How does faith work in a setting where the existence of ones God is a confirmed fact?
>>46627855
Faith empowers gods.
Lack of faith disempowers gods.
If there aren't enough people that believe in a god, the god vanishes from existence or ceases to be a god.
It's not exactly rocket surgery, yknow.
>>46627855
Have you tried not playing DnD?
But seriously, if you're a GM, never do this. NEVER confirm the existence of gods, ever.
>>46627855
Faith is connection to the god. God doesn't need worshipers or sacrifices but they might provide spiritual power to his servants like clerics, prophets and angels.
>>46627884
But then that means clerics and paladins won't work. And more games than D&D have gods confirmed to exist.
>>46627913
You can have clerics and paladins work. You just don't confirm their powers come from a god. It comes from a power that only they can connect with, that they honestly believe is a god, but have no way of proving. That way their faith is actually FAITH, instead of them just choosing a winning team.
>>46627913
>But then that means clerics and paladins won't work.
Placebo spells.
>>46627928
I'm pretty sure their faith is still faith, as they believe in the power of their diety, the power their diety exerts on the world, and the powers that the worshippers of the diety draw from said diety with their faith.
>>46627855
In such a case it's not faith, it's support. It's like a presidential candidate. I don't BELIEVE one exists, one candidate or party represents my personal philosophies and life decision more than others so I support them. Conan admired the strength of Crom under the mountains and lived to be like that image, and subotai the rogue lived worshiping the nimble trickster god of the winds. Paladins and Clerics choose Churches and Gods to serve to uphold their values and hope the Gods find them in favour and bestow whatever X and Y powers and blessings on them.
Unless it's confirmed there's really only one true God then I don't know what the fuck mayne just make some shit up
Wakfu.
>>46627884
I would say instead "Never have the good gods walk openly". Messengers who may or may not be working for the gods (or are actually the gods themselves in disguise) are playing to trope.
>>46627855
Faith being the core of religion is post-protestantism western tenet.
In many cultures around the world to this day (and even in medieval Christianity) what mattered and matters the most is carrying out the proper religious rituals to appease the gods, spirits or anything else, and no one cares how much you love or believe in them so long as you do what's expected.
>>46627855
It's a belief that they actually are a god and not just some powerful wizard. More or less anyway.
The Dwemer refused to believe in gods even though you could easily observe their influence on the world. They then tried to create their own god, using he heart of one of the deities they didn't believe in.
>>46627855
You can still hope that he doesn't randomly decide to fuck you over.
>>46627855
Same way it's always been done. Faith that your god will pull the strings behind the scene in some obscure fashion to help you come out on top.
You have faith that your fighty god will help you overcome the enemy and their fighty god. You have faith that your farming god will bring rain. You have faith that your protection god will keep illness away.
Just because you know that they exist doesn't mean you can be certain they actually do the things that they claim to. You have faith in their omnipotence (or just regular potence) and that they're actually listening when you ask for help, rather than faith that they exist at all.
>>46627855
Just because a being of immeasurable supernatural power exists doesn't mean that it's a God. Just because it's a God doesn't mean it cares about you. Just because it cares about you doesn't mean it'll take any part in your life. And just because it takes part in your life doesn't mean it's worthy of veneration. All of these are things a cleric has to take on faith.
>>46628125
It's not that they didn't believe in gods, but that they didn't consider them worth worshipping. That, and the reality is a lie.
They wanted to un-create themselves up the divinity gradient until they reached the Godhead.
>>46627855
Look up how the Franks became Christian.
>>46628281
>tips large brass cog
>>46627855
You can have faith in something that you know to exist. An awful lot of people have faith in the government, which definitely exists.
Why, who knows, but the same thing is true of the various gods that people believe with certainty to exist.
Faith is more than simple belief, it is implicit trust. Someone who believes that Ba'al is real, but who does not see him as worthy of worship or believe that the big guy is looking out for him would not be considered faithful.
>>46627855
The same way it worked when ages ago people considered the existence of gods a fact.
People don't worship the gods on a whim, they treat them as immortal and all-powerful beings beyond their comprehension, and must make sacrifices to attract their attention, gain their favor, or appease them so that they look favourably at you and your endeavour
>>46627855
You simply choose which gods, if any, are worth your veneration. Also there's always a bit of uncertainty leftover: it's like, sure, god of thieves exists and empowers his clerics, that's a fact. But when you, a non-cleric rogue, pray to him before picking a lock, does it do anything for you?
Also colouring totally ruins your pic.
>>46628281
Don't believe in yourself. Believe in me. Believe in me who believes in you.
>>46627884
>not confirming the existence of gods in your mythic fantasy
>the hero isn't actually sure where he gets his ultimate artifact weapon from, it just showed up one day
>not having the local Eris-expy stir up trouble
>>46628412
Kamina please go.
>>46628482
Why does the hero have to have a mythic artefact weapon?
Why did the weapon just show up instead of the hero going on an epic quest to obtain it?
Why does the Eris-expy have to be a god instead of some minor demon, sorceress, or even just a clever human?
>>46628482
In the sagas OdIn would just dress as Gandalf and give people magical swords, he never told them who he was.
>>46628358
Or so they don't bother you at all.
A lot of the old gods were complete dicks and the best you could hope for is that they don't come around to fuck your life up.
>>46627855
I get that you religionfags have a lot of drama going with your imaginary friends. But do you get that spamming your fetish on unrelated boards is really obnoxious?
