Which one was Lawful Good, and which one was Chaotic Good?
They're both Lawful Good, they just follow different codes.
>>47136943
I would probably say they're both Neutral Good but started at Lawful and Chaotic; Tony's character starts off VEEEERY Chaotic Good and his near-death experience causes him to see things differently and he starts to understand holy shit maybe there should be some kind of anything keeping the living nukes from walking around.
Cap goes the other direction; he starts off all MY COUNTRY TIS OF THEE which is super-easy to do when the guys you're punching are literal Nazis. Winter Soldier, on the other hand, is about muddying the waters and coming to realise that you can no longer trust grand sets of laws - because those laws and principles don't necessarily reflect what is RIGHT. So he starts going rogue.
>>47137373
/Thread.
Cap is Chaotic Evil at the end of Civil War, he's willing to ignore Law and Good for the sake of protecting an Evil man for no good reason other than childhood friendship
>>47137484
>Bucky
>Evil
Did you not see the movie? It literally opens with "this is how Bucky is being mind-controlled and is therefore not responsible for his actions". Charm Person does not cause someone to change alignments.
Not sure, but you know they're both PCs because of how quickly they resorted to infighting and how easily they were manipulated by the bad guys.
>>47137548
Bucky is completely willing to kill the police coming to arrest him, at which point he wasn't under orders/mind control
>>47137794
> police.
> not HYDRA agents.
Pick one. Reminder that when he eventually was caught and brought in he was subjected to mind control.
>>47137794
First of all, at that point he's RESPONDING to lethal force; those guys are explicitly shooting on sight. That's just fair play and basic self-defence; that's how police are supposed to work, for instance - only deploying lethal force in circumstances where lethal force is a real threat.
Second of all, no, he's just rougher with them than Cap is. I don't recall seeing a single fatality in that sequence.
>>47137850
It's more that he doesn't care if they die than trying to outright kill them.
>>47137373
I'm glad they included this line
Wish they had Cap himself say it tho
>>47137844
HYDRA literally doesn't exist at this point in the MCU
>>47137850
Yes, because cap explicitly stops him killing at least 3 dudes
>>47137893
I liked the way they put it in.
>>47137985
Well technically it does, just not in the way it used to and completely under Hive's control. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
>>47138027
Hive isn't referring to it as Hydra anymore andthe last episode killed the remaining hydra leadership
>>47138002
And again, those guys are explicitly coming to kill him, NOT arrest him. The reason Cap is there is "if you come with me, maybe you don't get shot by the SWAT guys who are about to shoot you".
It's not evil to defend yourself just because the person attacking you is a cop.
>>47138027
>>47138088
I don't know shit about agents of shield, but Hydra constantly coming back is sort of a thing
>>47138158
This. It's their fucking motto.
>>47137985
> HYDRA doesn't exist.
> bad guy literally gets ahold of HYDRA technology to use it against Buckey, a HYDRA sleeper cell.
> HYDRA doesn't exist.
Also implying they haven't gotten so good at this that everyone believes HYDRA isn't a thing anymore.
That thing with the scientist who uploaded his brain into WW2 tech was utterly brilliant if you think about it from a super-intelligent evil cabal point of view.
>>47138158
Heil HYDRA!
>>47138158
Its like if you cut off one head another appears.
>>47136943
>applying dnd alignments outside of dnd
>>47136943
Tony was Lawful Right, for that whole film while getting fucked over constantly. Spiderman was the highlight though he was great,and Aunt May was smokin'.
I'm rewatching Age of Ultron.
Why did Quicksilver had to die. He was so fun. And much less mopey than his siter.
>>47139150
Tony was a kneejerk idiot like always.
>get blown up
>suddenly decide to stop selling weapons
>invent unlimited energy
>decide you can't use it to improve the world because it can be used as a weapon
>technology gets stolen and turned into a drone army
>design a load of helicarriers to protect the world
>helicarriers get hijacked by Hydra with the intention of killing millions
>no problem, I'll just build a super intelligent robot army
>robot army predictably turns evil
>woman tells him her babby got crushed by a building
"SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING"
If Stark had died in that desert, the world would probably be less fucked up
>>47139163
Because it's a relatively shitty movie, plus Quicksilver is much better in the X-Men movies while there is no Scarlet Witch in those. So when the inevitable merger finally happens, they don't have to worry about multiple Quicksilvers.
Also, I hate the fuck out of the fact that in Civil War Scarlet Witch is just a telekinetic. With random ability to depower Vision because magical jewelry.
>>47136943
Pretty clear cut examples of Tony being Lawful Neutral while Cap was Chaotic Good. The Accords would not stop people from being hurt by disasters and would likely cause more innocents to die during the bureaucratic lag to actually request the Avengers assistance, yet it would provide a measure of order and, well, bureaucracy to what was previously just a bunch of more-or-less demigods doing whatever the fuck they wanted. Cap was willing to do whatever it took to protect his childhood friend who had been both mind-controlled and framed for various wrongs, willing to become a criminal from the very government he once embodied in order to stand by his single link to the past.
>>47137893
Yeah, it really pissed me off how they took Cap's most famous quote and put it in the lips of Next Door Neighbor / Secret Agent / Love Interest. A fat black dude a few rows down actually yelled out, "That's not your line, bitch!" at the midnight release.
Also, gotta love how everything's just a-okay at the end. No harm, no foul.
>mfw edgelord supreme Crossbones aloha snackbars himself like three seconds into the movie
They promised that characters would actually die. Killing Carter off-street and Crossbones in the first fucking scene doesn't count. I'm mad. Everything is so fucking low stakes because the good guys always win and no one important ever dies.
>>47140380
*off screen
It's going to be one of those nights, isn't it?
>>47140305
>>Also, gotta love how everything's just a-okay at the end. No harm, no foul.
Did we watch the same movie? At the end Stark is alone on the compound, Team Cap is on the lam in Wakanda under T'Challa's protection. In the short term Zemo won, he didn't care that he got caught and is imprisoned. He destroyed the Avengers as a group. Yeah sure, we know the team will get back together because we know there are an assload of MCU movies coming, but as far as his world is concerned the Avengers have been disbanded.
>>47140338
Almost wished they'd managed to work Nuke into the movie. Him and Crossbones are such gloriously shitty characters. Would be fun to see the two nutcases side-by-side, laughing as they gun down Nigerian civilians in the opening sequence.
>>47140380
B-but Warmachine is crippled! That's like, super intense, man! Even though it was perfectly set up for that to actually kill him.
Also, MCU Vision kinda a shit. But I think the thing the movie has me saltiest about is the fact that instead of giving Falcon the ability to mentally control birds, they just gave him a shitty like drone. Probably for product placement purposes.
>>47140305
Wanda's powers came from the staff's gem, makes sense there's a relation with Vision's gem, which is the same gem
>>47140437
Honestly, it would've felt just plain weird for him to be able to mentally control birds to me - I think they did it because they want him being more a Normal Guy with Tech Stuff, with product placement being a nice bonus thing
>>47140305
Telekinesis and telepathy is way easier to explain to normies than chaos magic and probability control
>>47140305
>>47140447
Really, the only thing I like about the Vision is the knowledge that once the Infinity War starts, you're going to get to see his forehead ripped apart.
>>47140380
Fucking this. There's no real sense of tension or stakes, when something like Civil War ends up with zero causalities, one cripple in a super-robo-suit, and a bunch of scraped knees. It really hit me as sort of tonally awkward when you have Spiderman just being an amazed kid fighting beside and against some of his heroes, and then you have Tony getting buildings knocked ontop of him and suffering extensively injuries and bloodloss.
>>47140515
I don't disagree. I suppose I'm more just annoyed with the fact they made Redwing into a drone, rather than just excluding the character altogether. Or maybe just have some hilariously retarded shit when he has the falcon equivalent of a K9, more traditional falconer rather than a full on bird-mancer.
>>47140517
Then at least let her keep her fear magic that she had in Ultron. Now, she's nothing more than "pew pew mind bullets." Or, just try and assume audiences would be vaguely smart enough to get the general idea of, "She fucks with luck" and toss out a scene of two that's along the lines of the Quicksilver's bits in Days of Future Past. A fight-scene that resolves itself with Rube Goldberg-level luck.
>>47140165
Heck, even the Vision blames everything on him.
