Why is it acceptable to make yourself immortal by becoming a monk, but not by becoming a lich?
>>46525894
Because undead=evil
>>46525894
Because monks don't need to split their soul to pieces to gain immortality.
Splitting your soul is inherently Evil, by the way.
>funimation
>>46526018
Why? It's my soul, I can do whatever I want with it.
>>46526018
It's Evil because the universe says it is, but there's no concrete social injustice in doing so. You haven't harmed anyone. It's a victimless crime... against nature.
>>46526036
Evil =/= evil. The former is an objective fundamental constant of the universe and the latter is a subjective preference of morality. The former likely only bears its name because people decided to make their "Good," sound objectively superior.
>>46525894
Because to become a Lich, you must perform a horrifyingly evil ritual?
>>46526072
>>46526036
Souls are lent out by the great soul-pool and expected to be returned when you are done with them.
>>46526075
Well, fuck the universe then.
I'm not going to let my soul go and be used as currency or as a method of empowerment to either a bunch of creatures slaved to their own existence or ascended conceptual beings with a superiority complex that have done nothing to actually benefit me beyond maybe preserving their own existence via holding off some existential threat with my peoples' continuation merely being a side-effect.
>>46526100
The cycle of eternal return is socialism.
>>46526115
Lemme get you a fedora
>Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.
?
>>46526138
Fedoras belong to the Gods, because they gift themselves to the worlds of mortals.
>>46526036
No, god gave you your soul.
You have solely the right to use it for living.
It's the same reason why you are not allowed to burn money.
>>46525894
In DnD, becoming a lich generally requires a ritual which, while never really described in detail, is supposed to require doing some extremely evil stuff. Also, in 5th edition liches have to consume souls to maintain their immortality, which is generally considered evil.
Although, some editions have had the archlich, which is essentially a non-evil lich created by somebody doing a much more complex, expensive and time-consuming ritual to turn into an immortal skeleton-man without sacrificing any orphans or whatever. They're very rare because most of the kind of people who want to be the spooky skeleton-man will rather do it as quickly as possible, and don't care if they have to kick puppies and sacrifice orphans to do it.
>>46525894
Depends on the setting
>>46526232
>God gives souls to people
>God is a gestalt entity formed from the collective belief of people
>People that God needed to give souls to in order to exist
Something doesn't add up.
>>46526290
People's belief retroactively made God what he is today.
>>46526232
A being without a soul has no business deciding how they should be used. If they're so valuable, why do the gods waste so many of them by jamming them into the Wall of the Faithless?
>>46526232
Then god's a fucking indian taker and no one gives a shit what they want.
>>46526290
>Something doesn't add up.
What came first - the chicken or the egg?
>>46525894
>Why is it acceptable to make yourself immortal by becoming a monk, but not by becoming a lich?
because liches come from the monster manual and monks come from the PHB
also >>46526248
>>46526348
the phrase is indian giver
>>46526290
#2 doesn't always hold, and neither does #1.
It depends on the setting.
Why does everyone always assume Forgotten Realms rules?
>>46526362
The Egg, whatever laid the egg that birthed the chicken was very close to being a chicken but not close doesn't quite cut it.
That question has always been retarded.
>>46526018
So you'd call me "evil" just because I cut my life into peices, even if this was my last resort?
>>46525894
Lich is potentially very dangerous.
Monk is pretty much harmless.
>>46526389
Because the Forgotten Realms is fucked and nobody cares enough to dive into it long enough to dredge up concrete answers.
>>46526389
Because when the uninitiated think tabletop games, they think modern FR D&D if anything.
>>46526447
The uninitiated don't even know DnD lore. They know whatever lore they gathered from anime and video games.
>>46526447
3rd edition core is greyhawk not fr
that's why it's always pelor and friends, as well
>>46526393
Its only been retarded since people started widely understanding and accepting evolution. Before then it was reasonable to not know the answer.
I can become immortal?
Shit, I just wanted to be Goku. Becoming a master of punching is fucking cool.
>>46525894
Give somebody like a wizard immortal life and he will destroy the world with his might
Give somebody like a monk immortal life and he'll still be bottom tier.
>>46526398
I want to use one of these bad boys one day, shame I haven't found a good reason to do so.
>>46526517
Then I suggest you don't become Goku, you become the original.
Sun Wulong is much cooler, much more immortal and pretty rad at punching people as well.
>>46526534
Eh, the most depraved and malicious Wizard still won't be as bad as the Olympians.
Least that fucker had to gruelingly earn his powah.
>>46526240
This is the correct answer.
>>46526248
Also this.
>>46526394
It might be acceptable if there's suffocation, no breathing.
Because DnD is shit.
>>46526613
Here's your (You), so you can go now.
Monks are lame. In particular, tabletop monks. There are individual cool monks, but their concept is lame. There, I said it. Been meaning to get that off my chest for years.
