Friendly reminder that this man, who is internationally considered a hero, is singlehandedly responsible for the Galipoli disaster that killed over 200,000 men despite knowing fully well that it could never turn out succesful due to there being less men available than was initially projected for a succesful operation because he didn't like the BEF getting all the glory while the navy was left behind, and all he got for it was a demotion that did not matter in the grand scheme of things.
Friendly reminder that this same man promoted total war against the Soviet Union before WW2 had even fully ended.
Friendly reminder that there are streets and squares dedicated to this man all over Europe. He truly was correct: he is remembered a hero by history because he wrote it, nothing more.
>>46695453
But anon, total war against the soviets would have been a good idea.
>>46695453
>Friendly reminder that this same man promoted total war against the Soviet Union before WW2 had even fully ended.
And thank god he didn't or Eastern Europe would have become a socialist hellhole post war. I'm glad we avoided that
>>46695453
> he is remembered a hero by history because he wrote it, nothing more.
Every hero in the history is remembered because somebody wrote about them. He just cut the middle man.
>>46695453
>promoted total war against the Soviet Union before WW2 had even fully ended.
America's biggest crime was not turning around for a minute so Patton could start a war with the Soviets.
We dropped the ball on that one. Should have steamrolled Berlin and kept going until we had an American flag flying over the Kremlin.
>>46695453
>Friendly reminder that this man, who is internationally considered a hero, is singlehandedly responsible for the Galipoli disaster that killed over 200,000 men despite knowing fully well that it could never turn out succesful due to there being less men available than was initially projected for a succesful operation because he didn't like the BEF getting all the glory while the navy was left behind, and all he got for it was a demotion that did not matter in the grand scheme of things.
He never intended Galipoli to have any amphibious component. It was supposed to be a use of a bunch of outdated, second-string ships to try and force the straight. Lightning attack, etc etc, and the ones who got a hold of executing the operation fucked it up out of his control.
At least, that's his story. I assume it's somewhere between the two.
>Friendly reminder that this same man promoted total war against the Soviet Union before WW2 had even fully ended.
Yeah, but he didn't threaten to nuke them like Truman. What a pussy.
>>46695252
-10 hp
>>46695453
Still held a nation together as it fought alone for a year against the axis, an amazing and unprecedented feat. Nothing you've said refutes that. So he wasn't perfect and recognized the murderous evil of U.S.S.R. before the rest of world did. Go bitch about to someone who cares
>>46695498
it did become actually. Learn history, kid.
>>46695638
>Still held a nation together as it fought alone for a year against the axis, an amazing and unprecedented feat.
Yeah, alone, except for Canada, and New Zealand, and Australia, and India, and all those allied colonies they took over to carry on the war effort.
But really, by themselves, honestly. Only them and half the world.
>>46695453
>Friendly reminder that this same man promoted total war against the Soviet Union before WW2 had even fully ended.
We should have kicked the fucking commies while they were down. It was the free world's best chance, and it got squandered.
>>46695453
>he is remembered a hero by history because he wrote it
And won a nobel prize for said writing.
He also fought on the western front, and was a war reporter in the boer war.
He was definitely a dick, on many occasions, ignored social mores when it suited him, and was completely out of touch with the general populace, on many levels, but his charisma was off the charts and he was certainly brave, if nothing else.
For all his flaws I'd still consider him a hero, and one can't but wonder what would happen if he'd been allowed to set the precedent in Afghanistan
>>46695453
All generals take losses, you ignorant fuck. Sometimes a gamble is made and someone loses, that's war.
>>46695654
>>46695498 is sarcasm
>>46695656
Still counts as "the nation"
Because, you know, The Empire
>>46695665
Yes, we should have waged war against the war machine that was recently armed by America and did most of the heavy lifting against America when they were perfectly willing to draw a line and leave everyone on the other side of it alone. What could possibly go wrong?
It's an all or nothing gambit, with "nothing" meaning "literally all of Europe under Communist rule".