>>47140691
I kinda figured her not using the fear magic was literally her not WANTING to use it, considering what it did last time. The whole Ultron disaster wouldn't have happened if she hadn't been using that stuff on someone who could ACT on what he saw, after all, so she may well have made the conscious decision to never use it again.
>>47136943
Both were Chaotic Evil.
>>47140380
>>47140581
>Tension
>Stakes
>Take note Hollywood, death is literally the only way to have these things. Literally no other way.
>I know Quicksilver died, but I'm going say that doesn't count because I don't want it to.
Did anyone get a laugh out of seeing Captain America and Bucky together kicking the shit out of Germans AGAIN?
>>47140403
>Stark is alone on the compound,
Did you miss Vision and Rhodey?
>>47138158
Speaking of that, what actually happened to Red Skull?
I mean, when the cube zapped him it appeared to open up a vista of space that he was sucked away into, and then the first Avenger the cube was directly shown to work as a gateway to some other part of the galaxy.
Is he still out there somewhere chilling with Thanos?
>>47144017
>I know Quicksilver died, but I'm going say that doesn't count because I don't want it to.
It was a self-contained single film throwaway death, only happened as a plot point to set up for later Wanda angst.
Kill a core Avenger, and shit will SRSFAEC with a quickness.
>>47144139
He gone because Elrond didn't want to do it anymore
>>47140165
You left out the part where his response to hearing about the babby crushing was to bring a child into potentially-lethal combat.
>>47138027
>>47138158
dont worry, agents of shield isnt canon
>watching marvel shite
>wasting a thread on marvel shite
>>47145242
There was a HYDRA agent buying Cross Particles in Ant-Man.
I'm so fucking annoyed with superhero movies nowadays bringing in characters that have literally no resemblance to their comic book characters. Zemo has absolutely nothing in common with his comic book character, aside from his name. Even Lex Luthor in Bats v Supes still had the whole kyrptonite and fights Superman shit, in addition to being the Joker and nothing at all like Lex. But there is absolutely zero reason to call Zemo by that name.
>>47145579
It was a deliberate bluff. It doesn't make him more like the character but I can see exactly why they did it. They got us looking where they wanted, making the assumptions they wanted.
>>47145682
>teehee, the Mandarin isn't -actually- the Mandarin
>teehee, Lex Luthor isn't -actually- Lex Luthor
>teehee, Helmut Zemo isn't -actually- Helmut Zemo
>teehee, Starlord's dad isn't -actually- Starlord's dad
>etc, etc
It's just fucking annoying. Besides, normies don't even know who the fuck Zemo is, so it's not like they're really bluffing 90% of the audience. Plus, you're turning Zemo into even more of a literal who while Nathan Fillion's already been cast for Wonder Man. So I reckon we can go ahead and expect him to also be completely rewritten in terms of his origin story.
>>47145876
>teehee, the Mandarin isn't -actually- the Mandarin
Well, that one is implied to ACTUALLY exist. The actor got himself offed for insulting him with that portrayal.
So that was more 'The Mandarin IS the Mandarin but he wasn't the guy in the movie'
>>47144123
Who gives a fuck about a robot and a cripple.
In other news I feel really bad for Hawkeye's family.
>>47144145
No, it was filmmaking by accounting.
Fox and Marvel were playing chicken with two characters that nobody has ever given three fucks about ever*. The X men came out first, and their version of Quicksilver was badass enough that Marvel just went 'welp' and shot theirs in the head.
(*Okay, not fair. Maybe, MAYBE, somebody out there gives a shit about Scarlet Witch, because Marvel heroines are so shitty that it's easy to be in their top-tier. But nobody, NOBODY, has ever given a shit about Quicksilver.)
>>47137373
beautiful
>>47140877
But Tony's point isn't that suits would've stopped any of this, he just wants people to feel safer. He clearly doesnt give a shit about Ross
>>47145876
>teehee, the Mandarin isn't -actually- the Mandarin
Like >>47145973 said, there's a short video (like 10-15 minutes long) that chronicles Iron Man 3's Mandarin days in prison. If memory serves, he's casually enjoys the celebrity status he has amongst the inmates in the prison for standing up to Iron Man 3. Suddenly a prison break occurs from a group outside, break Mandarin out, who is confused - and slightly terrified - at how efficient (ie., brutal) they are at freeing him. He finally gets tossed into a vehicle and driven off, and inside he asks something along the lines of, "so... who do you work for?"
The reply is along the lines of, "a man who is VERY pissed at you besmirching his good name."
>>47145973
This "revealation" only followed the backlash to Mandarin's portayal in the Iron Man 3.
>>47146366
Honestly, I'm amazed this happened at all.
I figured Marvel was being very, very careful about this to keep the internet from accidentally exploding in Yellow Peril accusations.
>>47144018
You know I hadn't thought of that, but now that you mention it.
ã…‹ã…‹ã…‹ã…‹ã…‹ã…‹
>>47140305
>Cap's most famous quote
It's a Mark Twain quote; Cap cites it as such in the comic. In the film it's a paraphrase.
>>47146352
Huh, color me impressedand yellow.Don't suppose you have a link to that video? I always found it weird that they made two shitty Mandarins, after they'd built up the character so effectively across the course of three Iron Man movies. Fuck, that propoganda film from 3? Top notch. And it isn't even like you have to use a straight-up copy of his origins from the comics. Could easily swap his alium tech to the dudes that invaded during the Avengers rather than Fing Fang Foom's bros.
...and speaking of Fing Fang Foom, Nextwave movie when? Seems like the logical thing to follow Deadpool.
Couldn't understand why Tony never called Ross on his shit considering Ross wasn't being reigned in when he illegally provided a defective Super Soldier Serum to Blonsky, playing a major part in his becoming the Abomination and wrecking Harlem.
Iron Man argues that, by signing the Sokovia Accords and giving the world's governments control over the Avengers, the will achieve order that will benefit the welfare of others. This is Lawful Good, especially since Iron Man bends the law at the end when following it wouldn't be Good (which is what a Lawful Good character would do, and what a Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil character would never do).
Captain America argues that, by signing the Sokovia Accords, they'll give up their freedom to choose the right thing, and questions a strong government (because agendas change, and what if they decide to send them into a situation that they don't think is good, or keep them out of a situation where they need to help others). This is Chaotic Good.
>>47144018
I noticed this on my second viewing.
>>47145876
It's almost as if these films are adaptations and not direct translations of the source material. I'm mean, I'm sure they could have explained that Helmut Zemo is the child of a Cap villain that hasn't appeared in a film before that was raised under the ideals of the Third Reich and to destroy Captain America who halfway through the film becomes a byronic villain who seeks to rule the world to save it from itself, but I doubt they could spare the screentime for the mind-transfer into the comatose body of his Counter-Earth version. And really, if you don't have a mind-transfer into the Counter-Earth version of himself, you don't have Zemo.
>>47146831
It's something he doesn't know about because they silenced it and basically shifted all blame on Harlem to the Hulk (something that isn't hard to do because it's not like the bystanders would be able to tell Hulk and the Abomination apart).
>>47146884
>It's something he doesn't know about
The Incredible Hulk's stinger was Tony meeting with Ross to discuss if Abomination could be made to join the Avengers Initiative. Tony knows about it.
>>47146884
No, but they were fighting in the middle of the street so it's not like people would be unaware that there is another giant muscle guy.
>>47146831
Because Marvel is desperate to forget the techincally-canon Hulk movie exists. And likewise can't make new solo Hulk movies because of retarded rights issues. Goodbye, Planet Hulk.
>>47146845
So then why use the name Zemo, which means nothing to the general audience but triggers comic book autists? You could have just called him Slav Squatinov, and nothing at all would have been lost except you'd have made a relatively interesting and unique character for your film.
Like I really loved the character in the movie, but it shares nothing -at all- with the actual Zemo aside from his name.
>>47137985
You seem to be misunderstanding a fundamental part of HYDRA. Theres ALWAYS alwaysalwaysalways more HYDRA. Theres never not. That their whole point. HYDRA at that point is so many organizations under different names that most don't even know they're HYDRA.
Put it this way. Let say the team fucks up that "last" remaining HYDRA base. Nazi's Incorporated at roughly the same time gets a memo from the boss man. Before you know it they're wearing HYDRA uniforms and slapping HYDRA logo's on everything in sight and out steps the red skull or some ripoff version of him or fucking something and the camera pans out to "Hail, HYDRA!"
