What went wrong?
Richard Garfield lost interest
>>46878238
/thread
>>46878223
>decades of preferential treatment for U
>mythic rares
>planeswalkers
Among many others
Restricted list
this >>46878277
this ever more >>46878278
>>46878277
>decades of preferential treatment for U
>comment during "creatures the tappening"
timmy's being retards does not make U any better
>>46878277
>mythic rares
>planeswalkers
I agree, but these are just symptoms
You have your head up your ass if you think U has any preferential treatment
>>46878278
oops, I meant reserved list
>>46878223
Lack of reprints
The reserved list
Recent design choices
>>46878223
OP being a faggot.
For me, it's lack of variety.
When WotC stopped printing/creating cards like pic related and other weird effects that require a dedicated deck at lower CMC, part of the charm was gone.
WotC became married to the secondary market. It helped the game grow, but at a certain point it becomes unsustainable, choking off new players and having the reverse effect.
See: Vintage, Legacy and soon Modern.
>>46878984
It wouldn't be unsustainable for WotC if they reprinted staples regularly now would it?
>>46879012
>reprints
collectors, speculators and the secondary market would be pissed at Wizards so Wizards caved to them.
>>46879012
Their marriage is exactly what's preventing the reprints.
Somebody really high up thinks that they absolutely need to protect the investments of speculators and vendors in the secondary market. If they'd print a LEGACY GOLD SERIES or MODERN GOLD SERIES it would crash the secondary market, but the influx for Legacy would be insane.
>>46879050
>>46879053
Why? WotC is throwing out support for all the eternal formats anyway, and WotC doesn't make ANY money from secondary markets.
Why the hell does WotC cave to speculators and collectors at all?
>>46878984
>soon Modern.
Christ. I know right? Those rising prices aren't helping anyone.
>>46879081
> WotC is throwing out support for all the eternal formats anyway
They still have pro-tours and GPs. Those count, right?
The game became about who had the biggest wallet before the second set was even released.
>>46879081
Because CCGs depend heavily on vendors. They are the guys that drum up the most interest with streams, events, coverages and shit.
WotC's and the Vendor's symbiosis seems to be based on the secondary market. WotC prints good cards at high rarities and may or may not let the big vendors know of un/bannings in advance, and they also don't really reprint stuff to protect the value of the cards.
The vendors control the secondary market and as long as WotC isn't crashing it, they make a lot of money.
YGO and Pokémon seem to mostly exist by virtue of selling sealed product, but Magic seems to be based on the protection of the secondary market. Mythic rarity alone is proof of that, if not shit like shifting rarities of staples up or not even reprinting recent cards like Inquisition.
The business model, mostly.
Lands are pretty bad as a mechanic too. The fact that lands are both the most boring part of a deck and often the most expensive is an absolute killer.
>>46879152
I still don't see how WotC is motivated to protect the secondary market, because consumer interest will be maintained by the actual consumers regardless if the speculators are wealthy, and i'm sure consumers would still be especially interested in regular reprints
This is like a publisher refusing to print more than the first edition, of a book, to protect libraries net worth
>>46879190
It's not just huge power houses like Star City Games, buying and re-selling singles like your FLGS is probably one of their largest income sources.
Reprinting their stock makes it worth a lot.. lot less.
>>46878223
Pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Compare Kamigawa (which is actually really beautiful and far-out) to Theros (which is just a pop culture slurry).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej34H1pabOU
http://archive.is/oy1Kb
MaRo doesn't want to reprint good cards because he is afraid overpowered and broken cards.
What I don't get is that isn't it the designer team's job to create a balance on how would cards interact or work in a standard format? How do they even decide what gets reprinted or not? Like when Scry became a evergreen ability, you would think that Serum Vision would be included in Origins.
>>46879190
Literally FLGS' would stop selling Magic singles because they would not want to buy them because they would crash at every reprint.
When a store stops selling singles then they make less money off the game.
Then they are not motivated to hold as many tournaments and they will just carry the base amount of product.
This is what happened to Yu-Gi-Oh.
TL;DR you need to give an economic reason to carry a product. If you keep losing money on cards getting reprinted stores will pretty much just kill the game.
Sure it will exist in homes and between friends but the structure will be gutted in totality.
Jews
>>46879248
FLGS's are one of the only place that will even accept the socially inept who want to play.
People would lose interest en masse...
>>46879112
Anon...they just canceled the Modern pro tour.
All Pro tours are standard from here on out.
>>46879210
I already understand why the FLGS might dislike it, but WHY DOES WOTC CARE ABOUT THAT? Hell you would think they would dislike speculators because retarded prices fucking kill interest faster than repriting, because its practically a money waste at the point it is now just to participate. That kills interest faster than the vendors being miffed.
It makes Wotc no money, and kills interest in mtg as a whole when eternal formats are axed to save the speculation, ironically killing the speculation.
Why the hell does WotC care about vendors, the consumers are what drives the fucking product not the speculators
>>46879246
>MaRo doesn't want to reprint good cards because he is afraid overpowered and broken cards.
Pretty sure Maro is the problem. If/when someone replaces him I'm sure well see magic take a swing in a different direction. And I will very much welcome whatever that change it.
>>46879263
Reprint the money makers in an uncontrolled fashion: literally kill the fucking game.
Along with jobs and community hubs.
All because people are too poor to afford cardboard monster pictures.
>>46879272
They care because playerbases are exponential and thrive on having multiple people to introduce them to the game, and to play with them.
It'd be like if you took away bowling alleys then wondered why less bowling balls were being sold.
>>46879272
Actually the game is larger than ever despite people leaving the game due to costs. Also if FLGS' don't like a business practice or dealing with a shitty company they tend to stop holding tournaments and selling product.
>>46879272
Because it IS making Wizards money.
