Ignoring the standard fantasy tropes, wouldn't elves hate gunpowder weapons because of how loud they are? If humans go deaf from using them through their short life elves with their better hearing and much longer lives probably wouldn't like them very much.
But then what else would they use after other races start making gunpowder weapons? Advanced crossbows? Air guns? Steam guns?
>>46778365
Maybe whatever lets them live so long also helps repair damage to delicate structures like the inner ear, so they can recover from the hearing damage over time. Elves tend to have some form of advanced healing in a lot of stories, not true regeneration but things like healing without scars, so it could apply here.
>>46778365
> Advanced crossbows? Air guns? Steam guns?
Seems easier to just wear hearing protection.
>>46778526
I was thinking the same thing. Considering it is a fantasy world I would like to think certain technology came much sooner in an effort to survive in such an environment. Humans may have already invented the ear protection and since they are always allied with Elves, they could share the technology.
Either that or the Elves developed a spell to keep their ears safe.
>>46778365
They would probably either use magic or something to protect their hearing, stick to their old tactics for as long as possible while coming up with ways to negate the advantages of firearms, or just hire mercenaries to use guns for them.
Considering the usual story of Elves slowly dying out, I would go with the third. Let humans fight for you. Either through money, or go full Turk and just use slaves loyal to Elves before their own race.
I wonder if the standard line infantry tactic would even take off in a fantasy world.
One wizard casts a mist cloud or something and your precious musketeer regiment is pretty much useless.
>>46778754
That and tossing a fireball at a musketeer formation ignites their blackpowder and kill almost an entire squad.
>>46778754
>100 muskets firing into a cloud where enemies are sure to be behind/in
>any effect on the already shitty accuracy of the musket
You already just pointed the things in the enemies' general direction and fired, a bit of fog doesn't change that.
Actually, I too have an elf question
If elves are really ageless, but are still just as sturdy and formidable as a well-built human; how do they live past 100 years?
The #1 killer in medieval and roman times wasn't old age or chronic disease, it was plague, famine, and fires. ESPECIALLY fires in an era where lots of people lived in a single dwelling and used lamps and kerosene for heating and light.
The fire alarm has saved more people than penicillin, and I'm supposed to believe hippy elves who live in trees can somehow survive over 100 years without a forest fire or the new flu variant claiming them?
>>46778754
>>46778859
>>46778846
Asking about "how well does X compare to magic in a fantasy world" is a waste of time. Fantasy worlds do not have any set rules. If it's a low fantasy setting where wizards are either powerful but rare or common but relatively weak, swords and bullets will still carry the day most of the time. If the opposite is true, wizards are going to rule the world.
>>46778972
They obviously don't live in pathetic conditions like lowly humans.
>>46779178
Pathetic or not, wood is wood and fire is fire. Plus I don't think I've heard lore where elves are immune to all disease.
unless we want to start making lore about Elf Fire Inspectors and expert Doctors.
>>46778972
Elves aren't just hurr durr hippies; they are one with nature. Their immune system eats black plague for breakfast. Their bond with forest lets them see where large concentrations of withered trees are and avoid those places. Their digestive system and hunting are extremely efficient - each part of the animal is used, and one meal lasts elf for a week.
>>46779417
>Plus I don't think I've heard lore where elves are immune to all disease.
I'm pretty sure TES wood elves were immune to diseases and toxins.
>>46779436
But nature = plague, disease, and filth. The concept of fighting these things is a human one in itself.
Not to mention, still doesn't answer how they avoid things like fire and famine. Most elves do cook, right? And they also eat, right?
>>46779486
did you even read my post
>>46779555
Of course, but it makes no sense. Elves still cook and they still eat. So a dieoff of a local wildlife type should affect them just as often as any human. As well as fires caused by lightning or out-of-control cooking.
Unless we're going to argue that they're fire-resistant, too.
>>46779480
Didn't know that, I don't follow TES.
>>46779436
What lore are you talking about? I don't think I've seen them portrayed as anything other than either indigenous savages or magically-pumped steroids high-elves.
>>46779486
>But nature = plague, disease, and filth
Nope. Small hunter gatherer communities generally lived in better condition than people in overcrowded medieval cities.
They were taller, healthier and lived longer.
>>46779697
>Nope. Small hunter gatherer communities generally lived in better condition than people in overcrowded medieval cities.
