Crouching Autist, Hidden Edition
>Rules databases
https://mega.co.nz/#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ
https://kat.cr/warhammer-40k-pdf-library-t9575373.html
>FAQs
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Rules-Errata
>40k 7th edition quick reference sheet(s)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4104995/Games/7edRef_V7.pdf
>Forgeworld Book index
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Forge_World_and_Apocalypse_Rules_Index
>White Dwarves
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/tx4hcy4u487pv/WD
>Novels (Working link as of 02/02/2016)
https://mega.nz/#F!wx4BiKhD!YhnAf1BqSmAB8dO6xDM56Q
Tfw no one to play with.
2nd for Orks are the rightful owners of the galaxy
My hands always shake when I paint, it makes things like outlining, etc. really difficult. Any advice?
>>47176156
Steady your hand against something. If your holding the model don't grip too hard.
And just keep practicing. Over and over and over. The key is PROGRESS expecting immediate perfection will kill you desire to paint as that shit just doesn't magically happen
>>47176156
As somebody with Shaky Hand Syndrome as well, I sincerely recommend hand exercises. Building up muscles in your hands will go a long way to helping your shakes.
Also, cut out caffeine and sugar if you can, or at least scale it back.
...
>>47176049
Best OP picture in years.
>>47176637
thats some nice scenery
>>47176637
Whats Poptart stuff
>>47176114
seconded
>>47176114
>>47176662
Looks like we have a hookup thread. You must now exchange Emails and addresses and do a batrap+porno
>>47176641
>bland general pic
>has the chicken
it will trigger autists for sure!
>>47176543
Agreed on the coffee, swap it out for tea or something does make a difference.
How do you guys think pic related are best equipped points wise ?
>>47176599
>True enough, but don't all chapters board Space Hulks?
of course
But that's not really what you think about when you're making a video game version of an extremely beloved board game. They COULD have done a deathwatch dealie or whatever, custom chapter they wanted, but you need to remember the guys making it likely played Deathwing and Genestealer as kids. Maybe even played the ooold space hulk game on the Amiga.
>>47176694
>impressive
Welp I can't help with that, I paint like a novice to say the least.
You can just google Armies on Parade and probably find a ton
>>47176156
Rest on hand on the other while you paint. While holding the model with your left hand, extend a finger or just use your palm. Then, with your right hand, extend your pinky to connect with your left hand and and use it as a resting/stabilizing point. Then, paint using whatever technique you want. There is also this trick if you are interested with rubber bands but be carefull not to do it too long, it will cut off the circulation in your hand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvLQZ1cMX3I
>>47176154
This game is still a thing? I thought it got shitcanned more than a year ago.
>>47176156
Have your elbows both resting on your work surface. With smaller pieces, press the heels of your palms together while you paint. Really helps to keep em steady.
>>47176820
Yeah when games stop being developed you can still play them. Who would have known
>>47176729
Yeah, it makes sense for a 'story' point of view, more ease of maxing it coherent or interesting instead of "purge X".
>>47176589
Stygies VIII if I had to do a established one. I like their xeno tech interest. I also like how the Inquisition wants to Exterminatus them, but can't, due to their essentialness. So they send dozens of Deathwatch down there to blow heads off rogue people. Yet the Inquisition also likes Stygies VIII as they produce interesting research and weapons. I think it was they who set space on fire in Damocles.
But I'd be tempted to make my own Forge World. One similar to Stygies VIII in interest in xeno tech. But perhaps with Red, Black, White and Purple. If I could find a decent web 'painter' I would.
I also plan to build the entire Blood Angels chapter one day. 50+ Thunderhawks and all.
>>47176844
>>47176820
Far as I know, it's still in slow slow slow mega slow development.
>tfw never finished
>tfw The Lord Inquisitor will never be finished
Suffering.
>>47176844
Don't be a dick, I was just asking in hopes that I was wrong about it being discontinued.
>>47176637
>he finks he's a sneeky git
Ya a silly grot.
>>47176889
sneaky enough to get into your mums bed
>>47176679
>>47176641
I just wish the fight never started desu. The old pic was easier for me to spot when trawling the catalogue. The last thread didn't have 40k as it's title so I wouldn't have found it as quickly without the image.
Just wish the autism fight never started ;_; I don't like change.
>>47176905
Daddy?
>>47176855
Aye. The Xenarites of Stygies VIII are really interesting to me. I love the Black trenchcoat on red armor look they have going as well.
Hey guise, wuts going on in dis fred?
Possibly a stupid question but:
Are Immortal gauss rods the same dimensions as the Warriors?
>>47177057
Yeah, they just come with four, I believe.
>>47177057
The older ones were, yes. The current ones do not use gauss rods.
>>47177088
So if I wanted to change the rods out, how would I go about doing it?
>>47177124
Forget that actually. Just looked at a gauss blaster and noticed they weren't clear. Seems like I'm alright.
I have a problem.
I absolutely love the Tau battlesuits and mechs and all that.
I hate how the tau race itself looks like.
Could I make an all-battlesuit army that isn't WAAC-faggish or anything like that, and could be used in Killteam/HoR?
>>47177003
I also wanted to do my OCDONUTSTEEL SoB Order. But I can't. Not with those models. Sorry GW, even if they were great models, they're the most expensive shit they have. 10 models is 20 marines.
>>47177185
>I hate how the tau race itself looks like.
even the guys wearing full helmets?
>>47177185
Holy shit. Are you me? I hate the fishfaced fucks, but I love their suits. I also hate their tanks and aircraft. Hammerhead and Skyray are bearable, but the others are meeeh.
I've wanted to do what you're doing. I can't remember how good all suit armies are, or if they're even doable. Sure they are.
>>47177185
I hate how the tau fit into the 40k universe. Please remove them and put them into some other gundam space universe.
>>47177185
See >>47177222 I agree with this guy though >>47177207 Fire Warriors with Helmets = Amazing. I love Fire Warriors suits. I just don't like FishFaced Slit bastards.
>>47177207
Eh, they're fine. Mostly the unarmored ethereals(?). I'll get over it probably.
>>47177222
Trips+dubs say that I am, indeed you.
>>47177185
I got wrecked by a crisis suit kill team at a local kill team night. I don't think it was cheesey or anything I just had a very lackluster team.It was the contents of one box of CSM with no Rhino.
