What major change did GW to Necrons? I am relatively new to 40k universe.
They're Tomb Kings in spess
>>47218008
Presuming you know the basic lore of the necrons at the time of dawn of war, judging from the used picture, the major changes are
-no more pariahs
-the necrons are not slaves of the c'tan, instead the necrons broke the c'tan into shards and imprisoned/weaponised them
-instead of exterminating life to feed the c'tan, the necrons have the intention of rebuilding their empire to its former glory, conquer the rest of the galaxy and exterminate/enslave anyone who fights back
-the biotransference into metal bodies didn't kill off individuality the more you get up the in the hierarchy: normal warriors are almost if not completely mindless, immortals can have and follow memories/protocols of their former lives and lords can be as varied as one can imagine, from silent murderer to megalomaniac artifact collector
-more color schemes, aesthetic additions and unit types like manned vehicles
they're less terminators and more egyptian undead
They were "EXTERMINATE ALL LIVING THINGS" faction. The only interesting thing about them were hints about how they set up a setting for others.
Then, Matt Ward made them Tomb Kings in space: undead, soulless, but still willing to communicate... sometimes, when they don't feel like reclaiming the galaxy from lesser species.
I like this change. Many others don't. Skub must flow.
>>47218008
They went from Silent Invincible Murdermachines to Invincible Murdermachines with actual personality and [[YOUR DUDES|https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Your_Dudes]]
Basically they gave the terminator alot of variance and actual personality. Now you have all kinds of murdermachines walking around with actual personality and goals(Including just being silent murdermachines). This is a good thing, because it's inclusive to the concept of YOUR DUDES, so you can have your own necron lord with his goals and ambitions.
Or you can just play as Trollzyn the Tarpit Breaker(https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Trazyn_the_Infinite), and go around stealing shit for a glorious museum.
>>47218008
Old Crons
>Completely emotionless voids from top to bottom
>Serve dark gods that aren't Chaos gods but might as well be
>No transport, just teleported, arrived from Monolith portal, or burst out of the ground
The overall problem is that the changes fucked up the tone. They're too zany and muddled now.
>>47218340
I like some parts of the change, but miss elements of the previous lore. What do you say about that, smart guy?
>>47218441
Tastes differ.
>>47218499
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Because it's a perfectly reasonable statement.
>>47218405
The C'tan were/are pretty much the Gods of Order, right?
>>47218405
Completely agree. The change in tone change was jarring and ultimately weakened the Necron narrative-wise. Now it's impossible to portray the Necrons as a cosmic horror or whatever since they are pretty much too human. Also the atrocious fluff like Trazyn seems to be written to appeal to children or manchildren.
This change is what killed my faith in GW's writing and made me realize that they jumped the shark. It only got worse from here.
>>47218560
They are to Real Space what the Chaos Gods are to the Warp, but I wouldn't call them Gods of Order
>>47218303
But there are no more Tomb Kings in not-spess.
>>47218631
He will be back.
>>47218340
>They were "EXTERMINATE ALL LIVING THINGS" faction.
>>47218405
>>Completely emotionless voids from top to bottom
They really weren't.
>>47218560
No, they had no interest in any order except C'tan > you.
>>47218008
For a tl;dr version, they went from this...
>>47218697
...to this.
>>47218624
I don't know much about the 40k setting, but given how much GW lifted the concept of Chaos from Moorcock, the C'tan seem pretty much like the opposite side of the coin. Equally hostile to all life, except Gods of Order would turn all of existence into a sterile eternal stasis rather than a constantly shifting void of madness.
>>47218737
>Gods of Order would turn all of existence into a sterile eternal stasis rather than a constantly shifting void of madness
They would seal the Warp and turn the universe into a sterile soulless existence beneath their rule but they won't do it for love of Order. The mortal races beneath them will know eternal suffering.
>>47218807
>>47218801
>They would seal the Warp and turn the universe into a sterile soulless existence beneath their rule
That sounds like... the logical extreme of perfect Order.
(Order isn't "good," Chaos isn't "Bad," etc.)
