Previous Thread: >>47112174
>Pastebin
http://pastebin.com/PPptBB5u
>Question
Has anybody actually started playing Mage 2e yet?
How is your game going? (Mage or not)
>>47121278
>Has anybody actually started playing Mage 2e yet?
I am preparing for it. I wanted to start this game in 1e, but decided to wait for 2e and it's better made magic system. Now is the time.
>>47121278
I'm prepping. Game to start after semester 1 exams in 8 weeks.
>>47121278
No, and we probably won't for awhile. Our FBI Hunter game is just starting to get off the ground, so that'll be our focus until something catastrophic happens and it collapses.
>>47121318
I suppose. It's heartbreaking, really.
>>47121297
Except it's not a fringe case, it's something that anyone with any semblance of creativity with Time can do. The argument isn't that its too powerful, the argument is that its clearly more powerful than other Arcana, especially when some Arcana actually got worse. This is why more game designers need to embrace the white room style of design.
>>47121278
>>47121354
I haven't, yet, but I want to.
I'm still sort-of running my Demon game, and the last player who left has expressed interest in playing Mage, but I don't know about my three remaining players.
I sort of doubt one of them is going to want to make another new character after only 1 session with his Demon, and one of the others I'm not even sure if I'd want to invite, with how infrequently he shows up.
Plus, the Demon game's gotten to an interesting point, imo, since one of the players is currently Cover-less.
>>47121243
>>47121284
>>47121290
The Psychic Domination Rote for 1 experience is definitely one of the "I Win' buttons of Mage 2e.
Another great Rote is Fate 2 Exceptional Luck to grant 9 or 8-Again quality on any spellcasting rolls in addition to its other useful effects.
>>47121401
>Before Release
>Dave: "We're removing the speed bumps that were put in for balance purposes and actually assigning dot level based on the Practice it fits with."
>/tg/: "Yay! No more pointless balancing of the magic system!"
>After Release
>/tg/: "WTF?? THIS CLEARLY DIDN'T GET PLAYTESTED, PARTS OF IT ARE OUT OF BALANCE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE"
you never cease to amaze, /tg/
>>47121385
If people were super into rules being good and clear and balanced, there'd be a lot less games out. It's just a fact of life. Plenty of folks even outright reject the concept, what with the love for "Gygaxian prose" and distaste for the concept of reskinning.
>>47121278
>Has anybody actually started playing Mage 2e yet?
I'm still piecing through the fluff. I just finished chapters one and two. The stuff on Consilia made my eyes cross. No idea how I'm going to represent that shit in my game. I'm the one who's been talking about Primordial Dream Silent Hill shenanigans, and I need to a) figure out how that'll work and how long it's been going on, and b) figure out how the city's residents are structured. It might also be worth it to think of a few problems that can come about from my main Mystery. Maybe some cultists or something.
Also, I'm probably going to have some Circle of the Crone Acolytes and a few Beasts show up, maybe some human Cultists and spooky monsters, but I'm going to be lazy and just use Dread Powers or treat everything mechanically like mages. Way easier to stat out that way.
That said, I'm a loser with low self esteem and high anxiety, so who knows if I'll run at all. Hopefully I'll get over the hump.
>>47121401
It's a fringe case in that even getting to do it is pretty difficult in the first place. A white room wouldn't solve this. And, hell, I'm someone who does believe that hypothetical situations can be useful.
>>47121471
>gamers not knowing what they were asking for and getting really mad when they get it
It's been like this since at least 1999.
>>47121278
>Has anybody actually started playing Mage 2e yet?
Having folks over to guide them through character creation soon. None of us have ever played Mage before, and only a few of us are familiar with WoD, so it's gonna be interesting. I'm excited, though.I'm playing the Time Mage.
>>47121604
>None of us have ever played Mage before, and only a few of us are familiar with WoD
Remember, senpai, rule #1:
Have fun, and tell a good story.
>>47121471
One of the problems is that some Arcana actually had their speed bumps removed (Time, Fate), and others, not so much (Forces, Life, Prime).
I believe it's more a problem of varioust authors writing each Arcana, all with different ideas concerning power levels, capabilities and limitations.
>>47121604
>I'm playing the Time Mage.
Make your Obsession "Kill baby Hitler"
>>47121637
Or tell a bad story, then tell us so we can laugh.
>>47121643
But Forces, Life, and Prime are still really good.
Let's get down to the brass tacks, then.
Mind 2 + Space 2 + Time 2 (starting Mastigos) =
Step 1. Think of a guy you really, really hate.
Step 2. Fire up MS Paint and draw a stick figure caricature of the bastard, labeled with their name.
Step 3. Spend 3 Mana and fire your Psychic Domination rote with Spatial Sympathy and Temporal Sympathy, aiming for "the earliest possible point in their life wherein they could have killed themselves within 3 seconds."
Step 4. Keep trying until you get an exceptional success (not hard with a rote), at which point you blow past all Withstand ratings.
Step 5. Dead.
Right?
>>47121278
My VtR game has been on haitus because of life stuff, but hopefully we'll play again on Monday!
Now I just need to remember what my players were doing and prepare...
Seems to me that any major time manipulation should draw the attention of the Exarchs and their Ochemata...
>>47121674
>touhou portrait
Oh, this is gonna be good. What's your take on the magic system besides the Arcana stuff?
>>47121643
Here's the list of the authors of the various sections of Mage 2e (note that Claire Redfield is N. Conte).
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/40524683/#40533359
I'm dumbfounded that Claire wrote Time, Forces and Life. The former has been given a serious power upgrade, while the latter 2 definitely not.
>>47121492
If Consilia stuff is more complicated than you want to deal with, just set it in an area without much Mage presence. That way all you need is a few Cabals and some contacts at the wider-area Order Caucuses your players might interact with.
>>47121731
>touhou portrait
>Let's
2hu never uses contractions.
>>47121674
You need his sympathetic name, otherwise your Weak connection becomes no connection.
>>47121761
>Symbolic sympathy includes indirect representations of the subject — a person’s sympathetic name, drawings, caricatures, or posed and costumed photographs.
>OR
MS Paint drawing works.
>>47121743
To be fair, Time needed it the most. Life was already really strong, and had its few roadblocks removed, and Forces gets a buff just by nature of Vulgar spells no longer being a thing.
Time was always kind of... weird. Now it functions more like you would expect Time magic to work.