Stopped reading there.
You probably believe disease is a modern thing, too.
>>46778972
>The fire alarm has saved more people than penicillin, and I'm supposed to believe hippy elves who live in trees can somehow survive over 100 years without a forest fire or the new flu variant claiming them?
Believe what you want.
Now that I think about it, if elf bows are something on the level of modern compound bows they would be quite considerably better than early muskets.
A 400fps bow would be much better in everything that's not short range armor penetration.
>>46779697
>They were taller, healthier and lived longer.
We have modern hunter-gather societies today that aren't like that.
They're short, emaciated pygmies that have tiny lifespans and spend their years competing against bacteria for food scraps.
Elves are probably way different, but come on. Don't even start with that.
>>46779742
Go and read an actual book on the subject.
>>46779811
Same to you. Or better yet, read some modern sociology.
>>46779800
>>46779800
You do know that Amazonian Indians live longer on average than mediaval Europeans did right?
Average life span in Roman Empire was 25 years. 30 years during Medieval. It's 43 years for the most remote Amazonian tribes.
>>46779859
>You do know that Amazonian Indians live longer on average than mediaval Europeans did right?
>43 years for Amazonian tribes
Completely incorrect. This only became true when contact was made with them and they learned the value of medicine.
>>46779643
Well, i was trying to justify elves living in forests and not just being pointy-eared stupid people. Because that shit is dumb. If you're going to have a race with connection to forests, give them actual fucking connection to forests.
>>46779613
Very rarely will WHOLE wildlife type die. Seriously, you should fuck up spectacularly for that to happen. And as long as forest is there and is not on fire, there will ALWAYS be something to eat - forests are amazingly diverse and sturdy ecosystems. With slow birth rates and no need for much food, elves do not tax ecosystem as hard as other races.
Forest fires do happen, but much more rarely than you think, especially if there are people overseeing the forest. Living wood is not that flammable, and majority of forest fires happens in dry weather or if there's a lot of dead vegetation. Magical forest people overseeing the forestwould further reduce the risk of major fire.
Also, i know it's a cop-out, but magic. Elves DO use magic and are traditionally good at it.
>>46779885
43 is for the tribes that have literally no contact with modern civilization other few dudes with cameras once every 5 years.
>>46778754
You'd have other wizards to counter those wizards, of course. They'd be early information warfare units!
Elves would hate gunpowder anyway because it's made with charcoal
>>46779941
>>46779859
This is actually a myth. Amazon parasites will fuck you right up.
http://www.tropical-rainforest-facts.com/Amazon-Rainforest-Facts/Amazon-Rainforest-Tribe-Facts.shtml
It only increased to 43 years within the last few centuries as concepts like vaccinations became known to them.
And yes, those dudes with cameras bring things like medicine with them as they travel. Not to mention the dozens of outreach programs from things like missionaries which have had wildly successful effects on their lifestyles.
Actual, undocumented tribes lived closer to their medieval counterparts.
>>46778365
Elves do Hate them. In fact they refuse to use them and that is why they are dieing off.
dwarves love them because elves Hate them, and they don't mind the hearing loss since they were to stubborn to ever listen anyway.
>>46779980
No, fuck, I didn't mean to quote the wizard guy. I meant to quote the other guy
>>46779938
>>46779885
>From studying the remains of Paleolithic cultures and the life patterns of modern hunter-gatherers, researchers have concluded that human mortality fit to a U-shaped curve. Infancy and childhood were dangerous, but if you survived to 15, you could expect a reasonable lifespan: mortality rates started to increase again at around 40, doubling at 60 and again at 70. Gurven and Kaplan found that the modal (most common) age of death for hunter-gatherers who survived past 15 was 72. Taking out the infant mortality rate, Stephen Guyenet found that the average lifespan of one Inuit group was 43.5, with 25% of the population living past 60
>>46780011
Is that why dwarves are dying off faster than elves?
>>46780043
So I searched that and couldn't actually find a source on it. Could I get a link?
>>46780068
They are also to stubborn for safety
>>46780043
> Paleolithic cultures
We're talking about tribes living in the Amazons. I even mentioned tribes uncontacted in the Amazons. I don't know where you brought this into it, because it has no place in this discussion.