>>46526652
No one is on the other side of that argument. They've been potato/joke-tier forever.
>>46526541
>Shatter is an exception to magic immunity, dealing half damage
>Sonic resistance explicitly applies
>Shatter deals maximum 10d6, so 30 damage after halving
>Sonic resistance 100
Something doesn't add up.
>>46526630
Even if i leave, DnD will still be shit.
>>46525894
Because back in the day, being a lich meant doing some pretty hardcore shit like killing a bunch of people and personally murdering a baby. It wasn't even guaranteed to work either. Even if you did the whole thing right, it all came down to a roll to see if you come back, and if you failed it you were dead for good. And if you succeeded, the darkness corrupted your mind or something, turning you into a monster under the DM's control.
Nowadays with casualized lichdom (i.e. "I'm a super strong skeleton wizard and I'm kinda edgy for vague unexplained reasons"), I guess it's not as easy to see why it was such a bad thing.
>>46525894
An immortal monk can still be killed.
A lich's body is not tied to his soul, so he can outlive the death or destruction of his body.
>>46528280
And really old liches are basically pure magic and some shiny rocks with attitude.
>>46526232
Wait, where do you live where you can't burn money? It's stupid but I have no laws against it should I want.
>>46526140
Are we not gonna acknowledge this?
>>46528662
In Burgerstan it's illegal to destroy legal federal tender.
>>46528662
In the greatest country on earth, of course.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7148966/ns/business-answer_desk/t/it-crime-burn-money/#.VwbeKvkrLIU
>>46526606
But you won't give a fuck if you cut your arm, cause there's no bleeding anymore because you're a lich.
>>46525894
Can't you like put one level into becoming monk for immortality after being some sort of high wizard for x levels anyway?
>>46528783
>you won't give a fuck if you cut your arm, cause there's no bleeding anymore because you're a lich.
There is still bone damage. That adds up, you know.
>>46528833
Where do you guys come up with this stuff?
>>46528833
And lose my spell slots? Don't be stupid.
>>46528662
Money is a document given to you by the state. You are allowed to use it but in the end it is not yours, so you are not allowed to destroy it since it weakens the economy.
>>46526240
>be archlich
>hate fucking liches
>spending today writing an introduction to your Guide to Necromancy: Intermediate Edition
>you've seen far too many novices over the years, even before immortality, doing stupid shit
>summoning an ancient spirit without binding it properly
>raising a dozen shitty skellies instead of pouring magicka into two or three to make them actually worth a damn
>not to mention the whole "skeleton king" debacle
>although that was rather fun from the viewpoint of an adventurer, as a necromancer it was just embarrassing
>where was I? Oh yes, writing.
>suddenly paladins burst in with holy symbol badges
>again
>something about smiting you for being a lich
>how many fucking holy orders do you need to educate?
>you have a literal spirit of good and order who witnessed your immortality ritual
>the amount of times you had to summon her to testify at trials for you was getting ridiculous
>you'd started keeping the cookies she liked in stock just because of the sheer regularity
>but still, more fucking paladins smash your door into your tower of dread magic
>you don't really blame them though
>fucking liches giving hard working NG archliches like you a bad name
>you were seriously considering dropping an alignment bracket and just banishing the latest bunch of paladins- oh and cleric- into some desert
>the great Western Desert still existed right?
>eh... probably more trouble than it was worth
>maybe next time
>you definitely need some kind of sign though
>"no door-to-door soliciting, bards, preaching, bards, smiting or bards. Cookies welcome", perhaps?
>...oh corellon, the paladin is still monologuing
>>46525894
Some people find certain types of lichdom acceptable. Take the elves and their baelnorn, for instance.
Also, dry lich.
>>46529082
Also, this
>>46526090
Sacrifices of infants, and whatnot. People don't take kindly to that. The main reason that baelnorns and dry liches are acceptable is that the process of becoming one involves less of that sort of thing.
>>46526394
I really liked the Vancouver aquarium's frog exhibit.
Look how sad this little bugger looks.
>>46525894
Let's look at the Ritual of Becoming
>Sacrifice someone twice your younger and twice your older
>Under the guidance of an evil outsider
>Then your phylactery must be sanctified on a Death God's Alter
Monk's Timeless Body
>Class Feature
>can still die of old age
You have to sacrifice and condemn the souls of two people to create a phylactory.
People saying that it's a crime against nature or that it's "evil because it is" don't understand the process. You murder and condemn people, which is considered evil in a moral realist setting.
>>46528662
Canada too, I got questioned by a teller when I turned in a loonie the lawnmower chewed up.
>>46529258
>>46529355
>Local government kills thieves if they steal something valuable enough, to say nothing of more serious crimes.
>Executing them as part of a ritual to become the kingdom's eternal benefactor is wro~o~ong tho.
Pfft.
