Why is unarmed combat inherently inferior to weaponized combat? I've never seen a system that had them balanced save for ones where your weapon doesn't matter.
Have you peeked at this pesky system called Real Life? It may have the answers you seek.
>>46522895
Go punch a bullet
Because that's literally why we invented weapons
>>46522895
>save for ones where your weapon doesn't matter.
Well that's just it - if unarmed combat is just as good as using a weapon, why use weapons?
>>46522895
Because it takes significanty more work to reach the same effect you would have with a sword, or an axe, or a spear, with fists or feet or any other contact point.
This is coming from a guy who likes unarmed; it's just harder to get to work, and tends to be reflected as such
>>46522895
>Why is unarmed combat inherently inferior to weaponized combat
Get out. No one can possibly be dumb enough to ask that.
>>46525798
OP just saw that image for the first time and really wanted to post it.
He probably doesn't even recognize the homage.
>>46525736
This. Either the creators say fuck it and let you use anything or nothing, or the creators create rules for weapons, at which point unarmed combat either doesn't do any of the cool stuff weapons do, or functions by using imaginary weapons under specific circumstances.
>>46522895
Even if one has magical mystical monk powers, why and how could one possibly have the greater advantage by putting your life force, mana, spirit or whatever into your fists, when the other guy could do the exact same thing into a motherfucking axe?
>You could punch a guy
>OR You could punch a guy using a sharp metal point, causing material other than your bone to absorb some of the shock while concentrating the entirety of your force into a single point, drastically increasing penetration
>You could swing down with the side of your hand
>OR you could swing down with this reinforced blade on a long pole, causing the swing to apply SEVERAL TIMES the force on the point of impact that your hand ever could, while ALSO providing increased reach, resilience and a substitute body area to your own fucking body, so that the guy trying to knock it away isn't nearly as likely for any parrying of your hit to be by removing your goddamn arm.
>You could punch the air at someone, or throw a rock
>But you know what? PIC RELATED, with shells of greater density than anything you could ever make your body out of (and you don't want this shit in there either) AND/OR packed with a chemical reaction designed to annihilate things tougher than your body.
Actually even in a 'world' of dragonball-style martial artists, what would more likely happen is that the weapons they design to concentrate and amplify what they can do would be utter atrocities against space and time themselves. They'd find a way to turn that big fat Kamehameha into a focused beam and blowing up namek would never again take like two hundred episodes. Some stray shot would skim a mountain somewhere and the fraction of energy absorbed would shatter the fucking core.
tldr; weapons are literally a force multiplier, so the stronger you are, the more awesome they will be
>>46526739
>Actually even in a 'world' of dragonball-style martial artists, what would more likely happen is that the weapons they design to concentrate and amplify what they can do would be utter atrocities against space and time themselves.
Unless the magic that strengthens their bodies doesn't work on weapons. Making weapons useless because they won't survive being used in training.
>>46527071
They'd find shit that IS. Intelligent species always do.
The *problem* is that now the asshole of the week is swinging around a sharpened neutron-star, and no one wants to be anywhere near planets that they like when fighting anymore (this should already have been the case though)
>>46522895
Anima fag here. It has what you seek.
Martial arts allow for some crazy things(punching people with your VERY SOUL, the killer strike art from Kill Bill, grappling with the strength of five dragons), with the caveat that you lose all those sweet bonuses if you use a weapon.
And weapons tend to pack more of a punch initially, and can be enchanted to be more damaging, or you can learn abilities based around specific weapons(becoming Walter Dolneaz or Gambit is only a few Development Points away...)
AND both manage to scale well with Magic and Psychic shit, with only a pure Ki build being capable of showing them up(if only slightly).
>>46527071
This is why I like shows like HunterxHunter because the way they explain Nen makes so having a weapon could be useful but isn't nesscesarily overpowered when you consider there are Enhancers who can eat rockets to the face.
Then again, there are upward limits of course when a being such as Meruem could be rekted by a Nuclear bomb that can be surgically implanted in a person's chest.
>>46528035
Anima has what 90% of people in /tg/ want, but it's not D&D so it's bad.
>Being so ripped you're in full plate
okay guys - i realize OP is pants on head retarded, but let me fanwank here and imagine what he might have been trying to say:
what is a good system in which the RULES for unarmed combat are as well developed as the rules for armed combat, making them equally fun to mess around with in their respective arenas?
i'm not sure that it's a better question or that the answer wouldn't still be Anima, but it's something that might be worth working with.
maybe an even better question would be, what's a system that actually has a set of rules for grappling that works well? because i haven't fucking seen one.
was there any good grappling in Ninjas and Superspies? i think have the PDF at home, i should check. probably not, because Palladium, but you never know.
>>46528728
Anima.
>>46528728
GURPS
Especially on the martial arts and grappling side.
>>46522895
unarmed combat is good in tacticool games.
You know, you are infiltrating into an enemy base and you have your weapon draw. Then you see a guard in front of you win the initative by little and suffocate him ,before he can alert the base.