>>46695619
>half of this thread
Americans make me sick.
t. Russian.
>>46695707
1946 January. Moscow is in nuclear cinders. That was easy
>>46695453
>Friendly reminder that this same man promoted total war against the Soviet Union before WW2 had even fully ended.
It is a fucking disgrace that we allowed the Soviets to annex Eastern Europe and oppress them for 50 years. Anybody who disagrees is a coward and morally bankrupt.
Everything that was used to justify fighting the Nazis applied just as much to the USSR.
>>46695728
well all the smart Russians got purged so I can see how this would go over your head Komrade
>>46695741
I'm sorry you disagree with people that strongly.
Sadly, much of what you said was factually incorrect, and the rest was seriously unfeasible.
>>46695741
>Everything that was used to justify fighting the Nazis applied just as much to the USSR.
They... waged wars of aggression multiple times? I'm no fan of the Soviets but u fookin' wot m8? Half of the red scare wasn't so much about what the Russians actually did as much as what they could do.
>>46695707
It's easy.
We drop the atomic bomb intended for Tokyo on Moscow.
>>46695707
>perfectly willing to draw a line and leave everyone on the other side of it alone
You almost make them sound like decent people instead of an expansionist empire run by a genocidal lunatic.
>>46695763
What was incorrect about that? Did we overlook all those elections in Eastern Europe post war.
>>46695733
On its own nuking Moscow, even repeatedly, is not what it would have taken to make The Union surrender.
Catching Stalin in the blast would.
>>46695776
To be fair, the initial arguments (as in, not the camps found during the war) against the Nazis can also be levied against the Soviets - Poland did kind of get split between them, for just one example
>>46695836
They weren't violating WWI treaties. That's about the most initial argument there is.
>>46695763
>>46695776
Are you people deliberately ignoring the fact the Soviet regime killed more innocent people than the Nazis did?
The millions of people forced out of their homes or exiled without justification? Entire ethnic groups arbitrarily relocated? Thousands of people executed because of paranoia?
The whole of Eastern Europe suffered for decades because they were allowed to occupy all that territory. And the countries they took over are still recovering.
>>46695619
We should have just annexed everything. USA! USA! USA!
>>46695853
Anon.
It's OUR people.
It's for us to decide what to do with them and how to treat them. Not for you or your country.
>>46695853
>Are you people deliberately ignoring the fact the Soviet regime killed more innocent people than the Nazis did?
Are you ignoring the fact that the holocaust started years before WWII started and nobody cared about it? Are you forgetting that the British invented concentration camps to deal with the Boers? Nobody complained about the Holocaust until after the war.
Genocide was a daily affair back then, but violating external sovereignity was a ig deal.
>>46695892
This was pretty much the attitude: they're not OUR people so it's not our problem. A lot different than today, where "humanitarian interventions" are used to justify just about everything.
>>46695850
They must have violated some, surely? - simply because they weren't around to make them
Even ignoring that, yes, there are possible reasons that could have been seized upon to make war against the Russians.
And in 1945 that would have been a disaster, undoubtedly
>>46695892
I hope for the love of God you are trolling.
Genocide is never okay, neither is murdering people for having more sheep than their neighbours or disagreeing with the government. Never mind they had no choice in being absorbed by the USSR.
>>46695892
I think those people killed would disagree with that. Are you saying German Jews could be killed at will? Do governments have the power of death over all their citizens? Is this the status of morality in Russia? Is this bait?
>>46695853
The holodomor killed millions. Stalin was as much a monster as Hitler, he was just the Allies monster so it goes under the rug.
>>46695965
>British invented concentration camps
Spanish, akshually (or possibly Russian empire), though yes, the Boer War was the most notable pre-WWII instance
>>46695965
Are you an idiot? Concentration camps to keep Boer civilians away from their fighting men is not even slightly comparable to deliberate genocide.
And no, the holocaust was not even implemented until at least a year after WW2 started.
