>>46607047
I'm currently working on converting Warcraft material into the DnD 4th edition system.

I'm a bit torn on something though, I'm not sure whether I should keep the standard 4th edition racial powers of races that exist in both DnD and Warcraft, or if I should adapt the WoW racial powers the various races get into racial encounter powers

>>46607194
do the latter

>>46607209
Ok

Still going to be lazy about it though, dwarves are just getting the goliath racial power instead of the standard dwarf racial power

>Blizzard reads previous thread
>One of them says "guys we fucked up"
>They change the Horsemen lineup
>The fourth horseman is Garithos

>>46607577
>blizzard
>reading our threads
gib nost back pls blizzard
failing that ban all the players who have the term 'futa' in their RP window. No more horse hung dickgirls.

>>46607606
>No more horse hung dickgirls.
You think you don't want it, but you do.
t. Blizzard

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>>46607047

So, yeah, sure, I got a Lore Question:

What the fuck happened to the Netherwing Dragonflight?

For that matter what happened to the independent Black Dragonflight -FREE OF THEIR FATHERS CORRUPTION- within outland?

What the fuck is going on in outland? Is outland basically entirely retconned because outland is VERY INTERESTING and I want to go back there- not get this "monkey paw wish" like we had with fucking warlords of draenor.

Seriously, there's so many loose ends in outland: What the fuck is the deal with MURMUR? THE ELEMENTAL LORD OF SOUND, EXCUSE ME?!?

>>46607723
man, It feels good to be present for the birth of a dank meme.
>>46607728
Basically Outland has died down and the draenei were planning on returning to outland at the start of cataclysm.
Hopefully the netherwing dragonflight would occupy the apex predator role in the postwar outland.
Basically it is at peace and healing.

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>>46607739
No, ANON you don't underSTAND like,

There was a unique/independent faction of people known as the WyrmCult that were trying to carve out a life in the Blade's Edge Mountain and they were breeding Black Whelps.

And they had Humans, Broken, Draenei and Orcs and they were just living in relative peace, but then the fucking Cenarian circle comes in and just sends mercinaries to fucking KILL them because they're being "difficult".

So much of the most interesting Warcraft shit just dies off as just a pathetic footnote.

Outland is a rich fleshed out land and they're WASTING IT.
WASTING IT ANON!!!

A Troll introduced MURLOCS into fucking Zangarmarsh; what the hell is that going to do to their environment in 12 years?!?

Do night elves and high elves canonically speak different languages, or is that just a mechanic for the sake of the MMO?

>>46607841
nearly 10k years of seperation would change languages. Kael seemed to speak Darnassian well enough though.

>>46607800
They were probably charmed into working for the dragons.

>>46607800
I thought the Naga introduced murlocs into Zangarmarsh long before the trolls got there

>>46607800
>what the hell is that going to do to their environment in 12 years?!?
Well..do they eat moss? Do trolls like to lick stuff? Wiki says
>Licking a murloc will grant you visions, usually of you being mauled by an angry murloc

>>46607841
>Do night elves and high elves canonically speak different languages, or is that just a mechanic for the sake of the MMO?

The language system in Wow is entirely an mmo/game mechanic.

Almost every race in world of warcraft can speak common and other races knowing the languages of their neighbors isn't uncommon at all. Almost all of the warcraft languages are extremely well documented and versed by both sides with a few exceptions being obscure languages such as Tauren or Goblin.

The Difference between Night Elf and High Elf language is more like a variety of dialect than an actual different language.

>>46607728
They are all still chilling in Outland

>>46607886
Ok, I assume gutterspeak doesn't even exist then, or if it does, it's more of a thieves cant than a full language

>>46607931
exactly

>>46607967
actually, gutterspeak was added late in beta because forsaken and alliance spent time shittalking each other.

>>46608118

As it should be!

I never understood why blizzard never made language a part of the game.
The more you grind rep with a faction, the more you can understand their language.

>>46608219
it wouldn't be streamlined enough for their casual audience anon

With each patch the game is becoming less of an RPG and more of a Facebook MMO

>>46608219

Mostly because the Faction System is a joke. It barely does anything and has never been used to the extent it could have been.

I'd have loved the ability for players to list a faction they were popular enough with as 'Their faction' for the purpose of world PvP. So a troll and night elf could both team up if they were both flagged as allied factions.

Give every faction a few it fights and have helping a faction reduce your popularity with it's enemies.

The majority of major dungeons/raids are against people that Everyone can agree it's best to beat up anyway.

>>46608269
Original wow was somewhat more casual but it was still Azeroth simulator instead of Azerothland diznee rides.

>>46608219
>I never understood why blizzard never made language a part of the game.
>The more you grind rep with a faction, the more you can understand their language.

Honestly if they put in Languages I'd think it'd be more appropriate to handle it as a secondary profession called linguistic or something and be treated entirely for roleplaying purposes and so forth.

>>46608219
It was one of the things vanilla WoW took straight from the EQ formula, along with the meaningless faction system (since you're forced to be alliance or horde no matter what).

>>46608340
so EQ had different languages?
Also the faction system was kinda charming.

>>46608318
I guess.The only times players learn a new language is during the draenei starting experience and its completely fluff

If everyone can speak common, would orcish still be the lingua franca of the Horde?