Are there any authors or developers who talked about the Necron change and gave their opinions on it?
We know anons thoughts on it, Would like to see the actual developers thoughts on it. Someone should corner Ward and interrogate him.
>>47218982
Base on the fact every writer still uses newcrons it's clear they don't care
Hell both danmos and world engine make it clear the people in universe find the newcrons worst than oldcrons
Because the oldcrons did this shit because they were mindless newcrons because they're petty dicks
>>47220371
>Base on the fact every writer still uses newcrons it's clear they don't care
or that they have been paid to depict one rather than the other?
>>47218303
Necrons have literally become
> WE WUZ KANGZ
Does the change really matter? there still undying soulless skeleton robots absolutely dedicated to the annihilation of everything that isn't them.....seems Necron enough for me.
>>47218008
They teamed up with blood angels in one of the more recent edition or codexs I believe (if not some other imperium force), which would never fucking happen on either side. I think they got caught out by Nids
Pre-5th Edition Necrons were a race of mindless/soulless death machines controlled by ancient malevolent lovecraftian-like spectral beings known as C'Tan. Their goal was to harvest all life for their gods, and they were a galactic-level threat like the Tyranids. They were the antithesis to the Warp and represented raw science and the materium at its peak potential. Necrons cared nothing for mercy, honor, and had a deep seething hate of organic life encoded into them.
Post-5th Edition Necrons are a divided race of honorable warriors who engage in diplomacy, trade, mercenary work, etc. with other races and each other. They dislike being machines, and a lot of them want to be left alone. Their technology is less, they have to hack into the Webway for FTL travel. They are a fairly minor threat relegated to destroying systems in surprise attacks every so often. The C'tan are their enslaved weapons. A lot of them have eccentricities such as collecting things or searching for worthy opponents.
>>47223639
so they traded power levels for potential to be more interesting
>>47218737
>dunno much
Oh boy, here we go ...
>GW lifted the concept of Chaos from Moorcock
This meme is kill. Ansell suggested it in the 80s, but Priestley said, "We can do better." And did.
>>47223874
>more interesting
I remember it as being more shitting on vet players to sell Cron Air to the "latest crop od 13yos." But those 13yos now tell us it was because cranky old men moaning about their lost glories was "much needed character." Which brings to /tg/'s loyal GWIDF contingent.
>>47218982
Well, the actual Newcron designers' notes dodged the subject completely. The sculptors discussed their work on the minis, and Mat Ward talked a bit about the new rules, but in terms of background there was just the pic-related synopsis of their codex origin story, some dynasty fluff (slightly expanded from the codex versions) and a colour version of the Sautekh Dynasty hierarchy chart. New toys aside, the policy was obviously to act as though the Necrons had always been what they were now.
This was in stark contrast to the Oldcron release, where the whole team got together and acknowledged - indeed, explained - that the fluff in the then-new codex represented a pretty major shakeup of the setting, as well as going through the Necrons' roots, and the reasoning and decisions behind how the various aspects of the army developed (including, of course, the evolution of the C'tan from the single throwaway line that had originally spawned them).
Or even Ward's own Grey Knight design notes earlier in the same year as Newcrons, in which he touched on the history of the Grey Knights' fluff until that point and went over the themes he wanted to tackle in their new book. Or the Dark Eldar release shortly before GK, where Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin really went in depth, both in White Dwarf and online, as the revamp of the army had clearly been a labour of love for both of them. Even the second DE release wave - between GK and Newcrons - was accompanied by detailed designers' notes, despite the release itself only being new models for units that lacked them.
Which brings me smoothly to this:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t3551-feedback-from-dark-eldar-seminar
Mainly focused on DE obviously, but the Necron part still says a lot more than WD did.
>Jes Goodwin's remark about Chaos
>>47226904
>So I went to the 40k open day at warhammer world on Saturday, and sat in on the seminars on developing both the dark eldar and necron codexes. Very different styles from the people involved, first was obviously Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin (top blokes, I was fourth into the room and Phil Kelly spoke to me straight away, he was really relaxed and down to earth, he even recognised me later on in the day) and the second was Mat Ward, Dale Stringer and Tom Walton. I won't go into that one too much, but suffice to say that the two atmospheres were very different. I was really intrigued to note though that Mat Ward when talking about their work on the Necrons said he viewed the Dark Eldar codex and the development of the background and balance as their goal to aim for when working on those elements of the necron codex.
