What wentright?
Many things.
What went wrong?
Many things.
Still glad they're about though.
By specifically targeting the people that GW has pissed off by using people who left GW
>>46546572
nothing.
GW shit the bed and directly gave them market share.It's funny because it basically kills the argument that GW had no choice but to can fantasy because it wasn't profitable enough. If another company can succeed with your product you were just shit at developing it and selling it.
>>46546572
It's run by people who actually care about making good games that aren't a mess of codexs and nonsensical rules.
>>46547313
It was always utter bollocks anyway. Warhammer had always sold less than 40K (well certainly since the early nineties).
What changed is their pitiful attempts to "popularise" it consistimg of churning out ever more over elaborate giant kits absolutely no one wanted at all. Now this didn't actually cost them anything as GW own their entire supply chain from tooling to casting, but it's pseudo spending on a spread sheet. If you weren't a massive twat you'd just accept that WFB was not going to ever catch up to 40K and just aim to please it's existing userbase while ensuring it doesn't fall.
Instead that tub of lard decided to piss off every single WFB player for having the temerity to not play the more popular game, seemingly unable to grasp they'd take this badly and sod off elsewhere, or even understand that there -is- an elsewhere now.
So here we are, Warhammer in ruins and an also ran supplier of cheap models now owning the most successful mass fantasy battle game on the market, while GW desperately tries to market a non game, based on a non background at extortionate cost and failing.
Will they do the same to 40K, it would be utterly suicidally insane to, so they no doubt will.
>>46547278
This.
>>46547745
I hope so, then maybe people will pay attention to Warpath.
>>46547278
They also listen to their customer base, and show that they pay attention to the current market i.e. their immediate announcement of models upcoming for Empire of Dust, after the squatting of Tomb Kings. I hope they're as nice as their base undead models are.
What's strange is that they would ignore whatever projects Alessio Cavatore worked on, considering how pivotal his work was for GW.
>>46550473
>their immediate announcement of models upcoming for Empire of Dust, after the squatting of Tomb Kings.
This is the first I've heard of this.
>>46550473
>cavatore
>pivotal work
Les will never get the stink of the v4 chaos codex off of him. His 'pivotal' cheerleading for 'streamlined' rulesets remains a cautionary tale to this day, and almost gave space marine players strokes after they saw what he'd done to chaos with 'loremaster' thorpe when their dex was slated for release next. Calgar heaved a sigh of relief when Jervis 'went another direction' with codex: self-insert.
For the longest time 40k held the monopoly on fantasy tropes in space.
Mantic came along, and while originally to make product that was intended to directly compete with 40k, they took those same fantasy tropes, stuck them in space, and put their own spin on things.
The company has started to grow on me, especially since they are abandoning that shitty restic and going either all metal, plastic, or true resin. They're also doing some of that soft plastic bones stuff, but I really don't mind it. As long as they keep away from restic is all.
>>46552682
Loving the new Steel Warriors.
>>46552682
>>46553022
The new stuff coming out for Deadzone/Warpath is pretty nice.
Hope it's a trend that continues.
is mantic really dethroning the GW monopoly? its about time. now i cant wait until they make a hockey version of blood-bowl (i know there's cross check but dammit im still salty over frozen rampage not getting funded)
>>46553863
As long as GW sells marines, I don't think anyone will dethrone them (unless they're Star Wars,) but Mantic have been able to crave out a niche for themselves.
>>46553863
>is mantic really dethroning the GW monopoly?
I am a mantc fan, and I am not delusional. Nothing is dethroning GW. It is still king. Other companies can only hope to steal some of its share. Especially now that they are actually doing shit to repair its reputation which i think is working.
>>46553863
>is mantic really dethroning the GW monopoly?
No.
Mantic is too slow. GW can work faster.
KoW first "came out" in 2009.
2009. We're just now six years later getting a second edition which is FINALLY "complete" in terms of scope.
And we want them to replace all of specialist games AND the main-line GW offerings?
All at the same time?
See you in the year 21xx
>>46552682
To be fair, I kind of liked the originals too.
They were very 90's GW.
Sculpting zombies and ghouls
Making KoW
little else
>>46554155
>little else
No love for their bulk deals?
>>46554025
>Mantic is too slow
I'm noticing this too. I've never played a miniatures game before, and I've been waiting a while now for Warpath and Deadzone. But if the end result is a better game, then whatever, I guess.
>>46554223
Their prices are pretty good aye, but uh, the thing is I just don't want most of their products. Outside of the undead and some of the chaos dwarves the KoW range is pretty damn weak.
>>46554306
Yeah, their Kings of War line is pretty darn lacking. They've been slowly improving, though. I genuinely think their Warpath lines and bulk deals will be great. Asterians are shaping up to be really cool.
>>46554306
Because they are still in their 'youth' as a company. I mean... Most of their releases are Kickstarted, for fuck's sake. Once they actually get ground in the community and start being able to progress using their sales alone, then there will be more range and more attention to the models.
>>46554365
It's possible I got the old warpath starter box and just....egh. The orcs ended up being converted to use as chaos cultists and I still didn't want to use them because the plastic and mould quality was just awful.
