Pathfinder General - /pfg/
"The Fifth Horseman is Apathy" edition
Have your characters ever caused some horrible shit to happen by just not caring enough to stop it?
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Previous thread: >>46912869
>>46924750
>Have your characters ever caused some horrible shit to happen by just not caring enough to stop it?
My Wizard summoned a Djinn, got a wish off of it, and then released it. It then promptly enslaved a whole nation and is running all kinds of nasty black market slavery deals and warring with everyone etc.
Whatever, mortals are worthless anyway.
>>46924750
>Have your characters ever caused some horrible shit to happen by just not caring enough to stop it?
My necromancer has been constantly leaving old, outleveled minions behind. There's a bloody skeleton hydra in some dwarf's tomb, a gaggle of fast zombie orcs just sitting around in a swamp, etc.
I reckon a lot of people have died to those boys.
Even when I don't need them anymore, they're doing work... Brings a tear to my eye.
>>46924827
And now you know where those monsters in dungeons come from.
Does anyone have a collection of the pages that were spoiled from Armor Master's Handbook?
I was told it's somewhere in the archives, but I don't know how old it is, or what the OP was so it's really hard to search it out.
Thanks in advance, /pfg/.
>>46924750
It's happened before. They just assumed that the villain of a given arc was no longer a threat after he teleported away and never even tried to look around the castle. A month later his plan was back in action and five towns got wiped out because the party didn't care enough to stop him properly.
>>46924750
>Have your characters ever caused some horrible shit to happen by just not caring enough to stop it?
Literally all the time, because murdering my own party is discouraged.
>>46924750
Speaking of fifth horseman, what would his symbol/chosen weapon be?
>>46924711
It's a shitty knockoff Unchained summoner, we know already.
>>46924750
"Do they look rich enough to pay us?" is basically my party's battlecry.
>>46924750
>Have your characters ever caused some horrible shit to happen by just not caring enough to stop it?
Nope. One of the things about my characters is how much they DO care, either through being genuinely good people or wanting to maintain a level of professional thoroughness.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/book_ward
What if you cast this "Book Ward" spell on somebody's meal, as a prank?
>completely waterproof
>immune to the first 12*cl points of acid damage
Here's a question for everyone.
Why should I give a fuck about my dinky 10 year old kingdom in the boondocks of the River Kingdoms when founding it has turned me into a level 15 badass?
Kingmaker assumes I give a damn about Nyrissa bottling up the Greenbelt, but why? For that matter, how am I supposed to get wealthy as the king of a kingdom (which assumes the kingdom's wealth is my wealth) when all those Economy rolls go straight to BP, which I can't convert into gold without heavy penalties?
Like, what's stopping me from packing up my things and moving down to Taldor?
>>46924738
How's that work out?
I want to play aHalfling medium who escaped his Cheliaxian slave masterso I can be asmall medium at large.
>>46925551
If you've managed to spend ten years working with people in your kingdom and not form any attachments to them, you're either a sociopath or your GM is terrible at RPing NPCs.
>>46925724
Personally, it's a lot of Column B with a little bit of Column A.
The DM has done a really poor job of making the NPCs into people I'd actually give a damn about, and the few he was actually able to nail have little to no attachment to the kingdom itself.
>>46925551
Yeah, I do kind of have to wonder why you don't get, like, a friggin salary as Lord King General Archmage High Priest Player Character The First.
It would have been a nice opportunity to run an obscenely wealthy campaign for once. Make all the fights really hard, and have all the PCs defeat them with the sheer power of DOSH.
>>46925551
Better be first in a village than second at Rome.
>>46925774
Being the best in the village has its perks.
>>46925762
>Yeah, I do kind of have to wonder why you don't get, like, a friggin salary as Lord King General Archmage High Priest Player Character The First.
Wasn't the salary of the kingdom more or less the salary of the king?
In fact, wasn't it always considered a good idea for the king to get a lot of wealth, so he can spend it in and on the kingdom?
Wouldn't this mean all BP generated by a kingdom can be seamlessly liquidated into gp without angering the townsfolk, as long as said gp is spent within the kingdom?
>>46924750
>On our starting world, I worked for a demon vampire head of a cult.
>On our first mission, she wanted us to mess over a lich worm that walks (the individual worms were undead, it would've been terrifying to fight).
>So we got a piece of it so she could mind control it.
>Our cleric felt bad, and left some runes with stored buffs in it for him
>Second mission was to get her a mind flayer to feast upon
>Capture the mind flayer on another continent, come back and hand him off to her
>World was being attacked by a mind flayer void fleet at the time
>Drop off the mind flayer at her tower
>Notice its gotten quiet
>Lich attacks, she retreats to Lamashtu's layer, screaming that she hopes I'm innocent for my sake
>I dip, do nothing to stop the new lich in charge of the tower
>As I said, that world was being attacked by a mind flayer armada, so we leave that plane too.
>When we get to the new plane, we find our way to a kingdom rumoured to be run by undead, because, hey, we're undead too.
>Convince the lich king of that nation to let us take his extraplanar prisoner offworld so he can follow with his undead army and attack the multiplanar empire
>We find out that around 70% of the population of that world is infected with a poison that he can magically trigger, due to generations of tainted harvests
>I see the druid in charge of those harvests as I leave his office
>Do nothing
>70% of the world dies.
Basically, a third of the campaign was us leaving doomed worlds and just noting, 'yup, this place is fucked too.'
>>46925774
Let's be fair here, a level 15 Zweihander Sentinel is going to be first in most cities they decide to settle down in.
Aight, so: after that hailstorm owned Texas right in its Texas face, we've been experiencing some layout delays. Those delays are being resolved, and we finally kicked out the latest Monster Classes (in this case, Fey).
This also means we should be seeing progress on stuff like Akashic Mysteries soonish.
>>46925831
You would think that, but the way the kingdom building rules are written basically turns a kingdom into a money sink. You can put money out of pocket into the kingdom, but you can't remove any of it in any way that benefits the PCs without inciting an angry mob. I remember seeing people asking JJ about what happens if the PCs just decide to take what, as rulers, was rightfully theirs, and his response was some half-assed "Because Good characters would totally run a kingdom for free and not try and take anything from the treasury."
How would you role play a character being encouraged to change their alignment in exchange for power, when the situation isn't "slide into temptation and give into evil" but instead changing to some non-evil alignment for the sake of power?
>>46925883
Good to hear. I've been hoping for some Akasha updates soon.
Also, welcome back, Gareth!
>>46925934
An evil or neutral person gets dicked over by evil so hard they become a paladin
>>46925906
My players and I have been using the kingdom's BP as a substitute/supplement for WBL in my Kingmaker campaign. We're using some homebrewed rules but frankly I never wanted to bother playing spreadsheet simulator anyway.
>>46925883
Welcome back?Are you doing better?
>>46925906
>I remember seeing people asking JJ about what happens if the PCs just decide to take what, as rulers, was rightfully theirs, and his response was some half-assed "Because Good characters would totally run a kingdom for free and not try and take anything from the treasury."
That's dumb.
That's really, really dumb.
A king and his advisors were *expected* to take freely from the treasury and spend it on themselves, because every gp spent buying a fancy new mansion is gp going into labor, the local merchants guild and hiring new tenant-farmers (thus providing a lifestyle for someone who'd otherwise be a beggar). A Good character should be taking what is rightfully theirs because all that money's going back into the economy anyway.
And why the fuck should the King be personally spending his cash on building up villages and farms? Shouldn't those happen naturally - wait no, shouldn't people be PAYING HIM to rent out that land and use it for farming?
>>46925906
Well obviously. After all, it's not like said Good PCs (or Neutral or even Evil) have any personal costs in services and gear necessary to actually stand in defense of said kingdom... right?
>>46925998
>Shouldn't those happen naturally - wait no, shouldn't people be PAYING HIM to rent out that land and use it for farming?
But anon, don't you remember how William the Conqueror spent his own personal funds on settling Kent with tenant-farmers? Or how he used his own dosh to build up Winchester's shopping district?
>>46925831
You can do that actually, and people always seem to forget it- not hard to do considering there's only like one sentence mentioning it and they give no examples. You can convert BP from the treasure into GP to spend on stuff as long as it benefits the kingdom in some way, with the GM being the one to decide what would and wouldn't cause unrest. For example, "Oh no, the ruler's been assassinated- we need to revive him, but we don't have quite enough money ourselves so we'll have to dip into the kingdom's coffers" would probably be okay but "Gee, those Boots of Speed look reeeeeeally awesome... I'm sure the peasantry wouldn't mind me spending their tax money on them" probably wouldn't go over well.