Vendors selling Singles have an interest in growing the community, because more players = more sales = more demand = higher prices = more cashmoney.
And more players means more people playing Limited and buying sealed product, meaning more of that shit is bought by vendors from WotC.
A huge amount of sealed product is ALSO directly bought by vendors to crack open and sell as singles.
>>46879286
But no one is suggesting reprinting them uncontrollably
Hell thats whats fucking happening with Chinese fakes BECAUSE the prices for reals are fucking way to retarded
>>46879248
This just sounds like fearmongering on the vendors part, and completely empty, and also stupid
YGO Reprints cards? i thought they functioned on intentional set powercreep. how does YGO simultaneously have powercreep and killed vendor interest with reprints?
I thought they damaged interest because they don't have a secondary market at all, not that reprinting killed it, but powercreep killed it.
>>46879312
Haven't Magic Sales be sinking again for the last two years?
>>46879331
I heard Khans sold well, then again it was because of the reprinted Fetchlands.
>>46879246
>all these people liking his post.
>>46879299
>exponetial
no its logistic
that whole bowling analogy was solid non-sequitur
>>46879312
>reprinting due to consumer demand is "shitty behavior"
vendors speculating and threatening to drop a product if reprinted is shitty behavior
>>46879318
>Vendors selling Singles have an interest in growing the community
FLGS already suffer speculation bubble collapses every time standard rotates
Hell i know shops that literally only carry singles from the current BLOCK
The threats of dropping all MTG if staples gets reprinted is hot air, because the secondary market and speculation is lucrative only if captive, and standard rotation already breaks that
>>46878223
>Not coming out with the JACETICE team sooner
>Giving a shit about Urza
>>46879329
It was a combo of both powercreep and reprinting. Even with power creep there is a concept of price retention that prevents an object from ever going below a certain point but price retention only applies when there is a fixed supply.
Imagine if, when the next Magic block cycled out, Wizards released a best of box set and it came with every card over $3 and it was like $20.
Then released cards that were objectively better.
This would destroy both the retained card value and any future values.
When reprints are paired with power creep demand stays the same or increases for new cards but sellers aren't buying new stock of cards because of fear of the looming reprint. So you have the whole player base trying to buy some cards from only a handful of people because that's all the market can support.
Ultimately reprints were more destructive and power creep expedited it.
>>46879331
Quite the opposite. Other than battle and oath, basically every new set is the best selling set ever.
>>46879264
>All Pro tours are standard from here on out.
The fuck, why?
>>46878277
People are so anally rustled over blue, when it's one of the most heavily regulated colors in the game. Blue can't win on it's own because talentless, skill less hacks wanted their participation trophies, and we were the only ones keeping the hobby clean of casuals and SJWs.
>>46879407
Nigger what powercreep?
The most expensive and powerful cards have already been printed, like power nine, dual lands, and cmc 1 answers
>>46879397
>not wanting to lose money is shitty behavior
k
The demand is for sealed product, not reprints. Doing reprints would only serve to damage their relationships with stores and vendors. So they can print controlled sets with minimal reprints, keep the people who buy direct from them happy, and grow the brand all while making a healthy supply chain.
Why fix a system that, economically, is perfectly sound because some community college drop out wants to play with their monster pictures?
>>46879441
The person he is responding to was talking about what killed YuGiOh and the guy explained what killed it.
>>46879432
Because nothing new ever pops up in modern.
>>46879416
I think this is statistics manipulation
The real numbers test would be "Is the average of people playing mtg over people who have ever played mtg" going up
because you can have more instances of individuals playing, while having shit retention rates, and a skyrocketing exodus
>>46879397
>FLGS already suffer speculation bubble collapses every time standard rotates
Standard Rotations are predictable.
Sudden reprints are not. If Wizards came out tomorrow and announced "Reserved List is abolished, welcome to Vintage Masters with Duals at Common!", it would crash that part of the market with now survivors.
>>46879397
>non-sequitur
You should really look up what that is before you use it incorrectly again.
Also, when you introduce two friends to a game, who introduce it to multiple friends each, who invite more, it's exponential.
>>46879471
Well forgive me for missing that, when he didn't mention YGO at all, and implied that MTG reprints would cause the same result as YGO, AND completely ignored the contradiction of powercreep AND reprints causing the same problem
>>46879453
Have you considered perhaps that the demand for sealed products is high because people don't have the money or don't want to invest the money to get into constructed formats?
>>46879506
Is English your first language?
>>46879416
http://themeadery.org/b/ian/read/news-hasbro-reports-q2-increase-in-revenue-but-a-decline-in-mtg/
And I recall having read something like that for 2015 not too long ago.
Doesn't necessarily contradict what you are saying, but if boosters sales are up, then what is going on?
>>46879482
>Sudden reprints are not.
WHO THE FUCK SAID SUDDEN?
are you trying to be obtuse on purpose?
WotC can ease into a reprint schedule, can have a regular reprint schedule, and can still do insider tradeing/ notice with LGS like they do with the incoming card bans
>>46879509
Doesn't matter. The market does not care.
If people are willing to pay for sealed then that's the way it will be. Why fix something that is literally the opposite of broken? Even the weakest selling sets of the last five years have been record breaking when you look at the decade as a whole. They are doing something right in the way they keep all parts of the sale beneath them happy.
If you want those cards you will save for those cards. If you cannot afford those cards, you do not care enough. You have no right to afford anything.
>>46879562
>this whole post
>>46879522
didn't they just also killed off Event decks? I'm guessing either Duel Decks or Commander decks will be discontinued soon.
>>46878223
>>46879437
>clear of casuals and SJWs
So, just to be clear... You would rather play with like-minded people with opinions that match your own, over and over again, rather than sit across from someone who doesn't take the game as seriously as you or someone with an AleshaWSAD playmat and a tumblr blog?