>>46608402
probably not, the funniest thing is the blood elves forgot how to speak common.
Jej

>>46608374
Yes, and you could learn any of them by hearing them spoken enough. I don't think they served any purpose except for RP stuff, though.

>>46608402

Much less likely.

A lot of younger orcs would have grown up with common as the main language they heard in the internment camps.

Between that and the demon time having them eject whole parts of their culture, the orcs are likely getting pretty close to Stolen Generation levels of disconnect from their original culture.

>>46608421
huh, that was one of those little things right?
Maybe let blue and red learn each other's languages by repping with the factions. Then talk to true neutral organizations to buy books that slowly level up your language skills on the other factions' language.

>>46608411
All the educated and wealthy belvs speak common, it's just that adventurers are of pleb descent.

>>46607901
Except the ones who offered to carry murderhobos to the end of the world(s)
And maybe dragonmaws dragged a few of the captured ones to wherever.

>>46608428
>Between that and the demon time having them eject whole parts of their culture, the orcs are likely getting pretty close to Stolen Generation levels of disconnect from their original culture.
I believe that this is why the orcs are still into hating the Alliance

By now all the orcs that fought in the first and second war are tired, grizzled veterans wishing for peace, meanwhile all the kids born on Draenor or the internment camps wants to avenge their fathers

>>46607728
I remember that cool black dragon guy in Nagrand who gave you quests to kill gronn and shit, is he still chilling there? does wrathion know about him?

What would happen if you raised a demon hunter as a DK?

>>46608677
>>46608677
I really want Sabellion to slap Wrathion's shit

>>46608667
This is all Thrall's fault
Instead of teaching the new generation the mistake of their forefathers ( fails like Grom or Kargath)
He lift them up like heros to "reestablish their own culture", which apparently involved just killing and pillaging.
So all he got are a whole new group of murder machines with no ethic.
So much for his "Good Horde" crap.

>>46608677
yes, lore wise he is still alive.

No, Wraithion doesn't know any dragons in outland, including Sabellion and the netherwing flight.

>>46608893
Their capital is named after Orgrim Doomhammer, the guy that tried to destroy half a continent with his army

Imagine if Berlin was named Hitlerburg

>>46608893
thrall's senile

>>46608914
there would be a lot of butthurt people who would try to repeat the lavon affair over and over again

>>46607047
>Defias edition

Fittting enough since Vanessa VanCleef is alive and well in Legion and becomes your ally

>>46608956
Vanessa is cute

>>46608914
night elves, high elves, and humans all invaded and conquered other races to create an empire, yet no one cries about that. What made Orgrim a hero and someone to admire is that he put the destiny of orcs back in the hands of orcs and purged the Legion influence from their government.

>>46608914
It's almost like he WANTED to promote kiling and pillaging in Orcs.
So he can go around parading them being oppressed good guy while his subordinates kill and pillage for their benefits.

I am having dejavu from this.

>>46608931
He is only in his 30s
Being senile at this age is ridiculous.

>>46608988

It seems the trick to getting brought back is not to wear pants considering her, Whitemane and Valeera Sanguinar all return for it

>>46609002
Many emperor fought wars to expand their holding and power. Why are we only talking down at hitler?

Neither night elves, high elves or humans ever commited genocide.
Orcs did.
That's the fundamental difference between them.

>>46609035
Right, I'm sure there was no genocide involved. They all just asked the trolls to leave their land and let them peacefully leave with adequate food and compensation. Elves and humans are civilized after all, they wouldn't just kill people to steal their land.

>>46609003
>Being senile at this age is ridiculous.
that's what happens when you keep swapping marriages

>>46609035
The elves absolutely commited genocide

Just that, like most examples of genocide, it was never completed

>>46609084
Playing wc3 you realise that NElves were pretty murder happy.

>>46609064
The troll war was detailed in Lore.
The Arathor and High Elves fought against the Amani Empire, the Troll lost and ran into the forests, and that was it.
And BZ explicitly stated NE never commits genocide.

No genocide involved at all.
your move, creep.

>>46609084
on who?
night elves never genocided any race
High elves fought nothing but trolls, which didn't involve genocide.

>>46609165
Ok, fellas, I'll stop you right there.

Let's not do /pol/ in Azeroth style discussion again.

>>46609188
well since WoG pretty much states that high elves just wanted a place to do magic.

>>46609178
Yes it did

Purging a land of it's original inhabitants is tantamount to genocide, especially when the original inhabitants are as stubborn as trolls

>>46609198
WoG?

>>46609214
word of god. And get rid of your name. I am the OP

>>46609165
Wait, so they entered territory that wasn't theirs, killed people in pitched battles, laid seige to capitals, and drove them out?

Wow, almost sounds just like what the orcs did! What you call muh orc genocide is typical medieval warfare. Stop throwing around 20th century terminology where it doesn't apply.

>>46609205
They didn't purge the inhabitant of a land.

Name where did they purged.

>>46609221

I am the original OP. I am the primordial OP.

>>46609228
Quel'Thalas

>>46609225
Which part?
The troll war never involved a siege of capital, the trolls ran for the forest after witnessing the super Flamestrike human's used in the final battle.
Zul'Aman have always stayed in Troll hand.
Also, Troll was always the aggressor in these war.

Except orcs ran into the village and slaughtered every one when elves didn't.