>>46529519
condemnation of a sentient beings soul is hardcore evil in every moral realist setting, no exceptions. A government sacrificing the souls of criminals to demons is what you are describing. That's not what a lawful good society does.
>>46528833
Level one monks aren't immortal, so no.
>>46529709
There is no such thing as a lawful good society.
There is only society, and the facades the ruling body puts up.
>>46529819
A non-corrupt peaceful communal society with social equality can easily be lawful good and is completely reasonable within the confines of almost any setting.
>>46529819
akagifag?
>>46529819
You can say that about your setting if you're running the game. If you are the PC, you'll have to make the case. And you'll probably need more narrative positioning than what is here.
>>46525894
>Why is it acceptable to make yourself immortal by becoming a monk, but not by becoming a lich?
Because people are both afraid of zombies and dont stop burying corpses on a place with them.
All questions of /tg/ can be answered with one of those choices, find the one that appply
1-Myths
2-Lord of the Rings
3-D&d
4-Fatal
5-Hybrid
6-Gurps
>>46529875
Yeah, maybe if the entire world was made of marshmallows and ruled by an omnipresent God that doesn't suffer degradation of passion.
>>46530007
7-Space Marines eat brains to absorb memories
>>46525993
What about arch-liches?
>>46529819
>There is no such thing as a lawful good society.
There is when God objectively exists and personally dictates morality to His servants.
>>46531822
Only if those servants don't have free will.
>>46526541
>Trap the Soul
>If the target makes its save half its levels are drained
>if you don't, you're trapped in a soul gem
How are you supposed to fight this thing again?
>>46532429
You're not.
>>46525894
Becoming a monk requires one taking an enormous load of sticks up his ass, so that the immortality seems like a fair compensation for an enormous amount of physical and spiritual limitations.
Meanwhile a lich just cheats death with some magical bullshit. That's not fucking fair. That nigga must suffer.
>>46526394
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3soskkvYBgM
ur 1 cheeky fckr
>>46525894
IT. DEPENDS. ON. THE. SETTING.
Why do you demand a single correct answer about fictional things that only have whatever properties the author decides?
>>46525894
According to D&D 2nd e. The act of becoming a lich isn't evil, even if some of the components might be, but it actually states that very rarely, a good cleric will become a lich.
I run a game with a good lich in it. He is a forebearer of a noble house. He can't publicly be a part of it but he became immortal to watch over his family. He made his phylactery his bloodline.
>>46525894
One requires self sacrifice, hard work, and dedication, the other requires sacrificing others because you believe yourself too important to die yet.
>>46531907
*only if those servant's behavior is fundamentally flawed, allowing them to not recognize the obvious nature of their reality.
>>46532645
Perhaps OP wanted to promote discussion about the perceived ethical differences of archetypal Liches and Monks, despite knowing that minor details depend on the setting.
Perhaps they wanted to highlight these ethical differences so that, should a GM include both in their game, they'd be aware of the juxtaposition and use it in interesting ways, despite knowing that minor details depend on the setting.
Perhaps they just asked the question to trigger people like you.
Either way, when has saying "depends on the setting" ever contributed to the discussion?
>>46532776
If OP intended to promote discussion, they would've made that intent clear.
>>46525993
Evil! = evil/bad
>>46526036
That attitude is how you get and spread soul AIDS.
>>46532776
Eh, would still say that the monk forges their own soul into something far more durable than it originally was, while the lich takes their weaker soul and not only hides it, but sacrifices souls of others to fix the gaps as it and it's vessel corrode over time.
>>46532579
You have to watch everyone you care about grow old and die, your body becomes a desiccated shadow of its former self, and you will only know peace at the end of all things.
>>46526696
At those levels, you'll want to use heavily intensified and enhanced damage spells if you're gonna bother at all, also there's ways to bypass resistances, etc.
>>46526541
>Phylacteric transference
That ability alone makes this thing impossible to kill via anything that's not GM fiat in the highest magnitude.
>>46525894
One involves gaining mastery over both your body and your mind the other involves a ritual that entails sacrificing children/innocents.
>>46533038
If a lich makes a conscious decision to become one it means that (for various reasons) he values his own life more than any of that, and eventually comes out of the existential struggle with death as a winner.
Meanwhile a monk is not a winner - he has left the struggle behind him. Death is indifferent towards him because he is indifferent towards mortal life. His account is balanced.
>>46533161
Apathy is truly the path to immortality. You get so apathetic you don't even care about the concept of death.
>>46533094
Problem: "unkillable" enemy.
Solution: sono chi your sadames.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1YcJkYBAxQ
>>46533278
Pretty sure the Akalich will just bullshit it's way back.
>>46533346
Yeah, he's a fag. So you just need to be a bigger fag to beat him.
Speaking of immortality, how about them Elans?
