Mage 2e was released to Beast's backers who selected that tier, as well as playtesters. The rest of us who want to purchase it properly will be salivating for the next 20-something hours, and then hardcopies will take about another month. In the meantime, someone has shared the PDF with us, so let's not pretend we aren't pouring over it for flaws and thinking how cool it is while wishing we actually played games.
https://mega.nz/#!B4US0aqZ!ZfMiO0LX9FP2pRWGMJKmosYd8PJiChPGx3ZJLKUJZs8
Today's topic is about Mage primarily, but can concern any Defiant looking to curse God with occult knowledge, Ashen Courtiers looking for esoteric secrets to use as bargaining, Mummy Cults looking to gather up ancient secrets and odd phenomena, Begotten scholar looking to find the ultimate origins of the supernatural, or any old group of Hunters to get in over their head with dark dealings:
What are some good Mysteries? What strange and unusual occult phenomena could you base a Chronicle around? What dark secrets can you drive the characters--and maybe even their players--mad with?
>Previous Thread: >>47052963
>Pastebin
http://pastebin.com/mByuG93b
>>47059905
>Image
And this, my friends, is why Life+Matter can get a tad out of hand when you apply ghosts or spirits.
>>47059961
It's why you don't go investigating ̶E̶l̶d̶r̶a̶z̶i̶ strange happenings.
>>47060017
...That is also true
Would Eldrazi be Abyssals or entities from the Lower Depths?
>>47060114
>Literally the denizens of the barrier between planes/universes
They're Abyssal entities.
>>47060114
Abyssal Intruders. They originate in the Blind Eternities and want to destroy and subsume reality.
>>47060162
And they corrupt things into more Eldrazi. Yeah.
You know, I hadn't actually realized that the Quiescence is the result of the Exarchs, not the Abyss.
>The Orders agree that the Lie is too elaborate and too finely targeted to be an accident. There’s a guiding intelligence behind it. Mages know that some symbols have a semblance of life. They summon Supernal entities, pulling them from the Supernal World into the Fallen. Most are content to let mages come to them, but the occult symbols bound up in the Lie are evidence that something, deep in the unseen Supernal Realms, is actively trying to cripple humanity’s ability to perceive beyond the Fallen World. More than trying — it’s succeeding. What this enemy is depends on the tale, but mages use the Greek word for “rule from the outside” — “Exarch.”
>>47060301
Yea, the Abyss was the tool that they used to separate the Supernal and Fallen and to place the Quiescense in Sleeper souls but it was the Exarch's will that made it happen, not some random effect of the Abyss.
I keep finding references in 2e books that imply armor doesn't apply to aggravated damage but kind find any solid rules info on it. Does anyone have a quote from a book or dev that clears this up?
>>47060909
I think it's not that armor doesn't apply against agg damage so much as most sources of agg damage ignore armor.
Armor isn't going to protect a Vampire from fire or sunlight, after all. But a Werewolf in kevlar can still block a silver bullet.
>>47060909
Because it's not true. General Armour works against aggravated damage. As >>47061096
says, it's just that many forms of aggravated damage bypass the combat system entirely.
Gentlemen, we require more Insect themed Bloodlines.
Well, on the one hand, it doesn't talk about Atwantis on every goddamned page.
On the other hand, it was so desperate to find its own identity away from Ascension that it just broke into Unknown Armies' house and stole a couple of shirts.
Seriously, my problem with Awakening 2e is the same as my problem with Requiem 23 - I can't get excited when it takes them twelve years to demonstrate base fucking competence in writing their goddamn game. Seriously, the 1e main lines are like if they just published that first draft of Beast and ignored the backlash for a decade.
>>47061300
Nothing can compare to the Melissidae
>>47061310
But UA and Ascension have more in common than UA and Awakening...
Also what "them" are you talking about, the 1e and 2e editions are literally made by different companies. A lot of the writers are still around but both Requiem and Awakening have different lead devs now. Of course they're going to be different.
>>47061383
The Mabry vomit spiders.
>>47061096
>>47061173
Thanks for clearing that up.
>>47061480
I find the idea of a Mekhet Bloodline that claims descent from the aqrabuamelu/girtablilu (Scorpion men) intriguing.
I want to make a Free Council Mage named Lovelace--based on Ada Lovelace, the creator of the first computer program--who's Praxis is viewed through the metaphor of hacking and coding language. There's just one problem.
I know like nothing about computers. How do I play a character who's worldview is that this is the Matrix and they can rewrite it however they want?
>>47061759
Like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJq3OiP6Sow
>>47061759
>I know like nothing about computers. How do I play a character who's worldview is that this is the Matrix and they can rewrite it however they want?
It's wrong though.
They can't re-write it however they want.
There is a group of sadistic sysadmins, and a hostile virus to contend with.
>>47061759
>How do I play a character who's worldview is that this is the Matrix and they can rewrite it however they want?
There's a movie about this.
Starring one of the leads from the movie Speed.
Watch the Net.
>>47061407
Maybe in the fact that magic in MtAsc and UA are anthrocentric, but UA and Awakening both approach the "cosmic power and high ambition are toxic when combined" theme in two different ways.
I have no idea what that poster is talking about with the "every 1e nWoD core is equivalent to the Beast Kickstarter draft", though. If they feel that way, I have no idea why they're even still paying attention to White Wolf/Onyx Path.
>Animal Minion (Life ••••)
>Practice: Patterning
>Primary Factor: Duration
>Withstand: Stamina
>Suggested Rote Skills: Animal Ken, Science, Survival
>Rather than triggering instincts and directing an animal along a course it might normally take, an Adept can take full bodily control.
>She does so with raw domination, a puppetmaster commanding a marionette. While she can’t force the creature to do something outside its physical capabilities, she can make it do anything of which its body is capable.
How the hell is this not a Ruling spell?
That's literally the definition of the Practice of Ruling!
>Control Instincts (Life ••)
>Practice: Ruling
>Primary Factor: Duration
>Withstand: Composure
>Suggested Rote Skills: Animal Ken, Intimidation, Persuasion
>For all their intellectual powers, humans are animals, too, and animals are governed by instincts. An Apprentice of Life can control these instinctual responses like a puppeteer pulling strings. In so doing she can make any animal or plant behave in any fashion natural to its type.
This is a Compelling.
>>47062393
The Summons spells are all 3 dots too.