>>46609237
well why weren't you here for the last 3 threads that I made?

>>46609225
>What you call muh orc genocide is typical medieval warfare.

Medieval people didn't wage wars of extinction and build a road out of the bones of the ones they killed.

>>46609256

I am always. All OPs flow from me.

Also, (since this is a WC discussion thread) I was corrupted and now I am back.

>>46609225
The orcs killed anything they came across and wasn't part of team red.
thats not how medieval wars go.

>>46609241
Quel'Thalas had no inhabitant.
It was suppose to be a Hallow ground of runes. They don't live there.
Also, Troll attacked first on their way to quel'thalas apparently.

>>46609275
What?

>>46609267
Carthage?

>>46609281
Wow that's... fucking awful writing

>>46609272
ebin
>>46609284
Doomhammer went on the kill everything that ain't green route.
And now blood elves have their capital as orgrimmar.

>>46609275

They didn't kill Trolls and Goblins.

>>46609298
because they were already part of the horde. I mean the windrunner sisters lose their brother who is a kid and a noble to the orcs when they invade quel'thalas.
>>46609287
and carthage continued to be an important city until far later when it was abandoned in favor of tunis long after the WRE was dead.

>>46609293
Yes, and that's pretty much how medieval warfare went

>>46609267
Name one species the orcs drove to extinction

>>46609291
Dath'Remar Sunstrider refused to attack the local humans for a place to live, and chose a long journey to find another place instead.

For a highborne he is a nice guy.

>>46609310
no it didn't you retard.

>>46609310
yeah right, killing civilian is beneficial in medieval warfare.
You have no basic knowledge about history.

>>46609317
No moral ambiguity in the one place where it fits best

That's so boring, why can't people's ancestors be assholes? They usually are in the real world

>>46609314
They tried, and that's the point.

>>46609314
80% of draenei was killed.

>>46609343
They were assholes, just Trolls are the biggest asshole.

>>46609343
Queen Azshara and trolls were pretty asshole.

Dath'Remar was suppose to be the guy with enough sense to know Azshara is a psycho and switched team instead

>>46609337
>>46609326


I mean, yeah, wars between, say, England and France tended to not involve slaughtering civilians, but I'm pretty sure the Mongolian Hordes were pretty purge-happy when people didn't immediately surrender to them, and the Crusades went to some dark places

>>46607874
nope, it's a troll. He decided that it wouldn't do for Zangarmarsh to be the only swamp in the universe without murlocs, so he sends you to release some into a Lost One village

>>46609349
Ok, so we aren't talking about Doomhammer, good to know, I was getting rather confused there

>>46609381
yes, and they were the exceptions. The mongols did that so that other cities would surrender without a fight, not because it was their right. A purely pragmatic move. >>46609349
can someone point me to where the 80% number comes from?

>>46609035
>Neither night elves, high elves or humans ever commited genocide.
WE

>>46609381
Mongolian's purge is designed to strike fear in their opponents instead of genocide the race.
Killing a city to force the rest into submission

And yeah crusaders are really, really evil.

>>46609337
I don't understand, you think civilian mass killing didn't happen medieval times? You got some balls to look down on others for their ignorance of history.

>>46609414
>And yeah crusaders are really, really evil.
inb4 the polacks come in and explain how they were actually resisting the great mooselimb aggression that was threatening europa

>>46609391
he asked Orcs, not doomhammer.
Doomhammer tried but failed thanks to Gul'dan.
You can see him genocide humans in WC2 Horde victory ending.

>>46609406
The Burning Crusade Townhall/Draenei that's used to be on WoW offical site before BZ redo it.

>>46609425
No I think civlian mass killing is stupid and not something you aim for in a medieval times, nor was genocide the goal in most of the war to begin with.

Good job trying to twist my word.

>>46609445
>The Burning Crusade Townhall/Draenei that's used to be on WoW offical site before BZ redo it.
I see. thanks.
Can't wait for blizzard to retcon that.

>>46609432
t. Caliph Scorpidsting

>>46609459
It's your views that are twisted, not your words. The Legion wanted genocide, Orgrim just wanted territory and to end the war on the orcs terms without a chance for the humans to retaliate in any force. He didn't start the war, but he knew humans would return to take stormwind if he just twiddle his thumbs. Taking a city and enslaving/genociding the inhabitants was typical in medieval times. There was a rule of thumb that victors can do whatever they want to the people for three days after taking a city that doesn't surrender.

Notice how Orgrim didn't "genocide" Alterac after it offered no resistance to him.

>>46609554
were they ever explained?
bandits cosplaying as arabs is funny

>>46609556
You mean except he did commit genocide in Orc ending and never tried to coexist. He did start the 2nd war, stop lying out of your ass.

He was in a rush to attack the alliance force, he didn't had the time to genocide alterac.

>>46609432
But they were.
Why do you think they were any worse than what they were fighting?

>>46609620
You are Orgrim. You stage a coup and take power back from the shadow council and demonic influence. You are in a fierce war with humans on a foreign world that already fully under way.

What course do you take?

>m-maybe they'll let us peacefully coexist

>>46609556
No, the legion just wanted the sweet arcane goodness of the well or the destruction of the world soul.
>there was a rule of thumb
and conquerors garrisoned the city and cracked down on their own soliders chimping out because no one has the stomach for genocide. The action-squads of the nazis were filled to the gill with propaganda and had problems executing civilians.