>>46925883
How is the Akashic stuff going, anyway? I've been out of the loop for a while now, but last I heard it had some problems with poorly scaling or uninteresting veils. Have you guys been getting much feedback on it?
>>46925498
Maybe it would feel a bit weird as they were chewing it.Alternatively, cast on someone and shrink them down for fetish bait
>>46925831
>Wouldn't this mean all BP generated by a kingdom can be seamlessly liquidated into gp without angering the townsfolk, as long as said gp is spent within the kingdom?
That would certainly be nice. Properly managed, you'll be raking in BP ludicrously fast by the fourth book or so, and it's not like money spent on the rulers's shinies isn't directly in the interest of the common man. You wind up personally bitch slapping just about every threat to the kingdom anyway.
In my party, the general, a cavalier, had taken leadership, and had about seventy-five men as his personal entourage, under the command of his cohort, some ridiculous fop. Mostly he used them to do minor errands while he was out murdering the fauna. One day, he'd left them to guard a newly founded city near the border which had just been fortified with a castle. An invading army crossed the border and laid siege to it. Upon hearing of this from some brave messenger, the party, realizing that there was no time to bring the real army over to hold the castle, personally teleported there themselves, and regrouped with the cavalier's retinue.
By the army rules, they qualified as a "Fine" sized army, with a fat stack of bonuses from being magic as hell, equipped out the wazoo, and standing on the top of a fortress. So they went to war with the enemy's armies, using the army battle rules, a force of eighty vs a force of over a thousand, including ogres and flying wyverns or some shit.
At the end of the day, they stood victorious at the top of their wall, with minimal casualties.
Hail to the King, baby.
>>46925934
I feel like the best way to approach, going non-evil for the sake of power is for that power to go to protecting something other than yourself. Not necessarily selflessly (that would be good), but finding something you value besides yourself (ie neutral).
Civilization and economy, ie Abadar, or nature, or something more flexible. I can't see many people truly changing alignment -from- evil just for power.
God damn weapon cords
>>46926291
Shall we nerf them, senpai?
>>46925984Somewhat.
>>46926050
> How is the Akashic stuff going, anyway? I've been out of the loop for a while now, but last I heard it had some problems with poorly scaling or uninteresting veils. Have you guys been getting much feedback on it?
Oh boy. Um. The playtest has been going on for a year or two, anon. I'm afraid the majority of it is set in stone now. What's done is done, and may not be un-done; we're in layout, past the 11th hour, and trying to slay this demon.
>>46926302
Just spent some time trying to emulate a weapon cord and sword combo with my mouse... You just cannot justify it! It's unreasonably powerful for how cheap it is! I say we convert it into a +2 weapon ability.
>>46926302
Yes, please.
>one of my players actually agreed with it
Holy fuck that's two strikes
>>46926174
Spoiler warning for Kingmaker, I guess.
In my particular case, doing it for selfless reasons could work. I was talking about this a bit a few generals ago, but my NG PC recently came into possession of a intelligent weapon of artifact level power. The main problem is that the weapon's alignment is CN, so I'm taking negative levels for holding it. If my PC became CG, he wouldn't take the negative levels anymore, but it wouldn't make sense RP-wise for him to just change alignment overnight and even it did, as with most characters my PC likes being his alignment (as much as characters have the meta-awareness to recognize alignment as a thing).
When we found it, the intelligent weapon was effectively unconscious and was "just" a +4 weapon. According to the DM, the artifact will continue to grow more powerful as it "wakes up", which also translates to meaning it will give more negative levels. At this stage it's not yet able to communicate beyond an empathic emotional bond with its wielder but eventually it should be able to. Unfortunately, the DM has pretty much said it will be impossible to convince the weapon to change alignment (much to my disappointment and probably also my PC's disappointment when he realizes his attempts to convince the weapon to change alignment are pointless). It seems the only way these negative levels are going away is if my PC changes alignment (or ditches the probably plot-necessary sword), which really kind of sucks since it makes it feel like the sword is the one in charge here.
I've mentioned that my PC will probably consider not using the sword, which my DM thinks would be a real shame. Oh, and to complicate things, we have a druid in our party who has an intelligent weapon of his own- intelligent weapons never get along with each other.
>>46925551
Man, my group just barely optimized the kingdom and we had enough money and army to topple Pitax by the end of book 3. The whole thing is pretty nonsense. The Roanoake thing didn't interest my players at all, so they skipped it, and they openly refused to go to Pitax's carnival by not even showing up to the session (which wasn't a dick move since we were playing with 12 people and "show up when you feel like it with alternating DM" arrangement) just to start the war which they then won. My co-DM and I decided to not bother with the bad guy that comes out of nowhere at the end and write a cool finale where the king's wedding to some other noble was interrupted by a green dragon and his wereshark army. Kingmaker is just too damn long, and the Kingdom is too easy to build well.
>>46926492
The missing town in Book 3 is amazing, though, it's quite easily the second best settlement in the campaign after the player capital.
Also I've found the common replacement for Nyrissa is the Brevoy civil war forcing the player's hand, which ends with the party ruling Pitax, Greenbelt AND Brevoy.
>>46926331
Hm. Well, chances are the problems I heard about have been fixed by now. Even if they haven't though, I'm not tossing shade on you guys for that if you did earnest playtesting but just didn't get much useful feedback. I don't think it had the same hype behind it to drive playtesters that PoW and Psionics had. If it's all locked in now, nothing can really be helped.
Would it be unprofessional for you to give your personal thoughts on how Akashic Mysteries is turning out?
>>46926492
>>46926544
Know what I just realized?
Nyrissa out of fucking nowhere was done because Paizo realized they had made an AP with absolutely no world-ending threat or regional terror that must be toppled, and that TERRIFIED them.
Add to that Book 5 ends with the PC kingdom conquering another kingdom and Paizo realized they can't top that.
>>46926565
That is a hell of a loaded question, anon.I, to, am interested in knowing.
>>46926565
>>46926608
Let my lack of comment resound across the holdings of Man.
>>46924750
Well, my Dual-Cursed Oracle thinks he's being punished by the ghosts of his hometown's populace for not caring enough to save them.
His father was an adventurer of some renown, and back when said father was in Rusty Dagger Shanktown, he spared an enemy Sorcerer during a bar brawl.
That sorcerer returned fifty years later to destroy everything this kid's father loved. His wife, the village he'd settled, everything. Everything burned - save for his young son, who as previously mentioned, ran away in the chaos.
So now his hands are burnt and he's constantly hounded by evil spirits masquerading as everyone he ever loved.
It's THAT kind of game.
>>46926492
>>46926544
I'm the player from >>46926489 (You), and my DM has said that even though a lot of the stuff in this campaign has seemed terribly unconnected, it's actually all connected behind the scenes in a way that the players would never really know without the DM just spilling the exposition OOC. I'm looking forward to finishing the campaign so he can give us a run-down on all his many grievances with Kingmaker (and he's looking forward to it, too), but I'm prepared for disappointment with the AP itself.
>>46926608
Yeah, I know, I kind of realized it after submitting the post and regretted asking.
>>46926657
No hard feelings there. I'll wait until the book actually comes out and then judge it for whatever it is at that point.
I'm buying a heavy horse and a wagon to cart my shit around.
What kinda stuff should I get for the horse aside from food and water?
Never bothered to do this kind of thing before.
>>46926600
...anon, she was there in the GM materials since book one. This wasn't some last minute addition, it's just that Nyrissa's entire backstory and interaction with the plot was placed in materials the players can't read, to be explained by characters they can't not kill.
>>46925606
You cheeky git.
>>46926657
Is DSP still working on Arcforge? And if so is it still a psitech thing?
How power gaming is it that I use Planar Binding to keep Planar Bound/Dimensional Locked/Dominated succubi to keep a +2 profane bonus to all my ability scores? I am assuming a lot.
Now, I am curious of other outsiders/creatures that can give you bonuses. I want an entire host of creatures I have summoned and forced to give me extra power.
New discipline from DSP: Fool's Errand.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit
>>46926757
As the guy who started the "out of nowhere" grievance in this thread, I will admit that this is 100% accurate. She is a player behind the scenes the whole time, but the book says you shouldn't tell your players about it.
