http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=4
>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
>The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3110466/Game-Thrones-creator-defends-rape-scenes-Author-says-dishonest-boring-leave-sexual-violence.html
>'But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that.
How can one man be so based?
>>47066232
How can one OP be such a faggot?
>>47066232
I liked it before this TV show came out and the /tg/ consensus was that GRRM was just a pervy old man.
Take it to /tv/ because i am pretty sure given the timing of this thread you aren't reading the novels.
if i want to be reminded of the horrors of war, i'll go watch the news. let me enjoy my good vs evil escapism.
>>47066232
what is with the endless shitposting coming on /tg/ this week?
is it just me, or is it this week that it seems to be happening non-stop?
>>47066232
>But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question
Because it doesn't fucking matter to the story. The story says Aragorn was a good king, so you can assume that his decisions, tax laws and orc policies had the right intentions and resulted in the betterment of the lives of his people.
It's not that hard.
I'm pretty sure Tolkien put a lot of thought to all those things. He just wasn't writing that kind of story.
>>47066284
considering how much the tv show shits on the books I don't think /tv/ cares about grrm
>>47066282
> /tg/ consensus was that GRRM was just a pervy old man.
Because /tg/ is a bunch of manchildren who are so used to sexless forgotten realms shit that they get their panties in a bunch over things that the average mainstream fantasy reader doesn't even pause at.
People who read mainstream fiction or who's been reading fantasy since back when ASoIaF was pretty new are not squeamish about terrifying and icky events and scenes, but as soon as there's rape in a fantasy book some fucking nerd has to post a trigger warning about it on goodreads.
>Why is there sexual violence in a book, it must be because the author is a disgusting pervert who loves sexual violence, I prefer my books with just clean normal beheadings and other unproblematic content thankyouverymuch.
Nerds are so desperate to look normal and wholesome these days that they're lashing out at stuff normal people don't care about.
>Sex?! In fiction? NOT ON MY WATCH!
>Reading Gulag Archipelago and about real war situations. Manchuria etc.
>GRRM just seems like comic buffoonery and faffing about compared to it.
>Muh 1 woman gets raped el gritty fantasy tales.
>Detailed shitting scenes is more true to life!
Really?
Dude is just up his own asshole at this point. But I will enjoy the fade into obscurity as people take the show as the true plot and ignore his bad writing.
>>47066504
That's hardly sexual violence. I fuck my woman with more gusto.
>>47066366
You're just having a rough time m8
Ignore the shitposts and follow only the discussions that you enjoy.
>>47066504
No, man, he's pretty obsessed with that.
No one gave a fuck about a Rhaenrya's virginity, but there's an half page about that shit in the Big Book of Lore.
So, no, you don't need to see rapes after the big battle. It's more honest to see generally the people suffer than nothing and probably should be done, but there is no reason to think about that shit as basically About Half Of The Bad Things That Happen, because that's not true and quite frankly is a little edgy.
>>47066232
Well George, Tolkien was writing FANTASY. Not reality. If people wanted to read about social injustice, genocide, and tax policy - there are plenty of places to do that.
But yeah, great insight Mr. Martin.
Jesus christ, it's like he either a) never watched or read Lord of the Rings, or b) was too stupid to understand what was going on. Probably b.
>orc babies
>>47066519
you know how i know you're a fucking liar that hasnt read either GRRM or actual war history books?
you think they are supposed to be comparable
sweet attempt at looking cool on the internet with your enlightened opinion though fucking disgusting shit-eating faggot
>>47066627
>It's more honest to see generally the people suffer than nothing and probably should be done, but there is no reason to think about that shit as basically About Half Of The Bad Things That Happen
You're right, it was probably more, since you can only kill someone once.
>>47066232
>Stories shouldn't inspire. They should all be as realistic as possible because autism is the new normal and if a narrative isn't driven by statistics and facts it is not relevant
In the time it took you to read this post, 37 women were the victims of sexual violence in a war zone.
>>47066366
the advent of the nazimod's return caused the gates to be open to hordes of crossover shitposters that arn't even really good.
its almost like in berserk when the godhand created the eclipse and forced the world to suffer under fantasy creature rules, complete with genocide and the entire bit, the difference being is /tg/ is tempered to shit on things like this.
>>47066355
I totally agree, and I think both methods of storytelling offer different forms of escapism. I enjoy GRRM and Tolkien, both for their strengths. Trying to compare the situations in these books is like apples and oranges. Why not throw disc world in there too
>>47066653
You do realize that orcs did reproduce sexually, right?
http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2013/01/31/are-there-female-orcs-in-middle-earth/
>>47066700
You can't be that stupid to think that what happened after and before wars in the middle ages were just rapes.
>>47066675
But I have? Why are you so upset my little chum?
And they're directly comprable because fat man is writing about;
>Muh horrors of war.
But really misses the point.
>shit-eating faggot
Spoiler your GRRM fantasies please.
>>47066232
Tolkien
>Served in combat during WWi
>Saw many of his schoolmates die in the trenches along with an entire generation of European men
>Saw Europe again descend into horrific war
Martin
>Served in the Cola Wars
>Saw the loss of Crystal Pepsi
>???
>Mr. Martin, what was your favorite part of the Lord of the Rings and what do you admire most about his tales?
>Definitely the food descriptions. Things such as Farmer Maggot's mushrooms and Lembas really hit the top of the literary mountain for me. I feel Tolkien should have focused more on that. Maybe expanded into what fried lembas would taste like.
Does anyone have the sunset pasta?
>>47066796
No wonder he's a fat fuck
>>47066796
>>Mr. Martin, what was your favorite part of the Lord of the Rings and what do you admire most about his tales?
>>Definitely the food descriptions. Things such as Farmer Maggot's mushrooms and Lembas really hit the top of the literary mountain for me. I feel Tolkien should have focused more on that. Maybe expanded into what fried lembas would taste like.
did he actually say that?
>>47066788
Tolkien
>Scholar and Gentleman.
>Family man.
>Veteran.
>Fought at the Somme, one of the most brutal battles in recorded history.
GRRM
>Disgustingly corpulent.
>Cuckqueen wife.
>Never served, not even a reservist.
>Fought to reach his stunted erection while writing about death and rape.
It's easy to write about the horrors of war when you dream them up in a nacho induced stupor.
>>47066864
>>Cuckqueen wife.
ok, what?
>>47066421
As a Tolkien fan, no he didn't. Tolkien really only put lots of thought into the languages. Pretty much all of his other world-building doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
The Lord of the Rings is not realistic at all. But it's also not meant to be. it's meant to be high fantasy, chivalric romance. Arthurian stuff.
Sure, all valid points. Except they fucking aren't. Tolkien, with all his faults as a writer, was nonetheless very good at creating thought-out and consistent mythologies and had masterful control over the language. That's why his legacy is so big.
GRRM's legacy is a boring tv show only kept afloat by shock factor and normalfags whose most gruesome prior media exposure was the Lost. And yet it still manages to be watchable and vastly superior to its source material.