>>46609653
because at the time of the first crusade the ER emperor asked for well trained mercenaries he needed to defeat the turks not the arabs. The ERE and the rulers of Jerusalem were nominally allies. The crusade fucked off and did it's own thing.

>>46609661
The first war ended when stormwind fall
It took another 6 years before 2nd war starts.
Which began with doomhammer making a massive offensive against the humans.
stop lying out of your ass, seriously.

And I would at least try to make a diplomacy attempt with the humans, which he never did.
Orcs are murder machines with no ethic, simple as that.

So what this whole argument boils down to is one thing

Is Orgrim Doomhammer more like Genghis Khan or Hitler?

I'd say he's more like Genghis Khan, with a dash of Richard the Lionheart thrown in for good measure

>>46609661
remember that Doomhammer gladly used the ogre-magis and death knights that Gul'dan created for him

>>46609700
He was a good friend

>>46609700
> a fail that can't keep in his own subordinates from fight
> failed and got caught as a trophy
> lived most of his old life in seclution
> like Genghis Khan

>>46609700
Doomhammer wasn't anything good.
He is a failed brutal conqueror.

>>46609736
Well he didn't come up with death camps for gnomes and he didn't kill himself in a cave either.

>>46609736
That's pretty much a backward version of Genghis Khan's life

>>46609736
>>46609742
Well if we're looking at what happened after he lost, that becomes far more difficult to find an apt comparison. Not many conquerers made enough progress to be known as a vicious conquerer and then got caught and held prisoner instead of being caught and executed or dying on the battlefield

>>46609752
well at least they are both fails who attemped genocide, and have a mass amount of undisciplined subordinates.

>>46609698
Friend, literally everything I'm saying is backed up by Tides of Darkness. I'm sorry if you only want to view Orgrim from the perspective of his victims, but there's a lot more to him.

>>46609848
what does Tides of Darkness says about him accepting Gul'dan's death knights?

>>46609884
Says it wasn't his idea and found it disgusting but it offered a chance for the shadow council to redeem themselves and he needed magic to counter magic. Same reason warlocks are accepted by the horde now but don't allow them to rule.

>>46609940
>it offered a chance for the shadow council to redeem themselves and he needed magic to counter magic
I'm not surprised he eventually got cucked by Gul'dan and lost the war because of him...

>>46609848
friends, everything I said is backed up by Lore too.
Just yours is your exaggeration while I am just stating facts.

Nothing in Tides of Darkness says he want peace. instead we have alternate realities where he did commit genocide on human race.

>>46609972
>there is an alternate reality where theramore is an orc settlement and it got bombed anyway

>>46609205
They moved into the area around old ruins the trolls considered sacred but did not actually inhabit.

Then the Trolls attacked them for it.

>>46609972
It did say he wanted peace, but he thought he could only achieve lasting peace through war. Naivete was one of his major flaws.

File: 300px-Doomhammer_Presents_the_Head_of_Blackhand[1].jpg (41 KB, 300x358) Image search: [Google]

41 KB, 300x358

>>46610079
how did we went from pic related to
> Naivete was one of his major flaws

come on blizzard

>>46610079
so his definition of peace is kill anything that is not green.
so peaceful.

>>46610180
>I know you all think this hammer looks stupid, with its spikes and bayonet-- I'm looking at you, Grom, you think Warsong laugh quietly? You don't. Well here's the head of the last motherfucker who thought it looked stupid, so step off. I'm the goddamn Warchief now.

>>46610190
DEUS VULT

>>46610180
I don't think whoever was in charge of fluff back then was seeing the orcs as a sapient civilization that was "merely" warped by the demons. They were a green mass humans were supposed to push off their lands and send them to hell where they belong.

However at this juncture they are obviously considered an actual people, if with rather brutal culture, and treating them like unthinking force of evil despite author initiated change of narrative is just autism or a special kind of nostalgia.

>>46610222
Warsong actually didn't leave draenor during the Orc invasion and Grom never met ogrim during his reign.

>>46610246
Nope, they are treated as unthinking force of evil because that's how they act through out the story: as unthinking force of evil.

The author's attempt on chaging the narrative simply failed on its face due to how bad the writers for these things are.

>>46610266
And I'm sure no one actually teased Orgrimm about how goofy his weapon looked. It's a joke, anon.

>>46610246
>or a special kind of nostalgia
my first PC game was Warcraft 2, so take a guess

>>46610310
I know, i am just pointing out a lore that some people usually forgets when they write story for warcraft.

>>46607886
I would assume, given the considerable time from the separation of kaldorei and quel'dorei (especially since the high elves aren't immortal, merely long-lived, so for them several generations have passed since the exile of the quel'dorei), that there would have been notable differences in their laguages. Like, the difference between Spanish and Italian, or Swedish and Norwegian. They're similar enough that if you speak one you can understand the other one to some degree, but still different enough to be considered separate languages.

>>46610277
>failed on its face
actually it didn't fail. Just because you're obsessed with your image of demonic animal-tier orc doesn't mean that they aren't widely accepted the way the present day developers intend them.

>>46610377
He has a point that Kosak is obsessed with that image of orcs as well.