Some lingering hiccups from Mage 1e's "dots are just a balancing factor, right?" but it's not nearly as bad as it was, at least.
>>47062423
I'm gonna have a shitton of houseruling to do.
Starting Thyrsus who specialize in Life can't heal Lethal? Your Cabal's Life specialist can't heal wounds from any fight that involved weapons?
>Every weapon deals lethal damage to mortals. A baseball bat, club, or mace does just as much serious trauma to the human body as an edged weapon or a bullet.
>>47062393
>How the hell is this not a Ruling spell?
Because you're rewriting a natural creature into a robot without animal instincts.
>>47062457
>Starting Thyrsus who specialize in Life can't heal Lethal? Your Cabal's Life specialist can't heal wounds from any fight that involved weapons?
you can use body control to rapidly speed up healing
>>47062470
"Total control over a subject" is Ruling. That definition is bending over backwards to justify it being a Patterning spell after-the-fact.
If it's "not balanced" at 2 dots, that's literally what Reach is for.
Hell, if you want it to be balanced for an Adept I could literally see, on a Ruling spell, "+2 Reach: your control is so absolute that the subject animal is no longer influenced by instincts beyond what you've ordered it to do".
>>47062524
>"Total control over a subject" is Ruling.
Literally not what the section on what ruling Is says
Ruling spells grant fuller control over phenomena than a mere Compelling spell. Water can be made to flow uphill or into unnatural shapes (Matter), animals (or even humanbeings) can be commanded (Life or Mind), or time can be momentarily made to accelerate or slow down (Time). A Ruling spell can’t fundamentally alter its target’s abilities: Water can be directed, but not turned solid or gaseous. Time can be altered, but not overwritten. An animal can be commanded, but not made stronger or fiercer.
>>47062524
control instincts is ruling
>>47062524
There's a difference between forcing an animal to attack its owner(Ruling), and rewiring the animals brain to make it wholly your slave(Patterning).
One of them is a fundamental alteration of the animals Pattern, and thus, requires the Patterning spell.
>>47061895
Fuck you, HACK THE PLANET
>>47061996
>Starring one of the leads from the movie Speed.
What is this, the mid90s? I think we all know who Sandra Bullock is.
There is also Ghost Summons. Predictably, it calls ghosts. It should be Ruling, not Perfecting.
>>47062558
>An animal can be commanded, but not made stronger or fiercer.
Instinct-puppetry isn't command.
>Water can be directed, but not turned solid or gaseous.
By this definition, a Life Ruling could, say, tell a larva to do anything a larva could do while still being a larva, but couldn't make it spontaneously become a butterfly.
>>47062457
I don't think house ruling Mages to be even MORE powerful is a good idea.
>>47062654
they're significantly more balanced in power now
>>47062671
Are they still the strongest?
And Stealing Fire changes sleeper into a sleepwalker. That should be Patterning, not Perfecting. I would stomach Weaving, but I don't see how could Perfecting possibly fit.
>>47062654
I had to ignore the sample spells to make things actually follow the Practices in 1e (which removed bullshit like Diplomat's Protection), I guess I can do it again with 2e.
Anything that's "too powerful" can be balanced with Reach. That's what it's there for. You can DO it, but you'll get fucked with Paradox unless you're an Adept (or whatever).
>>47062681
not really, no
>>47062683
But you see, a Sleepwalker is an improvement/refinement of being a Sleeper, so therefore it's Perfecting!!
>>47062683
its perfecting because it improves them
Perfecting spells are the opposite of Fraying spells in many
ways: they bolster, strengthen, and improve rather than
weakening and eroding. A Perfecting spell might repair
damage to an object or a person (Matter or Life), allow
a machine to function perfectly with no wear and tear
(Matter), or make a modest destiny into an earth-shaking
one (Fate).
did you even read how the practices work? because you're coming at it from a lot of wrong directions
>>47062696
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
>>47062721
It's much more "changing their fundamental nature" than it is "bolstering or improving a Sleeper". A Sleepwalker is no longer a Sleeper. Note that none of those examples change what the subject IS, just make it stronger or run better. Sleepwalkers aren't just "Sleepers, but stronger".
>>47062608
Anon was making a Matrix joke.
Something's bothering me about Mage 2e. Do you have a base pool for spell casting? For example in 1e, it was Skill + Arcanum + Attribute (rote) and Gnosis + Arcanum (improvised). Do we not have this anymore? From what I gather, you build your dice pool out of yantras (to offset any penalties + get more bonus up to +5) at which point your spell casting pool never exceeds 5 dice. Is this correct?
In related bits, how do rotes work? Specifically, when it says Suggested rote skills, I take it you pick one of said skills to be your Mudra? Then if said skill is an Order skill, you add 1 die to dice pool?
>>47062721
>did you even read how the practices work? because you're coming at it from a lot of wrong directions
The Practices definitions are the same as the ones from the Creative Thaumaturgy devblog released a year ago. I absolutely know what the Practices are.
>>47062997
then why are you so wrong?
>>47062991
your pool can get higher than +5
it can never get lower than -5
>>47062991
For improvesed spells
When casting the spell, the mage creates a dice pool based
on her Gnosis and her dots in the highest Arcanum included
in the spell.
enhance spell factors gives it a penalty
adding yantras and shits give its a bonus
>>47062991
Basic pool is Gnosis + Arcanum, for rotes you get to add a skill as well.
Yantras can add some extra bonuses on top of that.
>>47063056
Ooooo. Thanks. That is a big relief.
>>47062991
Your base pool is Gnosis+Arcanum+Yantras. The Yantras are a circumstance/equipment bonus. Their primary purpose is offsetting penalties from increasing spell factors (for example, making your Duration three turns instead of 1 turn imposes a -4 die penalty, so if you get +5 from yantras you end up with a net bonus of +1 from yantras). The +5 cap is the maximum bonus you can get after offsetting penalties, so you can't boost your Gnosis+Arcanum+Yantras pool to +15 at Gnosis 2 and Life 3.
The Rote skill is set by whichever Master created the Rote. The skill in question has to make sense for the spell, hence suggested skills (and to fill the ST in on sensible Rote skills for Rotes the Orders have that were created by a Master from that Order centuries ago). If the Rote's creator picked a skill that's one of your Order's specialties, you get a bonus die, regardless of whether the Rote's creator belonged to that Order (although naturally, a member of an Order will probably make Rotes using that Order's specialties because hey, bonus dice).