>>47066232
>But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army?
And I could list a billion side questions George Rape Rape Martin doesn't answer, like insurance rates. So? They're beside the fucking point of the story!
More charitably, if we interpret this about not being about particular side questions of insurance rates but about some more general point involving the supposed "endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes" whine, I will point out for the umpteenth time that TOLKIEN DID NOT WRITE THE CARICATURE EVERYONE KEEPS PAINTING HIM AS. Here's one of those supposed evil minions:
> Then suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.
> It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace
I don't know how much is poor memory and how much is confusing Tolkien copypasta writers with Tolkien himself, but it keeps happening and it's equally stupid every time that people accuse Tolkien of dimestore things he didn't do.
>>47066960
>Pretty much all of his other world-building doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
where?
>>47066960
Wasn't the setting mostly just a though experiment to see how the languages would grow?
>>47066355
I agree somewhat - it's usually not my thing but I don't mind it and there's definitely room for both kinds of story in fiction.
This is also why comparing GRRM to Tolkien is fucking retarded - they don't write the same kind of books. It'd be like comparing Dune to Thomas the Tank Engine. And now someone's going to.
>>47066960
This, saved me a post.
>>47066976
cont.
Or how about when the Riders of Rohan are looking for a particular path through the wilderness, and their negotiation has some dark implications:
At length Théoden turned to the Wild Man. ‘We will receive your offer,’ he said. ‘For though we leave a host of foes behind, what matter? If the Stone-city falls, then we shall have no returning. If it is saved, then the orc-host itself will be cut off. If you are faithful, Ghân-buri-Ghân, then we will give you rich reward, and you shall have the friendship of the Mark for ever.’
‘Dead men are not friends to living men, and give them no gifts,’ said the Wild Man. ‘But if you live after the Darkness, then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more. Ghân-buri-Ghân will not lead you into trap. He will go himself with father of Horse-men, and if he leads you wrong, you will kill him.’
> then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more.
> any more.
George Rape Rape Martin writes splatterporn and condemns Tolkien for writing idealized utopian war, but Tolkien (who, I remind you, served in the First World War - you know, the one that *didn't* involve Hitler) knows damn well that war is nasty and that there's no perfect side.
Tolkien just has more discretion than to spray blood all over the camera, and Rape Rape is an unsubtle moron who thinks this means there's no blood.
>>47067022
Choo choo motherfucker
>High fantasy book about good triumphing over evil written by a devout catholic
>WHERE'S THE RAPE WHAT DID ARAGORN THINK ABOUT TAXES WHY DIDN'T HE KILL BABY ORCS
>>47067041
Fuck, screwed up my arrows.
>At length Théoden turned to the Wild Man. ‘We will receive your offer,’ he said. ‘For though we leave a host of foes behind, what matter? If the Stone-city falls, then we shall have no returning. If it is saved, then the orc-host itself will be cut off. If you are faithful, Ghân-buri-Ghân, then we will give you rich reward, and you shall have the friendship of the Mark for ever.’
>‘Dead men are not friends to living men, and give them no gifts,’ said the Wild Man. ‘But if you live after the Darkness, then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more. Ghân-buri-Ghân will not lead you into trap. He will go himself with father of Horse-men, and if he leads you wrong, you will kill him.’
> then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more.
> any more.
>>47067041
and during the siege of minas tirith the theme of fear and its effect on the human mind was thoroughly explored as well which again is a dark subject of war and one which Tolkien would have personal experience with.
>>47066976
>but it keeps happening and it's equally stupid every time that people accuse Tolkien of dimestore things he didn't do.
This happens to pretty much everyone who becomes famous enough. William Shatner's actual voice on Star Trek is nothing like the parody people make of him; it's just a parody of a parody stand-up comedians initially made back in the day and then everyone copied the shit out of it til it mutated to fifteen-second dramatic pauses for each syllable. In the same vein, people have copied Tolkien so much now that people can't separate the shitty copies and parodies from the actual Lord of the Rings story.
Same thing happened to Conan back in the day. How many people rip off Conan and ONLY do the dumb, loincloth-wearing brute who only knows how to swing a sword and pick up chicks?
>>47067041
>the First World War - you know, the one that *didn't* involve Hitler
Hitler was a machine-gunner in the Austro-Hungarian army in WWI, Anon. Technically, he was pretty fucking involved in the war, although manning a machine gun kind of pales in comparison to orchestrating the greatest loss of human life in history.
>>47067124
>How many people rip off Conan and ONLY do the dumb, loincloth-wearing brute who only knows how to swing a sword and pick up chicks?
Which is really weird because even the movie with Arnold goes off about how educated he is "Finest Tutors in the land" and all that.
>>47066383
>>47066646
This. Tolkien was building a mythology. He didn't question Aragorn's tax policies because it's in no way relevant to the mythos.
Hell, I don't even really like Tolkien and I think this criticism is ridiculous.
But on a different note...
>The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes.
Does anybody wonder what the next generation of fantasy writers will be like? It seems like a lot of amateur, up-and-coming fantasy writers I've interacted with love GoT (some of them have even read the books) so I wonder if the "Martin Model" will usher in an era of morally ambiguous political dealings with sparse fantastical elements, inspired more by history than mythology.
>>47067178
'greatest loss of human life in history' is putting the german genocide of jews, romani, gays and so on a bit high on the list. The 1918 Influenza alone killed 50-100 million people.
Not that the Holocaust wasn't awful but lets not inflate numbers here.
>>47066232
>as someone who's never seen war let me tell you what its like and call everyone who fights to secure peace evil because think of the baby orcs
>Tolkien who fought in one and lived through two world wars doesnt know shit about war!
hes actually just posting by constantly comparing himself to Tolkien. its literal real life shit posts meant to get attention by making outrageous statements
>>47067189
>sparse fantastical elements,
>inspired more by history
Is this what GRRM fans actually believe?
>Fucking dragons and dire wolves.
>magic and shit everywhere
>muh wall
>literally everything in the setting
Holy fuck.
>>47067189
They'll probably only copy GoT at face value just like the previous writers did with Tolkien, so it's just gonna be backstabbing/nobles being cunts for literally no reason, blood and rape with no actual subtlety or political maneuvering while claiming to be 'realistic'.
>>47067247
it killed THOSE people though
thegays
>>47067189
And rape. Don't forget rape. GRRM is dissing Tolkien as not merely a poor writer but a dishonest one for not showing lots of rape, so I'm pretty sure the amateur fanboy imitations of GRRM are going to be barely this side of rape porn.
>>47066960
lotr was incredibly realistic in having actual reasons for events other than plot. youre so fucking stupid and brainless I want to strike you
grrrrm is full of cartoon mustache twirling villains and PLOT
>>47067297
considering most of the battles were between orcs and goblins on one side and humans dwarves and elves on the other I doubt there was any incentive to do so
My oh my, This was a surprisingly effective shit post! Ya'll are sinkin yer teeth into like it owes you money, and it'll take ya to money and candy land if you don't let go.