>>47121782
Yes, it does. However it still follows the rules for sympathetic range, which states if you don't know their sympathetic name the quality of your connection is downgraded once.
So weak becomes nothing.
>>47121807
>which states if you don't know their sympathetic name the quality of your connection is downgraded once.
No, their Withstand rating goes up 1. Difference.
>>47121807
>but not knowing it makes affecting her at range more difficult, increasing the Withstand level against the Sympathetic Range Attainment by one.
Just increases Withstand by 1. You're blowing past all Withstand with an exceptional success anyway.
>>47121674
A viable strategy, except against anyone with inherent spell resistance, such as any mage with Prime 2.
An exceptional success might cancel the withstand defense, but does not protect against Universal Counterspell or reflexive Prime Armor.
Mind 2 Mind Shield would also provide a defense.
>>47121743
>almost a year ago we were still arguing about Beast and Aspel was posting their Geist houserules
The ride truly does never end.
I want off this wild ride
>>47121801
>To be fair, Time needed it the most. Life was already really strong, and had its few roadblocks removed, and Forces gets a buff just by nature of Vulgar spells no longer being a thing.
>>47121801
>>47121845
>Prime Armor.
Does nothing against Psychic Domination.
>>47121757
>>47121731
Adslahnit also labels his files obsessively. After he was permabanned, he also moved on from Touhou to catboys.
>>47121746
I want there to be some mage presence, if for no other reason than for social problems. I just don't really understand the intricate web that seems to woven.
>>47121782
>>47121807
So is a dot a representative drawing? Because I know if one of my players tells me this stick figure is representative of their nemesis, I'm going to tell them that it's representative of a stick figure. I'm not saying that it necessarily needs to be super detailed and a hyperrealistic oil painting. But there's got to be at least a barest level of substance there. The entire point is that the representation helps you form the imago, and imagining a symbolic representation composed of five lines and a circle is not enough.
>>47121825
>>47121826
I don't even think you can keep trying the same spell over and over again in the first place.
>>47121845
Is everyone else just fucked?
>>47121869
>I don't even think you can keep trying the same spell over and over again in the first place.
I seem to remember Dave saying something like this, but I can't find the part in the book which says that.
>>47121893
I'm pretty sure it's considered part of the normal WoD rules. Or implied to be.
>>47121869
>>47121757
Damnit, I love it when that guy breaks systems over his knee. Oh well.
>>47121867
I guess that's true since Psychic Domination does no direct damage.
However, Universal Counterspell, also at Prime 2, will still be effective.
>>47121869
>But there's got to be at least a barest level of substance there. The entire point is that the representation helps you form the imago, and imagining a symbolic representation composed of five lines and a circle is not enough.
Create a representation of your target in one of those online animu paper doll makers or some such shit.
>I don't even think you can keep trying the same spell over and over again in the first place.
Nope, you can.
>>47121743
>And Tristan Tarwater (she wrote the story "The Intruder" in the anthology) did the fiction.
Glad I finally know who wrote that. It's pretty good.
>Lauren Roy did Tucson, London, the Time Before, and Ascension
She also did a good job, in my opinion.
>John Snead did Los Angeles and Salamanca
Fuck this guy, though. The settings are neat, overall, but they both leave you with a steaming pile of nothing to actually make a Consilium with.
>>47121933
Show me where you can. Dave said otherwise in these threads >>47121893
And a picture needs to be a picture of them. I'd allow a picture made in an online police sketch program, but not that.
>>47121936
Given the space limitations, you shouldn't consider the short sample settings as anything more than story hooks.
However, Dave did mention that Signs of Sorcery will include more substantive sample settings, including a detailed write-up of New York.
>>47121782
Now I know why you spend all this time arguing here - if you try to argue for things like this nobody must EVER want to actually game with you. You aren't even trying to work within the spirit of the game, you're just trying to rules-lawyer to be a cunt.
>>47121893
Base CofD rules - re-attempting the same action after failure subtracts a dice each time.
>>47121971
>Show me where you can. Dave said otherwise in these threads
[citation needed] or it's fucking nothing.
Are aimed spells inherently obvious?
>>47121637
I'm not too worried myself—I've run Geist before pretty successfully, so I know what's up. I'm just hoping the other folks who've never played a WoD game can get into it. Thanks, though.
>>47121660
>Make your Obsession "Kill baby Hitler"
In all seriousness, this is one of the things I'm having the most trouble with. I wish there were some example Obsessions in the books, 'cause so far I haven't had much luck coming up with one of my own.
>>47122003
>Are aimed spells inherently obvious?
P. 115,
"Aimed spells appear as bolts of energy or projections coming from the casting mage, as opposed to spells cast at sensory range which materialize at the point of the subject. "
>>47122084
2e mages confirmed for Touhou characters.
The Mind-Control assassination trick only works if they don't have friends, and they're not a part of an Order.
If they do, odds are they can get one of their own friends to use temporal sympathy to cast a protection spell in between when you controlled him and when he killed himself. Possibly even destroying the gun. What's more, they can do this in the past before your casting, meaning you would have no knowledge of what's coming for you, when having sryed to find where you are, you're facing down 4-5 Consilium/Seer Mages sent to bring you in to stand trial/summar execution for attempted murder.
Why exactly is it that mages are the only splat that gets to ignore Supernatural Tolerance?
>>47122054
I figure it's stuff like "I'm going to find the Chubacabra" or "I'll figure out why the abandoned Woolworth on 5th Street eats people". It's essentially telling the ST "Here's a free story arc, please put this weird shit in the game".
>>47122116
You'd need Fast Spells for that.
>>47122054
>example Obsessions
>Find someone/thing that went missing.
>Solve a murder.
>Discover an artifact.
>Figure out how a thing works.
>Do a thing in the past without greatly altering the present.
>Research the plot hook.
>>47121278
>Has anybody actually started playing Mage 2e yet?
Yep. With the long weekend going on now, have done two sessions. Double with the regular group.
Introduced them all to each other. Started them on the path to the weirdness of the first Mystery of one of the players.
Somewhat concerned about how good Fate is when it comes to generating Beat-rewarding conditions.
One of the players managed to get 5 xp (3 regular, 2 arcane, I think it was) by the end of session 2.
>>47122149
Because withstanding is a significantly more powerful form of defense than most other splats deal with.
"Oh no a -4 penalty out of my pool of 10, I sure hope my Dominate goes off still!"
