or insurance company to negotiate for you usually, or just let them ding your credit for a couple years and come back that you don't have the cash and settle for a reasonable amount.
This shit's not free, it is a couple thousand bucks, you've got someone monitoring you for most of the day, call that like $500, and another $500 for the bed, and the doctor that actually did whatever is, say, $3k? $5k? Think about how much it'd cost to get a transmission rebuilt for your car, or major body work? Is it not even much more than that?
People bitch and whine about going to the dentist and how much that shit costs. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? It's $85 out of pocket for me to have my teeth cleaned. That is perfectly in line with the hourly rate of skilled labor. It's not even highly skilled/specialist labor like say a custom cabinet maker or network technician (Like $150-$200)
>>47267315
There are a fair share of idiots in that 'movement' but most I've met have problems trusting government and big pharma, not the idea of modern medicine.
And don't think the campaign to discredit and ridicule anyone who doesn't get their flu shot is turning them around.
>>47268302
Never mind that drugs are expensive as balls and they have to pay for that shit somehow.
>>47267801
Witch trials were not a thing in the inquisition. They were more common in protestant or mixed countries than in mostly catholic countries like Spain, where you can count the trials against witches with your hands.
But trials against blasphemers and stuff like that are a-ok.
>>47267801
At the time a 'witch' was someone who sold their soul to the devil in exchange for some kind of power.
Not a wiccan.
>>47268309
I would be more worried by polio than the flu.
>>47268302
>No one pays the sticker price except suckers, they don't even expect you to. They purposefully over charge because they get to claim the difference between sticker price and what is paid to the federal government and they get a percentage back.
So a system that charges people hundreds of thousands of dollars for life necessities works because the government pays for it instead.
Being atheist in a setting with provable, commonplace deities is about the same as denying climate change.
It... doesn't make sense and yet there are those that stick to their guns.
>>47268375
> 'make good'
> 'good' as is defined by him and what everyone around him thinks is good
Pfft, horsefaced Thor a fgt
>>47268375
>Only he can define what is good
Seems like he wants to be a god.
>>47268420
It's more like... they are able to charge more than what the market will bear for their services. They can charge so much because they have setup a monopoly protected by the government, and the excesses are paid for by the taxpayer, whether he wants them to or not.
The hospitals and doctors are for-profit institutions and they can use a man in washington to force people to pay them, so they do. Changing who the man is or the arrangement won't substantially change anything.
Two things that would actually change them: Break the AMA's stranglehold on universities, and accreditation. There are fewer medical universities now than a hundred years ago, despite much higher demand. And make it legal to form health-coops again. Like a bank is a for-profit financial service company, right? But there are credit-unions that are not for-profit, but offer most of the same services. There's insurance companies that are for profit, but coops are illegal because they BTFO of insurance companies at the beginning of the 20th century and they didn't like that in washington.
>>47268492
You've got Full Fedora.
>>47267866
>Atheism in a world with gods works better if you're lightning-proof
It's less dangerous but it's not any more sensible. The fact that you survived a lightning bolt doesn't change the fact that you were struck by lightning. In that context, refusal to acknowledge the gods is refusal to acknowledge reality; it may not be "necessary" to admit that they exist, but it's still true.
Admittedly, this is a pretty realistic answer to the question of why atheists would exist when gods are obviously real. In real life, lots of people (internet bullies, for example) find willful ignorance easy because it hurts everyone around them while not hurting them personally (or at least not in a way they think enough to notice).
In the setting there are two beings you will meet who are likely to call themselves "gods"
There are manifestations of significant human thoughts and concepts, akin to American Gods or the Lightning Thief series. There is a god(s) of love because people believe in the concept of love, and there is a Grim Reaper and other manifestations of death because people believe in it.There are angels and demons and spirits of various different faiths and religions who all act in the way people view them to (for example, Japanese Vampires will feel a definitive urge to stop and count rice if you drop it in front of them, while a european vampire won't. There are differences in the way Orthodox and Catholic angels act). These are very much directly tied to human existence and perception.
Then there are just beings who can be described as akin to just super powerful other dimensional creatures. You've got your Cthulu's, your otherworldly horrors, your aliens and world devours from beyond the veil and their minions.
In both cases, direct worship or even recognition of these beings empowers them via the human collective psyche (as well as those of other realms) though in the latter's case worship is only a bonus to their power. In truth, a sufficiently powerful man could accomplish the same thingperhaps a New York architect with magical experience. Each 'god' may or may not have their own otherworldly realm that can resemble depictions of the afterlife as much as they can be beyond human recognition. And a lot of them do eat souls, or what can be thought of as psychic imprints.
But to someone who looks at them from a certain perspective, though they call themselves gods and bear awesome powers, you can refuse to worship or even recognize them as divinely ordained and just being super powerful beings. Phenomenons of the universe, not religious deities at all.
More simply put none of them fit the idea of god as an omnipotent benevolent being.
>>47268635
How can you be fedora and a believer at the same time?
