Why do people here hate Dungeon World so much?
Shit game, shittier community.
>>46757889
Explain. How is it a shit game? I haven't played it, but so far from what I've read it seems like one of the better "simple" rpgs. I loath rules heavy rpgs, to me they are waste of time. I don't care about "community" because I play with my friends and family members.
For me, it's the general conceit of the game (and pretty much all AW based games). Can't even finish reading the damn thing. Does the same thing any number of games do, but they present it like it's the best thing since sex.
>>46757919
>>>46757928
Pretentious piece of shit whose author think he's GOD because he wrote it. Avoid it like hell.
Gigantic, shitty book. Poorly organized, renames basic concepts (repeatedly) to only pretend to be different, extremely verbose for simple terms, extremely bad explanations.
If you don't believe me, then why is there a second book just to help explain what the fuck they were talking about it in the first one?
For a game that masquerades as a 'simpler' RPG focused on roleplay, it fails in every way.
This is without looking at the community, because every game has a bad community.
Hipster bullshit in "game" format...
>>46757928
I see this claim a lot, but never names
What other games do what Dungeon World does but better? I like the character sheets.
>>46758036
Could you please provide better examples?
>>46758129
Other anon here, what do you like about the character sheets?
>>46758159
The fact that everything is there and is simple enough for non-roleplayers. They check out want they want and let's play.
People expect something more of a statistical mechanization. If you fail at something, then you fail. People expect the adversaries to be statisical.
Dungeon World instead mechanizes narrative. IF you fail, you fail forward, things are always progressing. Even adversaries have a mechanized narrative. They have set moves that do set things, and certain things will happen if certain conditions are met. Adversaries and problems have sheets like characters have character sheets.
In games Powered by the Apocalypse, story is mechanized.
>>46758129
Fate, D&D 5E, Burnng Wheel. Just because yo come up with new names for "something doesn't go as planned" doesn't mean you've revolutionized game design. Good gms have been doing that shit for years without a book telling you "how." And poorly at that.
What was the point of keeping the stupid D&D stats and modifiers?
>>46758252
But D&D 5E is not really narrative is it?
>>46758243
Your point...?
>>46758129
http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=4996.0
a SIXTY page book trying to explain how the fucking thing works because the authors were being "clever" with their "moves, fiction, etc."
>>46758252
Fate CORE or Accelerated? Which is better?
>>46758304
No less than Dungeon Crapworld
>>46758337
Doesn't this happen with EVERY rpg? At least I see a D&D 5E rules explanation post every now and then
like this: http://tribality.com/2016/04/18/dd-5e-rules-answers-april/
>>46758346
Depends how simple you want. There's pages out there than can explain it in 20 seconds better than I can :) I like accelerated, but I like super simple games. The whole thing is like 50 pages. 10 pages less than the link above trying to explain DW.
>>46757964
I can think of several games with similar authors that don't get nearly as much hate.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending DW. I'm just saying you need to learn to separate the author from the system.
>>46757826
It takes the most diseased sacred cows of DnD and puts them on a poorly-built pedestal built of the shattered remains of PbtA. Most of the good ideas it has are also present in Apocalypse World, and are system agnostic. My suggestion is to read it for the GM advice, then move on to another system.
>>46758364
Oh, you are trolling.
>>46758319
People hate it for that reason. It's different, and people don't like different. It mechanizes a story, rather than a game.
Case in point, someone who thinks it's bad to attempt something different.
>>46758337
>>46758436
I see. You seem like one of the few that knows what he is talking about.
>>46758411
Can you please elaborate? As someone who is interested in DW I genuinely would like to know?
>>46758491
Most Powered by the Apocalypse games are like this, more of a mechanized story. Dungeon World tries to take D&D conceits and hack them into Dungeon World. I don't think it did it very well because the two kinds of games are nothing alike. D&D is about statistics and combat ultimately, story can come from that but it isn't necessary. PbtA games must have a narrative to function, and the mechanics directly change and influence that narrative. For D&D to fit, much had to be sacrificed.
>>46758252
>what does it better?
>names 3 garbage systems
Is this supposed to be clever or obnoxious?