>>46610463
I'm not convinced that Kosak actually wants orcs to be seen as evil. Maybe as strong and triumphant?
Even so, interaction with orc NPCs makes it clear that at very least individually they are nowhere near bloodthirsty beasts they may have used to be.

>>46610377
I have given numerous in game reference, without even invoking WoD where they all went on being murder psychos without any demonic influence.

Just because the developer intent something doesn't mean they succeeded to bring something.
It you who is being delusional and buys any crap people tells you without reading the actual thing.

>>46610573
Oh good, we are actually secretly in agreement

The writers are dumbasses.

The only point of contention is whether the shitty writing should be adhered to or ignored

>>46610573
I don't think you've actually read any quest text in the game at all.

>>46608893
He also left the Horde with a warmongering idiot who didn't even want the job when the going got too rough for him.

Thrall a shit.

>>46607194
Here

For those of you who know 4e, what ability score bonuses do you think Warcraft orcs should have?

>>46610751
Shamans make terrible warchiefs because they're too soft. Warriors make terrible warchiefs because they're too addicted to war. What we need is a hunter warchief like Rexxar.

>>46610892
How did he get to Kalimdor anyway? Did his beastmaster skills allow him to call dolphins to cross the sea or something

>>46610994
same way Cho'gall did
it just works

>>46611016
Hi Todd. Guess all your money goes to WoW, huh?

>>46610994
The Ogres were actually settling southern Kalimdor before the Horde even showed up since the goblins built a ton of boats for them.

>>46610848
+4 str, +2 con, -2 int and wis.

>>46610892
>Warriors make terrible warchiefs because they're too addicted to war.

That doesn't make them a bad at being warchief. War is good for the Horde. If there is no war then there should not be a Horde.

>>46611083
Well, that explains it. Though now the mental image of Rexxar riding dolphins still remains in my mind

>>46611189
Go the fuck to bed Kosak.

>>46609775

Napoleon

>>46610848

+2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 CHA?

>>46611090
>>46611313
4e, not pathfinder

>>46611222
Not Kosak, just spreading truth.
The Horde is an unnatural state for the Orcs, created to facilitate war. For the Orcs to know peace they need to be split into smaller communal units like clans.

Just look at the terminology.
"Horde", "Warchief", "Warlord", "Overlord"
The Horde is not an organisation of peace.

>>46610639
so that's the best you got ? really?
its getting really old at this point.

>>46610751
a warmongering idiot who have a huge support from the Orcs.

Its doomed at this point, Thrall is just a another fail in the Orc's fail leader train.

>>46611365

+2 CON and your choice of +2 STR or +2 WIS probably works.

It's weird that Kosak apparently loves the Horde so much, but the most notable thing he's done is turn the orcs and forsaken into negative sterotypes of themselves

>>46610751
>who didn't even want the job when the going got too rough for him.
he never wanted the job at all, but Thrall forced him into it, left him with a bunch of advisers who refused to help him, and then fucked off

>>46611448
he spilled mom's spaghetti, that's why
he needs to calm down; relax, have a seat, drink some tea, take a shit

>>46611437
That's what I was thinking, but I've already got dwarves and tauren with strength, constitution and wisdom as their bonus stats

>>46611369
That's what you'd think if you looked at it if you knew nothing about how it came to be.
But as it is we know how the guy who organized it thought about it, and how he dealt with the Tauren, and how he was unhappy with Grom's eagerness to pick fights (while being impotent to do anything about it).

The question is, did Thrall merely idolize concept of Horde as a political entity that would encompass all the orcs, and just took it over from past hordes without giving any thought to connotations of the terms?
Or was he using the language to trick the orcs into following him without immediately rejected idea of a peaceful orcish nation as something for pansy pinkskins, hoping that in time they'd grow to appreciate the deal and the language will just become a relic?

Given his poor choice of successor, I'm inclined to think he had good intentions but poor judgement, rather than him being a social engineer whose gambit didn't pay off.

>>46611448
Rabid fanboys tend to turn everything to shit.
In his mind, the Orcs were greatest when they were STRONK AND BRUTAL in WC2 and Sylvannas is the coolest, most icecoldest, darkest superbitch there is.
The fact that this makes them utterly unlikeable is lost on him.

>>46611448
He loves the Horde in WC1 and 2
so that's what he turns them back into.

Writers like that have the Edgy mcedgy syndrome and prefer to write things like this.

>>46611386
It's true though. You're either wilfully ignoring everything that doesn't fit your narrative, or you're just ignorant.
There's an entire community of orcs right in shadowmoon valley that rejected their warlocks and is on good terms with the draenei, for instance.

>>46611580

Its not a problem. I liked the old horde more too. The problem is that they both want to have their cake and eat it too so we get this holier than thou, horde constantly attacking and killing alliance civilians since vanilla and being bitchy about it when someone tries to call them on their shit.

>>46611667

Well we did get raid on Orgrimmar at end of MoP, and there was something similar in Undercity after that fiasco with Wrathgate.

It's still both funny and sad when horde players whine about Tyrande being rude to them.

>>46611552
Yes, I know that Thrall is a faggot trying to use pre existing power structures for his own ends, that doesn't change what the Horde is.

>>46611537
Give Dwarves Con and Wis, then.

>>46611656
No, i am accusing you that all you do is throwing claims around without facts to back them up.
Its the not first time it happens in these threads and its getting really old.