>>46550473
>What's strange is that they would ignore whatever projects Alessio Cavatore worked on, considering how pivotal his work was for GW.
You mean fucking ruined the game hard?
>>46554398
From what I understand, they're actually redoing their entire Maraduer line and the materials have been made better.
Just have to wait and see I guess.
>>46554392
Hahahahahaha
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh wait, you're serious?
Mantic models look shit on purpose senpai. It's called Hand sculpting by lazy sculptors. it's why all their models look like fat lumpen piles of shit or made of twigs.
I prefer
Russian alt
Scibor
Mom
Reaper
Perry bros
Avatars of war
and Gamezone
>>46553708
Yeah, their new stuff is getting a lot better. The Space Skaven look a little too wonky, though. The ones with helmets look so much better than the ones without.
>>46555394
Look much better than the old monkey skaven
>>46555564
Yeah, but the faces are still a bit too monkey Skaven.
I'd like to see what they'd like next to the current Skaven, switching them out with Plague Monk heads might not be a bad idea.
>>46555840
>too monkey
>I better switch them out with monkey era skaven heads
>>46554498
It's on purpose, but not for that reason.
The majority of models in existence are hand-sculpts, and many of the best ones are better than GW regardless. And some of the best sculpts GW has ever put out are hand sculpts. 3D modeling helps mostly with evenness and symmetry, not quality.
Mantic models look... basic, because they're deliberately trying to look as generic as possible. There are several reasons for this, but it's not because their sculptors lack talent.
>>46554155
>Indie sculptor working on his own time with a handful of products
vs
>Half a dozen product lines with perpetual deadlines and no in-house sculptors
Apples and Oranges
You might as well swap out Mantic for GW in that image
>>46557177
Many of their models are genuinely mage knight tier
>>46554306
>>46554155
>>46553953
GW is dying slowly. They have no debts, but falling profits. It'll be years, probably decades, but unless something major changes, they're going down. I don't think anything will change; management is still too up it's arse to consider it might need to.
Hopefully the demise of WHF will push them to release better models quicker. Some undeads are awesome but other armies... ewwww. But I guess they are improving with each new release.
>>46547745
>Warhammer had always sold less than 40K (well certainly since the early nineties)
Got any source? I seem to recall a few months old interview to an exGW big fish saying that 40k overtook Fantasy around 2005.
>>46553953
>>46553943
Guys, you realize GW has actually already been dethroned in some aspects? X-Wing sells more than 40k and AoS combined
>>46563564
xwing is not a hobby miniature wargame. its not a competitor
its like saying gw is dethroned because more people play video games than 40k and aos combined
>>46563925
Technically video games are a competing market. Not direct competition, but still competition.
>>46554445
Yeah the guy that invented Skaven really ruined Warhammer Fantasy...
>>46569653
>invented Skaven
Wut.
>>46569770
I made that up. But Cavatore still did a lot of good things for Warhammer.
>>46552372
He writes kow and he was a pivotal writer in 6th edition fantasy, which is the most well liked edition. I didnt even know he wrote 40k stuff and i considered him a pivotal gw writer. Who cares about his 40k stuff, if i want to play 40k i can play it, kow is the best fantasy analogue in town.
>>46570138
He did, though he did cause a lot of the balance issues during 6th and 7th, but that goes along with the lack of internal consistency for GW's development team. Isolated, his books were consistent, unlike someone like Robin 'I Can't Do Basic Math' Cruddace.
>>46546572
Abandoning their "most affordable miniatures on the market" angle and increasing prices so they can produce better plastic.
Simpler, free high fantasy wargame rules.
Dreadball.
Modular terrain.
As this appears to be "the" Mantic thread at present, I'll leave this here.
Been trying out an airbrush and Flory washes on a Mantic Enforcer.
Opinions on the Centaur models?
Should I play my Wood Elves as Forces of Nature or as Elves?
>>46572934
That looks really good.
We'll have a warpath thread every Wednesday, post it then
>>46573053
The belts and waists don't match up.
And as Elves. KoW Elves have the Dryads and treemen already, plus you can ally in the Forces of Nature stuff.
>>46573053
>Opinions on the Centaur models?
>Should I play my Wood Elves as Forces of Nature or as Elves?
They'd probably play better as Elves I'd have thought. All the Wood Elfy stuff is in the standard Elf list, less perhaps the elaborate, mad stuff Canerco churned out before they sodomised WFB all together.
If you like the Centaurs, you could always have them in an Elf army as an allied unit, they'd be more than appropriate there.
Can I mount my dwarves into BFMechas in Warpath/Deadzone?
also I need someone to shill me Dreadball? I feel intrigued about it.
>>46573452
There are Dwarf Dreadnoughts in DZ/WP.
>>46553943
Honestly more niches is all I ask, break the monopoly enough to force everyone on their toes and keep trying
Giving a shit about players, mostly.
Listening to feedback when developing rules, giving lots of freedom for hobbyists to do whatever they want within really loose restrictions.