>>46879537
The problem is the very first announcement. The moment they first announce any reprints on a meaningful scale, prices will crash down.
And then nothing is safe anymore.
>>46879573
You are fully capable of not playing Magic if you do not like the way they do business. If you like the FLGS' staying afloat and having a broad system of tournaments and organized play then you might just have to fucking deal with it.
>>46878295
the best creatures are Blue.
>>46879178
It also adds the problematic "un-fun" (yes yes fun is a buzzword) situation of mana flooding/mana screwing. Basically you might not GET to play the game BECAUSE OF A CORE GAME MECHANIC. Say what you like about Hearthstone, it streamlined that part of the game pretty well.
(Also the "not allowed to play" feeling is most of what makes people butthurt about U. Every U player has that 'single player game' deck list stacked with counterspells, shackling enchantments etc)
>>46879581
would a Timeshifted or Expedition additional card in a booster would help reprints?
>>46879574
They found they could sell way more if they made the duel decks = Event Decks.
So now they have duel decks that can be combined together to form 1 Event Deck.
>>46879594
>the best creatures are Blue
Like delicious tournament winners: tarmagoyf and serra angel
>>46879608
How would you work that around the, you know, 5 different colors in the fucking game? What about ramp? What about land destruction? What about the non-basic lands with neat effects? Magic: the gathering would not be magic:the gathering without lands.
>>46879517
Yes move the goal posts till you have to fall back to personal attacks
He didn't mention YGO, And I thought he was answering my question about how YGO's development meta related to MTG's
YGO reprints would have no effect on its secondary market, because of the inherently designed powercreep, the secondary market is dead on arrival
THAT is why I am having trouble seeing how it would apply to MTG, where the most powerful cards have already existed, and reprinting is suggested to just increase access to them, and power creep is not constantly intentionally designed, not to mention it rarely exceeds the precedent
>>46879609
No. A black lotus reprint, or even the hint that one is possible, would be a massive loss to a lot of people. Even a 30% decrease in price would be a massive loss for a store or reseller.
Shit one black lotus and half a time walk can BUY you a FLGS
Markets do not recover easy.
>>46879640
Serra angel has been power-creep'd out by now. That mythic rare flipping angel in the new set is 4 different flavors of better than Serra angel.
>>46879608
I like how Kaijudo dealt with mana making every card a "land", though it seems the game was flooded with 5color goodstuff type decks
>>46879609
Expeditions had practically no impact and, if any, it was getting the price up.
>>46879656
Fuck. Meant to reply to >>46879638
>>46879659
You could probably prevent that by going heavier on colored Manacost. You can't really go 5C Goodstuff if the good stuff needs RRR or GGG or WWW at least.
Card quality has dropped significantly since Dragon's Maze, R&D has been dropped on its head or forced to back off printing more than one good card in a set. This has, at least for me, caused more players to leave Standard and go for more eternal formats AKA Modern, since only me and 3 other people at my store play Legacy
And even then, we reached the point of $1000 Standard decks in the Khans era
>>46879562
>The market does not care.
nigger wat? the consumers are the foundation of the market
if the producer is forcing the consumers away from the actual market equilibrium, then it would certainly be relevant.
This is artificial manipulation of the consumers by the producer, and those bubbles always pop
>>46879591
No seriously
In this thread It has been stated that MTG's interest is supported by a healthy secondary market
It has been stated that MTG is killing eternal format support
How the hell will the healthy interest be supported if the secondary market is stagnated to heat death and dropped like a dead cat?
>>46879670
It's `kay, the mis-click was just as retarded as implying blue had the best creatures.
>>46879654
This is total bullshit because Blak lotus's price is because its a fucking collector item from 2 decades ago
Its alpha and beta prices would not be affected at all
>>46879641
The secondary market for YuGiOh was not DOA but took several years to kill. It was quite strong for a while but once a precedent of both reprints and power creep was established the market was killed.
Regardless of if better cards are to come out after we reprint Black Lotus or Sneak Attack, or anything of value above $20, the market has been shown that these are poor investments and the market would die.
Magic's market is a lot bigger so it will take longer to kill but it would happen. The first to go would be the FLGS' because they usually already run a razor's edge and can't afford to be throwing money away on poor investments that they know won't retain the money they spend on buying from players, even at retarded 20% of tcg type sell rates. Once FLGS' go the game is dead within a handful of years.
If you cannot see this you are being intentionally obtuse.
>>46879722
Nigger you are intentionally ignoring my directly relevant question: (IN MTG) what fucking powercreep?
Why even bloat card prices when being a pro might win you small amounts of money
https://twitter.com/fffreakmtg/status/724245424551411712
>>46879696
The market doesn't care if Bobby can't afford a goyf playset.
It only cares that Jimmy, Sue, and Nick are buying packs. You are not a factor in a market that pulls its data from pack pulling.
The only things Wizards knows are:
>people are buying packs
>stores sell packs and get people to spend more money by organizing events
>keeping the stores happy is important
>we can do this through giving them a way to make money by buying old cards from players and reselling them
>we can encourage them to push our game harder by protecting their investments (as small as they are individually, but a whole inventory is quite valuable)
>we can do this through not reprinting cards in large quantities
Wizards can only protect downward value, not upward. They can see the market value go up and say "okay we can literally only make this cheaper by reprinting it" so they pick and choose their battles and what to reprint. By having a reserved list they make an explicit list of investments for stores to make.
>>46879764
I never said anything about Magic power creep except in a hypothetical. Power creep on its own wouldn't kill Magic anyways because the reserved list would always have a permanent value.
The only real, guaranteed killer of Magic would be reprints.
>>46879815
Except that Bobby is actually Billy, Bob, Bert, Bertha, who outnumber Jimmy Sue and Nick, have spent more money on MTG than Jimmy Sue and Nick, and will be retained longer than Jimmy Sue and Nick
They are choosing to kill eternal formats, how the hell does that protect the secondary market better than reprinting?
