>character movement distance is based on a dexterity attribute and not strength
>don't need muscles to go fast
is this proof that game designers don't exercise?
>>47132971
I don't know but my cat doesn't
>All Exercising = Strength Training
All the games I can think of that have a 'run' skill base it off strength.Athletics in DnD, 'Running' in Shadowrun...
I don't know of any that function of the dexterity stat.
This was just an excuse to post a picture of that lady's butt, wasn't it.
Most people associate cardiovascular endurance with agility rather than brute strength, as it's seen as a more feminine form of exercise.
I think /fit/ would agree.
>>47132971
I've never actually seen a game that uses dex to determine speed. What games do that?
>>47133026
He means a characters movement in combat. Typically it's a characters agility/dexterity/whatever, and the player can move that many metres as a regular move.
>>47133046
>Typically
What fucking games have you been playing?
>>47133046
...No?
>>47133055
I'm with this anon, what games do that?
>>47133026
White Wolf's movement rules are based off of Dexterity. Also To-Hit for almost everything. Also dodging. And successes over target number give additional dice of damage above strength. Dexterity is God Stat in White Wolf combat.
God White Wolf's combat system is bad.
>Only one kind of muscle
>>47132971
The strength requirement to go fast is already accounted for in weight limit / encumbrance rules. The problem is most GMs don't enforce those for whatever reason.
GURPS uses (DX+HT)/4, keep fractions, to determine general reflexes. Move is the same number with fractions dropped, in yards per second (+1 if sprinting all out). This is 5 for the average person.
Up to +3 or -3 Move can be purchased by "normal" individuals, representing training and general fitness or lack of fitness/slight disability.
>>47133241
Oh, and there is a Running skill in GURPS as well.
The stronger you are, the more muscle mass you have.
More muscle mass, more weight. More weight, less speed.
You'll never offset the speed loss with power. Ever seen a semi-truck beat a stock car in a race? That's what I thought.
>>47132971
Yeah, because big meaty arms mean you can run really fast.
>>47133313
bullshit
there's a reason marathon runners and sprinters don't look the same
>>47133313
You'll never offset the speed loss with power. Ever seen a semi-truck beat a stock car in a race? That's what I thought.
Ever see a V8 lose to a V6 with the same body? That's what I thought.
>>47132971
>don't need muscles for dexterity
>>47133316
>Strength measures your character’s muscle and physical power.
where does it say "arms"?
>>47133070
Fallout, I suspect.
>>47133026
Moving distance in shadowrun is agility x 2 for walking and agility x 4 for running.
Running skill is only used for sprinting and generaly useless.
>>47133313
>Ever seen a semi-truck beat a stock car in a race?
yes
>>47133368
Usually when STR is used to determine damage, the character uses weapons he holds in his arms. But you are right, I forgot about unarmed combat.
>bows need dexterity
>swords need strength
Shouldn't that be flipped
>>47132971
yeah whatever post more butts
>>47132971
Good game design bases it on DX and HT, Like GURPS
>>47133613
bows are built for your STR (adds damage), but DEX aims
>>47133613
I hate you contrarians that never shot with a bow. You still use something like dexterity to hit something with an arrow.
>>47133613
no, all weapons would require a mix of both strength and dexterity. for bows, dexterity would govern the hand-eye coordination involved in aiming, while strength is involved in drawing the bow. logically no decent fighter would be weak, neither would they be clumsy.
>>47132971
>OP has never had sex with a woman
>don't need women to have sex
Is this proof that OP is a faggot?
>>47132971
oWoD has the running athletic talent paired with strength for running, jumping, etc. Just stop playing something that isn't D&D
The reason speed is Dexterity based is because running isn't just about how hard you push yourself off the ground, but it's also in your stride and how long each movement is. Lots and lots of quick movements give the best results, and for that you need coordination to not trip over yourself and maintain proper technique. If you're running for more than a minute or so, you also need great Stamina to keep supplyng your body with the energy (blood and oxygen) it needs to keep going, otherwise you're going to peter out very quick.
Hence, top speed = Dexterity and Endurance Running = Constitution.
>>47133613
How well you hit with your bow isn't determined by how hard you pull the string, Anon. After a certain point, the string will just snap - the damage you get from a bow comes from where you hit and how close you are to the target. Hence, it makes more sense that bows would simply have a minimum Strength rating and use Dex for hitting and damage.
Swords, meanwhile, can be either precise, quick movements (Dexterity) or sheer raw power (Strength), with one being more apt for defense and the other being more apt for offense. However, they still require a minimum Strength rating.
>>47133095
Because encumbrance is the most boring game thing ever.
>>47133685
Hitting a target is the easiest thing in the world when you're strong enough to draw without any strain.
source: me and the lads did archery on a stag weekend and the top three scorers were two huge dudes and me, a hobbyist olympic weightlifter
Aim is a learned skill. There's no finesse to it.