>>46555564
>>46555394
They should have made not-rak'ghoul
>>46573529
looks cuet, it only needs a metal beard and I'll pretty much lose it
>>46573788
Just stick some steel wool on.
>>46573788
there's also the dreadball iron ancestor.
I'm getting it to repose the arms and legs so I can make a thor pattern iron ancestor for deadzone.
I think i can make for it a big 2handed hammer that it will hold with both hands. Mite b cool
>>46573702
Did you mean Rakghoul from Star Wars, or the 40k Rak'gol?
Either way, the space Skaven are fine, I just wish the heads were more current Skaven than older Skaven.
>>46573788
It does have a metal beard. Kinda angular though.
>>46573053
>Should I play my Wood Elves as Forces of Nature or as Elves?
It depends on what was in your old WFB army, but my guess would be to run them as elves, with some Forces of Nature allies.
Since there is no KoW thread I'll post this here.
I recently finished making another battle report for Kings of War.
https://youtu.be/19VRSD1WCNo
All they need to do is hire a decent fucking sculptor and the fantasy market is theirs
>>46560421
i dont think so, this new director is probably gonna start cleaning house and turning things around hard.
first prove of this is him lowering the cost of starter boxes and the cost of the boxed games. he seems to understand they will make more money if their models are cheaper.
>>46584043
He isn't, Kirby remains as Chairman and hand selected the new CEO, a long time company yes man. Kirby, cannot control himself from interfering, almost all of GW's mistakes come directly from him.
>>46583568
Thanks for the battle report fishbatbro
Shooters FTW
>>46584938
You're welcome.
I am underwhelmed by shooters in regiments. I'm going to have a closer look at Boomers as well, I suspect the principle will be the same there too: ~50% more points for 100% more damage and better resilience looks good on paper, and 9 breath attacks seems a bit soft for solving problems.
>>46584043
"One discount starter box" is nowhere near enough. They're still doing crazy shit like £100 for three models boxes that's going to drive away anyone sane.
>>46584043
I still haven't seen him do anything to address the issues in 40K or AoS. AoS is supposed to be a living document, so shouldn't he be able to add a points system? The starter deals are still bad when compared to the competition.
>>46587288
Adding a points system with the required balances is a titanic amount of work. No way they'd do that now. It's "better" without a points system, and so will 40K be when it gets it's end times (where "better" means lower production costs).
>>46554155
That's not even a fair comparison. At least look at the Divine Rage take on the Daemon Prince, which is the exact same price. Both minis are mediocre in the end when compared to some of the figures that Mierce and Forgeworld make.
>>46583867
>a decent fucking sculptor
There's maybe fewer than 12, and they're all full time employed by other companies or their own whims.
You can't just shit out veteran artists on demand. Miniatures are a niche market, and you'd be asking 8+ years experience.
You know what happens? They have to hire CAD interns. Anybody can sculpt digital models. Problem is they have no artistic sense and are crapped out by the thousands from schools with the general idea that they'll be producing purely digital assets.
You get pic related.
Perfect for a video game.
Holyshit horrible for miniatures.
The overdetailed with no focus sculpts they've been putting out are another sign of that.
>>46583867
>>46587390
>>46554155
THIS is the other problem. You want X company to have a decent sculptor like Y? Too fucking bad. "Y", be it Perry Brothers or equally experienced peers, keep getting the idea to run an independent production that intentionally isn't an actual game system or game-specific product line.
Could X company actually hire decent sculptors? Yes, if they kidnapped them. Good sculptors aren't just floating around for the greater good of making the top tier sculpts just specifically for your favorite game line.
>Just hire a decent sculptor
>Points to one specific man
You might as well tell NASA to just build a decent fusion reactor already, the Sun clearly proves stable fusion power is possible.
>>46585257
Yeah Boomers are fun. You lose 24" range, but with no Reload! you can engage melee/ranged equally well rather than get locked into one corner for half the game. The ability to be in the fray and block or flank is always nice.
Those fliers are tough on Ogres, all your units are so expensive, you've got little rear guard.
>>46588487
>UNITINU
fuck cant unsee
>>46589689
Would Boomers being able to stay with the frontline be useful for that? Just rotate and shoot after the fliers land?
>>46583867
They could also use a good painter. The models look much worse when they aren't painted well.
>>46552682
>>46553708
>>46553943
I absolutely love Mantic's sci fi figures, the ones shown here, along with their Corporate marines and the Tiger Corps soldiers really look good, and there's a lot of interestingly done alien races that range from being reminiscent of the various Star Trek races over the years (the Tiger Corps aliens for example), all the way to the more Mass Effect kind of "alien" aliens (Teratons and that one Rebs alien that walks with its arms).
Their fantasy stuff is more hit and miss. While I can say that their infantry comes out well, with only a unit or so being at the lower end of mediocre when it comes to design, their larger creatures usually aren't worth it in my opinion.
