So what's /tg/'s opinion on mill? Is it a nice strategy or is it a mechanic too old and annoying for today's MtG standards?
The basic fundamental rules of the game make it trash tier and it will always be trash tier, barring combos or printing something degenrate like Mill 20 for U.
>>46879075
Which rules make it thrash tier?
Also, we have pic related, mill 10 for UB, that's 1/6 of a deck already
>>46879057
They're usually fairly shit, however I just fucking hate playing against them.
>>46879057
>too annoying
Yeah, because getting killed in two-three turns and infinite combos are not annoying.
>>46879113
Unless you play B and your graveyard is another library, I think that part of milling being seen as a dick move is the fact that you actually see how you are losing pieces of your deck before they are even in your hand
And I gotta admit that's quite frustrating
Mill is solid if you build around it correctly, its one of those things you commit to or don't bother with at all. Most people i've met in person who trash talk it are the same kind of people who get sore if they lose, not trying to insult anybody that's just my experience.
It is far more fair and fun to play against then infect
>fucking infect
As for standard I cant speak to that, as I dont play tournaments however the level of mega competitive game store table is high. I collect most sets of magic and play a lot as I have a large group of freinds/people who I dont like but are also decent to play gainst.
>Once built a deck around pic related and infinate mana
>>46879175
I agree with that, but think about how mill actually can hit threats before they are even in a player's hand based on "luck"
>>46879093
The fact that you have 60 card decks.
In an ideal world you could
>T0: Opponent draws 7
>T1 Island, Tome Scour: 13
>T2 Swamp Glimpse: 24
>T3 Island Tome Scour Glipse: 40
>T4 Swamp Glimpse Glimpse: 60
So if my sleep deprivation doesn't fuck up my count, in magical christmas land you mill your opponent down to 0 cards by turn 4.
That is, if he doesn't mulligan. And you also do absolutely nothing to affect the boardstate. You dedicate 100% of your resources to what amounts to effectively nothing until your opponents final draw step.
Many decks can do a lot of nasty shit to you if they run unopposed for 4 turns and all of this is based on a Magical Christmasland Hand. You don't do anything to the board and just getting one wrench into your cogs like a counter completely fucks your shit up.
It's basically like this: With Mill you are playing Burn, only that you can never target creatures if you need to. The gold standard for Burn is Lightning Bolt at 3 Damage for R. That's 15% of your opponents life. And that's before self-shocking for fetches or shocklands or other effects.
Tome Scour is 5 Cards for U, that's about 9% after initial draw and you cannot ever shoot it at a creature.
To make it worse, the strategy is hilariously easy to counter. Theoretically you only need to board in 1 Ulamog and good night, you don't even need to play it. Getting out one Leyline of Sanctity and you have a huge problem.
To make matters worse: Some decks become STRONGER when you mill.
So, tl;dr: Decks are too big and it doesn't affect the boardstate. It's also too easy to shut down, way easier than other strategies.
It does work sometimes in Limited, though. I've had some fun times with drafting Mill aggressively. The smaller decks make it both more likely to draw your mill and way easier to mill your opponent down.It's probably also why Glimpse was Rare. One of the instances where I can Wizards actually see protecting Limited.
>>46879194
Without a backup plan, that card is meh when it comes to milling, but with infinite mana or even 9 free mana per turn it's such a fucking threat
>>46879280
That's a really good explanation, thanks for taking your time and posting well thought reasons
Last time I played against a "mill deck" I was on Tin Fins. Great strategy, thanks for advancing my game plan.
Mill doesn't effect the board or any relevant resource. Its not faster than any other win con, so its really not worth it.
>>46879280
>Christmasland hand
I actually had one of these miracle hands once a while ago.
>T1 eye of ugin, 3 eldrazi mimics
>T2 eldrazi temple, thoughtknot-seer, swing for 12
>T3 swamp, reality smasher, swing for 24
Fastest game I've ever played.
And what about things like Curse of the Bloody Tome, Jace's Erasure or Sphinx's Tutelage as a wincon for slower decks? Good enough?
>>46879295
I also used pic related, ran heavy counter and used the cloud of fairies/high tide infinate combo
>>46879440
>>46879295
Multiple times I have milled an entire deck on turn 4, without milling it prior to turn 4
>>46879440
So it was a combo mill deck, sounds really nice, do you have a list?
>>46879439
Depends on the format, really.
There could be a fun and trashy Modern Deck in there, for example. Something you could play at FNM or similarly semi-competetive.
Thing is: If you are actually going for power, really slow decks usually have better winconditions than Mill.