>>47122140
It really seems like every mage needs to have both anti-Space spells AND anti-Time spells up at all times now.
Isn't that just shitty Chung-style paranoia?
>>47122149
Because the way their powers work doesn't really work with Supernatural Tolerance. They actually have more to get through, since Withstand is essentially a "you must have X+1 successes" in a system that generally relies on only having one to three successes.
>>47122149
They aren't. Demon has a few no roll powers, as do vampires.
>>47122149
Its to emphasize that Mage Magic Is Different, I think.
Withstand as a system seems like it's still strong enough to stop it from being overpowered as a result, though.
>>47122202
>every mage
Nah, just access to friends who do.
I would imagine many Consiliums have time-manipulation anti-aggression pacts.
I mean, it's easy as dirt for a Consilium to send a powerful mage to scrutinise your shitty fucking spell, find out what you did, from where, and sort out countermeasures appropriately.
Court of Arbitration looks poorly on seeming chronologically unprovoked assassination attempts.
>>47121869
>I don't even think you can keep trying the same spell over and over again in the first place.
If it follows the same rules as everything else, you can, with cumulative -1 penalties for each failure before.
Also, considering the Mana costs, a starting mage can only try three times.
>>47122149
Yeah! Everyone else always adds Supernatural Tolerance to Resisted powers!
...Wait...
>>47122185
All the paths have methods of generating conditions on themselves.
>Acanthus
Fate
>Mastigos
Mind(Psychologically impose the conditions.)
>Thyrsus
Life(Physiologically impose the conditions.)
>Obrimos
Prime or Forces(Fuck with your own magic, use illusions, create environmental conditions that give you actual Conditions)
>Moros
Matter(Mostly environmental condition stuff)
>>47122203
No. Withstand is "You must have a Potency of X+1", which is entirely unrelated to successes in 2e. Potency is determined before you cast, and each increase beyond what you get for free if it's the Primary Spell Factor imposes a -2 on the roll.
>>47122236
Yea, this whole debate is just the entire reason why the Pentacle exists - Mages create complex social groups so that they can all keep an eye on each other for shit like this. Dave even wrote a fucking blog-post called "A Well-Armed Society" during development.
>>47122149
Technically, Unchained can do it too. I mean, sure, they need Gadgets to do it, but with the Overwhelming mod they can ignore not just Supernatural Tolerance, but Resistance as a whole.
>>47122271
>All the paths have methods of generating conditions on themselves.
Ah! Had no Mind or Life mages, so didn't know, and the Prime mage only buffed his withstand and magical tools, nothing there.
But the Acanthus threw out like four conditions, for each member of the cabal, and they get XP for them.
(Exceptional Luck on self to get Inspired at magic, then get 3+ successes on a new Exceptional Luck, to grant Potency Conditions, that can be resolved for Beats.)
>>47122339
Does that also work with Contested powers, or is Resisted only?
>>47122360
The book does address that this can happen, and is a perfectly viable thing to do, even in-setting.
Just remember, you can only gain 1 Condition beat per scene.
>>47122236
Except that reasoning kinda breaks down when it comes to Pentacle-Seer relations.
>>47122469
Wait. ANY Condition?
I thought it just was that if you got Inspired, then got a new Exceptional later, and got Inspired again, you couldn't get a Beat off of it the second time.
But is it meant to be just 1 beat from ANY condition?
>>47122360
I thought Fate boons didn't grant Beats.
>>47122339
Speaking of DtD, does Spoofing trump Mage Sight and Unveilings?
>>47122559
If you get an Exceptional during the casting they do. And that's easy if you have Inspired.
>>47122543
>The only limits are the rule that a character may only earn one Beat per scene from resolving Conditions, and the limits of her own Wisdom (see p. 87).
ANY condition.
>>47122543
That's right, yeah. You can't get more than one Beat from the same source per scene.
Remember, also, that the Conditions granted by Exceptional Luck break the normal rules and only grant beasts if you got an Exceptional Success on your casting roll.
>>47122527
I was meaning it's interchangeable.
The Pentacle will want to keep its members alive because they have an obligation to try and protect them.
The Seers will want to keep their servants alive because they're their slaves.
>>47122598
>>47122604
Oh great.
Now I have to break this to my players, and they are going to whine like babies that I brake their insane XP gain.
>>47122527
Right, but that's why the war between the Seers and Pentacle is usually fairly cold - because both take great pains to protect themselves from the other knowing who they are.
>>47122626
Ha! Well, good luck. If they're reasonable, they'll hopefully understand that the game is better off for all of them when their characters aren't skyrocketing in power.
Note that the problem isn't necessarily gone completely. Theoretically, the same character could cast Exceptional Luck to give himself multiple Conditions, and then just Reach for Advanced Duration so that he has multiple scenes in which to resolve each one individually. But if your players really want to do that, you might want to have a talk with them.
>>47122685
>Ha! Well, good luck. If they're reasonable, they'll hopefully understand that the game is better off for all of them when their characters aren't skyrocketing in power.
All but one are reasonable. He's a good guy, but he doesn't like getting shut down in his power fantasies.
>Note that the problem isn't necessarily gone completely. Theoretically, the same character could cast Exceptional Luck to give himself multiple Conditions, and then just Reach for Advanced Duration so that he has multiple scenes in which to resolve each one individually. But if your players really want to do that, you might want to have a talk with them.
Yeah. He did. Started with Fate 3, and Exceptional Luck as Rote.
He had enough dice to still end up with a months duration. And while I admit he was lucky in getting 3 successes there.
Still. 16 beats in total from a single spell cast. 4 players, 4 Conditions each. (Inspired, Informed [Local Mages], Stalwart, Charmed)
>>47122201
Difference being, Vampire Disciplines and Werewolf Gift dicepools are capped at Attribute+Ability+Discipline/Renown rating, with few, if any, means of boosting that. Mages get a fucking truckload of options for boosting their casting rolls, while *also* being able to ignore Witstand on an exceptional success.
Time has always had the potential to be the most broken magic type, they should have kept a close eye on it.
>>47122803
Yeah, but exceptional success isn't something you can rely on getting, and every time you fail, your next attempt to do so has 1 less die.
>>47122803
Well actually the highest the Dice pool can be is 10 gnosis + 5 arcane + 5 yantra + 5 ritual. At be 25 dice at best. Same as every other supernatural.