Its still fucking sickening that anybody would defend what Russia did or defend Eastern Europe being abandoned.
>>46695984
I am not.
>>46696009
They were given a carte blanche to do so by hteir people, so yes. If their people don't mind, then yes. Don't know, but this is the status of my morality. No.
>>46696078
Could 51% of a country demand the death of the 49% on a whim?
>>46696078
>They were given a carte blanche to do so by their people, so yes. If their people don't mind, then yes
But that is not even slightly what happened.
'The people' are the ones who suffered you psychopath. And most of the people in the USSR never had any choice in joining it or any control over the actions of the government.
>>46696049
I'm never surprised what people will defend anymore. Being a historian will cause you to see a lot of grim shit, and deal with people who will justify and white wash it no matter what you show them.
>>46695619
>Thinks that they could win a land war in Russia.
>Literally wanting to pull a Barbarossa
Those who fail to learn from history...
-5 HP
I can't help but notice no-one has actually statted him yet, not even owlbear
![1446476248449[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/f6nno5O.jpg "1446476248449[1].jpg")
>>46696049
>Its still fucking sickening that anybody would defend what Russia did or defend Eastern Europe being abandoned.
But I don't, I'm just saying that operation Unthinkable was too risky to the point of being pretty damned stupid. The ideal scenario would be removing Germany from the map in 1914, ensuring that Poland, the last bastion against Communism, would not fall. It had already resisted the Soviet Union in 1920 and could probably do so again if not for the Nazis ruining fucking everything.
I'm not defending everything, I'm just saying that it would've been a bad thing to gamble an entire continent (or half of it rather) that has just been liberated from totalitarianism.
>>46696116
give Germany few more years and we will find out
>>46696116
Do they have enough power to back this demand?
>>46696078
You're right. Countries like Poland, that where forcibly invaded and then given up by their allies after the war really did ask for it.
Fucking vatnik, go kill yourself and do the world a favor. Russia deserves nothing but a nuclear cleansing.
>>46695654
Look at this guy.
>>46696144
Its pretty god damn sad, just look at Russians today.
Not even all ethnic Russians were originally in Russia, Muscovy conquered them. Yet I constantly see ones who think the Russian government has a holy right to the entire former USSR/Russian Empire.
>>46696233
>Not even all ethnic Russians were originally in Russia, Muscovy conquered them.
Go back far enough and this applies to all countries. America was a bunch of Europeans who felt themselves entitled to Indian lands, England's Normans felt themselves entitled to the entire British Isles, France is just some Franks who believed they were somehow entitled to all of Gaul which the Romans believed they were entitled to themselves despite the Gauls actually living there.
Welcome to planet earth: either you conquer or you're conquered.
>>46696145
I would say we had around a decent chance of success if we attacked immediately. 100% if we did the decent thing and dropped a big one right on the Kremlin.
>>46695705
When did the UK war with Australia?
Is this about Australian aborigines? Or the Japanese?
>>46695892
Jesus, are you a retard?
>>46695705
Not really. Canada Australia and NZ determined their own legislation at that point and could have chosen not to go to war. The big deal was that they CHOSE to support Britain and declare war on Germany, they weren't obliged to like in WW1
>>46695638
Canadafag friendly reminder you owe the RAF to the CWATP in Canada. Friendly reminder that during the war up to 1/3 of RAF personnel were not British.
Churchill is still one of my idols, don't get me wrong, but you know, us filthy colonials kept you guys floating until the US stopped being moronic and got off their asses
>>46696336
That chart is pretty weird. For example, I'm pretty sure they never invaded Uruguay. I guess they had some ships in the region during some war with Spain when it still had colonies there so it counts as invading Uruguay somehow.