>>46758512
Just off the top of my head
>split scores/modifiers for attributes
>combat that's roll to hit, oh hey you hit, roll damage ad nauseum
Yes, I'm aware that description interacts with this, but if you're playing an RPG and you're just having it be white room simulator, you might be in the wrong hobby
>alignments
and one from the old days:
>race/class limitations
>inb4 "just homebrew it out!"
>>46758383
Not EVERY RPG, just the poorly designed ones... Like d&d 5e and the 3 expensive-ass hardcover books you need just to play.
>>46757964
>avoid it because the author is an ass
I really don't give a fuck, I'm not playing with him.
>>46758614
What are other powered by the apocalypse games that actually work? I have been eying that Sprawl one.
Maybe it's the narrative based stuff? It makes things seem kind of loosy-goosy. "With my athletics skill, I know I can jump 10 meters with a running start if I need to" vs. "With my Defy Danger skill I know I can make 55 percent of all jumps the DM calls for when dramatically appropriate", except the sort of person who plays Dungeon World probably wouldn't think the latter at least not out loud.
I dunno, I'm kind of starting out in this hobby, and I would assume I'd want to try running something light like this for my friends, but it seems a little too weird. Some parts I like (no sudden shift between exploring and fighting, which means dungeons can flow better, kind of like a Zelda dungeon), but other parts seem like they're different for the sake of being different. Plus, everywhere I read about it everyone mentions how it takes a while for things to click, which is kind of weird for a rules light RPG that claims to be beyond that. Maybe it's because they're used to normal RPGs, so it's kind of like going from Java to C#, but whatever.
I have no idea about the community or creators, but since there's an SRD and preview versions of third party classes I don't think I would need to deal with them, at least at first. If the community has hyped this game up as the one true RPG or whatever, that seems like a fair reason to hate it.
Really, the two things I'm looking for in a rules light fantasy RPG are
-No shift between fighting and exploring, which mostly means no rolling for initiative and no counting rounds or minutes. At least not constantly.
-Sheets that have everything a player needs right there on it. No digging through books for spells or effects. At the same time, I want the stuff of the character sheets to be cool things, not just attack bonuses and skill lists.
I don't know if such a thing exists, but Dungeon World seems to be in the same wheelhouse. If not, I'm sure I can look at the other umpteen quadrillion Apocalypse World clones.
So let me get this straight, people go on and on criticizing Dungeon World and how there are other games that do what it does better but can name any actually good ones?
>>46758728
It's a Role Playing Game after all, I thought all the hate people gave to D&D4thed is that it was too much like a boardgame. WHERE'S THE RP they said. And they are hating this one because it's TOO MUCH RP? lol
>>46758621
>garbage systems
Fate's aspects are a cool mechanic that easily helps define characters and elements, that unfortunately sacrifices immersion for narrative control.
5e streamlines much with the addition of Advantage/Disadvantage, and removing subtraction from the mechanics, but this in turn sacrifices granularity and detail.
Burning Wheel's lifepaths and shades are an incredibly interesting and streamlined mechanic that easily evaluates how skills and talents of a character have developed, and the degree of that skill, without being bloated with math or massive dicepools. Unfortunately it's inundated with tables with ridiculous detail for things like an argument or ranged combat.
All three systems have good ideas attached to poor ones.
>>46758766
Did you really think those people were anything but shitposters?
Because Virtualoptim and a few other shitposters made it an autistic target shitposted it off the board. Also DW players pushed it hard.
>>46758728
Give it a try. You don't have to follow everything by the word. Fix what you don't like.
>>46758770
So is there any game with good ideas attached to good ideas?
>>46758621
Oh, you are trolling.
>>46758701
Well there's Apocalypse World, the original and arguably best. You explore a weird and harsh post-apocalyptic world, the circumstances of which you develop in game. Violence and sex are a thing, and there is a certain attitude to this game that many can find off=putting.
Monsterhearts which I consider teen supernatural horror done right. It explores identity, both in the sense of young adults exploring and finding themselves, and being a disturbing monster that preys upon others. This can get quite fucked up, so be prepared for this one.
Night Witches which is about playing the Night Witches a nickname for the real world all female Russian military aviator unit which works in two phases of being at base and being on a run, with mechanics to deal with each. It's a crazy interesting game dealing with the relationships and consequences of war, and the sexism against a all-female military unit in a generally male occupation.
