why don't people play hero system anymore?
>>46763369
Because they've gotten scared by the amount of math and tend to equate lots of factors with a poorly put together system.
>>46763742
its not that bad though. all the formulas are on the sheet or given to you right out of the book
>>46763854
Doesn't matter. Give people a lot of shit to look at and keep track of and they'll panic and call it a bad game, no matter how simply you lay out the formulae.
>>46763369
Because we were able to get M&M sooner and didn't feel like it would be worth it to switch. Convince me we were wrong.
>>46763885
the main reason i think its a good game is the fact how its well balanced from superheroes to westerns to space adventures
>>46763885
Honestly, if M&M works for you, then stick with it.
The HERO System is a lot crunchier. It doesn't have the vague distance/weight/time values that M&M has, is just puts them down as hard limits. There's so much more crunch and rules. It's very solid in that factor, but it can be tricky to get them to learn.
The main reason to switch from M&M to HERO would be if you want versatility. HERO is by far the most versatile system out there right now, with rules covering every possibility you could think of, including ones that the book outright admits are insanely broken and that GMs should consider carefully before allowing player characters to have them.
It also has rulings for their disadvantages. Rather than listing a complication and having to make mechanics yourself, almost any disadvantage you could want is listed in HERO's pages somewhere, allowing you as the player to decide just how weak you get from kryptonite exposure and how fast it happens.
>>46764210
>hard limits.
Did they take out pushing or something? Because pushing is one of the things that made Champions awesome. Also knockback and casual strength through objects while under the effects of knockback.
A lot of the dice mechanics and rules are very consistent, which I like.
>>46764539
I phrased it poorly. It's late and I should probably be in bed. I meant more along the lines of like. How HERO/Champions can narrow down exact measurements rather than the Measurements Table that M&M has that makes it so rank is twice as heavy, long, high, or massive as the last rank.
HERO system just feels a lot more convoluted. Twelve-tick initiative system, having to do an attack roll that you can only critically fail for AoE, two different ways to roll damage, two different types of armor-piercing damage, and so on - it's not that bad once you get used to it, but it feels like they were adding crunch just for the sake of adding crunch.
>>46764827
but if you want to, you can just remove all of that from the campaign
>>46764883
Yes, but if you're trying to sell a system by saying "you can just ignore the parts you don't like," the obvious rebuttal is "why not play a system that doesn't have those parts?" It's like those people who can't play anything but 3.X but try to balance martials and mages - I'd rather just play something playable out of the box.
>>46764827
The twelve tick initiative was nice for speedsters, though.
>>46763885
because M&M is a broken pile of shit
>>46764940
There are few joys in life greater than playing a speed 8 guy against some chucklefuck who's only speed 4
>>46764939
Hero is quite playable out of the box (though it hasn't come in one since 2e). The calcs are all front loaded into character creation, and can be mostly ignored by playing powers straight or with very few mods.
What I had some trouble with was convincing a couple players that the character sheet NEEDS to show your work.
>>46765127
M&M read to me, at least back in 1e, like a quick and funky attempt to convert Hero to D20, while also pushing D20 out of its comfort zone.
(M&M is the start of what would later become True20.)
>>46763369
the only thing I enjoyed about Hero was 3d6
>>46765698
Conversely, I keep considering an attempt to convert HERO to a dice pool/roll and keep system
>>46764827
>Twelve-tick initiative system
You can sort of think of it as characters with multiple attacks and/or a speed spell in DnD. It's just kind of interleaved.
>having to do an attack roll that you can only critically fail for AoE
Only critically fail? I'm not following you on that one. There's a lower chance of getting a result of 3 on 3d6 compared to a 1 on a d20 and hitting a hex in the Hero System is pretty easy.
>two different ways to roll damage
The dice are easy to read with an explanation that takes maybe 30 seconds. One of the reasons the two types exist is because some weapons will stun and render you unconscious more easily compared to others, which will have a higher chance of killing you outright. eg: a club versus a bullet.
>two different types of armor-piercing damage
Are you talking about actual AP versus a "No Normal Defense," or something else?
NND operates on a different concept and a few different damage and defense types add a bit of flavor to the game.
>feels like they were adding crunch just for the sake of adding crunch.
and
>>46764939
Removing/restricting/limiting/whatever elements in the system is actually sometimes standard since it's meant to be a system that could be applied to different genres and such.
>>46763369
never heard of it
Too much effort for not enough gain.
Character generation is crunchy, but the crunch doesn't really enter into the actual enjoyment of gameplay, compared to what people like about, say, DnD3e and 4e, or Exalted.
>>46763369
Because anyone who wants a crunchy game with a lot of modularity will go with GURPS, simply because it's *just* simpler enough to make it easier to understand.