My how game breaking.
>>47121278
>Has anybody actually started playing Mage 2e yet?
>implying anybody actually plays games
>>47122140
So anything not a mage can be insta killed?
>>47122835
Why is being a mage so best?
>>47122803
Mages also have to take a LOT of casting penalties for everything, including instant casting, sensory range, target size, duration, potency, etc. They are also limited to the number of Yantras available by Gnosis, and most only provide a +1, while every step on a factor chart is a -2 penalty.
>>47122896
Vampires and Werewolves can't apply the Rote quality to any of their power rolls though.
>>47122902
This isn't /v/. Right?
>>47122975
A lot of werewolf and vampires powers or abilities just work, no roll required, and reality itself doesn't punish them if they fail or screw up. Not with mages, nothing is free or easy.
All the different splats' powers operate under a different paradigm and thematic purposes, and trying to compare them if often a fool's errand.
>>47122903
Basically yeah. There are people who will swear up and down that 2e mages are not unbalanced. This is only true with regards to other mages. When it comes to the other splats mages are indeed still supreme lords of the cosmos.
Daily reminder that mages basically get 5 free merit dots at character creation.
>Mystery Cult Influence (•••, ••••, or •••••)
>Effect: Your character has influence over a Mystery Cult (see p. 106) without actually being a subordinate member. Perhaps your character is a “power behind the throne” or even worshiped as a deity. Your character benefits from the same level of Mystery Cult Initiation, without having to be tied to the cult. This means fewer responsibilities to the cult, plausible deniability if they’re revealed, and the ability to step away at any time.
>>47123191
All you need to fuck the other major templates is Time. That Arcana is balanced solely around there being other opposed mages around to shut down its most flagrant bullshit.
>>47123376
it's amazing how perfectly that cat nails the diabetes guy look
>>47122977
I have bad news for you, Anon.
>>47123376
It's not, though? You still have to pay the 5 dots for Mystery Cult Influence. You just get the benefits of Mystery Cult without the drawbacks.
>>47123394
I imagine it's pretty hard to abuse Time against the Arisen though.
>>47123376
Daily reminder that we already had a talk about this and it isn't free, since anybody who knows about it can still take it away from you pretty easily if you don't do anything to keep it.
>>47123394
>What is Luna
>Or whatever the Vampires have
>Or any other patron in the Ascension War
>Or Withstand ratings
>>47123376
This seems like it would be appropriate for vampires as well, particularly for Crones and Defiants.
>>47123417
Yes, but Mystery Cult gives two 1 dot merits, a two dot, and two three dots (one of the three dots can be traded for a nebulous supernatural advantage). Does have the issue of being a track theoretically used by mundane humans so you can't get Awakened merits with it.
>>47123430
"haha no guys Mages with Time don't shit on everyone else, because maybe Jesus Christ will rise from the grave despite zero indication this will happen and save them"
>>47123493
>When this Merit would grant a character a Merit she does not qualify for (such as Awakened-only Merits or Sleepwalker-only ones), she gains the value of the reward in Merit dots instead.
You can get Awakened-only merits with mystery cults.
>>47123430
>since anybody who knows about it can still take it away from you pretty easily if you don't do anything to keep it
The merit explicitly makes you not have to manage it.
>>47123492
No it's for mages and only for mages dont you dare steal it you vampire scum
>>47123548
You don't have to manage the cult, but you do have to manage your influence with it.
If someone wipes out the cult or turns them against you, you lose it just as much as a regular member would.
>>47123492
>>47123578
>Unless otherwise noted, all these Merits have an additional prerequisite of “Awakened.” However, at Storyteller discretion, other characters may take these. For example, in your chronicle, you may decide that the Sanctum Merit should be available to Sleepwalkers affiliated with the cabal.
Mystery Cult Influence is Awakened-only unless the ST says otherwise (i.e. house rule).
>>47123548
You don't have to be managing it to keep it, but you do have to keep the Seer you're at war with from wiping them out in the middle of the night.
When is Promethean 2 coming out
>>47123616
Gencon
>>47123589
You also have the benefit of a cult at your disposal.
>>47123376
Why even fucking have Mystery Cult if you're just going to print a new Merit that does the same, only better?
>>47123773
Because Glorious Mage Master Race obviously.
>>47123773
Yeah, supernatural's ever had a bigger, better version of a pre-existing merit specifically to emphasize them being better at [thing].
Never, ever.
Explain to me how 4/5-dot Death, Forces, Life, Matter, and Space DON'T get the shaft around Sleepers.
Every other 4/5-dot Arcanum can get away with most of their effects being 90% invisible to Sleepers.
>>47123578
>>47123592
Well Ordo Dracul already has Mystery Cult Junkie. It lets them get treat Mystery Cult Initiative as Herd Dots.
>>47123578
Well we did the samething to advanced and epic merits from Beast. So why not.
Also I would Without hesitation let Seers of the Throne take the Attaché Merit.
>>47122568
Spoofing trumps everything. That is the point of it.
Werewolf superior.
Mage inferior.
>>47122568
Anything that would imply they are not human. ANYTHING.
>>47123822
Does that really matter now that Vulgarity isn't a thing anymore? If you don't mind the Wisdom ding, you could even use the effects to weaponize Quiescence.
>>47123920
Increased Paradox, Dissonance.
>>47123822
Wow, you mean the 5 Gross Arcana actually have effects that are Gross, and the Subtle Arcana have effects that are Subtle???
Who'd have thought?
(Time is pretty obvious to Sleepers if you do anything besides just moving things forward/backward from your perspective, while Death is actually pretty subtle unless you're fucking with shadows or manipulating corpses.)
>Wall Run (•••): When climbing, your character can run upward for some distance before having to traditionally climb. Without rolling, your character scales 10 feet + five feet per dot of Athletics as an instant action, rather than the normal 10 feet.
So, what, if you have Athletics 5, you can run 35 feet up a wall as an instant action?
What the fuck is this? Even Assassin's Creed characters aren't this good.
>>47123953
Athletics 5 is literally the peak of human capability.
>>47123982
CofD talks a lot of hot shit about how 5 dots means "peak of human capacity, holy shit!", when the difference between 2 dots and 5 dots is just... 1 success on average.
