>mage 2e
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>Pastebin
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>question
Is Mage 2e any good?
>>47052963
>Is Mage 2e any good?
Yes.
>By contrast, the Exarchs also direct Seers to protect humanity from existential threats, and renew the vault seals of ancient horrors called the Bound. Not even the Tyrants wish to rule a kingdom of ashes. More than once in history, this has required making common cause with the Diamond — primarily the Silver Ladder, but occasionally the Guardians of the Veil and the Mysterium.
[Need to know more intensifies]
So!
Am I seriously the only person who liked Beast?
>>47052963
Anybody have a PDF of those condition cards made for April Fool's last year?
>>47053027
People who like Beast aren't actually people so no.
>>47052963
>Is Mage 2e any good?
Clearly the answer can only be found by another thread full of bitching about Ichneumon.
>>47053038
...
OK. Why do people have such a problem with it?
The most glaring issues were fixed and the rest can be cleared up in other books.
Prime and Forces best Arcana.
Obrimos Master Ra.. eh.. Path.
>>47053071
Because it's unfocused as hell.
What do you DO in Beast?
>>47053102
By itself? Not much. You use it as a toolkit for crossover play, you use it to make antagonists, or you can give it to players who want to play something a little different in a chronicle.
>>47053045
Now let's talk about Baphomet! It's typical of Onyx Path's low test writers that all their characters are passively waiting for the arrival of the player characters to break the status quo but geez talk about missed opportunity. You got old titty mcgoathead a multimaster goetic lich who apparently hasn't been doing shit since dying except for trying to get the astral devil to stop grope him/her. You'd think she/he could at least find some time to go find his/her waifu/husbando in the astral realms or something.
>>47053071
The premise isn't that strong and the game's too much about resource management. If it'd have just been a straight up knock-off of the bygone bestiary I'd be jizzing all over it but as it stands its pretty meh
>>47053144
And that is exactly my problem with it.
You are a Beast. You have nothing to do.
But now let's stuff Beast. We have Mage to argue about.
Magic is broken AF with a Master being able to kill anyone with three successes.
>>47053027
>>47053071
>>47053144
I don't hate it. It's a bit disappointing, but has potential. It lacks focus, and Matt's game design beliefs leave much to be desired, but it's not terrible, just lackluster. I a good supplement can turn it around.
I don't need a crossover play toolkit for making antagonists. Hunter already exists, and it's easier to use.
>>47053162
Baphomet isn't waiting for you to do anything. They exist as a monster for you to fight. The way you break their Status Quo is with murder. That's what you do with Liches.
Although, if there's anyone who'd be stuck in a status quo rut, it's a lich.
>>47053185
>>47053184
>>47053162
I understand now.
Thank you.
Oh!
Recenty combed through a read through with quotes of M20.
I now have a newfound hatred and loathing of Phil "Satyros" Brucato.
>>47053185
But he/she doesn't do anything except be a loser in the Astral Realms. How can people go hunt monsters who don't even bother to be monstrous?
>>47053184
>Magic is broken AF with a Master being able to kill anyone with three successes.
How?
>>47053246
Mind Unmaking, for instance. Destroy someone's mind.
Use a Praxis. Exceptional Success on three successes.
One Exceptional Success option is "ignore Withstand".
>>47053184
Minds always broken. WoD is made for people with mindrape fetish.
>>47053261
>Mind Unmaking, for instance. Destroy someone's mind.
Not how the practices work.
>>47053273
Or Life unmaking. Stop them from Living.
Or Death making. Make them dead.
Or Time unmaking. Freeze them forever.
Or Space unmaking. Lock them in place forever.
Or Prime unmaking. Destroy their patterns.
Or Forces unmaking. Stop all movement.
>>47053294
>>47053226
Sounds like this will be a stupid thing that makes me angry, and will probably involve accusations of "pretentious".
Please don't continue.
>>47053232
She haunts dreams.
>>47053318
Frozen time is still time. Unmaking Time would mean removing someone from time entirely.
>>47053347
>Frozen time is still time. Unmaking Time would mean removing someone from time entirely.
Right! I was thinking way too conservatively.
What does Fate unmaking do?
>>47053347
Oh yeah that's impressive. Master of mind and best she/he/she/he/she/he/it can do is hang around like a creep in people's dreams. Changelings fresh off the boat from Arcadia can do that its not impressive
>>47053381
Makes you totally and utterly inconsequential even in the most minuscule way.
>>47053388
Look, you do some desperate things in a bid for immortality. If the choice is become a soulless dream monster or die the painful death of leprosy...
>>47053413
Fuck that shit though, I end up as some big titted goat man in the astral realms I'm gonna party so hard the Exarchs are going to have to come down to stop me.
**The real sweet lichdom though is the Bene Elohim, nothing stopping them from casting Alter Spirit on themselves and making the local Uratha freak the fuck out because they're like an Idigam but better**
So. Is it just me, or is Giant one of the best defensive merits when it comes to magic?
>>47053464
>Not being the triple threat of Lich/Banisher/Reaper while also having Bloodlines
Keep never reaching the Seventh Watchtower.
>>47053506
"So, if I get this right. You are a soul-eating monster, who can also summon the shades, and arms of ages-dead Vikings?"
>>47053524
>'When in doubt, just ashtray it.'
>>47053524
I meant the Tremere. Stygian Heralds were profoundly underwhelming to me when I was looking for a Moros Legacy.
>>47053506
>not being an Exarch
lol plebs
>>47053573
There is a Tremere House that does that.
Seo Hel.
>>47051855
>Hunting Ventrue just to rob their vaults filled with arcane artifacts and thousands of years worth of loot.
Oh god that sounds amazing.
>>47053601
Oh, awesome.
>>47053688
Or Hunting Seer storehouses. The Masks are obviously Relics. And the Aegis are clearly a Labyrinth for the Guardians, so you'd rob Seers.
>>47053787
So how do a gang of bank robbers join the Aegis Kai Doru? And what would the masks do?
I posted in the old thread like an idiot.
>>47051739 #
Had one of my players make a sacred prostitute and one of my stock NPCs is a self-styled love goddess. They're gonna be Decree of Heart no matter what, but any Guild can fit; if they's a honeypot then they're Maa-Kep, if they put mystic value into the transferent act of sex then they're Mesen-Nebu or Tef-Aabhi, etc.