>>47177291
>chaos
That explains it. Get a plastic missile launcher from the tactical marines or betrayal at calth marines.
Hey guys, returning to 40k here. I have a SM army, a guard army and a Tau army (all built for 5th ed). What would your current power rankings look like with current editions/codeces? My friend who convinced me to start playing again says SM are way OP. Is he right?
>>47176906
It's not autism. It's idjits trying to start up unnecessary fights.
So how do I expand my AdMech force from here? I want to be able to do more than War Convo, now that I can:
2x Dominus
3 Grav-Destroyers
3 Arc-Breachers
20 Vanguard (4 plasma)
10 Rangers (3 Arc)
5 Claw-and-blade Ruststalkers
5 Taser-Infiltrators
1 Lascannon Chickenwalker
2 Onagers with Neutron Lasers
1 Knight Errant with optional Icarus Gun
>>47177356
Both SM and Tau can be built extremely strong. Space Marine have so many formations, wargear and units available there is no surprise that they can become one of the strongest armies.
>>47177356
Tau and Spacemarines (Certain chapters) are the meta right now and are the second most op armies right under Eldar (The most OP). Guard is set right in the middle of the meta. They will shitstomp any low tier codex like orks/chaos/deldar/nids/etc... but are lackluster against the tau/SM/Eldar/Necrons
>>47177391
>>47177393
So how do fliers and super-heavies work into the current rules? I assume fliers are just always there, but are super-heavies/gargantuan creatures ok to use always?
>>47177278
Hello me. Can I stop being so shit at everything I do? Thanks.
>>47177364
It's a shame. I liked the old pic. It's easy to spot. I just don't like what /tg/ has become. Certain people (boogeymen or not) seem to make this place unbearable just by existing, whether they're here or not. Ah well. Such is life.
>>47177366
Get some of the SEXY AS FUCK Forge World Models. I want these (as well as the Thanatar and others).
>>47177418
>super-heavies/gargantuan creatures ok to use always?
Rule of thumb is to ask the people you are actually playing the game with but you wont see them under 1500pts ideally.
As far fliers my shop tends to go for the 1 per 1000 rule not taking any till 1500.
>>47177434
Mechanicum =/= Mechanicus. Unless I missed an update, I can't use the 30k stuff in 40k.
>>47177418
Flyers got new rules in Death in the Skies. It's not mandatory, but it adds new shit like giving specific vehicles bonuses for what they do.
Such as, Storm Raven is now specifically a Ground Attack craft and gains bonuses for such things, but if it has to shoot down another flyer, it'll struggle. Basically, every faction has two flyers. One is a 'bomber' or 'attack craft' (either may have transport capacity) while the other one is Air Superiority. The rules now make each one like that. If you're BA or GK, you're fucked. Sorry.
Space Marines got a new flyer, but I dunno if BA and GK can take it.
>>47177446
Ah ok. But by pure RAW, there is nothing stopping a person (other than refusal to play them) from using all that stuff as much as they like? The whole unbound thing is so fucking retarded.
>>47177418
Super heavies is the name of the game now of days. You can make really strong lists with/without them and only a few are "OP PLZ NERF" like everyone will shoutout. Taking one is acceptable but beware of backlash if you take more then 1. Note that in this edition, Eldar/Tau have the lead in Super-heavies as the current ruling favors toughness over Armour-value and the vehicle punishment table.
>>47177366
bulk out your onager, chickenwalker and infiltrator squads
>>47177471
Nope no restrictions, a guy could turn up to a 1k point game with 3 wraithknights if he wanted.
>>47177449
I believe you can. If your opponent agrees of course (but that applies to all Forge World stuff). This book had updated rules which I believe says you can use them in 40k if your opponent agrees. Forge World guys on Facebook say the same.
But, if you don't want that, I'd get some Electro Priests. You need those for War Convo iirc.
/tg/, how would you make Khorne Berzerkers not suck?
>>47177500
And I could tell him to go fuck himself, enjoy his empty table.
>>47177505
>You need those for War Convo iirc.
You absolutely do not. You need one of everything from the Skitarii book, an HQ and two Troops from the Cult Mech book, and a Knight.
>>47177488
> Onager
More Neutron Lasers, or should I go with an anti-air?
> Infiltrator
Absolutely. Those guys are right shit-wreckers, and always draw fire so everything else can get into position, as well.
> Chickenwalker
Wait, seriously? Why? They're AV11 Heavy Weapon Teams that can be shaken.
>>47177473
>mfw I'll never be able to put down a Stormlord and 20 Mortar Guys in the transport capacity and launch 20 barrages every turn while my Stormlord does x2 15 S6 AP3(?) shots
Why live? I'm also baffled as to why Stormblades can't be used legally in Super Heavy Company formation. They are my favourite Baneblade chassis tank.
>>47177514
+1A if they take two chainaxes (on top of the +1A for two melee weapons) and FnP.
>>47177546
You could try fielding non-queer tanks you know.
>>47177535
>More Neutron Lasers, or should I go with an anti-air?
anti-air mite be cool as a separate unit
>Wait, seriously? Why? They're AV11 Heavy Weapon Teams that can be shaken.
yeah but they're sexy AV11 Heavy Weapon Teams that can be shaken
>>47177535
Oh. I must have got confused. Either way, I'd get some of those. But that's me, I'd like a bit of each. I have poor memory due to a head injury so I forget shit easy.
>>47177534
Exactly. The system works.but could definitely do with more restrictions overall
>>47177514
Give them back 3.5e chainaxes.
Are there any good youtube channels for someone who is interested in seeing how 40k plays table top/learn a bit about the game side of things?
>>47177562
How is a Stormblade a queer tank? I'll fucking fite you mate.
>>47177514
Give them chainaxes for free (and also put them in with standard csm gear), another attack and that wulfen thing where they go down fighting. Fixed.
>>47177575
> Head injury
That's the only reason I could think you'd suggest t3 models with a 5++ in a spot where I can get t5 models with grav guns.
>>47177572
> Chickenwalkers
> Sexy
I'm going to have to disagree, friend.
>>47177589
MiniWarGaming.com did a series a while back about how to play, but it was over a year ago now. The fundamentals are still pretty much the same, though.
>>47177366
>do more than War Convo, now that I can
In what capacity can you do more than War Convo? Just meaning that you now have enough models or is there some new Formation or ruling that I don't know about?