Dead is less desirable than dying.
>>46879722
Some FLGS actually sell products other than MTG
MTG is sustained by a massive bubble. This bubble cannot exist forever. There is only so much design space, so much saturation that MTG can get, so much the prices can rise, and it's going to pop one day with dire repercussions for groups who are invested in the secondary market as well as people who are interested purely in the game.
We've been seeing rehashes of old sets several times already, the reduction of total new prints per year... the design space left for the game without significant powercreep is increasingly limited. If a new set is mismanaged or if the game stagnates because of lack of new material, Magic will die.
One day the bubble will pop, the prices will crash, FNM attendance will drop through the floor. It might not be next year, might not be five years from now, might not be ten years from now, but there will be a day that Magic won't really exist anymore, and it feels like everyone is trying to be blissfully ignorant of that fact.
>>46879846
>brings up YGO
asks how YGO is relevant
>Its completely different and un-applicable
but, how is it relevant
>h-yuck, is English you first language?
answer my question
>reasserts non-sequiter conclusion
how is YGO relevant to MTG if your extremely tenuous connection is a disjointed hypothetical?
if MTG's power-creep is not inherently designed, and insignificant, then how is it relevant in secondary market to YGO where its inherent power-creep is the dominant factor?
>>46879897
>There is only so much design space
Before NWO I would have argued against you
But now I would have to agree. NWO puts a fucking shallow cap on anything MTG could even attempt
>>46879879
Sush
That would ruin their whole argument
>>46879506
>>46879641
>>46879764
>>46879930
Are you fucking autistic? He replied to a comment asking how YuGiOh did it and why it was a bad idea.
>>46879654
What fucking lgs makes its dosh on power nine sales?
>>46879930
Oh, you're the same inept retard using non-sequitur incorrectly.
Shitting up other peoples replies too?
Good job!
I wish I knew a language to insult you in that you could comprehend.
>>46879989
No, He brought up YGO in relation to MTG
>>46879248
and I asked how that was relevant to MTG when their secondary markets function on different drivers
I'm not autist, you're just illiterate
>>46880219
non-sequitur just means that it does not follow
>>46880253
shut up autist
>>46880296
you first asshole
>>46879475
And if something does, they ban it.
>>46880329
After the cards in the deck increase by $40 each.
>>46880401
And then never go back down.
>>46880271
Most people know, autist anon apparently doesn't.
>>46880513
Nah, they go down by 20% after the banning, which leaves them only 8 times as expensive as they were instead of 10 times.
>>46880531
I generally apply the "He who smelt it" rule when it comes to accusations of autism in 4 chin
>>46879897
Decline not pop, look at warhammer as an example of things to come if anything.
>>46878223
You never got gud.
>>46880589
That does seem to be a favorable approach when someone accuses you of autism.
>>46879406
This is probably bait but I agree with it.
There seems to be a lack of cards recently that make you go 'hmmm... I want to build around this'.
At least Shadows over Innistrad gave me some fun cards to putz around with.
>>46880589
Your lack of introspection and baseless assumptions comes off as obvious, anon.
>>46880699
This. Gatewatch and BFZ were kind of disappointing. Even dragons was kind of lame. Fate Reforged was a pretty good set though. I'm pretty torn about origins.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptsoi/where-modern-goes-from-here-2016-04-24
Money. Money will be the death of a game I so love.
Nothing. The brand is growing financially and making everyone involved lots of money.
They should ban every card worth 20$ or more.
Hasbro
>>46880859
>this salt miser
Just play pauper, poorfag.
>>46880959
>I don't wanna pay $500 for land and $800 for spells for one deck
>Lol git gud poorfag. Go play pooper. I can efford muh cards cuz i work at mc. Doodles
>>46880998
>playing any format that requires that much investment in bullshit
Just play commander, or make due with average dual colour lands like every other poorfag.
>>46880699
I was hoping for more cheap madness removal that wasn't a reprint.
Guess I'm still riding off of fiery temper and dark withering in that deck.
>>46880959
I just don't see the reason why i should spend more than 150-250$ per year to keep playing this game.
>>46881040
Goodluck with that mindset, magic will last long when you'll only find people to play sealed and not any other format
Absolutely nothing. It's a great game with multiple populated formats so you can play any type of game mostly anywhere. The multitude of online magic emulators is enormous, many of them absolutely free with access to every card.
>>46878223
Flawed resource mechanics
Power creep
Sky high prices of singles due to powercrep and artifical scarcity.
Autists
>>46881606
Only point 3 is accurate, and only the part with artificial scarcity.
Power creep is impossible to avoid, but MtG deals with it the best possible way.
>>46881672
Point 1 is the biggest reason I've stopped playing mtg.
Losing game due to pure rng because you get mana flooded/starved with no way to work around that.
Core mechanic of magic is both outdated and flawed.
I wouldn't call mtg dealing with power creep as best possible way. Unless you are talking about resellers.
>>46882141
power creep has literally nothing to do with resellers, it's an entirely different topic.
As for the lands, the lands add so ridiculously many levels of depth to the game at the cost of risk.
Lands is possibly one of the best things about MtG. The only issue is their absurd prices. But that's not a mechanical issue, that's an issue with WotC being greedy jews.
>>46882237
>Lands is possibly one of the best things about MtG
>Watch 2015 pro tour finals where player can't play his cards due to no land
>What an exciting game
>>46882282
>watch 2020 pro tour finals where one player draw all his lategame bombs and can't play his cards before he dies
>what an exciting game
>>46882282
Deal with it. It's been a core mechanic of the game for over twenty fucking years.
>>46882326
What a great argument for it being a good mechanic.
11/10
>>46882282
>>46882318
I realize I'll have to go in depth because you're probably too dumb to get what I meant.
