>>47108247
So, are Cataphracts 10/16 and 5 boxes now? Because that's... pretty bad.

Where the fuck is the Molik Karn nerf? That one-eyed sumbitch made it through virtually unscathed.

>>47108306
We don't know what they are, that's the point. They laid point costs down and talked about their loss of boxes, and that's it.

>>47108306
Only in comparison to MkII. Until the ball drops we don't really know the whole context.

>>47108313
Losing Side Step and the nerf to Beat Back hit him pretty hard.

Like, Molik can still do what he used too, but only with Makeda3, it sounds like. He's not a monster assassin with every single Skorne caster anymore.

>>47108313
Sidestep is now a bond with Makeda, so he can't do it with any old warlock now. That's a pretty solid nerf, honestly.

>>47108306
Acuraii (spear launcher with drag) 11/17
cetrati (shieldwall unit) 13/20
incindiarii 12/18

5 wounds

so if they get hit with any armor debuff should die to a charge attack.

>>47108247

great concept, I only wish you had thrown more shakers into it

>Spiny Growth is SELF target
>Carnivean still has Spiny Growth

First spoiler I've seen so far I just... really dislike.

>>47108335
if tibbers was in the pic i would have

>>47108332
Nigga those are point costs. They all went down to DEF 11

>We also took a look at the DEF of the Cataphracts relative to the rest of the infantry in the Faction and lowered it to 11.

>>47108313
Just the loss of superlative Fury control in the faction hurts Molik Karn. Some of the heavies are dropping to 3 Fury. If that hits MK he loses a lot of his range as a missile.

>>47108352
ok now i'm even more saltier

>some people think the Agonizer got nerfed

http://www.strawpoll.me/10138678

Poll to see what factions people PLAY (not own).

>>47108342

I'm curious how they're going to handle Carny since they clearly want him to be the beast wrecker out of its chassis group after Scythean got reworked.

So far with the Spiny Growth change and losing a point of speed, I'm not sure how they'll do it.

>>47108388

Well, honestly, if they wanted to make him a "wrecker" they would just buff his arm attacks.

Just make him P+S 18 on his fists and he will beat up heavies like a boss.

I don't know if he is technically their "beater" though. The Scythean really only lost an attack. If he is still P+S 17 he can still wreck heavies if he wants.

The Carnivian might be the "tank" honestly. If he has Spiny Growth that only works on himself (and I am personally hoping Spiny Growth doesn't just do dmg to beast/jacks anymore) he could be interesting if he got some sort of Arm Buff or other defensive tech.

He could also stand to loose his spray just to keep his points down.

Listening to Skorne, Cryx, and Legion players cry their eyes out over some nerfs is like seeing that spoiled teenage girl screech at her dad over how her new car is the wrong color. You'll live, cupcake.

>>47108388

He'll still have the highest PS attack in the group, and the Scythean is (marginally) worse at cracking armor, not sure if that's *enough*.

But heavy defenses seem to be down across the board, so it may be.

Still just fundamentally annoyed at a defensive animus that's self only on a heavy.

>>47108510
Wasn't Skorne kinda shit before? I don't play the game so maybe I'm wrong but that's kind of what I always read/heard.

>>47108510

At least over here things haven't been too bad.

I've seen less combined bitching from all three than Trolls after Warders got nerfed.

>>47108557
Skorne has consistently underperformed and now their best options got nerfed.

>>47108557

Yeah a lot of their stuff sucked but those stupid elephants had like 20 PS 25 attacks and could charge you from 30" away. It's about time PP did something to address the clearly retarded pieces Skorne had like Molik Karn and Titans.

>>47108388
I think the idea is you use Spiny Growth to help him survive on the way in, and then you get him in there and don't bother to use it at that point.

Remember, the design philosophy is supposed to be "You can no longer do everything forever with your warbeasts."

>>47108247
I hope Zu is the new Hordes faction.

>>47108557
Well, yeah. Skorne had pretty bad problems with things not working well together. Basically, not a lot stacked in the army. The concept seemed to be something along the lines of "Menoth, but in Hordes and with more whipping", but where Menoth is really good at stacking buffs, Skorne buffs don't play nice with each other. The best example I can think of that we know has been fixed is the Ancestral Guardian/Immortal interaction. Both model types were statues animated by the souls of venerated ancestors, and the Immortals were a unit that were really slow unless an Ancestral Guardian was nearby. But the Immortals didn't give souls, and the Ancestral Guardian needed souls to do any work. MKIII seems to be working to reduce Skornergy, but we won't know until we really see, and stuff like nerfs to Cataphracts seems kinda crappy, because they weren't that great to begin with.

>>47108510
I can't wait to see the Ret reaction on Monday. I'm brand new to this game, so everything will be pretty meaningless without the internet to provide the cynical filter for my chosen faction.

Nothing in Skorne was that great to begin with, except for Molik and the bronzeback, both of which have been nerfed into oblivion. Molik can still see play with Makeda, but with sidestep gone and beat back ruined there's no point using him with any other caster. The bronzeback now has the defensive stats of jacks that cost half as much, and lost offensive power, and lost animus utility, and lost much of his leadership's usefulness.

What the fuck else do we have? Aradus sentinels and soldiers?

>>47108314

They said they're DEF 11.

>We also took a look at the DEF of the Cataphracts relative to the rest of the infantry in the Faction and lowered it to 11.

>>47108731
Ret players ( not you since you're new obviously ) have always been huge fucking whiners. Ever since the very beginning when they were first released, and Ret was crying about how they didn't have an equal number of things as factions substantially older. There's really no sating those people.

>>47108734
>typical HORDES player
"wah my beast that brings its own spells and can be healed and can soak damage for my warlock costs more and doesn't trivially gain the alpha to 1 round jacks anymore waaaahhh"

In a game where you could take virtually limitless beasts and the only major drawback was they'd "waste" a turn just making 1 auto boosted attack. Cry me a river!

>>47108613
Everyone used Titans because the other heavy options in Skorne were: a pretty decent hit-and-run pterodactyl, a pillowfisted stegosaurus, and the Molik Missile.