Ad infinitum.
>>47146902
He knows the official story: the Abomination tried to stop the Hulk from rampaging in Harlem, but failed. Hence why he's talking about Abomination joining them, because he was told Abomination was a good guy.
This is in Marvel One-Shot: The Consultant, which explains the stinger.
http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Marvel_One-Shot:_The_Consultant
>They see him as a "war hero" and blame his fight in New York City with Bruce Banner on Banner himself.
Stark doesn't know the truth that Abomination was bad, let alone the stuff about stealing defective super serum.
>>47138002
>Yes, because cap explicitly stops him killing at least 3 dudes
Wrong. He even says something along the lines of "I'm not going to kill anyone".
Even then, this is MCU, a punch from a bionic arm sends you through a wall but that isn't lethal.
>>47146929
One, triggering comic autists is fun. Two, you'd get a ton of bitching for using an OC instead of an established character, even if it's not comic accurate. Three, studio mandate.
>>47146950
Ah, that's interesting. Pretty smart of them really, left them open to use either Abom or Ross in the future. Thanks for clarifying that for me.
>>47140877
I was going to make a lenghty post then I saw this.
Perfect.
Cap can't be Chaotic anything, he only goes against authorities based on circumstances, not out of any specific sentiment or ideology against them.
>>47146831
>Couldn't understand why Tony never called Ross on his shit considering Ross wasn't being reigned in when he illegally provided a defective Super Soldier Serum to Blonsky, playing a major part in his becoming the Abomination and wrecking Harlem.
And this is why the Accords position is untenable in the movies almost as much as the pro-registration camp in the comics.
The two biggest proponents (Stark and Ross) are both responsible for half of the bad shit that happened and are just trying to shift the blame.
>>47136943
> Which one was Lawful Good, and which one was Chaotic Good?
They are both Chaotic Evil.Did Marvel make yet another comicbook-inspired movie? Will there be memes again?
>>47147068
Depending on your interpretation, following your own set of rules (or the rules of the greater good, this time depending on your interpretation of Cap') can be Lawful or Chaotic
>>47137794
Except bucky literally states he wont kill any of them, and they are framing him anyway so ...
>>47147068
Cap is good first and chaotic,lawful,neutral second. And he occasionally fucks up more and more as the story progresses on being good. So what does that tell you about his stance on being chaotic, lawful, or neutral?
Hell in the comics he actually stops and says only HIS morals matter and that literally everyone elses moral compass is wrong.
Serious it was one of those moments where the fucking schizophrenic shouts to the whitelabs coats "I'm not wrong! You're wrong! I'm the only one thats sane!"
>>47145876
Zemo was by far the weakest part of the film
>>47147168
I saw a few posts on /co/ that made a good point. While this Zemo has little to nothing to do with the character, it wouldn't be acceptable for a completely OC character to actually win, so naming him Zemo is a compromise.
>>47147168
Definitely wasn't expecting him to try to blow his own brains out.
>>47147091
Following that, anyone is lawful as long as they follow their own set of rules. You could argue that Robin Hood is lawful because he follows his own set of rules. That's ridiculous.
That's not how lawful works. Lawful is about believing in authority. Captain America no longer believes in authority and actively distrusts it without giving it a chance. He believes in their individual freedom to choose to do right. That's chaotic.
>>47147168
I actually really liked him. Nothing but determination and mortal skill and he downed an organization made of gods.I REALLY liked that he didn't get a big villain fight. He was a clever instigator, not a guy who turns up in Kryptonite powered armour to slug his opposition.
That and he's been set up for later use if they want to have someone start a Prison Break on the Raft.
>>47147314
>You could argue that Robin Hood is lawful because he follows his own set of rules.
Actually, you can argue that Robin Hood in some versions IS Lawful.
He's fighting for King Richard the Lionhearted, the true king of England against a man who has stolen his authority and is running his country in the ground.
>>47147185
>>47147168
yeah he should have used his super glue to kill people
>>47147357
Yep, some versions of Robin Hood are lawful, but not because "he's following his own set of rules."
>>47147168
>>47147185
>>47147339
Civil War was a stealth origin story for Zemo. He's supposed to start acting in a Loki-like roll and Feige and co really want to do Thunderbolts.
>>47147575
Thunderbolts would be god damn awesome. Likely kick the crap out of Suicide Squad.
>>47145242
Yes it is, they're explicitly the reason the Avengers found HYDRA at the beginning of Age of Ultron and basically everything happening in it is building up to the Inhumans movie in a few years
>>47147707
>everything happening in it is building up to the Inhumans movie in a few years
Inhumans movie has been scrapped in favour of Black Widow and Spider-Man.
>>47147707
>Inhumans movie
it isn't on the MCU time table anymore
the guy that was pushing for the Inhumans movie is no longer involved in the MCU movies
Hey, quick question, since I trust you guys better than /co/ on such matters: How is this movie when compared to the version of the story in the comics?
I *loathed* the comic, since it squandered a lot of potential on bullshit and faffing around, with barely any redeeming moments far and few between.
>>47147761
>>47147781
What? fuck, I missed that. A little disappointed now.
>>47147781
Hmmm... May be they made a same deal with Fox, as they made with Sony?
>>47147849
You'll hate it. It keeps to overarching themes such as ironman and cap hating each other but how it gets there is by completely different though tangentially related paths. It even skews almost all origin stories but the themes and faffing remain over all.
>>47147339
Was really hoping we would see (or at least get a mention or nod too) of abomination being held on the raft on ice
>>47147870
>>47147895
Ike Perlmutter works in Marvel Comics and he hates anything they don't have the rights to. X-men and Fantastic Four are on his shit list.
Its why X-men have a smaller profile, the Fantastic Four book is on hiatus, and the sudden explosion of Inhumans everywhere.
He and Kevin Feige got in an argument and Feige won. Perlmutter and the comics folk have no say in the MCU now. Perlmutter really wanted an Inhumans movie, Feige not so much. And so the Inhumans movie no longer has a release date and rumors of its cancellation float about cyberspace.
Its for the best, unless you want them becoming discount X-men
>>47140437
Nuke is in Jessica Jones, the Netflix series. He's not quite as hammy and fun as the comics, but he fits the tone of the show.
>>47136943
Cap was lawful good. He stayed true to his personal moral compass and does what he feels is right. Stark flip flops about trying to assuage his guilt because he keeps facilitating huge disasters that get dozens of people killed. He does what he thinks is right because someone else tells him it's right and appeals to his survivors guilt.
>>47147761
>>47147781
I never really followed those wacky moon mutants anyway. What the hell would it have even been about? That makes as much sense to me as a "Marvel's Atlantis" movie
>>47147849
Well it left out the really sketchy things like the negative zone prison (though there was some sort of ocean one Tony at least didn't help build) and the robot Thor clone. Otherwise it was basically Winter Soldier Pt2 with less Jason Borne stuff and a big fight scene between a lot of heroes near the end.
>>47148064
B-but Black Bolt was the first mutei
>>47147849
the only thing similar to the comics is that there's an internal fight between heroes, that's it.But the comic was awful and I liked the movie a lot though.
>>47148153
That was weak, Carlos.
>>47137893
>Wish they had Cap himself say it tho
Literally my only issue with the movie
wouldnotsignsokoviaaccords/10
my main problem with all these movies is they are now just 1 hour long trailers for avengers films that ended up being trailers to infinity war.
i imagine after Thanos they are going to be stage setting for Galactus for the next few movies or they are going to be sitting in the meeting room going "Fuck...what do we do now"
Iron man is lawful good because the established governements have agreed on a set of laws.
Cap is chaotic good because whilst he is breaking the law (Dredd is pissed) he is still doing the right thing
being completely honest the only reason Scarlet witch and Black Widow are in there is because Marvel has fuck all female supers and they need something to hold the feminists at bay.....
>>47148740
Dont get me wrong i love the series though and they have crafted something that is beyond the scope of almost anything that has being done before (Movies, tv shows, comics, all in the same universe cross media greatness) and they did it successfully
DC failed.. and it hurts to admit that
Arrow and Flash are good but constantine flopped
New 52 animated series are awesome
but the live action has failed
the comic series has failed (they are rebooting it so hard right now)
(cross media fail)
DC could have been better....they tried to be better... and they failed...