>>47063056
The skill bonus for a Rote counts as a Yantra bonus, actually. It's just a really big Yantra bonus (that one goes up to +6, assuming 5 dots and an Order Specialty, while most other Yantra bonuses cap out at +2 or +3).
>>47062766
It's perfecting them by fixing up that shardo f the abyss in them
>>47063015
I'm not? The Practices boil down to the following:
1 dot:
Unveiling: Add senses/methods of gaining information
Knowing: Gain information directly
Compelling: minor/"natural" control - force the sort of thing something could normally do in that situation
2 dots:
Shielding: Protection for things under the purview/from things under the purview
Veiling: Hide things under the purview/from things under the purview
Ruling: major/unnatural control (up to and including making water flow up instead of down)
3 dots:
Fraying: Minor damage.
Perfecting: Improvement/bolstering/repair.
Weaving: Change something's traits.
4 dots:
Unravelling: Major damage.
Patterning: completely change what something fundamentally IS, rather than just traits of the thing.
5 dots:
Making: Create something out of nothing.
Unmaking: Annihilate something - create nothing out of something.
You'll note that control stops at 2 dots, after which you get into improvement, creation, damage, annihilation, and change.
They really had to put a transgender sidebar into this book? Really?
>>47063375
Where?
>>47063375
Just so you would make this post, you whiny baby.
Stop being so offended.
>>47063411
>>47063375
And that's the one place in the entire 300-page book that it gets mentioned.
Unless the genderless centuries-old Morphean offends you for reasons other than the authors not being allowed to use singular they.
>>47063451
H-hey, at least they got over that 90's "people are more inherently magical the less white they are", right? Right?
>Purge Illness removes diseases that are already in the body
>Shielding
Oh hey, this is wrong too.
It works at 2 dots if you make it a Ruling, though.
Is it bad that the first character I feel like playing is a Seer?
>>47063493
Reminder: create a Proximus Dynasty of magical curseslingling gypsies to commemorate the good old days.
>>47063513
Nah they got a lot of depth.
>>47063509
diseases are life
you're shielding yourself from them
>>47061759
>Not Alan Turing
hes way more Free council. Hes a gay Autistic genius that invented the computer.
Why can't I shake off the feeling the 2nd edition books are all practically counting on being bought by fans of the old editions? You can't seriously expect completely new players to be able to make heads or tails of this, can you? I get it that each book now needs 70 pages dedicated to the core rules, but why at the expanse of the "at the most basic, who these people are and what they do" chapter that always opened nWoD core books?
>>47063569
>but why at the expanse of the "at the most basic, who these people are and what they do" chapter that always opened nWoD core books?
that's been moved from the introduction to chapter 1
>>47063509
I feel like a lot of these problems are first-dot spells copypasted at their first-dot levels even where that doesn't make any sense.
Ruling to force their immune system to beat the disease, Fraying/Unravelling/Unmaking to kill the disease, Weaving to change the host's traits from "diseased" to "healthy", but Shielding?
Shielding them against illness would prevent them from getting sick in the first place. It would let you go into work where all your coworkers have the flu and never even develop a sniffle. Or it could shield you from the symptoms of a disease you've already got ("My cells are now shielded against influenza virus infection"), but it wouldn't straight-up purge the pathogen from your body.
>>47063584
In a far diminished form. You don't understand how much less useful information is there for new players because you already know what there's to know. Someone who's never touched Werewolf: The Forsaken who decided to start with the 2nd edition wouldn't have any idea what the fuck is going on.
>>47063569
Now that CofD is no longer the flagship World of Darkness brand, existing fans are pretty much going to be the only customers.
>>47063618
>Someone who's never touched Werewolf: The Forsaken who decided to start with the 2nd edition wouldn't have any idea what the fuck is going on.
they'd have to be completely stupid, it's written out throroughly in the first two sections
>>47063558
That would make sense as a Shielding, but that's not actually what the text says the spell is doing.
Arcane Beats/Xp is a pretty interesting idea. Is that in other CofD games, too?
>>47063451
>>47063375
Dave's mentioned that sidebar for over a year. It's fairly accurate and applicable to the game, not new or very preachy, the issue and related matters like unusual pronouns or token minorities in the book are subtle and minor, and by WW/OP standards, it's barely worth a discussion even if you strongly disagree with the premise.
There's more than ample substantive material to review and analyze that discussing how Life and Mind allows your character to easily be a gender-fluid, hermaphroditic bisexual without raising an eyebrow in the Pentacle is a waste of time and energy.
However, I would like an explanation for the Free Council art piece. I could care less about chaps and rainbow pride flags as a general matter, but what the heck does what looks like a early 1990's San Francisco gay pride parade have to do with the Free Council? They could have easily commissioned better art to represent the diversity, revolutionary outlook, and old and new traditions of the Order.
>>47063887
To varying degrees of emphasis. I don't think werewolf has woof beats, but vampire has blood beats, and changeling's gonna have wyrd beats, iinm.
And of course it started with Hunters and Practical XP.
>>47063451
>people who can turn into a giraffe and wander around the savanah for weeks at a time while still being able to get their morning coffee tend not to give a fuck about gender after a while
Who'dathunkit?
>>47063514
>magical curseslingling gypsies
Nah, they should be based off of Baba Yaga and Koschei.
How are Proximi Dynasties different from the the Pentacle Orders and the Seers exactly?
How come that Unknown Armies, a game which has what is essentially a character class dedicated to being so transgender you become magic and another one dedicated to being such a liberated woman you start flying, and which the arguable hero of whose metaplot is basically the god of queers, never felt that need to preach to its readers in textboxes? How come it managed to make the humanity, sympatheticness, and both social and spiritual importance of femininity, queer power and trans philosophy emerge organically from the writing, ending up with the reader thinking "this is some deep shit, I ought to read more about this", rather than "who are these condescending cunts and when did I piss in their cereal?"
It's not about subtlety versus directness. It's about talent. Unknown Armies is such an in-your-face text the author regularly insults the reader in the second person while explaining the rules. It's just that Greg Stolze is a hundred times the writer anyone in Onyx Path ever will be. What the flying fuck.
My current major grip about Mage 2e is the inability to heal lethal damage until Life 4.
Not only is that a major nerf for mage society overall, but since starting characters max out at three dots in one of their Ruling Arcana, Thyrsus PC's lost one of their biggest advantages and draws.