I'm fine with the Molik nerfs; they were coming, and he's still plenty decent at fuckin' shit up. The Bronzeback makes me a little salty, because between the DEF nerfs and the drop in Fury, he's not the big-bad alpha male Titan he was. The Bronzeback had some top-notch damage output, but it was all very linear, and you HAVE to bring a Bronzeback, Molik Karn, or at least a Gladiator to have any kind of armor-cracking.

Maybe Titans will be getting more boxes to compensate, or some other tricks, but I'm a little hesitant to fully buy into the new Skorne without more info.

Maybe MK will have something decent for Cyclopes now, with THR going down for lots of models.

>>47108864
>pillowfisted stegosaurus
my next band name

I would love to know what the fucking plan is for that rhinodon

Oh yippee, it has spiny growth, it's still a heavy with a pow 14 melee.

The agonizer is now a tax you have to pay to make your beasts no longer chump speed bumps. Def 12 meant mat 6 missed sometimes, now they're a guaranteed hit. And you might want more than one of them, since a stiff breeze will kill an agonizer and it has to be pretty close to the fight for it to work.

asked this last thread and only got 1 really good response, I know absolutely nothing about skorne so skorne players does the article leave you optimistic or pessimistic for your faction in mk3? like would you advise people to pick it up or advise them against it?

>>47109179
The only way skorne can be fixed after this insider is by more support bloat.

Ok, so Ret changes remain fairly minimal so far, which I'm fine with since I think we were fairly balanced to begin with,
Although some more armor krak would be nice, no?

But to talk about another faction i've always been interested in playing, dono about you, does anybody have any info on:
Farrow + Minions in general?
It's time for the pigs to rise up, I REALLY want an excuse to use my Lord Carver, I love that model.

>>47108247
I am honestly shaken in wanting to play Skorne. But I guess that's not in line with faction politics. The Skorne way is loving the pain.

>>47108613
The Bronzeback currently goes to SPD6 nonreach outside of certain casters. How very broken.

>>47109214

Very excited to see Wrong-Eye & Snapjaw gain starcrossed, arguably one of the strongest dice-manipulation abilities in the game.

>>47109326
With three initials and beatback and the ability to murder whatever it got too without needing it's initials to do so.

>>47109179
I think a lot of people are mildly salty because it looks (emphasis on "looks") like a lot of mainstay models from MKII aren't going to be as useful. So the guys you used aren't going to see the table very much anymore, and the guys nobody used (like Slingers) are apparently rad.

With the shift towards less multiwound infantry and more warnouns and single-wound infantry, I think units like Swordsmen will really come into their own. I think a New Skorne list'll probably have two to three heavies, three-ish lights, two units of single-wound infantry, and some support. Maybe one unit of single-wound, one unit of multi-wound, and some artillery. Grievous Wounds and Overtake on a unit of Swordsmen+UA is going to clear out a TON of shit.

Overall, I'd say that Skorne's playstyle seems to be changing. The old meta was basically "deliver Molik", and a departure from that to what looks like a few layers of weird beast/unit/support interaction should be refreshing.

I just want bloodrunners to be viable, I love those models but goddamn if they aren't pretty shit currently

>>47109521
Their new stuff looks pretty interesting.

Shadow Play was neat but hard to make do anything, Appritation and 3" Reposition sounds much more viable for skirmish troops.

>>47109521
Why use our more expensive swordsmen instead of our cheaper nihilators?

>>47109558
Because Swordsmen are RNG1 now, and if their keep their other stuff, they're be two attack, side stepping, auto wounding, denying tough attackers.

They'll dig deeper than Nihilators and they'll kill a whole lot more.

>>47109179

Shit, I don't know. We were going to make Mordikaar work someway, somehow, anyway if he kept his feat and he kept his feat. The calculus of what exactly is a necessary armor-cracking crew is up in the air and not looking easier (hint: it was going to take Titans or Cataphracts and they both got worse at it for various reasons). But the job got more important because whether they wanted to or not, anybody you are running into is bringing more jacks and beasts and skorne infantry is still for fighting infantry.

Cataphract spam got worse in general, but had a long way to fall. Lower hit-boxes means the new krea animus may still work out for them. And really, half the point of having more than one hitbox on your infantry was just having more than one hitbox. Five is as good as eight for a lot of key purposes.

Agonizer is nice. Expensive. Essential. And that's even before considering it's uses as a control element and assassination aid.

Going to miss Krea's no-dice-rolls-required MAT buff potential. 3 inches is nice. Praetorians and the like probably won't notice the difference in the animus, but Immortals will. (15ARM+2 is cornercase, 17ARM+2 is awesome). Cataphracts, Beasts, and the like definitely will what with all the DEF nerfs- they're getting hit, +2 Def or no +2 Def.

Karn is still Karn for the Makedas. The Makedas seem to have improved.

The ranged beasts don't seem to be support beasts anymore; they have Far Strike, it's for themselves and only themselves, and they can't be transfer targets under normal conditions. Maybe if you're hugging a bronzeback with a Canonneer but I don't see the distances working out for that. If the Canonneer isn't boosting blasts and not being transferred to it may lose its slot to the Catapult of all things, we'll see how things shake out.

>>47109214
I think the nerf to Mage Hunter Strike Force is more than minimal.

>>47109597
Also, Marketh had his balls chopped off.

There's like 3 or 4 spells in all of Mk 2 Skorne Marketh can cast now that aren't shitty nukes. Either spell cards are going to need a huge re-evaluation, or he's done as a support piece. Some of our casters don't have a single spell he can use.

>>47109676
I'm pretty inclined to believe that they changed what the hell he does given that, don't you?

He's likely supporting in a new way.

>>47109702
No, they've openly said he has spell slave. And unlike the skarlock he doesn't even get his own spell on his card to cast.

>>47109597
I think the Krea will work really nicely with the advent of all the High Explosive shenanigans. Especially with Keltarii and their native +2 def vs shooting. DEF 17 and immunity to blasts will really help get them up the field to deliver some pokenings.

>>47109727
Only Khador has High Explosive so far, and only on two pieces.

>>47109711
And I'm willing to bet he has more than just that.