>>47148740
>being completely honest the only reason Scarlet witch and Black Widow are in there is because Marvel has fuck all female supers and they need something to hold the feminists at bay.....
Captain Marvel will be turning up and that will be fun.
I wonder if they'll actually cover her alcoholism. They've been kinda hesitant to show major character flaws for the main female characters so far.
>>47148814
>the comic series has failed (they are rebooting it so hard right constantly)
I fixed that for you. DC comics: Buy one retcon, get one free!
>>47148814
>comics
Nope
Comics have done all of this in a way more complicated fashion, same goes for cross media too because cartoons and comic universes have crosses
Movie and comic have nothing to do with each other, only tv and movies
Plus comic stories and connections are always more intricate
But I am sure you don't even read comic books
>the comic series has failed
>DC could have been better....they tried to be better... and they failed...
Now this is a thing I actually hate. DC comics has always been consistently superior to Marvel over the years, all the greatest ongoing series in history of comic books are DC, all the greatest graphic novels are always DC or DC imprints, mainstream DC shits over retardation that is going on with Marvel and indie DC like Omega Men is golden.
This is just the effect of Movies and PR fucking up DC because quality wise DC has not failed.
>>47148852
I never understood why people complain about reboots? Canon in general is cancer and if everything would go full Grant Morrison mode where any writer can create their own canon everything would be better.
Marvel is no better because it doesn't reboot shit, just makes all of their characters immortal and unaging, then makes an event that tweaks an existing reality, but no it's not reboot!
>>47148924
>I never understood why people complain about reboots? Canon in general is cancer and if everything would go full Grant Morrison mode where any writer can create their own canon everything would be better.
I less have an issue with Reboots in general and more an issue with DC never really getting a stable continuity for too long. It's hard to get invested in ongoing stories when so many of them get cut short by 'Shit, sales are down. We need a new event leading up to a reboot!'
They overuse what is a fine tool on it's own.
>>47148945
Eh, as I said I am the opposite of that idea. I believe that continuity should not be a rigid thing at all. Writers should be able to pick and choose and ultimately it will result in better stories.
Look at all the best stories like All-Star Superman, they are more of an amalgam of different continuities where author took what he wanted. And if a group of authors wishes to have their own long going continuity they can do that
>>47148846
To be honest, aren't they gimping all the characters flaws? Iron Man 2 had Tony's alcoholism stemming from Plant Juice for crying out loud
>>47148977
I think it works better when there is a stable baseline. It doesn't have to be super rigid but there needs to be 'This is the core of the characters'. It allows writers to work with characters without needing to establish who they are precisely from the very start.
That doesn't work too well in modern DC where they chop and change willy nilly and don't let people get a good feel for who the characters are before they move onto something else.
Still, high five for All-Star Superman. Fantastic story, one of my favorites of all time.
>>47149020
Iron Man 2 was honestly the most flawed marvel movie imo.
Oddly enough because they didn't do what's served them so well with stuff like Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant Man. They didn't take a risk.
They had the chance to really work with Tony's issues and show him for the messed up person he is and tell my favorite story of Iron Man's, Demon in a Bottle.
They chickened out with some very half assed 'I'm drunk and stupid. Don't worry, I don't do serious harm to anyone though!'. I'm not saying superhero movies should be super serious (Ask DC how that's going) but they shouldn't half-ass a serious idea.
>>47148064
In the comics, Teragen Mists were appearing on Earth, randomly making Inhumans.
For some reason, this was killing off mutants, but also sterilizing them so there wouldn't be any more.
So...Marvel's plan was to take their traditional metaphor for minorities, gas them to death, and replace them with a race that has a blood purity council and a secret moon base.
Glad we decided against using this as a Final Solution to Fox.
>>47148846
They've been kinda hesitant to show major character flaws for the main female characters so far.
Jessica jones? May not be in the movies (yet) but the shows are part of the same continuity.
>>47149079
>Jessica jones? May not be in the movies (yet) but the shows are part of the same continuity.
Yeah, I was mostly talking about the movies.
Though the movies do have to deal with 'Having a female character with issues gives a much higher percentage of female characters with issues' which makes it trickier to do well.
>>47149079
>the shows are part of the same continuity.
That's what the shows want, but not what MCU is doing
For example there have been some actors that have been in both media with different roles, see Sousa from Agent Carter who played a random police officer in Avengers, or that black lady they picked to be Luke Cage who played the mom of dindu nofin in Civil War
MCU so far isn't trying to build an universe with the shows, they do their own thing and forget about Agents of Shield, Netflix or whatever
Cap = CG
Stark = NG
Vision = LG
>>47147081
I would argue that the registration movement has a lot more weight behind it in the comics because of the sheer WEIGHT of supers in there, there are so many more supers wrecking shit on a regular basis that you really can't let them go unaccounted for. In the movies, you have Iron Man in 2008 and then everything else comes after, whereas in the comics you've had crazy shit like that occuring for literally all of history, you have mutants who don't belong to Fox legally (and are fucking everywhere)...
>>47149424
I thought the idea was supers WERE everywhere. Just their knowledge and activities have been suppressed and they keep their shit low key. That is until now when shits going down and gods and aliens are duking it out in the open and fucking stark is riding arond in a gold and hot rod red blasting shit left and right while posing for the camera so now everyones got a free pass.
>>47149293
Surely Vision would be Neutral good? I'm not too hot on DnD alignments, but Vision doesn't put his opinions in any of his justifications for why he does anything. He's trying to keep everyone alive and together, even if it may just be a fleeting victory.
>>47149424
Fox bought mutants, the x-gen and other stuff, even if you want to use a mutant nobody you can't actually call him mutant or similar.
Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver aren't mutants or kids of Magneto in comics just as a way to work around that.
>>47148945
But then you also get the New Events that are some of the best parts of DC.
Motherfuckin' Flashpoint, man. Hell, I loved it more than what came before and after it.
>>47136943
MCU Tony is Chaotic Fuckup
>>47149709
Say gnome, less words same meaning
>>47136943
Neither. Captain America is Lawful Evil and Ironman is Chaotic Neutral.
>>47137985
What do you not understand about the phrase: "cut off one head and two more will grow in its place"?
>>47149587
Should've just called them Gandalf's kids.
Would've been way cheaper to get the rights for that, I'm sure.
>>47149692
>Shit-tier taste detected.
>>47136943
How'd Tony know aboutParker?
>>47136943
It shows how shit the alignment system is, because Cap ordinarily respects the law more than Tony does, but in this case believes the law is doing wrong.
Generally speaking if your law makes Steve Rogers an outlaw and Tony Stark supports it, your law is shit.
>>47140305
What a fucking retard.
>>47150392
>your law is shit
To be fair, that was the whole point of the movie.
I honestly don't understand how people can actually defend the accords.
>>47150916
Ideally, there should be provisions in place for this sort of metahuman thing along with a revolution in modern society towards placing metahumans appropriately in society without improper fear, bias, or abuse. But in the MCUverse, we've seen more than enough examples of the bad guys using publicly funded government resources, organizations, and entire nation states to break the rules. In this case, you can't hold the good guys to these strict arbitrary rules when the bad guys bend, break, and toss away the rules entirely along with innocent lives.
Tony does it because he feels guilty for all the shit hes done and he wants to feel responsible. Cap has the moral high ground because to take responsibility is to take action. Tony ends the movie behind his desk, Cap ends the movie on the front line.
>>47149424
I agree that registration in the comics was more reasonable of a stance, but over a couple of issues they ended up with cloned murderbots, negative zone concentrazione camps and a death squad of supervillains. Any pretense of balance between the two stances went out the window in order to make a political statement.
>>47149293
Vison in AoU was Neutral Good
Vision in Civil War is Lawful Neutral
>>47136943
Iron Man is evidently still suffering from PTSD(because it doesn't go away). However he is still one of the few characters with a civilian sensibility as to how dangerous they all are. This is motivated by guilt from his own complicity in war crimes as a weapons manufacturer(and part of the avengers), as well as his own experiences fighting super powered opponents who think nothing of collateral damage. His motivations are to regulate the system and place onus on the world as a whole to come together in combating super villains. While his methods are flawed, his intentions are good.
I'd say Iron Man is, depending on the situation, lawful good or lawful neutral. iron Man is unlikely to waveer from this position and his guilt for hurting his friends will cement him as generally on the side of law. The only way I could see him turning would be if the opportunity to kill Bucky arose.