The Ogres they produce are the exception to this, but generally larger units like the Moloch, Werewolves (the Lykanis is an exception here, too), and Trolls look pretty weird, suffering from problems with proportions of their figures leading to topheavy figures like the Trolls shown above or with overall cohesion like the Molochs and Werewolves;
That said overall I would rate them as a pretty good company. They're trying really hard to compete, and maybe slowing down would help them, but I'm hopeful for their future.
That, and I kinda hope they add more to their background for their games. I like how they took Deadzone and released short stories that gave you a look into the Corporation world, and I think a few small novellas in the KoW setting wouldn't go amiss if they keep the stories tame.
>>46546572
is dreadball worth it?
there is a lgs somewhere on my way to work and they are fucking done with GW and putting everything on 30% off.
also they bought to much dreadball (who knew people dont want more then 3 teams each) so those are 30% of as well.
is it worth it ?
>>46594490
if there are other players, it is
>>46594561
aaaah..... : <
i dont go to this lgs, and mine is not doing it
>>46594678
> :<
The answer is always to lurk more
>>46594490
Yup it's great, I'd stick to exhibition games as it is a bit let down by it's league rules, but you can get all the options in one off games anyway.
Bear in mind it's the game most effected by their material "issues" particularly the first few season's of stuff. They're fine once they're cleaned up, but that does take some doing. A rotary manicurists tool and brass brush is the trick.
>>46554392
Privateer press did a KS recently. KS is no longer a sign of a startup, it's a sign of pushing all risk to the customer by big companies. From a way for the underdog to get their innovative product out, it is turning into a way to make sure the company doesn't risk a cent with their products. A scummy tactic for the scummy take on capitalism we're stuck in since the 90's.
>>46598252
>privateer press
>big company
Mmhm. And I bet you consider Reaper a big company too? That the kickstarter was totally unecessary for them to launch their bones product line?
>>46598252
>KS is no longer a sign of a startup, it's a sign of pushing all risk to the customer by big companies.
These aren't big companies though. Reaper and Mantic have fewer than 150 employees each if I recall correctly.
Kickstarter is being used by these small/medium-sized businesses, which are already established, to get a whole bunch of capital up-front to expand their ranges and production rapidly.
The end result after pledges have been fulfilled has been that Reaper and Mantic have massively expanded their ranges in a short time. I'd say that consumers, despite the backers taking some risk, have benefited greatly from this approach. I don't see much scummy about it, in these cases.
>>46598252
>>46602292
Actually, I'd consider most miniatures companies to be "small" companies. Far larger have campaigned on kickstarter.
>>46547313
Because Mantic is a small fish compared to GW, what is considered good for them would likely be considered abysmal for a company of GW's size.
It doesn't hurt either that no one else really seems to give a damn about non-historical mass battle games, so they've been able to corner a niche. KoW and using cheap models for unit filler in Fantasy is the only damn thing people give a shit about Mantic for.
Mantic was and still mostly is a company that subsists on trying to imitate GW's current games and the scraps it hasn't touched in years (But is potentially beginning to), and seemingly fails half the time. I don't see anything charming about Warpath. I see generic science fiction mixed with pandering in the form of space dorfs and skaven.
>>46547745
>Will they do the same to 40K, it would be utterly suicidally insane to, so they no doubt will.
Nah, because 40k actually sells. Shit, even the more expensive to get into Horus Heresy sells.
>>46563925
It might not be a hobby, but it's almost certainly a miniature game and I can understand why you find the success of it and games like it to be frightening.
>>46586627
>They're still doing crazy shit like £100 for three models boxes that's going to drive away anyone sane.
So pretty much the same as other companies like Privateer Press and Corvus Belli?
>>46604026
>and I can understand why you find the success of it and games like it to be frightening.
Hahaha, what? I never said I find anything frightening. I have no fear of xwing running out any other games on the market at all. It's a completely different niche game that doesnt fill the same niche for every gamer.
>>46604026
Never seen a £100 box of three dudes from CB. Most expensive I've seen is 100 USD for 14. Most large TAGs will run 35-45 USD for a single, sometimes with a second model in the mix.
>>46604098
Sort of sounded that way from your denial of it being competition.
Whether it's niche or not depends on your definition. Going by sales I wouldn't call it niche and going by the fact that games like it usually sell the best in the US I'm not sure I'd call it niche there either.
>>46604122
It's not exactly equivalent, but the same premise is there. You don't need a lot of models so it's okay that you're paying $10+ a piece for them.
The only thing is that GW hasn't really put any restrictions on what type of game AoS is, the rules for those models for example say you can have any number of them in a unit. So that kit can be 1-3 units. Now if those models perform well enough on their own or just as a unit of three, I really can't say.
>>46604026
>I see generic
>I see pandering
>I see imitation
Eh, that's what Mantic first took, which given the market at the time was an excellent business move.
They work slow, and their first priority has always been 1:1 offering a GW alternative. Once they finish filling it out, we're going to start seeing non-GW races just like with Kings of War. Eg Warpath/Deadzone will have Insectoids and a Rebel Alliance of sorts. Hell, GW didn't even have a rat-folk in 40k either, and Space Marines have been split between not-Squats and not-IG but otherwise annihilated which IMO is for the greater good. Orks are competent, spess elves aren't retards, and the setting is grimdark to 10 instead of 11.
