What can a chapter of marines actually do?
I mean depending on what you read, they can conquer an entire planet, an entire solar system by themselves?
Marines are tough sure, but they still die. Surely over the course of trying to take an entire planet, they'd be whittled down to almost nothing even by rudimentary defences.
How do 1000 marines take an entire planet? It seems tactically infoesible. Are we to assume the Space Marines are always the tip of the sword, usually followed up by a few million guardsmen who do all the actual fighting?
In terms of scale alone, it seems impossible for 1000 Marines to conquer a planet. Planets are fucking big. If a Planet has more than a dozen population centres, then that's less than a company to deal with each one, assuming they strike them all at once.
Marines are tough and all, no one doubts that, but if they're fighting an entire planet, surely they're outnumbered millions to one in that case? Artillery can kill a Marine as easily as a Guardsman, it's a huge explosive shell. An entire planet's worth of artillery would, over the course of an invasion, fucking annihilate Marines eventually.
How on earth do 1000 of these guys take a planet?
>>47182805
... I was going to tell you to fuck off OP but yeah actually thats a good point. A chapter has maybe 50 armoured vehicles at best. The average planet would probably have a few thousand or more. How DOES a chapter subjugate a planet of billions of people?
>>47182805
They'd nuke it.
>>47182805
>>47182846
Well they wouldn't be fighting the entire planet's forces at once. Planets are huge, so the enemy is spread out across a massive area. In any area where the Marines operate, they are a dramatically superior force. They would probably avoid engaging massed enemy forces for that very reason.
This does bring up a good point though. Conquering a planet might take decades. Suicide bombers could probably take out a marine or two if they got lucky. Booby traps, mines... I don't see how a Chapter could sustain itself over a long-term campaign. Even if they lost only one Marine a day across that entire planet, after three years thats the chapter wiped out. Sure the chapter's home could send reinforcements, train new troops with what they left behind, but Marines seem very poorly equipped for any kind of battle of attrition.
I don't see any way a Chapter could take a planet by itself intact. They could bombard it, glass it, virus bomb it sure, but then you haven't really taken the planet, that's just exterminatus.
>>47182805
Not much.
GW has zero concept of scale. They think that an army of a couple million guardsman is a lot, enough for multiple planetary assaults.
China, a single country, has 3 million people in the army.
Remember there are only 1 million space marines in the entire galaxy. The entire galaxy has as many space marines as there are people living in San Jose. That is beyond retarded.
>>47183065
damn, when you put it like that, the guardsman forces should be a few trillion just for one or two planets
>>47183229
>a few trillion just for one or two planets
GW isn't the only one with no sense of scale
If they're fighting planetary defence forces and militia, the main opponents on most planetary insurrections they're crushing, fluff wise they just murder anyone who gets in their way to killing the rebellious governor. 100:1 kill ratios would be a low expectation. Militias and defence forces aren't able to handle that level of casualties, especially at that speed, moral collapses, resistance splinters to be hunted down later, organized control of the rebellions falls apart. Done.
Doesn't make much sense unless they're super powered to the point where a human killing a space marine is both unthinkable and almost impossible. But that's the premise. 40k doesn't work like real world things, comparing it to that is the path to madness.
>>47182805
Provided they've got a stable supply line I think it's plausible. Space Marines are fucking insanely overpowered, and you pretty much need artillery to put them down. But then they're also mobile and tactically aware so actually getting the bead on them isn't easy either.
Inb4 Space marine wank, but the only two explanations are that Space marines are so much more broken in the lore than they are on the tabletop or even in the books, and that it's a fantasy universe so whatever Geedubs says goes.
>>47183675
>Doesn't make much sense unless they're super powered to the point where a human killing a space marine is both unthinkable and almost impossible.
Which is pretty much the case in the lore.
There's a reason they make movie marines lists - because in fluff a single Space Marines are presented as more able than 10,000 imperial guardsmen. Capable, strong, ludicrously resistant, accurate, tough, intelligent, well armed and armoured.
It's not like a good soldier walking into your city. It's like Thor with military weapons and training. 1000 of those, I can see taking over a planet.
Seriously, the movie marine lists where you field a squad of 7-10 marines for 1,500 points sum it up.
Of course, every faction's fluff makes them out to be the ultimate badass, killing marines left and right, but we'll leave it at that.
>>47183854
By Thor I meant the Hulk. Slightly less super-powered, about the same not caring and fighting forever.
>>47182805
I've always seen most of the fluff as propaganda. Marines aren't soldiers, they're special forces. You don't send SAS or Seals to dig in and defend against a city, you send them into accomplish strategically important goals which significantly weaken an opponent.