>>47051855 #
I wrote them up as a Cult on the forums; Carnivale/Black List, a Conspiracy of professional thieves that wear the masks of Irem's sacred animals when they kill or steal.
>>47053848
They tried to rob an Aegis Labyrinth and were offered a job. The Masks obscure their identities supernaturally. Probably also give benefits similar to the Masque merit.
>>47053913
>you actually answered my dumb Oglaf question
You're not bad.
>>47053690
Yeah. They draw upon the souls they have bound to themselves, and create weapons and tools from their personas. When using these tools, they use the wielder's skill.
>>47053913
>Conspiracy
What was there special endowments?
>>47053951
Thats good I like it
Imbued Items look like shit.
Arcana rating of the spell + wielder's Gnosis.
"Here sleepwalker, take this magic ring, it'll shoot magical fire at whatever you point it at. It will protect you!"
Four dice.
>>47053981
I think he means in the traditional sense of the world. Although either way the magical masks would be obvious.
>>47053913
Animal masks sounds more like Hotline Miami, although you could easily merge the two into one concept.
>>47053994
You're using them wrong.
>>47053994
It's actually worse. Since each use requires at least one mana, it'll only work a few times.
As with Mage 1e, your average pistol or rifle if often far more deadly than lightening and fireballs, and without most of the supernatural complications.
Does anyone know of somewhere I can watch a short/small cWoD game online? my Youtube-fu fails me. I prefer with video, so I can see the dice pools in action, but a recorded audio session would work too. I just want to see and get a feel for the game beyond just reading the rules.
I plan to run a game for my group next year. They haven't had the best of experiences with more gothic games, and are not sure about the system. So, I would like to go in better prepared. I'll also probably try a Roll20 game later in the year.
>>47053951
You say Mummy and I try to be there.
>>47053981
Conspiracy as in "Cult type that gains bonuses to Grasp" not "Hunter group with Endowments."
>
Cult (8, Conspiracy): Reach 0, Grasp 5, Obedient, Paranoid
>Mystery Cult Initiation:
1: Gain a Larceny Specialty of your choosing.
2: Gain the Contacts (International Crime) Merit at one dot.
3: Gain a dot in one of the following Skills: Subterfuge, Intimidate, Firearms
4: Gain the Resources Merit at three dots.
5: Your character is gifted one of the magical jackal masks of the Carnivale, imposing a -3 penalty on all mundane and supernatural attempts to connect her to acts and crimes committed while wearing it. This penalty does not apply while wearing the mask; rather, it makes her difficult to track down once it has been removed, usually after a heist or assassination.
>>47054049
Yeah, I'm new to Mage and might be misreading, but it seems like if you can achieve something without magic, you're better off doing it that way, and magic only excels at things it's simply impossible/excessively impractical to do mundanely.
>>47054051
wait theres rules for Cults now? I am confused. I thought we were talking about Hunters
I'd've liked a shoutout to atypical path configurations in the DM section
The Circle of Degrees and Banishing and Summoning from the storytellers guide were pretty cool
>>47054066
>>47053994
2e especially is a game where being an occultist is more useful than being a D&D wizard. Pew pew isn't the useful thing, ritual and ceremony is the useful thing.
In 1e, ritual and ceremony were only used to break the game with stacking Potency, while in 2e they're the default.
>>47054078
He made them a Mummy Cult.
>>47054066
That's a big theme of Mage, yes.
Do stuff normally, back it up with magic.
>>47054049
Ah well. That's just the Merit. If one does them oneself they seem to be "seal this spell in an object".
>>47054089
>I'd've liked a shoutout to atypical path configurations in the DM section
What do you mean?
>>47054129
>2e especially is a game where being an occultist is more useful than being a D&D wizard. Pew pew isn't the useful thing, ritual and ceremony is the useful thing.
Sure, that's more in like with the WoD. Still, it's disappointing to look over Forces and see spells to hurl thunderbolts like Zeus and realize they suck and aren't ever worth it.
>>47054132
>Do stuff normally, back it up with magic.
So it seems. A bit disappointing. Maybe Mage isn't for me.
>>47054129
>Mummy Cult
Why?
>>47054150
>So it seems. A bit disappointing. Maybe Mage isn't for me.
Of course, this could mean "Conjure a sword, smite them with it".
There is plenty of mysticism in the game.
>>47054150
>Not being a bodyguard for your Archmage boss
>Not enchanting your AR to fire magic missiles
>Not enchanting your plate carrier vest to repair after every bullet impact.
>Not ripping up pieces of concrete to create cover
God I really want to play a militant Mage campaign.
>>47054221
...Damn it. Yes.
So do I.
>>47054221
You can do all that. Enchantments that bolster mundane activities seem ideal. But it's not what I really think about normally when I hear the word mage.
>>47054265
you got a skype or something? I need to find more people to play WoD with
>>47054272
I get what you mean but I like magic when theres a touch of realism. It makes all the crazy shit that happens much more impactful.
>>47054139
Banishing and summoning for instance, did away with weak arcana, and instead split a bonus amongst Practices between the 'Banishing' and 'Summoning' (or preceding and following) Arcana in front of and behind your Strong Aracana
The degrees approach was a general freedom to choose two strong and a weak arcana
both ways shortly described the metaphysics or culture of those Path changes and how they might satisfy different approaches or expectations from play, so it would be a good fit for a GM section
>>47054278
I do. But three games a week is too much already...
>>47054331
I only have 1 regular game and 1 thats irregular. I get what you mean tho 3 is usually my hard limit too. Still want to add anyway? Can always use more /tg/ folks to talk too.
Skype name in nametag. Everyone else can add me too. Just let me know your from /tg/
>>47054349
what kind of name is rhyss anyway
australians are weird
>>47054278
anyone who lives in Sydney is welcome to check out my real life group
Currently running FFG Star Wars but have been writing up a mage chronicle in anticipation of the release
>>47054391
I am aussie too but in SA add me on skype bro
>>47054150
Thunderbolts are great. So are rocket propelled grenades.
There's a reason you shouldn't use either under most circumstances.
>>47054151
Man likes Mummy.
>>47054326
I'm not sure what you mean.