>>46778365
I'd imagine if they were advanced enough Elves would be the sort to adopt something like the Girandoni air rifle
>>46779800
there's a serious vein of thought in anthropology that hunter-gatherers had a better standard of living in many respects than early agriculturalists.
keep in mind that modern hunter-gatherers are not in the best position, given that they are confined to living in the areas which civilized people haven't bothered to settle, compared to the days when they could roam over large areas with far more animals to hunt.
but this theory is not universally accepted and i'm pretty sure "early agriculturalists" doesn't extend as far as the medieval era.
>>46780140
H&G societies have a much higher infant mortality rate. But once you survive that you can live pretty damn long.
They live much longer and healthier lives than your average Roman or medieval peasant.
Every study shows that.
>>46780140
>>46780098
>>46780081
>>46780043
>>46779980
we're also talking not about pygmies, but about immortal magical forestdudes.
Just saiyan.I actually really dislike the whole "primitive hunter gatherer elves" thing. It's a dumb fantasy "balancing" that makes less and less sense the more you think of it.
>>46780043
I just went and peeked in my Encyclopaedia of Population (2003) and found this:
>average life expectancy for prehistoric humans was estimated at just 20 – 35 years; in Sweden in the 1750s it was 36 years; it hit 48 years by the 1900s in the USA; and in 2007 in Japan, average life expectancy was 83 years.
So I guess you have a greentext, and I have a book I can't scan. so we're at an impasse.
>>46780140
But on the other hand, they don't have beer, so it's six-of-one, half-a-dozen the other in my book
>>46780207
>Every study shows that
Yet you haven't posted any. Most evidence posted in the thread in the form of links and cited articles states the opposite.
Before we ruin this thread further, want to just drop the argument?
>>46780217
>in Sweden in the 1750s it was 36 years
So still much worse than average lifespan of completely isolated Amazonian tribes.
>>46780237
>Most evidence posted in the thread in the form of links and cited articles states the opposite.
You mean one? Talking about a group living in literally the worst possible place on Earth?
>>46780254
>So still much worse than average lifespan of completely isolated Amazonian tribes.
No, because their lifespans in the Amazon was roughly 25-30 years before contact was made.
Making contact with a civilization is a pretty huge thing. It means you can trade for useful inventions instead of having to soldier through with whatever you find in the jungle.
>>46780237
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/papers/GurvenKaplan2007pdr.pdf
>>46780276
>You mean one? Talking about a group living in literally the worst possible place on Earth?
Two, maybe three. Better than a bunch of greentext and hypothetical.
Also, we were talking about elves. Who would live in the conditions similar to the Amazon.
>>46780286
Except for the fact that for those people contact with "civilization" means getting shot with AK's by drug cartels.
There are still tribes living with literally 0 access to modern medicine.
>>46780342
>Except for the fact that for those people contact with "civilization" means getting shot with AK's by drug cartels.
Every post you make seems to spin some wild strawman about the noble savage being eaten alive by evil technology. You want me to believe anything you've posted is accurate?
Still didn't counter why Amazon lifespans increased after contact was made. Or why surrounding countries which are developed have higher lifespans.
If you're just going to make more strawmen, you can just stop responding.
>>46780098
>it has no place in this discussion.
>about elves
>>46780374
Read: >>46780305
An actual study by actual scientists and not some blog shit.
>>46780342
>There are still tribes living with literally 0 access to modern medicine.
And, as expected, they're malnourished and maybe live to only 30.
http://www.npr.org/sections/talk/2008/06/uncontacted_amazon_tribes.html
>>46780403
I doubt you even read that article.
I googled sited articles and found two counter arguments to that one which listed it in work cited.
https://www.oumedicine.com/docs/default-source/ad-geriatrics-workfiles/a-biological-perspective-on-longevity.pdf?sfvrsn=0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010320/
Go on, pretend to read them when you really didn't.
>>46780381
It doesn't, elves wouldn't live like paleolithic plains hunters, we're talking about amazon tribes.
Again, no one has countered my argument and prefers to shit up the thread. So maybe I'll just quit responding.
>>46780430
You do realize that everything you posted agree that they live longer than Romans and Medieval Europeans right?
And significantly longer at that.
Yes, they live shorter than modern Americans. What a shocking surprise.
>>46780469
>You do realize that everything you posted agree that they live longer than Romans and Medieval Europeans right?