But they already showed some spells will be worth casting anyways. Makeda1's new spell will most certainly be worth casting through him, -2THR on hit against enemy beasts promises to be useful if Fury is getting harder to deal with. Hell, you can put Fury on their beasts anyways with the Agonizer as well. Even a THR9 beast at that point is looking for a 6 or less, and if beasts are sitting at THR6-7, then it's going to be pretty fucking nasty.

>>47108861
Anon, you do realize Skorne is not Legion, right? They were having their shit kicked in for most of Mk2 until they finally got some halfway decent releases that propped up the faction enough to give them a chance against the rest of the factions. They were basically Minions-tier.

>>47109743
Two really good pieces we'll probably be seeing a lot of, on top of the general improvements to light artillery meaning more shooting/blasts in general.

>>47109790
Gunbugs with ancillary attack were the first thing in skorne to really make me go "Hey, maybe I have something I can do in this faction other than going for Molik" and then ancillary attack got taken out. I had so much fun with eHexeris and gunbugs and raiders by the end of Mk 2. Maybe the new slingers will help keep that going, maybe not.

>>47109790
And this Insider provided them with far more buffs than Legion or Cryx got.

One of Skorne's big problems in Mk2 was they only had one real way to do anything: brick up and deliver Karn/Bronzeback.

So yea, that shit got nerfed, because it was powerful and one dimensional as shit. In return, Skorne picked up some real scenario pieces, some more utility, and some more interesting tricks.

I mean, fuck, you can run two Cannoneers with a Bronzeback now, have them fully load themselves every turn, and then between the Bronzeback and PGBHs, they're only sporting one Fury each. So you've got a decent shooting package with a pocket heavy to close the game with, and that's before you get into whatever your caster does to boost them.

>>47109834
Croak raiders that is. Though cyclops raiders helped too.

>>47109834
AA got dropped because of eMorg, I'm betting.

You move up, blind their caster, slingers move up and flare their caster, and then you just lob shots into their caster needing trivial to hit and putting up 4 dice shot/3 dice AA shots.

It would have been the new eLylyth, honestly.

>>47109840
If your pocket heavy can survive to end game with the def nerf.

>>47109863
Yes, yes, because 10/19 is an unlivable stat line that nobody in the game has ever had and can never survive with.

I played with 10/19 heavies in Mk2 and did just fine. You'll be fucking fine.

>>47109597
Makeda1 got taken out back and shot. She was honestly pretty balanced as is, with her feat just being kinda a dud. Losing Defender's Ward and Savagery for Quicken and some new spell which doesn't seem to do much seems like a poor trade.

Makeda 2 is more of a sidegrade. She still really doesn't have a ton of fury to spend on Stay Death and Storm Rager means she's a wash really (loss of the Krea armor buff hurts), but not as killy as before, but she can also make solos killier.

Makeda3 is the only one that got a straight improvement and even then, it might not be enough. She still struggles real hard against control effects and she's not Butcher3 levels of killy.

>>47109886
>>47109758
Makeda1 has the tools to absolutely fuck over Warbeasts now.

Her Shield Guard spell I'm out on the fence about, yea. It's a question of how much it costs, if it's an upkeep, and so on. Cheap upkeep spell with two bugs to shield guard for you would let her play super far forward.

>>47109886
I'm excited to put Storm Rager on Hakaar, but that's about it desu.

>>47109790
I don't think so. They always seemed to do well enough when I saw them played, and they had some big names constantly mentioned on the internets. They certainly weren't miniors tier.

>>47109558
Except for the part where they're mat 6, you need a solo for the tough part, and you need a UA for the Sidestep (and that's only if it still has that rule). Unless they get some kind of additional rules, they're still staying on the Shelves because Nihilators do everything Swordsmen want to do, only with no support bloat and cheaper overall. To be competitive, Swordsmen would have had to be a cost 10 unit MAX with their current rules or have CMA.

>>47109921
Again, Side Stepping, Overtaking, Perfect Striking, Grevious Wounds Swordsmen can eat through an entire front and mid line of models, something Nihilators can't do at all.

>>47109840
>Decent Package
>Def 10, Arm 18, 26 Boxes of Mat 5, Rat 4
>DECENT

Anon please. You're being delusional. The gun is the only thing the cannoneer brings.

>>47109880
How many 10 cost 10/19s did you use in Mk2? Unless bronzeback gets a massive point reduction, it's as survivable as a 10 point crusader in mk3.

>>47109880
You do realize the Canoneer is 10/18 with like 25 boxes, right? It dies to a stiff breeze.

>>47109951
The Bronzeback is the pocket heavy.

>>47109964
And it's pretty god damn far back, given it's sniping itself every turn.

>>47109911
She has Fury 6 with no way to cast upkeeps now. It's bad man. She is in a bad place.

>>47109980
Everything I just talked about doesn't involve her casting anything but maybe the shield guard spell. And if it's an upkeep and Marketh kept Soul Tap, she can upkeep it for free.

>>47109946
Yes. Because Nihilators just move a couple guys up and eat through the front and midline by themselves without having to worry about hitting multiple times to dig in or getting blocked off, can threaten farther, and can threaten more things with base pow 12 and Mat 7.

My Khador jacks never had trouble surviving off 10/20. :^)

>>47109993
You do realize most Skorne units outside of the ones that were nerfed have mediocre mat scores and the faction's infantry have poor defensive stats, right? They need Carnage up, the need something to defend them once they get up in melee. -2 Threshold on a 3" Aoe is real goddamn cornercase. And unless the shield guard spell costs 1 or is an upkeep, she's still going to have problems because quicken is an upkeep (so you have 4 available fury), and if you need to cast carnage to hit anything (and you will), she's camping 1.

>>47109880
>Yes, yes, because 10/19 is an unlivable stat line that nobody in the game has ever had and can never survive with.

Wasn't popular. Basically the hallmark of a "only ever plays character warnouns/collossal and never looked back" faction.

Seriously though, the obvious problem is that it appears to be comparatively more difficult to get equivilent results in what was already a fine-tuned element of skorne's operation. You paid for the titans so you didn't have to worry about the rest of the list not being able to do the things titans could do. What if titans can no longer do what titans can do? Bears worrying about. Gameplay and list construction will have to turn towards unfamiliar territory.