Shoo! Shoo!
>>46627959
This and
>>46628054
this.
For a long time, and in many cultures, the existence of gods/spirits was not something up for debate and yet we still see varying levels of "devotion" in that different people were willing to spend different amounts of their time on worship.
>>46628645
>>46627855
The afterlife isn't confirmed and magic powers work just fine for the faithless. Religious debate hinges largely on whether the gods are being honest about what they offer mortals, if they're genuinely "divine" or just powerful magical creatures, and whether or not 'duvine' is a meaningful term in the first place.
>>46627855
Like in the real world.
Unless the Gods actually appear before their followers, you still have people basically being left to believe their patron deity is looking out for them in exchange for worship.
>>46627959
GRUUMSH BUILD WALL AND MAKE ELVES PAY FOR IT
There's one game I play where the existence of God and the heavenly host are confirmed, there are physical gates to heaven that are common knowledge. Same with demons, though demon worship is looked down upon.
Faith works more like, "I believe the object of my worship is willing to intercede i, the world on my behalf." Even an average person with strong enough faith can call upon the heavens to enact a miracle of some kind.
Instead of Clerics and Paladins, you have Holy Chosen, Petitioners, and Devotees. Holy Chosen can wield raw holy power, Petitioners can essentially summon angels and other celestial entities, and Devotees cast magic channelled from their holy benefactors. Also, holy chosen and petitioners are distinctly supernatural, rather than magical in nature.
>>46628344
/thread
Faith has another meaning, loyalty. Faithful friends, a faithful dog, etc. Your best friend knows you exist (to a reasonable degree, inb4 Matrix), keeping faith with you is about unwavering support. Gods want the same sort of thing.
>>46627855
Look at Discworld, more specifically Small Gods. It'll answer your questions.
>>46627855
Only gods that don't exist demand "faith" in the modern sense, i.e. belief in the absence of evidence.
Gods in fantasy worlds demand "faith" in its original sense—fidelity. Loyalty. Clerics and paladins don't "believe in" of their gods—they FOLLOW them.
>>46628645
That was quite the argument, sir.
>>46627855
The same way it works in real life
>>46627855
Faith is a Christian concept that has no real bearing on any other religion.
It doesn't matter how "faithful" you are to Pelor. You know he's real. It's how you conduct yourself: worship and obeying his divine law.
When god is clearly real, man is saved by works alone.
>>46627855
while the existence of gods is confirmed (even the existence of specific gods) the true nature of those gods is almost certainly a mystery to most.
Clerics must reinforce and guide their subjects through the rituals and have a greater insight in how to please and gain the favor of those gods.
Look to Warhammer 40K for further Elaboration (the Imperial Cult and so on).
>>46627855
As an analogue to real world faith, dnd faith would be believing that the gods care and work to protect you, or just that they'll help you if you want them to. More commonly dnd faith refers to worship, which is essentially selling your soul in a good way.
>>46627855
Gods in fantasy settings are like political parties in the real world. Some are small and inoffensive, others are downright cancerous, and everyone thinks theirs is the best one.
>>46627855
It doesn't and people don't extol faith as a virtue.
If anyone says "have faith" in that context they mean "have faith that the gods will protect/aid you" not "have faith that the gods exist."
It's a word that can be used in any number of contexts so pretending that religious faith can only ever mean one thing is silly.
>>46627855
It shouldn't. Gods should always remain a mystery and shouldn't be absolutely confirmed. If they are absolutely confirmed then one couldn't have faith in them any longer, as faith by definition is belief without substantial evidence. Those with faith trust their particular god exists, even if they can't show it.
>>46629464
>orcs
>building a wall
>not raiding
Sorry friend, you have the situation reversed. Corellon is all about that wall to protect his elf master race.
>>46627855
People can believe or not believe strongly in whatever that god stands for and is often the living embodiment of. Fucking duh.
>>46630648
>>46630601
Those two got it right
>>46627855
>How does faith work in a setting where the existence of ones God is a confirmed fact?
How doesn't it work?
Much like in the ages before the enlightenment the existence of gods was never in question, but Faith comes from having the faith to believe that your god would provide.
As in "I have faith that these offerings of burnt offal will please Poseidon and I have faith that he will provide calm seas in exchange."
>>46630758
>as faith by definition is belief without substantial evidence
No it's not.
>>46630852
faith
(feJθ)
n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
not even that guy, but please, don't confuse belief with faith or religion
religion is an institution
faith is belief without or regardless of evidence
belief is acceptance of a statement, which may or may not be supported by facts
>>46627855
>How does faith work in a setting where the existence of ones God is a confirmed fact?
I think it's a Roman/Taoist do ut des relationship?
Because you KNOW God(s are/)is there, you know you can skip the faith part for pure rationality and firm adherence to belief. It's only logical from that point on to follow what your god says for boons lest ye receive the very real possibility divine punishment.
So you do stuff for your god because your god will directly bend reality in some manner to give you divine favor/boons, and/or you fear their anger and similarly divine curses/pains.
It still technically works out the same way as IRL faith; it's just that whether or not it's causative or even real that's the question; with a confirmed divine, that's no longer necessary to question so the liminal rituals still stay the same.
>>46630885
Nice, you picked a single definition of a word that can mean any number of things.
>6.
>the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.:
>Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
So, no, you can have faith in gods that are absolutely confirmed.