It's a counter so no it didn't. It mentions it in passing in the abstract.
Again, pretend to read them when you really didn't.
>>46780081
I found it here:
http://paleoleap.com/why-cavemen-didnt-die-young/
>>46780522
Thank you.
>>46780490
Average life expectancy for hunter gatherers living in the most remote and harsh parts of Earth was 35 years.
In XIV century England it was 29 years.
>>46778365
I'm think with how elves, or at least high elves in most setting have everything to the standard of perfection and in general are massive pricks I can imagine an elven sniper bragging to someone else about how he spent a week making each and every bullet absolutely perfect in every way, and a human or dwarf machinegun crew calling the elf a pretentious cunt as they haul their gun and thousands of bullets.
>>46780522
>P.S. Have a look at Paleo Restart, our 30-day program. It lets you jump into Paleo, lose weight and start feeling great.
>+ Our cookbook, the Paleo Recipe Book, is also available. It's a cookbook we've created to help you eat delicious Paleo food.
Call me skeptical, but I'm not really trusting that article for a number of reasons.
>>46780562
_/(``/)\_
I wonder if they would eventually switch to advanced crossbows.
>>46780543
Citation needed, most articles pin it at 25-30 unless it's a paleo blog.
Longshot away from the myth that they live healthier, longer lifestyles.
>>46778754
In more of a high fantasy style setting line infantry probably wouldn't be as common, as a battle wizard would be highly effective against line infantry formation. Light infantry tactics would probably be more favorable as with the unit spread out more. While the firepower isn't quite as concentrated it limits the damage done by spells, similar to avoiding heavy casualties from artillery. Even then I'm sure given enough time someone would find a way for line infantry to adapt when confronted by a wizard.
>>46780637
Crossbows are fun, but let's not conflate them with guns.
Besides, repeating crossbows would be a vastly superior solution to compound.
>>46780744
>repeating crossbows would be a vastly superior solution to compound
All those fantasy repeating crossbows you seen in novels and RPG books are a joke that would be utterly useless in real combat.
>>46780671
Hell, a bunch of elf archers would be crazy effective against line infantry.
They have no armor, are tightly packed and can't hit shit beyond 50m.
>>46778365
>wouldn't elves hate gunpowder weapons because of how loud they are?
I really like this, even if we ignore the slowly going deaf because of natural Elven magic or general healing magic. I think I'll use it in my next steam punk styled game.
>>46778433
True of Tolkien's elves.
>>46778972
Tolkien's elves (who are actually the only elves in fiction I can think of that are actually ageless) are practically immune to disease. They use something like magic to grow their food, to protect it from disease or to predict diseases, they don't grow fields of monocultures, and also use something like magic to preserve food, and finally they also intentionally maintained a thin, widely spread population that was more resistant to hazards to their food sources. The tree houses that have become famous are not primary dwellings. They work and live in stone because when one lives for hundreds of years, a log building is a temporary shelter. I'm not sure how much Tolkien knew about forestry and fire cycles, but it's pretty evident that the woods they typically occupied were not ones that burned down regularly.
>>46779172
A lot of authors (not saying I agree with them, just that a lot do it) that do "magic is common" settings go with the "army wizards mostly just cancel each other out," cop out.
>>46780795
This is a real, functioning weapon.
>>46780562
While modern "paleo" diets are healthier than the standard American burgerfest, they're also horribly unrealistic, and the diet pushers are really cultist.
Cavemen ate whatever they could get, which lead to a balanced diet in balanced environments.
>>46780562
Most paleo books are just plain bullshit. The big issue I have with these "paleo" books is that they almost all mix and match food from across the continents. As well as mixing in vegetables that are modern creations.
Hunter-gatherer diets were based on what they could get. In the Iberian Peninsula there are areas where basically the local groups almost ate just fish and deer. Neanderthal groups were for the longest time considered obligate carnivores before evidence was found that they occasionally ate grains and roots.
>>46780140
There's actually a theory that we were forced into agriculture due to overpopulation because we were just too fucking good at hunting and gathering for our own good. We depleted our food supply and had to start figuring out how to grow our own.
