Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion
Lady Vashj edition
Discuss the viability of the Warcraft universe as a tabletop RPG setting, laugh at the finer points of lore and discuss why Illidan never tapped dat ass. Have fun, don't go full autist, and keep your cool.
Previous thread >>46622936
Fuck Darkshire.
>>46651305
It's not Darkshire's fault it turned into an infamously bad neighborhood.
>>46651484
With a name like Darkshire, how could it not.
>>46651484
Seriously. Should have named it Pleasant Hill.Incidentally, a real city in California.
>>46651684
Maybe they hesitated with Deathshire (it's a quiet neighbourhood!)?
>>46651684
Wasn't it called Brightwood before everything turned to shit?
What do lady night elf farts smell like?
>>46651809
Pine sol
>>46651808
>>46651808
Correct. The town was originally named Brightwood. Then the forest turned dark and cursed, and the name was changed to Darkshire to reflect it.
>>46651947
Duskwood was called Brightwood.
>>46651788
>all those skulls and spiky bits
as much as i hate warhammer orks, if green nigger orcs in warcraft went the 40k ork route i think they would be more likable and fit more with the story that keeps getting pushed of "these guys rape, murder, and kill every single chance they get but if you call them evil youre racist!"
>>46652120
Why do people insist on bringing 40k into everything, and if they're determined to take warhammer, why not use the more appropriate fantasy one?
>>46652476
>the original Warcraft was heavily inspired by WHFB so that means they're the exact same thing even after Warcraft became an extremely different and much more popular setting
>>46652562
>not knowing how to use greentext
Welcome to 4chan, friend.
>>46651947
The town was called Summershire or something. It's on the old Warcraft 1 map.
To the posters of (things like)
>I hate WHFB/40k
Seriously, are you guys baiting?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X804ZYbeQEI
Your daily dose of nostalgia
On topic:
How would you design a campaign about members of the troll tribes who collect ancient artifacts and try to reunite the troll empire?
>>46653630
by having each member from a different troll race,with at least a berzerker, an axe thrower and a witch doctor
>>46653630
>>46653696
And a Zandalari Dinomancer!
>>46653784
wew I almost forgot that one, thanks anon
>>46653826
What map is that? Capital City or Dalaran?
>>46654162
Dalaran.
>>46654162
Cross Island, aka Dalaran from Warcraft 2
This is Tol barad I think, with Stromgarde city on the continent
>>46654162
Dalaran before getting burned down twice
>>46654201
Dalaran didn't get sacked in the canon cersion of WC2, just WC3.
In The Tides of War book retelling Dragons made their debut at Quel Thalas and forced the elves back behind their magic dome wall gate thing.
>>46654201
Is that Kul Tiras or Zul'Dare
Or was Zul'dare on the Dun Modr map?
One thing I liked in the "Main" WoW comic was the neutral underworld Dire Maul and how the different factions participated.
>>46654928
Ogres have kids? And yet still no sight of the elusive female ogre.
>>46654928
I hated how they copy pasted Thrall's gladiator back story to make Varian a character.Also Me'dan.
These sins are unforgivable.
>>46654989
ogre males can mate with most humanoid females, offspring will always be male ogre
>>46655010
Mok'Nathal say otherwise.
>>46655010
That's news to me.
>>46655006
Me'dan was the second arc.
And Varian's gladiator store is pretty different from Thrall's
His was more underworldy. The Gladiatorial arenas were respected but ostensibly not slave involved (Wink wink nudge nudge.)
>>46655027
Mok'Nathal half-ogres are not born naturally, they're created / summoned by magic, also they are infertile.
>>46655115
Rexxar's dad says otherwise.
>>46655190
Where did he go on Draenor? Rexxar is the only mok' nathal the entire expansion.
>>46655317
That's because WoD is a flaccid abortion of an expansion.
>>46654928
>Be over ten thousand years old druid
>Get instantly pissed and ready to maul a dumbfuck retard kid when it does dumbfuck retard stuff
>>46655363
I bet the ogre continent was gonna have them, then boom removed from existence.
>>46655367
He's basically the incarnation of Rage and grief because of some shit that went down when he was keeping the main Hyjal base from getting flanked.
(Namely the artifact he was drawing from getting fel tainted and his daughter dying beside him)
>>46655380
>>46655363
WoD could have been great. But Blizzard pulled all the development team off and gutted half the content they had planned just to more quickly pave the way for Legion.
The real tragedy is when Legion bombs.
>>46655420
Well, that's at least something.
>>46655010
That sounds magical realmy as fuck.
>>46655421
Is it going to? Sure the people in the beta have different opinions.
>>46655512
I really liked the Beta for WoD.
I defended a lot of the content that seemed skim then under the fact that it literally wasn't finished yet and they had a whole expansion's worth of time to develop it.
Yet next to nothing was added that wasn't in the beta and a great deal that WAS was cut out.
Blizzard is really banking on Legion. Part of me is still bitter of the wasted potential of WoD, but I do hope Legion is at least passable.
I will say, as much as I liked them at first, the Garrisons were a huge mistake. It just sequestered people into their own little private zones. It just makes it feel lonely to wander outside and not see crowds of people.
>>46653090
>>46651947
>>46651808
It's called Grand Hamlet.
and yes it was a WC1 stage.
>>46654928
There was a Arena in front of diremaul and it random spawned a boss before.
but the place is too far away from anything important and crazed players prefers the stranglethorn arena instead.
>>46655493
It does. Also, [citation needed]. Never heard of that being a thing at all.
>first Warcraft thread on /tg/
>"Nice, they finally brought it here. We will be able to discuss the lore with depth."
>lurking through the days, the threads are about
>waifus
>faction/race sperging
>self-hate, but "other settings are shit too!!11"
>more faction/race sperging
>actual lore discussions are a minor thing
Cease and desist now, before this turns to /v/ or /vg/.And Jesus, why?!
>>46658041
Well you gotta start the discussion so that others can participate.
>>46658041
>waifus
Please point me the part of 4chan where waifus are not a thing.
When will he be back? It's only a matter of time...
>>46658041
>waifus
At least we're not posting the ones with horsecocks.
>>46658041
>serious discussion about faction/race lore
> sperging
Yeah nothing will work for you.
>>46658253
he is free of the circle.
I want arthas back but if the price is a illidan style dindu nuffin, then arty is better off dead.
RIP Sweet prince, you tried to save your home.
So I tried thinking of why I like Illidan. It's not because I empathise with him. It's because he's a more complex character than basically any other in Warcraft. You can actually have a debate between two people whether he's good or bad (morally).
But I guess the main reason is just that he's interesting. He does things, shit happens and a lot of the time it backfires on him but he comes up with a new scheme, often making new enemies in the process. I fear Legion will ruin him if the Light revelation turns out to be more than a fever dream and is an actual prophecy. It'd destroy what's interesting about him.
>>46658041
It's annoying, too much talk about the game mechanics and design rather than how to translate that to the table. Too many angry ranters obsessed with in-universe recriminations over bad writing.
And people phrasing their ideas strangely.
>>46658851
Not when most of it consists of declaring races "Evil" in universe because of Blizzard's bad writing when as a GM you can freely change all that shit and probably should.
>>46658963
>You can actually have a debate between two people whether he's good or bad (morally)
really? im not a lore expert but i thought he was definitely evil but has done some good things. which is quite different from being a definitely good person who has done a few bad things.
>>46658992
You could say that. He still cares for people though (ie. Tyrande, his brother) after becoming 'evil'. And doesn't go out of the way to harm innocents. Most of the time his enemies are undead or demon. But yeah, he's reckless and selfish.