>>46526140
>>46528677
It's like.. it's like people just want to argue.
>>46533037
I'd say the monk is more forging their body and mind to be a better vessel given they still die eventually.
Where as the litch abandons the body to bind their soul and mind using the souls of others as their new sort of food.
>>46525894
>Why is it acceptable to make yourself immortal by becoming a monk
I don't know
it doesn't really make any sense considering acceptance of death is a really integral part to enlightenment
in fact, an important and final trial of monks should be getting to the point at which you go to face death
>>46533094
>>46533278
>>46526541
What the fuck? No seriously, why does Phylacteric Transference (something a demilich has as well) make it unkillable?
Literally all Phylacteric Transference does is let a demilich or akalich "equip" items despite being a skull/hand or a shadow, and protect them from being Disjoined since they're not physically there.
Since PCs don't Disjoin their enemies (just imagine how fucked PCs would be if they Disjoined millions of gold pieces worth of items), especially at those levels since there's a decent chance they'll wind up Disjoining an artifact and destroying their own magical powers permanently, how does Phylacteric Transference make it unkillable?
I wouldn't say they're unbeatable, just not something you want to take lightly.
>>46533038
I also have forever to get over it.
>>46529199
Nice rare Pepe.
>>46529362
Bills are fine, you just can't fuck with coins.
>>46531822
It fails again when there's multiple Gods with their own set of laws and definitions of "good"
>>46526563
>Thinks the Olympians didn't earn their power.
Hey, when was the last time *you* clawed your way out of your father's stomach and fought him and all his brothers and sisters in a war that kinda-sorta wrecked the whole goddamn world?
>>46532924
>Implying I don't use protection
>>46529022
just put up a welcome mat
they'll spend AGES checking for traps
make sure it's blessed too
>>46526362
Yeah, don't start that shit when talking about things with non-linear causality.
>>46526140
>>46526118
>>46526115
Yall are faggots to extreme. Monks just dont get decrepit, they still die of old age. Liches get all dusty and shit, and seperate themselves from reality. DO you want to end up so bored you harves planets for skeletons to build yourself a necromancy powered computer? Fuck that.
Conjuration, yo. YOU LITERALLY GO TO A PLANE WHEN YOU DIE. Its even on a map. PLANE SHIFT BACK TO THE PRIME MATERIAL AFTER YOU GET YOUR SWEET EXTRAPLANAR BODY, YO.
>>46526290
wriggly entity makes people, people's collective conception of said wriggly mass alters wriggly mas in it's image
>>46535703
But the gods define themselves as Evil, Good, or whatever is in between. Discovering the 'true nature' of a god which is not what it claims to be is the stuff campaigns are made of.
>>46536121
Last week.
I have a very small world.
>>46537271
So people who seek immortality tend to be evil not because seeking immortality is evil in itself, but because generally only evil people can become so desperate to avoid getting their just rewards when they die.
>>46537909
What if people just don't want to give their shit to the vultures?
>>46537963
Then they should write a last will.
>>46537987
When has a last will ever stopped anyone from getting free shit from the abandoned house and grave?
>>46525894
The same rason its ok to kill in self defence but not to kill for pleasure.
Its fucked up mang.
>>46538004
>not adopting a few loving little girls so they make sure you get a proper burial, your last will is respected and somebody will remember you
>>46525894
Its not acceptable. There is literally a being of pure law that comes and kills you if you've lived too long.
>>46525894
Depends on the setting.
>>46538030
Why not just pull a Divayth Fyr? Become immortal, make female clones of yourself to act as daughters and wives all the while making the most powerful men in the world piss themselves whenever you raise a disapproving eyebrow in their general direction?
>>46525894
Why become a lich to begin with?
Necromancy is the shittiest and least useful of dark magics.
>>46526118
soul-cialism*
>>46538140
The big alternative is demonology, yeah? It seems like selling your soul to Hell for eternal life is really going to go as badly as or worse than the lich thing ever will, in the long run.
>>46525993
wow fucking racist
just because I am showing bones it doesn't mean I have no feels you monster
Monk class features don't give immortality, they just let you not take aging penalties. You still die when your time is up.
The only class feature that gives true immortality that I know of, in D&D 3.5, is the incredibly obscure (and almost completely useless) Cloud Anchorite.
>>46538264
Immortality at 10th level? Shame the class is fucking worthless outside flavor.
>>46525894
It ultimately depends on the setting.
But if we're talking the generally accepted version of liches and monks, liches have to feed souls to their phylactery and/or are evil by their very being because of the fact that they're animated by negative energy, which is essentially pure evil.
Meanwhile monks just focus on their chi a lot and obtain inner peace and immortality or some shit. You can still kill a monk and they won't come back, though. A lich's immortality is by far way better than a monk's unless you find the lich's cleverly hidden soul-in-a-jar.
>>46538345
Eh, what's so bad about feeding souls to maintain immortality?