>>47054411
alternatives to the 5 paths, Mastigos, Moros, Acanthus etc
Does Aggravated damage still ignore armour/durability in 2e?
>>47054422
But why would that be in the corebook? That's more a thing for a Storyteller's Guide. Or even a Player's Guide, but the Paths are more set in stone than the Auspices or Clans.
>>47054396
yeah okay, I'll probably manage it much later today
Can Temporal Summoning (Time 3) un-supernatural a supernatural with Temporal Sympathy? If you can bring the dead back to life by overwriting them with a past self, surely you could overwrite a vampire with their self before their Embrace.
>>47054151
Mummy has rules for having a subservient Cult
I wrote up several examples, one of which being the Totally Not Payday Crew, and described them both as a Cult for a Mummy to own and as a Mystery Cult to join.
>>47054441
You could try. Whether or not it would work would depend on whether or not your ST is using Requiem vamps, and whether or not they've read Imperial Mysteries, and know that bit about all the splats having their own patrons in the Ascension War
Do mages get the easiest "lel Defense against firearms" in the game now?
>>47054459
Celerity?
Being a werewolf?
>>47054459
Pretty sure the easiest firearm defense is still Werewolves, who defend against them by default in any non-Hishu form.
But Mages do have fantastic defense with Acceleration.
>>47054463
Fortitude?
Do Bullets still count as Bashing to vampires?
>>47054432
I'm thinking of analogues such as making up bloodlines in Vampire
a counterquestion would be, why not?
The core book offers rules alternatives for core game mechanics, and it wouldn't detract with the default presentation
So! Thinking of siccing this guy on my players tomorrow when we run our VTM Chronicle. What do you think?
Too OP for neonates?
>>47054463
Celerity isn't actually Defense against firearms.
>>47054491
Dots of Celerity penalize Firearms attacks, which is basically what defense is.
>>47054472
All attacks are downgraded now. As long as shit isn't supernatural in origin, it does Bashing.
>Mystery Cult Influence (•••, ••••, or •••••)
>Effect: Your character has influence over a Mystery Cult (see p. 106) without actually being a subordinate member. Perhaps your character is a “power behind the throne” or even worshiped as a deity. Your character benefits from the same level of Mystery Cult Initiation, without having to be tied to the cult. This means fewer responsibilities to the cult, plausible deniability if they’re revealed, and the ability to step away at any time.
Shit, son, what in the flying fuck is this?
You can have 10 dots of merits for 5 dots with absolutely no downsides!
>>47054491
>>47054497
It takes a Celerity + Auspex devotion to get defence against firearms.
It's one of the best devotions in the game.
>>47054517
Are devotions even around in Vampire 2e?
I need to take my name off I keep forgetting too.
>>47054498
Huh really? I understood the logic of Bullets counting as bashing because the wounds are not severe enough to cripple a vampire and you cant kill a vampire due to blood loss or organ failure. But something like an axe can gouge out flesh or remove limbs so they are more dangerous.
Seems weird that its now Bashing as well. It also makes taking a blade to fight a vampire useless so might as well take a bat or sledge hammer
>>47054484
Increase his appearance to 5 because Vicissitude lets you do that for free.
What Koldunic Sorcery path is it? Path of Fire is the most broken shit.
Not sure why he has Protean, I mean it's useful but Viscisstude 4 is way better because raw strength increase.
>>47053084
>Obrimos
>dat rainbow fire
Is it because he's a Silver Ladder or is the Celestial Fire just naturally gay as fuck?
>>47054508
>Absolutely no downsides
Except, yknow, having to manage a cult
The moment your sleeper cult decides its time they all drink poison, because the guy below you said so and they don't know you exist, is the moment you gain 5 merit dots to redistribute elsewhere.
>>47054540
Did not know he could take appearance 5 for free.
Protean is for a combo discipline.
This is V20
He does have Path of Fire.
>>47054498
Extensive full-body trauma and the like is still Lethal - getting run over by a bulldozer is going to paste a vamp, not bruise them.
>>47054534
Blades cut tendons, destroy veins and arteries, cut flesh.. all of which Vampires don't really care about. They're dead all over.
Everything is Bashing to a vampire unless it's a bane, supernatural damage, or gross physical trauma.
>>47054525
Well. Yeah. That's why I said it. Quicken Sight.
>>47054534
Here is the Rationale:
unds that would easily kill even the hardiest of humans.
Kindred take only bashing damage from many sources that
would normally cause lethal damage to humans. This includes
most non-supernatural weapons. A sword slices through a
Kindred body the way it would a human; it’s just that vampires
don’t have the same need for stable flesh, working organs, and
intact blood vessels. A mortal whose viscera splay across a city
street is most certainly doomed, whereas a vampire recovers
after only minor inconvenience and a small investment of Vitae.
>>47054545
He is a Mysterium actually.
>>47054481
Bloodlines' equivalent is Legacies.
Also, the corebook doesn't really offer many rules for alternative game styles. It doesn't have the space for it.
>>47054491
>>47054517
>Persistent: Add the vampire’s dots in Celerity to her Defense, or to her Dodge roll when defending actively. If a Firearms attack denies her normal Defense, the attacker still takes a penalty on his attack equal to the vampire’s dots in Celerity. A character must still be aware of incoming attacks to defend against them.
>When activated, Quicken Sight lasts for a turn. The vampire can examine the details on fast-moving items, and respond to things outside the normal human spectrum. She can read multiple pages of text in three seconds. She can apply her Defense to ranged attacks, and can benefit from aiming instantly
Celerity still provides Defense against Firearms. Quicken Sight just gives you more than just your Celerity dots.
>>47054569
>He is a Mysterium actually.
Soit's not a choice & Prime effects are inherently fruity?
>>47054549
>Except, yknow, having to manage a cult
No, that's Mystery Cult Initiation 5 (cult leader).
Mystery Cult INFLUENCE lets you be hands off.
>>47054459
werewolves get defense against firearms as a basic template ability.
awoo~
>>47054580
You'd still lose the merit if the cult ceased to exist, m8
>>47054575
that space is limited is fair, but the mage GM section does propose a list of alternative rules and alternative paths aren't comprehensive to describe and would have been nice to see in that spot too. Nothing stopping me or anyone from pulling them from the Chroniclers Guide I found them in.