In most cases of a rebellious planet, the rebellion is centered around a corrupt leader and military coup. Knock out the leadership, install a friendly new governor and encourage a slash and burn mentality of red guard-style faith-militants that enact a sweeping inquisition of leadership.
Most of the work can be done losing just a few men and a vehicle if power is centralized.
>>47182805
>Surely over the course of trying to take an entire planet, they'd be whittled down to almost nothing even by rudimentary defences.
they show up, kill everyone and then eat their families
>surely they're outnumbered millions to one in that case?
space marines aren't considered "second only to exterminatus" without reason, bro
>>47182805
Well, Space Marines don't fight fair.
Imagine a backwater Imperial Guard recruitment world goes renegade and renounces the Imperium. The world is full of soldiers in various stages of training, from fresh recruits to ready soldiers and some veterans. Most of them have only heard about Astartes in legends, let alone seen one for real.
After a few months the outer solar system scout ships and satellites start going radio silent without explanation. Then without warning the most heavily armoured and armed ships anyone on the planet has ever seen start assaulting the orbital defense platforms while launching drop pods and drop ships at the across a good chunk of the planet.
Suddenly the soldiers stationed around the planet are first crushed and disorientated by two-story steel pod. Before the dust has begun to settle the doors blow open and out charges a dozen armoured giants, each standing chest and shoulders taller than the tallest guy in the platoon. Before the sergeant has shouted his first order he's been disemboweled and blown up. The entire platoon is dead before they had the chance to fire a single shot, let alone call in artillery.
The same thing happens across the planet, and nobody is getting orders from High Command, because one of those pods landed on it. A few veteran officers have begun taking in survivors and fortifying their position, but any kind of long-range communication outside of signal flags just come back as static since every frequency is jammed.
Then one by one these strongholds are reduced to rubble either by artillery or heavy assault with Land Raiders and Terminators. In the end what's left of the planets hierarchy either surrender or are left behind once the Astartes deem the planet neutralized.
Basically, a Space Marine attack wouldn't consist of massed battles. It'd be multiple simultaneous surgical strikes to remove any semblance of command structure and then mopping up the ragtag resistance. For the Emperor.
>>47184348
Okay, but even if they combat squad-ed, surely thats a maximum of like 200 drop pods at most? For an entire planet? There's more than 200 communication/command/supply/artillery hubs on a planet.
How do they strike them all at once? They might be able to strike 1% of the planet's defences... what about the other 99%?
>>47184391
>at once
they don't need to? space marines have every advantage in a planetary assault, and can pick and choose what they want to annihilate, even in a straight fight.
How are the garrisons in europe going to react to the ones in south america being completely destroyed? They've got a mere handful of hours before the space marines return to orbit via thunderhawks and strike again.
Numbers are obviously meaningless. Each squad is perfectly capable of depopulating an entire city with their hands tied behind their backs. Because these aren't tabletop abstraction marines, they're fluff marines.
>>47184391
Why would the attack the defenses? Eliminate communication and the High Command and you've got every opportunity to slice out the remaining resistance before they can regroup and establish new command structures.
Raven Guard do it to Ork-infested planets. They stay in the shadows for weeks, and when a new Warboss starts gaining control, they assassinate him and keep waiting. It wouldn't be the same for a human world, because they probably won't be fighting amongst themselves for control, but the same tactics apply. To put it in overused words, kill the head of the snake and the body dies, no matter how big it's guns are.
>>47184573
>Why would the attack the defenses?
That should've said "Why would they", obviously.
Even if you assume space marines are as op as the fluff presents them, 1000 people, no matter how strong, can control an entire planet. I think they just kill all the important leader types and fuck up critical defenses and let plebes like the IG handle all the actual conquering after they soften the planet up.
How I have seen that Astares are Space Rhodesian from combat perspective.
Rhodesians mastered their heliborne operating in which small company sized element manouvered and crushed local rebel troops with air strikes and basically blitzkrieg tactics. Rebels would react too slow and they would be routed. Then we add few raids like Operation Eland and you realize that Rhodesian way of fighting and beakiea are surprisingly similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dingo
A thing to remember is that most worlds throughout the 40k setting are not like modern day earth; for a human world there will be some sort of planetary government with the population focused in a couple of key points. With advanced scanning and relitivly easy orbital flight there is no need for a population to spread across a planet like we have; if a planet is self contained like modern earth that may be different but even now there are a select couple of key targets (Moscow, London, Washington etc). Marines dont need to hold land, they dont need supply routes, they dont have any points to counter attack.
One of the key differences between a marine force and a modern army is its ability to stay out on the feild fighting. Marines dont need to sleep , they dont need to eat or dispose of waste, they can run nearly twice as fast then the average human for days and only be a little fatigued; if they run out of the significant ammo reserves they carry for the firearms, each one can punch as strong as a sledgehammer blow; and finally they dont get shaken by war, even the hardest soilders of modern day get screwed by constant fighting but not a marine; when there is a full chapter and the support that brings to each marine, then they are near unstoppable.