>>46779800
>>46779697
>>46779742
As much as I fucking hate the "paleo" tards (it might be an okay diet, it's not even kind of how paleolithic humans actually ate), and the whole hippy back-to-nature bullshit, it's true that pre-agricultural humans were definitely healthier than agricultural humans were for a very very long time. They got a good amount of high quality exercise and ate a very balanced diet. When humanity started farming is when they started working dawn to dusk and eating a poor low variety diet, and hanging around with large cramped herds of animals that became a perfect reservoir of diseases and parasites waiting to mutate and infect humans. But it's also how our population exploded and we started getting specialization, quality goods, and leisure activities other than lying in the shade trying not to starve to death.
It is NOT true that hunter gatherers were healthier than modern first world humans (more physically robust maybe, because we still don't get enough exercise, and also they probably had better tooth health compared to the lamentably under-dental-insured US people). Sanitation, anti-biotics, and industrial farming
Modern hunter gatherers are unhealthy because they've been pushed out of all the high quality land on which ancient hunter-gatherers would've hunted and gathered.
>>46780840
It also has a short range and low power, utterly useless against any sort of armor. Its bolts are more like oversized darts.
>>46778365
>But then what else would they use after other races start making gunpowder weapons? Advanced crossbows? Air guns? Steam guns?
Earplugs.
>>46781124
Followed shortly thereafter by their own gunpowder weapons.
ITT we name characters from various forms of media and other anons say what Dungeons and dragons class they would be
I'll start: Bilbo Baggins
Pic semi related
>>46778365
Gunpowder weapons, crossbows, these things are too loud, mechanical, and not eloquent enough for the elves.
They would probably make some sort of pseudo-magical firearm instead, maybe something that fires off condensed air vibrations formed through some magical crystal bullshit, or just plain old lasers.
>>46781066
>Modern hunter gatherers are unhealthy because they've been pushed out of all the high quality land on which ancient hunter-gatherers would've hunted and gathered.
This isn't actually true, and runs counter to evidence from prior times.
Modern hunter gathers are unhealthy because of their environment. The ones who remain undiscovered and undisturbed aren't living in ideal living conditions to begin with. Jungles are breeding grounds for parasites, fungi, and bacteria. It's part of why all the pictures of completely isolated tribes which were recently discovered shows them extremely stout and emaciated.
>>46778365
FUCKING LASERS
>>46778365
elves would just use ear protection or suppressors.
Elves would still be surprisingly likely to use bows, but this depends on the birth rate. If you do the math there aren't going to be all that many super old elves -- you're going to have the majority of elves probably be about 42 instead of 21 like humans, or whatever.
>>46778972
They aren't going to really care about fires as much as people due to superior vision.
You're also going to have to find a setting where:
1. Elves don't have magic
2. Experience doesn't equal power (HUGE advantage for elves)
3. Elves also don't have superior physiques
There are close to no settings where disease would be a factor.
>>46779417
Not necessarily immune to all disease but Birthright, AD&D and Tolkien. 4e's motto is LOL I DUNNO so its not really a factor and in 3e elves are ROLLING in mid to high level characters of nature type classes.
>>46780011
>short people who spend their whole lives in dark caves at close quarters in charge of long ranged combat
>instead of tall guys with great eyesight who spend their whole lives hunting and sniping
Ok
>>46780442
>elves wouldn't live like paleolithic plains hunters
they might
>>46778365
do you even Silence?
People always tend to forget the logistics and economy of things.
Sure, you can have wizards, but it takes a shitload of skill, training and time to be one, plus the overall cost of forbidden tomes, reagents, magical items, alchemical laboratories, expensive robes and foreboding towers to sulk in. Or you can just draft a couple thousand guys, hand them pikes and muskets, drill them for a week or two and you have an extremely cheap and reasonably useful army who can do all sorts of wondrous stuff like forming lines ot battle, skirmish, garrison forts, assault forts, build breastworks, put down riots, pillage lands, forage, crew ships if needed and most importantly of all, hold land. Magic may or may not do these. Plus you dont have to constantly worry about the loyalty of a wizard, if anyone in your army decides to defect the effects will be far less serious.
>>46780140
Yeah but the thing is, H&Gs always lose out to agriculturals on the long run.
>more food
>more humans
>more soldiers
>>46782678
I'd generally be inclined to think the logistics on one wizard is more convenient than the logistics on the aforementioned thousand guys, personally.
Its also easier to get to know one guy than 1000 guys.