>>46879505
I can give you the bear bones of it
x4 Embassador Laquatus
x4 Sands of Delirium
x4 Equilibrium
x4 Cloud of Fairies
x4 High Tide
x20 Island
Then the remaining 20 cards can be any form of counter you like, depending on what youre going against
mill is trash unless:
1) it's a 1HKO
2) it's an additional effect on top of something else
3) it's a repeatable/continuous effect that doesn't eat resources to use
To add what this guy >>46879280 said, there is also to consider that deck size vary wildly between formats.
Limited is just 40 cards, constructed 60 and EDH 100.
Aside from the general weakness of mill, it's also something hard to design around.
What mill needs, is the equivalent of cards like pic related.
Also, I still don't understand why mill isn't a keyword, since it's present to certain extent in pretty much any set, and the term is vastly used even among casuals.
>>46880001
They use keywords for stuff that save more room, generally.
>>46880293
More reason to do so.
Instead of writing "Target player puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard", you just write "Target player mills 3".
>>46880001
I'm pretty sure mill does have a card like that.
Would mill be better of more cards interacted with it?
>>46881655
That's why he said mill needs it.
>Be a greenhorn back in Zendikar days
>Decide to build standard because I'm dumb
>U/R TRAPS
>NOTHING BUT TRAPS
>Starting hand has three archive traps
>Draw into another on first turn
>Just play a land and pass
>Opponent cracks a fetch
>wait for it
>Grabs whatever
>Drop four archive traps
>Guy concedes the match cause he's laughing so hard
>Get wrecked the next two
God, that deck was stupid. But it was so fun.
>>46882790
Damn, that's some next level luck
>>46882940
That was all I had man. It was the epitome of magical Christmas land and it will never happen again.
>>46882790
>New to MtG
>Look up Archive Trap's effect
Jesus christ. Even if it was a one time thing, hell of a way to go
>>46879295
If you have infinite mana, why bother with milling at all?
>>46879439
They're fine since you only need one of them to mill your opponent out, so all the other cards can be used to slow the game down. The looting engine tacked on Tutelage is also a great bonus.
>>46879057
In modern, mill can be quite effective. But in my experience, too many people get butthurt over it and it's not worth listening to the bitching.
Don't even bother trying it in EDH.
>>46883382
>Don't even bother trying it in EDH.
Why not, some commanders seem pretty good? What about self-mill into zombies and things? I can see decking someone out as a stupid blind-luck strat, but complementary to other setups I think it's pretty fucking stronk.
>>46883644
>Why not, some commanders seem pretty good?
I think it's more than you're needing to hit for 100 cards now, and more often than not EDH decks will have some tool to completely blank you.
>>46883644
Most of the time your deck doesn't do anything. And when it does get the ball rolling everyone else is gonna gangbang you to death.
>>46879057
Fun to do, annoying to play against, rarely effective, but nice for a gimmick deck.
EDH milling is mostly two or three mill cards to get delirium off.
>>46883828
Fair enough, I see what you mean. Do you have any suggestions for neat edh decks that seem low-key early game?
>>46883920
A W/G with a bunch of enctantments and spells focused on throwing as many +1/+1 counters on stuff. May be completely shit but my EDH group is casual enough to make it work.
I used to like building mill decks that killed people. Now I have way more fun making decks that mill myself. This guy is one of my current favorites to use with self mill
>>46884030
Looks like you self-milled it away :^)
>>46884042
well yea so i can use it later
>>46883382
EDH mill is extremely jank, but I have a decent phenax deck. Eater of the dead+slagwurm armor is basically game. Throw in consuming aberration, and a couple tutors, and it can catch people off guard. I play a counterspell, consuming abbo landgrinds everyone, and then next turn it taps for half their library.
Too bad wizards is determined to make U/B all mill, all the time, would like some other strategies revolving around the color combination.
>>46879439
Nephalia drowyard was used in standard as a slow mill effect for hypercontrol finisher that did not take up slots
>>46884457
I love that card. Its hard to remove, usable at instant speed, you can use it on yourself to help out your snapcaster mages and flashback cards, and it doesn't take up a valuable spell slot.
>>46884822
plus we just got another great drownyard land for self mill dekcs
>>46879384
Of course you get nutdraws every once in a while. Everyone has had a match where everything worked out perfectly. When your strategy relies entirely on getting that nutdraw to function at all, however, that's when we tell you that your deck is bad.
>>46884457
That was only ever really relevant in the mirror. however.
Curse does see play in Pauper where it's one of the possible wincons of Teachings.
If I'm gonna mill someone to death I prefer to do it all at once so they can't potentially benefit from it.
>>46879280
Personally I've always run mill as a sub-mechanic of just 'annoyance' decks. Mill just needs additional mechanics to work, typically strong delay.
Of course, there's always dream hands like you say. Layering mill effects have won me games by turn 4-5 before.
Although in EDH I'm basically milling for comedy relief during tension.
>>46885288
I love that card
>>46883303
Tutelage coming with batteries included can be an absolute game changer even if it costs 6 mana to loot
can you just make a 200 card deck and nulify any mill decks?