People like you are cancer to the thread.

>>46611710

>Well we did get raid on Orgrimmar at end of MoP

Which was the fucking worst and the alliance just left before adressing any of their numerous grievances. Also, they didnt even get to try and execute anyone, even garrosh escaped.

>>46611667
While trying to please both crowds, they have successfully pleased neither

Personally I want the Horde and Alliance to be just as good and bad as each other, grey vs grey is much more interesting than black vs white in a large scale conflict like this

>>46611656
an entire community of "outcast" in shadowmoon valley.
Means they are not accepted by the general society of Orcs.

some Night elves turn into satyr willingly, some of them joins twilight hammer. but they too are outcast of the NEs, they do not represent what the NE society in large is, same goes for those under Rulkan.

>>46611759
I just proved you with a fact which you ignored and went on to insult me.

It's actually you who is cancer because you care more about preserving your face than being honest about the subject.

>>46611800
The large scale conflict is the root of the problem, and has always been stupid. Gas the Faction system, design war now.

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>>46608956
>>46608988
>>46609014
>You won't get the pleasure of watching me beg. Do your worst, Alliance dog.

>>46611667
>The problem is that they both want to have their cake and eat it too so we get this holier than thou, horde

That's only gay Thrall Go'el fans.

>>46611820
And I just made the counter point to your "fact" above you.

Its you who is being a cancer because you just ignores everything that's against you and try to talk your way to your advantage while never proving anything.

>>46611843
No one likes Go'el, no one.

>>46611816
The mere existence of those outcasts tears your theory of inherently evil orcs to shreds, and orcs in frostfire ridge are by and large not any worse than them.

At any rate, go ahead and do some more mental backflips. You're merely making an ass out of yourself.

>>46611800

Would have been so easy to write it well.

>alliance guards patrolling orgrimmar
>some of them are vengeful snide assholes, some of them are shown as jsut normal guys doing their job and showing their warrior honor to orcs
>faction of MUH OLD HORDE MUH GLORY revanchists
>faction of shamans urging the horde to stop warring for conquest, it failed for the third time in a row, trying to return them into trives and clans instead of a single horde
>remove that horde insignia from the map, jesus fuck, what blizzard was thinking when they gutted Azshara like that

>>46611860
>Its you who is being a cancer because you just ignores everything that's against you and try to talk your way to your advantage while never proving anything.
One of these days you should spend a few moments on quiet introspection.

>>46611898
So you are saying a evil person cannot be taught good and only a good being can be taught to be evil?
Really?
Thrall is a perfect example of such so your "tears my theory" crap don't work

You meanaside from making you showing how big a orc fanboy and a loser you are?
I am pretty happy about that really.

>>46611921
Just rewrite the entire thing from late WotLK onwards

Hell, rewrite some of BC too, Aggra and Garrosh desperately need to not exist at all, and the new draenei would probably be better if they didn't exist either

>>46611929
One of these days you should spend a few moments to actually read warcraft lore.

>>46611775
They demanded Garrosh be put on trial to formally answer for his crimes. I think that's where Garrosh said he had no regrets about what he did and, given the opportunity, would gladly do it all again.

>>46611369
I suppose you have a point, but the Orcs were more often engaged in short internal wars during the Clan era. The Horde was actually the first time they put that aside and was useful for keeping them from descending into internal conflicts.


In Thrall's case "Warchief" was supposed to be more of a cautionary position of "Chief in case a War breaks out"

And just because the Horde was made to be good at war doesn't mean that War is good FOR the Horde.

>>46611965

>and the new draenei would probably be better if they didn't exist either

Only autists whine about them. Seriously, a WHOLE line of the WC3 manual got retconned and a new and interesting race added yet everyone is whining about that retcon instead of the billion more important ones from the same expansion pack.

>Hell, rewrite some of BC too, Aggra and Garrosh desperately need to not exist at all

Well no shit, at this point it would be easier to reboot the whole thing and cut out all that crap. It still annoys me why Saurfang didnt become warchief. He was literally PERFECT for the post. Beloved by orcs in lore, beloved by players, true orcish badass veteran warrior, actually repentant for his deeds in the second war, capable battlefield commander.

>>46612023
No that's proposed by Taran Zhu.

Alliance in fact lost the claim for azshara in return for.. well nothing at the end of SoO.

>>46612023

I'm trying to forget that book exists, thank you very much.

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>>46611965
Garrosh could have been a pretty good character if he'd been handled better. Aggra could have been at least okay, but her problems are worse than poor writing, pic related.

>>46612052
>not only did Taran Zhu ruin the fun of Mists, he also caused WoD
fuck that stupid panda

>>46611965
Wasn't there a screenshot of posts from the official forums that said Thrall/Jaina is a better ship than Thrall/Aggra because Aggra became the most insidious vector for Thrall's character assassination?

>>46612034
Varok was in a depression and wanted to stay out of politic at that point.
His son just died, man.

And i don't recall he being repentant about his actions in the first and second war.

Also Garrosh was way more popular among the young orcs as the "hero fo Northend" and a warmonger.

>>46612088
Look no further, anon: >>46612075

>>46612075
>Garrosh could have been a pretty good character

Garrosh is a good character.

>>46612101
It's been mentioned a few times that if Garrosh had anything going for him, it was his uncanny charisma among the orcish youth.