>>47268590
>It's more like... they are able to charge more than what the market will bear for their services. They can charge so much because they have setup a monopoly protected by the government, and the excesses are paid for by the taxpayer, whether he wants them to or not.
Except when they aren't, which results in people dying from easily treatable illnesses because society's safety nets are made to catch money and not lives.
>>47267299
in a setting with confirmed gods (like , with empiric proof or even direct contact)?
well , you could make a differntiation between those who simply dont worship and those who stubbornly deny the very existence of these gods.
former would be most PCs , latter would be your fedoratheist pal's edgelord character
>>47267410
That's Nay-theism, not atheism.
Atheism is the rejection of the belief in a god, nay-theism is the rejection of a god they believe or know to be real.
>>47268723
No. They are. You can go to a hospital and get treatment for almost anything. You can get a loan to pay for it. Very few people are dying because they can't find treatment. You can get a loan, you can get friends to help pay for it. You could actually have insurance in the first place, which is a legal requirement now.
Especially not from 'easily treatable' illnesses. No one is not getting a fucking dose of antibiotics because they are poor.
Is someone not getting gold-plated gene-tailored cancer treatement because it costs $150k/dose? Yeah, but no one else is getting that in any other country for free.
Shit is not free. It's expensive. Putting the government in charge of it doesn't make it better, it makes it worse. Lots of people die from delays in treatment because the government hasn't perfectly controlled the supply and demand in socialist paradise countries. Does anyone ever talk about that?
>>47267299
Because they believe that the gods are simply regular but powerful beings.
Pelor could be a 24th level Wizard for all the layman knows.
>>47267315
Well in my case my dad doesn't trust vaccines because about half an hour after my year-old baby brother got injected with some, he had a seizure and came down with a severe cause of the autisms. So now he thinks vaccines can cause autism, even if he admits they still work otherwise.
>>47268669
In otherwords, think of it like this.
If a man were to call himself a god, most would probably call him a lunatic.
Give that man some more power, and make him into a powerful wizard.
If he were to still call himself a god, most would see him as a megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur.
Then give him more power. Give him the ability to call thunderbolts from the heavens, or summon spirits from beyond the grave. Give him the power to open up a rift to a place for a person to go when they day, or summon armies of angels, or change time and space and the fabric of reality, knowledge beyond comprehension of mortals.
At which point do you call him a god? Is there any reason you personally would want to worship and have faith in him? Do worship him simply because he has more power than he did before?
An ass in a lion's skin is still an ass. But if you molecularity change his structure to that of a lion, alter his brain pattern and instincts to mimic a lion, and have him start to act like a lion, does he become a lion?
>>47267299
As atheists see theists as loonies, this time it's the opposite. To a theist, gods feel real, they see their influence every day and atheists refuse to see it that way. They are skeptical by saying: "What did the gods do for me? The sun comes up even though I'M not praying!"
It makes them looking like massive dickweeds, but I guess that's how theists see them in real life anyway.
>>47268813
>Putting the government in charge of it doesn't make it better, it makes it worse
lol keep regurgitating those republican talking points
>>47268822
>This
>>47268290
This is what the Athar faction in Planescape believe. That the "gods" are just powerful magical beings, no more deserving of worship than dragons or wizards. Though they also believe there is a true divinity they call the "Great Unknown." So they are actually closer to deism than atheism.
>>47268897
>The government already is in charge of it
Fucking Christ. That's the point. It is in charge and it doesn't fucking work.
>>47268937
That's literally where I was going with
>>47268829
>>47268669
>>47267566
i think that's Obama too
>>47268639
I recall a scene from Pratchett's "Feet of Clay", whereas an atheist golem was struck by lightning when doubting the divinity of gods and he merely responded with "I do not accept that as an argument" or something - and he is totally right tbqh. I think the discourse in that book covers the arguments in this thread nicely
>>47268639
You didn't get the reference then?
Imagine for a moment that you're a small collection of desert city-states, worshipping the gods normally as normal people do, and the local cults are generally helpful. There's not really any divine casters besides Clerics running about, so anything else is just "a different kind of Cleric" to you.
Now let us imagine that one day, a cult of one of the "Good" gods of your setting decides your local faiths are "Evil" and need to be purged with the fury of the sun. At first you don't pay them any mind.
But then, BAM! 300 years of completely uninterrupted, souped-up, divinely-empowered warfare between three churches of roughly equal size and influence, all wielding divine magic and summoning actual Angels and Demons and Elementals and such to fight for them. Entire villages are smote with divine wrath, plagues ravage the land, ancient cities are reduced to smoking ruins, and ancient ruins are plundered for "holy" artifacts to help in the war efforts.
Now imagine that one day, you're an average city-dweller, and this guy in the middle of your home town starts preaching a new idea - why not discard the gods altogether? For 300 years, the gods have brought you and your people nothing but pain, suffering, and destruction, with their bickering and that of their mortal followers - with whom they are confirmed to AGREE with the actions of, because if they didn't those followers would lose the powers they've been using to ruin everything for three centuries - and none of the OTHER gods besides the three that have been fighting over your home have intervened to answer your desperate prayers or ease your suffering or even reprimanded their fellows. You feel betrayed, hurt, abandoned, and alone - and this man is saying that of course that's what happens when you put your trust in gods or spirits! They betray you, they use you, they crush and annihilate you the moment you're no longer useful to them. Mortals can only trust themselves, no one else cares about them. (cont).