Don't get me wrong, fighting men have a role in fantasy. But I don't think its going to be anything even remotely resembling armies of one shot wonders, if you're going to bother with hordes of melee dudes they are probably going to be the best of the best, not the worst of the worst as say D&D almost universally assumes.
Of course, AD&D has different ideas on this sort of thing (level 1-4 monsters can grievously threaten level 9 wizards, for sure, in 1e)
>>46783060
> the logistics on one wizard is more convenient than the logistics on the aforementioned thousand guys
No its not.
>Its also easier to get to know one guy than 1000 guys.
You dont "get to know" them, you draft them.
You are really not getting the whole concept and still thinking in 4man party adventures.
>>46783060
>>46782678
Also, in, say, Zelazny or Moorcock's work, they do have characters who are of great power but who can be mortally imperiled by being outnumbered and alone, so in some fantasy genre "mooks" are hardly pushovers if you're alone and surrounded.
>>46783305
>No its not.
You have to get a thousand bodies from point A to point C, which requires you to take a thousand people from point A, and a thousand people to point B, while having food wagons and waste disposal and fresh water issues and etcetera. Sounds vastly harder -- even if wizards have to walk in a given setting.
>You dont "get to know" them, you draft them.
Largely useless unless your enemies are as criminally incompetent as you.
>You are really not getting the whole concept and still thinking in 4man party adventures.
I get the concept, it sounds largely dumb. You have to deal with:
1. Undead that can turn your mans into their mans.
2. Werebeasts that can turn your mans into their mans.
3. Enchanters/sirens/what have you that can turn your mans into their mans.
4. Changelings/doppelgangers/succubi etc. that can move among your guys at will.
5. Shadow demons/ghosts/puppeteers etc. that can move among your guys at will, take them over at will and might even move from host to host.
6. Big monsters that your roving band of drafted retards can't scratch and that will squish them flat en masse.
7. Big monsters that fly around and breathe fire on your roving band of drafted retards to burn them to a crisp.
8. Of course, professionals which will invariably eat your roving band of drafted retards for breakfast.
9. Everyone will know where you will turn up, a long time in advance.
10. Foes can attack your supply trains at will, unless you divide your forces further.
Seems like a giant blob of failure waiting to happen.
>>46783514
>You have to get a thousand bodies from point A to point C, which requires you to take a thousand people from point A, and a thousand people to point B
People have these things called legs
>while having food wagons and waste disposal and fresh water issues and etcetera
The medieval times called, foraging is a thing.
You must be trolling on purpose. No one can be this dumb.
>>46783685
Sorry anon, disagreeing with you isn't "trolling."
Generally adding thousands of points of failure to a plan because you think it might be cheaper really isn't a good idea.
>>46781066
>>46781348
Well all this discussion is interesting and all, it really doesn't matter though. Why? Because all modern elves are portrayed as magical. You really can't be one with nature if you are augmented by magic.
The hunter and gatherer Humans weren't magical. So you really cannot use hunter and gatherer human society as reference for Elven hunter and gatherer society. One has magic to aid them and the other does not. Unless you get rid of the magic for Elves, in which case Elves stop being Elves and become more of Humans with pointy ears.
>>46784296
>You really can't be one with nature if you are augmented by magic.
that's retarded
>>46786027
It's not his point. The point is that Elves are helped by magic to always be in full health, whatever their environment be ; except maybe Mordor-like.
Vitamins deficiency, salt deficiency, etc are things that happens, anon. It's not fatal everytime.
Elves juste have a plot convenience to obtain anything they need for their bodies.
>>46778972
Technically, the forest they live in would have to be near a biome edge, in a hotter area of land, and most importantly have relatively low precipitation at some point through seasons. Once you walk deep into a real life forest that covers more than 100 hectares, the whole place feels mossy and damp, especially if the foliage is thick.
Essentially why all the notable rain forests are so large and have been thriving for so long; their natural predators, like fire, are virtually non-existent. Though, some have been cut down in the past 500 years I guess...
>>46788127
The fuckkind of mental machinery is going on in your head to take that input and put out this output?
>>46783758
>Generally adding thousands of points of failure to a plan because you think it might be cheaper really isn't a good idea.
There's a lot more than just a thousand points of failure to a plan that hinges entirely on the power of a single mortal person.