Give it some time. They haven't even quite finished putting out the second edition.
Their last priority has always been fluff. They probably know they can't crap out 30 years of fluff on the spot, so they're going to save focus on it for last. Again, it's not a bad business move.
Overall you can't say it's not promising, given the company and current progress. Personally, I'd back another kickstarter of theirs based on where things are going.
>>46603632
I'd agree.
For example, just under a year ago the Shenmue 3 kickstarter was made for an IP owned by Sega and announced by Sony with Sony's financial backing.
A mate and I are considering picking up KoW, but we haven't really delved into the lore yet. Is it worth looking at yet, or should we pretend we're just playing with WHFB armies?
>>46606651
Isn't that because they wanted to gauge if there was enough interest?
Money is arguably the best way of gauging whether or not someone is interested in something.
>>46606804
that's what the Bloodstained justification was
Suzuki said he couldn't make the full game like he wanted to unless $10 million or some exorbitant amount was paid.
Besides, there was a massive shitstorm over its announcement, and that's for a sequel for a series that's been dead for a decade. That was pretty telling as a way of demonstrating interest
>>46606818
>That was pretty telling as a way of demonstrating interest
Eh, I'm not entirely sure about that. Someone can say they like something and then not end up picking the game up until it has already been out for a year and is half-price, simply because there are other things they like better.
For better or worse, something like Kickstarter seems more concrete to me since people are actually putting money on the table and usually for just the game itself or at most what you'd get in a collector's edition.
>>46606924
I'd agree for smaller game companies like Obsidian, Ice Pick Lodge and Wayforward who have used Kickstarter for secondary funding and to demonstrate interest, but the idea of a game associated with guys like Sony and Sega needing $10 million donated to it just to be completed is pretty shitty.
Regardless, this is getting kinda off topic, so I'm going to leave it there
>>46606663
There is some minimal lore there, but not much yet.
Enough to spark your own imagination, but it certainly does feel like a Generic Fantasy Setting right now.
But give it time. It hasn't had the decades of world building that made WFB what it was.
Someone have the pdf of dungeon journal? I mean the Dungeon saga book
>>46610171
You may or may not all have seen these
>>46610171
>>46610189
>>46610171
>>46610189
>>46610203
The centaurs look a hell of a lot better with some paint on them, but are still a little wonky. The salamanders seem like decent stand-ins for saurus warriors, and the naiads are kind of cool. Earth Elemental looks like a cheap mountain king glacier king knock-off to me.
i dont get dreadball team building.
do you even have any chocie in how to build your team?
and if so can you make all possible combinations with the team packs?
>>46610203
I'm not sure I like them in red, but those salamander models look great.
>>46610235
The Naiads look pretty cool too.
>>46610189
The Earth Elemental seems a bit uninspired.
>>46612603
You know, sometimes you just need a good, solid, ordinary Earth Elemental. Still, I think part of it might be the paint job. A better rock texture and maybe some Silfor fiberglass grass rather than peat moss would help it pop, plus some better crystal texturing.
If I wanted something neat and dynamic, I'd get that giant treeman from Warhammer's Wood Elves. I kind of just want that for its model (boss fight for fantasy skirmish games).
>>46612731
GWs stuff tends to be a little bit too busy and overly detailed.
And Mantic's tends to be slightly too generic looking for their larger figures like the elemental.
I'd love to see a nice middle ground of detailed, but not super over complicated.
Realizing people will fund any crowdsource
>>46610272
A "starting team is always the same, in a league you can add more players, but you can never have more than double the starting team. A starting Orc team has 3 Orcs and 5 goblins, it's max size is 6 orcs and 10 goblins. You can also add coaching staff and hire MVPs.
Best way to play is an exhibition max, where you take a starting team plus some extra cash and spend it on upgrades and new players.
>>46598252
This. Really hurts the KS market for small business.
>>46613695
I'd honestly prefer to see stuff from established companies than complete start-ups.
Just look at All Quiet on the Martian Front.
Successful Kickstarter, but the business is absolutely bankrupt and non-existent just two years later. And for an awesome concept of a game as well.
Compare that to Mantic which uses KS to expand, and then continues to do well even outside of KS.
>>46614185
Being established doesn't stop Mantic from being a small business. They have less than 500 employees.
>>46616917
I'm agreeing with you about Mantic.
They use KS to grow and expand, but still are a stable company with stable sales outside of their KS campaigns.
On the flip side, I also want to see brand new things succeed using KS.
But using All Quiet on the Martian Front as an example, even a successful KS doesn't guarantee that the business will be a success.
>>46557177
Oh fuck you buddy. No one in their right mind would produce something like this on purpose if they had any capability to do better.
Mantic looks like shit, end of story. Since I paint my shit I have to look and work with it for quite some time, so I'd rather have models that might be more expensive and not look really bad. Their fantasy range is beyond saving and I doubt they will be able to come up with a lot of original ideas now that they can not copy GW anymore.