>>47054583
Werewolves are still the best splat. I want to see a Werewolf vs a Mage.
>>47054566
>>47054569
Eh I guess. It just feels a bit too over powered now. I mean being resistant to guns was already fucking nuts but now pretty much all forms of damage? And you can regenerate? Damn son.
>>47054589
But if the ST kills your cult when the merit explicitly says you don't need to be involved in t day to day, then they're being a dick for no reason
>>47054561
Okay well Path of Fire 2 is literally the most powerful power in the game. Combined with Path of spirits, it lets you murder people any where.
Seriously, it does agg fire damage per success. And it's levels, not fucking dice but levels. You will kill players if you toss that thing around.
If you really want to go full Dio, I'd recommend dropping Path of Fire for Viscisstude 5 and use this Vis 5 power from DAV20 instead of the V20 because the V20 one is terrible.
>>47054603
Vampires are much more durable now than before, but they've still got all their classic weaknesses, and can be overwhelmed through sheer volume of damage.
>>47054608
The poison-drinking example is maybe not a great one; the point is, the cult is still a vulnerability that could be attacked or manipulated to fuck with the Mage in question.
>>47054625
>the cult is still a vulnerability that could be attacked or manipulated to fuck with the Mage in question
How, the whole point of the new merit is that you have no ties to it except all the bennies you get from being a disinterested pseudo-leader. If you can be affecteted by the cult then you have the wrong merit.
I get that he's tried to replicate the relationship one of the character's in his AP had with their cults, but the merit is poorly worded
>>47054534
>>47054603
A sledgehammer will do more to the human body than a sword.
"Blunt=less damage" is a stupid RPG convention.
Yes, damned walking corpses animated by magic and the stolen lifeblood of the living are resistant to physical trauma, including stabbing or cutting.
>>47054608
You still need to run your damned cult. The merit is about being a cult leader. If you don't be the cult leader, you lose access to the cult.
>>47054620
I tried to make Tzimisce in Requiem 2e and the way Disciplines are set up in Masquerade is just so ridiculous. When you need to be even more of an ancient blood god just to fly...
I made Zulo form by giving two additional Protean Aspects and no time limit.
>>47054652
Because, even if you aren't tied to it directly, your connections to the cult stop giving you any benefits if a Seer purees them all behind your back, because everyone's dead.
>>47054668
>A sledgehammer will do more to the human body than a sword.
Sometimes. The thing is, the human body is quite resilient in some fashions and quite weak in others. It also depends on location struck. Blunt trauma transmits a lot of force, but a sword can penetrate. I'd rather get hit with a hammer in the stomach than stabbed in the stomach.
But most of the time, yeah, blunt damage is deadlier than cuts.
>>47054668
You don't need them to fly, you need them to summon the wings on demand. It's entirely possible to have the wings without being in the form. The form literally is just for the purpose. And that it does Agg damage and gives more strength.
Also the Gargoyle Flight Discipline does exactly that too, and anyone can learn that too.
>>47054668
>A sledgehammer will do more to the human body than a sword.
I would disagree and it depends where you are hit. Hit in the chest? Broken rib cage and more then likely internal bleeding.
With a sword? Punctured lungs and heart. Massive bleeding wounds too.
>>47054620
ooh!
Did not realize that Path of Fire was broken as shit.
I want to give my players a challenge not to grind them into dust. (There's only two guys who've actually stuck with it, ones a Ravnos the others a Toreador. The toreador is also a former serial killer, the Ravnos has amnesia and is more focused on mental and social things)
I put Dio as his concept cause I really couldn't think of anything else to put there after doing the stats
>>47054700
Yeah but it'd be a bitch of a time getting a Gargoyle that can even teach it to you let alone one that's willing.
>>47054696
>>47054707
I'd rather get hit in the arm with a sword than have it crushed by a hammer, because unlike in the movies a sword won't chop off your arm. It also won't crush your ribs so badly that your own skeleton punctures your soft fleshy internals.
>>47054700
It seemed like a waste of a Discipline level. And there was firebreathing, too, for some reason?
>>47054668
>You still need to run your damned cult. The merit is about being a cult leader. If you don't be the cult leader, you lose access to the cult.
Again, that's Mystery Cult INITIATION 5.
>>47054772
You don't need to be directly involved in the cult. You still need to be involved with it period. You don't get your Mystery Cult Influence Merit if you aren't actually Influencing your Mystery Cult.
>>47054709
>Did not realize that Path of Fire was broken as shit.
It's stupidly broken. Avoid at all cost except for BBEG tier shit.
>>47054724
>Yeah but it'd be a bitch of a time getting a Gargoyle that can even teach it to you let alone one that's willing.
Hellishly easier than you think. Just need to find one in your local Sabbat group and pay him a boon. Hard to get, but not impossible.
But like I said, you can just flesh craft yourself wings that work completely fine.
>>47054759
>It seemed like a waste of a Discipline level. And there was firebreathing, too, for some reason?
The fire breathing is a relic of the older editions, the new shit is turning into a dragon that turns you into a fucking unstoppable monster. The marauder form is amazingly good though once you get it just for the wings.
So a Gnosis 5 Mage rolls 3 paradox dice PER Reach but Mana only removes 1 dice per point?
>>47054668
>You still need to run your damned cult. The merit is about being a cult leader. If you don't be the cult leader, you lose access to the cult.
You are BACKING the cult. Not leading it.
Sure, you need the cult, but it's lot less than Mystery Cult Initiation •••••
Geez these Mage Armors are beefy.
>>47054843
You're influencing it.
>>47054823
>The fire breathing is a relic of the older editions, the new shit is turning into a dragon that turns you into a fucking unstoppable monster. The marauder form is amazingly good though once you get it just for the wings.
I meant "this power does not feel like it is impressive or interesting enough to be a new level of the Discipline". And the impression I got was that you need it for the wings. It comes with a few other benefits, but they're ultimately pretty minor for the seventh level of a Discipline. Isn't it a little unnecessary to need 7 dots before you can do aggravated? Especially considering the other things Tzimisce can do.
>>47054922
Eh. And expensive.
But thankfully they don't take up spell slots any more.