>>47133613
Strength is requirement/damage bonus.
Dexterity is ability to use it well - accuracy/chance to hit
>>47133685
>>47133679
>>47133697
>>47133813
>using DEX to aim
um, now that i think about it, shouldn't you be using perception for ranged weapons?
>needing high agility to pull a trigger or let a string go
yeah, that makes perfect sense
>>47133894
Realistically, yes, your vision does play a role in hitting with ranged weapons, but the reason you need high dexterity is because you need to, you know, aim. It your hands can't line up the shot with what you're seeing, the fact that you have 20/20 vision is worthless.
>>47133894
Good sight doesn't help if you can't align you weapon properly. Meanwhile with good coordination you can shoot wherever you want. I'd say eyesight just sets maximum distance at which you can aim properly.
>>47133868
>source: me
See pic related.
Considering that you are not bullshitting, who would have guessed that people doing sport on a regular basis are good at sport?I don't want to ad-hom, but this line of reasoning sounds to me like some real fat guys don't want to admit that nimble and agile characters are good for something aside from being a dick-ass thief
>>47132971
No they don't.
>>47133813
>The reason speed is Dexterity based is because running isn't just about how hard you push yourself off the ground, but it's also in your stride and how long each movement is. Lots and lots of quick movements give the best results, and for that you need coordination to not trip over yourself and maintain proper technique.
you can say that about anything physical, though. there's technique involved in weightlifting, for instance, including making the right movements. would a little girl with proper technique outrun someone with the body of an olympic sprinter but none of the skill?
personally, if I were designing a system, I would leave out dexterity and just roll it together with skills. your dexterity at any given task would be determined by training, not an ability score. the rest would be strength, raw physical power.
>>47133944
i'd argue you'd need a high Dex to aim/switch targets quickly, but it doesn't take much finesse at all to move sights to a target
>>47134022
>pathfinder
I am not even surprised.
>>47134022
I'm still mad.
>>47134052
Naturally, sights would make aiming pretty piss easy, but not every weapon has sights.
>>47134022
>Holy shit I can't run 30 feet in six seconds without getting winded. I should give a penalty for moving and attacking in the same turn.
>>47132971
A game shouldn't have dexterity as a physical star since it is actually representative of the CNS and not agility. Speed = Strength + Reaction time. Steady hands is a genetic feature and strengthening hands doesn't do a ton.
A more accurate system would use just strength and constitution for almost any physical activity. Muscle speed and endurance is responsible for really all movement.
If I redid ability scores for 3 physical and 3 mental it would be Athleticism, Fitness, Constitution, Memory, Discipline, Charisma.
>>47134052
If you had piss-poor hand-eye coordination like me you would know how retarded your argument is.
>>47134184
Would you care to explain the difference between Athleticism/Fitness/Constitution? I'minterested.
>>47133313
>I know, I'm in several fantasy leagues.
>>47134230
Athleticism is the raw power/strength/speed
Fitness is physical training and experience.
Constitution is endurance
>>47134263
Huh. I guessed exactly backwards on Athleticism and fitness.
>>47134276
Well, it could go either way. One just should be "training" and on should be "ability".
>>47134286
I'd go with Strength, Training, Endurance
>>47134045
>personally, if I were designing a system, I would leave out dexterity and just roll it together with skills. your dexterity at any given task would be determined by training, not an ability score. the rest would be strength, raw physical power.
Mind you, STRENGTH is also largely affected by training. At that point, maybe just not having stats would be your thing.
>>47134344
So is endurance.
>>47133894
>DEX = high agility
Dexterity in D&D is a heavy abstraction that covers manual dexterity, move speed, and aiming ability. Arguably, this is one of the more fundamental problems with the system.
>>47133021
Cardio kills your gainz bruh.
>>47136018
Cardio is literally just training for your heart and lungs.
>>47133873
>dextiry just means skill
No. It is your hand to eye coordination and your flexibility.
Skill has been kept seperate from the attributes since AD&D - honestly you could argue that that is a problem that has spread through the D&D editions since then, but it's still how the "Core Attributes" are supposed to be used.
>>47132971
>human mechanics
This thread makes me think, what is the fewest stats you'd need to really cover 99% of characters? Let's see, you need to be able to distinguish between a marathon runner and a sprinter, so "Strength" for fast twitch muscles, and "Stamina" for slow-twitch. Then, you need to be able to distinguish between a gymnast and a locksmith, so "Agility" for full-body coordination, and "Manual Dexterity" for fingerwork. Mentally, you need to distinguish a math prodigy from that weird guy at the bar who has memorised the whole Baseball encyclopedia, and both of them from the streetsmart, so "Recall" for the memory, "Intelligence" for raw brainpower, and "Wits" for quickness of thought. And socially, you need to distinguish between charming paladins and manipulative conmen, so "Charisma" for charm and genuine friendliness, and "Cunning" for deception and false friendless. I make that 9, which seems an lot. Did I miss anything? Magic, obviously, but that's a setting issue.