Either way, whether he's evil with a dash of good or good with a dash of evil, he's still a more morally grey character than any other and I don't want that taken away. Hell I'm fine with him being a villain if he's not shown as a stereotypical villain
>>46658963
You should fully expect the worst when it comes to blizzards writing staff.
>>46659140
To reply to my own post, the reason it was so dumb in BC is because he just became insane™ and it didn't make sense, we should have been working with Illidan.
In Legion that's the case, but if Illidan becomes some holier-than-thou leader of a holy army and everyone thinks he's a swell guy now despite the shit he pulled, well..
I don't think Blizzard realised why people liked him in the first place.
>>46659140
he goes out of the way to harm people. Case in point the entire start of the Night elf campaign in TFT, all the enslaved broken, and flat out lying to kael and not giving him something to feed his addiction.
King made him stupider by having him know everything that was happening and just not giving a shit.
>>46659209
the reason he went crazy is the fucking worst
>illidan went back to karabor and kept replaying his fight with arthas over and over until he convinced himself he won
>they couldve easily had him despair that he may have doomed azeroth with his failure and seeks vengeance on the idiots who let arthas get into power i.e. us
>instead its just NO I WON MOMMY SAID ITS MY TURN TO BE A BOSS and gets killed
>>46659145
Don't worry, I gave up hope years ago.
>>46659248
>>46659247
In fairness, Illidan was probably moderately crazy to start with after being imprisoned for ten thousand years. He was stuck in solitary with Maeiv Fucking Shadowsong as his primary company, when he got that at all.
I'm not saying that he didn't do bad things he is personally responsible for. Illidan is a nasty bit of work who oscillates very rapidly in the alignment of his actions and eats the bad candy like a fat child on halloween.
But he's probably a lot crazier than he needed to be because of his imprisonment, and imprisoning a morally ambiguous immortal indefinitely because you couldn't bring yourself to kill him is pretty fucked up.
>>46659247
Can we ignore BC? It's implied he was making a new well, yet Kael goes rogue because..I guess he couldn't be bothered waiting? Or Illidan kept it from him for some reason? It doesn't make sense.
And yeah he does harm innocents, while trying to do other things, but I'm not sure TFT counts. Did he really order the naga to kill those people in the fishing village? I had assumed they did it themselves while trying to get to Illidan. After all Illidan just wanted a boat, he had no reason to kill them. I don't think he hated all Night Elves like the naga seem to.
>>46659366
Haha yeah, I love the thinking on that one. "No he's my brother! Do the humane thing and lock him up for eternity instead of giving him a clean death"
Jesus christ, Malfurion!
>>46655115
That is incorrect. Mok'Nathal are half-ogres (sometimes quarter-ogres), usually cross-bred with orcs. They occur naturally.
Rexxar himself is 1/4 ogre 3/4 orc.
>>46659376
He is a fucked up powermonger who only thinks about himself. Any good he does is completely beside the point. Illidan worshippers put the cart before the horse in praising him.
>>46658976
then you don't even need to discuss the lore since as a GM you can change everything.
>>46655934
... That looks like it could be fun. Strange but fun.
>>46659448
You can politely discus what you think you would keep without getting emotional over it.
>>46659427
Of course he's selfish, and he does bad things to get what he wants. But he also occasionally does good and cares for those he cares for. I like him because of his flaws. He's a character in a story, not someone I'm going to have to deal with personally in real life.
>>46658992
Illidan is more "ends justify the means" evil, but also "the means don't necessarily need to be cruel or ruthless".
He has done legit terrible things in the name of the greater good and usually he shoulders the burden of unhappy and controversial decisions. Some of the shit he does is pretty short-sighted and borderline retarded though.
It's suspected that he had an *unbelievable* psychotic break after his defeat at the hands of arthas.
>>46659376
>Can we ignore BC? It's implied he was making a new well,
nothing ever implied that. Vashj was gathering the water in Zangermarsh to extort the 90% of Outland that lives in a desert
>>46659404
Honestly, what he did to get locked up in the first place wasn't really proportionate to the crime. Preserving the Well of Eternity, however dangerous it was, makes a lot of sense for a magic-driven society even if they need to rethink some things.
The Highborne fucked off and mutated into High Elves and Blood Elves, in the meanwhile, and you didn't see any of the people who were responsible for that being treated as harshly as Illidan was.
>>46659248
Is that really the reason Blizzard gave? Can you link to it? I don't remember seeing any explanation for why he went insane back when I played BC. Did I miss it or was it something added later?
Still though, that's really dumb.
>>46658963
He was always an evil, selfish cunt who abandoned his allies when things got too hairy and his entire life was a mad chase of power and his brothers wife. Then he got popular and now the book retcons him into eventually leading the army of the light as some kind of holy demon(yes).
>>46659583
Actually the Green Fire questline for warlocks have you go back tothe Black Temple where Akama admits that Illidan was planning on sharing a new Well of Eternity with the Blood Elves but for some reason he never did (which is probably explained in the new Illidan book.
>>46659625
I thought that it was the warlocks your warlock was chasing that had the conversation on "Why didn't he give it to the Blood Elves?" rather than Akama.
>>46659525
The only thing he cares about is himself, everything else doesn't matter. He is the anti-arthas in terms of personality.
>>46659583
>nothing ever implied that. Vashj was gathering the water in Zangermarsh to extort the 90% of Outland that lives in a desert
Can't it be both that and for making a new well?
During some warlock quest, you travel to Black Temple, and you find out that Illidan made a sort-of-new-Well of Eternity, that he gave to demons to sate their lust for magic instead of fel magic. This nicely explains why he has demons working for him while fighting the Burning Legion. Plus he ALWAYS had the Vials, it was always the most obvious decision to create a new Well to support the Blood Elves' addiction, which is what I always assumed was what he used to lure Kael'thas in the first place. Which is why Kael'thas's betrayal makes no sense.
In the end they used that vial for the new Sunwell, so..thanks Illidan, in a roundabout way.
>yfw
>>46659704
He pretty clear clearly does care for others though despite his obvious selfishness. He's not "I'll sacrifice everyone else in order to get what I want", he's more like "I'll do what I have to do to survive even if me fighting means others get hurt". See the difference?
>>46659926
Actually, nevermind that. You guys already knew that one.
>yfw THIS
>>46660011
What about it?
>>46659926
Wait, he's alive, but ALSO still a Diamond?
Fuckin hell man.
>>46660011
That's from the Broken shore test that just went live right?
>>46659786
>In the end they used that vial for the new Sunwell, so..thanks Illidan, in a roundabout way.
>Illidan: "I will save Azeroth from the legion, so you must die, protectors of Azeroth!"
>Kael'thas: "NO! I can't let you save my people by rebuilding the sun well, I would rather sell myself and my people to demons so I can rebuild the sun well!"
>Horde and alliance: "We're going to stop both your nefarious plans, so that we can rebuild the sun well!"
>>46659786
Was it ever explaiend how the fuck he had those vials? Where they were stored? He used 3 for the well, gave Kael and Vash 1 each,. that leaves 2 unaccounted for.
>>46659947
>im going to keep fighting for power and to cuck my brother even if others die!
A true hero.
>>46660011
>running Spider Tank without Mechwarper
Stormwind pls
>>46659595
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Illidan_Stormrage#Burning_Crusade
at the battle for the crimson watch hes all NOT EVEN ARTHAS COULD BEAT ME YOU FUCKING LOSERS
>>46660011
The shut roof indicates that they finally have a model that can show up fully autonomous for the new mecha hunters to train.
>>46660077
It really shows how shit the MMO format is for storytelling. They have to keep turning morally grey characters into straight villains or 'corrupting' good characters who inexplicably become 'insane' to give the players more loot pinatas.