>also Canoneers aren't that reliable in melee; when I played them it was either a last resort thing or a "with the power of two titans I can now do the work of one!" thing. God help them with a net fury-2 deficit each; it took the both of them swinging those maces to take out one Khador heavy as it was. And they certainly aren't going to get missed even once by a Conquest now, gnawing pain will cover for Diminish but it's going to be five swings instead of two...

>*wince*

>going to need some new plans, guys. We lost our margin with the pachederms, I think. They
*balanced* us, there. They'll have made up for it *somewhere* else but we're going to have to find out where.

Did anyone else notice how the insider says that going melee instead of ranged is a core theme of theres? That has me real worried for all the ranged options we got near the end.

>>47108388
>So far with the Spiny Growth change and losing a point of speed, I'm not sure how they'll do it.

My predictions based on various forum proposals.

Spiny Growth goes down to 1 fury. This apparently also happened to the Cannonneer when its animus also became Self Only.

Claw attacks get buffed so it can kill heavies more reliable.

Carnivean price gets lowered so it's not such a pain to pay for. You already see this happening with lots of other heavies.

Spiny Growth expands to include models other than jacks and beasts. Armor Piercing expanded to affect small models and Anatomical Precision now ignores Tough, so there's precedent.

Now the Carnivean can run up, pummel on a target, and if it's only got 1 fury left and it doesn't look like it'll kill the target, it'll pop the final fury to give itself Spiny Growth and make it a bit tougher/disuade some counterattacks.

No matter what happens, I hardly expect the only difference between the Mk2 and Mk3 Carnivean card text to be "Self Only".

>>47108861
Butthurt Cryx player detected

>>47110242

legion's said we're the fast attack alpha strike faction and then they nerfed our heavies' speed so I wouldn't put too much into their stated themes

>>47110323
They nerfed one set of your beasts Speeds.

You still have SPD7 beasts, man.

And you still have some of the best movement tricks in the game.

>>47110323
>legion's said we're the fast attack alpha strike faction and then they nerfed our heavies' speed so I wouldn't put too much into their stated themes

Even after the nerf, they remain the fastest heavies in mk3 we've seen so far. There's no other heavy we've seen that can outrange a Scythean, especially if it retains Pathfinder.

And it's one of Legion's slower heavies because the winged ones are apparently even faster, and since they're winged, they fly right over terrain, obstacles, and intervening models- making them even faster.

Context, man.

so, do I get in now or wait a month for the 3rd edition?

>>47110398
get what now?

>>47110398

wait, unless you're absolutely sure which faction you want to play and they have models you want because of how they look

>>47110398
Wait. The starter boxes are just too good a deal.

>>47110429
get into warmahordes, play a bunch of malifaux but the community is dying in my area, so its either warmachine and hordes or 40k, so do I try getting into the game now, when a new edition is on the horizon or do I just wait, how much stuff will become obsolete if I start now?

>>47110333

Aradus Soldier could be good now...

>hell, they could have changed nothing and it'd be good now

So I ordered a menoth box on ebay for $25 because fuck it, why not, menoth looks cool.

Turns out it's an all metal Mk1 box. Was that a good deal?

>>47110458

you will need to buy a new faction card deck for like $20 to get the rules for any models you buy now but nothing will be obsolete. stuff will likely be more effective or less effective though so as I mentioned unless you're decided on a faction and want something for looks it's better to wait

>>47110493

It'll be fine. The only thing you're really losing is the option to magnetize your Crusader with bits from the Crusader/Templar/Vanquisher all in one heavy box.

>>47110242
I kinda have the feeling ranged is going to take over the game. Its 5th ed 40k all over again! Melee is kill! Game over man! Game over!

>>47110580
Hard to judge. The premier ranged faction, Legion, lost a hell of a lot of it's normal punch in that regard.

>>47110636
Isn't cygnar the premier ranged faction

>>47110675
They shot more, but they didn't have as much ability to kill your entire army at range like Legion did.

>>47109521

This!

Its turns out you did right to play alternative lists (rule of cool) when mk3 knocks at the door.

>>47110705

Legion's ability to kill at range was mostly Striders, Dethstalkers, and Ravagores under Lylyth2's feat.

Any hint of Marshals being usable in Mk3?

Gotta say I never really did molik missile. I tended to run titan herds and minions with Rasheth, gunbugs incindiarii and croaks with eHexeris, or Zaal 1 (either in tier, or out of tier with nihilators and swamp shamblers). I did missile back when all I owned was the all-in-one box but haven't really played makeda since expanding my army. I'm excited to see the sentry finally hit mat 6, but overall worried by the def nerf.

>>47110765
Nothing's being said.
I'm sure Marshal's gonna be the next thing to get revealed considering that light artillery was one shitty model type that just got fixed

>>47109644
True, one would assume however that the nerf will allow infiltrators and sentinels some space to breathe, who knows, they might even get point reduction buffs.

Anybody have any idea when they plan on releasing more minion change information?

>>47111033
They're doing Insiders for every faction, and then they answer random questions on the forums.

So who knows.

>>47111044

>every faction

Does that include Convergence and the Cephalyx?

>>47111328
we don't know. I hope so

>>47111328
Convergence yes, Cephalyx are mercs, so they fall under that one.

An Iron kingdoms question here guys. Would a mechanic / jackmarshal from Ios be able to repair, order jacks from rest of Immoren?

>>47111412
No.

>>47111430
Why?

>>47111412
I doubt it. Ios jacks aren't even steam powered.

>>47111437
What about jack marshaling?

>>47111444
To jack marshal you have to speak the language of the jack's cortex and know certain passcodes, it's why rhulic jacks are exclusive and rhuluc marshals can't use other jacks.

>>47111444
In theory, sure.

You just need the password, know the commands for the jacks, and to speak the language.

>>47111436
Ios is an incredibly insular country that doesn't hav dealings with the other nations in Immoren.

>>47108688
isn't Zu an entire continent

Spiny growth is target self and costs 2 fury. +3 arm and does D3 dmg to models that wound in melee. This includes jacks and warriors etc.