Among other issues in the new book, Dave has apparently ensured the good ol' days of "mage supremacy" have come to an abrupt end.
>>47062689
I don't really think that I've seen any examples here that are actually in need of changing, or things that aren't following the practices.
>>47064018
I know space was limited, but a *lot* of sample spells demonstrating the depth and breadth of the Arcana were missing.
Mage 2e definitely needs a spell grimoire or "how to" supplement.
>>47064018
Yeah, Thyrsus Life specialists literally cannot magically regenerate the results of any fight involving weapons.
They can make you naturally heal it faster (at the cost of a shitton of Reach), but they can be a Spirit specialist and still do that. Disciples of Life being able to heal Bashing instantly is ehhh.
Wait Mage is out?
Who leaked it? AmyV strikes again?
>>47063979
A Proximi Dynasty gives you access to a list of spells(purchased as merits) that you can cast. There is no mechanical relation to the Pentacle Orders and Seers, beyond that certain Dynasties are in service to certain orders(Slaves of the Throne, for example, are servants to the Seers).
>>47064018
You can heal lethal before life 4, you fucktard.
>Body Control (Life ••)
>Practice: Ruling
>Primary Factor: Duration
>Suggested Rote Skills: Athletics, Medicine, Survival
>With this spell a mage can control her subject’s bodily functions to a degree that would make even the most inwardly-focused monks envious. She can do far more than slow heart rate; she can control her subject’s metabolism, heighten reflexes, and consume less oxygen. For the spell’s Duration, each level of Potency gives one rank in each of the following:
>Breathing: Each rank slows down the subject’s breathing, halving the amount of oxygen she needs to function normally.
>Heartbeat: By slowing down the subject’s heartbeat, she can double the interval at which a toxin affects her.
>Metabolism: Regulating the subject’s metabolism allows her tosubsist on half as much food, and doubles the amount of time between checks for deprivation or fatigue.
>Reflexes: Add +1 to the subject’s Initiative.
>Scent: The mage can change the subject’s scent to any that her body could naturally produce, eliminating (or increasing) body odors, controlling pheromone release.
>>Each level of Potency also halves the healing time of bashing wounds by controlling internal bleeding, preventing bruises or helping them to heal quickly. With Potency 3, for example, she would recover one bashing wound per minute.
>+1 Reach: The subject also gains 1/0 armor for the spell’s Duration as her body becomes much more resistant to minor injuries.
>>+2 Reach: The subject also halves the healing time for lethal damage for each level of Potency.
Cast Body Control, use +2 Reach
Or is that not magical enough, for you?
>>47064197
Not Amy, someone else.
Will be out legit soon.
Dark Eras dropped at about this time on a Tuesday evening. We can pray for a miracle like that to occur twice.
>>47063375
>>47063451
It took two days for someone to notice?
>>47063566
Yeah, but the whole "made the first algorithm" thing. Although a woman with Alan Turing as her spirit animal would be apt. Though any Alan Turing themed Mage would want to go with "Snow White" as their Shadowname.
>>47063893
The Free Council is the most SJW of Orders. Like, I'm not even being sarcastic, that's one of their hats. Gay Bondage Wizards is a Free Council (and Arrow) Legacy. That guy (those guys, since there's one in the back) is probably a Whipping Boy.
>>47063480
>Unless the genderless centuries-old Morphean offends you for reasons other than the authors not being allowed to use singular they.
I am irrationally angry that it doesn't use they. It was the fucking 2015 Word of the Year. Down with prescrivitism.
>>47064018
The reasoning, based on the Creative Thaumaturgy "Determine Effect and Cost" section, is that they didn't want magical healing to outpace magical damage-dealing. You deal Bashing damage with 3 dots, Lethal damage with 4 dots, or Aggravated damage with 4 dots and a Reach, so you heal Bashing damage with 3 dots, Lethal damage with 4 dots, or Aggravated damage with 4 dots and a Reach.
There are three problems with this approach, though:
1) That's not how the Practices are laid out to begin with: Damage is specifically subdivided into Fraying and Unravelling, but there's no such subdivision in healing Perfecting is healing, and Patterning is an upgraded version of Weaving, not Perfecting.
2) Any Arcanum can do damage using Fraying and Unravelling. Life is the only one that can heal damage, so it having to be "balanced" against damage-dealing spells is kind of ridiculous.
3) There are a load of ways to do damage nonmagically. Baseball bats, knives, guns, brass knuckles, any of these things deal Lethal, and you can also use magic to make them deal MORE damage. There are no ways to improve healing nonmagically.
>>47058271
>Three persons Awaken. Except they are the same person. The end result is a Mage, with the memories of three persons, their full lives up until the point of Awakening.
>All three of them have friends and family who know them. They all recognize the person as their friend, but it's three isolated social circles, with zero overbleed.
Teiresian Metamorphosis: A qashmal with this Numen can change the gender of a living being. ...
A qashmal can also use this Numen to join two humans together in one hermaphrodite being, a true rebis, wholly male and wholly female. ...
The rebis takes both sets of Attributes and Skills, using the higher every time. If one of the components of the rebis is a mage, the rebis still has all his or her Gnosis and Arcana. If both components are mages, the rebis uses the higher of the partners’ Gnosis and Arcana dots. If two mages joined as a rebis are of different Paths, the rebis keeps both Paths (meaning that the mage might now have as many as four Ruling Arcana and no Inferior Arcana).
>>47064221
>Gay Bondage Wizards is a Free Council (and Arrow) Legacy.
More arrow than council.
>>47064215
>Or is that not magical enough, for you?
No, it actually isn't. At level 5, it still means an hour and a half per box of lethal damage. Half the reason people played Thrysus back in the day was because they could heal it in an instant.
>>47064247
>>47058271
Or maybe this went wrong (or right, depending on your viewpoint)
Rebirth: This Numen is possessed only by conceptual spirits of choirs associated with reincarnation, or karma. Rebirth represents a process that, once begun, must be completed within one week (seven days), or else the benefits are lost. The spirit must first Claim a human body, either mortal or Awakened (a mage).
The spirit must then kill and devour two more people within the next seven days. (If the Claimed victim was a mage, the other victims must also be a mage.) During this time, the spirit stores the souls of those it kills. Once it kills its third victim, it then restores one of those victims to life with renewed youth in a
transformed version of the Claimed body: the body is biologically 18 years old, although it ages normally from then on. ...