Saga of the Icelanders which is set sometime after the year 874, when the first Norse settlers set foot on Iceland. They were escaping war, poverty and the dissolution of their political freedoms on the mainland. The game is actually quite sexist in the sense than males and females can only play certain roles, and each sex also has moves only they can do. Another interesting one.
>>46758999
Oh, Night Witches takes place in WW2, that context is important to the game I feel.
>>46758732
Without any of you worldfags trolling? Nope.
>>46758999
>Monsterhearts which I consider teen supernatural horror done right
Making people gay with your "magnetism" is now a teen thing? Wow.
>>46759233
>implying any teen is straight.
>>46759204
I'm not a "worldfag". I'm just someone who want's to play some rpg with his family members. Dungeon World seemed like a good idea, but if people like you say there are better options, please recommend away. And please say why, what does it do like DW, but "better".
>>46757826
It's not World Of Dungeons
Read Apocalypse World
>>46759253
This, everyone is bi at least in their teens
>>46759233
>Making people gay with your "magnetism" is now a teen thing? Wow.
No, having a fluid sexual identity while you're trying to discover who you are, is.
>>46759286
Explain?
>>46759311
I found the tumblerina.
>>46759311
>fluid sexual identity
Hahaha
>>46759341
>>46759458
>while you're trying to discover who you are
Missing the context.
>>46759483
>Hey, we know your character is a 17 old hispanica boy but this not!Count Dracula is showing you his dick.... And you rolled a 6 at the Find Sexuality check. You are now gay.
>>46759770
>You are now gay
Wrong. You're sexually attracted to a guy, but identity comes with self-actualization.
>>46759827
>self-actualization
That is the name of the not!Count Dracula's dick. And, remember, the game DEMANDS someone to turn gay, because that's the gimmick of PbtA.
>>46759827
>sexually attracted to a guy
That's gay though.
>>46759888
To be gay is to have both sexual and emotional attraction to only men. Being seduced by not!Count Dracula's dick doesn't mean you suddenly also despise pussy, or is there any emotional attraction in this scenario.
>>46759273
If you can't read and discover by yourself, then go play Skyrim or something other than a game that REQUIRES reading and reading compreheension. And to wear a shirt of the author.
>>46759286
>>46759286
please elaborate share?
>>46757826
>what /tg/ had lead me to believe:
Oldschool dungeon retro-style dungeon crawl with more modern sensibilities and streamlining.
>what it is:
Narrativist storygame faffery.
It's not Satan incarnate like the more hyperbolic people here would lead you to believe, but it's really nothing spectacular. If you REALLY need to play a game that mechanizes storytelling then use Torchbearer instead.
>>46760012
Google it.
>>46760013
>Torchbearer
First time hearing about it. You are not memeing me right? Don't want to waste money. Sell me on it.
>>46760085
>Heisei 28
>Spending money on rulebooks
>>46760175
Well. Please share a link.
>>46760085
Retro-flavoured game focused around old-school style dungeon crawling. heavy focus on inventory management and character status. I'll elaborate more in a minute.
Wow, I'm so glad I took the time to click on this thread and see all the wonderful productive discussion going on. It sure was a good way to spend my time that I don't regret now.
>>46759881
Except, as everyone who post this without knowing what they're talking about, you are completely wrong.
The ACTUAL result of the roll is "their attempt to turn you on generates an amount of emotional control for them", represented by a String.
This might be for any number of reasons NOT directly tied to arousal, or accidentally tied to arousal. For instance, if Not!Dracula pins your character to the wall and starts kissing him, maybe you get aroused at the forceful nature of it, but you're still not gay, you just happen to like being dominated. Or vice versa, maybe your character, pissed off at the faggy vampire, pins him to the wall, and a sudden quip from the vampire makes your character realize how much he's enjoying being the dominant force. The String could represent the idea of the vampire threatening to reveal that you "pinned him to the wall in the locker room", or some such.
Your character cannot be forced to be gay. He can be forced to have confused erotic encounters, because he's a stupid teenager with a shit ton of hormones, and some sort of supernatural bullshit going on. He's in a CW show.
>>46757826
We had this thread a while ago with a less inflammatory OP, and it boils down to this: there are three main camps of people who don't like Dungeon World.
1 People who dislike the Powered by The Apocalypse System. They prefer crunchier games, or different resolution mechanics, whatever. That's fine. Preferring different systems is a fine reason to not like a game.
