So i just finished reading path of Heaven and i gotta say its got some pretty good parts in it
one thing though is that the book was finished last year (the authors blurb at the end is marked 2015)
it answered one of the underlying questions about the entire series.
SPOILERS FOLLOW
>>47036678
>its got some pretty good parts in it
If you think that, I want to know what you think the best book in the HH series is.
>>47036678
gib spoils
>>47036678
The Navigators
so throughout lore and canon it states that the navigators are a necessary evil in the imperium and that the emperor having no other means to travel has to suck it up and use them but secretly hates them just like everyone else in the imperium
as we all know by now he gets 70% through conquering the galaxy and then goes back to Terra and begins working on the construction of his "human webway" project then a few years later Magnus fucks it up by accident
turns out that some of the navigator houses had heard rumours about this kind of thing and were actively working to sabatoge the project (plot point in the story)
the reasoning being that if the Emperor no longer needed Navigators he could have just killed them all, which he was planning on doing the first chance he got because they have so much power in the imperium
it also goes into detail about the navigators are being used by both sides and are the only ones other then ships that forces wont outright destroy and that gives them a kind of arrogant invulnerabilty. this is touched upon in other books about the creation of the Pariah assassins and the whole navigator house kicking up a massive shit fest and threatening to strike (which would fuck the crusade up)
hence why the emperor went to all the trouble to make it super secret, he was keeping it not from his sons but from the navigators, (hence why he explained to Magnus in Thousand sons) although he never tells horus (but then he probably didn't see the point in burdening horus with something that big
Emperor: Hey Horus i know you got a galactic crusade to run and co ordinate so i am just going to go build a webway portal using Ancient Alien technology so we no longer need navigators. yeah you can't tell them though because if they find out they will launch a civil war and that would be bad, so keep it super secret. also don't judge me for using alien tech...
>>47036687
i said its got some good parts in it, not that the whole thing was good. If i had to make a favourite i would either lean towards A Thousand Sons, Legion or Deliverance Lost
>>47036881
Consensus is that it's one of the top 5 HH books ever. Also
>Deliverance Lost
You sir, need to improve your taste. That story was bland as shit.
>>47036828
Well fuck, that makes a lot of sense given other examples of non-HH fluff.I mean the Nav-Houses do tend to be a bit ruthless if the actions in the second Shira Calpurnia novel serve as an example
>>47036678
I really couldn't care less about this published fanfiction garbage.
At this point is the Heresy ever going to move on Earth? Are we ever going to get a battle for the Emperors Palace?
I realise that this would be the end of this tripe book series and the end of the cash cow but goddamn how is no one getting tired of
>On a distant world Primarch X has discovered an amazing Mcguffin
>This Mcguffin could change the course of the entire heresy
>Little does he know a strike force of Y and Primarch Y trailed him the entire way
>Will Primarch X be able escape with the Mcguffin or will Primarch Y take it from him
>>47037063
its set 4 years after Scars
well at this point they are delaying the release of the books to add tie ins from the Forge world books
(Krimzon king was supposed to be released 3 years ago but there was a delay with forgeworld because they had to work out sisters of silence and Custiodian armies and then rework magic)
add that to now they are adding "The Beast Arises" series and the new "
Primarchs" series
sorry sir but its looks like it is going to be a while
>>47036828
That actually makes sense and somewhat answers the most glaring flaw in the Emperor's plan, i.e. why not just fucking tell Magnus. I've always wondered why the Navigators don't have massive political capital in the Imperium.
It's a shame most of the authors don't treat the series like Chris Wraight does. His books are solid.
Most of the HH is hot garbage.
>>47037163
he kind of explains it to Magnus in Thousand Sons, basically saying "Yeah i know the webway exists, yeah i am working on it, no you can't come join me"
Conjecture: he probably didn't want Magnus to come join him on Terra to help out because it would have been Suspicious as fuck if "MOST PSYKER PRIMARCH" suddenly returned home to work on a top secret project that the Navigators weren't involved in
it also adds an extra reason why Emps brought the Imperial Fists back to terra to "Fortify" it, as the books suggest he wasn't far off completing it, and almost as soon as he finished completing it he would have need some extra muscle to help take down the navigators (Custodians are NOT an army) With the Imperial Fists there he would have had a standing army to help fight off the Navigators AND fortify the Webway
>>47037155
You will not see the siege of Terra.