Removing lands won't remove shitty draws you imbecile.
You will simply move the shitty hand from being "no lands" to being something else.
You're probably a big hearthstone fan, notice how it's impossible to get a bad hand in that game? Wait, it still happens all the time? Wow, who would have thought!
>>46879576
>>46882363
The reason it is a great mechanic is that it gives you limitless potential in combining cards from different "archetypes" (The colors) at the cost of reliability and speed.
Take hearthstone as an example again, it would be like playing rogue and priest class cards in the same deck, you could even add warrior class cards, but at increased risk and at the cost of speed and reliability.
Removing lands would completely remove this aspect from the game, you would have to put some other limit to restrict card interaction. Which removes a fucking ridiculous amount of depth from the game.
No more 5 color gimmick decks at the cost of life and reliability.
No more decks splashing for an awesome card.
The variety we would have wouldn't even be a fucking shadow of what we do now.
So yes, lands are fucking great. Lands are the best. Now if only they were more affordable.
>>46882366
So you're saying that even developed games with no lands have the same problem?
So you have to add ~40% empty space and tons of money into your deck for no reason?
>>46882466
Aww, that was too sincere.
Fine I accept, lands are actually pretty cool in their current form.
>>46882474
In return for having a guaranteed resource, it comes at the cost of either card power or availability.
What's best, 10 cards and 40% "empty space" or 4 cards?
And money doesn't come into this at fucking all. You're probably justrightfullyupset about lands being overpriced and lashing out at them. That's not an issue with lands though, but WotC reprint policy.
>>46879897
So what the doomers have been saying for the past 10 years. Thanks for that original content.
>>46882466
Removing lands would make magic unplayable.
Thankfully Islands, Mountains, Swamps, Forests, and Plains are 5 cents or less.
You can't afford that, why are you playing magic?
>>46882634
You don't actually put basic lands in your deck, do you?
>>46882649
This would like a word with you.
>>46882649
>>46882634
Aren't those dragons of tahkir common dual lands worth like ¢10 each?
>>46882705
I wouldn't know, I'm not the neckbeard that sits behind the counter looking bored as fuck.
>>46882730
Yeah. You're the neckbeard sitting in front of his computer looking depressed as fuck.
>>46879897
>Someday MtG will no longer be popular
That is literally all you're saying. You clearly don't understand what a bubble is. If it takes 25 years to pop, it's not a bubble.
>>46882649
You are the reason Path to Exile is unconditional removal for W
>>46882649
I play basics so I have something to search for when people Ghost Quarter my lands or Path my creatures.
>>46882838
It already did you mongoloid, do us both a favor and google "mtg crash". The bubble just reinflated.
>>46879625
That was Clash Packs, which were alternating with Event Decks and were a separete thing from Duel Decks.
Clash Packs and Event Decks have both been axed, due to not selling.
Duel Decks are still around, though, because those sell.
>>46886151
Event decks didn't sell well?
The could kick almost any FNM players ass completely just because they had an appropriate mana curve and amount of land...
I'm surprised, kinda.
>>46886196
The last event deck had Hangarback Walker. Isn't that card really valuable? Don't event decks have decent cards that people look for?
>>46886196
>>46886311
It's kind of surprising, really.
They're decently well made for what they are (something playable yet intended to be upgraded), with a good number of playable cards, yet they apparently just...don't sell.
I am currently enjoying MTG more than I have in a while.
I don't even know what format you are complaining about.
>>46878223
literally became pay to win. some dude I worked with had $40,000 worth of vintage cards that he'd collected when he was younger, im talking every mox, like 40 dual lands, time walks, black lotus, everything. New players try to pick the game up and get fucking destroyed by people with tailored decks, its not even close, full on domination. how the hell can you wan't to pursue a new game thats gonna cost you hundreds of dollars to make a deck that can compete?
>just play casual
humans play to win
>>46886353
Are you by chance playing Casual or EDH only and have been collecting for several years?
>>46886468
Casual, EDH and draft. Only been collecting since M12, but that's 5 years I guess?
As someone who started in M12, I admittedly can't see eye-to-eye with a lot of complaints as they were in full swing when I started.
>>46886514
I started in Avacyn Restored and the game feels shit to me now. When Hellrider and Falkenrath Aristocrat rotated and I was left looking at unironically putting Exava in an aggro list, it just felt like something had changed.
>>46878223
MaRo.
>>46886605
People ran Butcher of the Horde for a while. That Phoenix did a lot of work too.
Currently, the only thing is that pretty bad Firebird.
There was apparently 8 decks in the top 8 at the last big standard event. Plus, I am in love with that GB control deck with Season's Past and whatnot?
My experience with Standard is mostly an impartial observer. Every time I try to build a deck for it, the meta changes before I even get to play a tournament with it.
The best part about playing magic is playing my deck unsleeved with foil mythic rares.
But the transform cards ruin it because of the annoying proxies.
>>46886443
That's why formats exist
>>46886740
>Legacy
$3000
>Modern
$1500
>Standard
$700
>>46886779
There are decks in Standard that are better for less than 700$.
Though honestly, playing tournament MTG is always a big dumb.
>>46886779
>this format has a entry cost higher than I'm willing to pay so it's pay2win
>>46878223
>Creation of multiple formats.
>Each format has to have its desires fulfilled.
>New sets designed in original ways, mainly designed for internal limited play.
>Players beg for cards in earlier formats to be reprinted in hopes of it decreasing their costs.
>Wizards gives it a try in KTK with fetches, causes price spike in Standard up to $1k.
>Older "format playables" get no reprints, no more prints going around makes for good supply-n'-demand.
>Costs spike, turning eternal formats into "exclusive clubs" with high entrance fees.
>Due to a need for new sets to keep interest, eternal formats begin to desire wizard's slightly-too-powerful mistakes.