>>47132971
Okay so I'm working on a system that uses the same attributes as D&D, and how I'm thinking of working out a PC's movement speed is just adding their STR, CON and DEX together, and just having that be how many feet they move per round - so your base normie would be able to move 30 feet per round
>>47137028
2, body and mind really, soul often then gets thrown in for magical stuff too.
though if I remember correctly, the rob leifeld rpg just had Bags and Muscles, which was the HP and attributes all in one.
>>47134052
Confirmed for never shooting or only shooting at IPSC hustle distances
>>47133021
Most non-SHW and quite a few SHW powerlifters can sprint fast as fuck.
THey just don't often do it, because you have to stop that weight on joints which you can't train.
I'm barely 240 and unless I sprint uphill, it'll feel my knee and hip joints for several days.
>>47137204
yeah, you always need to factor in that constantly recalibrating your movement speed in relation to your encumbrence and the weight of what you're holding.
>>47133453
that's for 5e. in 4e the movement speed was dependent on metatype only.
>>47137120
>body and mind
what exactly does body determine? does a high body mean that you are both strong and flexible and have high precision? is a high mind high charisma, intelligence and perception?
>>47137352
to be fair the movement speed had to be abstracted to individual tiles and keeping that shit tracked if it could change too much during the course of a campaign would be a nightmare.
>>47137419
Yup. Body is anything physical, mind is anything involving mental acuity, from social skills to memory.
>>47134338
I avoided strength because I would have a "Brawn" skill for lifting and such.
>>47137578
>brawn
>not "thews"
you had one job, anon.
>>47137028
I don't see why these are seemingly different ends of scales. Like, what's the difference between "charisma" and "cunning" except moralizing? If a Paladin is intending to convince somebody of something, how does that differ from someone nasty trying to convince somebody of something nasty or untrue? I mean, answering that is already going to be a pain in the ass, and I'm not convinced that an examination of "Recall" vs. "Intelligence" vs "Wits" as distinct mental features is going to hold up to any kind of real psychological scrutiny.
>>47133403
Fallout doesn't have dexterity, it has Agility and it does make you faster.
Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, Luck
>>47133894
Using a bow requires stability more than anything. In the time between aiming and releasing, even small movements will completely fuck your ability to hit what you were aiming at.
Being stronger means that you are straining against the bow less, which naturally reduces extra movement or shakiness.
>>47134022
That is so wrong... but also explains a lot about the rules.
>>47133685
>>47133894
>>47133944
>>47135328
DEX is a retarded stat that mostly gets used in situations where the only thing that realistically matters is practice and acquired skill.
Strength is a pretty straightforward stat in that it's easy to envision how it affects actions: you are able to do them better/harder/faster because you have more power to put into it, simple.
But dexterity is this catchall stat that way, way too often influences actions where, realistically, you are using a skill acquired through practice, not relying on your innate physical ability.
Doing cartwheels, lockpicking and target archery are not actually related to any meaningful degree in the same way that upper body strength related skills are. You can be an amazing dancer and a terrible archer, or a great juggler who's fat and clumsy as fuck.
>>47133038
The hilarity being cardio more than strength training is what's going to keep you from dying.
>>47139199
Yep. In a pre-civilization world, I'd rather be able to outrun anything than be stronger than all the other cavemen.
You need muscles to be dextrous in general, ya fucking idiot.
>>47139247
You need muscles to move your face too, but talking or smiling are not STR actions.
>>47139154
The thing is, Str is a stat that will realistically be just as affected by training.
It's really an issue with both STR and DEX, less with CON. The stats don't move too much while realistically they would change massively over time.
>>47132971
I can't think of any game worth playing that does something like this.
But using Dexterity to determine bonus movement speed makes some sense. You can be strong and a tree is still going to stop you if you can't dodge it.
So, like, you're wrong, but it shouldn't matter at all.
>>47133453
>Running skill is only used for sprinting and generaly useless.
I hope you like defaulting on a running test with 2 strength. You'll end up with tied shoelaces and tripping down the stairs.
(it's a dumb mechanic, sprinting in 5e)
>>47139233
You're realistically not going to be able to out run any predator. Instead you'll be able to run down most.
Remember that humans aren't build well for short bursts of speed but for long distance pace changing races. If something is already barrelling down at you, you've got issues.
You should be the one behind it.
>>47139233
Being stronger than all the other cave men doesn't mean jack shit if you get exhausted. There's a reason a lot of apex predators go for speed over brute strength.
>>47139320
The big, overarching problem is that character creation in a lot of games is a fucking mess.