It's not like anyone gives a shit about bandits, or slaves, or peasants.
Seriously, unless you need like, a thousand freshly raped babies a day nobody is actually going to care unless you are just a massively convenient red herring for people to look at while they line their pockets and / or plot a coup.
>>46538378
Any good aligned person would have an issue with that. Killing a bandit/slave/peasant via execution, just or not, will still leave their soul be to go on to wherever their determined afterlife shall be, to either be at peace or to be tormented.
Feeding someone's soul to a phylactery is completely different because you're tossing them to oblivion. They're gone, done, no coming back. The only feasible thing that could bring someone back from that is divine intervention or an extremely powerful spell like Wish.
>>46525894
Because you can't trust a wizard.
>>46528952
>less money=weaker economy
mugabe pls
>>46532429
It's from Immortal's Handbook, so the PCs that fight the thing are probably literal demigods, with immunities to such paltry things as level drain.
>>46538345
>A lich's immortality is by far way better than a monk's
>Not having your genitals
>A good option
>>46538459
Also:
>cant eat
>cant feel
>cant sleep
>can only read books and imagine how good life used to be
>>46538459
>Polymorph self
>Not halting your decay
>Giving a shit about a meat dong when you can soul-fuck hot ghost bitches.
Admit it, you would fuck Samara in a heartbeat.
>>46538459
Also no taste buds to enjoy Cheetos and Mountain Dew with.
>>46538474
That sounds like a mix between /r9k/, /v/ and /lit/ all put into one creature.
>>46538232
Exactly, its a no brainer cult thing with little rewards.
Besides, necromancy gods sre all demons.
>>46528662
A lot of the answers are for America but it's just the same here in the Philippines. Where do you live though?
Does your country actually allow the destruction of currency or did you just not know about it?
>>46538477
>>Polymorph self
Only makes you appear like what yo turn into. Or else your everything would go fuck itself when you turn into a dumber animal.
>>Not halting your decay
How? Good energy harms you.
>>Giving a shit about a meat dong when you can soul-fuck hot ghost bitches.
Nigga ghosts cant fuck bitches thats why those niggas be all hauntin n shit.
>>46538487
Hence Evil.
>>46538517
Gentle Repose and a fuck-ton of alchemy could theoretically keep a body perfectly preserved forever.
>>46538487
Yeah, its why fedoras flock to necromancy and how it isnt all bad.
Familiarity.
>>46525894
Because fuick you and your shitty character ideas thats why.
>>46538535
But no really, that's funny.
>>46538535
Welladjusted people don't become school shooters or rant about normies. In fantasy settings they become liches and demon worshippers.
>>46538487
>can't feel
>>46538599
>>tfw no penis
>>Cant taste tendies
>>tfw no necromancy gf cause cadalin keeps stealing the girls why cant women appriciate a good necromancer :^(
>>46525993
What you just said is utter discrimination.
I can somehow tolerate it if you were referring to undead that were raised by evil necromancers (and even then not all necromancers are evil).
But what about those undead that raised themselves from their graves due to things like black magic radiation or some other bizarre magical phenomena and don't know what to do?
>>46538535
Knights and paladins are their Chads! This would explain the kneejerk some of the more misanthropic players have towards paladins.
>>46538691
>don't know what to do
Usually this isnt the case since they are mindless.
>>46538691
They spread diseases with their rotting bodies and have no respect of how much work mortals put in just to stay alive. The undead in fantasy settings are basically all wellfare leeches that thinks they deserve even more.
>>46538732
And what if the undead regained their senses and personalities due to said magical phenomena?
The stereotype of mindless undead need to become deader than dead, seriously...
>>46538744
Actually it's more like they are pissed because somebody did not install an anti-magic and anti-necromancer system in the graveyard and didn't double the patrols there.
>>46538779
>And what if the undead regained their senses and personalities due to said magical phenomena?
well if you go into that territory you have to throw everything else out too.
But if you want to be a bitch boy about it then they are simply revaluated into society with people constantly fearing them cause dangereous majority>harmless minority.
They most likely kill themselves
>>46538779
Dead people should always be cremated in a setting that has necromancers.
>>46529709
My gods Wealth and Power are as lawful and good as they come.
>>46538830
Yeah. Then again why didn't anyone thought about it?
>>46538894
Bad worldbuilding.
>>46538779
>and what if the undead regained their senses and personalities
What indeed, Anon.
>>46538894
Their religion is against cremation.
>>46538931
Again, that's stupid in a setting that has necromancy and undeads. It kinda implies that either the religious organisation or their god is retarded.
>>46538908
Word.
That, or simply there would be something about cremating bodies that people would see as unpopular. Then again, we all turn to ash one day.
>>46538919
We really need more sentient undead. Just to see a whole necropolis to chase away adventurers that are disturbing their eternal slumber with their shenanigans.