>>47268295
Yes, but the orbit does not change at the rate that would be required to cause the change that we have seen in recent years. But you know, keep denying what every scientist that isn't paid to deny it says.
Okay, so a lot of the arguments presented in the thread are similar on the premise of
"godhood" =/= divinity
or that the 'gods' aren't necessarily divine.
But then, what defines divinity?
>crtl + f Dorfl
>no results
/tg/, I am disappoint.
>>47269097
general consensus
>>47267299
Nihilism. Not a disbelief in deities, but a disbelief in the sacred. To them, "big powerful dude" is nothing more than a "big powerful dude", not "person you should worship".
You could be a Proactive Atheist.
>>47269039
You know they are paid either way, right?
And that the earth has been warmer before? And their climate models just don't work, they can't even make them match past data, much less predict the future? But somehow we're supposed to trust them?
And who says it's anthropogenic? There's very little evidence for this, we're due for a warming cycle anyway.
>>47269136
look harder
>>47269097
Perhaps nothing. Perhaps the thing that created the Gods.
>>47269097
Something you should devote yourself to; a higher purpose, the Good Cause.
>>47269033
300 years of uninterrupted warfare has an interesting habit of severely weakening or at least lowering the numbers of the forces fighting it, and this city where you live just happens to be where the weakest of weaksauce Clerics live. So this guy preaching this new idea where mortals stand for themselves and no one else gathers up all the local Wizards and Sorcerers and Alchemists and whatever else have you and he kicks out all the Clerics, destroys all the churches and artifacts of faith, and declares your city free.
Now of course this is good for you because you can live a life free of endless divinely-empowered war, and finally get back to things like baking and pottery. Eventually, this new army by mortals for mortals removes the rest of the remnants of the armies and kicks out ALL the other divine casters while they're at it, and everything is fine.
And then something big happens. Specifically, one of the big-time gods other countries like, one who everyone knows was originally mortal himself before ascending, up and DIES. His Clerics lose their powers, a giant hurricane hits the west coast of your country, and somewhere up north a giant gaping portal to DEMONS opens up and lets tons of them out.
One of your closest neighbors falls into a 30-year civil war because of the loss of its patron god, during which one of the noble houses decides to make a deal with Literally Satan for victory. And then they make worship of Literally Satan mandatory in all the areas they conquer. Which is almost all of the country, except two tiny parts that break away. One turns into The French Revolution, Except Forever and the other turns into 1780's America If It Was Sunshine And Fluffy Bunnies. Then a trader tells you that there's a country up north that saved itself in a similar way the last time a major disaster hit the planet by making a Faustian bargain to worship only the God of Pain, Suffering, Loss, and Unsafe BDSM With Spikes. (cont.)
>>47267529
or that sorcery literally isn't a thing
>>47269236
That's what d&d players want you to think.
>>47268569
>Only he can define what is good
That's not what he's saying at all. His claim is that objective morality exists independently of any particular being's opinion.
>>47269201
And then after ALL that, the gods decide "okay so maybe we're colossal screwups, but you guys don't even worship us so you're gonna get it" and visit you with MORE plagues, start turning what little farmland you have into more desert, and their servants in foreign lands start giving you looks smugger than pic related and going "hahaha look at the stupid little godless heathens" when the gods are behind all your problems in the first place.
You'd probably not be keen on the idea of worship either.
>>47269201
>>47269033
sounds like shitty pathfinder lore
>>47269304It is.
>>47267472
>critical thinking is denounced in this photo
It just goes to show what biblethumpers are really like.
>>47268937
>Athar
Came here to post this.
Another approach might be making them not so much atheists but rather anti-theists. The ideal shifts from "gods don't have any real power" to "gods shouldn't have any real power, it should be distributed equally among people". Think communism stance on "means of production" (as defined ideologically, not as applied practically).
>>47269326
It almost makes you think it's satirical.
>>47269385
There's the Ur-Priests prestige class in 3.5. They're divine casters who hate the gods, and get their power by stealing it instead of worship.
>>47267299
Well, "atheists" is kind of a broad term with a few different connotations to unpack, so let's just broadly go with "in a setting with provably real gods, why wouldn't everyone actively worship those gods?"
First of all, the fact that you can watch a guy throw lightning doesn't necessarily mean he's a god in a setting where wizards and sorcerors are a thing. So a common counter-argument could be that worshipping gods in a fantasy setting would be like a cargo cult, or a UFO cult in the modern day.