Then there is the effect on the defence; sustained fire or anti-armour weaponry will take down a marine, but only if you can hit them; marines are notable for being supprisingly quick despite their size.
How do you think it would feel to be under sustained grenade fire while a slab of flesh and metal the size of a car chared towards you quicker then you could even imagine.
>>47183318
>a few trillion for two planets is no sense of scale
>despite the fact that each hive world has upwards of 20 hive cities with upwards of 100 billion people in each city
good one son, you sure showed him.
>>47184831
>100 Billion people in each city
That's one of the biggest offenders for retarded scale I've ever seen, also:
>Sending a military force with equal numbers to the civilian population
>Having his terrible a sense of practical scale
>>47182805
A Chapter of Marines can't conqueror very much on their own. Indeed, that's the point in the 1000 marine limit the codex astartes laid down: to prevent ever again one man having the power to subjugate the Imperium.
What they CAN do (as others in this thread have shown) is "liberate" a planet from whoever is currently controlling it. They do this by systematically destroying the enemy's command structure and strong points in a series of lightning raids, leaving the defenders unorganised and ready to surrender to any other Imperial force.
>>47184771
We must make Adeptus Rhodesius.
How many points is that?
>>47184348
Good explanation. When you put it like that, the SM are fucking terrifying.
>>47183229
>>47183065
My ballpark estimate puts the population of the Imperium of Man is 7,000,000,000,000,000. There is roughly a million inhabited recorded worlds. Some much higher population than earth, some much lower. Let us put a guess that the average population if about modern earth.
A militaristic culture like the imperium should be able to field and support a military is about 12%, the amount similar to the US during WWII.
So.... that puts the number of humans in the military at 8*10^14. This is between the Auxilia Myrmidon, Centurio Ordinatus, Collegia Titanica, Ordo Reductor, Skitarii, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, Adeptus Astartes, Legio Cybernetica, Adepta Sororitas, Adeptus Custodes, Adeptus Arbites, The Inquisition, Rogue Traders, & Planetary Defense Forces.
>>47185058
100 billion inhabitants isn't that uncommon, though then we're talking planet-wide. Ichar IV has 500 billion people for example.
>>47183909
I was just about to bring this excerpt up. The point about Space Marines is that 99.9% of people fighting in a war don't see them. They're very poorly represented in Warhammer 40k compared to the fluff and other games like Epic where while Space Marines are tough on paper they're quite unforgiving to play as unless you do it right. They're the scalpel's edge, the razor sharp point, surgically cutting tendons and nerves, slicing their way around muscle and bone.
>>47185058
>>47186247
London is policed by the Met and the City of London Police. That's less than 50,000 people policing nearly 10 million people.
Add in how scary space marines are which, for most people, only exist in myths and legends as avenging angels, symbols of the Emperor's will made manifest, and you've got hella intimidation factor.
>>47186299
well, until you bring a thunderhawk at least
thunderhawks in epic do not mess around
>>47184771
You are exactly right, anon. Space marines use spec ops tactics, as exemplified by the Rhodesians.
>>47182805
This is the biggest thing I hate about Space Marines, besides the fact that the game has just become "Space Marines: The Setting."' Every time I hear about a fucking 1,000-man strong chapter taking out a fucking PLANET I roll my eyes and pray to Nurgle that a sci-fi writer gets anal warts.
Astartesfags, please don't even attempt to defend this shit or act like they "just hit one spot after another" or they "ARE JUST THAT BADDASS THAT THEY LITERALLY PUNCH CONTINENTS APART" because everything about the space marines is completely retarded garbage.
>>47187500
>Disregarding the fluff this badly
Space Marines are litterally hit-and-runners in 40k. They don't fight massed battles most of the time because that's a good way to get yourself wiped out.
>>47187500
> the game has just become "Space Marines: The Setting."
Space marines were literally the first plastic kit made for 40k, well before you crawled onto this planet.
It has ALWAYS been "Space Marines: The Setting"
Blitzkrieg. Modern large-scale warfare is about concentrating force against an enemy's weakest point, pushing through that point, then circling about and enveloping the enemy's line.
Most of the Germans' problems were logistical, that's not a problem when you can drop stuff in from space and you have satellite comms.
Even assuming no deep strike:
Find the weak point in the enemy line and punch through it with heavy armor.
Armor pushes ahead to disrupt HQ and cut off supply lines. Mehrens move forward and circle around, enveloping pockets of troops.
Hold them in the pockets and have a fap while you shoot down any airborne supply runs.
Once they're out of ammo and eating rats, imperial guard advances and exterminates them.