>>46660011
They just need an appropriate voice.
>>46659595
(note, I've not read the new illidan book, I'm going off what people have said from their readings, so some stuff may be off)
no, that's not what happens, at least, not completely. He goes back to outland to start building a new army to face the legion with a "whatever is necessary, greater good of azeroth' attitude, thus he starts pumping orcs with demon blood, he finds a way of getting his own army of demons loyal to him (that one multi faced raid boss in BT that made no sense at the time was some sort of near limitless fountain of souls that Illidan used to mercenary hire out demons with), etc. He then actually launches an attack on the Nathrezim (dreadlord) homeworld to get a powerful artifact and starts planning an attack on Argus using the Nathrezim artifact.
At roughly the same time, the demons decide they want to consolidate their foothold on outland and potentially spread into azeroth again (and this is the part I don't particularly understand), but they open up the dark portal and bait azerothians into attacking, Illidan actually saves the forces of azeroth from getting flanked, then the burning legion plays azerothians against illidan. Over the course of the next 2 months (yup, BC took 2 months from the opening of the dark portal to the fall of BT) azerotians wipe out Illidan WHILE he is trying to launch an attack on Argus.
>>46658890
Jaina calling him back along with Kael for her evil take over when.
>>46660136
I liked the storytelling of BC even if it left many in the dark and some things were left in the dark. The wotlk style of LK showing up in every zone MWAHAHAHAHA I WILL GET YOU NEXT TIME GATGET and his tweeest of just pretending to be retarded was much worse.
>>46660160
He got retconned into a 100% pure good guy
>>46660088
>Was it ever explaiend how the fuck he had those vials? Where they were stored? He used 3 for the well, gave Kael and Vash 1 each,. that leaves 2 unaccounted for.
He got them from just before the Well of Eternity imploded, those vials were the whole reason he got imprisoned (even the attack on Jarod, since that confrontation was caused by the vials). And they were presumably stored the same way his fucking weapons were - in his cell with him. Don't think about it too much, Blizzard certainly didn't.
>>46660077
'Hey, is that a new Sunwell? Cannon ball!'
>>46660206
>Warglaive of Azzinoth(left) (1)
>Warglaive of Azzinoth(right) (1)
>Vial of Eternity (7)
>Overcoat(purple/organge) (1)
>Bootlace(brown) (2)
Dept. Of Corrections, M. Shadowsong.
>>46660183
You're right, it could have been worse. Still though, what we had was shit. Illidan, the enemy of the Burning Crusade, who opened the portal and were supposed to be the main enemy, was made the main enemy of the expansion? They clearly just thought he'd be a cool final boss and then went back retroactively to justify it which is why it was so shit.
Though I do agree, besides that, BC was great fun. Lots of cool stuff and really different zones. Zangarmarsh was my favourite.
>>46660183
Kinda sorta? You're still talking about a dude who fed souls to demons to get them on his side, and force fed demon blood to orcs to make them his slaves...And yeah, there's the whole vision of the light shit, but he's not that person yet, and none of his actions in WC3 or the well of eternity have been retconned (Even the chronicles book says that when he returns to the NE after giving the BL the demon soul a lot of them were suspicious)
>>46660286
The weapons were stored there because of model restraints.
The Vials he probably hid a few of them or slipped them to a sympathizer to stash before his trial.
>>46660160
Yeah I know he gets retconned. I was just wondering what the original motivation was. Honestly I prefer this retcon, but it's still pretty dumb. They've made Illidan and his army waaay too powerful if he's able to full on invade entire demon worlds. And then the people who he saves fucking kill him? Ok, makes sense..not.
I mean I can understand why he saves them, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend type situation. Are the Azerothians not aware of his help or what?
>>46660292
The burning legion opened the dark portal, it wasn't Illidari demons flowing out in the prerelease event, and it was our good ol' friend Kazzak who was stomping around supporting the opening.
Of course, I totally agree with you the Illidan book is trying to retroactively fill in the shit plot that was BC, just saying though.
>>46660136
> Illidan continue to have delusion of grandeur and convinces himself that he's the one who will put down the burning legion.
> He uses terrible shits to do so.
> Alliance are mad because draenei massacres.
> Horde are mad because fell orcs.
> Everyone is mad because he uses demons and is a tyrant "for the cause".
Do we need more to fight him?
>>46660331
Wait, Illidan has sympathisers? He has friends? That's news to me, I thought people followed him because he's their local drug deal-cough- I mean he sates their addiction for magic.
>>46660292
>>46660329
Well, it takes some skill and nuance to write a good anti-hero and present in the light they want to cast. Blizzard cant even write a non-corrupted villain right.
>>46660391
I was playing a human warrior and draenei paladin in BC and always felt none of them would really even care. They want orcs and demons broken and mopped up. If they infight, even better but we are never going to ally them.
>>46660139
As if the Gnomes' normal voice wasn't bad enough.
>>46660438
What's it feel like to be a gigantic faggot?
>>46660391
It's kind of unavoidable though. How the hell do you fill those plotholes and make it come out smelling of roses? I sure as hell don't know how to. In my perfect world it would just be forgotten about and rewritten, but I guess that's not feasible in an MMO where you can still go to Outland.
>>46660206
one vial was stolen (or somehow acquired) by Dath'remar Sunstrider and was used to make the sunwell
>>46659926
>ITSHAPPENING.gif
I FUCKIN' KNEW IT.
I called this back in Cata- him being turned to diamonds, but I knew he'd become a Diamond Earthen at some point in the future. The fact that they referenced to him at all in Thrall's short story where he found out about Pandaria gave me hope that he'd have some future relevance.
>>46659926
Mr Shine! Him diamond!
>>46660209
>>46660400
Sure, I can understand being angry at him, maybe even attacking him for revenge/freeing the fel orcs. But at the same fucking time when the legion are attacking? Surely they could just leave Illidan alone and let him take some of the legion heat to preserve your own forces. Somehow the alliance and horde have enough forces to fight the Legion and some guy chilling in Outland so he doesn't get eaten by demons who also happens to have a very powerful army.
>>46660554
There a reason that's not Arthas on the top, anon?
>>46660496
> "I sure hope nothing important happened while I was...what the hell?"
Guys, the horde leaves varian behind to die.
>>46660685
oh no we lost such an amazing and well-written character in the rich warcraft universe
>>46660709
sylvanas is leading the horde this time.
>>46660486
>illidan could have made like 4 sunwells right away
>>46660586
Well we DID have the forces to fight ALL of them, even the dragoncult, ethereals, ogre clans, Dimensius and his void shits(that fucking retcon tho), everyone got shat on, even the legion.
>>46660709
>mid wotlk he finally declares war on the horde and calls them on their bullshit
>fucking yes, finally
>late cata, he is the one calming down jaina
I have no idea what the fuck was thinking. Its like they are constantly trying to raise the stakes and snap back to status quo the same time.
>>46660591
Because I should already be asleep.
>>46660380
Again, i don't know all the details since I haven't myself read the book
For the whole attacking demon worlds things, the dreadlord world was more of a raid/stealth operation to steal the mcguffin that would let him find Argus. He also didn't plan on attacking Argus when he did, he was building up his army of demon hunters (the legion players), had armies of his own demons, naga, etc and I THINK (again, could be wrong) it was meant to be a suicide assassination attempt to take out KJ/Archi. Unfortunately, with the players knocking, he like tried to rush it, and it got fucked up or something.
And yeah, the azerothians don't know he saved them from the flank, not to mention he probably doesn't trust them/thinks they're interfering...Further, the H&A seem to have a severe lack of information, they have no idea the fel orcs are working for illidan until they intercept the note from Herald Vazruden, and the freaking blood elves still think Kael's their saviour at least throughout the entire hellfire penninsula wing of the campaign.