>>47054934
6th dot one, but yes Vic is known to fall off hard after level 5 because level is mastery of flesh crafting. I mean, each dot also lowers the difficulty of flesh crafting rolls but still it is known to suck compared to Protean which becomes amazing at 6+ dots
>>47054953
You consider one mana for a scene expensive?
So, auto-kills at 4 and 5 dots aside, mages are actually kinda weak now, right?
>>47054966
They don't seem weak to me at all, but I don't have a previous edition Mage baseline to compare them to. They can do a lot of things nobody else can and with a bit of preparation seem likely to fuck anything else's day up.
>>47054962
And one mana for every few attacks, yes.
>>47054966
I mean, Demons can auto-kill at creation... So I would say needing 5 dots to do it is pretty weak.
>>47054980
Weaker in the sense they can now do anything rather than everything, like the previous edition
>>47054982
>And one mana for every few attacks, yes.
No, it says Mage Armor remains active all scene.
>>47054955
I'm tired, and can't count at the best of times, much less 3am.
For my Tzimisce thing (that I need to rewrite), I'm honestly proud of my Viccissitude rules, even if they need polishing. My version of Tzimisce (which again, definitely need a rewrite after Chris tore it apart and made me realize they were "Double Ventrue") focuses more on the way I keep seeing them talked about, as extreme bodymodders and artists with freaky tastes. Their Clan Discipline is Protean, but they call it Viccissitude, and it tends to take different forms.
Also, I wonder if I should make them Daeva instead of Ventrue...
>>47054966
They're incredibly powerful. More so than before, really. It just takes actual effort, which is a good thing.
They feel more like wizards than superpsychics.
>>47055023
Not the good ones.
>>47055059
All the good ones do. Some of them allow you to spend 1 mana in response to an attack optionally for even more benefit, but the base stuff remains.
Fate, for instance, is a scenelong +Fate to Defense, and allows you to apply Defense vs Firearms. If you successfully Dodge an attack, you then add Fate to your next attack as bonus weapon rating.
But you don't have to. You still get the buffed Defense.
>Fifth-degree masters are vanishingly rare anyway
What is this bullshit?
>>47055098
Wait wait wait...
So you can get the already annoyingly high Defense of Wits/Dex + Athletics, and throw dots in an arcana on top of it?
We already talked about the new defense edging on high in these threads before, and I was okay with the explanation of why that typically isn't the case... but this sounds... annoying.
>>47055124
Reasonable.
>>47055130
Completely true.
Mages get bullshit high Defense and are basically untouchable by anything but supernatural powers.
>>47055177
>the magic people need to be targeted by other magic people
I know right, like, what the heck guys
>>47055130
>So you can get the already annoyingly high Defense of Wits/Dex + Athletics, and throw dots in an arcana on top of it?
Mages are beefy, yes. 15 Defense once you get the relevant traits persistently.
>>47055209
>magic must defeat magic
Yet again.
>>47055213
Are you suggesting a sleeper could kill a werewolf or Vampire any easier without magic?
>>47055237
Probably, yeah.
>>47055209
While that sounds well and good on paper, I think this is sort of a worrying trend overall in OP's products. It gets to the point where the mundane gets mooked way too easily.
Yeah mages should REALLY be afraid of bumping into some abyssal creature of doom, but that doesn't mean they should be able to walk into a room of angry guys with shotguns, and be like 'eh, bunch of normies, nothing bad could possibly happen!' and start dancing a jig.
In the 1st edition books, often 'Humans' would be listed as one of the main antagonists for every splat, because if you screw up, if you don't keep the secret of your splat, and humans wise up... hunters or not, they could be a thorn in your side or even get you killed just out of their natural ignorance and fear.
But now creeps can often just snap their fingers and mortals drop dead, or worse.
Guys, I don't think that the solution to the "Mages are almighty Batmen" problem of 1st ed should've been to make them useless.
>>47055237
It's definitely easier to kill vampires than mages or werewolves.
>>47055266
Well, these high Defense ratings do require you build toward them. And even then, Mage regeneration isn't the best from what I can see, so if a group of guys opens fire, even if only a couple of them hit, that's some pain.
They're not like Werewolves who, so long as they don't die, will be absolutely fine in a couple hours at no cost.
>>47053027
I like it.
>Your character’s Signature Nimbus is particularly overbearing. Whenever a character scrutinizes her Signature Nimbus with Mage Sight, he’s subject to the effects of her Immediate Nimbus and its corresponding Tilt
What sort of jackass would take this merit.
>>47053334
The always is italicized here. I think that means you can't ignore Withstand with an exceptional success with them. Still, with that much magic you could do plenty of stuff that would be the equivalent of death, so it doesn't really matter.
Wait, so you only roll once to cast any spell. By default your spell takes one interval of your ritual casting time (3 hours to 20 mins), unless you use a Reach (which you get for free from Arcarnum rating) to cast instantly. Or you can have your ritual interval recur in exchange for bonuses to your dice pool.
Right?
And if I have 3 in my Arcarnum and my spell has a Duration as the primary factor, I can Reach (again free) once to push it into advanced duration, then if I take no penalties from it I get to increase it from one scene to one week without penalty or cost.
Right?
>>47055490
>(3 hours to 20 mins)
3 hours to 20 TURNS
>>47055534
Yeah, my bad.
But the rest is right, yeah?
proximi seem cool as fuck now. how bad would it be/how much shit would i get if i uncap the number of dots of blessings they can learn?
>>47055610
Wth, is 30 not enough for you man?
My real question is, why only one example family? There was only the one right?
>>47055631
yes, 30 is not enough. i must be able to get every possible blessing i could have access to if i poured infinite xp into it. Also it means i can just grab blessings as i need/want within the constraints without having to decide on a complete list of blessings i'm stuck with at chargen.
yeah it's thin on the example families.
>5 Reach: Summon an Abyssal entity of Rank 2
>If the Paradox roll that inflicted this Condition rolled an exceptional success, she gains the Open Condition instead.
>(Requires Open Condition) By spending 2 Essence, the entity adds the Fettered Condition to itself
>>47054498
Targeted attacks to the head still does lethal to vamps.
>>47055770
Why would their Brain matter?
>>47055770
It does? Looking at the rules on p. 90 I can't see a word about that.