Level of skill and physical attributes are often connected, but not by a lot, and skill sets are all over the place.
This is why I much prefer systems that uses background or class as a skill, or has skill packages depending on background etc.
Pick and choose character creation is how you end up with Knights who know only 2 weapons and no riding "because I didn't pick it because we're going to be in a dungeon anyway" or people who grew up on a farm but have no farm related skills, or with completely lopsided physical stats (all str, no dex!) as if they spent all their time in a gym exercising ONE muscle group, instead of developing a good overall physique through rough living.
>>47139363
Sure, being a predator is kind of tricky if you're slow as fuck, but what apex predators are weak? They're all really fucking strong compared to the things they prey on aren't they?
A tiger can severely fracture a waterbuffalo skull with a swipe of it's paw, and basically crumple a human skull, same with a bear.
>>47133043
Dark Heresy etc.
>>47139691
>They're all really fucking strong compared to the things they prey on aren't they?
Some overpower, some outnumber (canines), somee outlast (cheetah).
>>47137120
>though if I remember correctly, the rob leifeld rpg just had Bags and Muscles, which was the HP and attributes all in one.
It's Pouches, Muscles, and Cyber. Muscles is your strength and how many guns you can hold at the same time, and Cyber is your speed and armor.
I'm the builtfat mode DM, I have a curlbro and a literal powerlifter in my group.
Tell me, /tg/ how /fit/ is your group?
>>47133359
Not necessarily, you can be a fat brain surgeon for example.
>>47140552
>fat means weak
Anyway, surgeons tend to have pretty strong arms.
>>47139356
You don't need to be faster than the predator. Just faster than the other cavemen chased by it.
You use the higher of your Strength or Agility when determining your overall movement speed. Agility only for moving through difficult terrain.
My ideal stat set would look something like:
Power: Strength and Endurance
Finesse: Agility and Dexterity
Mind: Intellect and Perception
Persona: Charisma and Cunning
A fighter would have good Strength, Endurance and Agility, but wouldn't necessarily be dextrous since they're mostly about holding a weapon; add a side of Charisma, perhaps, if they're the town watch type, Perception for the grizzled veteran, Intellect for the studied knight.
A rogue might have great Agility, Dexterity and Perception, allowing them to spy their goal, perform fine manipulations and fight with light weapons if necessary; add a side of Cunning for the liar in the night, Strength for the bowman, or Intellect for the art thief.
A nobleman might have higher stats in Intellect, Charisma or Cunning, and Dexterity; representing studies, their social graces and their soft babylike hands. Maybe they paint; that'd be Charisma limited by Dexterity; maybe they practice fencing, in which case they might have higher than average Agility.
I feel it's granular enough without being too much. Eight is about the highest I'd take the number of stats.
Predefined skill lists tend to be shit, too. Either too verbose or not well-defined enough.
Wasn't there this system were you wrote down whatever you were good at, trying to explain it and be specific, and then just gave it some score +,++,+++ etc?
>>47142477
Doesn't The Burning Wheel do this?
>>47137028
I arrived at something similar, but it ran something like
Strength Agility Vigor
Reasoning Intuition Charm
Magnetism Tenacity Poise
Strength is how hard you hit
Agility is how smooth you move
Vigor is how well you endure
Reasoning is how smart you logic
Intuition is how keen you grok
Charm is how good you talk
Magnetism is how strong you emote
Tenacity is how never you give up
Poise is how calm you keep your shit
I'd rename them now - at the time, I was insistent that they all start with different letters, for reasons. Still, it's the set I arrived at, which is in a lot of ways similar to what you've got, but does have notable differences. Same number though!
>>47133071
We playing the same game? Movement is Str+Dex+5, Dex is only half of dodge, the other half is wits, and Dex is only added to ranged attacks, unless you grab the fighting finesse merit, all melee is strength based. Plus most good weapons have strength requirements to use, so it can't be totally dump statted. This applies even to guns.
In this meme: we memejectively try to measure nebulous concmemeptual stats.
Figuratively reported myself.
also depends on how dex is defined
i split it into agility for fast-flexing muscle fibers and flexible joints , and precision for hands (bypassing defenses, aiming , lockpicking etc)
so i did this: STR adds a bit to speed and a lot to stamina. AGI adds lots to speed and a bit to stamina.
if you have alot of training in STR like a powerlifter , you would be pretty fast , but not as REALLY fast as someone who specialised in AGI, but with more stamina you can carry more stuff without penalties
>>47139346
You don't need to roll to just move around, you know.
>>47143634
Yeah, killing dex as a god stat is one of the many things nWoD/CofD did right.
Sadly cWoD remakes and Exalted still use it and it highlighted it severely.
>>47133313
>You'll never offset the speed loss with power. Ever seen a semi-truck beat a stock car in a race?