>>47176889
>>47176637
Any more like these?
>>47177616
Just that I have enough models. I'm seriously thinking about that Dominus Maniple that came in the Get Started box, desu.
>>47177021
Holy shit what is this Gellar field failure from?
>>47177546
I'm more of a Shadowswords, stormlords, and stormswords kind of guy.
>>47177603
>disagree
absolutely hereitcal/10, get out of my explorator fleet 1v1 me not on the noosphere faggot then see what happens
>>47177600
OP PLZ NERF CHAOS OP.
As I said above, I think, if you gave them an extra chainaxe (for free), instead of Bolt Pistol, they get another +1A. That makes them 5A on the charge, but no range ability. Then give them FnP. They are also 4A when charged. Give them Fleet as well.
That makes them fluffy. Aggressive tactics to get the most out of them and the FnP and Fleet represents their rage to get into the fight quicker.
>>47177632
I like that Formation, but fuck them for creating a 'Get Started' box that combines units that are not even from the same codex.
How long are we supposed to wait before we can just use one book instead of two smaller separate smaller supplements, a White Dwarf article, and a "opponent's permission only" 30k->40k conversion beta ruleset.
It'd be cool to actually be able to just bring a book with my army.
>>47177471
I have never seen someone play unbound above 500pts.
>>47177603
No you misunderstand, I meant to take them as just another unit to fluff out your army. I didn't know you wanted to essentially get suggestions for the best units. You already know what the best units are, I don't see why you'd ask.
>>47177661
A confusing as fuck anime called Mayoiga. Got lots of characters to remember. It's on 5 episodes so far, but it's a great watch if you like crazy shit. It seems to be finally progressing though.
>>47177679
but that would mean updating their 20 year old kit to include more chainaxes!
>>47177661
Boku no pico, you will have to get about halfway through before any of the chaos scary shit begins to happen.
>>47177673
I love Stormlords too. I don't get why the Super Heavy Company formation only lists certain things.
I also like Stormswords (that's the 10" AP2(?) one?) and Hellhammer.
>>47177473
eldar have super heavy vehicles, and they're even more outdated than the imperial factions and from what I can see not that amazing.
It's just that the wraithknight should cost 450+pts and GW seems not to realize this.
>>47177708
But, if they updated the models, people would either shout
>Boring CAD shit!
>No movement!
>Uninspired!
>Static!
or
>Overdesigned CAD shit
>Too much going on
>Concentrated too much on movement!
>Looks like a 6 year old designed it
So I think they'd do just fine. But you're right, if they did update them, extra chainaxes would be cool.
Funny thing is. In HH, Red Butchers can swap with Bolt Pistol for another Chainaxe (Free) but there is no benefit in doing so. They already got +1A from having Chainaxe + Pistol. The extra chainaxe makes them look cooler, but they lose their (albeit BS2) pistol shot.
>>47177725
It's mine!
>>47177514
Let them assault out of Rhinos. Give them Feel no Pain is they win an assault. Chain Axes give shred. Sergeant has 2 wounds. Cheaper Plasma Pistols/Melee Weapons. Maybe drop the point cost by one or two.
>>47177746
The stormsword is a str 10 ap1 apoc blast with 32 inch range and it ignores cover. The Hellhammer is the same but with a smaller blast and a turret. The stormsword is one of the few meta things the IG has next to Wyverns.
>mfw can't decide what army to start.
I love how tyranids look, but that's about it. Would make for some nice paint schemes.
I love Guardsman's fluff, as well as their tanks and such, but something about them feels off for some reason. Possibly the fact that I'd probably be unhappy painting tons of infantry. Ironically enough, I'd be fine painting tons of Tyranids. Eh.
With Space Marines there's so much to choose from, and I can't decide on a favorite chapter.
I love Tau mechs/suits, but hate how the race itself looks.
Don't care about Eldar.
Don't care abour Dark Eldar.
Love AdMech fluff, unsure about them other than that.
Though I love Orks in the fluff, I'm not interested in playing them.
>>47177818
I'm liking everything but assaulting out of rhinos.
Just make Land Raiders better. the subracting remaining hp from vehicle damage has done a lot of that.
>>47177768
>eldar have super heavy vehicles, and they're even more outdated than the imperial factions
Lol, no. Eldar has their own shadowsword which can fly and fires twice.Guess which one is cheaper
>>47177868
You like mecha stuff, do you like augmentation/bionic type stuff? Iron Hands are cool
>>47177863
Interesting. Stormsword sounds like the perfect Cities of Death unit. Hellhammer sounds like an decent alternative and more flexible. It's 7" right? Not too bad a drop for the ability to turn the turret.
>>47177872
I'd like to see a middle-of-the-road option for Chaos between a Rhino and a land-raider. Something around 100 points that's good for an important squad, but not a full blown 200 points just for a transport.
>>47177868
Play Genstealercult allied with guardsmen. Make it a fluffy Genestealercult who took over a guards regiment and use a blend of IG tech and Tyranid biomass to create their warforce.
>>47177883
Cobra is a pretty sexy Super Heavy.
>>47177885
>Liking PTSD emos
You're just like Raven Guard. Except mental.
>>47177868
>I love Tau mechs/suits, but hate how the race itself looks.
You could always sub in human heads/legs in fire warrior armor and play a mixed race force.
>>47177883
isn't it also av12 though?
I haven't looked at the rules in ages because whatever the pt cost, the dollar cost is outside my price range.
>>47177868
Sounds like you'd want an armoured company for guard, which is fairly doable. You could easily take mostly tanks and fewer infantry.
>>47177901
I like the mix of robotic/flesh. Sue me
>>47177912
That's fine anon. Was only messing.
>>47177890
that would also be cool. Rhinos for me felt they were intended to be a dirt cheap transport box, and making that an assault vehile would be great. Unless you wanted to make it av10 and open topped.
>>47177868
if it's your first army just play it safe and save yourself the trouble and play space marines and make 'your own dudes'
>>47177905
When you are dealing at that power range, AV doesn't matter. Also, two largeblast strD ap2 hits is nothing to scuff at.
>>47177890
Then everybody else will want one. I don't think Ad Mech even get a transport vehicle.
So inside a space marines helmet do they have a HUD? Or is it just like looking out of a helmet?