>>47054517
Yeah, for one vitae per round. It's far and away the most costly firearms defense ability. Not to mention that only Mekhet will be able to get it right off the bat. Every other clan is looking at several sessions worth of exp before they can get it.
I just had a really strange idea for something to do with the Dead Wolves...Give them branches in the Mekhet and the Nossies. With Disciplines you get the three from you parent clan plus an additional discipline from one of the other clans in the Dead Wolves. The Devotion layout for the bloodline is pretty weird as well; The devotions in the first tier are all centered around your fourth Discipline, so the minimum number of them is 9 (3 for each parent Clan and three within those for the possible fourth disciplines). In the second tier it focuses on the Clan-specific disciplines, so there are at least 3 of them (Nossie+Mekhet, Mekhet+Gangrel, Gangrel+Nossie), the final devotion requires all three Clan-specific Disciplines to work and there is only one of it.
Now that all of the Devotion jargon is out of the way, lets talk about the weaknesses of the Bloodline; Gangrel become more likely to Frenzy around the phase of the moon the coincides with the time of their embrace, Mekhet have the Bane of Silver, and Nossies start with a number of random Wolfblooded Tells equal to their Humanity.
So.. if a spell has Primary factor Potency, then that's practically extra successes, only that they don't count towards Exceptional Success, right?
>>47055277
>Guys, I don't think that the solution to the "Mages are almighty Batmen" problem of 1st ed should've been to make them useless.
>useless
Read the Yantra section then come back
>>47055941
I think so.
For example: You have Forces 4, Gnosis 3, and try to shoot a Thunderbolt at someone. You have one free reach, so you use that one to upgrade to Advanced Range, which is Sensory.
There is no talk about it being Withstood, so you just roll 7 dice.
And let's say that gives you two successes, then you deal 6 Lethal to the guy.
"This allows the mage to create Extreme Environments of nearly any kind up to Level 5"
Holy hell! I thought they only went up to 4. What is 5? Instant death?
>>47056011
Every turn maybe? that's fucking brutal
>Supernatural beings like mages, vampires, or demons do not add their Supernatural Tolerance trait to Withstand a spell.
.....fucking mage supremacy
>>47056073
Well. Does anyone add their Supernatural Tolerance to Resisted rolls?
No. And that's just dice penalties.
>>47055490
you get penalties for increasing it from one scene to one week.
>>47056094
>After penalties have been applied for the desired spell factors, the player may move the primary factor up its chart a number of steps equal to the character’s rating in the spell’s highest Arcanum minus one.
>For example, a Forces spell with a primary spell factor of Duration would last for 5 turns when cast by a mage with her Forces Arcanum rated at 3 and a –2 penalty to her casting roll.
>This advancement is voluntary — mages don’t always choose to cast at full power.
They get freebie steps = arcarnum-1, on top of any they paid for with reach
>+1 Reach: The subject’s ephemeral form is so refined she can cast this spell and become immaterial even in realms where Twilight normally doesn’t exist.
>sweating_Demons.jpg
I'm curious about how effective a mage is when caught with their pants down. Let's run some sample starting mage powers against an angry charging Gauru. I know it's a bit unfair on the mage since it means the werewolf has already turned to the war form but it's a bit of a worse case scenario.
Framework: You have (Arcana) at 3 and Gnosis 1. That gives you 2 Yantras. The Gauru will reach you in 1 round, so you have 1 mana available to spend.
Forces: Invisibility won't help much as the werewolf can smell you. Gravitic Supremacy seems a worse choice than just using Control Gravity. So, Control Gravity on the area the Gauru is in. It's also 2 dots so I have 2 free Reach rather than the 1 with Gravitic Supremacy.
I have base 4 dice. 1 Reach goes straight on Instant cast, the second on being able to target at range.
Now the tricky bit. I need to up the scale to suit the werewolf Size 7. Either I eat a -4 penalty with regular scale or I spend a reach and -2 with advanced scale. I desperately need dice here so I'm going to do the latter and whack the entire parking lot between it and me.
Fuck, it's primary spell factor is Potency but Potency doesn't DO anything with this spell. I have to eat another penalty for boosting duration. I can make it last for a few rounds if I lose more dice. But I will instead use another Reach and make it last a scene.
Ok so I have 2 dice, let's say up to 3 with one of my yantra.s
I have gone 2 Reach over my limit but I have a dedicated magical tool so -2.
I am rolling 3 dice and a Paradox chance die. If I get any successes, that werewolf is bobbing in the air for an hour and can't do anything about it. On the other hand this is a large area and a Sleeper will soon spot it so I don't actually have an hour. Either I've brought a gun with silver bullets at this point or it is time to make my escape.
>>47055980
I think you just deal damage equal to the spell's Potency, you don't add extra successes to the damage the spell does. So you do 4 lethal.
You only get one Yantra reflexively - it would take two turns to cast your example spell.
>>47056136
So what you're saying is that a chargen Mage caught completely unawares can totally negate a charging Werewolf in one action?
Phew! I started reading your pot and for a sec I was worried they'd made Mages less supreme. thank goodness for that.
>>47056136
>If I get any successes, that werewolf is bobbing in the air for an hour and can't do anything about it.
Just like playing D&D 3.5 with Reverse Gravity.
>>47056127
oh shit i missed that. sick!
>>47056136
So even in a worst case scenario, a new Mage can incapacitate a werewolf in one go with reasonable odds of success.
>>47056154
So.. Before Mastery you literally can not kill a grown man with a single spell? That's kind of lame.
I suppose Mage needed nerfing, but this bad?
>>47056184
Well, unless the Werewolf has 'Anything he can throw' or 'The upside down werewolf is now charging along the roof'. Then the mage might be in shit.
>>47056166
Oh yeah. So I'm rolling 2 dice. That's, what, ~50% chance of pulling it off? Not bad.
Still, I don't really have any way of hurting the thing with Forces, and I'm in serious trouble if Sleepers are around.
I'd still take a 50% chance of being able to escape freely, though, even with those risks.
>>47056205
direct damage spells are the least effective murder tools mages have at their disposal. plenty of other ways to kill someone.
Use a fate compelling spell to make someone crash their car after an all-nighter with no sleep.
>>47056154
...man, that makes 'Throwing Fireballs' really not an impressive option.