Never seen or heard of someone entering a NASCAR in PPIHC, but I can't imagine it would be significantly faster than this beast if someone did. That said, "stock" car racing has been dead since the 80s. I wouldn't be surprised if an actual Camry or Impala laid down better times than their NASCAR equivalents in the next couple of years.
>>47133697
>no, all weapons would require a mix of both strength and dexterity.
>needing two stats for basic performance
laughing wizards.jpg
>>47139691
And the waterbuffalo can kill the tiger with a good kick.
There's a lot of hunting strategies and while raw strength certainly plays a role, it's usually secondary. A lot of prey is just as strong if not stronger.
Humans or wolves for instance barely have to attack in order to hunt. They exhaust preys.
>>47132971
In my own RPG, I have 8 stats. Power, Endurance, Agility, Grace, Guile, Intellect, Presence, and WIllpower.
Speed stat is Power + Grace.
You can move as many meters a turn as your speed.
>>47132971
Yes. There are two types of muscles, red for explosive power and white for endurance. Dexterity, what the fuck is that even.
>>47133513
>Usually when STR is used to determine damage, the character uses weapons he holds in his arms.
>this is what people who have never held a sword or swung a polearm around actually believe
Arms are for aiming the weapon, your legs are for putting momentum behind it.
>>47133685
Confirmed for never shooting a bow with a useful draw weight.
>>47133345
Well actually, resident /o/tist here - a V6 with forced induction could very easily beat a V8, and since you weren't so specific, a V8 from the 80's will probably struggle against any modern V6
Of course, inline 6 engines are god tier
>>47148341
Yeah, because those 320 lb bows have heat seeking arrows.
>>47132971
Movement should be based on constitution or stamina (and willpower, if we are talking about running for a long time), not strength.
>>47137435
>>47148393
people tend to forget that war bows are exactly that: bows used in WAR, with hundreds of archers all firing at once into formations of soldiers. not one dude trying to hit one specific target such as one would do when hunting/killing a goblin in a dungeon.
>>47133313
meme-worthy
That's what I thought
>>47132971
ITT
People arguing about disparancies caused by the simplification of unfathomable amounts of factors that actually play in when reducing said amount to something sort of enjoyable and at the very least playable - preferably by dice and paper.
>>47133037
Excuse shouldn't be needed, holy shit it's awesome.
>>47148790
>>47137435
>>47137315
>>47136834
>>47132971
This thread pleases my fetishes.
>>47133038
Wrong wrong wrong.
Cardio is what lets you run for miles.
Strength/Endurance training is what will decide how quickly you can close a gap, especially when carrying a lot of shit
>>47148790
Am I the only one here who thinks she would look better in form fitting bike shorts?
Those miniature panties look too slutty.
>>47133037
What makes you think that?
>>47132971
You do know that basically everything your dexterity / agility does relies at least somewhat on your strength, right? I mean, jumping, rolling, throwing and so forth all require you to have the muscles to pull them off (and let's not even get started on gymnasts). Realistically, your strength and dexterity stats should be correlated, but as it is, you sort of have to take a high dexterity as encapsulating the type of strength necessary to pull it off. The strongest person in the world isn't likely to be the fastest and most dexterous, so there is at least some dichotomy.
>>47150265
Dexterity shouldn't be a stat at all, as basically everything it does are actually just individually acquired skills
>>47133513
>
No, anon. A gym meathead who stands rigid and hits you with a stick moving only his arm will hurt way less than a small sized woman who knows how to hit.
It´s not about having strong arms, but about knowing how to put your whole weight behind the hit. You make that mostly with the way you move your torso, and it boils down to hips and leg play.
Strong arms are important, but anyone who fights regularly will have strong legs first, strong arms second.
>>47150352
Knowing how to hit matters but you vastly underestimate the effect that actually being strong has.
And apparently you don't fucking know how to hit either, because it sure as shit isn't your legs, it's your core, chest, and back
>>47133313
In real life the guy who is taller and heavier will outpace you with his long legs and big strides, and then hit you with a sword until you are dead, as you are unable to penetrate the thick armor he is able to wear.
That's not the romantic fantasy of adventuring that most people have. In stories, big strong characters are often slow and clumsy and inexplicably lacking in manual dexterity and hand-eye coordination; whereas in real life boxing is a great way to train those things up.
The fighter is not a fantasy of a big strong man, it's a fantasy of a guy who hits real hard. The rogue is not the fantasy of some hunched over old lockpicking expert with nimble hands but the reaction time of a statue of molasses, its the fantasy of the lightning fast guy.
>>47150386
Good luck using core, chest and back without a decent stance, which comes from the legs.
Not to talk about how half of the power comes from the hips, and you can´t move them properly without strong legs.
I´ve been training long enough. The big fat guy hurts like hell when he catches your face, but it´s the thing one who knows how to move who will fuck you up.