So yeah, I dunno the specifics of how the legion did it, and its probably pretty hand wavey, but the idea is that the legion used azeroth to do its dirty work with trickery (whichthey're pretty good at)
>>46660685
>Thus, the new hamfisted excuse for Alliance and Horde to hate one another is reborn
I grow weary of this.
>>46660529
He'd have to be allied with the trolls for that.
>>46659477
so basically don't discuss about the WC lore at all.
Its funny why people like you have to keep saying the same thing in different ways.
>>46660795
>the freaking blood elves still think Kael's their saviour at least throughout the entire hellfire penninsula wing of the campaign.
Yeah, I was waiting for the moment when BE would go "Oh shit, our leader is the bad guy!" and it just never came. Like they just forgot they were adoring him right after leaving the peninsula.
>>46659926
Magni: the most worthy king of all Azeroth.
>>46660828
Its like he is dropping somme sick ryhtmes or something
>>46660783
>I have no idea what the fuck was thinking. Its like they are constantly trying to raise the stakes and snap back to status quo the same time.
because the wow writers literally want to write like its a comic book. they want to have all the cool scenes they come up with ideas for. but you can't actually change the status quo too much because the game is still ongoing, so you get the most idiotic results out of the story imaginable.
>>46660088
you can see him taking the water from the well in the Well of Eternity Instance.
the demon soul instance series is the only good thing came out of Catalysm.
>>46660286
You know how people dto hide things in their butt in Prison?
Yeah....
>>46660968
Other than making the well super tiny.
>>46660905
Yeah, they were just on the brink of of becoming an evil dictatorship, they already had demonic crystals, brainwashing, propaganda robots and shit, plus sucking out the essence of a holy creature.
Then Velen just redeems them aganist their will like a fucking chessmaster, turns them into holy elves and then they completely disappear from the lore.
The transition was abrupt and jarring as fuck.
>>46659926
>is now diamonds
would be kek worthy if they tossed in an old spice joke somewhere
>>46660783
Assumedly, he stole the other vials at some undefined point, but decided to use them for other things. It's theorized that the multifaced boss thing from BT was the use of one vial, Vashj is also assumed to have been wanting to make a well of eternity with hers, and well, kael went legion so who knows, maybe he planned on making the sunwell go super saiyan.
as for varian, he didn't try and calm jaina until MoP I'm fairly certain (unless something happened in wolfheart, the shattering, or the jaina book, none of which I read).
So he's the gladiator to a cruel orc, has a good reason to hate orcs, becomes king of tormwind, still hates orcs, wrathgate happens (where both horde and alliance are betrayed) and declares war, H&A fight through wotlk, to the detriment of the scourge campaign because both him and Garrosh are dumb twats, entire cata campaign is Garrosh going hitler with the orcs and alienating the entire rest of the horde, MoP is him going full final solution and losing the entire support of everyone but the orcs, meanwhile wrynn learns that peace is more important than endless conflict and resolves the end of MoP back to roughly vanilla levels of tension. I would hardly say its them trying to consistently reset the status quo.
It's essentially vanillla, BC being uneasy peace/cold war, early wrath being cold war, mid wrath being war breaks out, WoD being war escalates, MoP being war hitting its climax, then end of MoP peace with WoD going back to uneasy peace (the only significant H/A conflict in WoD is ashran, and the occasional spy in your garrison)
>>46660968
I knew that from the books already, which they retconned yet again. It was just never explained how or where he got them from. The quest just went "yeah, those exist, now kill Kael and Vashj of you want to travel in time"
>>46661052
>occupy the capital of your enemy
>tone down the music guys.... p-please
SoO appeased no one.
Also, I was seriously hoping Kael would drink the vial and go super saiyan.
>>46660685
but varian turned into a race traitor white guilt whinny faggot
its great that he dies. double for tirion
now we just need the traitor khadgar to kick the bucket
>>46660685
My friend in the alpha says the cinematic isn't implemented so the exact reason the alliance thinks the Horde is responsible for Varian isn't in game yet.
>>46661040
There was that one even with BE paladins becoming actual paladins but that was what, Sunwell plateau? That was fucking late.
>>46661122
the datamined voices say that sylvie turns and runs. The funeral shows Jaina and Genn demanding vengeance.
>>46660905
>>46661040
yup, BC's story telling is poor to say the least, I think its supposed to be implied that what BE were seeing in outland didn't reach Quel'thalas until a good period of time into the campaign. I think its even stated somewhere (like in the sunwell release article? Iunno) that BEs were shocked when he appears in Silvermoon city, kills a bunch of people then takes M'uru...Then its essentially like their perfect image of their flawless leader is shattered, and that's when they get redeemed by the light. Of course, its all poorly done and hardly shown in game at all except with Liadrin and A'dal and the sunwell, but.
Note, the BE actually get a pretty cool arch in MoP where they consider leaving Garrosh's orctatorship, then lead the horde charge against one of the main (and arguably, strongest) big bads of MoP
>>46661076
Vashj and Kael is TBC cavern.
Demon soul is cata cavern.
Not only it kicked out Knaak's crap (I hate broxigar), the instances themselves are short and enjoyable enough to play.
>>46660927
but, the story of the HvA has had a pretty steady arch.
Things were mostly stable at "uneasy peace/cold war" from vanilla to early wotlk, then mid wotlk wrathgate happens and war breaks out...From mid wrath to the end of MoP was a straight intensification of conflicts up to where Garrosh's horde is defeated and conflict relapses into "uneasy peace" going into WoD with the only significant conflict being Ashran and the occasional spy in your garrison.
>>46661113
>Also, I was seriously hoping Kael would drink the vial and go super saiyan.
I can see the scene
> "Stop Kael'thas, you should know by now that creating sun well never work out! Just give us the vi..."
> He gulps the vial like it's a fucking whiskey flask.
>>46661199
>Not only it kicked out Knaak's crap (I hate broxigar), the instances themselves are short and enjoyable enough to play.
Why? Brox was like, the least Sue of Knaak's OCs.
He was just an Orc that was very good at hitting things with an Axe.
Mind you the Nightelves knowing of an Orc causes all fucking KINDS of paradoxes unless Norzdomu decided to give them a mindwipe that only expired AFTER the battle of Mt Hyjal.
>>46661052
He tried to calm Jaina in Tide of War, which you didn't read, but you can always just check wiki for it.
Varian always hated Orc since before he was even king.
The orcs murdered his father, destroyed his kingdom, slaughtered lots of his subject, made them refugee, killed his uncle and mentor. And have being a dick to the alliance ever since.
The last guy who have a reason to like Orc is Varian.
Actually its just Garrosh being a dumb twat if you actually read the dialogues during WoTLK except ICC's super retarded gunship battle.(the entire fight makes no sense)
>>46659926
Isn't that the older Dwarf model they're using?
>>46661292
I hate every one of Knaak's Character
So good riddance to all of them.
Which makes it even better that Knaak WoTA gets kicked out of the main universe.
>>46661113
Eh, I guess SoO was kinda a "gotta keep the status quo" type thing, but I think they did a decent job of it anyhow since literally the entire horde was alienated from him except his orcs and it was kinda a big decision moment for Wrynn...
Either he can choose to turn on the horde and launch a long and brutal war of extermination that will tax both sides heavily, which is not only evil, but pretty costly for the alliance
Or he can show lenience and give a no longer orc dominated horde a chance to prove its worth (seriously, almost everything horde in WoD is dominated by non orc races).