2. They LIKE the Powered by the Apocalypse system, but dislike the attempts to make it fit a more OSR/D&D feel. Either they just don't like those kind of mechanics, or they don't like the way they're implemented. Again, a perfectly legitimate reason. An example is that all other PbtA games use just your modifiers as your "stats". You have +1 Hot, or +0 Smarts. Adding a base ability that then generates a modifier is an unnecessary step for a streamlined system.
(cont)
>>46760189
www.google.com
>>46760085
You know, for an anonymous stranger on an image board, you are awfully demanding.
Just Google for a review of Torchbearer, Dungeon World, or whatever else. There is no shortage of people happy to obsessively analyze every detail for you, but don't ask 4Chan for an objective option and expect more than greentext squabbling.
>>46760232
But if you hadn't, you wouldn't have gotten to smugly post about how much better you are then everyone.
Thanks for stopping by.
>>46760247
That's still gay, man. There's no way to deny it or say it is because of another reason.
José is gay.
>>46760287
I lol'd. Sorry I guess.
>>46757826
CLERICS CAN'T DUAL WIELD REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>46760196
Okay, so imho Torchbearer plays out much more like a hybrid between a Pen & Paper RPG, a board game, and a videogame like Darkest Dungeon. Thishttps://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/32ffrj/what_are_your_thoughts_on_torchbearer/
But really anon, if you're new to RPGs and want to go the fantasy route, try something like Basic Fantasy Roleplay or Castles and Crusaders to try and get your feet wet. They don't get bogged down in metagame weirdness that more esoteric narrativist games feature. Despite what people claim, DW isn't the best introduction to the hobby.
>>46760343
Technically he can swing both ways, so that guy has a point. I would still not consider a game about teen emotional development(With "Inspired by Twilight" slapped on the front cover) to be even slightly straight however.
>>46760247
3. I call this the "poisoned well" segment.
About a year after Monsterworld got published, it got big on /tg/, with a lot of threads praising it. This irritated members of camps 1 and 2, a few of which started aggressively shitposting in DW threads. The DW fanbase got in huge screaming arguments with them. For most of 2014, every DW thread was a goddamn shitshow.
This lead to a turn in public opinion. It didn't matter how many calm, rational refutations of the vitriolic claims people made, because four posts later, someone else was losing their shit. And the thread would happen again two days later. And this time, the calm heads were tired.
So DW became "that game everyone's losing their fucking shit over", with the fans not properly communicating over the shitposters, or really being willing to accept that there were people who just don't like the base conceits of the system.
So the whole thing kind of caught fire for a while.
As such, it's not really that much of /tg/ hates it, it's just that they have a mildly negative opinion, and no reason to change it.
>>46760343
Nigga, your shitty understanding of sexual classification ain't my problem.
When your classification of 'gay' is more stringent than the fucking 50's, you're the problem, not anyone else.
Next you'll fucking claim those 50's housewives were robosexual because they sat on washing machines to get stimulated.
>>46760377
I'm not really new, but at least 2 of my players will be. Touchbearer sounds good so far. Is it a good intro for new players?
>>46760423
I do want to clarify, because I think I was a little unclear: the DW fanbase were, in my opinion, almost as much to blame for what happened as the actual shitposters.
Sure, the shitposters were being dicks, but this is 4Chan, that's the level of discourse we have.
The DW guys too often just overreacted, or treated every post that didn't understand some of the design choices as a ruse to get them into an extended discussion where the person would 'accidentally' post a lot of the bullet points of the shitposters' agenda.
The shitposters pissed off the fans, who pissed off everyone else by not keeping their cool.
Dungeon World was the first game I GMed proper, and later played in.
From my point of view OP, its pros and cons can be summed up by it's lack of weighty mechanics.
On the one hand, you get a great deal if freedom with the game, as do the players. Drama flows from the dice, rather than math, and it's really easy to hack stuff out if you don't like it. For players, there's not much mechanically to deal with, and you can focus of the narrative as opposed to getting bogged down in lengthy combat. Balance isn't a thing you have to worry about, as the classes more or less guarantee a few roles everyone can fill. There's a bit of nomenklatura to learn, but no worse than learning what AC referes to.