I hope Menoth gets nerfed, they are the biggest babby faction around. Constant crying.

I'm a Cryx player and from what I've seen the nerfs make a lot of sense, except the one to Bane Warriors who are now really shitty. 12/15 without Stealth and speed 5 reach 1" and nerf to Bane Lord make them seem completely useless. Knights got a nerf, but a fair one. They will stay in my armies.
Slayer is still kind of meh, but on certain casters will be amazing to spam, Venethrax got Terminal Velocity and Field Marshal Counter Charge. That amazing ass model will finally see the light of day.

>>47111902
>I'm a Cryx player and from what I've seen the nerfs make a lot of sense, except the one to Bane Warriors who are now really shitty.

sasuga, cryx player

Why does Rhul look so fun to paint? Mercs could be a cool army if they didn't constantly get fucked over by having to fill in gaps in other factions.

How do the mind fuckers heavies work? They seem a mix between beasts and Jacks.

>>47110458
Wait. No one knows what things will be competitive in new edition.

>>47109597
>Cataphract spam got worse in general, but had a long way to fall. Lower hit-boxes means the new krea animus may still work out for them. And really, half the point of having more than one hitbox on your infantry was just having more than one hitbox. Five is as good as eight for a lot of key purposes.
Seems like a big deal to me.
Arm 20 5 wounds is killed by single charging pow 11 wm or just pow 19 heavy on averages.
Seems like it's better to just take more single wounders.

>>47112017
>Seems like it's better to just take more single wounders.
>happyCygnaran.jpg
Yes, you're right, heavy infantry have been nerfed into uselessness, I'm sure you can take enough single-wound guys to get past my masses of high rat/boosted/auto-hitting POW10s.

>>47112017
Or maybe they fill a different role now? Instead of each one being basically a mini jack they have created a unique identity where they're between a jack and a single wound model. Likely with a posts cost reduction to match this.

>>47112017
If you don't mind me asking, why is 17arm with 8 boxes worse than 20arm with 5? Either way you've got 25 total to play with, but the higher armour means more small hits like small infantry get negated. It feels like a win/win to me. Especially since the Willbreaker can give them tough and Mordikaar only brought them back with 1 box anyway.

>>47112192
>If you don't mind me asking, why is 17arm with 8 boxes worse than 20arm with 5?
Better than, I mean.

>>47108734
>there's no point using him with any other caster
One of Mk. III's design points seems to be making character beasts no longer strictly better, yet more expensive options for everyone, instead, that they're only really better for their own 'casters.

>>47112744
I hope this is true. Giving a unique beast to each caster would be great. It adds more to your army than just a new warcaster. Problem is making it so that character isn't an auto include in every list with that caster.

>>47112192
People are just whining to whine. Arm doesn't stop some effects hurting you but it's not a huge change either way.

>>47108991
>agonizer is now a tax
Wasn't it an auto-include for Mk. II anyway?

>>47109964
>It dies to a stiff breeze
Which is why it has the Farstrike animus. Yeah, it's going to have to boost to hit, which is what you get when you try guns without Swans stamped on them, but it's also POW 15 AOE 4, which is a nice piece I think. Should have stayed FURY 4 though.

What factions do you PLAY poll

http://www.strawpoll.me/10138678/r

Fill it in if you haven't. Lets get a picture of the meta here.

>>47112778
>auto include in every list with that caster
All we can do is hope. Shit, as much as I like Ol' Rowdy, I hope the big guy gets changed so my first 9 points aren't him or a Defender.

>>47108731
Ret only have one thing notably good enough to nerf

>>47109644
How'd they get hit? No more Phantom or something? No more Stealth?

>>47113301
Not revealed yet.

>>47108731
I'm looking forward to the Ret spoilers on Monday. So long as Myrmidons get put into a position that makes ones other than Griffon, Phoenix, & Banshee actually playable I'm happy.

>>47109597
>and not being transferred

Huh what? Did I miss something? Why can't you transfer to it?

>>47113367
Huh. Do we even know they're getting nerfed? I can't think what you'd take away from them while keeping them good.

But I guess I'm comparing them to the ultra effective infantry of MKII.

>>47109951
>The gun is the only thing the cannoneer brings.

Gun got buffed to AoE 4 and now it has far strike.

In fact that AoE is likely why it lost fury. Warbeast AoEs let you react to lucky drifts. 4" AoE is where you start catching large numbers of enemies under it.

>>47112992
42 unique posters
107 votes, I think the "meta" is represented
with a pretty much standard distribution around 7-9% for everyone except Khador.

>>47113510
They handicap the retribution's design space by being too good. There is no way they can give Ret buffs with them running around. Other units which did this have been nerfed and so we expect the same to happen.

>>47113510
It's 101% certain they will be, they've been hamstringing Ret's design space since day one of Mk2. Ret isn't allowed to have nice things because MHSF is too fucking good.

>>47113553
I don't think Ret were designed as a buff heavy faction. Their units look like they're meant to be mostly self sufficient.

PP just fucked up by making buffs too awesome.

>>47113547

it was posted last thread so you can't use 42

>>47111912
Mercs may be getting a lot more cohesive in MK3. Still waiting and seeing but the removal of contracts helps new players with them.

Cephalyx is who I assume you mean. They have Monstrosities which have brains instead of cortexs. They count as living models and can be healed 1 per point of focus spent during warcasters activation. Otherwise they are just like warjacks in MK2 with the whole allocation thing.

We do already know that in MK3 Monsterosities _will not_ be gaining power up like warjacks. Instead they'll keep focus inbetween turns and gain focus every time they take damage.

>>47113602
I agree but it still limits design space. The Warcasters tend to have a support spell or two and you can't fix the houseguard rifles without buffing the MHSF.

>tfw coc
Nerfs when?

I used to play warmahordes a few years ago in MK2 and Im kinda interested in playing it again.

Someone mind tossing the big changes for MK3 at me? I played Cryx and Legion as my two inb4 tryhard, over competitiveness is why I left the game factions if that helps.