>>47067269
You do realise that dire wolves were actual animals?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dire_wolf
>>47066232
Thing is, GRRM is absolutely right. But Tolkien saw not one but two bitter and vicious wars in his lifetime, and both were pretty black and white, at least at the time. Both have their merits, and I won't be driven to dislike either approach.
>>47067297
while forgetting that within the narrative of LOTR there would have been very little opportunity for rape
The only characters that spent any significant time under control of orcs were Pippin, Merin and Frodo and in all situations they were WAY to valuable for the orcs to even try something stupid.
The narrative doesn't reach any point where the enemy armies are pillaging instead of fighting and there is absolutely no way the commanders of the various orcish armies would let them engage in such base actions while they should be fighting
>>47067269
>Fucking dragons and dire wolves
A sign of magic rising again but has little impact on the majority of the plot so far, and mascots
>magic and shit is everywhere
Not yet, and the magic has little impact on most of the plot so far
>muh wall
Hadrian's Wall
>literally everything in the setting
Westeros is basically inflated dark age british isles with continental Europe grafted in
He's right if you're talking from a historical perspective. However, not all fiction set in a pre modern society is necessarily historical. Realism does not universally make a story good or bad, that is the task of the quality of the writing and plot. While everything he says rings true for something intending to be realistic and historical, it has no bearing on something well within the realm of the fantastical. A book that does not want to concern itself with the geopolitical dealings of a fictional world, but simply wishes to chronicle the adventures of larger than life people should stick with the dark lord and his hordes of minions, as sexual assault, poverty and general human douchebaggery would all detract from the story and its intended goal.
>>47067351
There probably was for the Orcs considering they're cruel and bestial creatures, but it's not important to the plot so it wasn't included.
That's one of my biggest criticisms with GRRM - his take on how people work is kinda shocking at first, but once you get about a third into the story it becomes entirely predictable that the bad guys are going to do the absolute most dickish thing they can do at that time, simply because they fucking can, or that the situation is going to turn for the absolute worst, simply because it always does. He tries to subvert expectations so much that they actually become the new expectations.
>>47066232
>Tolkien only used the evil in black image! and shiny heros!
>second biggest villian is literally called the white and is dressed head to toe in white
>aragon is introduced as a creepy woodsman rapist serial killer
>everywhere gandalf goes people hate and dont trust him
>boromir was seduced by the ring
>frodo was seduced by the ring
>good literally failed to defeat evil. evil was the cause of saurons defeat
Wasn't the original idea of Lord of the Rings that it's supposed to be a subjective account of the objective reality of Middle Earth?
Does that make sense? It was supposed to be like someone was recounting the story but not as a "this is totally what happened".
That's why I loved the Last Ringbearer. It took that idea and ran with it.
I think this shit may be too meta for GRRM.
>>47066702
And boy is my dick sore!
>>47066355
>let me enjoy my good vs evil escapism.
Nobody is putting a gun to your head, though.
>>47067464
It's more like it's a retelling of tale from ages ago.
Like the thing with Balrogs and wings, maybe in some tales they have them, and in some it doesn't, so the story itself is a bit vague because maybe the storyteller isn't actually sure.
I thought the Last Ringbearer was a bit too overbearing with it, but I can understand the idea.
>>47067463
Alright...this is something I don't get, if Martin is pleased as punch that he doesn't have a "good vs evil" story...how come he has the White Walkers, who pretty much exist to be evil?
>>47067547
>Alright...this is something I don't get, if Martin is pleased as punch that he doesn't have a "good vs evil" story...how come he has the White Walkers, who pretty much exist to be evil?
they are the good guys
>>47067189
We're already in the Martin generation. Notice how fantasy these days is all hamfisted politices, everyone is a psychopath, fucking everyone wheres heavy cloaks with the thick fur trimming, and everything has that grayish blue washed out look with tons rape thrown in.
>>47067405
And in at least one case where there was an opportunity for rape, the orcs probably did take it: Celebrian (Elrond's wife) was captured by orcs for a while, and while Tolkien doesn't come right out and say exactly what happened to her, he does say that Celebrian's sons are really pissed about something and spend as much time as possible going to orclands killing orcs, "for they never forgot the torment their mother had suffered". Hmmm, I wonder what that might be.
Tolkien can drop a hint rather than infodump exposition on us, but GRRM can't fucking take a hint. GRRM needs the rape to go on for at least half a page and at least five times a book or else he starts complaining "WHERE'S THE RAPE? THIS BOOK NEEDS MORE RAPE! WITHOUT RAPE, HOW WILL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT BAD THINGS HAPPEN? LIKE RAPE!"
>>47066232
>By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Uninformed peasant
He killed all the orcs and orcs are all but a myth a few centuries later, as told in the continuation of lord of the rings he was writing as he died
>>47067269
I was referring to the fact that the fantastical elements have little direct impact on the plot save for setting things up. Or writers will have one or two important fantasy elements and keep everything else "realistic".
This guy explains what I meant better.
>>47067273
Also, I may not be a huge LotR fans but I'm definitely not a Martin fan.
>>47066232
>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper.
I seriously hope he doesn't think this was Tolkien's actual opinion on the matter. Lord of the Rings is meant to be thematically mythic. It's not his fault "generations of fantasy writers" misread that.
It's not an accurate portrayal of war because it didn't intend to be, and I would trust Tolkien, himself a veteran of one of the most brutal wars in human history, to give an accurate portrayal of war if he so desired than a man who got objector status to avoid the Vietnam draft.
>>47066504
>sexless forgotten realms
You must be reading a different Forgotten Realms than I am. Forgotten Realms has LOADS of sex.
>>47067536
GRRM is. He's standing right here.
>>47067575
didn't she also essentially give up on the world after her treatment at the hands of the orcs?
does sound like they did something incredibly traumatic to her to the point it doesn't really matter if it was rape or something even worse than that
>>47067284
I can't see spoilers, the Russians? Yes, more Russians died from their own country killing them than all the victims of the holocaust.
Was Hitler to blame for Russia?
>>47067022
The fatishah controller oppressing the tanksraad of noble engines with his army of people who don't need to stay on the tracks and both of their powers being held in check by the troublesome trucks, who ultimately depend on both for their existence and power and who plot to unseat tall poppies with troublesomeness?
It's a little tortuous but I can dig it
>>47067651
>I can't see spoilers, the Russians? Yes, more Russians died from their own country killing them than all the victims of the holocaust.
>Was Hitler to blame for Russia?
I wrote the gays, because oppressing homosexuals is the most evil thing hitler could do.
also it is a 4 letter word like the jews
>>47067189
We're totally already in that right now.
>>47067323
>lotr was incredibly realistic in having actual reasons for events other than plot
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Sorry, I'm not even the anon you're replying too, that was just really funny.
Tell that to Eagles, the River, Golum eating the ring, Smaug just happening to be the last dragon, Bard, ghost army, etc.