Once this Numen has played out, the spirit is involuntarily subject to the effects of the Discorporation Numen.
>>47064215
>halves the healing time per level of Potency
>Primary factor is Duration, so Potency is 1 by default
Ooh, heal 1 Lethal per day and risk Paradox doing it! Wow! You'd need Potency 8 just to get to "heal 1 Lethal damage in under 15 minutes", or what werewolves get by default. That's a penalty of 14 dice, which is not something a starting Thyrsus is going to be able to pull off. You'd need -10 dice just to heal 1 Lethal per hour (well, 45 minutes).
>>47064273
then it's a good change, cause thyrsus aren't clerics
It's the 4th edition problem all over again. People were so hung up on the "we must resolve mage supremacy" issue they took it all the way to the other end and made them sort of pathetic.
>>47064356
>Implying the people who can do just about anything are pathetic
>>47064356
And werewolves got the opposite treatment, going from the sad jokes of NWoD into the gods of CofD (actually, it's from the gods of OWoD to the sad jokes of NWoD to the gods of CofD).
>>47064356
they're not pathetic, they're just good at what they're meant to be good at
>>47064356
>and made them sort of pathetic
Say what? Just because they cant heal as quickly as a Werewolf?
>>47063909
Nah, werewolves get their extra beats from sacred hunts. Goddamn XP machine, that.
>>47064197
>>47064217
I'm just a standard Beast-backing anonAnd I regret it entirely
>>47064395
Regret backing Beast, or regret leaking Mage to /tg/?
>mfw people had to back beast for this
>>47064390
Assuming you roll well.
If the dice hate you like they do with me, you're lucky if you get A beat.
>>47064410
Backing Beast
I wouldn't have leaked it if I was going to regret it
>>47064437
or be a playtester
if you backed beast you got it for 15 dollarydoos
if you're a playtester for free
>>47064441
You still get a beat for resolving the hunt.
I suggest getting one of the exceptional success on 3 success instead of 5 powers.
>>47064384
Mages were "meant" to be good at everything, WITH ENOUGH PREPARATION. That's always been their thing, ever since OWoD and its "a garou eats 1d4 low Arete mages per turn, a single high Arete mage could conquer the World of Darkness if only they didn't think it was beneath them". Now, the penalties and requirements for anything useful are so high that until you hit god level, you're barely mechanically viable.
>>47063991
Keep going, you might win at two threads ago.
>>47064514
>Mages were "meant" to be good at everything, WITH ENOUGH PREPARATION.
no, they weren't
owod just had no concrete idea of what magic was or what it should do so they ended up being able to do everything
>Now, the penalties and requirements for anything useful are so high that until you hit god level, you're barely mechanically viable.
it's nothing like that, there's no need to whine
>>47064317
So use their other Path arcana - Spirit
Conjure bind / create a spirit with the heal numen (Spirit 3 lets you give existing spirits new numen at random, regardless of their theme or resonance). Have a load of them floating around you at all time like med-packs
Have spirit servants fetter themselves to your Cabal and have them use their ability to spend essence to heal (and lack of a cap on their essence/turn) to keep someone going if they end up in a nuclear reactor or on the wrong end of a werewolf.
>>47064566
Acanthus were always best Path.
This doesn't change the fact that people with Life Legacies suck at healing.
So, mages are on the same level with everyone else now, is that what people are saying? Has ANYONE LOOKED at temporal spook Sympathy? You can cast your instant murder spell on the vampire before he changed into a vampire! Or on the immortal when it was a baby and can die! Acanthus new best path.
>>47064590
Didn't mean to reply.
>>47064535
He's still right.
>>47064221
>I am irrationally angry that it doesn't use they.
To be fair, I think Dave is too.
Sadly he doesn't control the style guide.
Can Forces affect potential energy?
>>47064658
>To be fair, I think Dave is too.
>i like him, so he must think like me
he probably doesn't give a shit
>>47064682
If tripless ipad dave was real, it actually does bother him that they cant use singular thay. Probably not enough that it keeps him up at night screaming at the moon cursing Dracula's name, but you know, a bit.
>>47064704
>Probably not enough that it keeps him up at night screaming at the moon cursing Dracula's name, but you know, a bit.
Dracula must be staked into his prescriptivist coffin and have his throat slit with a bowie knife.
But it was probably Rich's call.
Major gripe #2 after needing Life 4 to heal lethal:
How the heck is Psychic Domination with the Reach benefits that take total control of the subject and could force them to commit suicide or worse only a Mind 2 Ruling Practice? It's Patterning, or at the very least, Weaving?
The spell really needs to lose the Reach domination bonuses to remotely remain the the current Practice.
As it now stands, taking Mind 2 and the two dot Psychic Domination Rote appears to be "I win" button of Mage 2e.
>>47064671
>Can Forces affect potential energy?
Give an example of what effect you're trying to accomplish?
>>47064740
its not patterning at all, it's ruling, you're making them do things but you're not turning them into a robot
>>47064704
>>47064739
>cursing Dracula's name
Dracula had nothing to do with it. It's been that way since long before the Paradox buyout.
>>47064740
Because you're telling them to kill themselves, not re-wiring their brain to make them your slave.
>>47064790
Life disagrees.
>>47064740
>How the heck is Psychic Domination with the Reach benefits that take total control of the subject and could force them to commit suicide or worse only a Mind 2 Ruling Practice
Because you're taking total control of the subject's mind, which IS Ruling of Mind.
Ruling of Life should be the same thing, also with Reach benefits if necessary. Control them via their meat-brain the same way Mind controls them via their psyche.
>>47064740
Patterning transforms, it doesn't command
>>47064810
Patterning commands according to Life 4, where it gives you the 1e Animalism 5 Vampire Discipline power (possess an animal while rendering your own body comatose).
This is retarded, but it's in the book.
>Ghost Summons
>Perfecting
>Not Ruling
>Not even Weaving or something
>fucking Perfecting
>>47064820
Why are you so hung up on Life? Life is shit, and you have the broken unbalaced ball pit of Spirit right there
>>47064221
But its also not all they are. They are the technomages, who use their electronics as magic tools. They are the artists, who believe that expression is a crack that leads to the supernal. They are the preachers of democracy in the most well defined meritocracy ever.