>>46926742
Armor/barding. A stray arrow WILL hit your horse.
>>46926841
Huh, where'd that come from? Can't find any posts on it on GitP.
Spelljammer.
If the players arrive on the spelljammer ship, and then the spelljammer closes its gates for a period of time as it is wont to do, is it cool to run a dungeoncrawling adventure on board the ship?
>>46926841
What a cool concept!
>>46926600
>>46926757
>>46926851
>you will neverconvince Nyrissa that her plan is stupid and she should feel stupid
Why even put ranks in Diplomacy?
>All this Kingmaker discussion
What did you guys name your capital? Your kingdom?
>>46926915
THE spelljammer? The Spelljammer is a ready-made dungeon/political clusterfuck, especially if your players have an ultimate helm.
Have you read the box set?
>>46926967
She's a Nymph Queen that had her capacity to love turned into an amazing sword, it's kind of impossible to convince her now.
Wait... Her sword is intelligent and is crystallized nymph love... Can you fall in love with Briar?
HOLY FUCK
I JUST REALIZED MARTIAL TRAINING FEATS REQUIRE X BAB _OR_ X RANKS IN KN: MARTIAL
OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMNNNNNN
>>46926841
Okay. This, I think I like. I'm checking out the Errant Fools organization at the moment. But it's kind of coming from out of nowhere, and if you're suppose to be someone from DSP, you forgot your nametag.
>>46926841
I really hate grasp. REALLY fucking hate it. I dislike DSPs use of skills against static defenses or generally things that aren't skill rolls. One can easily optimize a skill roll so that you never loose to a target's CMD.
This is why I have a problem with skill checks against spells, and skill checks against attack rolls as well. For a zealot he can make himself immune from spells from a single creature using autohypnosis with that sleeping goddess maneuver. Because spells are the limiting resource there a zealot with an optimized autohypnosis will never lose to a single caster.
Here it means that a character can always drag an enemy up to half his speed in a direction. With optimized movements this means once you have grasped an enemy they are no longer anywhere near their allies.
It's shit. I hate it.
Assert Existence
Discipline: Fool's Errand (Counter)
Level: 7
Prerequisites: Two Fool’s Errand maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round
Through dangerous and foolhardy training, you have learned to center your focus in order to gain the ability to shrug off hostile magic. You can initiate this counter at any time. For one round, you cannot be affected by magical effects (including psionic powers, psi-like abilities, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities, as well as effects from magic items) that do not originate from yourself. Your own abilities and items function normally.
Standard action maneuver recovery outside of combat.
>>46927040
Oh, god fucking forbid a martial master can actually kick non-stop ass in combat!
It's fucking DREADFUL, you're right!
>>46926975
I was thinking of doing that, I haven't read the full box set but I've read some of the "essays on wildspace" and the general info on spelljammer.org
It might be cool for the players to delve deep into the depths of the ship, perhaps uncovering something apocalyptic like a portal to the abyss or something.
>>46926971
Originally it was Baltheran, but after the accident, the city was informally known as "Queen Ladybird's Party-time Funhouse"
>>46927049
It's not all that different from diamond-tipped feathers, depending on how you define 'condition', as it includes curses, so it's not just status effects.
>>46927062
Becoming immune to spells from a single target while being able to not spend a limit reagent of your own is too strong. What is why I dislike zealot's recovery mechanic in conjunction with counters that use skill checks against attack rolls and spell saves. Sleeping Goddess and Eternal Guardian both have offenders.
If you can't see what is wrong with making it so you literally can not be effected by spells (or if you are a zealot none of your allies can be effected by them either) then I am unsure what to say to you.
>>46927000
The first thought of mine as we learned about her was thatmaybe we could convince her to be allies, as she didn't seem like the bad guy in the situation as it was explained to our PCs and I didn't fancy the idea of doing the Eldest's dirty work by taking her out, especially if she could potentially be a powerful ally against other nations of the River Kingdom. I sold a couple of my fellow PCs on it too, thought it would be possible to come to a reasonable compromise and mutually beneficial arrangement with her. But all our PCs also agreed thatreasonable compromise would only be possible IF Nyrissa is reasonable herself and not insane. After several attempts to scry on her we eventually succeeded and were able to watch her being totally insane, so I guess that's not going to be an option- which is pretty disappointing, IMO.
>>46927049
>Initiator can walk through magic traps
I love this
>>46927151
>WAAAH I CAN'T MIND CONTROL THE FIGHTER ANYMORE
Fuck off mate.
>>46927151
Casters being able to become completely immune to absolutely anything is OK, but a martial being able to become immune to some (reminder: Wish, Miracle) spells is a CATASTROPHE, huh?
Typical.
>>46927204
Dear lord are you an idiot. Ok, tell me how it is balanced for someone to not have to spend a limit resource and become immune to powers, psi-like abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities?
Please, if you have an explanation I would love to here. Because all you're doing right now is acting like an asshat and not actually examining the internal balance.
>>46926886
It's one of the sylphette's projects. Just got added to the Patreon as a bonus.
>>46927069
I mean, if they bring an ultimate helm onboard, they'll shortly discover the ship ispregnant, and they're the father.That should be sufficiently surprising, I think.
>>46927230
>Casters being able to become completely immune to absolutely anything is OK, but a martial being able to become immune to some (reminder: Wish, Miracle) spells is a CATASTROPHE, huh?
Typical.
Not some spells, all spells, spell like abilities, powers, and psi-like abilities.
The ability is whenever you are targeted by or are in the area targeted by something that fits into those categories you can initiate the counter and make a check against a DC of 11+caster/manifestor level.
With even a small bit of optimization to your check you will be able to beat that DC even on a 1. This effectively is going to make you immune. With the zealot's recovery mechanic you can easily get it back every round.
No seriously, how is this a balanced counter?
>>46927271
Not even him, but are you seriously saying that magic actually has limited resources?
For fuck's sake, if you run out of spells you can just teleport away and come back the next day. It's not limited. Just like maneuvers.
If it still required you to use XP to cast spells I'd understand. What's the worst thing a Wizard has to deal with, the diamond for Wish? Some games would just let you Blood Money for it or have a Simulacrum or some BS anyway.
>>46927319
>>46927271
Text of the maneuver in question.
6th level
Convert Intrusion
Sleeping Goddess (Counter)
Level: 6
Prerequisites: Two Sleeping Goddess maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal and 30 ft. (see text)
Target: You (see text)
Duration: 1 round (see text)
With a practiced flourish of your weapon and a surge of spiritual might, you tear magic asunder and redirect its power to assist your allies. You can initiate this counter when in response to being targeted by or within the area of a power, psi-like ability, spell, or spell-like ability. Make an Autohypnosis check with a DC of 11 + the effect’s caster or manifester level. If you succeed, the effect is negated, and all allies within 30 feet of you gain a competence bonus on saving throws equal to 1/2 your initiation modifier for one round.
Augment: You can augment this maneuver in one or more of the following ways:
For every 2 power points you spend, the bonuses granted by this counter last an additional round.
If you expend your psionic focus while initiating this counter, you can use it in response to an ally within 60 feet being targeted by or within the area of a power, psi-like ability, spell, or spell-like ability. If you do, make an Autohypnosis check as normal, then apply the effects of this counter to that ally rather than yourself. Your allies within 30 feet of that ally gain the bonus on saving throws from this counter.
Is never being able to be effected by a spell/spell like ability/power/psi-like ability again balanced?
>>46927319
A Wizard can just Wish for the ability to not work, so it's not all spells. Additionally, you could just, you know, slay everyone but the martial, cackle madly, and planeshift away.
>>46927350
At the cost of a Swift and Standard action every round, leaving you with nothing to do but walk around? Yeah, if you want to be a living anti-spell battery, that feels fine to me.
>>46927337
>Not even him, but are you seriously saying that magic actually has limited resources?
This is in the context of the encounter in question. An enemy is only willing to use so much until he backs out for the day. That is a won encounter.
The initiator in question merely has to sit there and is immune to anything the individual does that can target him. The only things that work is summonings because even area of effect spells and area of control spells can be negated easily.
I don't think casters are balanced. They are always fucked up if you abuse their system, but this is also not balanced in the slightest.
>>46927350
>1/round
>doesn't work against ambushes
>>46927356
Bringing in non standard wishes means nothing because wish specifically states non standard wishes are supposed to fuck you over.
>Additionally, you could just, you know, slay everyone but the martial, cackle madly, and planeshift away.