There will be another 10 years at least of
>Hey, what are the <chapter name> <company> doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what is <Primarch name> doing this week during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the Arbites doing during the heresy
>Hey, what are the gangers doing during the heresy
>Hey, what are the old Thunder Warriors doing during the heresy
>Hey, what are the Orks doing during the heresy
>Hey, what are the Craftworld Eldar doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the Dark Eldar doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the Eldar Corsairs doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the Aspect Warrior Eldar doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the Eldar Phoenix Kings doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the harlequins doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the Navigators doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the Mechanicum doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the Dark Mechanicum doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the men of iron doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what the the non descript alien race doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the Tyranids vanguard fleet doing during the heresy?
>Hey, what are the sleeping Necrons doing during the heresy?
and then...
>Hey, what are the <chapter name> <company> doing during the Great Crusade?
>Hey, what is <Primarch name> doing during the Great Crusade?
>Hey, what are the Arbites doing during the Great Crusade?
You will never, ever see the siege on Terra.
>>47037163
>why not just fucking tell Magnus
Why not call his 18 Demi God sons into a room and have a chat about it.
>I'm working on a transport network that will allow us to traverse the galaxy in seconds
>It's Xeno tech but we'll work to make it safe
>It'll mean we don't need to rely on dangerous warp travel anymore
but noooooooo silence for reasons
>>47037247
>Hey, what are the Dark Mechanicum doing during the heresy?
Hey man, I could use some of this.
>>47037287
>silence for reasons
navigators are everywhere, and every one of them is psychically capable
The more you talk about something, the easier it is for them to figure it out. And those mutant jews would immediately put a hold on your entire empire's interstellar capabilities if they find out.
This retcon actually makes some sense.
>>47037287
lets not forget that Mortarion blurts out the council of nikea is going to happen during the ullanor parade just to piss of magnus
Navigator: Sorry my lord Mortarion the warp storm is to powerful to get through safely
Mortarion:It will be a fine day when mankind is finally free of your witchbreed filth Navigator and your weakness doesn't impede the pure strength of my legion
Navigator: What?
Mortarion: I know something you don't know ner ner ner and it's super sinister ner ner ner
>>47037247
What's the hurry? They are building the setting and giving us more content, Wanting it to end is like wanting 40K end books written down too soon.
Unless you going to die in the coming 8 years, then no worries.
Admittedly this isn't the whole book and a whole lot of it was just setting the stage for the final push to terra
>The Khan is now on terra
>Mortarion is going to chase after Typhon in a jealous gf inspired rage then meet up with horu for the final push
>Russ is going to leave Terra to fight Horus
>Fulgrim has gone missing with 2/3rds of his legion the other 1/3 is with Eidolon getting shit done
>Alpha legion is missing and presumed in a shadow war against KGB Alpha Legion agents
>FORGE WORLD TIE INS
>Horus is about to gather the primarchs for his final push
>talks about how Rogal Dorn has been fortifying hundreds of planets in the Solar sector as well
>Malcadors agents recruit Arvida as he falls onto a coma
>Mortarion is loaded with nurgle warpcraft but refuses to use it and has begun doing what Magnus did (Stockpiling arcane law and stuff)
(also actively searched out a weird mind fucker baby squid so he could rip secrets from people without using the warp)
>>47037386
mortarion would have been my favorite primarch if he stayed loyal
Dude's attitude was on point.
>>47037507
Does Morty chat with Nurgle at any point?
>>47037513
Moetarion would have been my favourite primarch if he had some fucking spotlight at some point.
Garro has like 10 times as much spotlight as him.
>>47036678
How many Perpetuals were in it?
Did someone mention that they were Alpharius?
Did they go to Ultramar for no reason?
>>47037507
>>FORGE WORLD TIE INS
Every single book has a forced FW model/unit reference these days. It's like infomercials, it;s jarring as shit.
>>47038115
>How many Perpetuals were in it?Alivia reaches Terra and she kicks Malcador in the balls.She psychically connects with the Emperor to apologize about what happened on Molech. He understands and forgives her. He releases her from her debt to himWhile Malcador is rolling on the floor in pain, she places her story book near him and tells him she no longer needs it.She takes hold of her daughter's hand and they both walk away. The Emperor whispers farewell to Alivia. She smiles and disappears out of the story, hopefully to a well earned happy ending
>>47036828
>this is touched upon in other books about the creation of the Pariah assassins and the whole navigator house kicking up a massive shit fest and threatening to strike (which would fuck the crusade up)
Source?
>>47038831
>She smiles and disappears out of the story, hopefully to a well earned happy ending
Lol no, the perpetuals get hunted down and everyone on Terra is fucked (literally in some cases).
>>47039061
There really are perpetuals?
Confirmed shit.