[...]
>I didn't take too many notes from the necron forum (they're more of a future project for me once I've finished my DE), most of what I wrote down related to the design themes running through the range like the spherical power sources, coffin shaped elements, crescents and exposed spines, along with the separation of the vehicles like the ghost ark/annihilation barge etc from the automatons such as the tomb spyders/wraiths.
>In particular this was picked out as being that the necrons don't want to become part of the machine, they actually want their souls back (destroyers being the exception) and so they're seeking to retain their separation from their machines. Mat Ward did highlight at that point though that just because they want their souls back doesn't mean they want to be flesh and blood again, metal bodies have their advantages!
>>47226918
>He also said that this evolution of the book was trying to focus on the necrons rather than the C'tan. He wasn't too happy that previously when you saw necron forces they were either nightbringer or deceiver-led (Not sure if they were the only hq choices, didn't have the previous codex) so tried to introduce necron characters to allow a force to be tailored to the person collecting it rather than a pre-defined 'personality'.
>I have to say, whilst I could see where Mat Ward was coming from with his answers, i didn't feel he was quite as down to earth as Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin. It could just be that the necron codex needed a bit more out of the box thinking than DE to get a background that worked, but i got the feeling that his style is to be more 'way out' than Phil Kelly right from the off.
>>47218008
>I am relatively new to 40k universe.
Then none that matter at all to you, stop shit posting and play what you like.
>>47218405
>no transport, just teleported
More than anything, the Necrons using the webway bugs me. I fucking loved that everyone was horrified by the Necrons Dune-style flying around everywhere.
>>47218008
They made their miniatures look retarded.
Seriously pedals?
Oldcrons were Order. They were the antithesis of Chaos, trying to separate the immaterium from the materium.
Newcrons are pharaoh dynasties working towards eccentric goals.
>>47227324
I'm fairly sure that they retconned the necrons using the webway, their was no mention of the webway in the 7e codex so hopefully that is the case
>>47220371
>Hell both danmos and world engine make it clear the people in universe find the newcrons worst than oldcrons
They don't. You didn't read those books. The Astral Knights were comforted by the fact that Newcrons were infighting retards with a clear ledership structure and that could be exploited.
Anyways, McNeil voiced his disagreement with the change.
>>47228478
Actually, the Dolmen Gates are mentioned in the first pages of the 7th ED codex.
>>47226931
So this pretty much confirms that Matt Ward alone is to blame for all of this.
>>47218379
May I point out that previous Necron players were pretty fine with the fact that they played alien Skynet ?
They wanted to indroduce a robotic Tomb Kings in Space faction ? They could have created a new alien race, used Iron men IA clusters, AdMech corrupted by the void dragon, cyberfetishist DEldars, and so on ; the result wold be the same, but it wouldn't have removed the Oldcrons.
Problem with that change is, you can't have mysterious murdermachines and give them human goals. The second element weakens the first one considerably.
>but there still some dynasties that are nothing but murdermachines serving C'Tan (shards).
"Well hello, relatively friendly Cryptek, would you mind giving us a few pointers on how to defeat that dynasty that threatesn us all?" "But of course, inferior meatbag"
That's not cosmic horror anymore.
Essentially, it's the same as getting a an additional bro-tier Chaos god that hangs out with people sometimes, or a reasonable tyranid queen. The threat potential of the entire group is greatly reduced.
Besides, they've removed the alien aspect entirely. The worst is that they could have introduced a "your dudes" element and keep some strangeness if they were collectives or only the Overlord had an (alien) personality. But instead they gave us Versailles in space (and pimp characters that clash a bit with the sleek aesthetics of the previous codex, but that's a different issue). And we already have a ton of factions with court intrigues in 40k.