>>46617320
No one will argue that the early models are good, but they've improved over time. Hopefully they'll get around to redoing them all eventually.
>>46610171
these are actually aok. Would use for my chaos warband.
>>46587390
The models for scale are left in that picture for a reason anon.
The mom minis grand demon is a good 150 to 200% the size of the mantic demon and it doesn't look like a mcdonalds toy.
>>46588487
This is absolutely true, perhaps not 12, but there are very very few sculptors capable of making miniatures of "I'm happy to buy this" quality, and all of fucking none of them are job hunting.
I've tried my hand at sculpting at let me fucking tell you it not easy. You need to have thousands of hours of experience before you get to any level of quality, you probably need to be 100 minis deep before you make something you'd put on a table and not cry yourself to sleep over because it looks like a deformed balloon animal.
Just like with any art it takes about 10,000 hours to git gud, and it way harder to get hours for sculpting than for say drawing, and it costs way more money to do, and it's a serious niche. All the factors are working against prospective sculptors advancing their art in any great numbers. They are hardly prolific
>>46558184
It doesn't matter to the consumer anon.
At the end of the day I buy what is the best price to quality product.
>>46621122
You don't paint a happy picture for a prospective sculptor like me who's trying to hone his skills. But fuck if I'm not going to try.
>>46621253
Don't worry about it. Dude sounds salty he can't turn out anything he's proud of. There's a lot of work involved, sure, but its not like there is anything stopping you from getting good
>>46621693
Right now I'm trying to turn analogue work into digital by way of a 3D scanner. Scanner and software is what I need now, though casting is also something I've got to research.
Building it one step at a time.
>>46621253
I'm not saying it's impossible to git gud, it's just every factor is in the way of people WANTING to git gud.
To practice sculpting one must actually plan to spend a good amount of time sculpting, they can't just pull out a sketchpad and draw whatever they see for any amount of time. Putty and wire costs at least a fair bit of money, paper and pen is near free. Actually learning is no harder than any other art.
>>46621693
Please cite the part where I sound salty. I'm just explaining why it's so damn hard for people to hire competent sculptors. Because few exist.
>>46621879
Supplies aren't much of a problem for me, I've collected a large amount of what I'll need, including wire, putty, plasticard, corks, tools...
I've finally got a good setup for working so I'm getting back into what I like doing, just waiting for the last few pieces to fall into place so I can start in earnest.
>>46621253
Can we see some of your work?
>>46622571
I honestly don't have much of a portfolio yet, just making my first steps after a pretty long hiatus to focus on school and work.
>>46554634
I'd like to point out that thumbnail's title is incorrect.
You can get twenty of those bad boys in metal for less than $30.
>>46617320
>No one would produce something this shitty on purpose
...How long have you been into tabletop wargames?
Let me guess:
1) You've only ever seen or bought PP/GW/FFG.
Or
2) You don't play at all, just lounge around tg, so you only look at close up studio shots like a painter would see but have never even seen a model at actual table-player distance.
Mantic is literally tabletop quality. Right on the nose.
Miniatures aren't shooting a rocket to the moon. Sure FDM 3D printers aren't high resolution enough for use, but a lot of miniatures are just fine within real world usage conditions.
>>46625860
Not the guy you are talking to but as someone who has been playing wargames since the 90s im telling you that they are below tabletob standard. The only mantic stuff id field is some.of the undead and some of the goblins. Why would you spend the same money on minis that are fucking shit?
Nevermind pp/gw, what about wyrd? Or corvus belli? Or the multitude of small sculptors like russian alternative?
>>46625860
>>46627596
Why is everyone so butthurt about being told mantics minis are shit. They are astoundingly shit for their price. There are lots of astoundingly shit models out the that are more expensive, but that doesnt mean mantics arent still shit. The only good range they have is their undead and they still have a slight happy meal feel to them.
>>46621122
>MoM is on a 50mm base
>Mantic one is on a 75mm base
>MoM demon is somehow nearly twice the size
There minis have improved dramatically over time, especially their hard plastic rank an file which are fully posable and have a lot of extra bits. I would rather work with polystyrene than resin, metal, restic, or something else.
>>46583568
I was actually wondering when this popped in my sub box if you were going to resurrect the thread only to post the link.
You didn't and I appreciate this lack of whoring. Means you do it because you enjoy it and want to support the community.
Well done fishbatbro.
>>46617320
>>46622717
visit trollforged forums
>>46629040
Why do these exist?
>>46629165
Am browsing now, thanks. Asked for sign up so I can see more of it.
>>46631177
Clinical answer is so Dark Eldar players could have some edgy models to decorate their hover-catamaran whatevers.
The deeper answer is that the sculptor himself probably does not know, as if something deep from within himself, or beyond, made his hands the machinations of its emergence into this world. Every day he goes to work, he does his job, he hangs with his friends and enjoys his hobbies, just like anybody else. But at night, in the dark place just between waking and sleep, his thought invariably drift back to those models, and the slimy compulsion that welled up from within on the day he created them, or channeled them, perhaps. It's in that twilight between consciousness and the peaceful oblivion of sleep that he begins to suspect just what he's birthed into this world, just before the pull of exhaustion drags him into the black.