>>47124003
>Talking about the difference between average and exceptional
>Using an average statistic
u wot m8
>>47123820
Aside from BtP's Advanced and Epic Merits, which I absolutely fucking loathe, the other 2e splats don't actually have Merits that 'like the standard mortal ones, just better'. In fact quite a few vamp and were merits have explicit Drawbacks instead.
>>47124035
Do you not know how dice work?
>>47123953
>Mage Assassins Creed
Would play the SHIT out of that.
>>47124123
>Guardians of the Veil
>>47121674
mind 2 space 2 time 2
Your using a space sympathetic yantra granting 0 dice.(pg 122 ). 1 mana
Temporal sympathy also needs its own yantra(pg 193). Didn't say how many dice it grants but lets assume its still 0. 1 mana
Lets say the spell is a Praxes to make the goal easier.
Also, lets assume your a mega asshole and one of the above yantra is also your dedicated tool.(-2 paradox)
Lets say you know him enough to have a medium spacial connection. 2 Withstand.
Assuming they have changed a lot over their lives and haven't always been an asshole, they got a weak temporal sympathy to when they were a kid. 3 Withstand.
Ritual for 15 hours to get up to 8 dice.
-4 dice to raise potency to five. 4 dice.
Psychic Domination +2 reach effect costs 1 mana.
Paradox chance die.
You can now officially start trying. If you spend willpower you can get 3 additional dice but getting the 3 successes needed to ignore resolve can be hard. Also, as long as you get 1 success people with space, mind, or time senses might notice what you are doing. Your doing nothing but pinging peoples mage sight letting them know something is going on.
This spell costs 15 hours and 3 mana to cast. 4-7 dice depending on willpower spending, with a chance die for paradox the chance of it coming up is negligible. If your opponent has any supernatural senses(or any of his friends. Or any of your foes) every time you do this you are leading a trail of bread crumbs to your door.
Also time travel 101. Its hard to make it better, but you can always make it worse.
>>47124257
You're forgetting the tons of Reach a rote has.
>>47124257
What Gnosis are you assuming? 'Cause a starting character wouldn't be able to employ all three Yantras (the -2 Paradox from a Dedicate Tool takes up its own Yantra slot).
>>47124123
Don't they shit out ASS games every year? It won't be long until they get to some fantasy alternative world
>>47124357
>Gnosis 3
>Space sympathy yantra
>Time sympathy yantra
>Mudra yantra
>Rote for Reach out the ass
Easy peasy.
>>47124298
not a rote. Not enough yantra slots. Space needs 1 slot. So does time. the real cost in using those damn sympathies is that they each need a yantra slot and a mana.
>>47124357
Your right. My bad.
1 paradox dice.
So yeah this spell would still be terrible.
>>47124257
I'm not 100% sure, but I think even on a failure you're going to be pinging Mage Sight. For the same reason that a Vampire failing to Dominate someone is still using a magical power, and thus pings Mage Sight.
Also if you don't know his Sympathetic Name you'll need 6 potency, and it's a -2 for each +1 above the base based on Primary Spell Factor and your dots in the arcanum. Assuming Mind 2, that's a total of -8 to hit Potency 6.
Also >>47124357
>rotes always cost 1 XP, regardless of dot price
>rotes for lower-dot spells are just as effective because of lel Reach
>chargen makes you choose 6 dots of rotes
>so you can have two rotes at 3 dots each (worth 2 XP total) or six rotes at 1 dot each (worth 6 XP total)
Wait a sec, is Mage 2e trying to cheat me here?
All of this reminds me, how long is it going to take until someone makes a flowchart to try and intimidate people with how complicated Mage's spellcasting rules are?
>>47124444
>not a rote. Not enough yantra slots.
Gnosis 3.
>>47124483
Honestly I think it's simpler now? At least all the Spell Factors work (mostly) the same way this time around.
>>47122054
>I've run Geist before successfully
Really? With or without the Errata? Asking to see if the guys in my group would be interested in playin
>>47124469
was assuming 1, like the original post >>47121674 said a starting character.
>>47124483
As someone who came onboard CofD with Demon :The Descent, I can already tell you that requires no flowchart. Just from looking at the last 6 or so threads, I feel plenty intimidated by Mage's magic system. The sheer number of moving parts it sports has pretty already killed any potential interest I had in running it.
What greater supernatural template has the most potential to be a legitimately good person, improving the lives of mortals with the help of supernatural powers right from chargen?
>>47124638
It's a lot simpler once you're familiar with it.
Really, just ask yourself, "What do I want this spell to do?" Most of the time, from the answer, you'll be able to figure out how to represent it within the mechanics.
>>47124638
Well to be fair its the entire game in their. So think of it as lurning the entire rules for it.
>>47124660
Demon
>High of Birth, literally makes someone's life better
>>47124660
BEAST
>>47124675
>However, at some point in the following week, an angel investigating the shift in reality will visit the target.
That's just being a dick.
>>47124660
Demon get free benefits from their deals, and if they wanted to, could just not collect on payment.
Probably changelings after that, for similar deal-making shenanigans.
>>47124625
I didn't even know there WAS errata! I definitely enjoyed running it, though.
>>47124660
Sin-Eaters
>>47124675
Depends on the Beast IMO
>>47124715
So Lucifer from... well.. Lucifer?
>>47124719
Yeah 1.11 took a year and a half to make, it's why there isn't any supplement books. Evidently 1.0 was rushed out and came out kinda broken, so people lauded it and made a joke of it
Kinda hoping it gets the 2e treatment and get's supplements. I like the concept.
>>47124714
It won't really matter to a mortal. A Stigmatic, or someone in close orbit to a Demon, maybe, but it won't affect a mortal directly.
>>47124661
>It's a lot simpler once you're familiar with it.
This is true. It's also an incredibly inane and unhelpful statement.
>>47124772
>It won't really matter to a mortal.
An angel? Yes, it will.
>>47124782
Not really. It's saying that it appears complicated, but once you've read through it all and played with it, you realize that it's actually less complicated than it appears.
As opposed to, say, Exalted, which is still complicated even when you're familiar with it.
>>47124748
Yeah, I could definitely tell it wasn't the most balanced, even as my first WoD game. I don't feel balance is a huge issue as long as you've got a decent group, though—and I was blessed with a really great group of players back when I ran it.
Also, I'm definitely hoping for a Geist 2e too. I'd love to take another crack at running it some time with the updated rules.