Now, I can agree that he probably should've gotten some sort of reparations from the horde, but eh. (an maybe he did even, we have no way of seeing how the political lines of kalimdor change post SoO, and I do believe there's a short story set in Pandaria involving horde withdrawal and hunting down garrosh loyalists) but having too harsh reparations would just lead to resentment.
>>46661295
>The last guy who have a reason to like Orc is Varian.
and yet the fist thing he thinks when orcs come through the wod dark portal is that surly these noble warriors can be reasoned with
maraad had to fucking argue with him and point out orcs were genocidal murder machines
>>46661388
> exterminate horde
> evil
>>46661388
>Either he can choose to turn on the horde and launch a long and brutal war of extermination
They have just WON a long and brutal war of extermination.
Literally NONE of the numerous alliance issues got even mentioned, he just want "play nice, kids"
>>46661391
Post WoTLK Varian is trash
>>46661434
yeah i know i made the point here already >>46661120
>>46661470
its funny how Horde is always the aggressor but the alliance is the one who is being apologists.
>>46661295
He basically said "I want to invade Orgrimmar the conventional way, no magical WMDs" in the Jaina book.
(And was actually in the middle of a conventional naval strike at the moment Jaina tried to tidal wave Org, she would have wiped out the alliance fleet too if she wasn't stopped.)
Sadly even with Jaina switching to a more "Smart Targeting" swarm of individual elementals the Alliance fleet only managed to break the Horde's blockade, not to seize Durotar.
>>46661352
The Sunwell instance could well have taken place AFER Brox was on the other side of the portal.
And I like Falstad and Rom, Brox is pretty okay, just a more expendable version of his brother. Early on Rhonin was just "Eh, sorta decent" and Krasus was enough of a cold asshole with a character arc to not totally suck. Veressa was unnecessary but at the same time not outright offensive.
>>46661391
>and yet the fist thing he thinks when orcs come through the wod dark portal is that surly these noble warriors can be reasoned with
Uh, no? They just needed a segue for the Frostwolf Clan so he asked if there were any tribes that were not going to join the wave of death.
It was phrased quite awkwardly though I will admit.
>>46661490
Blame Kosak.
Personally, I'd probably set my game earlier than some of the stupid developments and use a mroe WC3 style Horde.
I just don't see much narrative use for the stupidly aggressive Orcs and Forsaken.
That said I'm the kind of person who plans to let people play Dark Iron Dwarves and all sorts of the "Always aggressive" creep races.
>>46661295
True, true, for some stupid ass reason I always think his family died while in Lordaeron to the scourge, I have no idea why. Still, the idea is he's supposed to see through his hatred to a theoretical greater good and while like I said I didn't read the jaina book, I do remember there being 2 or 3 MoP scenarios involving Wrynn realizing punching things isn't the best way to leadership. Wasn't Jaina also wanting to literally kill everyone in Orgrimmar or something though? If that's what he was wanting to talk her out of, it might be sort of reasonable.
Also, yup, you're right it was mostly Garrosh .There was even a sort story where a bunch of horde destroy an alliance force besieging the gate after wrathgate and both forces die (its also a small quest area in icecrown) and instead of garrosh reprimanding the general for fucking giving the scourge a bunch of new soldiers, he reprimands the general for attacking from behind dishonourably which shows just how pig headed dumb Garrosh is...I do want to point out though, Wrynn did want to try and kill Thrall in battle for undercity when Thrall was trying to clean up the betrayal too, and is obviously one of the most peace advocating, least orcy orc around :P
and yup, gunships were also hilariously dumb, literally on the doorstep of one of the gravest threats to azeroth, better let petty conflicts get in the way!
![maraad[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/EMAeD3K.jpg "maraad[1].jpg")
>>46661120
>>46661470
nvr5get
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6LIty6Uea4
>>46661617
what a fool.
You know what confused me sometimes? How the fuck is a tree man that's like thirty feet tall supposed to instruct seven foot tall amazon elves in fighting? They have completely different requirements.
>>46661570
The concept of the fight was just too good not to enjoy.
Temporarily testing their might against some of the greatest non-leader NPCs of the enemy faction, and getting to see the gunships do SOMETHING.
>>46661182
Time to kill a bitch!
>>46661570
No, he even praises the general and calls hima true horde commander or some shit.
>>46661554
Yeah instead doing it the smart way and cooridnate his force with Jaina's WMD and wipe the evil that is Orc off azeroth forever.
Nope, cause Korial and Ronin are cut too.
This is the "No Knaak character" WoTA timeline.
And I have enough of Mary Sues Orcs already.
>>46661570
The broken front quest
The Alliance were fighting the scourge and then the Horde in all their intelligence decides to attack the Alliance force, then gets everybody killed by the scourge.
Then they did it again in Twilight Highland.
The stupidity of Orcs is hilarious.
>>46661490
Shit writing. I fucking loved the WC3 concept of the horde, a bunch of shamanistic tribal underdogs trying to forge a new, more peaceful destiny for themselves while taking shit from no one. Then its horde-lite again as the forsaken are scourge-lite.
>>46661182
Link it.
The Warcraft setting as it is now is so bleak.
The people on Azeroth literally only have two choices. Fight and almost definitely lose against Sargeras and the Burning Legion so Azeroth is destroyed or happen to win against Sargeras and then Azeroth hatches in to the Void Titan and everything is FUBAR
>>46661850
So Azeroth is Cadia now
>>46661755
I don't think Rhonin was AT the portal was he? I thought he only arrived to help get people evacuated.
He was at the front line.
>>46661850
Or hatches into a normal titan since it only has three Old gods left on it, two of which have been severely beaten back into a "Death State" and all of which are at least partially imprisoned.
That may still kill us all, but only way down the line.
>>46661490
I mean, the horde were clearly the bad guys in MoP and sorta bad in cata, but its not totally beyond being able to understand
>duped by demons to becoming murder slave machines
>given unnatural bloodlust
>defeated, regain senses and get put in prisons
>get lethargic now that the demon corruption has left
>treated like shit
>get freed
>flee to a promised land to build anew peacefully
>get given a desert
>shitty soil
>little water
>Hey there's nice fertile forest -
>oh nevermind, hyper defensive elves
>shoot first, ask questions never
>Humans follow the orcs
>Humans attack the orcs
>alliance formed to fight demons
>orcs still stuck with desert, no forest
>Alliance try to kill the trolls, destroy org, etc
>some peace in vanilla
>attacked by demons
>attacked by scourge
>Still in shitty ass desert, struggling to survive
>Son of a legend and a war hero returns
>Peaceful leader leaves
>war hero promises a return to greatness
>you do the math
It's really not hard to see where the orcs were coming from in cata, and they fought their battles pretty nobly in cata...Meanwhile literally the entire rest of the horde is getting super alienated.
By MoP, the rest of the horde doesn't even want to be part of the horde and even many orcs question it (Nazgrim, possibly one of the best orcs after saurfang, stays with garrosh out of a sense of duty and regrets having to fight his friends, the players).
It doesn't forgive the orcs for going to war in Cata, but until MoP, the war in Cata is no different than any human war the various human kingdoms assuredly had prior to most of them falling.
Also, the alliance arguably were the initiators of the war during the events of wrathgate, since varian tries to assassinate thrall while both the horde and alliance are bringing the traitors to justice.
>>46661882
Havent you heard? Old gods got demoted into minions of the void lords.
>>46661883
First two lines wrong already. Garrosh and all the brown dindus chimped out and genocided the draenei without any serious input.
>>46661878
but now we got demons to fight the demons!THIS IS A BAD FUCKING IDEA!
>>46661922
>First two lines wrong already. Garrosh and all the brown dindus chimped out and genocided the draenei without any serious input.
Other than their anscestor spirits who had never been wrong before warning them the Draenei were planning to exterminate them.