Often, he wakes up in the night screaming, but he never knows why. It's always just beyond the grasp of his consciousness.
>>46627596
>>46628580
See
>>46588487
1) Literally not enough sculptors of the caliber you want going around.
It's illogical to claim "WHY CANT THEY JUST-"
2) They hit nearly 1$ to 1.50$ per miniature for bulk army, covering everything the "myriad of other options" don't when other full-range filler options like Reaper are 3x more expensive.
I don't see people complaining about Reaper's sculpts despite them being a crapshoot.
3) Mantic's Undead used to be "Shit", entire threads on that vs GW's VC. Now everybody who spams "shit sculpts lol u mad" always slips in "except Undead" to give themselves some credence. See the next point.
>Well I don't like the aesthetic of...-
It's just not what you're used to.
4) None of you post some actual fucking comparisons on the bulk of the products.
The GW-style High Elves look like fucking "happy meal" action figures, the GW Orcs look like fucking cartoon gorillas, the Dwarves look like regional variations of the same race, the Mantic Abyssal Dwarves trade all-beard for all-armor, etc.
If you want to talk about shit sculpts, especially for the money, the new larger 40$ models are disappointing and they have a couple of genuine fuckups.
If you want to talk 1500-2000 pts of army, they're not
>GOD TIER AMAZING
>ABSOLUTE SHIT
levels of different for the vast majority.
>>46628580
Also I'm pretty sure that's Mark Hamill on the far left
>>46617320
Also, seriously look at this
>>46629040
Women in particular are extremely fucking difficult to sculpt. Corvus Belli pulls it off with Anime face and modern CAD assistance is the modern fucking Michelangelo and even then some of them still look a bit off.
We'll probably see better from all companies in the future, especially with Infinity pushing this particular issue.
>>46632178
You sound upset
1.Fun fact m8, no one gives a shit why their models are terrible, I'm not gonna buy something because "oh well it's not like they could do better" when I can go buy a better equivalent for similar amounts out of charity.
2.reaper is not bulk seller. Compared to other bulk sellers their prices aren't too amazing. At 1 to 2 dollars a Mini I can buy phenomenal chaos dwarves, beautiful orcs, fantastic empire soldiers or dark elves from a bunch of other companies and they'll actually be models I'll be happy to field. Mantics prices aren't particularly note worth unless you compare them to GW.
3.the general consensus has always been that mantic makes better zombies and ok ghouls but low tier skellies
That's pretty much always been agreed upon
4.sweet opinions
Mantic dwarves are actually terrible, I purchased a box of warriors once and the plastic quality and retarded giant flatheads means they shall live forever in my closet.
Mantic elves are a joke
Mantic daemons are a joke
Mantic trolls are actually the worst models I have ever seen
Ogres are questionable
Goblins, chaos dwarves, and undead have some decent kits but for the most part their are better alternatives
So why don't we see more CAD miniatures? Obviously there's a lot to it as far as proper features needing accentuated for table top viewing, but you'd think they would be more of a push for something that can be revised until it's perfect.
>>46632178
I'm never been a fan of the Mantic models, but I got Dungeon Saga, and I have to admit, the're much better looking in person that in pictures. I think you're right, it's a matter of not being used to.
Also, Mantic should'nt paint the miniatures they showcase in such a crappy quality, if the comissioned the paint of their products to a good painter, they would be look much better. I even searched the internet for pro painting of their minis, and never found anything really good. I know most of us can paint like that, and the average player isn't really into pro painting, (just three color and it's ready right?) but it helps a lot to sell models with a nice showcase highlightning the best side of their minis.
>>46632768
You sound like memes.
> go buy a better equivalent for similar amounts
Like? I don't mean one human army example.
There's 10 model lines just for KoW, and 20 armies.
>Sub 2$ prices on other chaos dwarves, Orcs, etc
You mean that one time Russian Alternative had a 50% off sale? You got a time machine somewhere?
>the general consensus has always been
So the threads in the archive never happened?
>sweet opinions
Images. Like the one I posted in that post for that point.
Words are memes.
>>46632994
Also, pro painter Elf:
>>46633322
They're really hard for newbies to paint. The details are stupid tiny.
Pro painted Orc in
>>46632178
lower left yellow/black shield.
Here's the dragon with a finished paint job.
>>46632994
>>46633453
Old dragon since I didn't think it needed an updated model but whatever.
>>46632994
>>46633453
Not a lot of people have painted the big half-breed model yet.
This job is alright though.
>>46632994
Going to agree with you while I'm skimming through stuff to post.
You know what MOM miniatures has going for it?
Nobody posts their own painted one, there's just the one professional high grade paint job image with perfect airbrushing and blending.
Mantics stuff could look twice as good, eg
>>46633632
is a pretty basic job.
>>46573788
You could make one pretty easily with jewelry chains and some paint to lock them down, or GS if you wanted to sculpt the detail yourself.