Not a zealot he can simply use it for any ally. The only way is to force him to use it twice a round using quickened spells.
>>46927383
Again he spends no resource that isn't rechargeable on a by round basis while the other spends daily resources.
>>46927385
An encounter is not won if the enemy escapes, anon.
>>46927391
The additional competence bonus lasts a round. The only time it doesn't work is in a surprise round when you are denied an immediate action. However you can easily get an immediate in a surprise round with little investment.
This is how zealots should be played if smart. They can make any ally in their collective immune to spells/attacks (using eternal guardian). Combined with martyrdom and the creation mission it becomes essentially impossible to kill anyone in the zealot's collective.
>the solution to casters being broken isn't to unbreak casting, it's to BREAK EVERYTHING ELSE OUT OF SPITE!!!
Never change, /dspg/.
>>46927419
And he's not using those round-by-round resources for anything else. He can't craft, he can't use most any skill, he can't even use other utility maneuvers. All he can do is... not be affected by magics.
>>46927427
If you have forced an enemy to flee then you have won the encounter. You have forced the wizard to flee while spending no limiting resources. The wizard is the loser in this encounter.
>>46927419
Okay, but he's a Zealot. An initiator. Someone designed to be actively ending fights.
I'll take 'blow a low level spell slot each round to completely lock down one of the most dangerous men in the room' any day.
Fuck, it even fucks up his marching pace.
>>46927467
A setback is literally not a loss, especially one as small as wasting a day's spell slots.
>"WAAAAAAAAAAH, A MARTIAL CAN SPEND TWO ACTIONS A ROUND TO IGNORE SPELLS THAT TARGET HIM"
JUST. FUCKING. SUMMON. SOMETHING. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS FORCE HIM TO STOP CONCENTRATING ON BEING IMMUNE TO MAGIC. I DON'T EVEN LIKE SOME OF DSP'S STUFF AND I KNOW THE CASTER BABBIES ARE BEING MORONS. IF HIS FRIENDS ARE A PROBLEM, JUST KILL HIS FRIENDS WHILE HE'S IMMUNE TO MAGIC AND THEN DOGPILE HIM WITH SUMMONS. YOU DUMB PISS DRINKING CRYBABY.
>B-but he doesn't need to spend a resource!
>implying "spells per day" matter at level 10+
>when two casters can clear an entire dungeon without even spending all their daily spell slots
He needs to focus on being magic immune, at which point he is unable to defend himself from literally anything else. Ignore him and kill his friends, or force him to fight back against something else.
>>46927463
No one in his party can be effected by magic/psionics. That alone is enormously strong if you are fighting one. The character you are fighting now has no avenue of trying to fight back and is forced to flee. Coming back does not even help because the individual who can make them immune is still there. For a zealot it makes him and his party essentially immune to casters unless they are in groups.
The only way to get around it is to force multiple spells a round using quicken. However because the maneuver ALSO gives a large bonus to saves these secondary weaker spells are even less useful and require the burning of their more important limiting resource (the higher level slots).
It's an extremely strong ability, far too strong.
>Another anti-magic counter is revealed
>Wizard defense force in full swing again
Loving every laugh
>>46927479
>I'll take 'blow a low level spell slot each round to completely lock down one of the most dangerous men in the room' any day.
Again, one can identify spells as they are being cast and make it a use by use basis. In addition the zealot is buffing while he is doing this using zeal, is able to use martyr and creation mission. On rounds it isn't used because a spell is deemed not important enough you can use other counters or simply not spend one so as to use a boost/strike the next round.
Zealots as a standing support make a party far too robust.
>>46927518
>"WAAAAAAAAAAH, A MARTIAL CAN SPEND TWO ACTIONS A ROUND TO IGNORE SPELLS THAT TARGET HIM"
Incorrect, it's target ANYONE is his party.
>He needs to focus on being magic immune, at which point he is unable to defend himself from literally anything else. Ignore him and kill his friends, or force him to fight back against something else.
The friends who you also can't effect because the maneuver is personal and zealots can imitate them through collective members.
>>46926841
The wording on Utter Commitment needs some clarification. It states "one punch" in the text, but then states you make a single nelee attack. So, the question becomes if you are supposed to be able to use this strike with any weapon or just a punch.
>All this focus on the counter that stops magic
>Not talking about the counter that lets you ride along on someone's teleport
This is the best discipline
>>46927350
Just make it so that the counter can only work against spells that allow spell resistance and it should be fine. It's easy enough to pump your skill check so that you'll usually succeed, but then the mage has other options.
That said, I need time to think about it before I decide whether I agree with you that it actually needs that nerf. That bit about giving all your allies a bonus on the save is pretty potent, but this is a 6th level maneuver so I dunno if I'd say being pretty potent is a problem.
>>46927385
Summoning shit at them is a totally reasonable response to someone being immune to most of your magic.
>>46927427
To be fair, the rulebook disagrees with you on that, IIRC.
>>46927467
>>46927520
The wizard teleports away to somewhere that is at least one day of travel away (which remember, you can't get to any faster because you can't use utility maneuvers like Time Skitter to move faster, unless you want a brief moment of non-safety where more wizards can fuck your ass), then comes back with his animated horde of zombies and skeletons (since they're not magic that's affecting the target; they're just undead beings that are hitting them with weapons) or an angry mob of soldiers that he very well might have if he's this high enough of a level. Also of note, each of those minions can have magic weapons that just have the +X bonus on them, since the maneuvers don't protect against THAT particular magical quality. It's a day's worth of setback, and all it turns into is "the wizard throws martials AND spellcasters at the party" instead of just spellcasters.
And once combat has started, the Zealot or other initiator is either keeping up this effect constantly, or he's actually taking a part in the fight and thus letting down his anti-everything shield. He can't do both at the same time; he's either a wall or a weapon, not both at once.
>>46927520
They have an answer to any spells directly targeting them, sure.
It doesn't answer conjuration, psychoportation, metacreativity, transmutation, abjuration, psychometabolism, or... any of a wealth of options the wizard has to make himself stronger/tougher instead of trying to blow up the other guy.
>>46927521
I'm not talking about just anti-magic. That isn't the problem here. Eternal Guardian with skills against attack rolls is also just as to blame when it can be used by a zealot.
It means you can make individuals immune to being hit, immune to spells, all at the cost of a renewable resource that renewing buffs your allies.
Have any of you even played a high level zealot? The only reason I am complaining is because I have and dear lord it was in fact broken.
>>46927575
Knowing Forrest, that's a One Punch Man reference.
Hey, shitheads, here's a protip: You only get one counter per turn, at worst you get two if you REALLY want to become nothing but a fucking denial sponge.
You know what a martial can't fucking do if he blows counters on not getting polymorphed into a bagel?
He can't counter the fucking greathammer that's about to deal 6 times his health in damage.
You an incompetent wizard who can't deal with a magic immunity effect? Hire a fucking LE Stalker. Problem solved.
>>46927461
You can't un-break casters without completely tearing down and rebuilding how the system WORKS and at that point you're better off playing "Not Pathfinder."
Breaking everything else is still /possible/.
>>46927603
>GM doesn't appropriately kit out encounters to be challenging
>HMMM THIS CLASS IS REALLY GOOD
You know this is how people that play paizocore manage to form opinions like "Fighters are really good!" and "Rogue is a strong class!" right
>>46927602
>It doesn't answer conjuration, psychoportation, metacreativity, transmutation, abjuration, psychometabolism, or... any of a wealth of options the wizard has to make himself stronger/tougher instead of trying to blow up the other guy.
If you think the buffed wizard can go toe to toe with an initiator you're a moron.
>>46927594
>Summoning shit at them is a totally reasonable response to someone being immune to most of your magic.
In a situation where also causes to hits to be useless exists (which for a zealot it does for him and anyone in his collective) this is not an apt response.
>>46927615
>He can't counter the fucking greathammer that's about to deal 6 times his health in damage.
With two counters he actually can using several different eternal guardian maneuvers.
Sorry to interrupt the raging over play-test stuff, but does anyone have the PDF for Path of War? I'm trying to find the Unorthodox Method trait, and some of the more detailed stuff about the Warder class.
>>46925034
Does it matter?
>>46927645
Ok I will simply ask the question then.
Is being able to make you or anyone in your party entirely immune to up to two spells/powers a round or any form of being hit without needing to spend a limited resource balanced? If so, why?