>>47113933
Mostly it's tuning and rebalancing. Couple of system changes that affect troubles across multiple factions. Focus allocation now gives free focus to warjacks so everyone can run them without hamstringing elsewhere, beasts now give fury even when dead to keep warlocks fed, fury-stripping mechanics like from shepards are capped at 1 fury removed per model, and point values have all doubled before rebalancing to give easier access to nuance in point values. All warnouns also doubled to tripled in warjack/beast points to make for larger battlegroups as the centre of each force.

>>47113933

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?249154-Comprehensive-Collection-of-MkIII-Spoilers-(-Spoiler-Alert-)

>>47113842
Recursion already got nerfed(Shit you bring back with an Engima Foundry can't attack same turn) and Lucant is losing Purification, and Watcher is supposedly changing.

>>47114366

And then there is mk3 Mordikaar.

That... is actually something. (Well it will be if Manifest Void interacts with soul vessel. Has anybody asked that question?)

>>47112192
I think we're comparing ARM20+8boxes to ARM20+5boxes.

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>>47113933
I've come to realize that my hate on over competitiveness is a result of me hating that I take things too seriously.

So in essence, I don't want to be over competitive but I end up doing so naturally. So I over compensate externally.

All it took was getting into cycling/soccer for me to figure it out. Thanks exercise!

>>47114700
Sounds like a painful cycle.

My issue was pretty much everyone I played with were all play to win types which meant that every game I would be going against the most cheese strategies for each faction. Butcher 3 with a Deathstar? Cygnar/merc colossi? Circle teleporting around everywhere? I dont actually remember if those were the absolute best, just the ones that stuck out.

It got to the point where I couldnt play what I wanted to play because if I didnt play the best models I had I would be at a distinct disadvantage. I just wanted to play and have fun, I wanted to win of course but I didnt mind if I lost unless it was a pub stomp or my 10th loss in a row.

It was kinda sad leaving it cause I like the game and the mechanics but constantly playing the same games was pretty stale.

>>47113997
>>47114058
Thanks mates.

>>47114964
>Circle teleporting around everywhere
To be fair to Circle, that's all they have that's different.

>>47114964
>My issue was pretty much everyone I played with were all play to win types

Man that sucks.

I mean its okay when someones prepping for a Tourney and practicing a list. But when people in my group are doing that they are asking for their opponents to be bringing out something they are worried about.

What's not okay is if they can't take the tourney hat off ever.

>>47115128
>I mean its okay when someones prepping for a Tourney
I'm fairly certain you don't get to decide when it is or isn't okay for someone to try to win. As long as they follow the rules, suck it up.

>>47113831
Houseguard rifles are pretty good with the Thane. Nice range, relatively accurate, true sight, etc. They could probably stand to hit a little harder but that's it really.

What will the top three new OP factions be?

My guess:
Cygnar
Menoth
Khador

>>47115186
That's not quite what I meant but whatever.

>>47115455
Unless they really rip into Circle's signature tech, they shall remain one of the three OP's.

>>47115455
Cryx, Legion and Circle

>>47115186
Trying to win and playing the absolutely most optimal list are not equivalent.

>>47115455
Even with the infantry nerf, if syntherion keeps synergy the way it is, with the new induct mechanic, convergance vector spam is about to be broke as fuck

Has there been any news about a nerf to overboosting? Because as things are going, it seems beasts are getting more fragile and less capable with warlocks able to camp less. If warcasters can camp to Arm 24 while still fueling all their jacks, I can see most warcasters picking up handfuls of models at a time while being totally safe whereas most warlocks are now going to be super dangerous to play, especially with ones who like to play upfield.

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It will be even more devastaiting...

>>47116180
Nothing's been said, but Maddox's fluff had a bunch of weak attacks overlord her field, so people are thinking that overboosting might get weaker as the Warcaster is attacked.

>>47116180
Doubt it. The way I see it, most people try and camp three focus/fury, just means that Warmachine factions will get more done with 'jacks.

>>47116239
I understood that as them representing how many boxes a caster has compared to most solos.

>>47116180
Transfers lost some of their drawbacks as well, remember.

Grevious Wounds no longer stops transfers, for example.

>>47116239
>>47116285
Pretty sure that's always how the boxes have been represented.

>>47116355
It's nice, I guess? I'm still worried the end result is less durable beasts means each transfer hurts more anyway. And thus, the game slides hugely in the favor of Warmachine casters, who can now force the end game sooner and become far too dominant by removing the beasts easier.

>>47115455
Legion
cryx
circle

Are my guesses.
I can't see cygnar getting better at the armor cracking game.
Khador will likely still have pairing limitations and get hosed by anti cryx lists.
menoth will likely suffer due to boosts being more readily available, killing their casters faster.
trolls are too early to tell.
skorne will still have caster pairing issues

>>47116101
I get the impression that Synergy will be changing.

Syntherion and eVyros would be fucking amazing under these new rules.

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Minions spoilers when?

>>47116858
>implying you're an actual faction

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>>47116925

Just leave me to my pain, anon

Gunbug dominancy over. They only got a single inch more range, to compensate for losing far strike.

Is there anything left in skorne that's viable? Arcuarii and Incindiarii can be killed by a pow 9 charge now. So much for "heavy" infantry.

>>47117087
Do you understand how math works?

>>47112192
Incindiarii and Arcuarii are arm 15 5 boxes. Cetrati are still 20 in shield guard.

>>47117087

At 12/15 (the same as a Bane Thrall/Warrior) they were never all that tanky to begin with. 8 boxes helped, sure, but I've definitely lost Incindiarii to charges from some miserable shit before.

>>47117157
Don't forget the - 2 strength people get for being in the agonizer aura. All your dudes are effectively +2 arm

>>47117148
Are you telling me that arm 15 with 5 boxes isn't killed by a pow 9 on the charge? Pow 9 has to roll an 11 on 3 dice to kill them.

>>47117182
Except that aura doesn't protect against shooting. Two pow 11 trencher shots kills one incindiairii or arcuarii. And 3 pow 10 shots kills the agonizer.

>>47117087
>>47117184
That's hilarious

>>47117184
They're at - 2 strength meaning they need to roll a 13. Not going to happen. Even if you're dumb and don't bring an Agonizer they're unlikely to kill them in one shot.