>>46538931
And they are surprised that jackass necromancers have an easy time with recruitment...
>>46538894
Because the players who want to be necromancers get salty.
>>46538965
Then have him make golems from various materials.
>>46538944
>le bad adventurers go away enlightened civilization.
Wish this meme would die
>>46526696
Because it's trash. The entire Immortal's Handbook is an exercise in warping the system to try and include nonsensically high numbers.
There used to be some challenge from the writers to defeat Dispater with a 20th level character, and it was just... autistic. Most of the viable strategies were banned because they worked - because of course, "that's just exploiting the system".
>>46538944
I've always been a fan of self-made Undead. Not Liches, but they're cool too--I really dig the idea of someone who dies, but just refuses to stay dead and gets right back up again and keeps going. I know that in settings like D&D they tend to be Revenants and the like, but I've got too much of abonerfor skeletons. I've wanted to play a skeleton--monk, probably--for quite some time now.Almost all my WoW characters were Forsaken when I first played;back when I first started, Undead being an actual playable faction was way too cool and they became my favorites
>>46538965
Those players are just >>46538487
They deserve no pandering.
>>46525894
In this thread:
Most assume there is only one form of Lich.
Everyone is vaguely talking about DnD lichdom.
Only two or three posters even know that the lichdom ritual is very varied and doesn't necessarily contain anything evil at all - a drow wandmaker once crafted a Wand of Lichdom.
And nobody is really talking about monks, because nobody cares about them.
>>46538692
I dislike paladins because MUH CODE makes them tiresome to party with.
>>46529022
Next plot for my LG party identified.
Church records show every few hundred years that they failed to overcome a very powerful lich. Every few hundred years a new set of overzealous adventurers follow this lead in the quest for justice.
Oh how language changes as time flies.
>>46537271
no, dude.
when you die you become a petitioner, literally a lv 4 creature. even if you maintained that planeshift ability petitioners are like planebound and can't leave. lemurs and manes are devil/demon petitioners that can circumvent this because they are living soul currency and are exchanged, but they still are shit and in most cases dumb as bricks.
>>46539001
To be fair, Revenants are de facto the spiritual precursors of zombies...and hence much older than zombies. And also are so much more interesting since you can explore how a dude has to deal with the fact that he's now a walking corpse.
Also you could fluff out Liches as the type of undead you like, but with the addition that they got reanimated by the same magical powers they wielded in life.
Also I'd be for a more non-standard approach to undead in terms of alignment. Seriously this D&D thing with dem bones that are not an Arch Lich bein always evil is getting tiresome.
>>46539027
It's varied sure, but all liches eventually end up either going insane or killing people to preserve themselves
>>46539027
>Most assume there is only one form of Lich.
Then tell us about the other liches from other settings and how they dont make the original question pointless since then its up to so many different variables that it becomes impossible to answere properly.
>>46539033
>lich becomes quest giver/sage for PCs afterward
>charges them with going to the Archives of Kras'Dohm and seeking the Tome of Undeath
>gives them an ancient enchanted scroll to allow them access to the ruins
>turns out the Archives were just a members-only library in his time
>he lent them his library car/door pass to take out a book of largely harmless necromantic theory to fact-check
>apologises for the misunderstanding when they get back, had no idea!
>here as a thank you for clearing out those monsters while you were at it, have a couple arcane devices
>no need for adventuring equipment at his age after all! Hohoho!After waving them off sinks into depressed silence. Where has the time gone? The Archives are now ruins? But... He was there just a decade or so, surely? There was the lovely half-elf ith that blend of tea.
Where has the time gone?
>>46538940
So real world equivalent then.
>>46539119
Love it!
Sending them to the lowest level of the city catacombs, because they just built on top of older ones.
He just wanted them to tidy up his fathers grave a bit. Sorry about all the oozes.
I really should visit daddy one more time before the whole city is dust.
Next time:
ANCIENT LICH IS ATTACKING THE CITY ANCIENT LICH IS ATTACKING THE CITY!
"Good morning dear flower vendor, could I purchase a dozen lillies please.... flower vendor?"
Liches are evil, because of their nature. As they are now powerful warlock skeletons, their only need is gain more power, and they will do everything to reach this goal, so eventualy they end as psychopatic, heartless (literally) killers. Also they are often suffers from paranoia about their phylactery, and they will kill anything if it even just mention about it.
If you wanna be immortal, and still remain not-so-evil-after-all, becoming vampire is a better choice. He still can behave like human, even if he must drink blood, well everyone must eat something, so it's not that bad in terms of nature law...
>>46528662
Most countries view currency as government property, and as such destroying or defacing it is destruction of government property. Most governments frown on that sort of thing.
>>46538830
Those just come back as burning ghosts.
>>46539247
Sorry I can't read that with all the glitter you shooting out of every pore you faggy vampire lover.