Almost every single thing in the book is just a lame random event needed because he wrote himself into a corner.
It wasn't about realism, or at least it forgot to use any of it, it was about fantasy and language.
>>47067651
I'm a way yes he let the Soviet Union take over a good 1/3 of Europe by not focusing on stopping communism which was more of a problem then Jewish bankers
>>47067709
>Tell that to Eagles
Sauron protected his air-space with his magical powers, so they could only sweep in as he was dead
>>47066232
You know why I have a problem with GRRM?
He has all these things in his books. Characters get killed off, rape happens, children get thrown off of buildings and good men die and bad men prosper.
But none of it really matters. There's just enough time for a bit of shock value, and then he rushes things along before despair can set in, or you can question why you should even feel bad about what's happening to this character in the first place.
>>47067747
buh buh buh becuuuz HIIIIIISTOWY
BAD STUFF HAPPENED EVERY DAY IN MEDIEVAL TIMES
WOWW!!!
>>47067709
>Tell that to Eagles, the River, Golum eating the ring, Smaug just happening to be the last dragon, Bard, ghost army, etc.
>eagles
Literally the second closest thing to divine aid. They are heralds of manwe
>Gollum eating the ring.
yes, the entire quest nearly failed because the ring was too strong. Gollum tried to make a grab for it and failed because he was standing on a ledge
>bard
What about him?
>ghost army
Who don't become a meme like they did in the movie
>>47067747
There's also just so much of it that you just get desensitized to it and expect the worst possible thing to happen in every situation for it.
>>47066232
>MUH REALISM
Fuck off Martin you fat fuck.
>>47067057
>low fantasy book with cute fuzzy animals saving the day with friendship against bullying, mean villains
>WHERE'S THE RAPE WHAT DID ABBOT MORTIMER THINK ABOUT TAXES WHY DIDN'T HE KILL BABY STOATS
>>47067811
I kind of imagine this would be GRRM reading watership down.
>"Well the murder is good and it's fairly realistic in a sense that animals do kill each oth-HOLD UP WHERE'S THE RAPE?! THESE ARE RABBITS DON'T PEOPLE KNOW RABBITS FUCK ALL THE TIME? WHAT DO RABBITS THINK ABOUT THE ECONOMIC POSITION OF ENGLAND AND THE IMPACT OF THATCHERISM?!
>>47067747
Yeah. When Boromir died it felt significant because things had been relatively light-hearted until then.
With ASoIaF being a death march it almost doesn't matter anymore. Everyone knows the characters are in for a bad time and will either die or be mutilated/raped, so they don't form attachments. Tonally, it's not shocking; it's expected.
>>47067811
kek, Redwall needed more "realism" too. I just bought Mouse Guard today, I hope my players enjoy navigating mouse tax policies or tracking down mouse rapists.
>>47067811
I miss Redwall. I used to read that shit like potato chips when I was a kid.
I actually teared up a little a couple years ago when I found out Jacques died.
>>47067873
>WHAT DO RABBITS THINK ABOUT THE ECONOMIC POSITION OF ENGLAND AND THE IMPACT OF THATCHERISM?!
> THE IMPACT OF THATCHERISM?!
That you need more of it, of course
>>47066280
This should've tipped you off.
>>47067765
But there really is a problem with just 'taking stuff from history,' whether or not rape and other horrible things were more common than we thought it was: how do you think history books phrase and look at this stuff? They give some numbers, perhaps dare to make some argument with the information, and then quietly move things along to the next bit of history.
History is many things, but unless you actually can look at the emotions, it's not a great story. So much of it, especially before a certain period where no one kept diaries, is emotionally detached. You don't get stuff like Puyi, the last Manchu Emperor, talking to his wife-to-be on the phone.
>"I hear you're a more enlightened woman, I hope you do not treat me like everybody else. Maybe you've started feeling the distress. I am very lonely, no friends. Treat me like a friend. Can you promise me? - Wanrong repeat, "Yes, I promise." she tries to restrain the voice shaking. "This is good," Puyi happies and then farewell Wanrong, "Go to rest and good afternoon."
Despite the engrish, there's real emotional impact there that you wouldn't get from something a few centuries older.
>>47067774
>It's not plot devices driving the worlds events, it's divine aid.
...
>>47067875
Redwall had a really good tone. It was light and fun but when shit got real and characters died it made a huge impact on the story.
>>47067885
I always thought it was really cool how much the Mouse Guard guy respected Redwall.
>>47067892
Always and forever.
>>47067917
>>It's not plot devices driving the worlds events, it's divine aid.
yes and?
Martin literally bases all his shit upon random coincidences
In LOTR, the gods tip the balance ever so slightly in the protagonist's favors when everything is at a knife's edge.
>>47067912
Puyi did not deserve the shit he got into.
>>47067917
look here>>47067730
>>47067955
Redwall knew how to keep things fairly light-hearted, but also took the time to work through difficult feelings and emotions. The villains were usually pretty nice too - maybe a little simple, being more cruel bullies with power, but that just made them easier to dislike. I wish I could decipher what moles were supposed to sound like.
>>47066232
Why do people like this fat fuck? Why does he have beef with a writer that wanted to create his own world and try to convert his bro to Catholicism and end up having his friend join the CoE?
>>47068003
Just say the mole speak out loud, it helps.
Also, Mattimeo was pretty dark.
>>47066232
>Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Probably, because by Tolkien's own admission all the orcs are always Evil. It's one of the things he regretted late in life.
>>47066366
>this week
What the hell are you talking about? It's been going on for a while.
>>47066232
>Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy
Yes, because it's written as a medieval text.
>But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs?
None of those things are relevant to the story nor are they particularly interesting on their own.
>>47066729
>You can't be that stupid to think that what happened after and before wars in the middle ages were just rapes
Yeah, there was something even worse going on, behind the scenes.Plays.
Martin also said this:
“The best fantasy is written in the language of dreams. It is alive as dreams are alive, more real than real ... for a moment at least ... that long magic moment before we wake.
Fantasy is silver and scarlet, indigo and azure, obsidian veined with gold and lapis lazuli. Reality is plywood and plastic, done up in mud brown and olive drab. Fantasy tastes of habaneros and honey, cinnamon and cloves, rare red meat and wines as sweet as summer. Reality is beans and tofu, and ashes at the end. Reality is the strip malls of Burbank, the smokestacks of Cleveland, a parking garage in Newark. Fantasy is the towers of Minas Tirith, the ancient stones of Gormenghast, the halls of Camelot. Fantasy flies on the wings of Icarus, reality on Southwest Airlines. Why do our dreams become so much smaller when they finally come true?
We read fantasy to find the colors again, I think. To taste strong spices and hear the songs the sirens sang. There is something old and true in fantasy that speaks to something deep within us, to the child who dreamt that one day he would hunt the forests of the night, and feast beneath the hollow hills, and find a love to last forever somewhere south of Oz and north of Shangri-La.