(Actually demons but the Orcs didn't fucking KNOW that)
>>46661832
in the horde variant of gunship the alliance attack, and both sides are attacking each other all over the twilight highlands. At that point I'm fairly certain they were both just flat out trying to claim the Twilight Highlands for their faction, it was just kinda part of the war, fairly certain the BoT was seen as the objective to get AFTER the opposing faction was taken are of by both sides.
>>46661882
Broxigar bid Rhonin farewell before he jump into the portal.
If Rhonin isn't there that means broxigar isn't there.
The "old gods can't be killed" thing is basically retconed at this point.
Titans just didn't kill them because the damage might be too great.
>>46661962
Pretty sure he's refering to the WoD orcs, who funnily enough, still had a similar thing happen where Garrosh tells Grom about the bad future of the orcs, they go to talk to the ancestors,and Garrosh pretty much cuts off the vision right at the point where the horde gets totally fucked, and leaves out the part where grom and thrall redeem them, leading Grom to believe Garrosh's way was the only way to not have the future the spirits showed happen
>>46661883
Orcs attacked the Human on Kalimdor , not the other around , if you remember "Cry of the Warsong".
Its about Grom going full retarded.
And the Orcs did try to genocide the Humans.
They have no right to complain, at all.
>>46661962
Which they should noticed something is wrong when the spirits and elementals ditched them.
But they just go "its cowardly to think! We become warlock now to slaughter more Draenei!"
They had it coming.
>>46661985
No, the Alliance side of twilight highland start involves some stupid shit about Fargo Flintlocke.
The Horde Side Garrosh attacks the alliance then gets fucked by Deathwing Personally.
>>46661570
And then, after we won the gunship disappears and doesnt even help us anymore.
>>46661962
The WoD orcs did the same with no corruption whatsoever. Garrosh was a bloodthirsty retard too.
>>46661882
They have their roots way down in to the core
>>46661928
You're right. Thats why THE SCOURGE IS BACK IN TOWN, THE SCOURGE IS BACK IN TOWN YEAAAAH!
>>46662087
Didn't they scrap the longer Alliance intro to the Twilight Highlands for some reason?
>>46662044
yup, I remember, it was like at the entrance to medihv's cave or something, and considering that they went to kalimdor to escape the humans, they might be a bit rightfully angry when not only does it seem like the humans have chased them down but also blocked their path to the place they needed to go AND he was being affected by the demons again, he even says it
>>46662058
yup, once they've already started turning green and the apprentice of their greatest spiritual leader keeps telling them its ok, and they've already kinda passed a point of no return.
Loving the fact that in legion mages are hunting down threats with in Dalaran.
>>46662157
DK's are turning Whitemane in to a horsemen!
There was a short story I read where naga emit poison from their mouth, soIllidan commits suicide by kissing Vashj. Also she loves him and he just made her murder him.
Is naga producing venom in their mouths true or was it just part of the story? It sounds like something that could be true.
>>46651205
>>46662196
Because Kosak wants to show his character in game.
>>46662238
el presidente gets a bitching sarcophagus at least.
>>46662091
No, Garrosh comes back, shows Grom a vision up to the point where the orcs get fucked and put in imprisonment camps, then stops the vision before it shows the bit where Grom and Thrall redeem the orcs, he then convinces grom that the only way from keeping the internment camps from happening is to go with Garrosh's plan.
>>46662087
There's the alliance attack on the kraz works, but still the battle for twilight highlands was certainly real and I don't think its fair to say that the alliance were not wanting to fight the horde for control of it.
>>46662205
Nope, You remember all wrong.
Cry of Warsong is Grom attack an archmage's settlement then going nuts and attack other humans despite Thrall's Direct order.
Grom was a very impulsive person who is not being reasonable for most of his life, and Orcs use this guy as a hero.
You can see how well it goes.
No, they only turn green after lose exposure of warlock power, and Orc warlocks didn't even exist at this point.
They had the chance, they never thought of taking it.
>>46662308
And then the supposedly peaceful and not-murderous orcs go and genocide the draenei anyway and later drink guldans koolaid.
>>46662308
The fight was about Destorying the twilight hammer in the region.
Horde did start the fight.
>>46662238
>>46662091
>The WoD orcs did the same with no corruption whatsoever. Garrosh was a bloodthirsty retard too.
And WoD was retarded and I have zero intention of ever running or playing a game that revolves around keeping WoD the way it is.
>>46662109
Yet the titans considered their prisons good enough to stop the corruption from actively reaching the Titan's soul and for the most part they were right even after the shattering sorta broke it a bit.
>>46662339
>>46662351
ah, yeah you're right, he is attacking, my bad.
But he does still say the demons presence is affecting him at the end when thrall reprimands him.
you're also right, the green doesn't come til' later, but they were already neck deep in draenei blood on the word of the "spirits" by the time the spirits go silent...At that point its a tiny bit late to backpedal when you're on full war footing and you suddenly lost one of your biggest advantages. Gul'dan tells them its all k though and tells them about this new power that they don't really know is evil, but do know its spiritual leader approved and helps win against the draenei. It could probably be argued that warlock-ery got sold to a lot of shamans as just a variant way to talk with the spirits since that's how they first caught Ner'zhul anyhow.
>>46661678
Ancients are constructed from wisps - the souls of dead night elves. They are literally the soul of a night elf in extremely enchanted wood and are unbelievably knowledgeable about [thing].
Ancients of War would be knowledgeable about all sorts of fighting; a giant repository of martial knowledge that was once a night elf. They also concern themselves with maintaining equipment like bows, glaives and shields, as well as the animal husbandry of the night sabres (though part of that has to do with the huntress halls too).
Ancients of Lore would be similar shit, but more about magic and well 'ancient esoteric knowledge'. They know about the stone giants, the daughters of cenarius and they're revered by druids of the claw for their insights into the emerald dream.
Ancients of Wind serve a similar purpose, but are slightly more concerned with animal husbandry (particularly hippogriffs). They also deal with faerie dragons and druids of the talon.
Then we get to the ancient of wonders, which holds all sort of artifacts and speshul stuffz.
And finally ancient protectors, which are just big rock throwing bullies.
>>46662234
Some have poisonous blood, so it stands to reason that some have venom glands.
>>46662442
Too bad its canon. The orcs are canon dindus who did the exact same shit again with no excuses.
ITT
guys, quick
i need your most badass warlocks
Do you bitches lift!?
>>46662552
Teron Gorefiend. Fuck what WoD did to him
>>46662478
No he says he its like the demons are near and he is enjoying his bloodlust.
Grom drank the blood willingly fully knowing the consequence, remember?
so you are saying its ok to just keep genociding people as long as you think you are winning?
Wow the Orcs truly are evil.
>>46662565
forgetting leg day, like usual
>>46662512
>Ancients are constructed from wisps - the souls of dead night elves. They are literally the soul of a night elf in extremely enchanted wood and are unbelievably knowledgeable about [thing].
Not ALL wisps are the souls of Dead elves.
Some are legit nature spirts, Aessina the Grand Wisp is just an Ancient (Cenarius/Malorne/Aggammagan style) and she has some wisps like her.
>>46662527
Okay, whatever. Every tibe that isn't the frostwolf or left out of WoD entirely as too minor or too confusing are evil Dindus in the AU.
>>46662565
I liked the old one better, less purple more black and blue, less looking like a weird jacked dude who skipped EVERY leg day since the beginning of time.
Love the high res bracers though.
>>46662512
ahh no, the wisp constructing ancient is a game mechanics.
Ancients are a race of demi-god like trees that exists for a long time, much like Treants in LOTR.