GUYS
WHAT IS THE BEST CROP TO GROW IF I WANT OODLES OF CASH
DM IS GIVING US LAND IN NOT!FRANCE AND HE'S ASKING FOR CROPS.
>>46927646
>Zealot uses an EG counter to block the hit of your giant fuck-off zombie
>You save-or-get fucked his ass while he's not blocking spells
He can do one or the other, not both.
You've got plenty of fucking spell slots, you're a wizard optimized to the degree of this Zealot.
>>46927665
>Character is spending all of his time doing nothing but being immune to the fight
>Keep trying to hit him/cast spells at him instead of killing everyone else
I didn't know Wizards could dump INT
>>46927605
Also my guess, but as written right now, you could Normal Punch with a greatsword. After all the bitching about Broken Blade being too strong because you could use real weapons with most strikes and boosts, I still feel this needs to be clarified.
>>46927666
Warder's in Path of War 1. Unorthodox Method is in Path of War Expanded.
>>46927689
Gardens. All the gardens.
>>46927689
HOW LONG-TERM ARE WE TALKING
BECAUSE IF YOU'RE SOME ELF AND YOU'VE GOT A COUPLE HUNDRED YEARS KICKING AROUND, START A WINE BUSINESS AND SELL EACH BOTTLE FOR 50K GP 300 YEARS FROM NOW
>>46927689
DUDE
>>46927693
>He can do one or the other, not both.
He spends his counters on spells, spends martyr and creation mission to swing large amounts of HP. Two counters per round if he really pushes it.
>>46927697
>I didn't know Wizards could dump INT
He can only use that counter through anyone in his party. It's not himself, it's the entire party. Zealots can do that.
I have said this like 5 times and people keep ignoring that.
>>46927685
>Is being able to make you or anyone in your party entirely immune to up to two spells/powers a round or any form of being hit without needing to spend a limited resource balanced? If so, why?
It is balanced.
Becoming immune to X thing is not innately broken in any way unless all the enemies in the game solely use X thing.
It's the same as giving everyone fire immunity in a game where every single enemy does solely fire damage.
It's on the GM to make sure the ability doesn't ass-rape the game. If you're too fucking stupid to circumvent an immunity, why are you GMing?
>>46927702
Yeah that oddity was my bad. It's any attack.
>>46927743
>He can hit anyone with the counter
IT DOESN'T GIVE HIM EXTRA COUNTERS
HE STILL HAS ONLY ONE
TWO IF HE TAKES THAT ONE FUCKING STANCE
IF HE MAKES ANOTHER PERSON IMMUNE TO MAGIC, THEN HE'S SUDDENLY DYING TO PHANTASMAL KILLER
YOU DENSE CUNT
>>46927666
Path of War is on the SRD
Unorthodox Method isn't, since it's from PoWE.
Here's the text:
Unorthodox Method (Regional, Any): You trade
one of your class’s available disciplines for a different
discipline of your choice. You gain the new discipline’s
skill as a class skill.
>>46927716
GARDENS ARE NOT A CROP
>>46927723
I'M A FILTHY HUMAN WHO WANTS HIS MONEY HARD AND FAST.
>>46927767
>Becoming immune to X thing is not innately broken in any way unless all the enemies in the game solely use X thing.
He can do it for spells, spell like abilities, power, psi-like abilities, and anything requiring an attack roll.
What's left after that?
>>46927743
Have you considered... TWO wizards?
A cabal of shadowy necromancers, perhaps?
>>46927569
>>46927743
If a lone caster is fighting an entire party without friends or assloads of contingencies, he's a dumbass. If he is unable to use those things to kill one asshole dancing in circles creating a ghetto AM field by striking poses, or at least said asshole's friends, he doesn't deserve to live.
>"B-BUT WHEN COMBINED WITH THIS OTHER THING WITH A DEDICATED BUILD, AND IF THE WIZARD IS ALONE-"
Did you dump wisdom along with charisma and strength, wizardanon?
>>46927807
>Breath weapons intensify
>>46927796
Yes, that is what I have been saying this entire time. The only recourse is going against more than 2 spells per round. I have been talking about fighting single powerful targets.
Even then in the idea that you are fighting several powerful casters you either require at minimum 3 or one to be using quicken. If so their total CR is going to be lowered and this less dangerous for singular individuals.
The counter is not balanced for fighting single targets in the slightest. Especially for zealots who can use it through party members.
>>46927804
IT COMES DOWN TO TWO THINGS
IS YOUR CHARACTER INTELLIGENT? DOES HE HAVE KN: ECONOMICS?
IF SO, JUST ASK YOUR GM FOR THE CROP THAT'S THE MOST IN DEMAND AND CASH IN
IF YOU'RE A RETARD AND YOU'LL BE SUBSTITUTING THE WORKHORSES WITH YOURSELF WHEN THE FIELDS ARE PLOWED, JUST GO FOR FUCKING POTATOES
CAN'T GO WRONG WITH POTATOES
>>46927862
>I have been talking about fighting single powerful targets.
YOU MEAN THE THING NO GM WILL EVER DO BECAUSE THE ACTION ECONOMY ASSRAPES THE ENCOUNTER ON IT'S OWN?
YOU FUCKING IDIOT
>>46927862
HOW
IS
HE
USING
TWO
COUNTERS
YOU
GOAT
RAPING
SLUT?
>>46927520
>The only way to get around it is to force multiple spells a round using quicken.
Or, you know... Have the party be fighting more than one caster at once. Of course, you can also not do that, since by the time a PC will have access to this, casters SHOULD be starting to throw around quickened spells. Or the spellcasters could realize targeting you is a bad idea and decide to spend next turn casting on someone else. I'm being serious though, if you're saying you've got enough experience with high level play to know that a Zealot is broken, then shouldn't you also be use to a large majority of your combats falling into those two categories? Unless you're just operating at a level of optimization that significantly exceeds the level your DM is operating at, which is a bit of a dick move.
Heavens forbid that a PC could be properly equipped to efficiently deal with an extremely specific set up of combat that includes exactly one of the enemies he's specialized in wrecking if said enemy focuses all their attention on that PC.
>>46927842
It's the most powerful zealot build by a wide margin. Being the walking support tower using the creation mission and immunity counters + buffing ensures that you are a better buffer than a bard and able to handle making your entire party enormously robust.
Besides the zealot does not even need to give up strikes because aiding another to activate their zeal to get maneuvers back is a move action. Check the PoW:E release, it's right there. He can still use strikes.
>>46927862
>Single targets
You mean the thing that anyone with any experience with this system will tell you is a stupid, awful idea because the action economy strongly discourages big single boss fights unless the fucker's packing nine different kinds of immunity?
>>46927776
How you likin' the feedback for Fool's Errand so far, Forrest?
I'm lovin' it, myself.
>>46927929
You do realize the zealot loses the maneuvers he shares, right?
>>46927905
There is a stance that does it.
>>46927887
I have been saying support tower zealots have been broken for a long time. I have said it before in these threads. Not only has every time I try to the DSP defense force comes out but they have actually received buffs.
Support Tower Zealots are ridiculously strong and can respond to an enormous variety of enemies in ways that can make them and their party essentially immune due to how skill optimization works.
>>46927802
>>46927716
Fair, thanks for the info. Does that mean PoWE is acceptable for play in games where 3pp is restricted?
I'm looking at playing a Zweihander Sentinel, and I'll probably swap out Golden Lion for the Black Seraph discipline with unorthodox method. This leaves me with:
Black Seraph, Scarlet Throne, Iron Tortoise, and Primal Fury
However, I really like the look of Veiled Moon for teleporting shenanigans. Is there any way to get access to another discipline? Or should I take Veiled Moon instead of Black Seraph?
>>46927992
>There is a stance that does it.
Citation Needed
>>46927992
> There is a stance that does it.
WHICH STANCE, GOATFUCKER?
>>46927994
>Does that mean PoWE is acceptable for play in games where 3pp is restricted?
If your GM allows PoW but not PoW:E you have every right to call him a stupid cunt and walk out of the game.
>>46927828
>Have you considered... TWO wizards?
Hm.
>all allies within 30 feet of you gain a competence bonus on saving throws equal to 1/2 your initiation modifier for one round.
Yeah, good luck with that, champ.
I mean, with the right spells, at least something will get through, but it's still basically "nobody will ever fail a save vs. magic ever again."
>>46927994
Um. Anon, both Path of War and Path of War: Expanded are third party. They're Dreamscarred Press - the folks I work for, in point of fact. D20PFSRD hosts quite a bit of third-party content, generally labeled.