I guess it's better to just go Mind and have him eat his gun.
>>47056223
Yeah but for Forces, it kinda SHOULD be good at doing damage.
That's kinda Force's thing.
>>47056205
You can take dice penalties to increase your Potency.
The Arcana 4 adept needs to take -6 to do 7 lethal. If he is Arcana 4 Gnosis 4 and a yantra he is rolling 3 dice to click his fingers and instant take down a normal human being if any successes come up.
Rotes are where it gets very nasty.
>>47056231
Yeah, direct damage spells are pathetic. Mages can easily kill people, but they won't do it by hurling lightning.
>>47053184
To be fair mages are supposed to be broken. If you read any other splat every supernatural is godly afraid of them.
Also 5 dots in arcana means you're one of the most powerful mages in the world if the 1 to 5 dot scale still holds up.
The downside is you're always a squishy human that can be taken out by a speeding vehicle if they're not looking the right way.
>>47056248
>The downside is you're always a squishy human
This is the worst argument against Mage supremacy because magic means anything dangerous to humans stops being an issue
>>47056243
Well, that abates basically all my interest in mage.
Never really played it in the 1e but it feels kinda pathetic when you need to be 'The absolute grand master of force' to do as much as a human with a Molotov cocktail.
>>47056248
>that can be taken out by a speeding vehicle if they're not looking the right way.
There isn't much in WoD that can take the ramming rules and live.
>>47056255
I'm just saying other supernaturals have innate regenerative abilities or some passive effects.
Fuck it though, mages are broken and I think that's what they're supposed to be so let wizards reign supreme.
>>47053334
God forbid mage players actually need to interact with the combat rules.
I mean, they could have honestly just have made 'I snuff out a life' high damage and it would have worked fine. Yeah, some things could survive it but you can't expect it to be as easy to snuff out the life of a fly as a werewolf.
>>47056258
You don't. You take roll penalties to increase the potency beyond your basic, letting you rain fire from the sky over an entire village
Yantras include throwing up your arms and shouting mystical gibberish or waving your magical staff around, and these give you bonuses / negate the above penalties.
>>47056011
>"This allows the mage to create Extreme Environments of nearly any kind up to Level 5"
>Holy hell! I thought they only went up to 4. What is 5? Instant death?
Have you ever been to Detroit?
>>47056317
Wouldn't the roll penalties make it much harder for the lightning bolt/fireball to actually hit the target?
>>47056349
If you spend reach they can't avoid it.
Am I the only person who's noticed that healing with Life was badly nerfed?
You now need Life 4 to heal lethal damage, when in 1e in was Life 2 or 3, for yourself and others respectively, Healing bashing, at best a minor inconvenience, requires Life 3.
>>47056349
The roll determines if you cast the spell or it fizzles. The spell, if cast, automatically hits the target.
Inless you intentionally choose to make it an aimed spell, where you roll to hit, but nobody would ever do this.
>>47056349
No. Either the mage spends a Reach to cast at sensory range and it auto-hits with no defense allowed, or the spell is "thrown" using Gnosis + Athletics/Firearms if it is successfully cast.
The penalties to increase Potency only apply to the roll to generate the effect, not the roll to throw it at the target.
>>47056372
>not spend Reach for Sensory targeting
>nobody would ever do this.
That's not true. The roll to hit if thrown isn't too difficult, and the Reach could sometime be far more productively spent on things like Advanced Scale for more targets or larger area of effect (or Size for very large targets like buildings, semi trucks and rampaging giant monsters).
>>47056361
>>47056372
Oh. That's...interesting.
Combat sounds like a clusterfuck in Mage with all 'Can't miss/instant-kill' available.
>>47056279
Unless you're a Changeling. Hope you like your aggravated damage and no innate regeneration.
>>47056435
Being Changeling is Suffering.
>>47056422
Which is why Mage society is founded on prison justice - if you use your instant death magic to kill someone, one of their friends will use their instand death magic on you in reprisal, and then one of your friends will etc. etc. So the best bet is to be more subtle and under-handed when dealing with your peers.
But it's also why Mages are supreme, since nothing but another Mage can threaten or challenge them in any meaningful way
>>47056449
>But it's also why Mages are supreme, since nothing but another Mage can threaten or challenge them in any meaningful way
Right. I think I'll pass on Mage then. It really doesn't sound like a very fun game for a group that likes a good mix of social, investigation and combat.
>>47056214
>>47056172
I think Unchained qualifies to break him free of that.
>>47056136
>Now the tricky bit. I need to up the scale to suit the werewolf Size 7. Either I eat a -4 penalty with regular scale or I spend a reach and -2 with advanced scale. I desperately need dice here so I'm going to do the latter and whack the entire parking lot between it and me.
See >>47056127
With Forces 3 you can move two steps up the scale chart for free, so Size 5, 6 & 7 targets all effectively cost the same (ie. no penalty)
>>47056449
>since nothing but another Mage can threaten or challenge them in any meaningful way
Eh, Blood Sorcery is about as powerful as mage magic, without the limiting factors of paradox, unbelief, limited number of spells that can be sustained, it can't really be countered, etc. Nothing stops you from animating armies of gargoyles, siphoning infinitesimal amounts of blood from huge swathes of the city so that you can feed yourself and all your homies for free in utter safety, breaking all the recording devices in town if there's a supernatural emergency threatening the Masquerade, etc. etc.
>>47056462
>Right. I think I'll pass on Mage then. It really doesn't sound like a very fun game for a group that likes a good mix of social, investigation and combat.
I thought that was literally what Mage was all about..
>>47056248
>If you read any other splat every supernatural is godly afraid of them.
Not really. The other splats don't give them any particular reverence, and the Pure outright hunt them down whenever possible.
The mages are unstoppable meme is almost entirely based off 1e's broken as hell extended casting system, and 1e Mage's own setting isn't even written with this assumption in mind.
>>47056279
Mages have innate regeneration too.
>>47056514
>The mages are unstoppable meme is almost entirely based off 1e's broken as hell extended casting system, and 1e Mage's own setting isn't even written with this assumption in mind.
Yet here we are in the 2e era and they're still better than everything else
>>47056500
Generally, the most important part of playing a Mage is casting 20 spells or so every time the situation changes, to ask the ST exacting questions on what's going on.