I understand that they would participate in a gay pride parade or whatever, but is that really their forefront image? To me that looks more like art for the Whipping Boys, a dual parentage legacy as you yourself mentioned, who are a S/M based legacy that is deeply rooted in the idea of "alternative lifestyles" and being against status quo, who do have that as their foremost image.
>>47064820
it transforms an animal into a robot, no instincts or anything, it just follows your commands
psychic domination just gives orders
>>47064820
>>47064851
That being said, Animal minion definitely should be Ruling. That looks like a goof
>>47064848
turns ghost from a repeating memory into something useful
>>47064740
There are several I Win buttons. All are quite a bit more difficult than you treat them. Your understanding of the Practice also seems limited.
>Ruling spells grant fuller control over phenomena than a mere Compelling spell.
>animals (or even human beings) can be commanded (Life or Mind)
>An animal can be commanded, but not made stronger or fiercer.
I mean....it's right there in the Practice description.
>>47064851
Mages of other Paths with Life Legacies don't get Spirit.
Every Thyrsus I've ever played with went Life 3/Spirit 2, as well. Life is fucking cool, or it should be.
>>47064879
>psychic domination just gives orders
Not with the Reach effects.
My issue is that the Reach benefits are more than a mere bonus, but rather transforms the spell from Mind 2 to Mind 4.
If the Reach effects were eliminated, so would my objections.
>Fate finally has a spell that fates specific things to happen to the subject
>I can finally use my Acanthus to reward people who help her by fating them to find their true love tomorrow or something, instead of just throwing good luck at them
Thank you to whoever wrote Fate. I never liked that Fate was the Probability Arcanum instead of actually being about people's fates.
>>47064221
>You walked into the wrong neighborhood motherfucker.jpg
>>47064935
>Not with the Reach effects.
yes with the reach effects, it just gets rid of any resistance of the orders, the thing still has instincts, the magic just supercedes them
>>47064916
>There are several I Win buttons
What do you believe are the other "I win" spells in the new book?
I noticed some spells *seem* really impressive, but when you realize the time, resource cost, Paradox risk, dice penalties for factors, etc. to cast them in a remotely practical manner, they rapidly become far less attractive.
>>47064535
Of course, the punchline is that Greg Stolze's an Onyx Path/White Wolf writer (in the sense that anyone's really an "Onyx Path/White Wolf writer" since they're all freelancers now) and probably will be again once Demon 20 starts booting up. The disingenuous Stolze fellating is hilarious.
>>47064966
Fate is so good now, yet also more balanced. Acanthus are straight up the coolest now.
How do you fuck up the balance of fucking MAge Armor?
>>47065021
Mage armor ALWAYS have that much defense. But now they have to spend a mana to use it.
>>47065036
I meant between the various arcana, I've pushed the absurdness of the group under the mage supremacy rug. There are definite winners and losers though between the different armors
>>47065001
He writes fiction for Onyx Path, which is indeed leagues above most of the rest of it (such as in Mummy). Maybe they should consider letting him do more.
>>47065059
>There are definite winners and losers though between the different armors
there always were
>>47065077
And this was their chance to FIX IT!
>>47065059
Such as?
>>47065089
they did
instead of stupid it fits the arcanum
plus it finally gives you a reason to use dodge
>>47065096
Prime Armor is fucking garbage, for one, since Mages will never directly deal damage to each other with spells, and most supernaturals don't either.
>>47065174
>every ephemeral, supernal, goetic, true fae or abyssal
>>47065208
Any spirit with a meaningfully-dangerous Blast numen is going to plow through even 5 levels of reduction.
Any spirit that doesn't is, surprise, going to deal damage indirectly with its Influences and servants, just like mages.
>>47065174
maybe, just maybe, you should be using your forces armor instead of your prime armor when there aren't mages throwing spells at you
maybe, just maybe, a mage can have at least two kinds of mage armor accessible, and can use different ones to suit the situation
maybe that's the entire goddamn point
>>47065174
Seriously? The only thing that will protect them from me dealing, say, 10 unresisted aggravated damage, is garbage?
>>47065243
Loads of spirits are dumb and just Blast things they want to die, though.
>>47065252
Forces one is kind of shitty too
>>47065256
>10 agg
Enjoy your -20 dice penalty, reach, and mana cost
>>47065243
it's 5 less damage from blast numen, which can be the difference between life or death
>>47065298
>I have never seen what Blast can do.
>>47065252
Prime Armor HAS no situation where it's useful, is the point. "You can use Forces" doesn't excuse Prime being hot garbage on a plate.
>>47060017
THE TRUTH IS LAMPS
>>47065071
Game stuff, too. Stolze designed the Sekhem system in Mummy, and I think also had a hand in cults (I wanna say DaveB did as well but I'm not sure). And of course, he was the Demon the Fallen guy for a while.
Dude's probably gonna be super busy with Delta Green, Unknown Armies, and his own fiction work, but I'd love to see him come back for Demon20 and another Mummy stint. Vampire too, his Vampire material kicks ass.
>Targeted Summoning
I don't understand. They could already do that
>>47065308
>>I have never seen what Blast can do.
I have
I also know it's not always deadly and taking up to 5 damage off of it is big
I'm waiting until tomorrow when I can actually buy the book, so I've got a question for you guys.
Dave claimed the book would have alternate Beat-production methods, including ones for groups that don't roll as often as the game expects. Anyone seen that in there?
>>47065344
That rule is essentially "look at your ST-ing style and adjust so they're getting more / less"
>>47065174
>, since Mages will never directly deal damage to each other with spells
That's a stupid thing to say.
>>47065364
True though
>>47065364
You would have to be clinically retarded to deal direct damage with a spell.
If you have Mind 3, making someone put a gun in their mouth costs you exactly 1 more Reach than trying to deal even a single point of bashing damage. Mind 4, and it's exactly the same.
>>47065292
Okay, let's say, both mages are masters of a single arcanum. Time vs prime. The damage spells are both unresisted and have primary as Potency. So that's 5 agg with no penalty, one reach. Time mages can cast as a standard for one mana instead of reach. Take a -10 to your high diepool to increase Potency to ten. No paradox, and high chance of success. Luckily our prime Mage only takes 5 agg instead of 10, letting him survive.
>>47065390
>You would have to be clinically retarded to deal direct damage with a spell.
Or just not have mind or life.
>>47065362
Well that's... underwhelming. Thanks, though.
>>47065330
I got one of those, too. Though a friend gave it to me. I'm too poor for Magic.