>>46612086
to be honest its not his fault, they couldn't decide who gets to kill garrosh.

I do find funny that pandas claim they suffered the most from garrosh.
instead of you know, the guys who lost 5 towns's population to his reign.

>>46612034
My problem with the draenei is how much of a mary sue race they are

They are better than pretty much every other playable race at the one thing that race is best at. Older than trolls, longer lived than night elves, more holy than humans, higher technology than gnomes, more spiritual than tauren, better magic than blood elves. The only races that escape being overshadowed by them are orcs and dwarves.

I'm glad they've been swept so quietly under the rug and ignored for the most part, because they are infuriatingly superior when they're around

>>46612124

URRRRGG ME ORC

*polite applause*

ME SMASH U HARD

*thunderous applause*

WE WUZ WARCHIEF'S N ZUG

*chanting and hollering*


Yeah, orcish charisma.

>>46612124
See? Orgrim isn't Hitler

Garrosh is Hitler

>>46612151

>mary sue

Back in my day trolling meant something.

>>46612151
Their problems are that they are relatively few in number, they've been on the run from the Burning Legion for literally millenia, and they're the victim of genocide. Crashlanding on Azeroth and linking up with the Alliance is the first time in a long long time that the draenei haven't felt outmanned and outgunned.

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>>46611833

>>46611208

Riding two dolphins like a water ski

>>46612201
Small numbers doesn't really stop them from being annoying

>>46612151
>As he dragged himself out of the rubble, he was horrified to see the Lower City as a dumping ground for the slaughtered draenei... including women and children.
> From the upper ledges such as Aldor Rise, they were being systematically tortured and murdered by the celebrating orcs, who then tossed the corpses down.
> Mary Sue

If anything , Orcs and forsaken are the real mary sue race in Warcraft.

>>46612882
IT WUZ RIGHTFUL CLAY, WE DINDU NUFFIN
DAS RITE ALLIANCE PAY REPARATIONS FOR DEM INTERNMENT CAMPS

>>46612201
>They're rare so they aren't mary sue

>>46612882
>They have a tragic backstory so they aren't mary sue

Aren't those kind of generic mary sue traits?

The only problem I have with the Draenei is that Blizzard only used their pretty cool WC 3 design for the broken ones.

>>46612969
Yeah idiots like you don't even know what Mary sue is.

That event was not just a background, these are stories of actual characters that's shaped their personality.
The "escape from Argus" would qualifies as background.

Draenei is actually an anti-Mary Sue, their setting says they are so perfect but in story they are bombard with terrible fates, having real problems (One slip and boom you are a Man'ari Eredar or Sargerei) and have no real accomplishments that qualifies them as Mary Sues.

Orcs and Forsakens on the other hand
- suffers nothing from their suppose character flaw
- Continuously commits atrocities yet still being accepted by others.
- Takes the spotlight for almost every story.

Orcs and Forsaken are the Mary sues.

>>46613090
You're right, Mary Sue is the wrong term, it suggests poor writing rather than poor initial design.

The problem with Draenei is that they're the best at everything, and that makes them boring, and too powerful to use. It doesn't matter if they're well written or handled, because their initial premise is unworkable.


That's why I suggested removing them, replace them with something less "good at everything." Maybe have it so that pure draenei are entirely extinct and the race consists entirely of broken draenei.

>>46611833
>Do your worst, Alliance dog.
Can I kiss you?

I miss farming up bloodthistle in Eversong and selling it to leveling belfs

>>46613201
>Do your worst
>Kiss

I mean, it sounds like you're a kind of a shitty kisser, anon.

>>46613220
I am a kissless virgin so take a guess

>>46613188
They are as tempted by power as other race, even more since they are Eredar, after all.
you have their entire race's premise wrong to being with.

Thinking that having more use of light just make a race boring is just a sign of being lazy and bad at RPing, or wrtiing.

>>46613313
Maybe

Maybe I'm just pissed off by the entire existance of the Naaru, and turning into hatred for the draenei, who are tied so closely to those lore-ruining piles of shit.

I guess it isn't so much the draenei themselves, but what they did to the lore that makes them so annoying to me. They are a constant reminder that the light has been explained, and is therefore boring now

>>46613313

They have huge blind spots themselves, the Velen short story showcased it really well. They are suffering a racewide case of PTSD of being constant refugees and being too passive and timid despite their obvious ability to do otherwise. It really shines when the Aldor and Scryer characters interact in BC, the blood elves all want to jump into stuff and get shit done while the Aldor are ultra-conservatives, one of them even defects to the legion because he cant stand elves serving the naaru the same capacity as him and ruining his perfect draenei fantasy.

>>46613394
thats some /v/ tier shit
>fucking elves get out of my city REEEEEEEE

>>46613394
The draenei was angry that he have to work those who killed his friends.
And the rage made him easy to covert from legions magic.

>>46609752

But a death camp is the only good place for a gnome.

>>46613762
>le gnomes are bad
fuck off
gnomes>>>>>>>>>>>>gobbos>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blood elves

>>46613012
Can't make fappable waifus with the Broken Ones

>>46613824
t. Gelman Cogwhistle

>>46613917
butthurt horde player getting ganked by rogue detected.