>>47124815
It's just investigating them. Not attacking them, or in any way interfering with their life. Odds are, it might find a bit of Aether, or something cluing it in that a Demon was involved, but it probably won't do anything about it unless the God-Machine had plans involving that specific mortal being in their previous specific station.
>>47124891
Would you say it'd be OK for crossover games?
>>47124815
Nothing in the Demon rulebook implies Angels go around sniffing out proof of Demon deals, or punishing mortals that make them.
Now a Demon that is being pursued, probably. But just looking for random signs of Demon seals while on general patrol? Naw, it seems like Deals are a subtle Demon power, and don't trigger pursuit from Angels.
>>47124960
Not that guy, but if you get rid of the factions, sin eaters make great antagonists in other games.
>>47124997
Huh? Sin-eaters didn't even really have factions. It was a feature of the book.
'Make your own factions, because none of them last long enough for anyone to remember them'
>>47125045
"type" then
the thresholds and archetypes
basically everything beyond "powerful ghost half-possessing dead man, has vaguely ghostish powers" can be thrown out for the better
>>47121825
So, how's that crow taste?
>>47123773
Because Mages are pretty much the undisputed kings of running Mystery Cults?
I mean, every single Order runs them, and they're one of the primary focuses of the Seers, Guardians, and even the Ladder (though they're just as likely to run a mundane organization as an occult one.) So it makes sense for them to get an upgraded version.
The only people who do it better than Mages are Mummies - and remember they get their own version of the Merit, too, that's even better.
Think
>>47125353
>increasing the Withstand level by one
Sounds right to me. It's not decreasing the sympathy's strength, its upping their numerical Withstand rating by 1.
>>47125353
Their Withstand rating goes up by 1. The Connection remains the same.
>>47125353
>increasing the Withstand level against the Sympathetic Range attainment by one.
Exactly like I said, dumbass.
>>47125353
>all this bigotry against aname individuals
>>47124474
Rotes cost a dot.
So if you had 2 of 3 dots, that would have cost 2 XP because it's 2 rotes.
Or, if you had 6 of 1 dot, that would have cost 6 XP because it's 6 dots.
They're not trying to cheat you, they're trying to offer you an option.
>>47125430
>aname
>>47125436
That's his whole point: if you buy two 3-dots rotes, you're only getting 2XP's worth of rotes, but if you buy three 2-dot rotes, you're getting 3XP's worth of rotes.
Now, the fact that 3 dot rotes are considerably more powerful than 1 dot rotes justifies the increased dot-cost, but then it doesn't justify an increased XP cost, so you're stuck working out the optimal order in which to acquire rotes so as to pay less XP than someone who bought them in the suboptimal order.
>>47125436
One of those options is 4 XP objectively better.
>>47125353
..I'm not sure how to take this, to be honest.
The Withstand section exclusively uses the term "Withstand rating", never "level". And that would match up with how it worked in 1e. But Level isn't used elsewhere, either... so it could be a typo.
I think you're right, though, because that would make the most sense (and fit with how it worked in 1e)
>>47125479
>Now, the fact that 3 dot rotes are considerably more powerful than 1 dot rotes
Nope, not by a longshot.
A 1 dot rote gets you a massive 5 Reach, and some of the Reach options for 1-dotters are fucking good.
>>47125468
It's a large, important and above all serious issue.
Zefezefe are still discussing the choice of name. The problem being the lack of a name, while representative of ooooor issue, makes it impossible to search and find out more about ooooor cause, rights and beliefs.
>>47125484
Yeah, but perhaps not more practical.
>>47125479
>Min-Maxing
>Building your character as a collection of dots on a sheet, optimized for cost
>Instead of as a collection of ideas and characteristics, optimized for fun
>In a game with flat XP costs
kek
>>47125512
What the absolute hell are you talking about?
>>47125539
Welcome to /tg/
It stands for traditional games.
>>47125557
The many people, oppressed and disregarded, who have lived burr lives without the constraints of names, like the aslenamed.
Zefezefe don't use the term nameless, as it's considered derogatory.
>>47123430
I don't think any of those guys are gonna care as long as you aren't slaughtering entire regions. No one is going to step up if you decide to Time kill Vampires. At this point every Vampire Prince should be a servant of the local Seers.
>>47123394
Bodhisattva Predator: Having transcended into something greater, Lycaon-Ur has an increased Essence Pool and Essence per turn capability. He is capable of entering the Sacred Hunt at any time without needing to perform the rite, simply gaining the Siskur-Dah Condition against a prey of his choice. He is a set part of reality and cannot be removed from it except by his death; attempts to delete Lycaon-Ur from the timeline, rewrite reality so that he is not part of it or otherwise utterly unmake him will fail.
>kill all the low level werewolves in the world
>only the werewolf gods are left
>>47125616
Yeah, because that's what Seers want, a war with vampires.
>>47124960
I'd say so, yeah. Especially if the game plays into the core themes of Geist. I could easily see them working alongside Mages, Prometheans, Hunters, and others—and as >>47124997 pointed out, they could potentially be powerful antagonists for any game.
I've been tossing around some ideas for a new chronicle myself for a while, and a lot of them involve at least a little bit of Geist crossover. I may just have a particular soft spot for it, though.
>>47125669
Do you also consider it a war when you bug bomb your house?
>>47125669
Before:
>We are the rulers of the Fallen World!
After:
>Oh god, my blood!
>>47125659
I forgot Lycaon-Ur existed
Can't wait til we get an Imperial Mysteries book for Werewolf.
>>47125699
You've never seen the bugs at my house.
>>47123953
Parkour has been a thing in WoD since the Werewolf book about Territories. I take it for almost every character.
>>47124123
I've played an Assassin's Creed inspired Mage. He was a Space based Mastigos being trained to become Interfector. His shadowname was Alamut and his mentor was il-Sabbah. He even had a wrist bracelet with a sliding out-the-front knife thanks to Jury-Rig.
>>47124381
They said they're taking a break this year. Then promptly put out a game and said "oh, this one doesn't count". I wish cheap 10$ Steam games were better than a lamer version of Mark of the Ninja.
>>47125659
That's great. Now what do vampires get?
>>47125372
You would think occult minded Vampires would be pretty good at it too seeing as how being one of the walking dead can make it somewhat difficult to meet social obligations.
>>47125922
Did you ever see Dark Decree?
When really old and really powerful, vampires are practically walking ministries themselves. Lesser ministries, but still. They are a conspiracy, and at its heart lurks a Beast.