>>47117203
So they die in one less shot now? That's not a big deal and of your agonizer is getting shot you fucked up. It's a small base that's easy to hide behind all of your dudes.

You guys are crying over nothing

>>47117087
Jesus fucking christ. Well, barring changes, don't know if they'll see much play now. That's the "get 1 turn of shooting, then get charged by something" territory. Chain weapon on the Soldier is cool I guess?

>>47116180

Just because beasts could simply 1-round stuff before, and now have to deal with retaliation doesn't mean its bad, its simply just more fair to the Warmachine players.
You have had your run for a full ed, able to actually field all your cool stuff without so much as a drawback. Running beasts on red, with just about no dangers of frenzy. Throwing damage over to beasts left and right with those undying casters you have. For some damn reason, being better both in offense (more attacks), defense (hey, we are not made of metal, thus should have above average Def), and on top of it having your own "special" spell to exploit. Well I for one am glad to see something done about it, glad to see privateer press is on my side of this for once!

>>47117260
Pow 11 shooting could still kill them with 2 shots unbuffed in Mk 2. The difference is, between Mk 2 and Mk 3, Trenchers gained a point of RAT and cataphracts lost a point of DEF. And in Mk 2, we had a constant +2 arm buff going from kreas which has been removed. Overall we've become much more vulnerable to ranged attacks.

>>47117289
I bought a second aradus kit but decided not to build it, to see if I should make another sentinel, soldier, or try to magnetize it.

Guess this change made that choice for me. Titans are less effective compared to aradus soldiers now, and gunbugs have such pathetic range as to be unusable.

Holy shit, dem Mordikaar and Void Spirits.

>>47117321
It COULD but it didn't on average, assuming the shot hit.
POW11+2d6 = ~18-15 -> ~3 damage
Now it'll 2-shot on average, And those shots are indeed more likely to hit because of the RAT/DEF change.

The charge is 3d6+PS9 -> ~19.5-15 = ~4.5

I don't feel like mathing out the chance to hit and then multiplying it by the chance to do at least 5 damage, so, eh.

>>47117353
Mordikaar lost banishing ward, hollow was nerfed, revive was nerfed, void spirits no longer get boosted attacks vs non-living models. They'll kill more living models overall but lost eruption of ash. It's not as much of an improvement as people think.

>>47117321
You and every other heavy infantry model in the game? Quit your bitching

>>47117387
Can you point to me the other arm 15 heavy infantry?

>>47117379
Yeah you're right, I did the math in my head and mixed it up, it's dice -4 per shot, not 4 damage per shot. I never saw pow 11 shooting in MK 2 because no one used trenchers.

>>47117415
No, because the entire game hasn't been released yet so we have no idea how it all balances out. Which is exactly why you should quit your bitching

>>47117415
I mean, there's ravagers of course, but they're def 13 and have piles of special rules. They're def 17 vs melee in the forests that circle puts everywhere. Ogruns are higher def, higher arm, and have tough.

>>47117469
Guess we should stop all mk3 discussion flat huh then anon ;^)

>>47117488
Or just stop whining like a baby.

>>47117563
whining, praising, getting excited, speculating, it's all about a thing we don't know 100% on, and thus we shouldn't discuss it at all because we don't know everything so what's the point?

>>47117296
Except most beasts don't have guns. And those that do are generally not on survivable platforms unlike jacks and are more expensive. So now you can use a larger quantity of superior guns to alpha my beasts off the table before they even get to you. I play Skorne. I have not played Legion, nor Circle. Most times, I got alpha'd and then had to survive, then counter attack.

>>47117087
Only way I see them being played is if threat ranges got toned down overall. In that case, then, 11" might not be too bad. Itherwise yeah, they're bad now.

So angelii just have AP on their tail and it works on small bases now. Otherwise, no changes.

How is this acceptable? Who is balancing this edition. They nerfed one of the worst factions in the game and then keep the top factions ok? Holy fuck this is piss.

>>47117766
Their entire existence was being a range 14 artillery that was immune to shooting. Now it has to get so close that anything is going to charge and kill it. Threat ranges are being increased across the board. The heavies that trivially kill sentinels got another half inch added, but the sentinels lost 3 inches.

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>>47117903

>>47117953
just put some karax in the way

>>47117960
You don't understand. AP is now a weapon quality. It applies on every attack with that weapon. EVERY. ATTTACK. So a spd 7 eyeless sight, flying beast can just alpha my jacks dead with multiple pow 14 AP attacks and there's fuckall I can do about it.

Animantarax nerfed again.

The ranged attacks once more can't be boosted by rage tokens. It now gets a speed boost for having rage instead of str, which I guess is nice but isn't as good as str imo.

>>47117321
Except you "conveniently" left out the part where those Krea's you mention now give +2 DEF versus ranged attacks and immunity to blast damage.

So Cataphract + Krea = DEF 13 ARM 15 with Immunity to blast damage (not counting any other buffs or shield wall). Sounds pretty good to me.

Now with other higher DEF/lower ARM infantry this makes the Krea really useful for keeping them a bit safer and not mulched by AOEs.

>>47118032
They've said it was still a Special Attack on the Angelius.

>>47118064
They used to be Def 14/Arm 17 with the Krea animus. A straight nerf.

>>47118032
You're an idiot or a troll, AP is still a special attack. Even if it did work how you described please consult the Doom Cycle.

>>47118085
In Mk2 maybe, but this is Mk3 and is totally different game. Any preconceived notions you have about how the game work are worthless and need to be tossed out

>>47118114
Well, so far we know for sure that ranged attacks are getting deadlier based on the spoilers. ROF giving you initials instead of having to buy attacks, some models getting RAT buffs, brutal damage showing up on ranged weapons now, etc.

>>47117903
You seriously think legion and cryx didn't get hit by these nerfs?

Hell, legion now has almost no ranged or melee defense for their shit now, and 11/18 is worse against shooting than 10/19 is

>>47118085
This >>47118114
Skorne isn't all about the melee as it was before. The more combined arms focus is going to change things a lot. Hell for all we know the new Cataphract may have Defensive Line now. Which honestly would be amazing.