They can keep their heaven. When I die, I'd sooner go to middle Earth"
So he's either a hypocrite or a liar
>>47068003
West Country accent.
>>47068122
>So he's either a hypocrite or a liar
I think he's talking bullshit in the OP but his statements don't contradict each other so no
>>47068122
To me Westeros is pretty strong-colored, while tragic.
>>47067402
WWI wasn't really that black and white. Although at the time all the official channels would have been trying to make it seem that way.
>>47066960
>high fantasy
It was intended to be a medieval epic, like Beowulf or the Eddas.
>chivalric romance. Arthurian stuff
It was most certainly not because those were French in origin and Tolkien despised them.
How can one man miss Tolkien's point so completely? It's supposed to be a balck-and-white morality, mythic story.
This whole thread and argument can be boiled down to
>Americans
t. american
>>47068237
Because he's a hack.
>>47066504
Nah, it's the fetishes he keeps inserting. ADwD had a vomiting masturbation scene.
>>47068237
>black and white
>Noldor
Really now?
>>47066232
>But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that.
Here's my attempt at a non-shitposting response to this:
By the same token, I could say that if you're going to write about bloodlines and inheritances and thrones, and you just want to include all the backstabbing and violence and feuds and things like that and you don't portray reproductive sex, then there's something fundamentally dishonest about that.
Martin, where do you children come from in your world? Is it rape more often than married couples? Because you sure depict rape a hell of a lot more often than married couples having sex.
You probably have some defense for why it's not really relevant to your stories to write a hundred scenes of married couples having reproductive sex. Congratulations; now use this as the template for talking about why Tolkien doesn't feel the need to show rape after rape after rape. It happens, but it's not driving the plot, so it doesn't get chronicled in lurid detail.
>>47067959
Who cares about Martin?
Oh, are you saying that it's okay to lie about Tolkien's work because it helps you attack Martin?
The entire world working in the protagonists favor, and the whole world only having events happen for him, is just contrived plot device after plot device. It's called Deus Ex Machina for a reason that is wholy unironic..
We get it, internet defense force, you can have your say.
>>47067912
Except there are lots of instances of primary sources going back to Roman times, take the literal shitposts from Pompeii. People wrote letters, speeches were written down, eye-witnesses recall events, hell there's even very specific instances of the minutes being recorded at certain meetings so you can hear even common soldiers crying out random shit. There are many instances of talented historians telling a damn good story from the primary sources, I'd suggest looking at John Julius Norwich or Thomas Cahill if you want some history with flavor.
>>47066232
There's more than one way to build a world. There's more than one way to have a fantasy setting.
Is the fact that Tolkien did a bunch of linguistics shit cool? Yes. Is the average kid reading The Hobbit going to appreciate it? Not so much.
>>47067189
As a writer, the only cue I'm taking from GRRM is to write faster.
>>47068003
As someone who lives in Cornwall, I know exactly what moles are meant to sound like.
I've been in eight of these threads today. I'm tired.
>>47068307
Morality is pretty black and white in Tolkien's stories, but his characters aren't.
>>47067458
>it becomes entirely predictable
Just like, overall, really. You start seeing patterns with the narrative that going in to the 5th book nothing really shocked me, except how incomplete I felt at the end. None of the cliffhangers have any impact when you realize that, with one notable exception, no character actually dies in their own point-of-view chapter. They'll appear later on in some fashion, alive and (probably not) well. It is only when a different character witnesses it does this happen. Ned Stark, for example, meets his end in an Arya chapter, with his daughter witnessing his beheading. She then goes to conclude the chapter with a knife driving at her face. Oh no! But then you get to the next book (cheeky fat fuck) and oh, she's fine! Silly ol' Yoren was just giving her a sloppy haircut to hide her identity.
And it keeps happening! Unless they appear in the Prologue or Epilogue of a book, no character (exceptCatelyn) eats it in their own POV chapter. Seeing this pattern emerge just leads to looking for more and the whole thing starts falling apart and I'm just a little more jaded.
>>47068414
I can't agree. The Noldor weren't "wrong" in an absolute sense.
>>47067178
Stalin was responsible for the deaths of more people. And that's not counting the War.
>>47066232
>All these triggered morons shitting up this thread
All GRRM is saying is he likes to play with the kinds of questions Tolkien didn't want to ask. You guys are taking this way too fucking seriously.
>>47066232
I dunno, those are questions that are legitimate to ask if you're worldbuilding. but once I'm done with that and I got the framework for my story, there's things I'm gonna leave out because they bore readers or just come across as edgy, or most importantly if they don't fit the mood of the scene. if the pirate raid scene is supposed to show how epic and badass the viewpoint characters are when they board a ship, why would I show them torturing and raping their victims? likewise, if I want to show what horrible people they are, I wouldn't give them bro-tier bantz either. Tolkien knew what he wanted his writing to achieve and GRRM probably also does (because I don't believe he's ~that~ tone-deaf), but he thinks his way is the "correct" way. which is why he's a hack.
/blog
>>47068452
Nope.
>>47068360
Leave it to this self righteous faggot to tell a war vetern how to portray war in fiction.
Also, tolkein's second most famous workwas literally about a whole bunch of assholes coming together to fight over a horde of treasure
>>47068501
Diddn't mean to reply, just needed a window
>>47068525
You can use the [Post a Reply] button to get a blank one, just fyi.
>>47068338
JJ Norwich is a hack who believes the whole "Byzantium was full of whores, gloryhogs and pansies" spiel other hacks before him got from one butthurt priest who got BTFOed by the Orthodox Church. He literally ain't shit.
>>47066232
Even as a child, I knew that Aragorn absolutely - and one hundred percent - wiped out the orcs wherever he could find them.
Why wouldn't he?
>>47068547
I know, was just on mobile and didn't feel like scrolling
>>47067811
I just wished he'd have a nice reptile once in a while. Or stoat/weasel/rat/etcetera.
>>47067709
>>47067730
>>47067774
Guys, the eagles were assholes. The eagles were always assholes. They never did ANYTHING that was dangerous to them. Grab some Dwarves out of danger with some Goblins? Sure. Take them further? Okay. Take them within range of the mountain with the dragon in it? Fuck yourself.
That's why they only show up at the end of the Battle of Five Armies, that's why don't help take the ring in to Mordor but come by when everything is falling apart to grab the two gay little Hobbits. Eagles are self-serving assholes.
>>47066232
> But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy?
Has tax policy ever been discussed in ASoIaF?
>>47068464
Didn't Byzantium support Muslims during the Third crusade?
>>47067875
When has Mouse Guard ever had rape in it?
>>47066864
It does make sense.
Once you've seen the true horror of war you're probably reluctant enough to make an entertainment of it.
If you did, then it being a fantasy version with good kings and the like matches up.
Not a judgement on either style, nor a judgement on what you like more of the two.
(I like both, just not when mixed)
just agreeing that tolkiens perceived simplicity in this aspect could well have sprung from having lived the complex truths of a real war.