>>46696445
Unsuccessful, but brits did invade the region
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_invasions_of_the_River_Plate
STR 8
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 18
CHA 20
>>46696551
LE diplomancer bard. His "performance" is either a speech or a 2-3 line insulting quip. His bardic insturment is a cigar that amplifies his voice
>>46696428
>until the US stopped being moronic and got off their asses
We were in no way obligated to help those idiots unfuck their continent. Frankly, the Soviets were worse than the Nazis. We should've let the Germans torch the entire steppe. We should've HELPED the Germans torch the entire steppe. A 20th century with no Bolshevik albatross hanging from the global neck would've been a paradise.
>>46696666
Whatever you say Satan
>>46696666
>Satan trips
Appropriate
>>46696600
i think He's Lawful good or lawful neutral, He's not simply 'My country right or wrong"
(LE) he does acknowledge a greater mortality than nationalism
>>46696145
>occupying
You don't occupy Ivan. You copy the Mongols and kill as many tenths as you need till they stop resisting.
>>46695853
>Are you people deliberately ignoring the fact the Soviet regime killed more innocent people than the Nazis did?
People always ignore this, anon. No one has ever held the Soviets to account. Ever.
And they will keep doing it because. and I quote: "Oh well, at least they weren't Nazis."
>>46696336
The Emus
>>46695776
Poland, 1920 (Miracle on the Vistula, anyone?), the various Soviet satellites, and not to mention the Winter War. Just because the Soviets lost two out those three does not make them any less aggressive.
>>46696078
Fucking Russkies.
I thought cognitive dissonance was a Western trait.
>>46700870
Pretty sure cognitive dissonance is a universally human trait. People well believe whatever they want to or whatever validates them.
>>46695656
There was a period before any of those allies were ready or able to come to their aid.
>>46700747
>No one has ever held the Soviets to account.
I'll take "what was a good part of the cold war?" for 500, Alex
Also, that's not unique to the Soviets - all non-nazi war crimes get a pass (thread related, seeing as Winston over here had a couple to his name (Bengal, Dresden), though they were more relevant to the war and necessary than most nazi ones)
>>46695707
>when they were perfectly willing to draw a line and leave everyone on the other side of it alone.
When they were at the limit of their resources and at their most vulnerable to counterattack, you mean. It's like von Clausewitz says: The enemy is at their weakest in their moment of victory, but pursuit is the most difficult part of battle.
>>46695871
>We should have just annexed everything. USA! USA! USA!
That worked out pretty well for Germany, Japan, and South Korea. I have to think Western Russia would be a lot less shitty today if it had spent a decade or two under American martial law.
>>46695853
The Soviets had a hell of a lot more time to fuck around than the Nazis did. Turtle beats the hare, bruv.
If the West had had our hindsight, the best thing to do would have been to limit American assistance to the soviets, let the Nazis actually Knock out the Kremlin, then step in to crush the Nazis while they struggle to pacify the countryside. Install a semi-competent Russian government and maybe Europe won't have to deal with totalitarian forces for decades.
>>46695619
No one wanted war, they had been fighting for six years. 60 million dead, Europe in shambles, the sane man wouldn't think "lets give it another go"
>>46695252
-10 HP
>>46695252
Size/Type: Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d10 (27 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/–1
Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d4–2 plus petrification)
Full Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d4–2 plus petrification)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Petrification
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Weapon FinesseB
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, flight (3–5), or flock (6–13)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6–8 HD (Small); 9–15 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —
>>46695631
He also fucked up singapore, various failed attempts to land in france prior to D-day, and ran concentration camps for civilians during the boer war.
>>46696551
Str 12
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 20
>>46695483
>>>46695453
>But anon, total war against the soviets would have been a good idea.
SUCH a good idea. If only we'd listened to Patton. Maybe we could have avoided the Cold War.
>>46696145
>>>46695619
>>Thinks that they could win a land war in Russia.
>>Literally wanting to pull a Barbarossa
>Those who fail to learn from history...
I will counter this idiocy with two words:
Manhattan Project
We would have smashed Russia quickly and cleanly, driven by an invincible weapon, and the world would be a better place for it.