>>47039061
Nobody knows who the Perpetuals are outside of the Emperor, Malcador, Vulkan, the Cabal, and Perpetuals themselves.
>>47037017
>but goddamn how is no one getting tired of
Because its fucking table top lore your autist. The whole setting is literally "fan fiction".
And people who can deal with it, or like it have no problem with that.
>>47039160
You replied to the wrong post.
>>47037247
Considering the material that came out to date? Good. I want as few significant events as possible.
>>47036678
I'm glad that Revuel Arvida is still alive. He better create the Blood Ravens. I would like it if he managed to get all the loyalist Thousand Sons that are out there and make a chapter out of it at the end of the Horus Heresy.
He is in the care of Malcador now so we will see what his fate is.
>>47042515
No, ADB will kill him.
>>47042537
I will literally rage if that happens. They have built the character up to create the Blood Ravens, if he does die, at least yet him create the Blood Ravens first before it like Alexis Polux with the Crimson Fists.
Where does it fit in here?
>>47036828
Based Wraight rectifying one of the most problematic (autistic) aspect of the heresy.
>>47037247
At Horus Heresy Weekender 2016 they pretty much said that Terra is coming pretty soon, Maybe they're lying though.
>>47036828
This is a decent attempt to explain the Emperor's secrecy, but really he should have still told the Primarchs. They can keep a secret.unless you're alpharius
>>47037247
But anon I do wanna know what everyone you listed is doing in the Heresy.
>>47037288
FW books are the best source of this so far outside of Mechanicum which simply shows the birth of the DM.
>>47036881
>Legion
As a monstrous Alphafag: AHAHAHAHA no. Not even the best Alpha content in the HH series, let alone one of the best books. Dabnett needs to stick to writing Vietnam In SPESS, because he doesn't get Space Marines. At all. Period. In anything he writes.
>>47037507
>Alpha legion is missing and presumed in a shadow war against KGB Alpha Legion agents
I laughed irl
>>47042620
>mfw Dark Angels player
These books do nothing good for us. They're like a damn plague that never goes away.
>>47043440
Savage weapons was pretty good.
They should have just stopped there for both DA and NL.
>>47037513
>>47037852
I am THE Russfag on /tg/ but Morty is a close second of mine. So pissed the Death Guard had to go full retard traitor
I like the perpetual better than the primarchs.
Them Navigators.
>>47042665
>They can keep a secret.
Yeah, no. The Emperor was totally in the right on this one.
>>47042620
Deathfire shouldn't be that low.
>>47036828
This seen reasonable to keep secret as to not bother the warmaster with internal matters. Still if anyone one of them had insisted on asking he could probably had told them.
>>47045855
It really should. That said, I'd move Pharos and The Purge each up a tier.
>>47036828
DAMN, finally GW moves back to the Dune references for once in a move that makes sense.
I agree with the emperor's silence on the issue now as navigators are the fucking engine that drove the crusade and the heresy. Horus had no goddamn right to know that shit, especially with the navigators fucking everywhere when it comes to a Space Marine Legion and the overall crusade.
Overall well done, for once I think BL didnt fuck it up. However the bigger question is, if navigators were so important to the both sides of the Horus Heresy, why didnt the navigators that were under traitor control just refuse, sure some would probably be forced to but that seems to be a way to flat out end Horus's fleets right at the beginning of this whole shindig. Havent read the book yet but I feel like they need to explain why the navigator houses wouldn't just side with the emperor, since he is more safe through stability, vs trying to play both sides off each other? If they as an organization just told Horus to fuck off then his Heresy was fucked completely...
>>47036828
Wow, that's actually a great explanation. I feel that alot of things will be explained by the end of this series.
The Emperor is not as stupid as we think he is.
>>47047527
No he still is, its just the rest of the setting is becoming more competent.
>>47046140
>why not tell Horus to fuck off
Yes, good question, anon. Why would the navigators engage in such duplicity? What was the split that divided the nav houses, if any??
With the dark mechanicum, it seems, the split occurred due to some techpriests wanting to experiment with the warp/demons. Why the split amongst the navigators?
>>47045855
Do you really think using giant building mounted flamethrowers on the fucking Life Eater is justified?
>>47048257
Part of it may just be the traitors keeping the navigators in the dark about what's going on. For the most part, the navigators never leave their ship-bound homes, nor do they really interact with others outside of "Where are we going next?" and "How long do you think it will take?" I imagine there's even less communication back to their navigator houses to organize some sort of counter-rebellion against the traitors.
On the other hand, it might be similar to the AdMech, with different navigator houses split up based on their own beliefs and agendas and the nobles having their own secret civil war with one another.