>>47065417
Or Fate. Or Forces. Or Death. Or Spirit. Or basically any arcana, since almost all of them can make the environment fuck up your target, and that gets much better returns than 1 damage per 1 potency.
>direct damage's only advantage is that it's not Withstood
>welp, better make it totally unusable unless you gimp the ever-loving shit out of yourself to make the potency worth a damn
>>47063991
But UA 3e has an entire two-page spread on trigger warnings, and it's better for it.
>>47065474
Seriously? All the direct have a primary of Potency, so they start with Potency equal to your arcanum. Anything higher is gravy.
>bunch of whiny shits on /wodg/ who would ever have imagined
>>47065549
>all the other arcarnum can kill you with a thought
>direct damage not only can't kill you in one turn without reaching like a motherfucker, but at chargen it will only do bashing in a 1-1 basis
Direct damage is shit.
So, which arcanum do you think has the best attainments? I leaning heavily towards time. Temporal Sympathy and time in a bottle are TOO awesome.
>>47065334
Now it's core, and an Attainment, meaning you don't suffer Paradox for doing it.
>>47065308
you are misunderstanding what I said
that they are situational, and relying on Primes as a crutch is of course not going to work
so don't do that
>>47065706
>No one gives a fuck what you can do when you have no experience.
Literally the opposite is true. Nobody gives a fuck what you can do after 20XP, because 80% of games drop dead before anyone has even accrued 5.
>>47065706
You know what, you're right. Lets swing our dicks around and talk about what 5ifth degree masters can do
>>47065653
>without reaching like a motherfucker,
you just have to reach for range and potency
if its your primary arcanum you can do that from chargen
>>47065653
Why do people always say "at chargen"? No one gives a fuck what you can do
when you have no experience. And it doesn't take that much reach. One for instant casting, and if using 4th level direct, one for agg. Two reach, of my god.
>>47065730
That sounds like a you problem.
>>47065728
Prime is the only one that is anywhere near that situational though.
>>47065728
You are misunderstanding the point. Nobody wants Prime to be a catch-all (neverminding that there are, in fact, Mage Armors that you could cover more bases than not with). They want Prime to have any niche at-fucking-all.
"Spirits stupid enough to use Blast and mages stupid enough to use direct damage spells" is not a niche, it's win-more garbage.
>>47065730
>because 80% of games drop dead before anyone has even accrued 5.
sounds like someone is an autist who doesn't game for real
New Wisdom is shit. I think we were promised a Hunter-ish system where your personal code affected what broke you and what didn't, and what we have now is worse than renamed Integrity, for fuck's sake.
>>47065731
Dude, >>47065413 showed how easy it is for a time Mage with 4 arcana to deal shittons of agg. Which, if time was your 3 dot, takes 5 XP.
>>47065754
>"Spirits stupid enough to use Blast
blast is one of the most powerful ephemeral attacks
>>47065730
Wow, that's sad, anon. We're at around 50 XP in my game. Maybe there's something wrong with you if you can't keep a game going?
>>47065791
Addendum then: Spirits stupid enough to use Blast that aren't powerful enough to have it blow through a piddling 5 damage reduction.
>>47065828
Because spirits know about their Mage armor?
>>47065828
now you're implying everyone knows what armor a mage has
you keep trying to white room this shit and you don't know how half the game works and don't even know how to make a white room properly
>>47063451
It makes sense it's not on the nose, and it works.
Anyone who complains about this is only doing it so they can bitch, not because they have any legitimate complaint.
>>47065791
>pay 6 extra essence for your shotgun blast at rank 3
ok
Quick question. Anyone got any suggestions for good bans for a dog spirit or perhaps a dog / gluttony spirit?
>>47065848
What rank?
>>47065843
there's no real use for it unless you have a ton of mana or are a lesser spirit who doesn't have a massive power+finesse pool
anything over rank 2 is boderring on instantkill with blast
>>47065835
>>47065836
Any spirit pointing a Blast at you (again, as opposed to using Influences, servants, or literally any other Numina) to deal with you is doing so BECAUSE you weren't trivially wiped off the map.
It's not going to hold back unless it's categorically retarded. "Hmm, this guy walked through a bonfire / horde of dogs / a building falling on him without even slowing down. I'd better try the same amount of damage but with a numina instead."
>>47065854
2. making a familiar.
>>47065848
Cannot refuse food offered to it by someone it sees as "the master" or associates?
>>47065825
Just in general most games fall apart before becoming interesting or epic in scop.
>>47065880
Thats unfortunate. I just got done with a 3 year campaign. was great
>>47065840
The same could be leveled at most "B-but SJWs!" complaints in general
>>47065876
Not every spirit is smart or powerful enough to have servants.
Rank 1 and 2 spirits tend to be both stupid and direct.
>>47065876
blast is the first shot to use, it has the longest range, costs the cheapest, and does the most damage (because defense don't work)
why not just read a book before you start complaining here? seriously, any book
>>47065877
>>47065848
Bans: The most common ban borne by gluttony-spirits is
that they may not pass up an opportunity to consume a
weaker spirit, which can get them into serious trouble if
they offend a more potent spirit by devouring a member
of its brood. Other common bans include an inability to
refuse bargains when Essence is offered, an obsession with
certain “flavors” of Essence and an inability to forego at-
tempting to consume Essence when it is available, regard-
less of how much they have recently consumed.
Bans: Dog-spirits often are held under a ban that forbids
them from attacking any being that has once bested them
in battle. Other dog-spirits are forbidden from dealing
with those that have close ties to cat-spirits.
>>47065848
>>47065877
Cannot use it's numina unless it's absorbed it's rank in essence and bacon rashers that day
>>47065897
Rank 1-2 spirits also aren't a threat in general. You'll wipe them off the map before they could do significant damage regardless; Prime loses again.
>>47065904
So Prime armor's effect amounts to "cost a spirit 3 essence on your first encounter with them," even in your best case scenario? Wonderful.
>>47065947
>consumed, not absorbed
>essence OR bacon, not both
>>47065965
>Rank 1-2 spirits also aren't a threat in general. You'll wipe them off the map before they could do significant damage regardless; Prime loses again.
if you're a spirit mage, but everyone else is going to have trouble with them, especially since they tend to swarm
>>47065983
>if you're a spirit mage
Or a Prime Mage, since they can fuck ephemeral creatures up too.