>>46702185
It took a lot of propaganda to get us just to support Britain with supplies. A lot more to get involved. And more to keep us fighting when our boys were dying.
Nobody would have accepted a post victory back stab against an ally we'd spent so much helping. Morale would be in shambles. We didn't want to do anything to prolong the war.
Why do you think Korea went shittily? We never went into it with the same determination as the war that claimed so many lives five years prior.
Just as we didn't want to get involved in the second version of a war that killed so many twenty years prior.
>>46696287
kek, good luck getting your aircraft into russian airspace. just not going to happen sonny. Even nuking moscow, you can't win against Russia's land and winter. They'll withdraw, stretch your supply lines to their limits, and wait for winter then counter attack, just like they do every time, usually against superior forces, and win.
>>46702659
>We would have smashed Russia quickly and cleanly, driven by an invincible weapon, and the world would be a better place for it.
Pretty much what every country who ever invaded Russia said. There's always an uber weapon, be it le grande armee, or blitzkgreig, or nukes, but you just can't "smash" Russia. and who would want to? who would seriously want to have to look after so much endless wasteland? so much space and so little sustenance, it doesn't really even warrant invasion.
Also lets not forget the only reason US developed nukes was due to captured German scientists. Without the eastern front, allies would have had a hell of time getting into mainland Europe, let alone germany, and the US nuclear program would have never existed. Thankfully (if you can call it that) the Russians kept half the german forces (and arguably all the best commanders and units) busy for most of the war
>>46696145
>thinks russia could have done jack shit after murrica stopped pumping commie ass full of murrican spooge in the form of trucks, radios, ammo, food, socks, blankets, guns ect ect ect
We would have cut the red army off from sucking american dick to get what it needed to bitch slap the nazis.
We knew fighting the nazis was going to be tough. so we gave the commies the shit they needed to do it and let them do a lot of the heavy lifting for us. we would have easily been able to steam roll them back.
>>46702786
There is a large difference between having a massive army, good plans and being able to pick a city and wipe it off the map with a single plane.
If murrica ever got bogged down like stalingrad they would just pull back and fucking nuke it (at the time. not now)
>>46695619
I would argue that america's biggest crime was dropping 2 nukes when soviet forces in manchuria had almost forced a japanese surrender. If they had waited a couple of weeks, there would have been no need to vaporize 200,000 people and poison 2 civilian cities for generations.
The propaganda that "the nukes ended the war" seems so deep seated in most people that no one even questions if it was necessary. Really it was just Truman showing off to the russians. They were in a race to see who could get Japan to surrender first. The Soviets were the bigger threat (its not like some islands in the pacific had any impact on japans production), due to cutting out china from Japans empire and closing on the mainland.
If Truman hadn't ordered the atomic bombs to be dropped ASAP, and instead buried the project, we probably wouldn't have had a cold war.
>>46702837
I mean.
Sure, they'd been busy fighting their all.
But they HAD enough trucks, trains, and whatnot to actually win the war. It's not like we could show up and go, "Oh, do you think you could give those back to us so we could attack you?"
>>46702883
>(its not like some islands in the pacific had any impact on japans production)
...but, they did.
Japan had almost no indigenous oil. Losing the Phillipines and the Dutch East Indies gutted them. Their navy was pretty much irrelevant thereafter simply due to lack of oil.
And I don't know whether you happen to consider this 'propaganda', but IIRC, the majority of Japan was pretty dead-set on fighting to the last. Women were being handed knives and swearing to take at least one GI with them. When it looked like the Emperor might surrender, there was a coup by military officers to try and stop him.
Toasting two hundred thousand people really seems like it was the fastest, most efficient, and least bloody option afaict.
>>46702909
We gave them the crap we dident want.
For fucks sake T-34 tank crews were using SIGNAL FLAGS until we gave them a bunch of radios.
>>46702872
Moscow was completely destroyed when napoleon captured it. Didn't seem to help.