130 relentless rats.
70 land
>>46887806
There have been a few limited environments where it's a good idea to sideboard in 42-43 card decks to survive an extra turn against mill.
Since we have a few folks who know their mill, I'll ask here:
I'm building a pauper cube that has a strong lands-matter theme (landfall, domain, retrace, etc). Now mill normally sucks ass in a cube environment and I don't want to devote very many cards to it, but I've seen games go long with past versions of this cube. I'm thinking about throwing in one of these as a potential lulzy control finisher. Thoughts?
>>46885288
This. If you're playing mill you best be packing a dank storm brew or Painter's Servant/Grindstone
>>46888224
Sphinx's Tutelage and the new enchantment that mills when you crack clues are very solid. Generally the mill cards that are valuable in limited are the ones that can win by themselves like the cards I mentioned or Nephalia Drowned and Grindclock. Dread Waters could totally work but it seems kinda shitty since it's gonna be a dead draw for more 90% of the game.
>>46879280
The whole example is silly. You only mill using spells in limited (40 card decks).
In any other format, mill is a wincon for prison (etc) that doesn't require dedicating much (if any) of your deck to.
Also, T1 Hedron crab mills 9 for U in that situation.
>>46888224 Speaking of Hedron Crab, it's a land-based 1-drop mill bomb and a decent wall.
>>46885012
>but muh Flash Hulk
>>46888994
I've seen hedron crab used as an alt wincon for scapeshift when valakut gets removed
>>46880001
>What mill needs, is the equivalent of cards like pic related.
It kind of does. Pic related. It's really, really fucking annoying in Magic Duels Origins, since it's normally played as the win condition in a control deck that plays a bunch of counterspells and draw spells, but it's still beatable if you don't run a super slow deck.
>>46887806
Might as well just make a good deck at that point because 130 relentless rats is a little pricey.
>>46887806
just run one of the Eldrazi Titans from RoE and that's all the antimill you'll ever need
>>46887806
If you make a deck based around nullifying another archetype you've already lost.
What you need is a deck that wins, and a few cards that nullify mill. Any of the eldrazi titans in a 60 card deck prevent mill from killing you in 90% of cases.
Or alternatively just play a good deck and thank urza for your free planeswalker points when you get matched against mill.
>not playing commander mill
>>46892441
>free planeswalker points
should I care about those?
I have no fucking idea what they do, i just draft every friday
is it just wanking rights?
>>46879439
It's played in the best pauper deck (UB Teachings)
>>46893373
Are there enough good walls in blue and black to make that work?
>>46893595
Your period-ly points qualify you for some things, but your all time ones don't really matter, I think.
I will just leave this here
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/budget-magic-91-35-tix-modern-tutelage-turbo-fog
>>46893850
As someone who has lost to a Phenax EDH deck, yes
>>46893373
>not going off with Arcum several turns before you even cast Phenax
>not using Academy Ruins as a demonic tutor vs mill
Some facts about mill:
A: Mill is an alternate win condition
B: This win condition is the draining of a resource that is larger than Life Total, and with most cards printed for this win condition less effective at dwindling that resource than cards printed for the main win condition of dwindling opponent's life to 0.
C: There are two distinct advantages to mill in this sense, however. One is that your opponent is always furthering your win condition through their draw step, the other is that there are far fewer cards printed to prevent victory through mill than there are lifegain cards.
D: Milling does almost nothing to effect your opponents ability beat you. It does not deny them cards on any predictable basis because the top card of their library can be any card in their deck. If most of a player's deck is cards dedicated to killing you (Such as a deck filled with creatures), you will get nothing, from a statistical standpoint, from milling them outside of furthering the mill condition.
E: However, in an antithesis to D, milling can be a viable weapon against decks that run a low amount of win conditions. In the era of Azorious Control, where lists literally ran "1x Aetherling, 1x Elixir of Immortality" as the only ways to win the game, a mill play could suddenly win the game in the same way you could kill someone with a gun in a dark room. Blind shots are worth slightly more statistically if there are fewer targets. This small option, however, is rarely worth using Mill on its own right, and more of a note for cards that mill in addition to an already usable effect.
F: Which leads us to what is usually the only actual use of mill in serious constructed magic: Its printed on a usable Jace. Seriously, Tutelage aside, most every usable Mill condition is an already powerful card that can also win through milling.
>>46892102
My fav card from recent sets, brings me back to older sets when interesting non creatures had an actual representation
>>46894626
This is what I use to get easy prizes at my LGS
The fun thing is that there are 2 burn players that still don't sb skullcrack, meanwhile I dispel and negate them for days aftee the first game
>>46879057
I have a soft spot for mill, mainly because I played a game where mill was a viable strategy before I jumped over to MTG
>>46882790
That's fucking fantastic