On the other hand, if you like a lot of crunch and system, as a lot of the born and raised D&D purists do, then you won't like this game. There's not enough to fiddle around with and optimise.
I'd really suggest talking to your players about what they'd prefer, and then thinking about what your comfortable running. Should be standard anyway, but will help determine what works for your group.
>>46757826
Continuous shitposting against it, heralded by dedicated trolls and some namefag.
>>46760491
Frankly, no. At least not in my eyes. It's a really cool game, but if the players aren't familiar with RPG's, and if the GM is new o the system, things can get messy, fast. That's why I recommended Basic Fantasy Roleplay or Castles and Crusaders which you can find in the OSR thread Trove:
https://mega.nz/#F!3FcAQaTZ!BkCA0bzsQGmA2GNRUZlxzg!jJtCmTLA
They're much more friendly to new players. I wish I had cut my teeth on them instead of fucking D&D 3.5.
>>46760609
In the vein of games with alliteration meant to evoke the same feeling as The World's Most Popular RPG, how does Tunnels and Trolls fit into this? All I really know is the guy who created it looked at the original D&D game, said 'wtf m7', and then made his own lighter game. Lighter in tone as well as rules.
I know it has solitaire rules, so maybe I'd be better off checking that out instead of asking here.
>>46760609
Oh and here's a link for BFRPG:
http://basicfantasy.org/download.cgi/Basic-Fantasy-RPG-Rules-r105.pdf
>>46760714
I'd love to tell you, but I've literally never even done so much as read the first page. Sorry, pal.
>>46760777
Thank you for posting and thank you for all the images, you are welcomed to keep posting images.
>>46760866
You're very welcome.
>>46760777
Eh, I'm in the same boat. I just know it exists and the basic notes of it.
I also know the guys behind it are the guys who made a book full of stuff like this.
>>46760777
Dark souls fan boy is coming out seeing that.
>>46760609
>>46760777
Something very good came of this thread.
Thank you.
>>46761024
>Something very good came
Wipe your hands clean.
>>46760953
How many Grimtooth books are there anyways? I've been meaning to give them a read.
>>46761067
>>46761120
>>46757826
>Why do people here hate Dungeon World so much?
I think that's mostly the turbonerds. It's a fun game, I ran a dwarf-fortress inspired game with friends, and the newbies took to it.
>>46761212
>dwarf-fortress inspired game
Tell me stories, please.
Sure are a lot of sea lions in this thread.
>>46761067
There's gotta be around ten of them.
Honestly, rules light or not I'd love to run something that actually uses this stuff. I don't know if it'd be the 'character funnel' or whatever it is OSR games use. Maybe it'd have something like Disgaea's Netherworld Hospital as a regular fixture of the world; very cheap, very effective, and very painful.
Shit "game".
>>46757826
It was mostly just virt spewing his aspergian gaming elitism.
>>46761564
Okay, I'm curious.
Why sea lions?
>>46758947GURPS
>>46758683
>Like d&d 5e and the 3 expensive-ass hardcover books you need just to play
You mean the entirely free website that has all the information you need to play the game, including PDF's?
>>46758728
i mean, you can just play house ruled/gm fiat 2e and focus on the narrative if you want. you don't have to use the initiative system or break out a combat grid. it's modular, just hack out whatever you don't like. shit, you don't even need to roll dice if you don't want.
as long as the people you play with are into what you want to do, go for it.
>>46758701
I think it fits really really well with the comic book milieu of Worlds in Peril.
>>46758732
Tavern Tales
Fate/FUDGE
Retroclones: Grey Six, Barbarians of Lemuria, Labyrinth Lord, and Lamentations of The Flame Princess
Strike
Torchbearer
>>46768426
what the fuck do Strike! and retroshit have in common with Dungeon World?
like, fucking Strike!, the game all about combat mechanics?
>>46768426
>Strike!
I actually like to recommend Strike! for most things, but I would hardly call the base skill system better than DW. The meat is more in the tactical combat and group conflict stuff I think.
>Fate/FUDGE
As long as under "FATE" you mean Accelerated, sure, I can see that.
>>46768470
>like, fucking Strike!, the game all about combat mechanics?
The base system is actually similar to a really stripped down *World game.
But yeah, I also don't see how those are actually "better" instead of just different.
Tavern Tales could be a good contender for "DW but better", but I need to see it in play to decide.