>Wizards doesn't intentionally print these cards now as they either define a format or ruin it, and either angers their audience.
It's pretty much that. People are angry that they can't get their broken as fuck cards to be in a format they don't give a rat's ass about without understanding the impact this action would have. Wizards made the decision that more of these cards would be a bad idea and thus didn't print them.
HOWEVER, this is not to say that they're off scotch free. I believe the usage of the reserved list in order to "diversify the playing field" is a mistake. The list itself is necessary, as shown by the banning of the Eldrazi menace a month ago.
Look, these sorts of things aren't just "right and wrong", a clusterfuck of decisions have to be made and any answer makes somebody somewherein your case, (You),pissed off.
>>46879081
People would bitch-rage if they woke up to their 10k investment being worth less than a subway sandwich. Use your f*cking brain.
>>46887063
That actually fits almost every definition of pay to win.
>>46887063
>thinking normal people can afford a months rent just so they can win at a card game.
>>46881172
Welcome to Pauper, my friend. It's pretty much MTG paradise.
>>46887063
Minimum of 700$, for one deck, on a regular basis is a little more than reasonable, its retarded
yes its fucking pay to win you raging shitlord
>>46887120
Its a fucking children's card game not an investment scheme you dipshit
>>46887147
Is 700$ you purchasing boxes until you get foil playsets of what you need?
Because that's not a very cost-efficient way of building a competitive deck.
>>46882649
Path. To. Exile.
>>46887160
It'd be a lot of negative publicity from adult children who have money.
>>46887160
You have obviously never seen Legacy.
>>46887168
nigger wat?
Non foils are still retardedly expensive, why even try to lie about that?
>>46887168
Lands.
>>46887124
No, that's pay to play. Paying more money doesn't further your odds of winning.
>>46879640
Separate the lands from the spells, so that you play with two decks. Draw a land from the land deck and a card from the spell deck each turn. No more land screw and potentially faster gameplay.
Actually, isn't there a game that does this already?
>>46887272
>Paying more money doesn't further your odds of winning.
are you seriously fucking lobotomized?
buying more expensive cards to WIN, is pay to win, because you can play with cheap shit cards and lose
>>46887305
I think the problem is that playing WITHOUT those cards is ludicrous, thus you have to pay an "entrance cost" if you hope to play. Best to put this in an eternal format, d'oe.
>>46887329
thats still pay to win you retarded nigger
>>46887364
Racing is a pay 2 win sport since cars cost money.
Bicycling is a pay 2 win sport because bicycles cost money.
Golf is a pay 2 win sport because clubs cost money.
Skiing is a pay 2 win sport since skiis cost money.
Poker is a pay 2 win sport since you pay to win.
>>46887275
That just gets rid of the random chance magic has. What's the risk of having to play at a disadvantage or advantage when I'll have the perfect amount of mana I need on every single turn?
>>46887418
>Bicycling is a pay 2 win sport because bicycles cost money.
Those are some nice non-comparisons.
All of those actually require skill, you couldn't pay to win a professional golf game, bike race, poker game, or ski event, or racing event, to save your LIFE.
Magic on the other hand? This anon got it right.
>>46887364
>>46887418
You can have a triple colored deck with 12x dual lands, 8x fetches, and 1 or 3 of each basic land and be so regularly set with mana colors costs that you'll nearly never miss a turn due to having the wrong mana colors in your pool and hand.
>>46887467
And magic requires skill, too! Fancy that.
>>46887424
People don't get how important that is to the game.
Good luck convincing them otherwise.
There's also the stupidity of playing a legacy burn deck with these rules. You can run basically no lands, because you are guaranteed to draw them when you need it. It is essentially starting every player with Abundance in play.
>>46887364
No, that's pay to enter. "Pay to Play". Also, this is cardboard we're talking about, calm down.
Lookie here, if you can make a mono-deck that can somehow utilize rogue-cards to win, that'll help you out. Otherwise, it's possible to play around the cards you can't get (usually good lands, amahright?).
If you can't get expensive rare multilands, you can make a deck that's not acting on turn 1, or just try to build mono.
If you can't afford the staples used in PTs, try to find cards that play well against those, and the weaknesses of the top tier.
If you can't think of how to build decks, look for linear strategies that aren't in use, or look up the format's "rogue decks" on various sights and try them out (they generally use the last two tips).
Better?
Competitive players
>>46887467
Jesus christ, how far is your head up your ass?
So magic requires no skill whatsoever?
When a driver wins a race, people don't go "Oh, Ferrari has so much better cars than Mercedes, he was just P2W".
>>46887418
>Be lance armstrong
>beat anon on most expensive bike in the world
>with a tiny pink tricycle
>>46887488
Net decking isn't really a skill.
All those other games? You can have low-end equipment and seriously compete.
Magic? You have to keep paying a LOT of money, repeatedly, to even have a tiny chance.
Have to flow money in to win.
>>46887275
Ever try holding two hands? Not as easy as it sounds.
Also this: >>46887424
>>46887418
for any of these comparisons to work it needs a huge range of both methodologies
Racing
ricer VS indy 500
irregular dirt track VS paved oval
Bicycling
Child's tricicle vs 21 speed
Infant with muscular distrophy VS juiced pro athelete
Golf
Putput VS Real green
wooden branch VS 9 iron set
Skiing
Mountainside VS hill
Winter VS summer
Poker
This is literally a solved game, and ONLY about the amount of money you bring to the table on average
At this point you are just an incompetent shitposter
>>46887514
Competetive players going against newbies and acting all high and mighty because their carefully brewed and polished control deck destroyed some kids smashed together triple color Timmy deck with all basic lands.
>>46879263
Good. People need to fucking get their heads out of their asses, realize that it's just a hobby, and move on with their lives.