>>47068625
They don't take the ring to mordor because the wraiths would fucking murder them
>>47068625
Galadriel was an asshole too, sure she could have stopped Sauron, or done all kinds of amazing things, but she saved most of her time for helping Elrond summon water wards and brushing her hair.
If she had done anything else, it wouldn't have been -protagonist- doing the work.
Also, the eagle ass-hole bit is great stand-up comedy, I loved that one.
>>47068635
Actually, yes. But Robert didn't give a fuck.
>>47067747
yeah, pretty much this. I don't think he can tell a story.
>>47067765
but medieval times was also when people got drunk on the reg because their water was in no way drinkable, farts were the height of comedic genius, and lords had a professional funnyman to roast their fiefs and dance for them. people wore tights with huge codpieces and bells on their toes for fuck's sake. you can't just take the grim bits from history and pretend the lighthearted stuff wasn't real.
>>47068682
Sounds about right.
>>47068452
Stalin was a tyrant ruling a vast empire through fear, and Communists were worse than Nazis when it comes to ignoring scientific facts because the party line sounds better. He's no worse than Mao when it comes to percentage of innocent citizens lost to corruption and incompetence, and he's much better than, say, the Khmer Rouge when it comes to atrocities committed for ideological reasons. But that's what it was, morons and lunatics in charge of a huge nation. Hitler's genocides were a premeditated, planned and industrialized murder of entire populations that was happening even in the last year of the war, when fuel and men could be put to better use at the frontlines. So yeah, Stalin topped the scoreboard. But Hitler ended an age.
>>47066504
No, I'm pretty sure it's because GRRM is a pervy of old man. Have you read the fucking books? Half of the book's volume is taken up by describing food in autistic detail, another half is needlessly detailed sex scenes and women shitting themselves, and the last half is characters dying.
>>47067178
>the greatest loss of human life in history.
The Communist Holodomr?
We're not counting Chinese as people, right?
>>47068655
I'm not super familiar with the franchise so I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Does it actually include tax policies and rape? I was told this was for kids, not fans of Attack of the Clones.
I was making a joke about adding taxes and rape to make Mouse Guard "more realistic" as per GRRM's standards. It's not realistic without taxes and rape!
>>47068637
Crusaders were taking Roman lands, seems only logical that in a situation like that you'd team up with your enemy's enemy.
>>47068722
People only bring up other genocides when it's about muh 6 million. I wonder why.
>>47068695
How dare you, people in medieval times literally lived in poo and didn't know what colour was!
Also the only sex was rape.
>>47067575
The orcs couldn't have raped her, Tolkien's elves are such delicate snowflakes (aside from being towering Norse warrior-poets), that any attempt to rape an elf would result in instant elf death from sadness before you even got your dick inside.
Then again, there was the idea that the orcs were originally made from tortured elves, so maybe they were just going with more traditional tortures and trying to corrupt her.
>>47068743
>Crusaders were taking Roman lands
And then protecting the people who want to go see the Holy Land. Why do people like Orthodox again?
>>47068735
Taxes totally come up in Mouse Guard, but only veeery briefly. Honestly it would make more sense that there are so many defectors if the Guard actually took money from anyone else.
>>47068761
>there was the idea that the orcs were originally made from tortured elves
Tolkien changed his mind on that point and never decided on what the Orcs actually were.
>>47068735
Economics are actually a concern in mouseguard.
Like when they release all their bees at one point the apiary mouse laments the loss and hopes they'll have enough honey for winter.
I know its the hip and cool thing to hate GRRM ever since his books/TV show got really popular, but this is a bit much.
The Tolkien and GRRM are two entirely different kinds of fiction. Tolkien was writing essentially a British mythology. The kind of Arthurian legends that are still enjoyed today. People coming after him took many of the trappings and surface features of his work and so now when people think Tolkien it comes with all the baggage of people copying him, as well as his own work.
GRRM is working from an entirely different direction. He's writing a history of a fantasy location. Complete with the human foibles and problems that come with it. Is it more "realistic" than Tolkien? Not really. It asks different questions and focuses on different areas. Its a different creature from Tolkien and shouldn't be directly compared.
Personally I find black and white morality typically quite boring. That doesn't mean I don't see the merit in it. I prefer grey morality, because I like heroes with flaws and villains with redeeming features. It annoys me that /tg/ has such a hipster streak that there is this huge pushback against grey morality and an urge to return to simple black and white protagonists and villains right now.
>>47068735
It has implied tax policies, but I don't think it has ever had anything remotely close to sexual assault. There's like, four couples in the series and they've all been pretty in love. It also comes out at a snail's pace. Either way, the real problem here is my inability to determine what is and is not a joke anymore.
Well, he's honestly right. The Hobbit was written as a fairy tale and LotR was written as a mythological story of triumph over mustache-twirling evil that previously only existed in... myth and fairy tales. It's a classic, sure, but every fantasy writer ever since then has copied his formula with about the same level of cognizance of an island native cargo cult's understanding of what aerodynamics is.
>>47068743
> muh 6 million.
It always annoys me that people seem to ignore the other 5 million blacks, disabled, Roma, homosexuals etc. who also died during the holocaust.
Just because Jews were the largest group doesn't mean the rest don't count - it should be muh 11 million.
>>47068755
does "being oppressed by your feudal lord" count as sex? is being sexually bullied by tax collectors even possible?
>>47068762
the Holy Land ill needs foreign intruders such as thee, Catholic scum. your pontiff sits atop a throne of lies, your teachings slander the sacred name of God and what you call your faithful are filthy, unwashed heathens who yet cling to their old gods but dress them up as Saints to obscure their heresy. begone.nice job moving the goalposts too. "going to the holy land" isn't a human right.
>>47068762
Muh inheritors of Rome?
>>47068338
>there's even very specific instances of the minutes being recorded at certain meetings so you can hear even common soldiers crying out random shit
Do you have a source to that? I would absolutely love to read that.
>>47068762
Maybe the Byzantines didn't like being plundered and conquered by some thankless fucks doing the dirty work for the Pope and Italian merchants.
>>47068822
>muh every author copied Tolkien fallacy
Tell us about how DnD is inspired "mainly" by Tolkien too.
>>47068823
That is totally not what I meant at all, but I agree.
>>47068832
>>47068838
VADE RETRO INFIDEL
DEUS VULT
>>47068823
something like 2 million poles
but shhh, it Wasn't Genocide(TM)
>>47068743
Mate. The crusades where directed at retaking previously Christian kingdoms recently overtaken by neighboring non-Christian aggressors, as well as protecting threatened lands. It Han nothing to do with territorial disputes that by the time of the first crusade, would be laughable to attempt to enforce as Bazyntium hadn't maintained fuckall in those areas or pressed claims for generations.
>>47068850
I know, I was just making the point.
>>47068832
>going to the holy land
>isn't a human right
What are you, a pagan?
>>47068552
What are you even talking about? You can just admit you've never read anything he wrote. He gave a damn good summary Byzantine history and outright said his goal was to change the old view that Byzantium was nothing but pansies and whores. I'm not sure why you want to reduce three of his books to a single experience Luiprand had.