>>46927994
You can use a trait to swap one discipline and join a martial tradition to swap a second. Martial traditions are organizations with roleplaying expectations though, so be aware of that.
>>46927928
>Or the spellcasters could realize targeting you is a bad idea and decide to spend next turn casting on someone else.
Can you not read, he can activate it through anyone in his party. Targeting someone else in the party doesn't work.
>
Heavens forbid that a PC could be properly equipped to efficiently deal with an extremely specific set up of combat that includes exactly one of the enemies he's specialized in wrecking if said enemy focuses all their attention on that PC.
It isn't a specific band of things. It's a very broad one because spells, spell likes, psilikes, powers, and anything requiring an attack roll is an enormous category. In fact the only things that don't fit into that are supernatural abilities that require saves, or stuff like frightful presence. However a zealot can easily also give you bonuses against those.
>>46927929
Not Echoes of Steel, he can activate personal range counters through other party members in his collective. Echoes of Steel is an entirely different and weaker ability.
>>46928047
Then don't throw magic at them like that. Throw summons, throw skeletons, hell just buff yourself or a friend and throw YOURSELF at them.
>>46927928
Scratch out that one about targeting someone else, I guess. Forgot during the course of my post that they can spend their psionic focus on the counter to use it on an ally... Of course, now you have to maintain using two maneuvers and regaining your psionic focus every round.
>>46927977
The sheer speed with which it arrived here caught me flat-footed. Someone must have used the level 3 stance before posting it.
Overall it's interesting to watch, I'm glad people are excited for it, and I'll be keeping the feedback given here in mind as it nears an official public playtest, especially regarding Assert Existence.
>>46928029
>>46928028
Not him, but it's Chronal Fission, a level 5 Riven Hourglass stance.
>>46927977
Nice
>>46928055
>>46928056
You guys just silently lurking in the background, watching us tear at eachother, huh?
I imagine it doesn't normally go this way in the other playtesting discussions.
>>46927804
REALISTICALLY, YOU WOULD END UP DEDICATING A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF YOUR LAND TO A STAPLE CROP (WHEAT/RICE/MAIZE/'TATERS/ETC. AS APPROPRIATE) AND PUT SOME SURPLUS BACK INTO SUPPORTING A HOUSEHOLD DEDICATED TO GROWING YOUR CASH CROP. SO RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE, YOU SHOULD PROBABLY PUT YOUR DREAMS OF ENDLESS FIELDS OF CASHCROPS TO REST.
SECOND, CASH CROPS ARE OFTEN CASH CROPS FOR ONE MAJOR REASON: YOU CAN'T GROW THEM EVERYWHERE, WHICH MEANS PEOPLE FAR AWAY THAT WANT SOME WILL HAVE TO PAY THROUGH THE NOSE. WHAT CASH CROPS ARE AVAILABLE TO YOU MOSTLY COME DOWN TO YOUR CLIMATE/ENVIRONMENT.
NOTE THAT ALL OF THE ABOVE IS IF YOUR GM GIVES HALF A RAT'S ASS ABOUT REALISM. DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT'S THE BEST IF THE SKY'S THE LIMIT, MAYBE CELESTIAL GOOD-ALIGNED GRAPES FOR EZ SACRAMENTAL WINE?
well no, but my freindos character did. He tried to rob a charity box in a church, and a monk caught him. My freind cast a firespell that missed an hit a curtian in the church, the church burned down and kill all in it. The authorities were then chasing after him, so he assumed everyone in the city was evil and burned the entire fucking thing down. He ran down the streets casting different fire spells lighting everything on fire... starting with an orphanage.
>>46928077
Actually I just got home, this is from my phone. I'm still kind of playing catch up.
>>46928077
We tend to keep an eye on this thread because of the valuable feedback it gives, regardless.
Always interesting when it gets this heated.
>>46928068
>Throw summons, throw skeletons, hell just buff yourself or a friend and throw YOURSELF at them.
Also can make his party immune to anything requiring an attack roll. Also he can negate large amounts of damage a round. Also he can heal as a free action.
>>46928077
> You guys just silently lurking in the background, watching us tear at each other, huh?
My lack of comment is like a rolling wave of silence upon the land, swallowing sound and stilling the songs of joy.
Question:
>>Unlike with maneuvers, the warder cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one she already knows.
Does this mean that if I choose a stance that is good for low level play, I can get screwed later since I won't be able to benefit from a better mid/late-game stance?
Is there a feat that allows me to swap out a maneuver or something?
>>46928055
fug
>>46928056
The martial tradition that involves recording your travels seems pretty cool, and it's not too difficult to meet the roleplaying stuff too.
>>46928123
You'll get more stances as you level up, anon, so while you can't swap a low-level stance for a higher level one, you do just /get/ some of those higher level ones as your career advances.
>>46928123
You still learn new, higher level stances as you level up. You can just use those.
>>46928123
Your stances progress just like maneuvers, don't worry. You get one every so often.
As for low level stances, generally speaking, most stances have scaling that allows them to be useful even later on.
I personally make damn sure I spend my stance-buying-tokens responsibly and only get stuff I'll be using a lot, rather than stuff that'll get replaced by something strictly better a few levels later.
For example, there are many level 1 stances that are great to start with, but suck shit later, even with scaling. Stuff like +1d6 to damage. Neat for the first few levels, trash after. Don't pick those. Get stuff like the Detect Evil stance from Silver Crane, or the Spider Climb -> Air Walk -> Fly scaling stance from Sleeping Goddess. Plan ahead!
>>46928109
He can't do all of that at once though, you fucking moron. He can do ONE of those, each round. Funny how that means that a big old army of mooks can swamp him, isn't it?
>>46928091
>>46927865
SO WHAT YOU SAYING IS I CAN'T START GROWING PRETTY LITTLE COTTON FIELDS BECAUSE THAT SHIT DON'T LIKE FRANCE WEATHER.
I GOTTA GO WITH THE CHAMPAGNE IS WHAT YOU SAYING.
BUT WHAT ABOUT TEXTILES? I REMEMBER HEARING THAT FRANCE WAS HISTORICALLY ALL ABOUT MANUFACTURING THEM TEXTILES, OR WAS THAT ABOUT TAKING THE RAW MATERIAL AND CONVERTING IT INTO THEM FINE FRENCH FINERIES WE ALL KNOW AND LOVE.
>>46928203
That's what the rest of the party is for.
>>46928236
That's not even a fucking argument you shitlord.
Fuck off.
>>46927929
And? You have one guy solely dedicated to buffing in group A with this "totally broken" thing. What's to stop the caster in group B from just... Buffing up his allies in response, to the point they can punch through? How shit at critical thinking are you that you insist on bashing your head against the wall when there's a door literally right next to you?
>"BUT IT INVALIDATES SO MANY OTHER CASTERS"
And an enchantment sorcerer can invalidate martial classes. Your point?This entire thing is such massive bait but I'm having too much fun following it.
>>46928262
I wish it was bait. This guy is legitimately a moron.
>>46928251
Literally the same argument you used.
>this guy can completely shut down the caster!
>well the caster can bring friends!
>well he can bring friends too!
>YOU DON'T GET TO BRING FRIENDS!
>>46928058
No, it's not a band of things. It's the party (which must include the particular specific build you're talking about) of versus one high-level spell caster (or manifester, or monster that relies exclusively on SLAs or PLAs) who is not using Quicken spell. If the party is fighting multiple spellcasters, or if the spellcaster is casting multiple spells via Quicken, or if the casters have options other than casting (as many monsters will at high levels) then this strategy is not the ultimate shut-down.
And listen, I'm not talking about the Zealot. That's printed and is what it is, if DSP is going to fix it (if it needs fixing, I haven't looked at it) they'll do that whenever they get around to putting out some errata. I'm talking about this specific maneuver, which outside of this one HIGHLY SPECIFIC ZEALOT BUILD that you keep referencing, is powerful but not completely game breaking. How do you see this maneuver functioning outside of your specific build that apparently every group plays?
>>46928298
IN WHAT
FUCKING UNIVERSE
DOES A PC PARTY
GO UP AGAINST ANOTHER FUCKING PC PARTY
YOU CISHET SHITLORD
>>46928298
Fuck this new shit, Baneposting discipline when?
>>46928335
>Baneposting discipline when?
WHEN THE FIRE RISES, BROTHER.