>>46887517
>When a driver wins a race, people don't go "Oh, Ferrari has so much better cars than Mercedes, he was just P2W".
That's literally the comparison I used, anon. That sport is skill based, so they don't chock it up to his car.
Walk into a game store, or this thread, and look at how many people talked about the more expensive decks winning. Then introspect a little.
Your stupid is showing.
>>46887534
Only Standard. It's the only format where that's needed.
Oh, and here's something for you: Go netdeck U/R Storm on Cockatrice, then come back and tell me this game doesn't need skill.
>>46887534
>low end equipment and seriously compete
People actually seriously believe this.
The combination of mythic rares and making commons unambiguous junk removed any desire on my part to ever touch a booster. I was effectively paying for a chance to look at one card I might not even receive.
>>46887602
Oh look, it's the guy with 200$ Nike's beating the Olympians when they're wearing sketchers.
Good comparison, you're sure winning at tricking us into thinking you're a retard.
>>46887147
then don't play standard?
are you aware your cards still exist after they rotate out of a format and that lands can generally be run in any deck?
Are you aware that drafting costs ~$15?
>>46887424
You still have random chance for your spells. And if your deck relies on certain nonbasics, there's still that bit of randomness. Smoothing out the resource system means that people aren't fucked by RNG in the form of mana screw or flood. That, in turn, makes the game even more about skill than luck.
The fact that any deck that isn't 95% mythics/rares/very specific uncommons is complete trash by any Competetive standards. I just want to throw around a bunch of dominator drones, sludge crawlers, and culling drones without someone throwing down languish and wiping the board every other turn.
>>46887672
Nah man. Luck is as major a part of magic as skill is. You can homebrew and house rule whatever you like in your casual group, but don't expect everyone to jump on your fluffy cushion handholding house rules.
>>46887654
Is making a cube of a set worth it?
>>46887569
That's because you're comparing the racecar to the beat up taped-together piece of shit you bought from the used car lot and screaming that skill doesn't matter because the racecar wins, PAY TO WIN PAY TO WIN
>>46887275
kk famalam here's my decklist
4x Lightning Bolt
4X Lava Spike
4x Chain Lightning
4x Simian Spirit Guide
44x Mountain
If I'm on the play I draw 6 cards form my nonland deck and one from my land deck. If I'm on the draw I draw 7 cards from my nonland deck. I win T3-4. How does your casual piece of shit deck compare? Or are you gonna just build something equally degenerate with your dumb fucking idea that every other scrub on this board has had?
>>46887709
I don't think he was talking about it as a house rule, just using it as an opportunity to push Force of Will as an example of a better designed system than magic with a sufficient amount of RNG.
Too bad the cards aren't nearly as developed.
>>46887672
Here is a legacy burn deck. I essentially picked one at random.
18 LANDS
4 Bloodstained Mire
10 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
14 CREATURES
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
26 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Searing Blaze
2 OTHER SPELLS
2 Sulfuric Vortex
SIDEBOARD
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mountain
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens
This is a deck whose curve ends at 3. Now, imagine it with your abundance or two decks rule.
60 card deck could get away with, 5 mountains? 6? And then every turn, it'l draw gas from that point on. Is this something you want?
>>46887722
Nope, if you can read English, I actually am saying the taped-together piece of shit wins because those games are about skill.
See the post you're responding too >>46887569
>That sport is skill based, so they don't chock it up to his car.
Welcome to an English forum. :)
>>46887738
>Force of will
>Literally yugioh except ramp the weaboo to 11
>Better than magic
Top fucking kek
>>46887709
>don't expect everyone to jump on your fluffy cushion handholding house rules
Getting a litle defensive here, aren't we? People are complaining about an aspect of the game that can be considered outdated. This is a possible solution.
One that would require too much reworking for modern WotC R&D, but a solution nonetheless.
>>46887773
It's not better than magic, but it uses Magic's land system if it was intuitive instead of set-up to cause games where you do absolutely nothing.
>>46887753
Again, Magic would require a bit of reworking with a lands deck idea. But I'd rather actually interact with my opponent than sit there and watch him do nothing turn after turn.
>>46887790
>Draw 4 cards from the spell stack
>Cool. All CMC 1 or 2
>Draw and extra from the spell stack and 2 from the land stack.
>First draw use the land stack and you're set for a long time in the game.
>>46887642
Oh look it's the guy in a rowing boat beating a powerboat!
It's like different sports requires different equipment.
>>46887841
I don't like getting mana screwed either, but I feel like people forget that MTG's land system isn't directly binary.
You aren't either mana screwed or have perfect mana. There are levels in between, which is how most games go. Especially with the new mulligan system and proper deckbuilding.
In a game that's all about consistency, not being able to draw gas every turn in important. Sure, in Hearthstone, drawing a Zombie Chow turn 10 is basically like drawing a land, but you can see the issues that having no land cards creates in that game clearly.
Even with a max limit of 2 cards and a billion cards that ensure randomness, people can still make these decks that play the same way every time. Lands help mitigate that.
>>46887063
Yes, that is exactly what pay2win is, thank you.
>>46887905
>Changes the argument about equipment in the same singular sports to comparing multiple sports
Look at his desperation everyone, point and laugh.
>>46887160
>cards can't be an investment for collectors
>nor can stamps
>nor coins
>nor memorabilia
>>46887905
I agree with this.
Magic is like a rowing boat game where you can instead buy a power boat and pay to win over all the rowing losers.
>>46887715
never done it myself but I've heard it absolutely is
>>46888031
I was thinking about it, but I don't know what a good set for it was.
I kinda want to hold out for a Kamigawa successor.
Something that isn't afraid to show that it's really a unique set that doesn't give a shit about fitting in with all the other sets.
>>46888012
so literally every competitive game ever?