Don´t forget either that raw strength movements tire you out much faster than proper technique. The guy of the big arms might have an advantage on the first few hits, but then it´s all downhill.
>>47137028
>This thread makes me think, what is the fewest stats you'd need to really cover 99% of characters?
Why do you NEED stats at all? What purpose do they serve in the actual game? Most systems go out of their way to mitigate the importance of stats at everything that actually matters (especially combat) so that people can set up their stats however they want without being at wildly different power levels. This isn't undesirable; it's good that characters are balanced, but it's unnecessary. Don't believe me?
>D&D
You pretty much never make a raw stat check unless you are playing 2e or lower and even then it's essentially just a skill check. 95% of differences in player combat ability (to hit, AC, etc) come from class choice. In newer editions it's the same thing, but even more abstracted. Ability score bonuses are just tiny modifiers to other things that are slightly up or down (rarely more than -2 or +2) from a level-expected guidepost.
>WoD
The system is a piece of shit with a bunch of derived stats but pretty much all characters derived stats end up looking fairly similar. Instead of carefully assigning numbers to nine attributes it'd be a lot simpler to just choose a build option that gives you +1 Defense or +1 Willpower or whatever. Skills are clunkier and shittier because of the way attributes are added to them.
Next time you get to designing your own RPG ask yourself "What are these stats really for?" What are they actually being used for? Yes, they measure characters, but what do they do when the dice meet the table? Chances are they don't affect the actual dice much.
>>47150504
Half the power doesn't come from the hips, and you're a fucking faggot who's never punched anything in his god damned life.
>Don´t forget either that raw strength movements tire you out much faster than proper technique.
That's not how it works. When the strong guy and you are at 100% he's already stronger than you. When he's at 80% you're at 70% because his training is in short term endurance. And yeah, after 5 minutes he'll be fucked if he never bothered to hop on the treadmill every once in a while. But after 5 minutes he'll already have knocked your god damned head off.
>>47150555
In D&D your attributes affect your bonus spells and save DCs so they're pretty enormously important.
WoD stats directly increase your dice pool and can affect derived stats like your Soak.
>>47139363
While most predators do prefer speed over strength Humans, which are unquestionably on the top of the food chain, have chosen endurance over both. You'll never be able to out lift an ape or out sprint a cheeta but you can do both for longer. Cavemen didn't catch prey, they ran it down until it got tired. We're the terminators of the natural world.
>>47133313
weight reduce your speed, it doenst limit your speed to some X km per hour.
>>47137028
>Did I miss anything? Magic, obviously, but that's a setting issue.
willpower and motivation
>>47137028
>. I make that 9, which seems an lot.
NOPE
if the amount needed is 9 by logic, this means it not alot.
>>47151074
the only thing that limit the speed is the speed of light
The difference lies in physics, mainly inertia. I define agility as the ability to shift actions or body positions swiftly and accurately. Case in point, I used to fence in highschool, and one of the things that's crucial to learn with that is efficiency of movement. Fencers are trained to use the minimum amount of motion possible to perform their maneuvers effectively, since less acceleration means less inertia, which means it will be easier to react to an opponent and recover from a misstep.
So in an ideal system, strength would determine your speed in a straight line whereas agility/dexterity would allow you to perform more unique actions in a round and recover from untenable positions more gracefully.
So if Big Dumb Fighter Guy and Tiny Skeezy Rogue Dude do a thirty meter sprint, obviously BDFG is gonna win because he's got more power and more momentum. But in a straight fight TSRD will be able to take a five foot step, attack, do a quick roll/flip to get back on their feet, maybe in throw in another cheeky stab while they're at it, whereas BDFG will be basically limited to stepping forward and swinging.
>dexterity based movement
>>47141962
Something always falls through the cracks.
Best to just make peace with the fact that attributes are just a useful abstraction. Trying to extrapolate much out of them is silly.
Hand dexterity and physical agility are bodged together in 3e because the skill system was half baked nonsense, and it protects the rogue's niche.
>>47151207
>right is faster than left
On /tg/ the memes are real
>>47150623
>In D&D your attributes affect your bonus spells and save DCs so they're pretty enormously important.
3.x (and 4e) expect players to have certain stats by certain levels. It's built into the math of the games and the general intention is that saves (or defense or whatever) increase at the same rate as the things that target them. The net effect of increasing ones stats is generally ZERO. Go find two character sheets with spellcasters of the same class and level and compare the number of spells they have and the DC on on those spells. Looks awfully similar doesn't it? It's a treadmill and you should recognize it for what it is. Good game design would simply cut the entire treadmill out. It's pointless.
>WoD stats directly increase your dice pool and can affect derived stats like your Soak.
Again, the power is illusory. You fiddle with ten dials and always end up with one of about three results. Why isn't there just one dial with three options?