>>47056524
How does a Mage get Gauru-levels of regen?
No, I'm not trying to shoot you down, I'm honestly curious about how to go about it.
Life Making?
>The spell allows the mage to focus or disperse light, and even alter its wavelength on the spectrum. She could turn a torch into a blacklight, focus a lamp’s rays into a laser, split its lights into a rainbow spectrum as though viewed through a prism, or cause a refraction effect like looking upon something in shallow water.
So a chargen Obrimos can turn the sun into a deathray
>>47056476
No, the primary spell factor is Potency for Reverse Gravity, not SCale. Scale is never a primary spell factor as far as I can see.
So you get to move two steps up the POTENCY chart for free, except Potency on Reverse gravity doesn't do anything!
>>47056550
They don't need to, because they never need to get into combat in the first place.
>>47056550
>How does a Mage get Gauru-levels of regen?
Regen spells with high Durations.
>>47056524
>Yet here we are in the 2e era and they're still better than everything else
Hm? Is the book out yet?
Even in 1e, vamps did have an iron clad advantage of there being virtually no limits to how many people they can have dominated, while mage mind control is clunky, high level, and useful on a limited number of targets.
>>47056560
They fight other Mages, you know.
>>47056564
No, I mean, full health every turn, no matter the damage taken.
>>47056552
A death ray that can cause the Poor Light or Blinded Tilts.
Truly, I am shaking in my boots.
>>47056554
>except Potency on Reverse gravity doesn't do anything!
...that feels really wrong. Every spell should be modifiable with every option.
>>47056554
Where is Reverse Gravity?
>>47056585
You can change it with a Reach...
>>47056576
>Hm? Is the book out yet?
The book is leaked my boy
>>47056579
>No, I mean, full health every turn, no matter the damage taken.
Oh, there's no way to accomplish that. You can get some crazy regen, but nothing like all lethal every turn.
>>47056585
Well I guess it makes it harder to dispel or get dissonanced into oblivion, so I was wrong; it does SOMETHING, just not much.
>>47056554
The Primary factor of any spell can be changed by spending a Reach
>>47056363
>ou now need Life 4 to heal lethal damage, when in 1e in was Life 2 or 3, for yourself and others respectively, Healing bashing, at best a minor inconvenience, requires Life 3.
I guess the Thyrsus in the cabal is no longer the default cleric at character generation.
Everyone better choose their defenses very wisely and try not to get shanked.
>>47056592
>Where is Reverse Gravity?
He means Control Gravity, Forces 2. Of course, this won't necessarily stop a Gauru. It's not freezing him in midair, it's reversing the area's gravity- if there's a roof, he can run along it, if there are objects around he can leap off them to maneuver, etc., etc.
>>47056592
Forces 2.
>>47056600
Oh that makes it much more managable. You can only change it to duration as the only options are potency and duration for primary spell factor, but duration is much more relevant than potency for this. That saves a bit of Reach.
>>47056478
Blood Sorcery also isn't a thing in 2E Requiem. Just wanna point that out.
>>47056136
Would you have to use another spell to drain away his kinetic energy lest he keeps on going and takes a swipe at your head with his massive claws? Also wouldn't the mage himself be levitating too, putting him at possibly the same level as the Werewolf missile?
>>47056649
Scale can also be a primary factor, although it is very rare. For example, Forces 4 Electromagnetic Pulse has a primary factor of Scale (Area), p. 145.
>>47056683
>Blood Sorcery also isn't a thing in 2E Requiem.
It is. The 2e Requiem corebook says exactly how it works with the new system. Just wanna point that out.
>>47056703
That sounds like an error, then - the earlier spellcasting rules are clear.
>All spells have a primary spell factor of either Potency or Duration.
>>47056683
The Blood Sorcery book is specifically called out in Requiem 2e and it even erratas the amount of time between rolls.
>>47056683
Actually it is. It's mentioned in the 2e core book how to port it.
>>47056683
Blood Sorcery is definitely still in Vampire 2e, but it's not nearly as powerful or versatile as what was found in the expansions in the old 1e sourcebook.
>>47056696
>Would you have to use another spell to drain away his kinetic energy lest he keeps on going and takes a swipe at your head with his massive claws?
Yes, the wolf can just keep coming at you.
>Also wouldn't the mage himself be levitating too, putting him at possibly the same level as the Werewolf missile?
Yes, if a mage reverses gravity in a parking lot and he's in that parking lot his gravity is changing.
>>47056579
>They fight other mages, you know.
....how exactly does that point invalidate Mage Supremacy.
>>47056737
He said "Mages never fight".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LK-kxChNvg
Torque is definately an Ogre right? Can Ogres change shape and look over time?
>>47056749
Oracle Kith definitely.
>>47056746
I said Mages never fight with their insta-kill shit because that just leads to endless eye-for-an-eye reprisals.
Mages definitely fight though
>>47056786
So could an Obrimos with Spirit make laserbeams that hit things in the Shadow?
>>47056803
Yes.
In short, mage supremacy is still a thing, it's just no longer based on the Extended Ritual Casting. Good to know.
>>47056826
Yeah, they can now do it instantly so there's not even the vain hope of catching them off guard any more. They no longer need to be paranoid because they can just solve problems on the fly.
Thanks Dave.
>>47056584
Throw in Forces (Fraying) and now it's cooking you from the inside
>>47056826
Meh, mage supremacy is a thing of the past. Their thing is versatility now.
>>47053071
>you're a monster
>in your head anyway
The Otherkin element is enough to make me never want to play it.
>>47056817
Excellent. Just like playing a Moros with Time and hurling entropy bolts at people (You know how salt diffuses into water, speed that effect up with Death and Time and you can rip apart anything)
>>47056776
Oracle? What do they do
>>47053381
True Fey takes you away.
You just weren't destined for this world.
Can I use Create Energy (Forces 4) to creat "positive energy", fillling the room with good vibes?
>>47056903
>everyone begins to sing "don't worry, be happy"
>>47056903
Maybe using matter to turn the air into Marijuana smoke hotboxing the room?
>causing an Earthquake is in the Practice of Unmaking
>>47056923
Yeah. That should be Making. Introducing large amounts of energy into the ground.