Destroying cities doesn't really win wars
Also I think you underestimate the poor quality roads in Russia during WW2. There's only so much you can airdrop, and eventually your forces get cut off, without supplies, and encircled by soviets. Look at the 6th army.
If the US attempted barbarossa at the same stage in the war, they wouldn't have done anywhere near as well as the germans did. They were green as hell at that point.
>>46702967
I don't see how that's remotely relevant.
>>46702883
The Jap mindset at the time was fight to the death.
They would not have surrendered untill there was a very heavy push into its mainland. where ever single person able to shoot a gun, stab someone with a sword or throw a rock would have fought. and holy shit the traps set up would have been hell.
No we droped the nukes because we had seen what they did and we just dident give a flying fuck about them anymore. if nuking 200,000 of them saved 1 soldiers life then fuck those slanty eyed bastards.
>>46702883
> Just let them get conquered by Russia
Yeah that worked out great for Germany/Eastern Europe. I'd rather be nuked.
Besides America built Japan into one of the top nations before the Nips fucked it up again.
>>46695705
When did we (Chileans) fight against you?
>>46702954
>the majority of Japan was pretty dead-set on fighting to the last
The Japanese high command was 50/50 on surrender. The Japanese people would essentially do whatever the emperor/government told them to. They were not animals (although some were worked into a fervor later in the war)
The Emperor who had just visited firebombed tokyo was the one who broke the tie in the high command, voting for surrender. Nothing to do with nukes. saying they "ended the war" is pure propaganda designed so US dont look like war criminals.
many many cities were destroyed, and many many people killed. The speed didn't really matter. 100,000 in 1 second, or 100,000 over a period of weeks. Once again, destroying cities doesn't win wars, or end wars, as we've seen time and time again in history.
>>46702967
Eh Soviets came into contact with german radios early on, they learned pretty much everything they knew from the germans.
Did the US even have throat mics for their tank radios?
>>46702981
>hear have this shitty stuff so you can send wave after wave of your own men at the russians
>suddenly murrica stops letting you guzzle its cum
>suddenly murrica wages war on your exausted army that was relying on suplies that are not comming
Cut the army off from its supply line and you win.
>>46703052
>Once again, destroying cities doesn't win wars, or end wars, as we've seen time and time again in history.
Tell Carthage.
I also generally disagree with you. Destroying cities inhibits the ability to field an army. If your opponent can't field an army, you're halfway to victory. As long as they realize it.
>>46703017
>The Jap mindset at the time was fight to the death.
That was ordered from above and could easily be changed. Any human can be whipped up into a frenzy. Once the emperor told them to surrender, they did (at least those that weren't crazy)
The Soviets were very close to the Japanese mainland, hence why they surrendered.
Your racist, ignorant post kind of showcases US propaganda at work: turns you into mindless killing machines who hate the enemy, whoever the enemy might be. No better than the Japanese in the end of WW2.
Dont forget it was US sanctions that brought the Japanese into the war to start with. There trade was heavily impeded, so they decided to wipe the US fleet in one swift stroke, and they nearly succeeded.
Unfortunately for Japan, you just can't outproduce a much larger country, and eventually they will wear you down.
You certainly can't outproduce both Russian and the US, so Japan had no chance at the end there. Dropping the nukes just seemed superficial, and inflammatory, essentially starting the cold war and threatening the entire world for the next 50 years.
>>46703128
>Destroying cities inhibits the ability to field an army
not really. Stalingrad was destroyed. didn't stop Russia from fielding a massive army.
If you can destroy ALL cities in an enemy country, you might be able to hamper their military production, but we've also seen that strategic bombing just doesn't work that well, and if you do destroy every city, what's left to conquer? is this just an exercise in killing everything because they're the "enemy"?
The US are kind of like a kid who likes to kill things, but doesn't really have a use for all the dead animals, and in the end just has a massive temper tantrum because no one wants to play with them due to the fact they smell like death.