>>47155565
I would say that strength is compared to the full body. A guy with very strong arms but weak legs is not going to have as much strength as a guy whose arm strength is less than the first ones (but still above average) but who also has strong legs. Basically, strength is the average of the individual strengths.
>>47155719
>>47155565
>weedy nerds trying to make all human physicality and intellect fit into six abstract numbers
Shit's entertaining, I'll say that.
>>47155719
Are you implying the guy on the right in >>47155565 is skipping his leg days?
>>47133868
Maybe when the thing on the other end of your bow isn't trying to kill you
>>47156089
I think body builders are a poor template. They are trained only in moving weights back and forth, and they care less about strength than they do about making certain muscle groups swollen to be aesthetically pleasing to gay men.
It's kind of like saying a chess master is a genius. True in a sense, but misleading.
>>47155971
so what, how would you describe a character? Of course you could use 20 billion stats to describe every aspect of their body and mind, but I at least wouldn't want to play that
>>47156089
it wasn't related to the pic, just an example
>>47156212
I would take the original six stats as written and just enjoy their role as a useful abstraction in a game about looting dungeons and fighting monsters, rather than trying to make them simulate the real world in infinite detail.
Or say fuck it, and abstract them further.
>>47156267
are you
>>47155971
?
>>47156316
>>47132971
Dex is how well you can move yourself, strength is how well you can move other things
>>47158263
This is actually a good and well-put simplification.
>>47133021
That doesnt seem very functional.
>>47132971
>dexterity doesn't involve muscle
>wondering why raw strength is equated to speed
Looks like the one who doesn't exercise is you.
>>47158992
isn't****
damn shouldn't shitpost when I'm tired.
Oh well OP is a faggot who doesn't understand what Dexterity represents, is basically what I'm trying to say.
>>47139154
But having the agility to do cartwheels and having the affinity to land an arrow with little practice can be innate skills. Also, don't most of those talents fall under some sort of skill? Like a character who has high dexterity may not necessarily be built to use a bow or be a thief so they won't how as much success.
>>47140033
>somee outlast (cheetah)
Nigga what?
A cheetah's whole strategy is being able to outrun and overpower the animals that it hunts. If prey animals can out last a cheetah then they can usually escape.
>>47162424
This anon is correct. Cheetahs are the nVidia graphics cards of the animal kingdom.
>>47150448
This is literally the worst comment I think I've ever read.
>>47162482
Stay buttblasted, dexfag.
>>47150214
Source?
>>47133313
>More weight, less speed
But that's wrong, you retard.
More weight, more inertia. You accelerate slower, being heavy doesn't 'cap' your speed somehow.
>>47139300
Roll 1d20 to smile, you get lockjaw on a natural 1.
What's her main stat?
>>47164323
Charisma
>>47150133
With a body like that I don't really see her as slutty. I appreciate her sexiness for sure, but I also see appreciate her in the way one appreciates a classical olympian body type. That body is approaching functional perfection and I love it!
>>47150324
DEX works as a stat when it acts as a bonus to skills that require it.
I'm sure to win because my speed is superior: the thread
>>47164323
>those thighs
I want her to crush me head in-between them
>-2 con
constitution doesn't seem to affect gains.
>>47132971
Yes, or that game designers decided to split high density leg muscles into a different category as core and upper body strength.
>>47150555
I think you're not familiar with GURPS, Hero, BRP, or tons of other systems where stats matter a LOT.
Not all of them use Dex instead of Str.
>>47162549
Tomo-chan wa Onnanoko!
>>47132971
Strength and agility are not the same thing.
Strength is how much, agility is how fast, power is a mixture of both, or how fast and you except an amount of strength.
(Worked as personal trainer, this is very basically how this are seen)
Ofc you need strength to have agility, but a different type to what we think of as "strength", also different people/races have different amounts of fast/slow twitch fibers, which then influence it, not to mention body weight.
It can get complicated, but simply put its perfectly fine for those to be 2 separate stats.
>>47150448
You do realize there's such a thing as a big, clumsy, and slow guy, right? That not all big guys are fast and coordinated? That's why there are two stats - strength and dexterity. The big nimble guy has both. The big slow guy doesn't.
We need more cute but physically fit women, both in reality and in fiction.
>>47166821
Allison Stokke is the base of many of my female adventurers.
>>47132971
>tfw you play a game where STR=running speed.
Feels good man.png
Why not have things like run speed draw from both strength and dex (or agil)?
>>47133640
Yeah, it kind of relies on a different sort of fitness than your "lift stuff and smash heads" fitness. Although realistically a lot of physical characters and heroes will pretty much have all said physical scores within a certain margin of each other. Normally anyways. I can imagine a gap in endurance or general health and raw lifting strength for some types, like body builders abusing steroids, or some power lifters. (Not anything absurd, like 9 versus 15, but definitely a lower score for general endurance.)