Next, these gods usually don't have wide acclaim and tend to be gods OF certain things (or even certain nations or cities), kind of modelled after Greek polytheism. In that model, the reality is that worship is extremely pragmatic; you don't worship the god of the sea if you live on a mountain a thousand miles in any direction from the coast, you worship them if you're a seafarer about to go on a trip and need a blessing. You don't worship the god of Thebes if your city is at war with Thebes, but a soldier from Thebes about to go to war with your city would also not ask for YOUR god's blessing. So a "non-worshipper" might be someone who just doesn't feel the need to ask for fortune in their dealings, or doesn't feel that their dealings particular fit the portfolios of the gods available.
>>47269326
... wouldn't denouncing critical thought require critical thought?
Unless you were told to denounce critical thought, I guess.
>>47269447
>"How Clinton Sold Our Children to Islam"
>BlessedCause . org
I think not
>>47267299
>>47269483
Pretty much yeah. Ironically enough this is pretty much the exact thing C.S.Lewis denounced in the Abolition of Man, only instead of our feeling having value and not reason, GAWD'S WARD has value, not because it is reasonable, but because it's GAWD'S WARD.
>>47269495
No, they're all about proving stuff.
None of them realise that empiricism isn't provable.
>>47269447
Poe's Law goes both ways. Sometimes people are just so crazy that it looks like it must be joking.
>>47268309
>but most I've met have problems trusting government and big pharma
No kidding. I wouldn't trust a doctor in the US one bit. And I live in Poland, where our "free" healthcare is considered abysmal. But we're not all on prescription drugs for "feeling sad sometimes".I don't mean clinical depression, I'm not retarded
>>47267327
A "gods exist, but they suck" attitude is not atheism. That's misotheism.
>>47269570
>I live in Poland
>I'm not retarded
Pick one.
>>47267576
>the difference between proving/disproving God's existence in this world is bullshit because you're trying to use Phyiscal evidence to prove/disprove the existence of a being that is beyond the Universe and our understanding.
No.
The debate has been framed that way by the religious to maintain the legitimacy of their institutions. It's politics, not metaphysics.
>>47267299
The Romans called Christians Atheists for only worshiping one God.
Could be that.
Or Atheists are insane trying to kill the Gods.
>>47269591
You lack a fundamental understanding of this thread, religions, and the way people communicate.
>>47269171
>grasping at straws this hard
Please don't, it's painful to watch you people ineptly deny reality.
>>47267664
Except that is literally against the Bible.
1 Samuel 28
>>47269647
The whole point of the Vatholic Church is to moderate the Bible.
>>47269617
And you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what counts as proof. :^)
>>47269544
Indeed. Was going to post something similar. We humans can be crazy.
>>47269591
>The debate has been framed that way by the religious to maintain the legitimacy of their institutions.
Actually it's often framed that way by atheists too. Because in the absence of any evidence that a thing exists, it's logical to assume it doesn't.
Just like you assume there aren't tiny pink elephants hiding under your floor. You don't have to pull up your floor boards to prove they aren't there.
>>47267299
I kinda liked how FFT handled it.
Atheism was a status effect and a faith stat that each character had since they started (it can be modified through skills though). The higher faith you have, magic affects you more (for both healing and damage) and your magic is more powerful.
Atheism was handled as a status ailment that made you fully immune to magic, but that included healing.
>>47269033
>>47269201
>>47269298
That's actually somewhat along the lines Abrahamic religions quite often invoke invoke in their ideas.
You are a mere mortal man, while He is your Lord and your God. There is nothing you could ever do about it, because you are merely a man. His divine Will defines the reality, separating the light from the dark and land from sea. What He wills defines what is Good, and what He despises defines what is Evil. Any attempt to defy Him can never be anything other than blind childish disobedience. You are never in any position to judge Him, because you are by definition not on equal footing - He is your Lord and your God, and you are his flock, a creating experiencing this reality for no reason other than His mercy, and therefore you can't judge Him any more than a clay pot could make any comment on it's potter's work. Your only way is accepting Him as your Lord and loving Him and having wisdom to see that He is what He is, and any wrath against Him or His creation is nothing and leads to nothing.
I mean, if we accept such a concept of divinity or divine interpretation of futility of human existence as the reality of our fiction, there's simply no other sane options left other than falling on one's knees and praying for forgiveness for one's sins and imperfections, hanging by our belief in His mercy. That is pretty much the core concept of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
Sure, one could try yo argue that after getting his home destroyed and family slaughtered, one will be more likely to rage against the heavens than pray for forgiveness, but judging by the way history shows us how Abrahamic beliefs only ever weaken in comforting and safe environments, while stress and sorrow reinforces them like HOLY SHIT - that's one really incorrect assumption.
>>47269718
It's a good thing the concept of gods is absolutely incomparable with tiny pink elephants.
>>47269791
>only ever weaken in comforting and safe environments, while stress and sorrow reinforces them like HOLY SHIT
That's not just Abrahamic beliefs, that's also slavs in general. Eastern Orthodox just combines the two for magnified effect.
>>47269791
That's pretty depressing.
>>47267299
Just because there are provably beings that claim to be gods does not necessarily mean that everyone would accept them as such. After all, not every god is likely worshipped equally everywhere. Some religions may even claim that the gods they don't worship are demons. And what is the actual difference between a god and a demon anyway? It's not farfetched to assume that at least some people would claim that there are no such thing as gods but only poweful demons who demand to be worshipped.