Further to the 'land war in Asia' argument, as much as Trump would have you believe it, you simply can't bomb an idea out of existence. People tend to forget that socialism was seen as a good thing by a significant number of people in both Eastern and Western Europe who had spent the previous 3 centuries toiling to make the 1% exorbitantly wealthy.
Dropping the bomb on the Commies who were (rightly) perceived to have won the war against fascism in order to 'liberate' Eastern Europe would have been as likely to see Communism defeated as it would cause the collapse of democracy in the West.
>>46695252
"Good evening, Mr. President, you seem to have me at a disadvantage."
>>46702980
>Destroying cities doesn't really win wars
Destroying your enemies production centers does. And there's a difference between "lot of damage from fighting" and "fucking nuked lol"
>>46703022
>before the Nips fucked it up agai
"Hey sliteyes! Rejoice! We, your American Overlords give you this nice and shiny nuclear reator! What do you mean 'frequent powerful earthquakes'? We ain't got none of that in America and neither could you. You'll be fine!"
>>46703285
Is it wrong that I wished this was a real show?
>>46703130
>>46703052
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident
Japan was eager to fight to the death right up to the very end.
>>46703059
They still had the infrastructure though. They had everything they had needed to fight the Whermacht every inch of the way from Poland to Berlin. Were they exhausted and running out of manpower? Sure. But they certainly could fight, and cutting off a supply of trucks and whatnot would not have magically gutted them. And no, we weren't shipping them shells or bullets in anything approaching significant amounts. We couldn't, anymore than the Luftwaffe could supply the 6th Army by air.
'murrica could probably have done so. It wouldn't have been remotely easy or painless.
>>46703128
>Carthage
A city-state, not a modern state
>>46703372
A mercantile empire with colonies throughout the Mediterranean.
>>46702554
Actually yeah, this.
>>46703200
Stalingrad's destruction didn't affect Russia's overall industrial capacity at the time because Stalin ordered Russia's factories taken apart and rebuilt in Siberia. The only reason both Hitler and Stalin cared about that particular city enough to turn into a charnel house of slaughter was because it was named after him. It was primarily a vanity prize for both leaders.
>>46704139
>The only reason both Hitler and Stalin cared about that particular city enough to turn into a charnel house of slaughter was because it was named after him.
It also secured passage into the south east oil fields, which Russia desperately needed and Germany could have made great use of. The whole southern salient was after them, and the British forcibly requisitioned a corridor around the south end of the Caspian sea from their puppet Iran,Or was it Persia at the time? I can't remember at this hour.specifically to facilitate Russian access to it despite any war-time obstruction.
>>46703052
>Nothing to do with nukes.
It is beyond implausible that the fact that America has just deployed two nuclear bombs didn't influence Hirohito's decision to surrender, particularly since Hirohito cited the bomb as one of the reasons for Japan's surrender in the Jewel Voice Broadcast (alongside general war weariness).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_Voice_Broadcast
>Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.
More to the point Hirohito does not mention the Soviet invasion of Manchuria as a reason for surrender. The only time he mentions the Soviets at all, in fact, it is alongside China, Britain, and the US, stating that Japan has decided to surrender to all four.
The fact of the matter is that by the time the Soviets invaded Manchuria, the elements of the IJA still on the Asian mainland were already considered to be dead men walking. All that mattered was the defense of the Home Islands from invasion, but America's conventional bombing, fire bombing, and finally nuclear bombing demonstrated that such a defense was impossible.
This is leaving aside the fact that the Soviets simply did not have the logistical capability to launch an invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, even in Japan's crippled state. They just lack the ships and supply lines in the region necessary to sustain an invasion. This is a matter of historical fact.
>>46704184
It was Persia at the time. Technically it's always been Iran - that being the native name for the place - but for the longest time it was called Perisa by the West because of Greece.
Istanbul/Constantinope kinda' thing. Or Bangkok verses Krung Thep.
>>46703130
>Dont forget it was US sanctions that brought the Japanese into the war to start with.