>>47177952
really, you want to bet that CSM will get a new codex before the third admech book comes out?
Because I will take that bet against you and raise you.
>>47177998
I think only the admech and some Spacemarine squads get a hud.
So I'm starting a Chaos humans Army and while I want to do Chaos Scions part of me says I should just go Chaos IG without the hotshot or carapce fuckery.
Second opinions?
>>47177868
Get Tyranids and paint them like Ultramarines.
They are the Hive Mind's Ultranids, And They Shall Know No Fear.
Do it.
>>47177952
I wouldn't bet with >>47177999 anon. He's got a full house.
>>47178015
I always wondered if it was like Halo where the weapons don't really have sights because a HUD cross hair is there. It's just stylish firing then with a big ass front post
>>47178019
The Chaos Scions are a fair bit better than regular ones because flexibility.
>>47177200
As a Sisters player that's why my army never reached apoc levels. That and all the models that are always out of stock.
>>47177921
I always liked the idea of letting berserkers or chaos marines in general ride around on the outside of a vehicle. Limited transport space, but they offer it a cover save and can charge off of it.
>>47178022
I remember this. Good times.
>>47176889
That's fucking awesome
>>47178036
Yeah, they get a lot more toys in IA13 while remaining a core choice (with the right warlord) which is a big part of the draw.
I may end up doing two R&H armies but for now I'm trying to get my brain to focus on just one.
Guess I'm just used to the "one good option per slot" issue Sisters have and that's making it hard to choose. That said I do want an elite Chaos humans feeling Army and since I don't feel like using my Sister's codex for count-as (namely because I've plundered ever thing you can run out of it and run out of new ways to spin the same old list) so this looks like a good method.
>>47176114
I know that feel. I have several armies and have been into this crap for about 10 years and never played any games or anything. Nobody to talk about the lore with. Nobody to play Dark Heresy with. Nobody to encourage me to paint more.
I wish I had friends I guess.
>>47178135
I suddenly just got an idea for a pair of looted Ork Knights...
>>47178061
You're thinking of Orks
>>47178167
Why not both?
>>47178159
If you're worried about your chaos scions not having enough bullets or staying power, get either some artillery platforms or leman russ tanks, or possibly even some ogryns. Ogryns are super expensive but a squad of 3 is like ~200 points for a pretty threatening fire magnet. I run mine with nurgle and carapace and they usually do pretty well except for the one game where I literally failed every single save I was called upon to make.
>>47178160
No game shops around you?
All I did was look up "Warhammer {my city}" in google and found a couple shops to play in
then again, depending on who owns the place you can get some incredibly shitty people
>>47178208
Oh fair point there. Is was thinking a Hellhound or two and some rapiers would be good to mix in. Maybe a Renegade Knight if I'm feeling cheeky.
>>47178209
that can be a thing. There are three game stores within and hours drive of me. ones about ten minutes way, the next thirty, and the next a full hour.
And the one I never go to any more is the closest one, because the owners and managers are dicks.
>>47178165
Please do it
>>47178231
>Those are both pretty viable options. If you do rapiers, I suggest converting them from kataphrons instead of buying the FW kit. I thought this conversion looked way cooler and I'm going to be doing it myself once I've cut through more of my backlog.
>>47177910
New IG player here, where is the Armoured Company from?
Also, I've recently bought the Start Collecting kit, looking to run a tank heavy army, any tips?
>>47178160
>>47178247
>>47178209
I have a semi-similar problem where I do have a gameshop that is really close but has the worst owner ever. The few that got started playing at his store stopped playing warhammer because of his stupidity. He would never stock up on his store, had very little models on hand, and would always end up ordering the wrong thing. He told me and my friend (The last who actively play warhammer there) that he would still do warhammer and support it, but we should go out and bring him customers. He even offered a program where new players don't have to pay his five dollar per person table fee. Atleast there is another store 40 minutes away in sarasota that has actual stock and doesn't charge for a tablespace.
>>47178247
Yeah, I had the same experience. One of the more "professional" shops had some judgmental over competitive dicks to play against which sucked as someone who just wanted to play a fucking game. But I did find one that was barely bigger than a bedroom that just had people who could grab some beers, make some jokes and roll some dice.
>>47178308
IG Imperial Armour:Volume one version two.
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Imperial-Armour-Volume-One-Second-Edition-Imperial-Guard
>>47178308
I think Armoured Battlegroup is from a forgeworld supplement. Not sure which one, but it's probably in the Mega link in the OP
Even without it, it's easy enough to take a minimal level of troops, or use some of the new guard formations to field more tanks.
I can't really give you much specific advice, since I don't play guard. All I can really recall is that you shouldn't give side-sponsons to a Leman Russ with an Ordnance Main gun.
>>47177711
From I remember the chaos shit starts from right the start
>>47178339
it's from Imperial Armour 2
>>47178308
There is an old baneblade formation where I think you take a shadowsword/baneblade and put it with as many sentinels/lemanrusses that you want. Instead of the shadowsword taking any wounds from a single weapon, you can sacrifice a sentinel/ russ tank and the Super heavy suffers no dmg.
>>47177589
Poster here, found this guy and his painting videos seem good https://www.youtube.com/user/Alanduin1/videos
Should I give my Heavy Weapons team a Lascannon or Autocannon?
I also feel like making my Leman Russ an Exterminator with Multi-Melta Sponsons, and either a Hull Lascannon, or Hull HBolter.
Do chaos marines maintenance their shit or does it just stay together by magic?
>>47178351
Only the Slaanesh stuff, maybe a little bit of Tzeentch too.
>>47177902
Play Farsight Enclaves...
>>47178470
magic
>>47178470
Little of both, plus they've got all those slaves.
>>47178470
Yes, but they use slaves for that because fuck doing menial tasks.
this is also why all of their gear is shit, because terrified/insane/half-starved slaves make poor technicians
>>47178533
Is it common in lore for Chaos shit to fail then?
>>47178266
You read my mind about the conversion. I was thinking the same thing myself, it's just a really natural choice.
So because the Scions can get a Hotshot volley for every 5 models should I ignore the normal specials in favor of vox and the sigil or should I basically double up on firepower over the possible ld buffing?