(Captain America in next part.)
>>47151272
Captain America is a genetically enhanced super soldier chosen specifically because he maintained a ridiculous and unrealistic sense of right and wrong. Over the course of his time in the avengers, this moral code has been warped. The events of Winter Soldier have led him to believe that authority figures are, without fail, unreliable. Thus he feels that only he has the sound moral judgment to decide the correct response to threats like Hydra etc. He allows his emotional attachment to Bucky to blind him to the fact that his old friend hs a dangerous and unstable killer. This is perhaps more indicative of Captain America feels an obligation to make up for failing Bucky instead of an actual belief that Bucky is good or redeemable.
Captain America deems the system, and by extension the rule of law, as being inefficient because they allow bad people to take advantage of loopholes. This, however means that Captain America feels it is alright to disregard the system and replace it with his own will as absolute judgment of right and wrong.
So I would argue that Captain America is chaotic good, but could easily be swayed to chaotic neutral or chaotic evel by some mistake of judgment on his own part.
>>47151272
>>47151282
TL;DR-
Stark is tired of being responsible for horrible shit so he trusts the system to make the right choice
Lawful (good/neutral)
Cap has trust issues and so fixates on saving his friend and implying his own order on things
Chaotic Good but easily changed.
>>47150330
Plot.
>>47150330
He's rich. He bought the rights back from Sony.
Duh.
>>47151282
More or less my view as of >>47140305
A lot of people seem to assume that Captain America has some sense of obedience to the American government, when it's been pretty consistent throughout the comics that he owes his allegiance to the American dream, more than any politician or bureaucrat.
>>47148814
>Arrow, Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, and Gotham are good
>Constantine got cancelled by the network but was a cult hit, and Matt Ryan's Constantine was so good that the CWverse has signed him on for yearly Halloween episodes.
>52 animated series are awesome
>Nolan Batmans are a widespread success, and the WBverse is working on righting itself, which the new Batfleck-written, directed, and starred film will surely help correct.
>Comic series is doing what it has literally always done for the past decade or two
>>47151605
>Legends of Tomorrow
If there isn't Booster Gold in the second season, I quit. I need either a Nextwave movie or a Booster Gold + Blue Beetle buddy-hero show in my life. Beelze Burger when?
>>47151605
I thought the general consensus was that Gotham was pretty poor, if only because it's a batman show and batman never appears in it?
>>47148814
Arrow hasn't been good for like 2 seasons
>>47151860
>1: It's a Jim Gordon show, not a Batman show.
>2: Batman is in it. You're watching the young Bruce Wayne develop into the man that will eventually become Batman, as he begins to understand how the city work, develops his own philosophy based off of those around him, begins to train with Alfred as well as a brief jaunt in the streets with Selena.
>3: The general consensus is Fish Mooney is an awful character in the second half of Season 1, alongside Barbara at the same time. Other than those two characters are those two periods, the show is receiving praise from critics, particularly in this season.
You aren't watching Gotham to watch Batman fight crime, you're watching it to see the development of Gotham and its residents into a Year One scenario.
Both. Lawful Good means you believe in law and order as the best way to maintain freedom and quality of life for all, but two Lawful Good people can radically, RADICALLY disagree on how to implement it.
Lawful Good nation A may go to war with LG nation B over a given claim of land, a Lawful Good democracy may view a Lawful Good theocracy with UNRELENTING DISGUST and vice versa.
Even if you interpret Lawful Good as LAW OF THE LAND, guess fucking what, that doesn't always agree either. State and Federal Law can disagree.
LG vs LG fights are by far the most interesting.
LG vs CE or CG vs LE fights are the most stirring.
>>47150330
Tony knows everything that SHIELD knows and SHIELD had a running list back from the 20's on all super and abnormal humans.
>>47152165
But SHIELD died 2 years ago and Spidey got his powers 6 months ago
>>47152190
Money buys happiness, anon. And tony is happy when he knows whats coming and can prep for it like a shittier more paranoid and mentally damaged batman.
>>47150330
YouTube videos and a series of sentient supercomputers that can do round the clock research and surveillance.
>>47152299
But anon we have similar things and we still don't have proper UFO videos!
>>47152285
>shittier than batman
That's not true! That's impossible!
>>47152321
Name the last time a UFO destroyed a mid-sized city.
Marvel is so fucking bad.
Anyways, in comics Iron man was LG I guess, and cap was CG.
Cap was right in the comics ftr, but iron man is broken stupid garbage.
>>47152745
I'm totally lost here, are you implying Spider-man destroyed a mid-sized city?
>>47152768
no, passerby dropping in, lost track of the reply chain.
I was interpreting the 'don't have evidence of UFOs' argument to be going the other way. mb famalam.
>>47151282
>but could easily be swayed to chaotic neutral or chaotic evel by some mistake of judgment on his own part.
If he thinks he is doing good for the whole than he is good even if you don't agree with his means, or even if he's actually wrong.
I'd honestly give Tony something like LN during the civil war arc.
>>47152829
>b-b-b-buh! From MY point of view I'M the good guy! IM not wrong you are!
>whats that? You say everyone says i'm wrong? Thats not right thats wrong! Why? Because i say so!
>here lemme just cover me ears!
>LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG! LALALALALALA!
>>47151282
Cap only was trying to avoid that the government killed Bucky without even a trial, they wanted him dead and he was avoiding that. When they got him into custody he seemed ok as long as Bucky had a fair trial.
As for:
>The events of Winter Soldier have led him to believe that authority figures are, without fail, unreliable
In Avengers the world council wanted to nuke NY, the distrust has been growing up since before WS
>>47153020
Obviously if he's seen compelling evidence that he is in fact wrong and chooses to ignore it, he's not really good, just rationalizing. But there's a huge difference between that and just not agreeing with other good guys over methods and ideals. And the fact is that the vast majority of people would consider his actions at the least well intended for the whole, if not objectively correct.
>>47153122
Yeah, after Bucky got locked up in the middle, Cap was actually pretty down with everything that was happening until Tony let it slip that he had Wanda under house arrest by a synthetic cosmic entity that is more or less still programmed to serve and obey him.
And yeah, people tend to forget that in the Avengers, the UN was just wanting to nuke NYC.
>So we have to kill Bucky, Cap, sucks to be you
>Wait what?
>Sorry, we have to put him down even if the only evidence we have is a pixelated white and black photo
>Fuck no
Later
>Fuck you, Cap, why you had to intervene? we almost had him, now we can only put him in a cell instead of summary execute him
Later
>We have to put you between bars, all of you
>Tony this is all the scheme of a bad dude who is trying to blame Bucky to keep you focused in us so he can wake up 6 super powered crazy hydra dudes
>Sorry, Cap, sucks you be you, you're going down
Yep, Cap is clearly evil only thinking in himself and how to benefit from the situation
>>47153238
>wake up 6 super powered crazy hydra dudes
Gotta love Zemo executing them in their sleep instead. Is Zemo going to become MCU's equivalent of Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe?
>>47153376
Yeah, that got me by surprise, I even moan at the idea. Good job there Marvel
>>47151923
My bad then, I only saw the first season. I enjoyed the infrequent episodes of S1, I recall really enjoying the Black Mask episode alongside the Electricutioner who escaped Arkham.
That said, I suppose my main beef with it stems that all of its characters were, to me, supporting characters to Batman. They exist better as people for Batman to play off rather than their own people I guess? Jim Gordon is a better character as the dependable liaison of Batman, not as a main character in a show. I really liked Alfred in the show however, much better than Michael Caine waxing philosophical that we got lumped with. Penguin too, I could've happily watched him all season without pirate-eye Mooney and Barbara lampooning about.
>>47137893
Really? I liked how they took it away from him (but still had it around and relevant to his character) because it's so damn moral absolutist.
I like the sentiment, but I absolutely hate the phrasing.
>>47139150
Nah, as always Tony only made the wrong choices.