Kind of a "Legolas versus Gimli" kind of thing. Or what Gimli claims, and I think the movies give him short shrift for a cheap joke. It wouldn't surprise me if his sort of Dwarf really can run basically forever, just not very fast compared to the long limbed, graceful Elf in the room. It's just that the Elf can also potentially go a really long distance, and faster. Maybe farther if you assume one of the Elf Lords of old like Feanor, who could probably "Gump" it up and run all around Middle Earth continuously. Or swim in armor. Like Beowulf. But without messing up his hair.
>>47162328
This person is at least partially correct. I mean, I can like, do some fine motor control things alright through practice, but my fine motor control is shit, and clearly limits the absolute limit of what I can do efficiently. I can do somethings reasonably well, but more slowly than most people. This is clearly a deficiency.
In yer Gurps having a high base score for dex related stuff does give you an easier time, although this is to a point. There are limits on what your default will get you. (default = untrained skill). People that are as agile as a jungle cat will be a natural with a gun, but require at least a point of training to get from like say, 15 -16 up to the monstrous 20 they have naturally.
Some Guy who is more modestly agile might actually potentially spend less points to be about as good a shot as that, even working against the larger amount of training required. (Because Dex is eye wateringly expensive. It effects so many things, like a lot of combat skills, your speed, your dodging ability, etc.)
>>47166295
underrated filename
>>47166747
>Rolling DEX
These owlbears won't kill themselves you know? Why don't start helping out for a change?
>>47133345
False analogy. A human with a "V8" of muscle power would not have the same "body" as a human with a "V6" of muscle power.
>>47132971
I've always viewed it as the difference between high weight/low reps and low weight/high reps.
You can't pull a bowstring without some muscle, it's just that runners/gymnasts have different muscles than bodybuilders/shot put/ dead lifters.
>>47132971
Tactical combat movement is not the same as a dead sprint. It is more a matter of coordination and grace than power.
>>47168084
Is that what you fat fucks tell yourselves as you cry yourselves to sleep at night on your body pillows?
>>47168232
Nice demonstration that you know nothing about cars or muscles.
>>47162565
Yes it does, muscle only has so much power output contrary to what animu might have taught you.
>>47168232
Are you lost?
>>47133026
Running speed in GURPS is Basic Move, which is in turn (Dexterity + Health) / 4. It's considered appropriate for drama and niche preservation reasons, but if you watch carefully these runners tend to be agile and in excellent physical condition rather than having the bulk, lifting strength, and hitting power that comes with Strength.
You can raise/lower your manual dexterity separately from the rest of Dex (which really makes it more like Agility than dexterity, but whatever). The same goes for Basic Move. So if you really want to separate them you can.
In practice, it seems like high DX and HT people also have very good running speeds.
>>47133241
>>47133813
Oops missed this or I wouldn't have bothered to post. This guy has it right.
>>47150035
/tg/, a better /s/ than /s/.
>>47150133
I agree. I don't think it's sluttiness, though. I can't really say what it is, but you're right. There really is such a thing as too revealing-- not because she isn't hot but because she'll never be quite as hot as your imagination makes her. It's how a girl in lingerie can be hotter than the same girl flat-out naked.
>>47171672
>/tg/, a better /s/ than /s/.
The real question is, is /tg/ better than /ss/ ?
>>47168232
It is a well known fact that as women age their muscle density increases even as their muscle volume stays the same.
>>47132971
It gets more complicated...
There's strenght which is "how much can you pull/push under no time constraints"
There is power which is "how much can you pull/push in an explosive manner"
There is muscle endurance which is "how long can I push/pull stuff"
There's aerobic adaptation which basically means "how long can I pump blood and air untill I keel"
There's a relationship between the first three, it usually being the case that power is bounde by strenght and that both have to be exchanged for endurance. This is called adaptation (sometimes called slow/fast twich adaptation though the theory is sometimes questioned).
In 50-75m races Olympic lifters win with Sprinters, and oly lifters also have the biggest vertical jump
Sprinters win on 100m races but don't win usually win on 1km runs.
Pepople that win 1km runs don't usually win marathons.
Sometimes (RPG) dexterity is used to denote a persons flexibity (which is another factor of human health which isn't really ralated to the other ones) and gymnastic skill (which is more like strength+power+skill - like instrument playing skill).
I haven't seen a system that would be even close to mirroring real life...
Here's what i want to do:
>speed = height-related. (I might add athletics skill)
>I'll use agility for all aiming done with hands (i have no dex, just agi)
>use strength for all damage (except crossbows and other not-directly-powered-by-muscles)
>>47174358
The damage produced by a bow is dependent on the bow itself (and arrow type and shot placement). Strength determines if and how many times you can properly draw it
>>47140033
>cheetahs
>outlast