>>47068815
It's to bad GRRM is kinda bad at writing grey and usually just falls into various degrees of piss and stupidity in that case.
>>47068872
I read the whole god damn thing. I was tested on that shit. It was not a good time. How about you eat a whole dick?
>>47068832
>no saints in Orthodoxy
Are you blind, heretic? The holy land is a natural right for all men to visit.
>>47068896
>piss and piss morality
>>47068815
LoTR ultimately isn't simply a battle between "good and evil", but a commentary on the relationship between desire for control and tendency towards evil acts, and the ways in which "the end justifies the means" can twist men against their original intentions.
>>47068815
>I prefer grey morality, because I like heroes with flaws and villains with redeeming features
Black and white morality does not mean that the heroes are completely good or that the villains are completely evil. LotR is a good example of this.
>>47068922
I always thought it was a strange coincidence that that wizard looks a bit like GRRM.
>>47068227
Tolkien didn't despise them you idiot, he wrote his own fucking Arthurian poem but never finished it which Christopher actually considers the biggest waste of all his works. He considered it powerful but not inherently endemic to England.
>>47068905
Orthodox Saints are true holy men. Catholic Saints are insults to the very concept of Sainthood. Look at Saint Leopold for example. All he did was found a monastery and rule a backwater duchy, and yet you call him a Saint. How pathetic.
>>47068926
That is attributing a lot of depth that the author did not intentionally add.
It's way cooler when you imagine it that way, though.
>>47068183
For a man on the ground, bombarded by propaganda, it would have seemed pretty black and white.
>>47066366
It's not just /tg/, shitposting is way up on multiple boards. Feels like a stealth raid.
>>47068846
What other massively popular and influential fantasy work that was instrumental in bringing fantasy into the mainstream could you possibly pull as a major influence on your D&D setting of choice? Narnia, literally written by Tolkien's contemporary and friend, whose book was even MORE obviously based on (christian) mythology?
>>47068938
Hell, the climatic moment of LoTR is literally the protagonist having a complete failure of character
>>47068896
I admit he's got his classic evil badguys in black cloaks like the Boltons, but what about characters like Jaime? Thats a good character who started evil and is now somewhere trending toward good. Or Varus, the spymaster who doesn't give a shit about anything but the realm continuing on, no matter who rules it.
I'm not saying he's a master of writing, but I think he does a good job of establishing character motivations and having them stick with them, no matter the consequences. I get the feeling that its how he writes as well. He gives the sense things are wandering from event to event because he's just writing "okay this happened, how does X react? Okay how does Y react to what X does?" more than having a fully coherent plot planned out from the beginning.
>>47068975
It would've probably seemed like "HOLY SHIT EVERYTHING'S EXPLODING EVERYONE WANTS TO KILL ME FUCCC" at times and "wew lads they sure wanna kill us eh?" at others.
>>47068832
>is being sexually bullied by tax collectors even possible?
Of course!
>You don't have the money to pay your tax bill, eh? Maybe you can pay in a different way...
>>47068966
Because of his actions, not of his jist, his gusto, it's because he is in heaven and did some miracles.
>ywn sack Constantinople and destroy the people that fucked with Rome
>>47068967
But it's literally true. Tolkein was a classicist, his moral ideal was passivity and observation at the expense of control.
>>47068966
To be fair, back in the day, you needed a saint relic for your town to be a popular tourist destination. Entire economies (and those hugeass cathedrals, that's how they got the money in the first place) were built around pilgrims coming to see reliquaries, so the catholic church was VERY keen on canonizing whoever. On the other hand, in Orthodoxy before the Great Painting Shitstorm, all you really needed to do was have a nice painting of a saint, no gold encased fingerbone boxes necessary.
>>47068986
Howard.
>>47069022
He did nothing but bribe your false patriarch and you know it.
![16c8dddad7[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/L9vYPES.jpg "16c8dddad7[1].jpg")
>>47066232
>Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Uh, yeah? Nits make lice.
>>47068967
Tolkien absolutely considered the story to be about power and it corrupts those who want it much more than a story about good vs evil.
>Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' – and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs. But in any case this is a tale about a war, and if war is allowed (at least as a topic and a setting) it is not much good complaining that all the people on one side are against those on the other. Not that I have made even this issue quite so simple: there are Saruman, and Denethor, and Boromir; and there are treacheries and strife even among the Orcs.
>>47068815
>It annoys me that /tg/ has such a hipster streak that there is this huge pushback against grey morality and an urge to return to simple black and white protagonists and villains right now.
boo hoo you little relativist shitstain, god fuckin forbid we actually stopped glorifying the same savagery that's destroying our own world and start giving due praise once more to the actual virtues of our species
>>47069045
Matthew 16:18 would like to have a word with you.
>Peter dies in Rome
>Pope is now the office for acting like Peter and trying to go so far with spreading the word of Christ
Go get sacked.
>>47068967
>author did not intentionally add
What? That's all Lord of the Rings is about.
That's the whole Ring thing. Surely World Building is a great attractive and most people meet and like because of it. But the core of the story has nothing to do with.
The fact Tolkien was more writing a myth 50% inspired by various sagas and 50% by christian theology didn't cross his mind ?
>>47068938
Just reading LotR you don't really get those moments though. Even >>47068998 this scene is an essentially good character being corrupted by an outside force. At no point in the books do you ever really question who the good guys and who the bad guys are. At no point do Orcs come across as anything but irredeemably evil and the Hobbits as being totally good.
I'm not saying that the story suffers because of it. I'm saying that always having things this way is not to everyone's taste.
>>47068860
The thing is, Emperor Alexios wanted to take the empire to Antioch at the most, he had no real intention of taking Jersusalem because he didn't expect it to be done. Hell, he assumed the crusaders were just going to be an honor guard to help push back the Seljuks and others.
So along comes a series of nobles, one of which(Bohemond) is a former enemy of his and someone who has attacked Byzantine territory and attempted to usurp the throne in Constantinople, and they're all saying that you need to supply them as they go and seize Jerusalem in the name of Christendom.
At this point, you're like "what the fuck", negotiations were never going to go well in the First Crusade and the stain that both sides left in trying to screw the other over soured relationships from that.
>>47069076
Leave it to a Catholic to twist the Son's word into lies that empower his own kind. Blinded are you by slights of hand such as these, that you forget they are just that: the work of man, not of God.
>>47069061
dumb LGposter
>>47068966
>Its a "an orthodox complains about Catholics and a guy counter-shitposts episode"
Don't you have shitposting on /his/ to do? Seriously, there is no fucking need for you two retards to try to bring that shit here.You realize that people like you are the only Orthodox most of us Catholics will ever meet right? When you go starting arguments based on historical falsehoods and then go to insult people's saints, it gets put down on the list with the only other thing I know about Orthodoxy. That the Russian head of the church is super corrupt. I imagine much the same is true for Catholics though with you.