>>47153617
Yeah, the first season is definitely the rockiest, and once Fish dies, the show's quality improves dramatically. Also, you really understand you're not in Gotham anymore when they straight up kill a canon character in the finale of S1. That shit caught me by surprise. There's a lot of really neat character development, and I really enjoyed the struggles of Butch in S1. This song still chokes me up from the scene it was used in.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SySGlSLXJ9E
As far as it being a cast of supporting characters, that's actually kind of the point of the show in and of itself. The fact that even with all the support in the world, Jim is helpless to really make a difference in Gotham. And he rarely even gets much support at all. You get to really see -why- Gotham needed a Batman, instead of just 'muh parents are deeeead.' You get to sink into the diseased city, and see how these characters struggle to cope with the world they're living in. Plus, Harvey Bullock in this show alone makes it worth watching.
>Jim Gordon
Here, you get to see him mature into the dependable liason, as he struggles through his own period of being a brash young idealist, being broken down by the city
>Alfred
Yeah, Sean Pertwee definitely has my praise as one of the best Alfred's there has ever been. Definitely get the understanding that his motherfucker really was SAS before becoming a butler. Fuck, he goes up against Tigress and survives the encounter.
>Penguin
This dude's really dope, and I'd probably tag him and Riddler as some of the best recurring villains to come out of the show. Though I am pleasantly surprised by BD Wong's Strange.
>Barbara
She actually comes into her own after some really shitty scenes and even episodes in S1. I mean, I'd argue she's probably the best candidate for the Joker atm? She's a really lovely actress when she's dancing on the crazy side.
>>47153794
>best candidate for the Joker
Joker in Gotham is a curse, not a person. It's a recurring thing that goes around in the background fucking with shit. It doesn't even really start with the smiley carnival kid; remember the Red Hood episode?
>>47152829
My Japanese animes agree with you, so it must be true.
>>47153767
Look I enjoyed the film but Stark had some real plot-induced stupidity to not put him on Zemo's case until the last twenty minutes. If he was on that thread a little earlier he'd be right by results and means.
>>47153875
Oh sure, that entire final fight in the bunker was classic Idiot Ball writing. Zemo is RIGHT THERE, fucking GET HIM. Oh your parents died BOO HOO FUCKING GET ZEMO.
>>47153857
Keep in mind I'm not saying that a person fucking everything up because they think they're helping shouldn't be stopped. Quite the opposite. Good does not mean Correct is a two way street
>>47153794
And speaking of the Joker, I've really enjoyed the way that the show handles that. We've gotten numerous little Jokerettes, but nothing really conclusive and I doubt we ever will in the series. Instead, you just get little aspects of the character floating about, sort of like percolating ideas that eventually manifest in the eventual villain himself.
You've got the recurring down-on-his-luck comedian that's never anything more than a background extra, there's the psychotic circus bastard, there's the Red Hood affair, there's Barbara, there's the owner of that punk rock club that espouses a more counter-culture and less murderous aspect of the Joker's philosophy, etc.
>>47153850
Eh, I wouldn't take the gypsy curse so literally. It's more of an idea, than anything else. The fact that Gotham had never really seen such a completely deranged, violent anarchist before.
>>47153726
>hating Twain's phrasing
Yuropoor detected.
>>47153920
>I wouldn't take the curse so literally
>it's more of an idea
Motherfucker how does that episode end?
That's right, it ends with guys watching images of the curse-kid and going out to commit crimes while smiling.
Gotham Joker is viral.
>>47153908
Sure, but what I'm saying is that "He believes he's good, therefore he's good" results in nonsense like a Chaotic Good Gilgamesh.
>>47150330
The better question is: How does Tony not know about everything? He can build AI's for basically everything, from managing nuclear weapons to governing his shitter. And he's one of the, if not THE richest man on the planet.
>>47153949
I don't know what series your screen shot is from so I can't comment. But if he genuinely believes he is acting for the general good (and not just himself or his immediate friends and family or even necessarily his country), then he is good, regardless of whether he is correct or not.
>>47153899
And it's really frustrating because it's an excellent fight packed full of emotion, interestingly my friend disagreed with me on this and said "I don't care about mind control I would absolutely kill the man who killed my father." so ehh.
If Tony Stark was as smart as Ton Stark, Zemo wouldn't have made it out of Austria.
>>47154040
God yeah, when Cap and Bucky are perfectly curbstomping Stark, tossing the shield back and forth to keep each other protected from blasts? That's fucking brilliant choreography, shows the characters in synch.
>>47153920
Really? I actually like Shania Twain's songs, didn't know that was from her
>>47154081
Shit, Vladimir, sometimes I can't get mad at you even if you're a dumb uncultured swine. Thanks for the laugh.
>>47153178
During an alien invasion, whilst the enemy threat was contained to New York.
It's not all that unreasonable to think that they would try to stem the tide by sacrificing a city, especially when the world is at stake.
>>47140305
>A fat black dude a few rows down actually yelled out, "That's not your line, bitch!" at the midnight release.
Wait, really?
Where did you see the movie?
>>47152829
The bad guy generally thinks they're doing good, that doesn't make them good. Unless you're in a poorly written setting, your badguy should be convinced that their actions are for the best.
>>47154589
Yeah, but it sort of defeats the purpose of whining about the civilian casualities when the Avengers stopped the alien invasion, when the option you were originally going to use was "Kill millions of civilians and hope it works."
>>47154613
Huntsville, Alabama.
>>47154679
This
>Avengers: 74 casualties
>UN intentions: 8.4 millions of casualties and bazillions of dollarios
>Conclusions: Someone has to stop the Avengers
>>47154773
>>47154679
>>47154589
Bonus points: the nuke probably wouldn't have done anything to stop the portal. Sure it might give the ones already in the city a bad time, but there's still the rest of the army.
>>47154679
The situation in Civil War was fueled by popular outrage. Something that Shiled would have no doubt had to deal with had plan-a succeeded. In a moment of pure desperation, such actions are taken, and the people responsible suffer afterwards. However throughout the films a precedent has been set for the Avengers showing up and blowing the shit out the the local environs for reasons that (while the viewing audience might now) the general public of this universe would not be made aware of.
To the average Joe Soap, Sokovia was just another bizarre super powered brawl that happened "because avengers".
>>47154817
To be fair, Skovia -was- a nother bizarre super powered brawled that happened "because Tony Stark and Bruce Banner." Who, especially after Harlem, already had a shit record. While Tony was that guy who opened dared terrorists to attack Beverly Hills.
>>47154657
The bad guy usually thinks they're doing best for themselves and those people they care about directly. If all your bad guys think they're being benevolent in general, that's fucking retarded and you should stop.
>>47154773
>UN intentions
You mean SHIELD
>>47154805
And how the fuck would they know that? They don't understand the nature of the threat but they know that it's a threat. Leaving the safety of earth in the hands of a group that were literally at each others' throats that morning isn't the kind of thing that any remotely competent politician or military leader would even countenance in such a scenario
>>47154907
>You mean SHIELD
The world council or whatever is named, it wasn't SHIELD, SHIELD wanted to avoid taht and let the Avengers deal with the situation, World Council said "nah, lets bomb NY and build condos"
>>47154907
>And how the fuck would they know that?
Gosh, I don't know, considering that Fury was able to communicate with the Avengers, perhaps the part where Stark's AI worked out that the field protecting the portal device was impenetrable. Unless the council is making its decisions without all the available intel.
>>47154907
>SHIELD
No, World Security Council, an international council formed of politicians from some of the world's most powerful countries to function as oversight for SHIELD
>>47154953
They're unlikely to trust the judgment of the guy who, in their eyes has already failed to form a controllable team. Bear in mind that as far as they know, all of Fury's actions have been in accordance with the enemy's plan
If Steve is so right, why he wears the symbol of American in the left hand? checkmate
>>47154679
>Alabama
It wasn't the same theater, but the same thing happened.
>>47155171
I said the same in my theatre, though I live in Spain, and I said it in Spanish. I didn't say the Spanish version of bitch though because here is way meaner than there.
What we're all forgetting here is that it doesn't matter what is right and wrong from a real world point of view. In the Marvel cinematic universe there will always be a plot contrivance so the good guy can be the out-and-out good guy. Civil War is the closest we'll get to a moral quandry from these films and we should all get used to that.
Which isn't to say that they aren't good film. I'm happy to sit down and watch a bunch of superheroes beat the shit out of faceless cronies, whilst secretly rooting for the bad guy when they're portrayed by a likeable actor. I just don't think we should expect a clever meta commentary on the nature of modern terrorism from aseries that's owned by Disney and is here to make money.
>>47153949
Nasu Good does not mean the Good that we know. Gilgil is absolutely CG by the standards of his world.