>>46610848
Since no one else seems to know how 4e ability scores work, here's my crack at it-

+2 Strength
+2 Constitution OR Charisma

I know, I know. Orcs and charisma. Except yet they are terrifying, and both Warlord and Thaneblood Barbarian would be an excellent fit for them.

>>46614614
I can see it. Thrall and Garrosh both have to be pretty charismatic to become Orc Moses and Hitler, respectively.

>>46613824
Everything I needed to know about gnomes I learned on the half-ogre island.

>>46614727
plus Orgrim talking the goblins into the Horde and somehow convincing Rend and Maim to not stab him in the back when Gul'dan defected

>>46614614
Of course orcs are charismatic. Women literally can't get enough of them.

>>46614614
works for me

>>46614727
>>46614759
>>46614951

This is all true. I suppose I should say that most orcs don't strike me as charismatic. The ones that take the +2 Charisma tend to be major players because the rest of their race is so easily manipulated.

Seriously, if 4e had penalties, -2 Wis for orcs forever, shamans can kiss my ass.

>>46615031
I'd say they should have a penalty to Sense Motive, rather than Wis.

>>46615031
Some Orcs did manage to overcome the Wis penalty. Gul'dan knew to take advantage of the glorious power offered to him when Kil'Jaeden came knocking.

>>46615063
My issue is more that they tend to be incredibly narrow-sighted and thick-headed. However...
>>46615076
Is also correct in that some of them seem to overcome that. On the whole, though, it's whatever.

>>46611455
Woops - that was a fuckup on my part. I meant to say that the going got too rough for Thrall so he just threw the role of warchief at Garrosh and ran off to play with the Earthen Ring.

I could've worded that better.

You're also right though.

>>46615031
Well, when adapting stuff to 4e, elemental shamans are basically sorcerers, and enhancement shamans are basically thaneborn barbarians, both of which are charisma-focused

How much do jungle trolls weigh?

>>46615339
Considering they're canonically pretty huge, probably close to 400 or so pounds.

>>46615063
>>46615076
>>46615110
There's also the issue with different kinds of "Willpower" being linked to Wisdom in d20, Orcs have a Lot of willpower against certain things but very little against other things, and it doesn't seem linked to their overall wisdom.
Plus I don't think d20 can balance around the action-economy ebb-and-flow WoW and even WC3 relied on.

Fuckin Bloodlust is a powerful and important thing, and haste fuckery in general too.

>>46615506
Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not terribly well informed about the lore but doesn't the Light only take a firm belief that what you are doing is for the greater good to work? If that's the case why then are there no Orc priests or Paladins? What are the qualifications for using the light in terms of stats? Would the ability to use the light then be attached to a Wisdom stat or a Charisma?

>>46615661
the Light is raycis and only lets pretty races use it

>>46615661
I thought Cata added orc priests, huh, guess it was just Mages.

I'd say "Casting Stat" would be variable like a free version of that Bastards and Bloodlines feat ported forward to 4e if you insisted on mashing it into d20.

>>46615735
Undead can and do use it, even if it hurts.

Also Tauren, and Dwarves (Though Dorf females were hot Pre-WoD)

>>46615661
The reason there are no orc paladins is because paladins are all members of specific orders and require specific education on how to be a paladin

The reason there are no orc priests is because there actually are orc priests, they just don't matter enough to be playable

>>46615661
The Light is all about conviction more than raw righteousness. It's why the Scarlet Crusade - racist, misguided and exploited as they are - are able to wield it. As classes go, priests are lower on the totem pole than paladins when it comes to the level of devotion required; it's why gnomes can be priests but not paladins.

Orcs don't use the Light because it's not part of their traditions.

>>46615762
Don't you have to believe in the light itself, not only that what you're doing is right?

>>46615773
Ohhh, man, I just imagined an AU where rather being put in internment camps, orcs are recruited by paladin orders, which eventually makes the Orcs very devout to the Light.

>>46615762
>Though Dorf females were hot Pre-WoD
fuck off Anduin

>>46615795
Correct. Of course, tauren are distinct in their beliefs, so their Sunwalkers may pass as priests and paladins, but fluff-wise, it's something very different.

>>46615661
you only need to "believe you can use it" to use it.

Because the Orcs don't believe in holy light.

>>46615661
It's hard to tell what the Light is all about. However, the philosophy behind it is about connections to both the universe and others. In Paletress's sermon, she goes on about how being more connected to others and everything also brings you closer to the Light.

Something about it might favor being used for the sake of others. Willpower is also said to be involved, as well as faith in one's ability to use it.
>>46615773
>The reason there are no orc priests is because there actually are orc priests, they just don't matter enough to be playable
Oh yes, the Shadowmoon seem to have some of those, even on Outland. However, they seem to mostly consist of Void Priests.

>>46615827

The sunwalkers are just weak bulshitting and any comptetet writers first job would be retconning them out of existence.

>>46607047
Defias did nothing wrong.

>>46615827
Sure, gameplay and fluff segregation again.

So theoretically an orc could wield the light, they just don't bother because culturally, why would they ever? Plenty probably recognize the practicality of being able to, but if they tried it would be like some shinto priest pretending to get what Christians are talking about, unless they were raised to worship it or had some kind of extraordinary experience and started believing later in life.

If Blackmoore had been a different person, Thrall might very easily have been able to weild the light, actually, and wouldn't THAT be a weird Horde.