>>46662629
>tfw they literally just forgot Stormreaven and Dragons Maw
>Warsong Island retconned
>burning blade retconned into honorabru faggots and an actual clan instead of legion fanatics
>>46662398
The fight started at the battle for undercity, both sides are willing to fight absolutely anywhere. The horde ambushes an alliance fleet on the way to twilight highlands, yes, but if you look absolutely everywhere they're both already fighting, neither side wants to let the other have a foothold in the twilight highlands and they both say the other side's looking for a fight in quests.
>>46662565
I DON'T LIKE THIS PLACE
>>46662624
He doesn't have legs you racist.
So, when do you guys actually start talking about traditional games?
It seems like all you're doing is /vg/ talk.
>>46662678
And the Horde started the bullshit at wraithgate for failing to keep in check of their WMD.
The Horde is ALWAYS the Aggressor in WoW.
horde/orc butthurt never ceases to amuse
>>46662719
The forsaken were busy killing sleeping druids and attacking civilians in vanilla and had active agents and quests as far as Duskwood.
>>46662673
>>tfw they literally just forgot Stormreaven and Dragons Maw
No, Stormreavers were an extinct clan on Draenor, Gul'dan only stole the name in Warcraft 2 for his Shadowcouncil Remnants. (or was he using it as early as Rise of the Horde?)
And they said they deliberately removed the Draenor Dragonmaw clan because Garrosh had the MU Dragonmaw as well and it would just get confusing.
Clans like Lightning Blade were removed or rolled into their "Patron Clan" in the case of LB that means the Thunderlords.
>>46662717
Welcome to Warcraft lore now fuck off!
>>46662662
>ahh no, the wisp constructing ancient is a game mechanics.
You haven't actually supported your contradiction. While wisps constructing things may be a 'game mechanic', nothing says that they are not the basis for magical nature spirit trees. Wisps are both naturally occuring and the souls of dead night elves, they've *always* been associated with ancients, healing their wounds and such, and as a "game mechanic" they're shown becoming ancients as well.
"Embodied in this ancient guardian are the spirits of courage and determination that are necessary to propel the will of the night elves. Calling upon the long forgotten energies of conflicts from ages past, this guardian provides a link to the brutal side of nature and the cycle of life and death that rules all creation" that's from the Wc3 manual. If "spirits" are embodied in the ancient and wisps are spirits, it is no great leap of logic to say that wisps are capable of becoming ancients.
>>46662605
Grom Hellscream: Don't lecture me, pup! The wretches deserved death! Don't you feel it, Thrall? It's like the old days...like the demons are near.
Thrall: I don't know what's come over you and your men, but this bloodlust is a liability that I can't afford.
Grom Hellscream: I'm sorry, Thrall. You're right. I...I can handle it.
The bloodlust is affecting his mind, his very next line is him saying he can control it. When something is demon corrupted of course they/it "likes" the feeling of rage.
and I remember the night elves being not so friendly to the orcs and willing to murder fuck them, And again, the orcs are still tainted by the demon blood, quote from Tichondrius
"Yes, but so are yours. The blood pact that you made with the orcs long ago still binds them to you. You need only recharge their energies.
"
So yes, grom drinks the kool aid again in his BLOODLUST, and some of the orcs even argue against drinking the kool aid this time around, but they can't resist, and they drink.
>>46662717
Complaining about things is the most traditional /tg/ game.
>>46662756
Gul'dan only started using the Stormreaver clan once they arrived on Azeroth.
>>46662719
That's like saying that humans are the aggressors of all WOTLK because Arthas is the LK.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the forsaken, but it's literally a semi secret society of forsaken that betray the alliance and horde equally, remember? and the horde even ends up taking in forsaken refugees because the forsaken were betrayed too?
>>46662839
They are their own race according to the god awful novel "Stormrage"
And they use seeds to create more of their own kind according to ask Cdev.
so you can stop using your own head canon.
>>46662877
>horde leader gives an order to develop a WMD
>uses a horde organization
>develops with the help horde personnel in horde bases
>housed in a horde capital
>entire project personallly overseen by her
>even other forsaken gets sacrificed as test subjects in the arthas book
>when they are about to deploy in renegades fire it first
>after the insurrection gets crushed they continue to keep using it on everyone
Yeah nah. Forsaken are being scourge light amd getting away because of sylvanas' midriff.
>>46662903
Your statement does not actually refute mine. Being extremely generous it makes it 'unclear' or 'uncertain'.
>>46662903
They may actually be a mix of it.
Sometimes the wisps create them as bodies others are seedlings fed power by a wisp in order to incarnate.
>>46662841
> Witch Doctor: The pool emanates great power, but I smell stench of a demon curse about it!
> Grom Hellscream: I am cursed already! If I must drink from these waters to defeat Cenarius, then I will.
> Warsong Orc: No! That goes against everything the warchief teaches us! We can't let rage overcome us again!
> Grom Hellscream: No, warrior. We must embrace it as never before! We must become the vessels of destruction that we were meant to be
Grom drank the kool-aid AGAIN BY HIS OWN CHOICE despite people telling him not to.
They could have resisted but Grom told them not to BECAUSE HE LIKES IT.
>>46662941
>>The ancients were among the first creatures of Azeroth, the first guardians of its life.
>> The ancients, on the other hand, suffered heavy losses during the Third War, with many, especially the varieties that were never in great supply to begin with,
> returning to the forests to hopefully spread their seeds and replenish their numbers undisturbed.
Meanwhile, being extremely generous, your theory is just a bunch of bullshits you stitched up.
>>46662957
>They could have resisted but Grom told them not to BECAUSE HE LIKES IT.
kill all Warsongs desu
>>46662987
>I disagree with you, but cannot actually refute your position, EVEN SO I AM GOING TO BE BELLIGERENT
You can't actually prove me wrong or yourself right anon, the information outright doesn't exist. So being extremely generous, fuck off and stop trying to push your headcanon as the one true headcanon.
>>46662924
There was the bit where I said "not defending the forsaken", and the royal apothecary society isn't exactly this hugely public resource that tells the entire horde about its going ons, and while she may have used it against the alliance later on, in wrath it was meant to be explicitly used against the scourge and I think the horde doesn't even want her using it (though I know she does in northern EK a bunch in cata).
I've never liked the forsaken anyhow though, they're a bunch of semi evil (at best) dicks, but still the wrath use of the plague that started the war was done by non horde aligned forces at that point, it really is like saying "humans are evil cause they are the main members of the cult of the damned/twilight cultists/arthas/medihv" or "dwarves are evil because dark iron"
>>46663064
you mean aside from the fact that you don't have a spirit to use when you are the first creature to exist in the world?
so fuck off and stop pushing your headcanon on the board.
>>46662673
Warsong Island is Ashran, it's never really touched other than that. They easily could have claimed it in between defeating the Gorian Empire and opening the Dark Portal
>>46663064
> every line quoted from official publications
> call it head-canon
Yeah you have a problem.
>>46663071
> this hugely public resource that tells the entire horde about its going ons
Random tauren faggots in stonetalon know about them and ask you get magatha to get some of their poison shit there.
I really liked the palplable desperation and angry lashing out of the early forsaken. Huddling around in abandoned human buildings, desperately fighting away the scourge from barricades, collecting scraps to survive. it was great and really touching sometimes.
Then they are all mustache twirling villains now. Which I could tolerate. Then they always win their every fight. Then they are getting painted as poor misunderstood underdogs.
>>46662957
Again though, it's because he's already corrupted as all orcs are...There;s a reason why when mannoroth 'dies' its said to release the orcs from the blood curse, and right before that is the quote I gave you from Tichondrius.That's the whole point about the corruption, that the taint is in them and they can't resist it.