>>46533161
Actually, considering a lich can die if their phylactery is destroyed, I would say they are less the victor and more that they have gone into overtime.
>>46533714
Could mean that they meet death, but through their own state of enlightenment, pass through it to some greater truth, transcending such things in the end.
>>46539028
So, just like real life.
>>46539859
Once they turn into a demilich nothing but DM fiat can kill them.
I'm of the mind that undead aren't inherently evil since negative energy isn't evil in of itself. Intelligent undead turn out evil only if they were evil in life.
>>46526072
As I remember it, you have to do some evil spell that needs sacrifices. Details are up to GM, but the general gist of DnD liches is that you have to do something horrible to gain immortality.
>>46538691
Do you know what the word "discrimination" means?
"The recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another."
You are correct that if I see a rotting corpse shambling towards me and scream in horror, I am discriminating against the undead. You would be correct in saying that, if I, while washing my car, turned around to see a maggot-infested cadaver stumbling towards me with its rotting fangs bared, and I, being an American, took my .38 out of my glovebox and blew its head off, I would have acted in a prejudicial fashion towards that creature.
The fault in your assertion is that discrimination is not wrong. Prejudice is not wrong. Being wrong is wrong, but if you discriminate against a pit viper, you have committed no sin, because pit vipers are, in fact, dangerous and murderous in temperment. Similarly if you are getting milk at 2 AM and a black man in a ski mask bursts into your kitchen with a crowbar and, being an American, you pull your .357 out of the milk carton and blow his head off, you have acted in a prejudiced manner, you pre-judged that nigger to be a criminal.
But you weren't wrong. He was a criminal. And similarly, I was not wrong, that was a fucking zombie. When was the last time a zombie didn't try to eat you? Planescape Torment? Well call me when we get to Sigil mack, because right now we're in New Mexico, and so help me God if I see a Lich I'm magdumping.
>>46540270
what brand of milk do you buy that has a .357 in it?
>>46540591
Smith's and Wesson's
>>46540270
>and, being an American, you pull your .357 out of the milk carton
>>46540591
Vitamin Lead milk, look for the brass cap in the dairy isle.
>>46540270
>pull your .357 out of the milk carton
I thought Americans kept their milk in bags, not cartons?
>Why is it acceptable to make yourself immortal by becoming a monk, but not by becoming a lich?
>Why is it acceptable to make yourself money by working a 9-5 desk job, but not by robbing banks?
>Why is it acceptable to get laid by seducing someone, but not by raping them?
>>46525894
Because monks are easterners, thus protected by human rights
>>46525894
Because nobody plays a monk long enough to actually become immortal.
>>46540672
That's Canadians.
>>46537271
Monks of the four winds become immortal, by "defeating death", so that first part is wrong. Second, the whole boredom thing been done to death, and literally anyone who seeks infinite age probably has things they want to do with it that are too big for normal lifespans. Any prick who's only going after the extra years because they just want extra years as if they were a currency is dumb. Third, petitioners, as people have mentioned, are kinda a crapshoot, the Outsider form you take on is specifically designed to degrade over time at a constant rate until nothing exists. This means petitioners, while potentially very powerful, are even more mortal than mortals, which can be brought back from the dead.
>>46537909
Not entirely true, especially if we're talking golarion here, where all souls are eventually deconstructed and cease to exist as their building blocks are reused for making new souls. It shouldn't really be viewed as evil to believe that's a naff system, one designed in part by literally the devil, and it shouldn't really be bad to say that it's a shitty deal that mortal souls have to be destroyed while the souls of gods are exempt from this cycle because of their inherent status as gods, given that we know they can in fact kill each other. Even with regards to the Groetus Event, it's only stated for sure that he's going to kill pharasma, with no word on whether or not the other gods will be taken either.
>>46540719
>Why is it acceptable to make yourself money by working a 9-5 desk job, but not by robbing banks?
I could argue that this one is just because the upper crust of society praises the submissive and scorns the clever.
>>46540816
>people who work 9-5 desk jobs aren't clever
>having a respectable job means you're submissive
>muh evil upper crust
Hey guys, look! I found a 12 year old.
>>46540851
Keep telling yourself that while Johnny the kid-diddler gets fat off your work.
>>46540872
Keep telling yourself that while Johnny the kid-diddler diddles you.
>>46540880
>slavery supporter uses an uncreative reply out of his boss' lack of clearance to think about a better one
>>46540894
>child uses an uncreative reply out of his inability to think about a better one
>>46540672
That's Canadians.
>>46525894
Because our souls are all techincally immortal - >>46526100 - since souls never die, since what 'I' truly am is a soul I am, in a very undesirable way, immortal, and since becoming a Lich requires me to >>46526018 split my so-->>46526036-- NO YOU CAN'T DAMNIT IT 'IS' YOU, you can do what ever yo want with 'it' the same way as you can kill yourself by throwing yourself off a bridge, the moment you do that, you cease to 'live,' and so, when you split your soul you cease to truly be 'immortal' and hence get stuck 'living' in this same realm for ever, which is essentially purgatory.