>>47269924
Well, for you - a comfy-living elegan/tg/entleman from the 1st world whose problems mostly stem from his own expectations and ideas.
But for the mentioned above poor sod getting fucked in all holes by things completely out of control 24/7, such conceptions can be the only accessible way of finding any adequacy in his existence and therefore - a reason to carry on living and maybe even try to do something with the tragedy that is his life.
>>47270007
That's the bit that makes it depressing.
>>47270007
>such conceptions can be the only accessible way of finding any adequacy in his existence
Perhaps not the only way, there's also vodka.
>>47270054
>implying vodka is an equalizer
>implying some men don't have higher alcohol tolerance than others
>>47267299
Knowledge is tricky. Many believers think that the existence of their God and an afterlife is provable in our setting, some do not, and some people think that the evidence in our setting is actually against the idea. All humans are fallible enough that no matter how well one thinks they have things figured out they could be wrong. Unless the God's themselves come down to earth in person can always take phenomena that one ascribes to divinity and ascribe to a different cause, or just claim that the phenomena needs no cause at all and is just a brute fact about the world. Even if the Gods come down people can still deny that they are Gods. Even if individuals go and meet the Gods, unless it is a public meeting then no one has any reason to believe them, just like in our world some people have what they think are mystical experiences, while others think that they are lying or crazy. No matter the setting the existence of the Gods is going to be contestable.
>>47267576
That isn't really a problem. "Universe" has a dual meaning, it is supposed to mean "everything that exists considered as one" - it is just an abstraction about everything that exists, in this sense God would part of the universe, as the prime part that determines everything else in it. If universe just means "that which has spatio-temporal properties considered as one" then God could be "outside" of , but that is just a matter of the creator not having the same properties as the created. Usually the proofs go like " here is something about the world" E.G. the sustenance of its "laws", the fact that change is constantly happening, causation, etc and if we really think about it then it ends up requiring that there is a being who has the properties of the monotheistic God so for this to be the case, it is the case, therefore there is a monotheistic God. It might not prove everything about their religious conception of God, but it at least puts their belief in the realm of rational plausibility.
>>47270054
Skills in pills.
>>47270054
Less so if you are a muslim or a jew. Abrahamic faiths might be good for getting you through tough times, but they're kind of no-fun a lot of the time
>>47267664
Disagreeing with the Catholic church is pretty much the POINT of protestantism. Like, the ENTIRE point.
>>47268210
>>I declare the guy renting the second floor of the house from me a god, and the second floor itself to be a plane of existence. Now I can use the ability of "ladder" to go to another plane of existence and talk to a god, in this world too!
get a virgin pregnant and you're all set
>>47270044
Eh, I don't get it. Difference in perspectives, perhaps. I find it alright that people who have enough humanity and compassion in them to be capable of seeing the process of their life as a torment can still rationalize it into something acceptable and digestible. Call it a triumph of irrational human nature over it's own horror in the face of an uncaring universe.
>>47270054
Vodka is not the rationalization - it is the Reason. The final truth that lies at the bottom of the bottle, shining so visibly when we are approaching it in the fine company of a fellow man, yet still ever absent from our memories in the morning, along with the most of the night.
>>47268045
>>47268126
Sweden also had a great debacle a few years back when people got all panicy over swineflu. The whole thing was rushed and people where encouraged to do their civil duty and take the vaccine for the good of the country. No one was forced to take the vaccine, but the mood was still such that anyone who refused was looked upon as a traitor of the nation.
Not long after several children started falling ill with narcolepsy, and it was determined that it was in fact connected to the vaccine. And soon after that it turned out that it wasn't just children, but people from every age group who had taken the vaccine who was in the risk of falling ill.
The lesson to be taken away from this is not to not get your vaccinations, however, but rather that when faced with an immediate crisis the government will always act without thinking first. It's the only thing that benefits them regardless. If nothing bad comes out of it, it's called 'we obviously did our job well', and if something bad did in fact happen, it's called 'we did all we could given the circumstances'.
>>47270142
You are not understanding what the depressing part is.
It's that someone would have to do this, not that they are able to.Not that anything you've been saying *isn't* foundationless bullshit.
>>47268214
>15 year old sources
>>47270161
>It's that someone would have to do this
Depression is not helping in any way, so it reduces and falls off like a useless atavism.
>Not that anything you've been saying *isn't* foundationless bullshit.
We're having fun and that's all that matters.
>>47269791
You
I like you. You understand a thing.
>medical discussion
While we already have the talk - anybody knows if some country in (preferably continental) Europe is already doing RISUG?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_inhibition_of_sperm_under_guidance
>>47268214
>"Hey guys! Let's make the advanced medical diagnostics and services largely unavailable to a significant percent of the population!"
>"That way, our stats look much better since people die without being diagnosed and therefore don't contribute to specific disease numbers, and since less people can even think of getting access to things like CT or advanced brain surgery we appear so much more caring and professional on the charts!"