>>47178465
Exterminator with plasma is an ace combination. cheap base platform firing STR7 shots. all over the place.
i swear by them. great utility tanks that tend to get ignored because "just exterminators". oh and always go with hull LC for them.
as for HWT it depends if you need hard targets taken out or not. otherwise Autocannons are the bread and butter of the guard.
would recommend a Vendetta with troops w/ meltas if you need something for harder targets anyway.
oh and if you really want to throw your opponents off, use a Crassus Dominator artillery tank. found in Imperial Armour V2. 280 pts for 6 HP 14/13/12 and a three shot STR10 AP1 barrage.
>>47178308
Can run a Cadian Battlegroup with 1-2 Emperor's Fist Armoured Company with optional Recon, Arty, Aerial, and Super Heavy Support and not take a single infantry model.
>>47178565
I'd double the firepower, I usually get pretty lucky and get renegades with better morale than my CSM. If you're super worried about failing morale you can always attach an enforcer to them.
>>47178588
I lied. The Arty Company has to take a CCS.
>>47178465
I'd say the Autocannon for the HWT.
I say go for the Melta sponsons and Hull Lascannon, since the Exterminator Autocannons aren't Ordinance weapons, it can actually use those attachments, making it about 170 points, iirc. The same as a normal LR with HBolter sponsons.
This gives the Exterminator a Jack-of-All-Trades mentality that actually works, since all those powerful shots can actually be used at once.
iirc, that's about 2(?) melta shots, 1 lascannon shot, and 4 Twin-linked Autocannon shots.
All for the price of one normal LR with HBolters. A Leman Russ that can only use them as snapshots. Lame.
Some pretty major changes this time around.
Chaos Devotions dropped in favor of god covenants similar to the current Mark system. Icons are greatly expanded. "Legion" support for the Legion's not feasible under the current options when the Chaos Warband detachment is finalized.
>tfw watching a captain with a jet pack and plasma pistol/lightning claw murder a battle suit squad
FIST THEM
FIST THEM FOR THE EMPEROR
>>47178600
Fair point then. So 10 with 2 volley guns and 2 meltas in an Autocannon chimera. A champion with melta bombs and a power axe might be good too for getting the covenant for the squad (Tzeentch all the way).
I think three of those forms a solid backbone for the Army.
Probably will leave the CS pretty cheap since they can't run hotshots for some reason (should be a core choice for disciples in my opinion).
>>47178600
Or a member of a Cyclopia Cabal. Sure, he's more expensive than an Enforcer, but he's got a higher average Leadership, better armor, a Force Weapon, and access to Telepathy. Assuming they all roll on Telepathy, you've got pretty good odds of rolling Mental Fortitude to rally any units that do fail a check.
>>47178716
You can detach the demagouge from the squad but IMO its usually easier to just leave him be. Upgrade the command squad with a mortar team and let em fling shells at the enemy from behind a wall somewhere. Its a five point upgrade and at least lets the squad do something for the game.
>>47178470
In the BL novels and Imperial Armor books, they have human slaves that work for them. Same as human crew and servants on Astartes ships back in the pre-heresy years.
Read the Night Lords trilogy. Talos' servant Septimus is the motherfucking man. Dude flies a Thunderhawk all by himself in combat, repairs and polishes weapons and armor, takes shit from the other traitor marines, walks around on Lufgt Hurons space station like he doesnt give a fuck, keeps the ships human crew in line, makes a baby, and is generally just a humbly awesome guy. That lives with the Night Lords and works in the dark.
Chaos Marines arent all warp loving queerdos. Some of them just hate the Imperium of man, and have regular dudes simultaneously doing the bitch work and becoming legends on the side.
Has anyone confirmed anything on whether or not the sister of battle are getting closer to having plastics or is that just a far reaching dream that will never become a reality?
>>47178823
Nothing has ever really been officially said. It's probably coming "eventually," possibly at the start of 8th edition.
>>47176689
Few big hitters (PF/TH), few stormshields to soak ap3+ wounds and few guys just to eat bullets.
>>47178783
Iron warriors and night Lords both sounded like terrible people to work for or with. Or even to know. And that was before the heresy.
At least some of the guys seduced by the warp seemed like they used to be bros
New to 40k
Thinking of buying Slaanesh daemonnette set or CSM with Slaaneshi setting
What do you guys think?
>>47178911
I wonder how soon 8E will be coming. Sure I know the answer will be "eventually" but damnit I want the Nuns With Guns already!
2 reasons I'm not getting the girls right now:
Too expensive (pewter aint cheap)
Ugly models (blaming pewter again)
>>47179064
people are going to tell you CSM are shit and that you should use either the SM codex or the Daemon codex instead
I say your dudes are your dudes and belong to no one else. Follow your heart and make your dreams come true.
>>47179064
Go with a metric shit ton of Daemonettes if you're going to go that route. Too squishy to not use nids approach. Their speed and if you have the numbers makes them fun imo.
>>47179096
>>47179114
Hmm So are you saying I should go full daemonettes and disregard CSM?
b-but last I heard Noise marines were buffed...
>>47177393
>>47179096
>people are going to tell you CSM are shit
Because they are.
> that you should use either the SM codex or the Daemon codex instead
Because you should.
>>47179064
Start with Slaaneshi daemons. Get to know how to play the game, how other factions play, etc. Then, buy some CSM allies. See how they play. See what they do for you.
Go slowly. Don't rush into this. Don't let your miniature backlog grow too big.
>>47179137
You should just play how you want. 99.9% of the time you won't do well unless you play an army build you hate anyways.
>>47179155
Alright. Any other Slaaneshi dedicated CSM other than Emperor's Children?
>>47179184
yeah there are some
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Space_Marine_Legions_and_Warbands_(List)
>>47179137
Noise marines are fine, just pricey and the official models are very old. They are priced similar to Chosen, but they get fearless and Mark of Slaanesh instead of a CCW and +1A. With an Icon of Excess and gun upgrades they are a very durable and very shooty unit, but they start to get really pricey.
As I said, follow your heart. If you want marines, take marines.
>>47179184
The codex lists a few. You can always make your own warband too.
>>47179184
DL the CSM codex and read it for yourself.
CSM are fairly undeveloped, and the Legion's still get the lion's share of the exposition, despite their supposed death and obsolescence.