A drug addict likes heroin, he still gets 'happy' (or closer to 'happy') when he uses it, if you put a needle in front of him he'll relapse. Admittedly heroin doesn't normally directly imply murder when its used, but its a similar concept only now its reinforced by magic curse shit literally mentally goading him and all orcs to fall into the bloodlust...That's why it's such a hugely important moment when Grom sacrifices himself to literally break the curse
>>46663075
>among the first creatures
There's a big difference between being 'among the first' and 'the first'. This also doesn't refute the wisp theory, as wisps are again both naturally occurring and the spirits of dead night elves, so again the information does not exist to refute my position.
Spirits are part of a primal force of nature as >>46661470 which comes from the big 'lore of warcraft universe' book, they can just *come to be* without even needing intelligent life. In fact spirits are a layer deeper than the emerald dream, so "spirits" are part of the fundamental forces of the universe which *created* the prime material plane.
>so fuck off and stop pushing your headcanon on the board.
Tu quoque
>>46663151
Then explain how the WoD orcs, who never got corrupted or garrosh and his mag'har patsies were just as bloodthirsty and genocidal.
>>46663112
>quoting an 'official publication'TM allows you to extrapolate information to cover things that were never outright stated!
You have a problem as well, it's called being shitty at logical thought.
>>46663151
Yeah except they did it willingly and knowingly as both stated in WC3 and Rise of the Horde.
Grom was the first one to drank because he REALLY liked it, which is why he beat Blackhand to it.
Seriously trying to paint Orcs in good color will get you no where.
>>46663169
Among the First still means there's nothing else before you guys appears. there will be no spirit for you to use since you are the FIRST.
So yes the statement does refute your position, you just refuse to accept it.
It used creature, not animals, meaning natural wouldn't exist before ancients appear.
So yeah, bad news on that excuse as well.
So again, fuck off and stop pushing your headcanon on the board.
>>46663193
coming from the idiot who use headcanon on all the holes in his theory with nothing to back it up.
>>46663144
Eh, I didn't say they were totally unknown either, and I'll admit I don't remember the classic quest you're referring to, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was still a limited knowledge that yes, horde forces (especially grimtotem) do know the organization works with poisons and such...I mean, I'm sure most of the non human alliance races know of SI7 and its general purpose of spying, but they don't know all about what it does.
and eh, I'unno, they do need some sort of expanding on. Beyond Sylvanas turning into bitch queen (yup, I'll agree that the horde is majourly fucking up by not putting a cap on her, no defense there) I dunno what's really up with the forsaken. I still don't have a good understanding of what the forsaken want now (are they gonna try and seek domination, or do they just want northern eastern kingdoms? Are they still using the val'kyr even though Garrosh is no longer forcing them to shred troops? What the fuck happens to all the Nuforsaken that both don't lose their minds and don't side with sylvanas? I seem to recall it being said that it was a semi common occurence in tirisfal, so surely there's more non forsaken forsaken running around other than lilian...)
>>46660286
You forgot
>Lubricant
>Semen-stained picture of Tyrande Whisperwind
>>46663169
oh yeah I just noticed Wisp's description blows your theory to pieces.
"Wisps are ancient spirits of nature that inhabit the forestlands of Kalimdor. Legends say that wisps are actually the disembodied spirits of deceased night elves, but these rumors have yet to be proven. The wisps act in unison with the night elves and serve to strengthen the demigod-like trees known as the ancients"
go ahead and keep using a single line from AoW to push your headcanon
>>46663259
The other Horde memebers know the royal apothecary researches potion and cure diseases,
(as shown in some quest dialogue)
but no one knew they were making a new plague.
The forsaken had and always wanted to, kill everything and make them suffer like they do.
It was literated a few times as far back as vanilla.
>>46663170
they were tricked in the same way as the main orcs essentially. I've explained it like 3 times this thread actually lol
Garrosh goes to Grom and shows him a SPIRIT vision of the orcs getting dicked and tossed into internment camps and such and shows him how the orcs have fallen, but then stops the vision before showing him and thrall redeeming the orcs...This is almost the same exact way the first orcs fell to demons, Ner'zhul is shown false visions by demons posing as spirits telling him orcs are doomed unless the draenei die
Garrosh then tells grom the only way from keeping the spirit vision from happening is following Garrosh's path, seeing the alternate future granted him by the spirits, Grom agrees.
>>46663208
He drank the demon blood long after the bloodlust from fel corruption had set in though, as mentioned higher up in my post, demons posing as spirits told the orcs that they had to kill the draenei or doom would befall them, when the elements stopped heeding their call, Gul'dan introduced warlock magic to the orcs to continue the war, by the time they drank the demon blood, they were already fel infused, and that just 100% sealed it.
>>46663355
>tricked
>this random guy showed us a vision, better forma gigantic war machine and genocide this entire race
>>46663343
I dunno about all living creatures, at least as a forsaken wide goal. I'm certain there were (and are) many forsaken that want to see the world bathed in forsaken style undeath, but I think there are probably more that just want to see their enemies dead (or undead)...Like, I don't think they'd invade kalimdor, dunno about eastern kingdom, but hey maybe they'd stop at the thandol span.
>>46663232
>So yes the statement does refute your position
No it doesn't. You're of the position that something (presumably corporeal) needs to have existed *before* in order for a spirit to be around, and that is outright untrue of the warcraft universe, spirits are things that can just *happen* with no need for the corporeal. That is exactly how the emerald dream and the wild gods occured, and those are both intricately linked to the prime material.
>here will be no spirit for you to use since you are the FIRST.
Spirits can and do just spontaneously occur. They are an aspect of nature, a primal force of creation, their existence is not dependent upon anything else.
You fundamentally fail to understand how the warcraft universe is constructed.
>So again, fuck off and stop pushing your headcanon on the board.
Cry more please.
>>46663316
Oh boy that totally inconclusive line absolutely ruins everything! It sure says that wisps have absolutely nothing to do with ancients and that they're not nature spirits AND that they're actually the opposite!
You are trying to say you are 1000% correct where a gap in information exists, until someone actually tied to the warcraft universe decides to write it, we are both equally as right. Stop shitting up the board because you aren't capable of respecting different but equally valid positions.
>>46663389
The SPIRITS showed grom the vision, and the vision is ENTIRELY true.
Orcs placed a huge amount of trusts in spirits, they had guided the orcs through their spiritual leaders and shamans through thousands of years. Hell even the naaru inside oshu'gun had some sort of deal with them to help protect it.
When the spirits show you a vision, you take it seriously, especially when that vision is of your people battered, bloodied, and conquered.
If an entity of the holy light (a powerful naaru or something) floated down into the middle of stormwind and told all the humans to kill all gnomes, you'd bet a dollar to a dime there's be a hell of a lot of gnome blood on the streets.
>>46663422
No i am of the position that earthly spirits don't exist before the Old god crap ended, we have Chronicle now, we know how everything happened.
"spirit came first " is simply untrue.
Nope they don't, there was no nature before the nature was made.
You obviously didn't read chronicle.
yeah all you can use to support your argument is more head canon, how fun.
another one of these guys, again.
Its ruins your "ancient have a spirit in it" bull shit, which is enough to kill your theory dead, you just refuse to accept it because man you love your headcanon.
Yes I am saying I am correct since you have nothing to support your argument except headcanon.
>>46663232
You're committing the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo proptor hoc, "therefore, because of".
It is a mistake of chronological ordering. eg "The rooster crows immediately before sunrise; therefore the rooster causes the sun to rise."
Spirits in wow don't exist because the prime material exists, the prime material exists because spirits exist. All those things on the outside of >>46661470 existed *before* the shit on the center.