>>47267299
>implying that if Christ himself came back and went door to door performing miracles and helping everybody talk to their dead loved ones there wouldn't still be stubborn fedoralords insisting it's all a hoax
Some people are simply entrenched in their beliefs so hard that they'll find ways to deny anything that challenges their reality. It's like how people really deep into conspiracy theories will write off anyone who disagrees with them as part of the conspiracy.
>>47270259
>"I mean, it's poor people anyway. Should've worked worked more and competed better, it's their fault they can't find a way to fit into the market environment. I managed, and so they should have. What are they, dumb?"
>>47267299
Semantics, that's why. You might be able to scientifically prove that something is real, but you can't scientifically prove that something is a god. Divinity is not a detectable physical quality that you can test for. Whether or not something is divine, whether it is worthy of prayer and worship is a subjective thing. A being could prove that they're all powerful, they could prove that they created the world, but they couldn't prove that they're god. Theologians don't just pray to god because he's powerful, they pray to him because he's divine. Power doesn't make you a god, possessing divinity makes you a god. And divinity is a concept, a mental construct. It's an opinion, basically, a value judgement.
Look at Gnosticism and the concept of the demiurge, the creator being that isn't god.
>>47270250I don't know about that, but there's some work in Germany with a switch implant - you'd probably want to be careful during foreplay though
As others have said, Dorfl from the discworld is one way it could go.
Also, I recommend Small Gods to anyone in this thread who hasn't read it
>>47267299
> Why would there be atheists in a setting with provably real gods and afterlives?
Because they can build reality-warping giant brass stompy mechas! Wait...they actually STOPPED existing because of this. Well, at least this stompy robot is actually functional.
>>47270314
>you can't scientifically prove that something is a god.
>>47267662
Hell yes. It may be somewhat dificult to study, but with enough dedication you could alter the laws of reality.
I'm pretty sure if it was a thing, everybody who could would be a wizard if they could.
Real life religions are peddling an invisible intangible force that will punish or reward us for certain conduct. Mighty immortal wizards might show up, but they aren't the kind of gods modern religions tend to be about.
Worshipping mighty immortal wizards is not like worshipping YHWH or Allah or whatever. It's like signing up for employment or benefits or whatever. It's also conceivable to defy those wizards while knowing they exist. Finally, it won't really stop anyone from preaching that above those "gods" sits supermighty real God that we should submit to without questioning. I wonder if a Greek-tier god can be converted to Christianity.
>>47270373
And those who don't might seem dumb, but in most cases really they just don't care enough, which isn't the same thing but usually has the same results.
>>47269812
They are completely analogous.
They are both things made up by people who don't know better.
>>47270367
Oh, what's that from?
>>47270313
>he thinks the game isn't rigged
>he thinks working for a living is a right
>he thinks employers don't have the power to say 'no you are not allowed to work for your daily bread' for arbitrary reasons
>>47270314
> Semantics, that's why. You might be able to scientifically prove that something is real, but you can't scientifically prove that something is a god.
You can do this though. You just need to build your own artificial God.
> Divinity is not a detectable physical quality that you can test for.
Depends on the setting.
>>47267662
Most are not that good at understanding where it comes from, but most learn how to use it.
>>47270413
Nah
>>47270367
More on that - there is no humanly conceivable difference between a reality built without any reason and one created by a reason that transcends our understanding. The concept of latter emerged earlier in human history because intelligence comprehends the reality through the means of itself.
>>47270418
Random webcomics, it's not very good, but I have a soft spot for C.Clarke paraphrasing.
>>47270424
>Not believing in the inalienable rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness
>>47269718
>Actually it's often framed that way by atheists too. Because in the absence of any evidence that a thing exists, it's logical to assume it doesn't.
That relies on the assumption that a claim's validity relies on logic and evidence, precisely the opposite of the aforementioned paradigm, which is "logic and evidence doesn't apply to God because God is too superior to be constrained by them". Some religious institutions frame the debate in the latter fashion because it seemingly protects their claims from disproof, but it actually bypasses logic altogether through the use of semantics.
>>47269812
Not in this context. One is something that you're expected to believe in for no reason, and the other is something you're expected to believe in for no reason.
>>47269288
Point of order, sir, those kids aren't playing DnD, they're playing a game from Black Dog Studios.
(Hmm...you know, I actually can't imagine Onyx Path being willing to make fun of themselves the way White Wolf could back in the day. Says a lot.)
>>47267956
>>47267968
Samefag
>>47267762
*picks up spork*
>>47267299
"These beings are obviously not gods. Otherwise there would only be one of them and I would not be alive. Hah, silly believers."
Somebody want to explain why I was called full fedora for this
>>47268492
Despite being a believer, but >>47270397
is not full fedora?
Also >>47270575
no you dullard.
>>47267299
Because the so-called "gods" are petty children unworthy of worship or respect.
Any other questions, berk?
>>47267374
Your question doesn't make any sense. (A)theism is the answer to wheter or not you believe in god(s) and (a)gnosticism is the answer to the question wheter or not you have any knowledge of the existance of the divine.