>>47125922
Probably just using blood magic to track down that someone did something stupid to a prince, then making their life absolute hell until they are super dead.
Too bad Vampires can't turn mages into vampires (they made the mistake of trying that before).
>>47125954
>Too bad Vampires can't turn mages into vampires (they made the mistake of trying that before).
blood sorcery is more than enough
>>47125922
Caine walks straight out of owod and cockslaps everyone
>>47125557
They're mocking a disenfranchised group because it's funnier than attempting understanding.
>>47125512
>>47125468
Dumb as that person is, the concept of a Mage without a name is pretty interesting. If you never actually name a child, would they end up with "Hey, you" as their Sympathetic Name? What if someone dies before you can form your Sympathies with the name they give you? What about feral children?
What about Genie?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child)
I could see a Left-Handed Mage trying to do experiments like this. But then, would the Sympathies of labeling which child is which (as you'd need to do in any experiment) create a Sympathetic name, even if the children aren't actually aware they're named "Subject A"?
I think I need to add this Mage--maybe even a Cabal--to my city mage list.
>>47125954
Yay we got the Tremere from that.
>>47126003
That left-handed mage's experiment group would be more interesting.
>>47126003
>I could see a Left-Handed Mage trying to do experiments like this.
It's more a silver ladder thing, raising children up outside of some of the constraints of the fallen world
>>47125922
If it follows the current trend, something shittier that costs more(in both exp and Vitae), does less, and isn't actually a permanent innate ability.
If it follows the trend that is. Hopefully A Thousand Years of Night will prove me to have been overly pessimistic.
>>47126003
Sympathetic Names come from what other people think of them as.
So, if you never name a kid, and just think of them as "Kid", that's their Sympathetic Name.
Genie's Sympathetic Name, logically, is Genie.
Subject A would also be Subject A, Sympathetically, because that is the name people think of them as.
>>47126062
Take over orphanage, raise them all as the same name and use Mind to ensure you and other workers don't differentiate between them
>>47125954
It worked out pretty well for the Theban.
>>47125954
>>47126027
Actually, oWoD Tremere weren't the result of a Mage being Embraced. Pretty sure they've addressed that in a book before, and the Mage just loses all their magic.
Tremere were born of the man himself, a static mage(equivelant of a Sleepwalker with Second Sight merits, or a Proximus) doing a ritual to make himself immortal. He *also* lost his magic as a result, and then made Thaumaturgy so he could continue to jerk himself off magically while also being immortal.
>>47126079
Differentiating between them wouldn't matter. Jim down the street and Jim next door have the same Sympathetic Name, but you're still going to affect just one of them with a spell, whichever one is your intended target, assuming you have any other piece of information that differentiates them.(Otherwise, you probably can't even cast the spell)
>>47125669
No war here, only a one sided extermination via Time/Space/Death/Mind/Forces abuse that the stupid little bloodsuckers have no means of countering, or even detecting in the first place for that matter.
>>47126106
>Differentiating between them wouldn't matter. Jim down the street and Jim next door have the same Sympathetic Name, but you're still going to affect just one of them with a spell, whichever one is your intended target, assuming you have any other piece of information that differentiates them.(Otherwise, you probably can't even cast the spell)
That's because Jim is different from other Jim, they've had entirely different lives.
These children you would raise in direct opposition to Mind and Space. they would not think as individuals, they would not be separate from each other
>>47126036
They'd be doing it by horribly scarring a group of children. I don't think the Ladder would do something like that, and it's definitely more of a Guardian thing at that (They care about breeding and reincarnation, and the Hieromagus would likely have no Sympathetic Name). Definitely not something the Seers would do, either, since Sympathetic Names are the chains of the Lie. Honestly, it seems like the kind of thing that the Mysterium would hide and accept, since they do that with a lot of Left-Handed Mages.
>>47126062
>>47126106
Genie isn't her real name. Obviously whether or not she even realized she had a name isn't something that gets written about in these articles, either. I mean, she had no first language. That's pretty significant. Hell, just replicating the things Genie's father did to her as a Mage experiment would be an interesting problem for the players to solve. Especially if there was a cover up to keep the experiment from being revealed.
You could probably keep it so that YOU don't form the first pangs of Sympathy with a child, and it seems like they need to be aware that they are who they're referred to, so simply keeping from regularly calling them the same thing would help in keeping them from developing a Sympathetic Name. With Space, you could also keep from imprinting on them yourself by undoing any connections that might form towards you.
>>47126106
Talking about CofD Tremere, don't much care about oWoD Tremere. Though, thanks for the info about the difference.
>>47126160
>or even detecting in the first place for that matter.
considering how hard it is to even cast a spell on one person, you're not going to wage a awar against vampires without the vampires knowing and reacting to it
one of the first dot powers rips secrets from peoples heads, others hide you from mind magic
Jeez, Consilium/Order Status is damn strong.
If you have Consilium/Order Status 3-5, once per chapter, you can get yourself a free Social Merit at 1-3. Permanently. It keeps piling up.
>Finally, Seers of the Throne Status adds to the character’s Resources for acquiring mundane items and services.
Resources 5 + Seers of the Throne Status 5 = Resources 10, richest person on the planet.
>>47121674
>Step 3. Spend 3 Mana and fire your Psychic Domination rote with Spatial Sympathy and Temporal Sympathy
Let me stop you right there. You can't use Sympathetic Range on this spell, because the Temporal Sympathy attainment specifies that it's used with spells cast at Sensory range (to the subject's present form). This stipulation plus the need to spend a Yantra slot on a sympathetic representation that probably doesn't give you any dice makes it fairly hard to use this ability on someone who considers you an enemy, you'd be better off aiming your debilitating spells at the present moment.
>aiming for "the earliest possible point in their life wherein they could have killed themselves
The rules aren't specific here but as a Storyteller I wouldn't allow this. Aim your time-shifted spells by specifying the date or the targeted age of your subject, not with reference to external factors that would need other Time spells to discover.
>>47126160
What makes you think there is no means of detecting it?
Do vampires not have any sort of occult means of seeing the unseen, seeing possible futures or pasts, checking the connections between people?
What the heck are theban sorcerers and them blood witches doing all day, jerking off in period blood?
>>47126106
Actually my good sir I was speaking of the Tremere Liches. Who were transformed a group of mages into breath stealing vampire/mage like creatures.