>be Lich =/= be in purgatory.
>>46541041
souls ain't immortal in Golarion setting
>>46538691
#NotAllNecros
>>46540894
>>46540880
>It was really scary mommy, two of the 6th graders were chasing each other in circles around the playground today.
>>46525894
Never liked that my class=my morality. that's fucking stupid and stunts the growth of interesting characters. I'm fine with skill requirements being needed to take a class, but not moral ones (a current system i'm working on doesn't have morality, for you folks who don't want that)
>>46541570
Please tell me a good necromancer character that isnt "Im sad that dying is a thing" or "my religeon were made by necrophiliacs."
Enlighten me, please.
>>46541570
>Still using alignment
>Still allowing it to cripple your character development
My heart weeps that this is still a thing.
>>46542038
Abhorsen.
Who's more "YOU STUPID OTHER NECROMANCER CUNTS, STOP RAISING THE DEAD! IM FUCKING SERIOUS! STOP IT OR I'LL TAKE YOUR SOULS, MARCH INTO THE WORLD OF THE DEAD AND SHOVE IT PAST THE POINT OF NO RETURN. SEE HOW YOU LIKE THAT!"
Although I'd be the first to admit Abhorsen is more a paladin of death.
>>46542038
Off the top of my head?
>DEATH IS NOT FOR US, OUR QUEST SHALL NOT STOP.
>"This gems you see here, they contain the souls of my brothers. I always let souls of the corpses go to their doom, then raise them with the souls of the willing"
>>46542038
They could just be that guy who talks to ghosts for a living, whether speaking with specters to glean forgotten secrets or portents of the future, or helping folks chat with their dead grandmas and get some closure. Plus probably fighting and exorcising hostile undead with the most appropriate arcane tools.
>>46525894
How is this /tg/ related?
>>46543929
Lurk more, the lich is a staple of D&D and has bled over to most fantasy settings.
![[Nods Externally].gif](https://i.imgur.com/zIo5Dyh.gif "[Nods Externally].gif")
>>46538522
>>46540270
> and, being an American, you pull your .357 out of the milk carton and blow his head off
God bless America!
>>46525894
Because of the great lengths that a monk has to go through to become "immortal". A Monk disiplines his body to near perfection everyday to reach the mental enlightenment he deserves. Like a Paladin, the very idea of defeating a challenge worth fighting for only helps him or her grow and perfect that art. For some, the challenge would be foriegn or antagonistic ideals of the adversary, while others must look inwards to deal with the greatest challenge yet, themselves.
Wizards are also a good exemplars of acceptable immortality, because they perfect their craft through rigorous study and mental perfection. Similar to the monk's physical and emotional perfection.
Those who wish to become a lich do not do so through absolute perfection of the body, the mind or the soul. But rather through the use and abuse of olthers, like a stepping stool in which they will rid of latter, to gain their immortality. They harm others, in any type that causes great harm(physical, mental, spiritual, ect.), to get what they want and that is unacceptable.
>>46529022
Fucking good read
>>46544598
>the paladin is still monologuing
>his party members and the arch lich keep glancing at the clock
>the young squire has already fallen asleep at the back
>>46526115
And that, ladies and goyim, is how you make a villain. Enjoy being the BBEG of my next campaign, fellow.
>>46538061
>Behind7kskellies.jpg
>>46544783
>True Neutral archlich
>tries to cut the planes apart
>remake the natural laws of the land
>no extraplanar beings
>mortals have sovereign right over their souls
>villain
>>46525894
Depends on the setting.
>>46538112
Don't forget having sex with your clone wife daughters.
>>46545098
And on occasion summoning a hot Daedric bitch and ruining her for anything and everything.
Because he's Divayth Fyr.
>>46544959
Hero antagonist. The players won't realize what they're trying to stop until it's too late.
>>46545309
>>46525894
Because Gary Gygax once had a threesome with a lich and a monk, and only one of them still had a cock.
>>46545344
Exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. Although, I like the whole necromancy idea from the Death Gate Cycle; necromancy can be good in intent, but has an inevitably deleterious effect in that each time a corpse is raised, someone living must die in exchange as a sort of physical law. It just happens. Thus, once the Life Effect is known, nobody can justify necromancy.
>>46545594
Nobody can justify Necromancy until they can black-list countries from individual rituals*
Like, nobody would give a fuck if you could limit the Life-Effect to some third world shithole, or China.
>>46540270
10/10 post
>>46545344
>Muh industrial revolution skellingtons are the way of the future
I am so beyond tired of this "good necromancer" meme.