>>47155325
True. And I'll say something that I'll probably get shit for, but I put this and Bats v Supes on the same score as a 7/10. While this movie was more 'fun', I actually liked the moral quandry of Bats v Supes better, even if Hack Snyder butchered the delivery of it.
>>47155325
Yeah whatever Garou
>>47155379
Haven't seen it yet. My brother is an avid Superman fan and even he said that it was bad so i'm just gonna wait till it's on sale or something.
All of the Disney Franchises are gonna be like this; entertaining romps through a fictional universe without much substance beyond the occaisional romance subplot and some references to the source material to keep the "nerds" happy. Thanos is a dick because look at him. The first order are an analogy for the nazis because shut up, you didn't complain about it in the cinema, did you?
You want to think about your stories? Pick up a decent book or watch a film that's gunning for an award that's unrelated to special effects.
>>47155379
>I put this and Bats v Supes on the same score
Bait confirmed.
>>47155508
Aside from Lex more or less being the Joker, it was a perfectly fine film. It was an action movie that made you feel miserable, this was an action movie that tried to make you feel miserable but ended up just getting a few laughs. Also, Batflack alone makes up for any issue with the film, along with Gal's Wonder Woman, or at least what we saw of her. Hell, I went into the film having no interest in the Wonder Woman movie, but now I'll probably catch it in theaters.
>>47155503
It just depends on what you want from a movie, really. Don't expect it to be happy, don't expect it to be campy. But, to quote Nolan on his theory behind his Batman trilogy and the subtitle of the film
>It's always darkest before the dawn.
With that said, though, you'd be best treated by waiting for the DVD release. It's getting something akin to the Extended Cuts of the Lord of the Rings movies that adds almost an hour of run time, entire characters that were cut from the film, a bit of tweaking with some of the fights, and a bump up to an R rating. It's more or less what the movie was intended to be before they released it was four hours long.
>>47148064
I was so fucking happy when I heard about this. Especially since Perlmutter was constantly pretending to fans that the literal gassing to death of mutants in the comics (yep) so they could be replaced by inhumans had nothing to do with film rights.
I mean, shit, if you want to waste time and money trying to dislodge a brand like the X-Men and replace them with fakey chinesey X-Mennu, that's your choice. But don't piss in my eye and try to tell me it's raining.
>>47155379
>I actually liked the moral quandry of Bats v Supes better
What moral quandry was there even?
All I remember is that bats and supes were both being shat upon by the public, and both thought "I have to STOP that guy!"
>>47156136
Superman's moral dilemma
>I have all this power I don't need to use but do because I want to any people are scared of me?
Batman
>MARTHA? WHY DO YOU KNOW THAT NAME? WHY DO YOU KNOW A WOMAN'S NAME?
>>47155379
>>47155613
This must be bait.
There was so much wrong with BvS, it's not even funny. You can't even laugh at it. It's just a nonstop demonstration of how not to write characters, how not to shoot scenes, how not to pace stories, and generally just how not to make films.
I physically cringed when emotionless doll WW stumbled upon all those conveniently shot teasers for the rest of the JL.
The entire plot only works because both Batman and Superman act like weak-willed, mopey idiots without the ability to think in any way.
>>47156136
For Bats, it was seeing Superman as more suspicious people might, especially after the events of Man of Steel. Here is a foreign entity, some alien god who holds in his hand the ability to destroy all life on earth and who's only major battle was a cataclysmic event that killed hundreds of thousands to millions of people. In what, at least to the outside observer, was simply a grudge match between two alien gods. And now you've just got this asshole living on your planet, with no ability to reject or refute him, who will invariably attract more conflict.
So, Batman decided that the best course of action was a preemptive strike, assassinating Superman before he either directly or indirectly annihilated the Earth.
For Supes, it was more of tempering his ability to do good with the inevitable consequences of his interference, as well as looking to do what he could to save lives rather than destroy threats. It's a lot of the same ideas of civil war, in terms of oversight and responsibility. I mean, the climax of Man of Steel was a helluvah lot more destructive than anything in the Marvel movies, probably even including Sokovia. Plus, when he interferes, he gets shit for interfering. When he stays away, he gets shit for not doing enough.
>>47156179
>Martha
I fucking hate people that shit on this moment, because it's actually a pretty interesting. It isn't the name that's important, so much as it is the connection. I sort of wish they'd just used 'Mother' instead of Marta, because the real point of the word is that it shows to Bat that Supes is the same as he is, if not a human being than at least a parent's son. It humanizes what had previously simply been this extraterrestrial walking apocalypse, with a bit of unnecessary cheese because it's also his own mother's name.
>>47156292
Mother would have been so much better, who in their sane mind call their parents by their name? But yeah, the thing is not that they bonded over their mothers having the same name, but that they both love someone so much they will give their lives for them. Supes was literally saying "do what you have to do, but at least save my mom"
>>47156292
>I fucking hate people that shit on this moment
You mean like Zack Snyder, who shat it out?
If you wanted a moment of "oh man, you have a mom, you're a person and not some awful monster, let me treat you as a person" then a) you need to have established Batman as NOT being the kind of guy who has no trouble mutilating (and killing, in the dream sequence) regular humans and b) you maybe should have that be something that's said under very different circumstances than "literally about to kill you".
Like, what, are you trying to say that if a Gotham thug had gone "mommy!" just before Batman punched him, Batman should have stopped?
That entire fight SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED. First of all, because Superman SHOULD have been able to find Martha by hearing (the same way he found Lois who was falling) using his ludicrous super-senses (but in this movie, that power only appears to apply to things Superman wants to fuck). Second of all, when the traps failed Superman SHOULD have gone "look, I need help finding my mom, okay?" and NOT gone "FUCKIT IMMA KILL YA"
>>47156250
>teasers
Supposed to be a lot meatier in the original / Extended cut that's coming to DVD.
>emotionless doll
Damn austere warrior-princesses not being girlish teenagers.
There are four things that I was annoyed with by the movie, and otherwise I was perfectly entertained.
>Why is Lex Luthor the Joker now? Did no-one tell Eisenberg what he was doing? Holy shit, that autistic speech was cringeworthy for a man that successful becomes president in the comics.
>Why are Metropolis and Gotham as far from one another as Philly and New York? Why isn't Metropolis in the Midwest?
>Why did Supes just leave Lois at the bottom of Lexcorp? The dude could have easily just had some security goons in the lobby.
>Why doesn't Perry White know how newspapers work? Like, what the actual fuck.
>The entire plot only works because both Batman and Superman act like weak-willed, mopey idiots without the ability to think in any way.
>The entire plot only works because both Iron Man and Captain America act like weak-willed, mopey idiots without the ability to think in any way.
Shocker. It's almost as if I judge these two movies to be equal to one another.
Also, Mad Max Batman in Darkseid-controlled Earth. Fucking yes.
>>47156347
Exactly.
>>47156362
>Mommy!
No, because a Gotham thug is just some random dickweed human being. Bats was looking at Supes as a cosmic force, not as a person.
>y does Supes get angwy
Yeah, it's definitely unbelievable that after being shot, depowered, beaten, beaten, depowered, and beaten, that someone would get upset. Especially if they were already at an emotional state. I know that if my mother's life was in jeopardy and the person I was trying to talk to was trying to murder me, I'd never act that emotionally!
>>47156418
You're forgetting at what point in the fight that happens.
The fight goes:
>Superman lands. "Hey Bats."
>Walks into trap 1, shrugs it off effortlessly.
>Walks into trap 2, shrugs it off effortlessly.
>Decides "fuck it, fight is happening" and shoves Batman into a building.
Whereas SUPERMAN would have gone "you see how this isn't working, right?" and then tried to talk it out.
>>47156418
Nice job ignoring the point that Superman should have been able to find Martha just fine without Bat's help by the by.
>>47140581
nobody wanted to kill anyone, except for black panther and tony by the end. I liked the interaction between black widow and hawkeye
>are we still friends right?
>depends on how hard you hit me
that pretty much explains why the battle had no casualties and only one accident, but who cares
>>47156455
>Hey Bats
I remember him saying something in the lines
>You were right, Bruce, I need your help
>Walks into a trap
>Come on, help me here, there's much going on
>Walks into a trap
>>47156418
>Superman should act realistically.
This is why I think B v S fails, in that it fundamentally misunderstands Superman.