They latter became full on mages again latter.
>>47126199
>because the Temporal Sympathy attainment specifies that it's used with spells cast at Sensory range (to the subject's present form)
Sensory range -> Spatial Sympathy
>>47126199
hmm. disregard this, I suck dicks.
>>47126196
>Resources 5 + Seers of the Throne Status 5 = Resources 10, richest person on the planet.
It's a more limited form of the Invested merit from the Invictus (which lets you put the status dots in resources, retainers, herd or mentors
>>47126212
>Do vampires not have any sort of occult means of seeing the unseen, seeing possible futures or pasts, checking the connections between people?
They have many. The most commonly available is Blood Sorcery's Divination theme, which goes back forward or sideways in time.
>>47126290
So yeah, no, any mage who tries to time travel frag a vampire of any consequence, probably getting raped to death.
>>47126290
>>47126344
>Blood Sorcery book
>using 1e material with the vaguest of translation guidelines to 2e
Sure buddy.
>>47126163
Unless they all look 100% identical, with no differentiating factors at all, then it's not going to matter.
Actually, technically, if they don't think as individuals(which you didn't mention in your first post) they wouldn't develop Sympathetic Names at all, because they have no sense of self.
>>47126358
The 2e vamp book says repeatedly to use it.
>>47126378
>The 2e vamp book says repeatedly to use it.
I saw your shame.
>>47126358
Blood and Smoke talks about using it. So yay seems legit to me.
>>47126378
>>47126396
>>47126399
Exactly what I said about "vaguest of translation guidelines to 2e."
>>47126062
>Genie's Sympathetic Name, logically, is Genie.
I don't think so. I believe "Genie" was the name given to her by either the rescuers or the researchers involved in her case, which didn't happen to her until she was 13. It's unclear if she had a name before that—and for our purposes it's probably more interesting to assume she didn't. If you develop a sense of self without having been named, then what's your Sympathic Name? That's a really interesting question.
I don't know the answer, but I think the idea of a person or group dedicated to finding out (like >>47126003 suggested) is super cool, and I'd totally steal it if I were running a Mage game.
>>47126453
>if you never name a kid, and just think of them as "Kid", that's their Sympathetic Name.
>>47126423
Well that because it was 1 mear years between the two.
>>47126470
He's saying she might have had a previous name, but no one knows it
>>47126470
Okay, that's your interpretation. I can't say I much like it. Thinking of someone as "my kid" or "that kid" is different from thinking of them as "Kid," and I'm not convinced that the former would form a clear Sympathetic Name.
>>47126470
>>47126524
I don't think something as vague as "the subject" would really create a strong connection, because it's not a definitive thing. The distinction that >>47126550 is a good one. "the child" is a vague thing, as opposed to the more specific namelike "The Child".
>>47126550
So clearly a bored Seer has a Hollow One have a kid with another Hollow One while they're both in full blank mode. From there you use magical servitors to raise the child, preferably automatically and with your memory of the setup sealed until the child reaches sapience.
Do you have to be a dirty crone to be a blood sorcerer?
>>47126652
No. Lancea Et Sanctum gets Theban Sorcery.
>>47126652
No you can also be a holy prostitute.
Some of the big hits of vamp and werewolf were the location sections
I haven't heard aything about them in mage, all people seem to talk about is imba with Time (or bitching about people talking about imba with time) and people who don't know other gamelines thinking they'll get squashed by 2e mages
are thje cities all meh as fuck?
>>47126652
there's other covenants that have it too
the big users are crones and spears
>>47126689
London and Los Angeles are pretty cool, in my opinion, but overall they aren't nearly as developed as Werewolf and Vampire's cities were.
>>47126689
I liked them LA cool as fuck.
>>47126689
We're all busy trying to get our heads around the crunch, I know I at least haven't had time to look at the settings.
As regards the fluffier chapters, I will say the introduction, path and order writeups, and various loredumps about the world mages live in are all very dense, and obviously not written with newbs in mind. The chapter fiction too is kind of underwhelming.
>>47126689
I never read the city sections, so I just don't know.
The section on Proximi is cool (though, it sucks that they only have the one example dynasty).
And talk about sleepwalkers.
>>47126689
Tokyo is pretty weak this time around. London has runes created by walking paths. Salamanca has portals to alternate universes. Tucson has the ghosts of those who haven't died yet. Los Angels has massive Astral possession.
It's consistently good, but there's nothing great like Montreal or Basra, and I wish we'd seen Asia other than Japan or anywhere in the Middle East. One of the big failings in the Mage settings for me is that they still treat the Orders as being universally consistent, and none of the settings have any Nameless.
Am I reading this stuff about Nimbus Tilts correctly? If you choose to have your Nimbus give a bonus toward a skill, you can then freely give people +1 and 8-again on rolls with that skill at no cost whenever you feel like it? That seems... fairly good.
>>47126689
>The Banishers would like to see London’s Awakened turn on one another. While they’d never outright work with the Seers, several Banishers make it their job to keep tabs on what the Seers are up to, and help from the shadows. In the last few years, a particular Banisher has made it his goal to target mages who have strong influence in the Consilium. His victims tend to be quieter figures, ones who offer their opinions in small groups and let more vocal acquaintances spread the message.
In Vampire or Werewolf this guy would have had a name, a distinct modus operandi or something rather than just being "a particular Banisher"
>>47126781
His name is A. Particular.
>>47126689
LA is awesome. It's just that all ANYONE is talking about is Temporal Sympathy, since they can't not take the bait.
>>47126824
His business card says "A. Particular, Banisher".
>>47126844
>LA is awesome.
What makes you say that?
>>47126844
This is helped by no one bringing anything else up.
>>47126689
Tokyo's shit and the other three have about one mildly interesting gimmick and a whole lot of nothing else.
>>47126746
>Thinking Montreal was the standout
I mean, it's neat, but I don't think I'd want to play there.
>>47126781
I don't really mind that. It lets you fill in the blanks with whatever you want. I just need the vaguest idea. I'd probably never use the names given in Vampire anyway.
>>47126868
The Astral Realms are bleeding through and people are being possessed by Morpheans.
I need to look through LA for my Silent Hill game, since it's "LA but spookier".
>>47126872
>>47126844
>This is helped by no one bringing anything else up.
This is definitely true.
I wanted to make a Consilium's worth of Mages...