>>46928107
Do you place bets with each other on how you think things will end up playing out, like spectators at a gladiator match?
>>46928325
wait, your encounters are seriously party vs 1?
including mages with no minions or co-conspirators?
>>46928325
>not occasionally fighting more than 1 npc at a time
stay salty my friends.
>>46928361
>>46928363
THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT
IT'S NOT GOING TO BE 4 PCS VS 4 NPCS
FUCKING EVER
THERE WILL BE 30 LOW LEVEL SHITLORD MOOKS
THERE WILL BE A BIGASS GIANT OR WHATEVER THAT CRASHES IN THROUGH A WALL
IT'S NEVER 4 PCS VS 4 NPCS WITH PC BUILDS
THE GM CAN CHEAT
THE GM IS MEANT TO FUCKING CHEAT
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>46926841
I feel strongly pushed to write up an Oda Nobunaga-inspired PrC.
>>46928360
>gladiator match
This is more like aristocrats dropping dollar bills off a balcony into a mass off starving shit-encrusted peasants.
Or dirty mexicans watching a cock fight.
>>46928223
I WOULD SAY PROCESSING RAW MATERIALS, BUT HONESTLY THIS IS BEYOND MY AREA OF EXPERTISE.
>all this bitching about something that shuts down casters
>people ignoring that casters can pretty much do exactly the same shit, for about as long as they would realistically need to
>while still being able to fuck a martial up his ass and out his mouth
I don't know what the fuck is happening but my sides will never be the same.Fuck wizards.
>>46928322
Ignore the stuff in the first set of paranthesis, they contradict the point I'm trying to make later in the post. My point still stands without that, but I'm learning a valuable lesson about not going back and editing my post, rushing to add stuff as the captcha timer is ticking down.
Alright, as a DM...
FUCK POW:E AND THE OFFAL GUZZLING GOBLIN TRAMP IT RODE IN ON.
Sure, PoW already had skill based counters, but dealing with Scarlet Throne and Golden Lion and even Iron Tortoise has been fairly reasonable.
But now I've run a bit with PoWE and I can honestly say that any game including it deserves to be a boring shitfest. Rather than sit and waste time with rolls, it's better to just tell players "You win all the encounters and kill all the things, here's XP and GP. Now what do you want to do for the next four hours since you beat the campaign?"
>>46928487
>>46928549
As a DM...
You're a retard. Go back to your shitcan paizocore 10PB E6 campaign.
>>46928393
This seems like the sort of thing that gets DMs to give up on throwing casters and things with lots of abilities at the party and just resort to throwing increasingly large, angry, and numerous slabs of meat instead, leaving the party's mages still OP as hell and further fucking over less optimized classes.
it even kind of fucks with that, since he can also counter the usual "hope you can take 1-2 hits from this big dumb thing before it dies or is otherwise disabled" pathfinder combat dynamic.
>>46928549
What specifically about PoW:E is bad enough that it turns into a boring shitfest? Not trying to start anything, I'm just honestly curious.
>>46928549
Also as a DM, I find that PoW Expanded has made my games a lot more interesting, both by giving me carte blanche to put "nope" buttons on enemies and NPCs, and allowing me to make more complex and varied fights.
>>46928549
Are you by any chance the DM whose BBEG got styled on by a dude doing a vertical charge?
Kek. Why can people accept already the simple truth?:
9th Casters>6th Caster>Martials
Not complains allowed, its the system and Paizo its not gonna change it, search all you want for a way to shut down caster characters, they are just come back with another solution and fuck you in any way possible.
Welcome to Pathfinder, where if you arent a caster or have caster cohort or have some magical gears/companions you are just another pleb.
YO, DSP!
If a creature qualifies for, and takes, the Martial Training 1 feat, but does not have a class level, does it use it's Hit Dice instead, or is it ineligible?
>>46928570
It just includes a lot of weird, caster-like abilities, only repeatable. I've had enemies hit with strikes that cause Slow, yet another discipline for ability damage, replacing rolls not with rerolls but with a pool of prerolled results so they can grant allies high rolls or enemies low ones, rerolls that negate and reset effects to before a save was made, and more.
Turning PoW into Exalted sidereal fatebending anime battles is a serious headache.
>>46928581
Honestly it's more than I'm going to keep track of. I run PoW and Spheres of Power, but I have zero interest in PoW builds myself because it feels way too /v/. Perform combos to fill your Special Meter!
>>46928601
Nope, my BBEGs got wrecked by a party that locked them down with fate altering psionic stances/strikes.
>>46928760
>replacing rolls not with rerolls but with a pool of prerolled results so they can grant allies high rolls or enemies low ones
That's from "Psionics Augmented: Occult" though.
>>46928868
Yes, but one player accessed it through some PoWE archetype. Not using psionics? No problem!
And then I told him to pick something from a legal source after the session.
Damn captcha, you must love trees. Six times in a row?
>>46928930
Well, fair enough. Interested as to how he accessed it, seeing as I thought it needed Mental Focus or something to power it.
>>46928930
Psychic Armory with Warsoul?
Getting a Psicrystal is a blade skill. If they are a gifted blade they can get Psicrystal Affinity normally on level up.
>>46928962
Psyarm soulknife or something, I think. Has been a long day and I has the dumb.
>>46928993
That's it.
I ruled that Psionic Focus and PP don't exist though and it all costs SP for such things.
>>46929052
>this per-encounter resource now takes a limited daily resource
>>46925876
15th level in anything that is not a NPC class has a good chance of that :P .
>>46929135
>not camping after every encounter to restore your dailies
>>46929135
And then I threw fourteen encounters at them with CRs from APL to APL+6 in quick succession. They curbstomped it all. Only thing to even slow down a couple of them was a Darkness effect. Well... three darkness effects layered together because SoP only allows one effect to be added to each casting.
>>46929182
>not plane shifting back to your fast time plane to rest between each round
Reading the Wizard entry on the SRD, I spotted this line:
>At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook.
What the fuck is this jamboree of words even supposed to mean?
>Of any spell level
Okay, so this means I can gain Time Stop and Weird at level 3, even though I can't cast them yet. But then right after it says
>Or levels that he can cast based on his new wizard level
So I CAN'T add Time Stop and Weird to my spellbook, and should get Magic Missile or whatever.
So what the fuck is the point of the "of any spell level" part? What's with the "OR" in the middle? Which one is it? What the fuck does this even MEAN?
Am I misreading this whole thing?
Help!
Reminder to ALWAYS bully casters by having the aeons show up and in-setting nerf their favorite gamebreaking tricks.
>>46929260
>of any [spell level or levels] he can cast
not
>of [any spell level] or [levels he can cast]
>>46929260
It's supposed to be read as "two new spells of any level (or levels, if you want the spells to be differently-leveled spells) that he can cast based on his new Wizard level".
So for instance, you could add both Haste and Mage Armor if you're 5th-level, even though they're different spell levels each. You're not forced to only take 2 spells of the same level, IE only 1st-level spells or only 5th-level.
>>46929218
>Duck Dodgers, the best wizard
>CR: You're fucked
>Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
>>46929260
You're basically grouping things incorrectly.
You get two spells. They can be the same level ("...of any spell level...") or they can each be on a different level ("...or level..."). Either way, though, the level(s) must all be "...that he can cast."
>>46929271
Aeons are fucking cool.
Never seen them used.
>>46929260
...you get two spells. They can be the same level, or different levels. If they're the same level, then there's only one spell level in question, singular. If they aren't, then there are two different levels, plural. Level OR levels.
>>46929218
Now you're thinking with portals!
>>46929260
The or means you can pick spells from different labels you're able to cast, such as a lvl 1 and a lvl 2 spell.
Dont be so autistic, senpai.
>>46929299
I use them in my campaign. They pretty much target anyone looking to throw off the balance between alignments the universe has reached
>>46929260
Every time you gain a wizard level., you get to add two spells to your spellbook for free.
These can be of the highest level you are currently capable of casting, or any level lower than that.
>>46929286
>>46929288
>>46929297
>>46929304
>>46929330
>>46929339
So instead of just leaving it at "two spells of any level that he can cast" they slapped on some fucking bullshit to make it more confusing in an attempt to make it less confusing.
Classic.
>>46929356
That would limit you to two spells of the same, singular level.
>>46929367
Or, at least, that's what they were afraid people would think if they wrote it that way.
Mind you, there is almost no reason to ever take spells of different levels; it's always best to take both spells at the highest level available.