>>47048547
Good thoughts! All plausible, and the truth is likely all of them, it seems. Horus prolly held many hostage, forcing their Houses to serve him to keep their scions alive. More than likely a lot of intrigue among the nav houses, vying for power and good shipping contracts.
Any other idears or thoughts? (This is an interesting development from the gw/fw teams, and it sheds new light on things.)
>>47048884
I imagine this applied to astropaths and others in the adeptus astra telepathica as well. Communication would be far more streamlined.
>>47036828
Well, HH has fixed the hole it dug itself into somewhat. Good job. It also does make a lot of sense.
>>47045811
>sixty servants and twenty concubines
>>47048165
He's not that bad. It's difficult being a living god and trying to finish a plan that's being going on for a literal 26000 thousand years.
>>47048165
You mean the rest of the setting is backing itself into all sorts of corners to add interesting twists to simple, half-mythologized events and make sure just about everybody seems legitimate in their views.
>>47042642
I could see the Siege of Terra still being a half-dozen books, minimum. If nothing else, to give all the legions spotlights at one point or another.
>>47048530
>mfw according to the author on Warseer they were originally planning to just have "Nocturne's volcanic atmosphere is unexpectedly deadly to life eater"
>BL changed it to a flamethrower at the last minute for rule of cool
>>47036828
How do we stop the Eternal Navigator?
>>47051179
Link?
>>47037287
Don't forget the part where Magnus was going to be permanently wired into the soul torture machine.
>>47036828
You know what? Needing to keep it secret from the Navigators is actually an excellent reason for Big E to have been so super-secrety about it all, and honestly that should have been the original justification for it being so secret.
BUT it still doesn't make sense that he didn't tell more of his sons.
>>47042620
Horus Rising and Flight of the Eisenstein should swap places with False Gods and Galaxy in Flames respectively.
Otherwise, fine with the rest.
>>47051903
Well, who do you tell? Who most deserves to know? He can't just tell all of them - most of them aren't in one place for most of the Crusade, and messages could get overheard.
>>47043440
Poor novels themselves aside, I really dislike that they canonized Lion'el Johnson's firm loyalty and why he was late to the Siege of Terra. The ambiguity about his character and motivations made him so much more interesting.
Same with the fact that in some recent BL material, apparently they canonized thatCypher is a council of guys instead of one individual, which ticks me off for the same reason.
>>47051928
>Well, who do you tell? Who most deserves to know
Horus and Magnus.
Magnus actually NEEDS to know if we presume that he was slated to be involved in the golden throne later. And if Horus really is the final authority of the Emperor, he needs to know what Big E is doing so that he can help keep it secret from the Imperium
Imagine if some of the events of The Beast series happened just before the Heresy. Some orks have a magic space-ship that teleports through dimensions, and literally no one in the Imperium has any idea how to stop it. While trying to figure out what to do, some of the warp-sensitive people notice the weird signals they're getting from around Holy Terra. GASP AND SHOCK, THE BEAST IS ABOUT TO TUNNEL INTO TERRA, TELL EVERYONE AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN STOP HIM. No that's actually the webway project, and by trying to prevent catastrophe Horus could very easily have made more people aware of the Emperor's secret project
>>47051970
And yet for every one of you that wants to maintain ambiguity, there's half a dozen shouting for confirmation one way or the other. You're only going to buy one copy, they'll buy six.
>>47051903
The Primarchs still deserved to know, they were the Emperor's sons and the 20 highest ranking people in the Imperium. Or at least many (Horus, Sangy, Guilliman, Russ, Dorn, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Perturabo, Mortarion, Magnus, Vulkan, Corax) deserved to know and could keep a secret
Though I guess the argument could be made that after the 2 lost primarchs went rogue or whatever happened to them, he didn't trust the remaining ones enough to tell them. But that begs the question as to why the Big E still trusted Horus enough to be warmaster but not know about the webway project.
>>47051970
>*Lion El'Johnson
Damn it
>>47052103
Yeah, I know, and it annoys me. I mean, everyone's entitled to theirwrongopinion, but some people don't seem to understand that ambiguity is a good thing.
I'm not going to bother ranting about it, since this isn't the thread for it, but I'm pretty butt-flustered by the fans that want absolutely everything spelled out for them.
>>47052102
At which point the Navigators all rebel and galactic transit grinds to a halt. Great plan.
Horus was surrounded by delegates and representatives nonstop. He was the Warmaster. Word absolutely would've gotten out if Horus was aware, nor would he want to keep it from his brothers.