>>47179199
>>47179184
>>47179137
Noise Marines are mediocre. Best used as MSU Blastmaster squads in Rhinos. Icon of Excess is too pricey for small squads, and large squads still get devastated by a lot anti-marine weapons even with Feel no Pain.
>>47179184
Flawless Host, but their color scheme is girly
>>47179231
>Noise Marines are mediocre
well duh they are from the CSM codex
but of the four cult troops and chosen they are probably the best
>>47179199
It's sad because I'm a CSM Slaaneshi fanboy because of the fluff.
I'll lose to everyone anyway because of crunch.
>>47176049
I just converted some Bret Men at Arms into Banner-men for my Imperial Knight.
>>47179276
Correct. I just feel that it's important to tell prospective players the truth instead of filling them full of bullshit about how Plague Marines and Noise Marines are totally awesome units and not overcosted, ineffectual, and mediocre.
If someone loves the fluff and look of CSM, great. Buy some, paint them, and play with them. Just be aware of what you're getting into.
>>47179405
Can I mix IG(as traitor guardsmen) with slaanesh daemonettes?
Is that allowed or do I have to peg IG with a CSM chapter?
>>47179425
There's the Renegades & Heretics army list from forgeworld. Literally Traitor Guard.
>>47179425
>>47179438
Something else to mention about Renegades & Heretics, if you go for Slaanesh Devotions, you can pick up Noise Marines and Sonic Dreadnoughts as Elites in the army. Could be a good way to include some CSM stuff without going too far into it.
>>47179425
Renegades and Heretics from Imperial Armor 13 is the core "traitor Guard" list. It's Battle Brothers with all the other Chaos factions, so you can freely mix them. Note that all Chaos Daemon units have Daemonic Instability, which means your mortal and Neverborn Independent Characters can't join each others units.
>>47179438
>>47179449
>>47179479
Awesome. Will definitely get IG w/ slaanesh daemonettes and select elite units.
Might get a defiler to go along with a leman russ tank.
>>47179438
>>47179449
>>47179479
also keep in mind if you want to buy the R&H codex it is 100 dollerdoos + international shipping, no electronic version available because forge world still thinks it is 1995
>>47179405
"they are fine" isn't saying "you will stomp all over scatbike eldar, tau waac bullshit, or space marine cheatfuck formations"
but unless anon is playing competitively they can still win games
>>47179539
Start small first as when you building a new army it is very easy to buy a bunch at once at get overwhelmedbut eventually look into renegade knights as well. They are a very new addition to chaos and pretty good. You can buy a box of two and some terrain for 175 dollars.
>>47179540
>"they are fine" isn't saying "you will stomp all over scatbike eldar, tau waac bullshit, or space marine cheatfuck formations"
I never implied that was what you, or anyone else, said.
Chaos Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids, and Dark Eldar will struggle to win against average lists from the other codexes. Winning against competitive lists from the other codexes, or even mediocre lists from the top tier codexes, will be extremely difficult if not impossible.
As long as your fine with playing the game on hard mode, go ahead and play Orks or Chaos Space Marines or Dark Eldar. Just know what you're signing up for.
>Warhammer movie
>At the end it's revealed all to be a table top session
>>47179830
just like the lego movie, except instead of the strict lego enthusiast dad, the main kid is playing against a fedora tipping, rules lawyer, neckbeard.
>>47179830
Is it going to feature the armies randomly running around the map like they ADD? Will the armies place an inordinate emphasis on entirely eliminating enemy units, especially the first one? Will the end of the movie consist of everyone ceasing their fighting and just running over to random points before getting disappointed and doing it over again?
>>47179848
No it'll be a movie that doesn't follow table top rules so the autists all get triggered at the end when they realize
>>47179787
some top tier codexes are less forgiving than others
If you throw together random kits you will have a terrible Eldar list, but if you do the same with Tau you will have formations and some good combinations going.
I looked into tau once. I planned on buying a Start Collecting! box, an OSC box, and a bunch of drones for the drone net formation that gives them outflank and +1 BS. I decided against it for a few reasons, but that would have been a pretty scary 1000 point list to play against. The scariest thing of all though is how easy it is to put a list like that together while just buying bundles and/or what looks good.
>>47179895
>f you throw together random kits you will have a terrible Eldar list,
Sure, buddy.
>>47179895
>If you throw together random kits you will have a terrible Eldar list
You have to try pretty hard to make a shitty Eldar list. Space Marines and Daemons are the top tier codexes that can easily make a shitty list. The former because most of their strength comes from Grav Weapons and formations, the latter because only a handful of units are actually good.
>>47179895
>If you throw together random kits
You'll have a strong Tau or Eldar list. Marines require more planning, but you can still fall into it pretty easily.
Top tier codexes are on another level entirely
>>47178015
>some Spacemarine
wut
ALL Space Marines have HUD's. Even GUARDSMEN have HUDs unless they come from a backwater planet.
>>47179950
where do they place the hud ? most guardsmen don't even have any goggles
>>47179895
I'm pretty sure even a list of nothing but the worst Eldar units would still be more than enough to beat the likes of Orks or CSM without much issue.
>>47179062
>implying Talos and First Claw werent bros.
>>47179946
If I buy two eldar battleforces, a plastic farseer, and as many striking scorpion boxes as there is points left over for (striking scorpions are cool) would that make a good army? Maybe add in one of those goofy looking war walkers if it is still missing points.
>>47179950
THIS JUST IN, CADIA IS A BACKWATER PLANET.
WATCH AS ABADDON WASTES A CRUSADE'S RESOURCES ON SOME RANDOM PLANET IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE!THEABSOLUTEMspoiler]MAA[spoiler]D[N
>>47180013
Totally. Guardians and Dire Avengers can both hold objectives and take out a variety of threats, and they're fairly mobile as well. The Wave Serpents help with this further, and they'd can function as fairly durable tanks even outside their transport duties. Vypers are fast, though a bit fragile. You'll probably want anti-tank guns on them and whatever else you can, as your infantry won't really have that option. Striking Scorpions can easily infiltrate and serve as a durable distraction or assault in to a vulnerable unit. The Farseer should help tie it together with psychic support.
>>47180029
>WATCH AS ABADDON WASTES A CRUSADE'S RESOURCES ON SOME RANDOM PLANET IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE!
haha you foolish slaves to the false emperor , i didn't mean to conquer cadia and then terra at all i meant to conquer this pair of boots worn by someone important because ehhhh its a weapon of mass destruction !!
chaos wins again !