>>47269575
pff, prove to me that this "religion" exists!
>>47270739
Prove to me that you exists!
>>47267315
>>47267933
>>47268309
>>47268825
Anti-Vac was started by a Brit doctor who lied and made up information in order to make money. People believed it. Mostly thou, American actors did and went "THIS IS THE REASON FOR AUTISM!" despite, you know, TV, fast food, rock music, DnB, electronica, reality TV, video games, internet and all being around since widespread vac scenes.
Anyway, the doctor got struck off and sent to prison I think. He is the sole cause for the rise in nearly 100% eradicated conditions.
>>47270757
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
>>47270186
>>47267299
very few settings have truly omnipotent gods, so the religions are different.
>>47270132
What if he's an IVF doctor?
>>47270431
>You can do this though. You just need to build your own artificial God.
That doesn't make any sense. What?
>Depends on the setting.
Not really. It's like "detect good". Who decided that what you're detecting is good? You might be detecting something, but how do you know that it's goodness, or divinity? You can't prove that what you're detecting is divinity or goodness, because you can't prove that something is divine or good because those are subjective concepts. This is the whole reason why D&D alignments are disliked by so many. You can say that good and evil are physical cosmic forces in the setting, but that doesn't make it any easier to define good and evil, so people still get into arguments over it.
Someone can believe that radiation is divine and use a Geiger counter to detect it, but it's still just their option that what they're detecting is divine.
Divinity is like beauty. It's innately subjective. You can define beauty one way, but you cannot prove that that definition is correct. The same applies to divinity. You can detect "that which you define as divinity" but you cannot detect "that which is objectively divinity."
>>47268825
There are people with allergies to vaccines and some of the things in vaccines. Really they should be tested before they're given the vaccines instead of just shot up.but they are so rare it's not worth the cost for $1000 of lab work for every baby born when only 1/100,000 have complications
Your brother certainly could have had a seizure brought on by the injection and it could have caused permanent damage. The exception proves the rule though.
>>47270757
But anon, I don't - or at least not in a sense of absolute Reality which imparts Significance to my Existence.
When I am dead, nothing in this world or any other will be affected by the event at all. The universe does not mourn a grain of sand. Even the stars themselves wink out without any fanfare.
Therefore, the only way for me to truly Exist would be to transcend this "reality," which is as a poorly-written fan fiction of events which may not even be true. In the world that truly Exists, all things Exist and thus possess Significance by virtue of their Existence. Since I do not possess Significance, I do not Exist.Or maybe I'm just having too much fun with this thread.
>>47270471
Do you mind please giving me the name, so I can decide if it's any good for myself?
>>47270784
Then what does /tg/ count as when it claims GW has been dying for the last 15 years?
>>47270132
>get a virgin pregnant and you're all set
There's has been recorded "virgin" pregnancy in Africa recently. The tl;dr is that girl was either born deformed of sewn shut so her cunt was entirely out of question, she tried to make up for it by blowing many dudes for fun and profit. But one dude got jealous or something and stabbed her. First hit in the stomach, second in abdomen. They patched her up in the hospital just fine but because she has been gargling semen on regular basis some carried over on the knife blade and actually caught up.
>>47270866You are doing it right
>>47270826
Divinity and godhood aren't subjective concepts, they just have multiple definitions. The concept of a god or gods has appeared in countless different cultures, mythologies, and fictional works; it means any number of different things in different contexts, but in virtually any given context, it refers to something specific and distinct. A god is a particular type of being; either you are one or you aren't.
Gods are similar to a lot of fantasy creatures in that regard, such as vampires. Stories have countless variations on the concept of a vampire, differing in what they can do, what it takes to kill them, how they act, whether they are or were ever human, and even whether they drink blood. Regardless of all that, being a vampire is an objective concept; either you are one or you aren't. Unless it's a gradual change, but that only makes it as subjective as whether you have a beard.
>>47270893
Guilded Age - it's decent untilthe lab vats part
>>47270769
The only reason the doctor in question got any traction in his case was because a major medical journal published his findings because his falsified data seemed to check out. They, of course, redacted his findings when it was found out how fraudulent his study really was, but by then the damage was done and now we're having outbreaks of otherwise preventable illnesses because people believe a quack with no medical license over decades of proven science that's eradicated things that used to be the leading causes of death worldwide.
It still boggles my mind that there are parents who would willingly subject their children to polio and a plethora of other things that have long term effects instead of just giving them a perfectly safe shot to make them immune to it because they "did their research" and think that they know better than people who study this sort of thing for a living.
>>47270784
Having solid sources is good. Having timely and solid sources is better.
Presenting with sources this old would get you laughed out of the room in most places. Which is why nobody is doing it.
>>47270893
Guilded age.
>>47267299
The same reason there are people who think the moon landing is fake.