>>47065965
Every mage can summon Supernal entities, guess what their attacks are made of.
>>47066013
>asking the retard to guess
please
>>47065947
this is silly and I like it.
Is it worth it to get the familiar merit if you're not going to get spirit arcana?
>>47066013
1) Supernal entities don't last long enough to be worthwhile soldiers. If your enemy is wasting that much time and mana, you've already got him.
2) Supernal entities CAST MAGIC. They are exactly as capable of indirect damage as Mages.
>>47066157
>free mana
>free sympathetic connection
>teach it Claim and free pet abomination
Sure, Familiars are great
>>47066198
should i get the 4 dot one or is 2 dot enough?
>>47066174
>If your enemy is wasting that much time and mana, you've already got him.
It costs 1 mana.
>implying the bound aren't a thing
>2) Supernal entities CAST MAGIC. They are exactly as capable of indirect damage as Mages.
and more likely to use itwith their lack of wisdom
>>47066320
It's an entire extra Rank for 2 merit dots, so it's bretty gud.
>>47066198
I think Dave mentioned once that a Familiar can't use Claim without ceasing to be a Familiar.
Pretty sure Claim ends all other Manifestation effects, since it creates an entirely new, non-Spirit being.
>>47066320
Depends what you want it for.
Rank 2 ups it's trait limits from 5 to 7, ups it's essence pool (which you can leech for mana) to 15, snags it extra numina (and numina make arcana look balanced) and another manifest option. It also upgrades your familiar's personality from "pet" to "sidekick", so you can have a deent convo with them when you're bored.
If you can spare the dots, the extra Rank is pretty fuggin sweet.
>>47063569
Im call you out on your BULLSHIT.
I started play CofD in 2E, because I couldn't figure the books in 1E.
While the 2E books are easy to read and understand.
Spellcasting was a fucking mess in 1E, now is simple to use and make.
>Temporal Summoning (Time •••)
Welp, it appears that all of my enemies are now sperm cells left out to dry.
>>47066427
>The entity has been bonded to a mage. It may use any other Manifestations freely, but is protected from Essence bleed
>can't
These are Mages we're talking about.
Can you apply a specific Reach effect more then once?
>>47066492
So Prime can enchant objects and weapons right? If I wanted to enchant say a gun what would it do? Does it just fire pure mana bolts or can I give it specific affects?
>>47066568
It does whatever you can imbue into it with the arcana you know.
Enchanting objects doesn't open any NEW effects, it just lets you stick a spell you could cast anyway onto (say) a sword.
>>47066568
You have to give it specific effects. If it's just Prime, it'll probably be something like 'counts as a mystical source of damage for all intents and purposes' or 'pierces through non-Prime mage armor'. Other things would depend on conjunctional arcana.
I feel so disappointed.
I went from hype to disappointment about halfway reading the book.
Like, a lot of the book is awesome. New magesight is cool, Mysteries and Opacity is cool, but...
Fate fucks with agency like nobody's business.
Life is now semi-worthless, even with the ability to have persistent Life spells on yourself.
The Duration chart makes casting nigh anything worthwhile for a decent time impossible. Fucking -10 for an indefinite spell, too.
Mages don't get to construct their own Wisdom, as was promised some way back. Instead we have basically the same shit as in 1e, except even fucking WORSE somehow. The only Code aspect of it is the Inuring, which is cool, but it's a cool topping on a shit sundae.
It's just so... underwhelming. I was so hyped for this book since fucking before Fall 2014 when it was still called Fallen World Chronicle, and it just... fails not even to impress, but to be as good as 1e was, even with 1e's horrible brokenness. You just can't do anything worthwhile until you're like 30-40 exp from the start, which you will get almost never since most games would die before that.
I'm not even angry, I'm just... sad.
>>47066684
Good, can you go kill yourself so we don't have to listen to it?
>>47066684
>The Duration chart makes casting nigh anything worthwhile for a decent time impossible. Fucking -10 for an indefinite spell, too.
>you get arcana-1 free steps up the duration chart on any spell
>one (free) reach to move to the advanced duration table
>chargen mage casting a path spell can make it last a week without even risking paradox
All the things you can whinge about, Duration shouldn't be one of them.
>>47066728
>you get arcana-1 free steps up the duration chart on any spell
Isn't that for Duration-primary spells only? I might have missed that. Everything else stands, though.
>>47066684
>Mages don't get to construct their own Wisdom
Wait what. when was this promised?
I've been hanging on the previews since day 1, and I can't recall that.
The only part of Wisdom that bothers me, is that acting high Wisdom is penalized by high wisdom, and acting low Wisdom is penalized by low Wisdom.
>>47066762
It's in the spell's primary factor, no matter what it is, whether it's Duration, Area, or (most usually) Potency.
>>47066798
Actually the free boost is potency or duration only
>>47066770
Some long time ago, before the blogs. I can't find it now, but a lot of people were hyped that you would be able to construct your own Sins ladder for your Wisdom.
Like a warrior-culture Wisdom where _not_ killing your enemy would net you a Wisdom sin, or an identity-mage Wisdom where acting out of your currently assumed persona is a wisdom hit, and inside it isn't even if it were a default wisdom hit.
The second one apparently got folded into the GotV Masque merit line, whereas the idea itself just poofed into the nether.
Changeling 2e question here:
A Fairest Windwing could look pretty much like an angel, right?
>>47066620
>>47066633
So say if I wanted it to fire silver bullets to fight werewolves I would use Prime and Matter? Or to enchant objects I dont even need Prime at all?
>>47066844
Or perhaps a majestic bird like creature. Like a Harpy but less ugly?
>>47066427
Actually I'm the person how first asked him about that. But in fact they are still your familiar.
>>47066901
I cant wait to play an Obrimos tbqhwyf. I never had a Mage group before and it looks like that would be fun.
>>47066904
If you just want to turn bullets into silver before firing them, you'd only need Matter 3 (weaving a metal into another metal), but you'll have to cast it for each batch of ammo you want to use.
If you wanted a gun that magically transmuted ANY ammo fired from it into silver, you'd need Matter 3 (for the spell) + Prime 4 (for the imbue item attainment).
>>47066948
Obrimos have gotten mad buffs in 2e. I look forward to ST-ing this.
Seems like Time is pretty busted. How are you supposed to deal with shit like getting Temporal Summon'd back into a baby if they have the attainment, and they go on to bash your skull in?