>>47052161
New mysteries are always added. Look at all the stuff in Conquest and Retribution that's ambiguous. All of the various Shattered Legion and Blackshield elements. There's nothing wrong with finally revealing a 15+ year old secret. Especially when the truth was lost to anyone of importance.
>>47052170
>At which point the Navigators all rebel and galactic transit grinds to a halt. Great plan
That's the fucking point, man, read the post.
If Horus doesn't know about the project, he's still likely to stumble onto it simply because he's running the Imperium in Big E's stead. He needs to be told about it to prevent any others from knowing.
>>47052170
>Horus was surrounded by delegates and representatives nonstop. He was the Warmaster. Word absolutely would've gotten out if Horus was aware
Horus was privy to a lot of secret shit that never got out, a Warmaster has to know how to keep secrets.
>>47052156
>But that begs the question as to why the Big E still trusted Horus enough to be warmaster but not know about the webway projec
Exactly. Horus was trusted to basically run the entire Imperium bar Terra, with all the terrible secrets that entailed, but he wasn't trusted enough to know about the webway project?
>>47052284
Your post made no fucking sense so I took a stab in the dark.
>>47042620
> Fulgrim...
> only acceptable
>>47052273
Thanks for the suggestions, anon. I'll take a look at those.
>>47052322
This is an English language imageboard. Learn the language and come back to us.
>84 replies
>people still caring about BL's Horrid Hereshit
Shiggity doo da Diggity day, my oh my what a cancerous day
>>47052446
What about FW's Horrid Hereshit?
>>47048884
>>47049053
So it would seem that, perhaps, the Emprah was planning on sidelining the various psyker organizations via the webway project. He probably had a plan to develop humanity's psychic potential using these psyker groups (set up schools across the Imperium, say).
He probably also had a plan to exterminate the dangerous psykers, including those with psychic mutations no longer necessary and highly dangerous (i.e. Navigators).
This might explain the Council of Nikea (no psychic meddling - until Emprah decides otherwise) as well. He already has a plan and doesn't want anyone mucking it up. And it explains the secrecy, because the Emprah is basically planning to fuck over a huge portion of his power base.
Horus would use this secrecy to fuel paranoia in the various psyker organizations against the Emprah. And Horus would have the truth on his side. Win for Chaos. But if Emprah had been open about it? Civil war - win for Chaos.
Perfect set-up from the point of view of Chaos. The only way the Emprah can break humanity's dependence upon Chaos was the webway - and the ONLY way, apparently, the webway could be built was if the primarchs held true to the Emprah's orders, trusted Him.
Thus the Emprah's mistake was to trust his sons. He believed them to be manifestations of His will and did not recognize that they were actually human individuals that could defy His wishes.
Horus, knowing what the Emprah was capable of, rightly feared Him and his trust in the Emprah could be broken.
Woops! I rambled - any other speculations?
>>47037328
My understanding was that Navigators cannot read minds. And they aren't even particularly prescient in the conventional sense, unlike their Dune equivalent/source. Their only psychic powers are the eye, which literally just lets them pilot ships in the warp, follow ships through the warp, and shoot warp shit at people who piss them off.
They *do* probably have an elaborate spy network on par with every other powerful group in the Imperium though, so the big E would have to carefully consider how much each Primarch could be trusted and, more importantly, how much they trusted their own men. I can totally see some of the Primarchs having objections to not letting their little buddies in on the big secret, which then opens them up to being exposed to the Navigators.
>>47052161
Agreed. Frankly, I think they've played up the loyalist/rebel divide a bit too heavily. I really liked the fan theory that the Ultramarines might have just been waiting out the fight to see which side was winning. I'd like to see at least some of the Primarchs/Legions as given to ambiguity and politicking, as opposed to all being PURE WARRIOR HEROES, or FALLEN WARRIOR VILLAINS. The Dark Angels having been possibly split during the war is a cool part of their fluff, I'm a bit disappointed that the Lion was totally on team Big E.
>>47047527
Empy was never stupid.
His INT score is through the roof. His WIS one on the other hand...
>>47037386
What, in what book did that happend?
>>47037852
Agreed, give Morty more spotlight.
>>47052446
What an amount of memes
Ten bucks you are a re/tv/ard.
>>47037247
I never get this, everyone fucking knows how it ends, why the fucking rush to it?
I'm more interest in hearing
>Hey, what are the Dark Mechanicum doing during the heresy?
than reading about the fucking horus vs emperor fight in it's hundredth version
>>47042620
What was wrong with "Angel Exterminatus"? I thought it was fun, although the 'shattered legions' are kind of boring.