>>47267299
Because not every setting takes place in the age of information where you can go find out exactly who and what happened by pulling a sheet of metal out of your pocket, so unless the gods physically manifest for each and every PC and NPC there wouldn't be much of a way for them (assuming they're uneducated) to differentiate religious clerics and mages
Same way the Imperial Cult exists despite them not worshipping a God
>>47268214
>>47270784
meanwhile, in the modern day (or at least three years ago)
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/01/new-health-rankings-of-17-nations-us-is-dead-last/267045/
>>47271134
Also, not every PC has the omniscient knowledge of their controller
>>47267299
''Ill believe in a god when one of them comes down to me and proves they're a god'' is one possibility
''Who decided they're a god? Is any sufficiently powerful being a god? What about wizards?'' is another.
>>47267299
There probably wouldn't be athiests that just believe there are no gods unless they are stubbornly idiots. What there would be is people that believe that the "gods" are just really powerful sorcerers or wizards, or some other kind of being with extreme magical powers
>>47271152
>http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/01/new-health-rankings-of-17-nations-us-is-dead-last/267045/
Scrolling down it says plenty of those are because of violence, traffic accidents and women being crazy. I don't think any of those can be directly perceived as a failing of healthcare system.
>>47271214
It then goes on to explain that america's health care system is worse than other systems for treating all of those types of accidents, and also is worse than other health care systems for almost every disease except for stroke.
>>47271214
You drive worse and have more teenage pregnancies than the italians
You're right though, all the things you mentioned are failures of the educational system
"I may have seen a 'god,' but I've seen many illusions in my time."
>>47267299
Numerous reasons. You might claim that the gods aren't divine, that the proof for their existence is wrong, or doubt your ability to know of any such existence in the first place.
>>47267472
This would be so rad if sorcery was actually real.
>>47271214
>>47271240
I dunno man,
>"Yet even fit, nonsmoking Americans have higher disease rates than those elsewhere, the report said. "
>>47270826
> What?
A giant stompy reality-warping robot powered by concentrated denial of an entire race.
> Not really. It's like "detect good". Who decided that what you're detecting is good? You might be detecting something, but how do you know that it's goodness, or divinity? You can't prove that what you're detecting is divinity or goodness, because you can't prove that something is divine or good because those are subjective concepts. This is the whole reason why D&D alignments are disliked by so many. You can say that good and evil are physical cosmic forces in the setting, but that doesn't make it any easier to define good and evil, so people still get into arguments over it.
It depends on the setting heavily. In TES divinity is handled in a very specific way, mythic has actual power associated to it. It is not about good and evil, it is all about metaphysical significance. Theology and metaphysics can be very important in certain settings. Again, it depends heavily on your setting.
>>47271240
Man, I'm Eastern European, my country isn't even mentioned on that list.
>>47267299
Most fantasy "gods" are just a bucnh of autistic shitlords with superpowers, so calling them "gods" would be an overstatement.
>>47271537
>>47267299
This, basically.
The only reason to call anyone a god is if they make you, or bribe you.
>>47271537
Just like in real life mythology?
>>47267299
The teachings of God's of real life monotheistic religions are taking as truth because those God's are authorities. If God was just omnipotent then nothing he would say would hold weight, but because he is also omniscient the things he says are taken as truth. The gods of most dnd settings are just really powerful, not omnipotent or transcendent, and so their religions are usually just 'heres what i want'
Well for starters don't call it atheism.
And a real translation of atheism would probably rely on the guy being a kook or some kind of pedantry.
I think a better motivation is some kind of anarchist "NO GODS NO MASTERS" kind of drive.
>>47268669
>while a european vampire won't
depends. In some vampire myths they also had to count stuff like that
>>47267537
Sounds like a typical party to me
>>47267299
I had a player decide he wanted to play an atheist character in one of my games (his previous one was the world's shittiest priest). He was an unfortunate scholar who felt the gods weren't deserving of worship, as they were effectively just powerful champions of their domains who manipulated mortals to further their own ends. I don't think it ever came up during the game, so NPCs never knew. If they did they probably would have just thought he was daft and that would be that. The in-universe effect was that he had no god looking out for him, which subsequently meant it was easier for gods to use him in their machinations and was something I used to justify his previously mentioned misfortune.
>>47267299
Belief in them not as gods but big, powerful alien beings
>>47267299
Because wizards exist too and people don't consider them divine.
>>47267299
I think you dropped something.
If a person doesn't believe in a God or Gods in a fantasy setting, it might be a thing. People might believe in the forces of good and evil, balance and chaos.
>>47271022
>>47270981
Thanks.
>>47270966
If you can define it differently and there is no single correct definition, and they are all equally valid, then yes, it's subjective. That's pretty much what subjective means.
If you say Edward Cullen is a vampire, and I disagree because he doesn't fit my definition of a vampire, neither one of us is objectively right. Semantics. You can't prove he's a vampire, I can't prove he isn't. Because we're not really arguing about Edward Cullen, we're arguing about the definition of the word "vampire." And there's no way to win that argument. Semantics.
>>47272125
He just made an argument against atheism in fantasy settings. Do we drop the neckbeard meme whenever the word "atheism" is mentioned in any context at all now?