I've read through, but not played, HERO and it's pretty cool. But I'll still stick with GURPS because of that reason.
I play it. Almost every Saturday since 1982. I have a collection of homebrew campaigns whose guidebooks run into the hundreds of pages. Its amazing.
>>46767720
>GURPS
>easier
This is how you identify a retard, people. Somehow Steve Jackson made his HERO knockoff (he explicitly cites CHAMPIONS) more complicated and bloated while trying to slim it down.
Tried once. The pdf I had gave no example stats. How much speed does a normal person have? What's a good recommendation for a newbie if trying to make a 'basic' force field?
It's far too easy to make very basic mistakes with a character.
I don't let players make mistakes. Every sword, every spell, all companion animal, magic item, monster, summonable critter, blaster pidtol, mount ANYTHING is prestatted for their use. It's like playing Pathfindrr, but in HERO.
>>46769511
To be honest gurps is only complicated because sheer amount of extra material and crunchy character creation. Basic rules (see: GURPS Lite) aren't very complicated.
>>46769535
Most normal humans will have stats between 5-10. There's a chart on it in a few versions, I think. Look for Character Ability Guidlines in the books, they should be fairly early on, and you'll see a list of sample stats ranging from an weak/disabled/incompetent normal to a cosmic force.
>>46766070
>dice pool/roll and keep
How the fuck...
>>46765666
Specifically, it feels like Champions New Millennium, the edition of Champions no one liked.
>>46767720
>>46769511
GURPS is built for "Heroic Normals",and has always had trouble scaling up to Super range. Including Super Tech, where the numbers you juggle are ridiculous.
Hero was built with Supers as the center of the scale. It is a little too granular for "normals" in some respects as a result.
>>46769834
Hero at its base isn't complicated either. Just like GURPS, it is all about what you use and what you don't use.
>>46770246
Hero has always (except back in 1e in the late 70s) defined Normal characteristic ranges. The Primaries are, for a milquetoast Average Dude, between 8 and 12, the Secondaries derive from those with very few additional points.
Build a character on 25/25 with the Normal Characteristic Maximums in place and no Powers except via Foci. Normal Dude.
I'm considering running HERO for my group, where I make the characters for them and they just play. They can handle D&D 4E and Dark Heresy, how complicated is HERO in play?
>>46763880
>>46772180
I have one beef with this PDF.
What the FUCK is "OAF" supposed to be?
>>46772234
It's in the rules. Obvious Accessable Focus. Basically, it's something you channel a power through that's both obvious and can be taken away from you. Like a wizard's staff, a gun, a sword, something like that.
>>46772276
Ah, okay.
>>46772102
You can run DCV as public or secret, like AC.
Same with skill rolls.
3d6 Hero math becomes instinctive at about the same speed as any other game.
Player knows that an 11- is needed to hit matched CV. His character has an ACV of 8, he rolls a 9. "I hit DCV 10".
PC has "Perception 14-" but does not know the mods you have in place for the situation. He rolls a 12. "Made Perception by 2". You know you have a -3 in place for his set of senses. "You see nothing unusual".
Damage rolls also become instinctive.
Rolls 10 dice (1,2,2,3,3,4,5,5,6,6). That's (counting) 37 STUN, and (since he knows he rolled 10 dice, and has one '1' and two '6' results, has one more BODY than dice) 11 BODY.
In play, that's the dice in all but a few edge cases. Knowing the options available for each action and what those options do for you is pretty much any RPG. HERO puts them on the character sheet in most editions, so memorization isn't even needed.
Ref runs the speed chart.
>>46772234
References are still just references. Built ONE character from the rulebook and that reference page will all make sense.
>>46772332
>1,2,2,3,3,4,5,5,6,6
I know it seems sill,y but in my experience adding this many dice SIGNIFICANTLY slows down gameplay
>>46772180
Reading this doesn''t really tell me how it "feels" to play
Trying to think of a good way to explain
Do people tend to spend a lot of time thinking about what to do?
>>46772723
At first it can be slow, yes. But as you get used to it, it's not any slower than any other RP. The first time I played, the group started off hesitant, but by the end of the session it was going about as fast as our D&D games.
>>46772775
>it was going about as fast as our D&D games.
Unless your D&D games were unusually fast, it's what I'd consider slow (I would estimate the average round of D&D takes 15-20 minutes, sometimes up to a half hour)
I want a system where, once people know what they are doing, it is possible for a GM and five players to get through a round in...say 10 minutes?
>>46772824
Wow. Yeah, no. Our average D&D round was more like ten to fifteen minutes, depending on the size of the combat.
Now, if you're playing online, it's going to be different.
>>46772856
I'll be running face to face.
Does HERO still use half dice?
>>46773685
Yes, it does.