Meanwhile the marines are already somewhere else.
With deep striking it's even easier. Drop a couple tac squads on the enemy HQ. Glass their capital city with prow lances or pulverize them into a ten year winter with constant macrobattery barrages.
Honestly, protracted ground warfare isn't very realistic in a world with orbital WMDs, it's mostly there for fun, so don't think too hard about it.
It's like the space battles in Star Wars. Just make it world war 2 with lasers and robots.
>>47187837
To finish what I forgot to say, the old IG rulebook put it best. Space Marines are a scalpel, IG is the hammer.
Space Marines don't take a planet on their own any more than you kill a guy with a scalpel.
Space Marines run in and cut his ankle, then when he falls down the IG smashes his head like Gallagher.
Thats how it goes down.
>>47182805
So I havent read the fluff, but I'd interpret the statement as 'they make the difference between losing and winning, our that even just PDF troops behind them can win a planet of a chapter of space marines are present.
Obviously, fanboy sci fi writers take the statement literally in the way that hardcore religious nuts take bible passages literally, but I don't think they intended it to be that way.
>>47182805
>taking 40k seriously
Come on, a muhreene can be taken out by a shitpicker with a stick crunch-wise.
Not all planets are hive worlds entirely dedicated to fight to the death against the invading Space Marines.
imagine fuedal planet. A bunch of decentralized peasants armed with spears and crude muskets could feasibly fall to a single squad of Marines given enough time.
>>47183065
>Remember there are only 1 million space marines in the entire galaxy.
Pretty sure there's fewer than a thousand chapters. Do we know the average number of chapters per founding?
>>47188222
There were apparently around 199,000 SMs at the time of the Scouring, so probably around 150 chapters by the time of the second founding? Of course, there have been a whole bunch of foundings since then, and the numbers of new chapters from each one is pretty much arbitrary, and chapters get wiped now and again
>>47188222
>>47188299
According to Lex there are about 250 named loyalist chapters, which doesn't include all of the Second Founding chapters, because I believe a bunch of those are unnamed
>>47188222
There were a thousand second founding chapters. New foundings happen when a few dozen chapters get wiped out. Later on they tried to make another massive founding but nearly all of them went to chaos.
>>47182805
Let's flip the question around for a minute.
You are a treasonous planetary governor. You and your friends have decided to stop paying the Tithe and secede from the Imperium. Perhaps you're near Tau space and bought the propaganda. At any rate you're not a Forgeworld or a bastion or anything galactically important, so you figure you'll have a while before the Imperium bothers with you.
Then a Rogue Trader mentions in passing that he won't be visiting again for a while. You ask him why, and he tells you he heard a rumour that a space-wandering Chapter of marines is in the vicinity, and he doesn't think it's prudent to associate with you in the near future. You investigate the rumours further, and discover that your worst fears are true: they're coming for you. Worse still, your erstwhile allies in the Tau/Eldar/whoever are very reluctant to give any aid.
How do you defend against them?
You're not somewhere massively important, so your space defences are mediocre at best. Space Marine Strike Cruisers and Battlebarges are specifically designed to punch through those defences at close quarters, and deliver Marines wherever in the system they want to go. Sure, they'd lose in a direct fight with a true Imperial Navy flotilla, but their tactics are all around avoiding exactly that kind of situation.
So, how do you prepare your planetary defences?
What stronghold can be built, that sudden space-marines from the sky/teleporting/infiltrating can't take out?
What training or equipment can you give your troops that will let them fight marines in close quarters and win?
How will you convince them to die for you, when confronted by a literal manifestation of God's Wrath?
If you answered "Turn to the Ruinous powers" to any or all of the above, you now understand 40k slightly more.
>>47187883
I love this mental image! Sneaky git marine creeps up behind baddie, giggles, slits achilles tendon and runs off laughing while a grinning gallagher guard sidles up with his hammer yellling: "SLEDGE-O-MATIC!!!"
<SQUISH>
>>47188450
No. Just no. Ultras had maybe 26 second founding chapters, and that was the most of all the legions. Rumor says Dark Angels had 12 ff successors, so using that as a base would give us 122 ff chapters (8*12+26) - not close to 1000.
>>47188623
Nicely put.
>>47189441
And all of the legions involved in the Drop Site Massacre had barely any second founding chapters. The Ultramarines were easily the largest legion at the end of the Heresy
>>47189658
Plus i don't think the space yiffs had any offshoot chapters
>>47189860
They had a couple, but they failed. For some reason, space yiff gene-seed only works on Fenris (or perhaps on Fenrisians).
>>47188222
From the actual space marine codex Roughly 1000 chapters according to the codex
>>47190232
I forgot to delete the first half of that sentence, disgusting