>>47179276
Eh 5 man Plague Marine squads arent bad. They get 2 specials, assault/defensive grenades, T5, aids, poison (4+), fearless, and FnP.
5 with plasma x2 in a rhino is 185 points. Before formations and the power spike a lot of armies got - this wasnt bad.
>>47179971
Most guardsmen actually do have goggles and masks, especially Cadians. The models just don't come with them for the usual 'hur dur we don't represent the fluff at all' of GW model makers. No different than how space marines wear a mixture of various armor types mashed together but all the GW kits are largely made of pure MK 7.
Has anyone used Dark Angels as Templars for the fluff of the knightly orders? I want to try their playstyle but everything's painted green and was gifted way too much DA stuff to sell off.
Are there any videos of table top chimp outs?
>>47180087
none of the art has a significant number of models with goggles
>>47179931
>Space Marines and Daemons are the top tier codexes that can easily make a shitty list.
back in 3rd and early 4th my space marine list was total dogshit but my friend who played necrons stopped playing against me because I tabled him every game
if memory serves it was something like
>captain with artificer armor, power sword, and storm bolter, does nothing all game
>tac squad with missile launcher and plasma gun, no transport
>tac squad with missile launcher and flamer, no transport
>terminator squad with assault cannon (footslogged)
>dakka pred
>devastator squad with the following: 1 lascannon, 1 heavy bolter, 1 plasma cannon, 1 multimelta
>grey knight terminators with an incinerator (deep striked)
>a whirlwind
>>47180072
14th Black Crusade When??
>>47180140
similarly he had
>a bunch of warriors, two or three squads
>two units of destroyers
>some scarabs? don't recall how many
>a lord with resurrection orb
>a monolith he slowly floated across the table doing very little with
>a nightbringer
With how the Phase Out rules worked back then he would have been better off without the monolith or nightbringer and instead just packing more destroyers and warriors
>>47180082
>claims Plague Marines aren't bad
>admits that they were only okay BEFORE the latest round of power creep
Plague Marines just don't do enough, and they have the same problem that pretty much all elite infantry has. They still die fairly easily to the same weapons that are good at killing regular space marines. That said, Plagues only need to to drop a couple PPM and have a better codex around them and they'd be fine.
Is there ANY synergy in bringing together AdMech and Harlequins? They're at least Allies of Convenience, right? Does the AdMech bring anything to the table that would really flesh out Harlequins? I want to run a primarily Harlequin army, and I like AdMech enough that they'd probably be my second army, and I'm just wondering if it'd ever be worth fielding them together so that I can make use of my entire collection.
>>47180013
It takes a lot of work to build a bad Eldar army.
If you want to run a ton of Scorpions, Karandras is potentially worth the points - he gives them a lot more freedom to infiltrate in strong positions, and he's pretty strong. You can get away with just Exarchs though - they have an option that makes them excellent challenge fighters. They won't beat most ICs geared for duels, but they can whack sergeants easy.
>>47180272
Kinda... Both armies would do pretty well but you are sticking yourself with no transports. That means footslogging all the way. I would suggest maybe an army that focuses on outflanking and single target elimination
I have a question about the Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion. Does the master-crafted work on the exchanged Smash attack in a challenge? It says under smash you roll to hit as you would normally, but you exchange your attacks for the smash attack. I figured the mastercrafted would work because of the wording, but my friend is questioning it.
>>47180319
It does work. You still use your weapon, even if you are smashing.
I dod up two lists for a weekend game, they are more thematic than competetive but ideas to trim fat and optimize would be nice.
+++ BullyBlitzGitz (1849pts) +++
+ Formation +
"Blitz Brigade"
2x Battlewagon [Killkannon, Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha]
3xBattlewagon [Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha]
"Ghazghkull's Bullyboyz"
3x Meganobz:
Boss Meganob w/ Killsaws, 4x Meganob w/ Twin-linked Shoota
"Kaptin Badrukk's Flash Gitz"
Flash Gitz [Ammo Runt, 9x Flash Git, Kaptin]
Flash Gitz [Ammo Runt, 9x Flash Git, Kaptin]
Kaptin Badrukk, Da Freeboota King [Ammo Runt, Warlord]
+++Klankasores (1845pts) +++
Orks: IA08 - Dread Mob (2013 pdf)
Codex Pts Values
+ HQ +
Kustom Meka-Dread [Kill Saw, Kill Saw, Kustom Force Field]
+ Troops +
Deff Dread Mob
Deff Dread [Extra Armour, Grot Riggers, Power Klaw, Skorcha]
Deff Dread Mob
Deff Dread [Extra Armour, Grot Riggers, Power Klaw, Skorcha]
Spanna Boyz Mob
10x Spanna Boy [10x Shoota]
+ Fast Attack +
5x Killa Kan [Grotzooka]
5x Killa Kan [Grotzooka]
+ Heavy Support +
Mega-Dread [Grot Riggers, Kill Saw, Killkannon, 3x Skorcha]
+ Lord of War +
Buzzgob's Big Mek Stompa [Deff Kannon, Mega-klaw, 3x Supa-rokkit]
Mek Boss Buzzgob [Warlord]
>>47180335
Okay, so I looked at the list and here is where you need to trim down.
>"Blitz Brigade"
>2x Battlewagon [Killkannon, Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha]
>3xBattlewagon [Reinforced Ram, Rokkit Launcha]
>"Ghazghkull's Bullyboyz"
>3x Meganobz:
>Boss Meganob w/ Killsaws, 4x Meganob w/ Twin-linked Shoota
>"Kaptin Badrukk's Flash Gitz"
>Flash Gitz [Ammo Runt, 9x Flash Git, Kaptin]
>Flash Gitz [Ammo Runt, 9x Flash Git, Kaptin]
>Kaptin Badrukk, Da Freeboota King [Ammo Runt, Warlord]
>+++Klankasores (1845pts) +++
>Orks: IA08 - Dread Mob (2013 pdf)
>Codex Pts Values
>+ Fast Attack +
>5x Killa Kan [Grotzooka]
>5x Killa Kan [Grotzooka]
>+ Heavy Support +
>Mega-Dread [Grot Riggers, Kill Saw, Killkannon, 3x Skorcha]
>+ Lord of War +
>Buzzgob's Big Mek Stompa [Deff Kannon, Mega-klaw, 3x Supa-rokkit]
>Mek Boss Buzzgob [Warlord]
Then, replace it with an unbound allied attachment of looted wraithknights if you want a truly trimmed down, fat removed, effective ork list.