You can choose to enter a race with your PoS junker you bought for $400 but don't expect to win and don't expect to get any sympathy from all the other people racing who spent money on their equipment because they actually enjoy their hobby and are willing to invest resources into it.
Go play Chess or Go, or don't because you need to practice to be good at those and if you don't buy a board it's harder to practice so it's pay2win
>>46888099
see
>>46887569
or
>>46887563
It answers your questions, since you don't have any points.
>>46888099
>Comparing Go to Magic.
>Somehow thinks paying money to actively have a greater chance to win in Chess or Go is possible.
>No concept of what the word skill means
People who genuinely think skill doesn't affect who wins in MTG have either never played MTG or are completely delusional.
>>46887994
Fucking older sets card value wouldn't be affected
And no those are not a fucking monetary investment to be cashed in on in the future
>>46888257
Or really fucking bitter that they don't own said deck that beat them and they can't afford.
>>46888257
It's about 10% compared to what cards you are using, probably less.
Of course, deckbuilding skill is 85%, but it is 100% replaceable with netdecking and using that last 5% to pay attention to the meta.
>>46888294
>Bitter that they can't pay enough money to win
>Pay enough to win
>Pay to win
>>46887994
Difference is that those don't have games that are affected by people hoarding the shit.
>>46888367
It's a collectible card game. Who cares if only one person in the world owns every copy of some rare from a set released in 1995. There are a near infinite number of possible deck combinations that function perfectly well without that card.
>>46888424
except all those other combinations are fucked over by the card being hoarded
>>46888367
Irrelevant. I'm not saying that there aren't consequences to collecting said cards, particularly since there is a game still being played. He said the weren't an investment, and is simply wrong.
>>46888282
Yes they are. You invest capital in a product and sell based on demand in the market reflected by price. Trading cards are an investment like any other should you decide to treat them that way.
>>46888453
>He said the weren't an investment, and is simply wrong.
He SHOULDN'T be wrong, and that's the problem.
>Pauper
People that suggest this are either terrible at magic or don't actually play the format. The removal is too good, forcing you to play out tedious grinds. It's also horribly imbalanced, thanks to no one at wizards actually playing the format (lol familiars ban for no reason). And there's price spikes in it too. Granted, it's $40 for 4 copies of a card vs $110 for one, but it's not a good sign since most of the staples are older cards and wizards refuses to print good commons anymore.
It's also strangled by no one unified ruleset. So you might drop money on a deck that some sperg will whine about since it doesn't fit HIS ruleset.
>>46888301
Given that everyone has access to the internet, it is a level playing field. That essentially means that no one has the advantage, so it doesn't really affect the outcome. So, in effect, the person who wins at an MTG tournament is either the luckiest or most skilled person there. Or at least some combination of the two.
Even if I was playing what supposedly is the best deck in format, I would certainly still do poorly in a proper competition. Because most people are playing the best deck in the format or a counter to that deck or a deck that rivals that deck in terms of playability.
>>46888453
goddamn speculator apologist, a fucking card game is not a fucking monetary investment medium through bubble manipulation
go kill yourself
>>46888486
I thought its ruleset was the MTGO ruleset?
Did that new surge goblin not do anything? I swore they printed some really saucy commons lately. Like, I've seen a lot of creep in terms of commons.
>>46888488
nigger its not a balanced paying field when all the advantage is money based
not everyone can or would blow 2 grand on cards every 8 months
>>46888448
So burn is not viable because someone hoarded needle drop?
>>46888488
>Even if I was playing what supposedly is the best deck in format, I would certainly still do poorly in a proper competition.
That's just because of the amount of RNG.
You could just as easily place top 8 if you were competent.
>>46888493
>>46888476
It clearly is. Just because you care more about playing than collecting doesn't mean you are more right.
Honestly, people flip out over investing in MTG, but can you really be angry at people who want to make money? Money is certainly more important to most people than the state of a card game.
>>46888532
>hoarding needle drop
>needle drop fucking over anything
nigger wat
>>46888301
how is card selection/evaluation not a skill?
If MtG is so easy why do proplayers consistently win? It sure as shit isn't because they spend the most money
>>46888476
>>46888493
There's no issue with any product becoming an investment simply because you don't want it to. If there's a demand for it, prices rise to the point buyer is willing to spend and seller is willing to part. It's how the fucking free market works, dipshits. Just because you want cards cheap and aren't willing to spend money for them, doesn't mean that said cards don't have a worth beyond your individual desires. Nor do you get to decide the reason for said worth, whether it be the power of the card, the rarity of the card, a misprint, historical significance, a signature from the artist, the quality of the art, etc.
>>46888571
the fucking consumers PLAYING the game are the foundation of the whole fucking game's sale you idiot
fucking them over now fucks the economy in the long run, because interest will wane, and its not a necessity forcing people to buy it
>>46888520
They are upping the power of commons now, but they're still nowhere near the power of older commons.
This is the first common to ever have self recursionfrom what I'm toldbut it's still nowhere near the level of a lot of older shit.
>>46888571
>people who collect pieces of A GAME are just as legit as people who want to play it
Imagine if some asshole decided to go and buy all the vowels of Scrabble sets except "U"s. That's what it's like trying to play Legacy without dual lands. It's fucking stupid and it's stupid that you're defending it.
>>46888577
I wasn't the guy who claimed that someone hoarding every single copy of one card would fuck over every single deck in the game.
>>46888609
>free market
its a fucking speculator controlled market, this shit is no where near equilibrium prices, and there's another thread right now which clearly points out that this stranglehold is fucking killing mtg
>>46888571
I don't think there's much point in explaining it to them. They want any/all cards to be cheap no matter the reason, regardless of market forces. It's a typical case of "gib me dats", and I doubt they limit their entitlement mentality to cards.
>>46888538
>even if you play the objectively best deck in the format you'll probably lose because RNG
>You could easily win every tournament if you were skilled enough