Also, if we ignore direction entirely, newcron fluff is simply badly written .Original tomb kings stories were way more engaging most of the time. I've yet to see the newcron equivalent of the stuggles for power in Nehekhara, or "my lord once loved".
>>47229201
This. A thousand times and one this.
>>47229201
>I've yet to see the newcron equivalent of the stuggles for power in Nehekhara, or "my lord once loved".
You mean like this?
>>47218008
They are now 80's Saturday morning cartoon villains. Think robo Mumm-ra and Skeletor bickering between each other in space rather than mysterious robo The Others/White Walkers coming along and killing all life.
>>47218405
>>47218593
Whatever tone the Necrons had was pretty poorly handled.
It was hard to be scared or treat them like cosmic horrors when you knew so much about them and what their ultimate goals were.
If the aforementioned is what you wanted the Necrons to be than they would have been better off never becoming an army in the first place.
>>47222396
Except for the numerous times when the Imperium has allied with the Eldar or Tau in face of a common threat.
>>47226337
>This meme is kill. Ansell suggested it in the 80s, but Priestley said, "We can do better." And did.
Read one of the interviews he did relatively recently, he says nothing about any thoughts that they could do better and rather that the original Chaos lore had to be changed in places because it was too obviously similar to Moorcock.
>>47218008
They talk now
>>47229490
>It was hard to be scared or treat them like cosmic horrors when you knew so much about them and what their ultimate goals were.
Not really.
We know what the Tyranids ultimate goal in the galaxy is and yet they are easily portrayed as a cosmic horror. The fact we knew the Necron designs for the galaxy didn't take away from their scare factor. It was their inhumanity and their methods of pursuing their goals that made them scary.
>>47229579
To be honest I don't find the Tyranids to really be scary either. But that is fine because they have other things going for them such as their looks, being the only bio-organic faction in the game, their adaptability, the Genestealer aspect, etc.
The old Necrons had none of this because they looked boring and had no real lore of their own, the majority of it was dedicated to the C'tan and people bumbling around trying to figure out the plan that the reader already knew about. The Egyptian aesthetic was even half-assed, being present in a few units and that is it.
Necrons really come off as the one army that never should have been in their old or new states. The AI or Chaos Android aspects would have possibly served them better.
>>47229376
Those characters don't strike me as particularly deep, intelligent, or memorable. Which is what I expect of immemorial alien rulers.
And I'm pretty sure there is an old Dark Eldar story that went pretty much like this, apart from the desillusional robot part.
>>47228267
This. Necron vehicles having actual pilots was the worst design mistake ever. Also why have fucking transport ships when you can teleport everything?
In my headcanon they don't exist and our local Necron player is an old Grognard anyway that mostly plays with pre-retcon minis.
>>47229792
>Also why have fucking transport ships when you can teleport everything?
What transport ships do the Necrons really have?
Their one flyer makes use of teleportation, the Monolith makes use of teleportation, the Ark is more of a repair vehicles than it is a transport.
>>47229771
What about this?
>>47229877
I preferred the old tone, but I definitely see how it needed a shake up.
The old lore didn't lend itself well to collecting an army of miniatures.
There wasn't much of a way to really personalise your models and make characters, as they were essentially characterless- aside from the C'tan.
Newcrons went the route of redefining Necrons to give them personality and a sense of ownership. So you can make your lord with his own dynasty and colour scheme etc and it would all have it's internal logic.
But the mystery, alienation and monstrosity is gone now. People say they're Space Tomb Kings but to me they seem more like Space Bretonnians.
I would have preferred they took the route of redefining C'tan to lend personality and customisation. The first codex talked about an entire race of C'tan, thousands if not millions of gigantic energy vampires. I always thought these guys were the soul of the Necron character.
It was the C'tan that had personal ambition and individual goals, so they had a reason to differentiate themselves.
You could have courts of backstabbing C'tan, constantly plotting to cannibalise one another, weaker C'tan forming duplicitous alliances merely to prevent themselves from getting consumed by the more powerful.
Rules-wise your C'tan would have upgrades that would serve to define their powers and the model kit could have all these different options like the newer Daemon Prince.