Those sanctions were made in direct response to Japanese atrocities in China, including the Rape of Nanjing, so I'm not sure what, if any, moral high ground you're trying to give Japan here.
>>46703372
A mercantile empire with contracted army and near complete trade dominance through much of the civilized West.
>>46695638
>Still held a nation together as it fought alone for a year against the allies, an amazing and unprecedented feat. Nothing you've said refutes that. So he wasn't perfect and recognized the murderous evil of U.S.S.R. before the rest of world did. Go bitch about to someone who cares
I'm glad people understand my pain today
>>46702786
GrrrraaaaaAAAAHHHHHH
NO, we did not only get nukes because of captured German scientists. You remember the Manhatten Project? Where we designed the world's first nukes before the war was over? Then we used them for the first and so far last two nuke attacks on populated targerlts, all BEFORE we got those German scientists?
Yes, Von Braun and all his colleagues were of immense help for all of our rocket research, both nuclear and spacecraft, but please don't forget that we had had people working on the nuke project and solved it without needing any captured German brains. Actually, none of the several German nuke programs were anywhere near where we were when they ended.
Though anybody who thinks we could have rolled over the Soviets is wrong, wrong, wrong. Frankly, even setting aside the MASSIVE logistical problems and the fact that we wouldn't have any more nukes for quite some time- we only had the two ready to go- the raw truth is that the people wouldn't have stood for it.
Morale was not great even in the heartland US, physically untouched by the war, and you can bet your ass that Joe Schmuckatelli in the Army wasn't keen on another two to five years of brutal war.
It would be suicidally stupid.
>>46703252
>as much as Trump would have you believe it, you simply can't bomb an idea out of existence.
what the albigensian heresy? exactly
>>46706933
We live in a different age. You can't kill ideas with bombs anymore, you have to use information to kill it.
>>46702386
>A Flock of Churchills
"Eat hot lead Fritz!"
>>46696161
I think you've seen the casualty reports for the USSR for WWII, they had practically bleed themselves dry, you could add all the eastern front ally death-counts together and you wouldn't even have half of Russia's casualties.
>>46702837
>gave
The correct verb is "sold" anon.
>>46709069
thank you general hindsight. we would been able to beat them we shoulda wasted our two nukes on russia even though we had japan to fight and it wasn't threat of being nuked but invasion from combined russian and american forces that made them surrender.
how dare our war weary ancestors glutted on horror and destruction turn away from war and leave eastern europe to the eastern europeans.
>>46695252
>BAC: 0.9
>>46696049
Uh anon, the total death estimate for the USSR work/death/prisoner/etc. camps is estimated to be around 5 mil, as in during the whole time they existed. As for the Holodomor, there is literally zero evidence of it being intentional, and not just occurring during the mechanization of agriculture and thus hitting harder, also worsened by general incompetence and really fucking shitty infrastructure (which can't exactly be blamed on the Soviets, who were hard at work trying to improve things). After the Holodomor not a single famine occurred in Soviet either, and they were regular before that. There is absolutely no comparison to be made in death toll between Nazi Germany and the USSR.
>>46714000
no, Estimates for Stalin's camps range for 8-61 million. That's just Stalin's reign
>>46714000
I was pretty sure there was evidence uncle joe deliberately exacerbated it.
Besides, it's retarded to compare fascist and communist death tolls since communism had several more (larger) countries, and existed for sixty more years than fascism did.
>>46714000
It was called a terror famine for a reason. Also why did the soviets deny it was happening if it was unintentional?
>>46695453
I'm surprised you didn't mention the time he let a building that was on fire burn down because there was a criminal gang inside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sidney_Street
>>46695619
If you /really/ wanted to go that route, you should have not given the Soviets the technology required to build their weapons: Americans were the ones that handed them their factories, their vehicles, and hell, even the design of the T-34 is derived from an American one.
Rolled 11, 6, 4, 1, 6, 11 = 39 (6d20)