>>46633733
Jesus fucking christ I'm drowning in newbie paint digging for shit, I'd be here all night.
Yeah, basically what
>>46632994
said though.
MOM miniatures though is an excellent of example of this though, where picture is all airbrushing and blending. If you passed the same model to the painters Mantic keeps commissioning, it would look like a fucking Mattel toy.
The other bulk of "problems" for Mantic is stuff like people having an autistic fit over small legs on Trolls and Ogres and other proportional stuff.
Yet not when it's in Warmahordes, Malifaux, etc, etc.
>>46633322
Mantics only good point is its large range
Too bad 80% of it is worthless,and while they have a lot of minis in and of theneselves they have very few boxes that an alternative can't be found somewhere
Russian alt chaos dwarves are currently less than 2 dollars a pop, so I don't think I need a time machine for that
You can find someone who hates any models you can find. And the threads are mostly talking about how things other than the zombies are bad. Because they are for the most part. Zombies and ghouls are fine, everything else is generally inferior to the GW equivalent
There really is no reason to buy mantoc unless you're picking up the one or two kits for your army that can't be found elsewhere, except if you do that you have to pay a stupid amount Because outside of bulk deals mantic prices are retarded. For example they've got a monoploly on bull centaurs and chaos dwarf arty (and the centaurs are actually table top quality arty less so) but everything else I see no reason to not just pick up from the dozen other companies that make chaos dwarves
I like kings of war and some of mantics new releases have been genuinely good however. The new centaurs are fe first mantic box I've ever seen and actually throught "I want that" not "well I guess I need it for my army". The dead zone previews are also promising.
It's in all of our best interest for mantic to succeed but I can't just praise them for putting out garbage.
>>46634074
Eh, the Behemoth gets a lot of flack for its tiny legs.
>>46634074
Many people think warmachine models are pretty low quality dude, no one ever gushes about them for the most part, but people care less because it's more game than hobby so to speak. That said the problem I think for the trolls is the tiny waist and arms 5 times the mass of the legs and the fact they have far too human faces with their silly warcraft hunch look.
Not to suck Russian alt off too hard but their trolls are lovely.
>>46633322
That's a nice paint job but totally feasible and doable. It also does look a lot nicer than the mantic paint jobs.
>>46633322
That elf reminds me of him for some reason
>>46634591
>Quentin Tarantinelf
>>46634146
>Russian alt chaos dwarves are currently less than 2 dollars a pop
You mean 19.50 to 25.50 for 10 rank and file?
Mantic is 2$ a mini including: large infantry, cavalry, warmachine, and hero. You could also say there's no reason not to buy a bulk deal from Mantic, then flesh it out with alternative models from there.
Whatever man. The one thing I want to point out with emphasis though is:
Paint makes the mini, and photography makes the promo.
What pisses me off, as in the "lol u mad" levels of pissed off, is people posting genuine studio quality painter work while arguing that's exactly what will actually hit your table when you get it.
If anything, the mantic store promo photos are the most accurate product pictures I've ever seen.
>>46634388
>Look lovely
See prior paragraph. Detail from the painter, proper lighting, and proper knowledge of how to use a camera can add 20$ to any miniature's value. Strip that and you're just buying a Troll with the body type you like.
>>46634647
Not to mention: The perfectly crisp promo photos of that quality aren't what it looks like in store under cheap florescent lights or actual eyes either.
Pisses me off I spent time and money of proper lights and a box for painting, spend time working under those conditions plus good photos, then I get it in store to exam it IRL and I might as well have not fucking bothered with all the effort.
>>46634074
I really hate Mantic Trolls, godamn those tiny legs and heads. The ogre looks fucking good tough, that's more how I ever imagined ogres insteads of the fattys than GW used.
>>46632385
I posted this because people hold up GW to be some company that never releases shite minis and they actually have their healthy share of really bad miniatures.
>>46635440
Is that GW then?
Sweet fucking jesus. I guess it still holds up my point about women being a PITA to sculpt.
>>46635440
Wut, Gw has plenty of very bad or meh minis. My prefered is Pumba at this.
>>46635440
>because people hold up GW to be some company that never releases shite minis
what fucking people? In the past months people have been shitting all over the space yiffs, the fyreslayers, and now the dragonballs
>>46636940
AoS release are pretty bad, all of them. I would save the little gryphon and the two slaughterpriest, but the rest...
>>46637925
I kinda like most of the khorne stuff if it was less overdeisgned, but the archeon stuff, stormstormhammersigmars, ORRUK IRONJAWS TM and the mirrorslayers look like garberoni
>>46617320
>I know I'll sperg out, that'll show them!
Consider us told.
>>46638645
>I know I'll accuse him of sperging out, that'll show them!
>>46638340
It really is sad that GW is going for the whole WoW aesthetic. I have always liked the fantasy range for having a "standard" fantasy appearance with some cool historical inspirations instead of focusing on hueg pauldrons like 40K and Warmachine.
>>46639145
The pauldrons drive me insane, and it's throughout all ranges. I had such a hard time enjoying WM/H back when I played it because of that.