>>47118144
Sure, but at the same time, the good guns from mk2 are also getting nerfed. So yea, some shooting is getting better, but the good shooting is getting worse.

>>47118114
Ranged attacks are getting buffed and defenses against ranged attacks are getting nerfed. Models with victim stats are still going to be unplayable.

>>47110481

It picked up Chain Weapon- effective 2 inch increase of threat.

If it stays good on Fury, yeah. Aradus Soldiers could be good now.

>>47118249
That's not what chain weapon does. Chain weapon ignores shields. Chain strike is what you're thinking of.

So its lowest pow attacks can now ignore shields, awesome.

>>47118199
Or more likely, they get nothing but a point change and that's it. People were just salty about Fist when it was one of the only lists Skorne could field to be competitive at a high level. The last thing they are going to do are give multi-wound infantry armor buffs, esoecially when you can take the superior Ferox now for an equivalent point cost.

>>47118249
If Aradus had been out when Hordes came out I'd still probably play Skorne. I really like the giant monstrous bugs.

>>47118283
Speaking of Ferox, the dragoon solo now gives them Dodge instead of veteran leader. PP is really piling on buffs to expensive models no one owns, and nerfs to the plastic kits everyone owns.

>>47118278

;_;

>>47118300
It's almost as if this is the same tactic GW uses to sell overstock.

>>47118300
>>47118370
Yeah. This kinda stuff is why I'm going to pick up the rulebook and then seriously consider if I still want to play this game or focus on Dropfleet Commander.

>>47118229
>>47118144
Well if you want to panic like a bunch of idiots that's fine, but it's incredibly stupid.

Please see >>47117960

>>47118370
Because god fucking forbid they make bad models more playable and tone down the auto-includes, right? What monsters.

>>47118300
>Waaah! Bad models got buffed!
>Really good stuff got toned down!

How is this bad? Are you really just that much of a cry baby?

>>47118490
Nice try, PPIDF.


No matter how hard you try to astroturf support for mkIII, any intellegent person will recognize you are invalidating purchases and contact the better business bureau.

>>47118490
They weren't "really good", they were simply on par with what everyone else got. Skorne was always Minions tier competitively until we started fielding gunbugs and croak raiders, then we got almost mid-tier. Skorne has always struggled, being barely pulled along by a few good models, and those are nerfed into the ground now. What benefit is there to making everything in a faction equally good by bringing down the power level of the best models, when those models were never enough to make the faction competitive?

>>47118032
Where did you read that?

>>47117415
>Can you point to me the other arm 15 heavy infantry?

Black Ogrun

>>47118623
Ogruns have tough now, and are higher def than cataphracts.

>>47117742

All teams have a different setup, take your Skorne for instance, this is your setup excluding character beasts
1/5 heavy
3/6 light

And this is Cryx, another close combat oriented team, but in Warmachine.
1/6 lights
4/6 heavy

As you can see, as you already mention, the Cryx completely dominate with all those ranged attacks.... not. You know why? Because Focus is such a bad stat compared with fury, and that was my main point behind my post!
In mk2 I really hope they fix all the un-usable RoF3+ Jacks, I really hope the free Focus fix things, I really hope they tone down the Beasts overall, because you know why? They where miles ahead of jacks, by the simple reason they had access to a superior stat, Fury.

>>47109957


It's 9 points but Rocinante is 10/18

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>>47118550
>invalidating purchases

>>47118653
RoF is now your initial attacks. An RoF 3 jack makes 3 ranged attacks without spending any extra focus.

That change right there vastly buffed the range game.

>>47118675
I'm sorry, did the bronzeback grow a gun at some point?

Our cannoneer is 10/18 too and the same cost in mk2 as rocinante, but doesn't have a pile of special rules to go with it.

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>>47118550
>Contact the BBB

Always funny

>>47118715


The question wasn't if the cannoneer was good, the question was if anyone used def10/19 heavies

Also kinda wold wardens, although they're pretty corner case

>>47118550

If you haven't noticed, a classical GW move was to do exactly what you described. This has happen, and is happening, time and time again in every new Dex GW puts out.

What Privateer Press is doing is toning down the obvious, and dragging up some of the need bees, nothing that wasn't expected has yet to hit us.
All in all, they have created the most "fair" and balanced pre-view of their game system yet. Had it been otherwise, you would have seen just as much "well, its obvious you go with this combination", on all the previously bad models. But thats not the case, everything is on an equal level now as it seems.

I'm surprised really, Id thought PP would throw it down the shitter, but they seem to have actually have put down work in this new ed. Play testing, and years of data recorded, and have you ever heard of something silly as getting the best of the best together just to try out the new battle boxes? Absurd!

>>47118551
Fist sucked, there's a reason you saw every Skorne player bring it to tournaments and not place.

Animantarax no longer a token-buying gun platform (in the actual sense, not the rules sense), we don't have to keep looking for new jokes, can go back to the old ones.

>>47118781
Then sure, I should've rephrased to 10 point 10/19 melee heavies.

>>47118687

I know right! Fucking brilliant, finally I can play with jacks I haven't even looked at before. I love PP for making this change, and I love how I can now finally throw shit like "Well, I told you, Fury was a superior stat!" in my friends face, knowing Privateer has my back on this!

>>47118818
Gains speed from rage tokens, still gains them from friendly attacks, can be healed as a warbeast.

>>47118839
Yeah, but its ranged game is back to pre-nerf levels and war engines are too fragile for melee so who gives a shit? It's garbage again.

>>47118781
>the question was if anyone used def10/19 heavies

Have you heard of the faction, Protectorate of Menoth?

>>47118862
pre-errata levels rather

>>47118823


Yeah wold wardens mostly then, although they do very different things to earn their keep

>>47118868


10 point melee 10/19 heavies

>>47118805
Honestly I wish gw was half the company pp is. Imagine how whfb would've been...

>>47118868
Can you point to me which menoth melee heavies are 10/19 and cost 10 points?

Reckoner has ashen veil for constant concealment and -2 to living models, and is 8 points

Templar has a shield

Crusader is dirt cheap

Avatar has a shield

Vanquisher is ranged and cheaper

Castigator is cheaper

Templar is close to that but does have an arc node, which Skorne has 0 of