Winning the hearts and minds there folks.
>>47068899
You must've failed that test pretty badly then since your reading comprehension seems terrible.
>>47067709
literally all of those things have explanations with a fucking bible size of history and interactions supporting them
most people get confused because people give the wrong reasons for them. like the eagles. or use the movies as a stand in for the book
>>47068986
Just the obvious ones?
Mentioning that Robert Howard is the main inspiration for DnD's aesthetic.
>Original DMG
>Appendix N
>the "most immediate influences"
>Robert E. Howard,
>Edgar Rice Burroughs,
>A. Merritt,
>H. P. Lovecraft,
>Fritz Leiber,
>L. Sprague de Camp,
>Fletcher Pratt,
>Roger Zelazny, and
>Michael Moorcock.
But at least Tolkien inspired Orcs and Halflings. His dwarves were bog-standard from fantasy of his time, so it's likely that they're not the main influence for DnD dwarves.
>>47069103
So basically you're stupid.
Cool.
>>47069043
Oh, as if pulp fiction is the height of literature. Is that really the sacred cow GRRM is slaughtering?
>>47069103
>who is boromir
>who is denethor
>>47066232
That's viciously stupid as much or more as the opposite.
personally I liked the old Warhammer fantasy battle approach, lots of historical inspirations added to classical high fantasy elements, moral dubiousness all about and lots of bits with cultural intolerance, but end of the day there is always a horde of savage lunatics, the daemons they worship, bellowing orcs and/or undead assholes to contrast against them
who says you cant have the best of both worldsGW did and gave us a bad Asgard ripoff in its place
>>47069218
>>47069218
What? I was pointing to obvious sources for DND.
>also, Howard is ten times the writer Tolkien ever was
>>47069172I honestly just enjoy doing this whole "stuffy offended orthodox" bit because it lets me use big words and purple prose, I'm not even close to Orthodox myself, raised Catholic and all that. I thought that the overblown DARE YE INSULT OUR GLORY part would get me a bait.jpg soonerI mean, away with thee, heathenous cretin.
>>47069103
Very good point, at no point is it about inner turmoil or personal struggle, instead it's about a no-question black evil exerting it's control over him.
>>47069224
>>who is boromir
My favourite.
>>47069172
You do realize most posts on 4chan are just banter trying to annoy the other person right? No one gives a fuck about truth here they just want to mock, and I sincerely doubt any of the armchair theologians you run into on the various boards even believe what they're saying.
GRRM needs to A.) read pic related and B.) learn some humility.
>>47069254
It's shocking to thing that Howard only wrote for such a short time before dying. He could have had so much longer to develop his skills.
He could have been truly amazing, probably helped along that he was a paranoid schizophreniac and all.
>>47069266
Oh well, as long as you're not serious.
>>47069172
>not knowing that most Orthodox are actually really nice people and are nice arguers
Someone hasn't been on/pol/
>>47069290
Boromir is my favourite too!
>>47069318
The only really good Ende's book.
>>47069103
>"I choose not to do this thing. The ring is mine."
He was tempted by an outside force, but the choice was Frodo's.
>>47069363
HOL UP
What aboutSpiegel im Spiegel?
>>47069224
Both, at least arguably, corrupted by magical means. Boromir because the ring, Denethor by Wormtongue.
These are not anything but essentially good people being corrupted, who immediately return to being good once the influence of their corruption is removed. And it still doesn't change the fact that the main protagonists and antagonists do not have anything approaching grey in them at all. They are black and white. LotR is black and white.
And again, I stress, LotR being black and white does not detract from it. I don't subscribe to the idea that grey morality always makes things more mature, complicated or better in any way.
>>47069373
Yeah, sure was, definitely wasn't mind-controlling him and causing sporadic 180 degree personality shifts because pure evil.
>>47066232
Wow, I didn't realize GRRM was this stupid.
>>47069385
>Denethor by Wormtongue.
>>47069385
I apologize in advance for all the samefagging you are about to receive.
Watch as none refute the point.
>>47069402
Bane?
>>47069385
Boromir is corrupted by greed and hope, and he dies for it you mong.
I don't think you read LotR and if you did you certainly didn't understand it.
I would peg you as an obnoxious 21 year old based on your limited understanding of the subtext.
>>47069401
its because he thinks his way is THE way, is the real problem
>>47067187
It's funny how the Conan cartoons portray him to be smarter than that.
>>47069329
>tfw baptized as both Orthodox and Catholic
>tfw like aspects of both churches
>tfw I just want the schism mended
>mfw I have no face
>>47069385
Wormtongue fucked with theoden, not denethor.
Boromir was not corrupted by the ring, he sought it out because of a foolish and selfish belief he could control its power
>>47069421
Does Tolkien ever call The One Ring's magical dominance "greed and hope" ?
I need to re-read the books.
>>47069432
>anabaptism
WEW LADS
>>47069330
>traveling through Russia with a couple of friends I met in my old college days
>walking across a street
>get creamed by a fucking car
>taken to a hospital
>literally fucking dying
>manage to gurgle out that I need a priest
>priest comes in
>priest apparently asks if I'm orthodox
>polish friend tells him I'm a catholic
>the priest literally walks out of the room
I choose to think I lived through sheer force of anger.
>>47069458
One parent was Orthodox and one was Catholic.
They couldn't agree on which one to baptize me as.
>>47069487
>>the priest literally walks out of the room
No anon, it's like having a Rabbi come to you, it's the wrong religion and you should never get your last rites from a person that isn't your own faith.
>>47069385
Sauron wanted to improve the world. By the time LotR takes place there probably was no good left in him, but his original intentions were good, even if misguided.
Much the same, Boromir was only easily corrupted by the Ring because he was wiling to be corrupted. The Ring is power personified, and people who wish to hold power are more easily influenced by the Ring. This is why Frodo and Bilbo seemed to be almost immune to its effect.
>>47067567
You mean like that Vikings tv show?
>>47069454
No.
Boromir wants it because he thinks he can use the power to save Gondor and believes the Hobbits are selfish for not sharing the power with his kingdom even briefly.
>>47069487
Satan tends to be hard to kill.
>>47069514
He wants it for purely good reasons, then it corrupts him when he has it. That is in fact proving anon's point of Black and White.
>>47069390
And yet somehow it didn't corrupt Sam. Ever. Even though he spent more time in its presence than anyone but Bilbo, Frodo, and Gollum.
The ring was about temptation, not corruption. It was the whispering voice that suggests, not the whip-hand that masters.
I just want some hope in my stories, okay. Is that so much to ask for?
>>47069541
>wanting Hope in your story
>not wanting despair and then Hope kicking in by the end
>>47069424
thats because in the Books he was clever as fuck, he also tended to not have a single look, generally wearing clothes or armor local to wherever he was
>>47069536
Wrong-o.
Boromir is willing to cut corners even before he touches it. Which is evidenced when the fellowship is established.
>>47069381
Didn't like that much. Though maybe 7 stories were good.