>>47180313
Harlequins have transports. They can't hold a lot of clowns (which is a shame, they're clown cars, come on GW) but they do bring Shuriken Cannons
I was thinking maybe borrowing an Onager for the AA, and maybe the walker formation for a bunch of slightly-hardier-than-Harlequins killy distraction walkers. Or that formation that boosts the Infiltrator bubble, and run a bunch of Sicarians together with Harlequins in transports - a Toughness-reducing effect seems like it would be really useful for an army whose gimmick is throwing out a million billion S3 attacks.
>>47180324
okay. thanks for the answer my man.
>>47180380
>gimmick is throwing out a million billion S3 attacks.
Oh man, I went against an APOC Corsair army like that with a LOW (vampire hunter i think?) and that. I brought a full War-Convo +some extra with a warhound for a total of 2700 points. His melee deathstar sure did hurt my vanguard when they got into assault... But my warhound did most of the legwork and I ended up tabling him on turn 3
>>47180366
In retrospect, do you think that was that worth the time spent typing and solving capcha?
>>47180427
>those "click until there is none left" captchas that take over a minute yet still error out after your solve them
>>47180415
I mean, Harlequins do one thing and one thing well, and that's roll an unreasonable number of rending attacks on their number of dice.
Running some Skitarii Vanguards alongside could potentially do a lot for their problems with stuff that's high-T. Infiltrators and their -1 WS/BS/Ld/I bubble basically guarantee the high-skill, high-initiative Harlequins are getting lots of 3+ to hit, 5+ to be hit fights, hitting first even against other fast armies, and getting shot less. Plus the potential hilarity of a -1 Ld bubble alongside the Mask of Shadows for utter Ld fucking shenanigans. Against armies vulnerable to Fear that becomes extra hilarious.
>>47180427
>>47180454
I switched to the old captcha months ago. Literally 40% shitposting capacity. Also, it was at one point where every other picture captcha did an infinite loop where I would solve one after another. I tested it once for fun and ended up doing it for 43 minutes before just refreshing the browser and doing it again.
>>47180366
One raised eyebrow, a half-sigh and two (you)s/10
>>47180484
It could be fun. I love painting my skitarii almost as much as I like painting knights. I was going to pick up Harlequins but got the Tomb awakens necron kit for 30 dollars.
>>47180495
I got a pass for when i did comic storytimes.
Then /aco/ decided "adult comics" only meant fatty and diaper porn
>>47180523
I never visited /aco/ yet. It seemed to be really gimicky. I'll just stay with /gif/ for my /h/ needs.
>>47180454
oh FUCK. I always thought those were just a glitched captcha and I could never get past those. thank you anon for correcting my idiocy.
Anyone else than me who only likes to paint and build dioramas with fixed models?
>tfw spent many monies on static shit I cant use but im still happy
>>47180571
I want to do a "scattered" Diorama at one point. Just a table made into a giant warzone where my models have their own little "slots" that they fit in and their bases blend in with the whole board. That way I have a display peice/ a playable army.
>>47180532
Well i went there to storytime actual comics that got NSFW tagged because of boobs or "adult situations".
Preacher, transmeteopolitan ect.
Smut ive got dedicated sources for.
>>47180603
That sounds nice. Any pics of stuff like that?
At my local GW, it seems like the main 40k armies are warrior/walker focused Necrons, and foot slogging Ultramarines.
Would I be that guy if I went White Scars successor that focuses on flyers and tanks, with bikes and rhino riding tacticals as objective grabbers?
>>47180608
Something close to this.
>>47179184
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Violators
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Angels_of_Ecstasy
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Flawless_Host%2C_The
The big three 'official' bands. All rather nice colour schemes overall, but they look hard to paint. Its pretty easy to come up with crazy Slaanesh colour schemes if you want to do your own.
>>47180523
>pays for 4chan pass
>whines about the price of a GW marine box or pot of paint
>>47180895
Never have, don't play marines and I'm cognicent that it's a luxury.
>>47180895
Suck three dicks and call me Mary Jane.
>>47180170
>Beating 3rd/4th ed Necrons when they brought a Monolith and the Nightbringer
You took one or the other. Bringing both just brought him way too close to Phase Out.
Truth be told I did like the fluff of Phase Out but fuck me if it didn't severely limit list building in what was already a severely limited codex.
>>47180335
Both are totally fine thematic lists. BullyBlitzGitz (nice name btw) will struggle a little against some forces but I honestly consider it hands down to be the most fun Ork list out there. Bear in mind that the new FAQ disallows the MANZ from charging after the Scout move if you go second, and the units can't start the game on the Battlewagons. That second one will likely be changed before the FAQs are officially released but bear it in mind for future games.
Finding some way to get a KFF into Buzzgob's Stompa in the second list would be great. 5++ invul on a 12 HP vehicle is very nice. The Big Mek holding it could take Da Fixer Upper too for a delicious 3+ repair roll.
>>47180996
The idea is to have the meka dredd waddle near the stompa initially, breaking off when its melee time.
>>47181014
Stompa moves 12 inches a turn, whereas the Meka moves 6. So it will likely outpace it quite quickly.
Holy fucking shit why is the Ultramarines so awesome compared to the other space marine legions?
I mean the only competitor for Ultramarines is Black Templars and Grey Knights (because batshit insane to the sororitas)
Come on guys I know Blue is the color for purity but you can't agree after reading the Space Marine Codex 5th Edition you would love the Ultramarines for being the Emperor's Best.
>>47179184
>>47181043
>Black Templars and Grey Knights
shit taste
>>47181043
Get back to me when the Ultramarines are actually the most powerful.
>>47178352
Yeah, the guard tank list is in the space marine book...
>>47181043
Too bad they aren't the best at close range ordinance.
REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I WANT UPDATED ASPECT WARRIOR KITS!
THESE SCULPTS ARE OLDER THAN I AM!
I WANT NEW, PLASTIC ONES, WITH POSING OPTIONS, AND WARGEAR!
GEEEEEEEEEEEE WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