>>46924827
Literally this.
>>46929367
Why would it?
It's two spells of whatever level you want.
It doesn't say that they have to be the same level.
Why would anyone even assume that? It's not even slightly implied.
If somebody showed you 5 baskets and said "you get two apples, pick 'em from whichever one of these baskets" would you assume he meant that for some reason both apples MUST be from the same basket? If that's the case he'd clearly say so.
>>46929271
>them jaggies
baka senpai desu
>>46929420
Because colloquial language and rulespeak are not the same.
>>46929299
You never see them, but you always feel them.
Reminder that the reason widespread time-travel magic doesn't exist in PF is that there's a caste of aeons who, despite having no time travel abilities, just perform divination on all time travel that ever occurs, show up when and where the time traveler is due to arrive, and beat the shit out of them.
Pretty much any question of "why haven't wizards taken over by doing X" can be answered with "the aeons beat them to it and they'll smack your shit if you violate their copyrights"
>>46925973
>We're using some homebrewed rules
I don't suppose you have those handy? I'd love something not as shit.
>>46929486
That particular instance of rulespeak is some of the most retarded shit I've yet to run into with PF. By miles.
>>46929510
So.. is this your first time opening the book, or something?
>>46929510
>using correct grammar is the most retarded part of PF
Anon, there's no need to be so butthurt over the fact that you flunked sixth grade English.
Ok so as the party begins to reach their apex I feel that our full martials are really beginning to fall off.
I think the highest level spell I can cast on the barbarian to help him on out is Stoneskin and grand destiny which is so two spell levels ago.
Most of the really good shit seems to be personal only spells and now I've thought about a work around without having to be a brown fur transmuter.
I think what I want works RAW, but I may as well run it by you guys.
Ok so I cast Magic jar or any of its variants on our barbarian with specific instructions for him to not resist it. With that I hijack his body while still retaining full spell casting. After that I cast the good shit, Overland flight just so he doesnt struggle to keep up, Contingency so he can have something to fall back on, and Shit like monstrous physique to pump him up before the boss fight. Intentionally or not, our barbarian doesnt have pounce so I'm thinking of turning him into a tikbalang for huge size plus pounce and whatever other small benefits. The spells seem like they should persist after I dismiss the possession since the target of the spells were the body I currently inhabited while casting.
Do you think this will work out or will the DM call bullshit?
If it does, greater possession becomes more attractive than ever. Rogue goes scouting, I hitch a ride on his body and let him take the wheel and let him do his job while giving him the assurance that someone can always teleport him back if things go sour. If the campaign persists long enough, the barbarian may even get to join in on time stop shenanigans and get a few buffs in him.
>>46929573
>sixth grade english
In sixth grade they were teaching us how to differentiate between tenses.
I never went to english classes and only showed up to get a 8 or a 9 on the exams.
I don't need to know the rules of the language to be able to communicate fluently tbqbfh.
>>46925551
>Like, what's stopping me from packing up my things and moving down to Taldor?
Kingmaker is unmitigated garbage and the only way anyone actually "enjoys" it is because the DM is making up NPCs for them to talk to and events for him to say "Congrats, you won and your kingdom is cooler now".
It's not something that is meant to really be enjoyed because there's nothing to actually attach to. Unless you can somehow fall in love with a spreadsheet.
>>46929653
>Unless you can somehow fall in love with a spreadsheet
This is /tg/. We've seen weirder.
>>46929502
I mean, I'm fairly certain my rules are still shit but this post has a link to the doc. It should be publically viewable.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19675225&postcount=32
>>46929653
>Unless you can somehow fall in love with a spreadsheet.
Do not make fun of the love between Excel and I.
She has seen me through so many problems,even if most of the problems have been theoretical exercises and proving people wrong with math.
>>46928223
>TEXTILES
Well now you're talking about turning your nice farmland into sweatshops.
Dear /pfg/ i feel spiritualist phantom rather weak without being in his medium body, I know the rage emotion helps a little but i find so dangerous send your ghost to fight even with this. Its sending it to fight worth, or is much better have it bounded in your mind?
>>46929144
John Smith. Level 15 commoner.
I'm a super-farmer
>Only one more session until the semester ends and we just ended our campaign with a tpk
What's y'all's favorite one-shot or adventure path?
>>46930003
DrowAnon's Land of the Linnorm Kings.u jelly, /pfg/?
>>46928610
Except Summoners who are better than some 9th level casters.
I am getting so gosh darn irritated, and my first session hasn't even started yet!
I called for potential players to give me vague ideas of what kind of PC they want to play and then personally interviewed the players to find the ones that seemed like they'd be best. I wanted to spend the next week helping everyone make their characters in a group but then no one would respond, so instead the first session had to be dedicated to it. That's fine really, but actually only one player really worked with me to build a character during session 0. One of the other ones was suuuuuper late and the other two were just quiet even when I directed comments at them. Eventually though, we get three of the four PCs worked out.
So between session 0 and session 1, I suddenly have one player who has to drop the game because he got a job (good for him, but it's still troublesome for me) and one of the other players say they don't really understand the system and want to drop out. I talk them into at least giving it a chance, try to walk them through the rules and even help them build a character (they were the one who didn't have character sheet finished coming out of session 0) but they just don't even respond while I'm trying to help them.
Man, it's just sapping my interest in running altogether.
>>46929492
So Golarion is never affected meaningfully by magic because Aeons beat the fuck out of you if you try.
And Golarion is never meaningfully affected by/advances in technology because wizards beat the fuck out of you if you try.
>>46930643
Looks like the only thing left to do is give up and stop trying!Pay no attention to the small daemon behind the curtain. He means nothing.
>>46930713
But anon,I've already given up.
>>46930835
Reach down deep inside yourself and find the strength of spirit togive up just a little bit harder! You can do it, I believe in you!
I like the idea of a tiny, pixie-like daemon that's quite cheerful and supportive in her nihilism.
>>46930889
>"I don't know, X'jhyzra, it's just so HARD giving up. Every time I get a really good sense of futility and depression going, I see a rainbow or a puppy licks me, and I feel so much better. I'm sorry."
>"Aw, it's okay! I know you're doing your best-this sort of existential angst just takes time!"
>>46929980
In my experience, neither. The phantom is best served as a scout, since you can send it ahead of you with minimal risk, and have it report back whatever's ahead of you in the dungeon. If the enemy doesn't have ways of dealing with ghosts, there isn't much they can do to stop you.
>>46928164
>>46928171
>>46928199
Thanks for the advice everyone. I was going to go Cornugon Smash>Hurtful, so instead I'll probably just get Black Seraph's Glare as my level 1 stance since it is like Cornugon Smash but on every attack and having a +4 bonus, and Hurtful.
Then just probably get as many advanced study feats as I can.
Just hit level 11 in my game, I'm a wizard and the game will be finishing within a few sessions. Which spells should I pick as my new ones this level? Are there any essential level 5 or 6 spells?
I was thinking of getting suffocate and contingency. My contingency will be keyed to cast displacement/greater invisibility/mirror image when I cast feather fall (an immediate action, hello buffs before an opponent even acts), and the suffocate can be persisted via my staff of the master.
>>46931471
Talk with your DM about finding a way to streamline the intimidate checks. Speaking from when I used Cornugon Smash, it can slow the game down a lot. And don't forget about the cumulative penalties you take for trying to intimidate a creature you've already tried and failed to intimidate.
>>46930328
I would stop and try again (after taking a small beak) but keeping the one player who did worked with you if the players don't want to sit down to learn the rules or even want to talk back to you then they don't want to play/don't deserve you.
Before the next time you start make it well known that if they don't want to participate they will be removed. Just be looking here there is a lot of players who are looking for gm's I'm sure you can find players (online or off) who will more willing then the others.
>>46931555
>Talk with your DM about finding a way to streamline the intimidate checks. Speaking from when I used Cornugon Smash, it can slow the game down a lot.
My DM stats everything and there's one guy using that already, so hopefully it won't be any worse. His use of the ability hasn't been problematic so far.
>>And don't forget about the cumulative penalties you take for trying to intimidate a creature you've already tried and failed to intimidate.
Indeed. Am I correct in thinking that those penalties also apply to people you successfully intimidated?
I made a Sorc to be the party face in a politics / humanoid campaign. I'm going heavy into enchantments and social skills. What are some fun spells / uses for skills to use?
How can I make magic to make people my bitch or maybe just talk to them really well.