Superman isn't ABOUT realism. He's about idealism. The whole point of him is that he's this kind of impossibly good guy, or rather he's a good guy whose power allows him to maintain that inherent goodness. Because he's so hard too hurt, he's never been made cruel by pain. Because he can do so much, he's never been made greedy by want and so on.
Snyder had success with Watchmen by shot for shot recreating the work of actual artists. With BvS he's transparently trying to make another Watchmen but with shit to work with instead of a good source material and a fuckton of corporate tampering.
>>47156418
>Supposed to be a lot meatier in the original
That's not a good thing. They were literally a waste of time.
>Damn austere warrior-princesses not being girlish teenagers.
There's a difference between "subdued" and "this bitch can't act."
>Shocker. It's almost as if I judge these two movies to be equal to one another.
BvS' whole plot was much, much dumber. Lex's plan was full of holes. In CW, it's sorta feasible that with tempers high, one of these guys might not listen to everything the other is saying. In BvS Superman and Batman have no development together. Superman is barely a character, simply an icon the story trots out because it has to, and Batman has the reasoning skills of an actual bat.
Lex's plan shouldn't have even worked up to the point where they were facing each other.
I think you're looking at these films in a far too generalized manner. They technically have some of the same themes, but the execution in BvS is sub-par to the point where it is actually depressing that anyone thought this film was ready for viewing.
>>47137373
https://youtu.be/VoW9czgQBqE
Fucking hell man, give some other people the chance to weigh in before you just end the thread.
Next time go for a walk or something and come back later.
>>47156534
Yeah, more or less my recollection. Also, do you really think the guy that is tossing you into trap after trap and I -think- has a gun drawn at that point, is really going to do diplomacy just right off the bat?
>>47156507
Well, Tony did get the shit kicked out of him during that fight, all the way to massive bleeding and damage inside his suit.
>>47156492
Eh, movie logic. Also, I'm content to give Supes super-hearing one metropolis of range and not the entire earth.
>>47156552
>Dark Knight Returns
>shit
>not the only time Frank Miller has made something worth reading
Nigga, I'm already getting called a being a troll, but we must have entered trolls trolling trolls territory with that shit.
How come supes has never had his freakishly good hearing used against him? Other people with super hearing have been attacked with loud noises.
>>47156492
not really. Remember this superman is still new to the job, so I doubt he can recognize one person in a city, even with superpowers, and having the time to run to the alien ship that nobody has any knowledge of how it works and that is showing some dangerous signs
>>47156362
>(and killing, in the dream sequence)
And outside of the dream sequence, in which he blows people up and outright shoots them with his batmobile gadgets
>>47156697
Superman is constanly suppresing his powers all the time becouse of this reason
That's why people say that Clark is a disguise and being Superman is his real identity
>>47156697
Because it wouldn't harm him. He's invulnerable. When a sound hurts its actually your brain telling you that physical damage is occuring and hopefully you'll do something to get away from the pain or attempt to cover and protect your ears. Super man has to do none of those because of this.
>>47156712
I heard somewhere that the excuse was "but he is not directly shooting at them, is just happens that they were near the explosions". I seriously hope it is not from the directors or writers
My reasoning for this is that they are using a darker version of batman. Tired, old and pretty much embracing the idea of "maybe is better to kill them in the end". I remember the suit that had a graffity in his batcave, implied that it was from the Joker. Perhaps that's the reason why he started to go for the lawful evil route.
>>47156712
A Batman killing people in movies? Why, that's never happened before! Well, except for in the second oldest Batman movie. And its sequel. So, just since the 80's.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ULSvR6hhyI
>>47156733
Not really, Superman is the disguise, sure, he has superpowers and all of that, but when you see him among friends, that's Clark, not Superman, he behaves like that dude from Kansas, not like a superpowerful alien. I hated so much that like from Kill Bill, it's Batman the one who is like that, Bruce is the disguise and Batman is the real identity.
>>47156804
It was just a saying, chill out.
>>47156791
It was show in his movie that when he was young, he was hurt or incredible annoyed by this. Also the fact that he was natural superstrenght and he was to be careful to not explode someone from shaking his hand for example.
His powers are not something like "I want to move this so I have to concentrate". To use his x-vision or super hearing, he has to let it go.
>>47156697
I think they actually did once
But I only know that from this edited pic, so don't quote me on it
>>47156791
Well, Snyder was drawing from Dark Knight Returns. Which is the same comic that has Batman breaking a man's back, riding around with shotgun-wielding, horse-riding vigilantes.
>>47156804
Just really happy to see Bats actually doing the whole Bruce Wayne bit, for the first time since... what, Michael Keaton?
>>47156864
>chill out.
I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at how popular that became due Kill fucking Bill and now every retard out there says it and puts the smuggest face like he thinks he solved string theory.
>>47156793
>that fucking Wilhelm scream
Glorious. Also, that's actually from the sequel. Though, he does kill... 19 people in the original one. Including the Joker. And a goon that he knocks down a bell tower to his death. And a dozen that he explodes/burns to death with the Batmobile.
>>47156804
Clark is absolutely the disguise. He is, at the end of the day, an alien god. He can run and hide and moonlight as your average everyday niceguy but that doesn't change the fact thats him ACTING as an everyday person, which he is absolutely not. He's a fucking godlike entity that can see through anything but lead, bench press the earth for days, shoot god damned lazers out of his eyes, and hear individual people from outside the god damned atmosphere. Whatever he says he is or acts like he is that doesn't change the reality of him.
Put it this way. If you spend 99.9% of your life aa your average everyday person but 0.01% as a serial killer are you an average person or a serial killer?
>>47156946
You're mistaking personality with physique
>>47156589
>BvS' whole plot was much, much dumber
Really? In civil war all the bad guy had to do was email that video to tony stark
>>47156946
Do you even read Superman? this has nothing what he can do, but how he really is. At the end of the day Spiderman can lift 30 tons, dodge bullets, jump from one bulding to another, etc, but this is about how they behave
The line in kill bill states that Clark is a facade, that he acts all mildmmanered, naive. prude, gentle and generous as a disguise, and that's a lie, Kal-El is like that, he's the dude from Kansas who grew up in a farm, who learn the life values by his loving parents, even if he can bench press the Earth
>>47144162
>implying they couldn't just Don Cheadle the Red Skull
The guy is 60% makeup. I bet we could get Ron Perlman in that mask and look even more threatening.
>>47157031
>email an VHS in 2016
I think it would take another movie to find a VHS recorder and a way to turn it digital nowadays
>>47156946
...gods no.
This isn't like Batman, who is questionably the 'Actual' person and Bruce the disguise.
Supes is a normal, nice guy from Kansas. He just happens to also have huge power. At his core, Supes IS Clark Kent.
>>47156991
It doesn't matter your larger traits are what define you. Yes the minor traits can make you interesting but again at the end of the day he's a god no matter how much he pretends not to be. At the end of the day he's the kill no one ideolist that tries his damnedest to do right by everyone and be a benevolent god shield. Clark kent is the low profiler who doesn't rock the boat as a meek backgrounder, if clark kent was punched by some random stranger he'd assuredly fall to the ground and probably complain a bit about the pain before turning his pockets out to the mugger and morning his spilled coffee and broken glasses then go on to feign partial blindness for the rest of the day. His whole life as kent is a lie, a game of pretend. Its even parsed down on his overarching personality traits because he's pretend to be NotSuperman and ACT normal.
Lets say god is real for a second and comes down to earth to live life as an everyman right down to bleeding and possibly dying, does he stop being god and suddenly become Bob? No. He's still fucking god.
You can't lie or pretend away the truth. You can't put a mask on and play pretend and hope truth somehow misses you in the crowd. Slapping paint over something doesn't change what the paints slapped on.
>>47147185
Zemo did more damage to the Avengers on a fundamental level than Ultron, Loki, and all of Hydra, with nearly 0 resources and a grudge. On top of that, he's still alive, and secured almost (almost) every objective from his plan. Sure, nobody died, but the Avengers have been rendered toothless, split, and incarcerated.
the only objective he failed to secure? He didn't get to take his own life. In MCU terms: being alive = being in another movie. We're gonna see that bastard again. Maybe with a magenta balaclava.
>>47157131
Ive had VHS tapes converted to dvd before, and id probably watch that movie anyway
>>47157193
So you never read Superman, got it.