>>46522895
Because of autism.
>>46528595
I think the slightly more mathy bits and the front-heavy rules tend to scare them off more than anything. Though once you get the hang of it, it's surprisingly versatile.
>Being so ripped you're in fullplate and swinging a live ancient dragon as a club.
>>46522895
>why did humans start killing each other and animals with spears rather than punch wolves and people to death? Why would they use missiles like javelins and missiles rather than get close and use fisticuffs when hunting?
That's how the question reads.
>>46530285
Because they did know how to imbue their fist with their ki and punch you at a spiritual level. Because there are more uses for unarmed combat then running through an open field while guys in armor with machine guns are ready for you and trained their guns ready to mow you down.
Maybe, just maybe there are occasions where you don't have your weapon and you are forced to fight hand to hand.
But apparently /tg/ is too autistic to understand this.
>>46530220
>Cutting a wizard's spell in half and strangling him
>Literally removing your enemy from existence
>Powerdiving megamechasatan
>Give a whole town a lobotomy
>Create the third impact with your will and physical prowess alone
>Be a literal immortal walking wall of meat that counter-attacks with huge bonuses thanks to samiel
>Have an spiritual being bound to your soul
So many cool things to do.
>>46530331
>Maybe, just maybe there are occasions where you don't have your weapon and you are forced to fight hand to hand.
Thing is, a person holding a weapon will always have an advantage over someone without, and if both combatants are unarmed the disparity doesn't even matter. Even a trained martial artist has to be super fucking on point with someone swinging a knife or an axe.
>>46530331
>punch at the spiritual level
When I see a real wolf fang fist or kamehama then we can talk about Ki and anime power.
A rock or log is just about always available.
A standard office stapler is objectively a better tool than your hand. Most fist fights devolve into wrestling on the ground anyway, or one guy gets punched, goes down, then the other guy kicks his ass more as necessary to ensure victory.
>>46530414
Well yes, I don't disagree with that, but that doesn't mean hand to hand skills are completely useless or are you advocating that my character simply roll over and die because my opponent has a hatchet and I don't?
>Well he has a knife I guess I better just roll a new character because my years of fighting amount to nothing without a gun or a sword
>>46530504
>>46530331
Forgot link, and here's a tidbit:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion
The Righteous and Harmonious Fists or "Boxers United in Righteousness" (Yihequan/I-ho-chuan) was a secret society which arose in the inland sections of the northern coastal province of Shandong. American missionaries were probably the first to refer to the well-trained, athletic young men as "Boxers", because of the martial arts and calisthenics they practiced. The Boxers' primary practice was spirit possession, which involved "the whirling of swords, violent prostrations, and chanting incantations to Taoist and Buddhist spirits".[7]
The excitement and moral force of these possession rituals was especially attractive to unemployed and powerless village men, many of whom were teenagers.[8] The Boxers believed that through training, diet, martial arts and prayer they could perform extraordinary feats, such as flight. Furthermore, they popularly claimed that millions of spirit soldiers would descend from the heavens and assist them in purifying China of foreign oppression.[9] The Boxers, armed with rifles and swords, claimed supernatural invulnerability towards blows of cannon, rifle shots, and knife attacks. The Boxer beliefs were characteristic of millenarian movements, related to such practices as the Native American Ghost Dance, a practice of a different society under stress.[10]
>>46522895
Feng Shui (the original, at least, haven't messed with FS 2) makes an interesting balance between the two.
Unarmed attacks deal Str+1 (in a system where 5 Str is average and 10 is generally the max) dmg, or Str+2 for a kick. A bigass sword only does Str +4. Guns deal set damage between 10 and 13, typically. That said, damage values only matter against named enemies, whereas only your skill affects your ability to kill unnamed mooks
The biggest advantage unarmed attacks have against weapons is that certain Kung Fu powers only work with them, not with weapons.
>>46530524
It's the nature of it. An accomplished martial artist can likely disarm a weapon wielding thug but is likely dead fucking meat vs. an expert fencer. Like others have said there is a reason why mankind invented weaponry.
"Nowadays you don't go around on the street kicking people, punching people — because if you do (makes gun shape with hand), well that's it — I don't care how good you are." - Bruce Lee.
>>46530615
In a situation where I'm in a room unarmed and several dudes are in there with me with machine guns I would obviously be fucked if I tried to kung-fu them and didn't have any powers to back me up.
I'm aware of this and agree with it. I suppose I should clarify situations where the combatants arn't armed with military grade weapons and usually in places where you can't bring such equipment to bare.
All I'm saying it's not useless but it seems that people only imagine such situations where you're in an open field trying to charge headfirst into a bunch of machine guns
>>46530553
Those never end well.
Usually the claim ends right around the time someone depresses a trigger. ... As does part of the rebellion.
>>46530615
This. Unarmed sure as fuck has its advantages... But skill and training can apply to anything. YES, D20, EVEN CROSSBOWS
The guy who learns to pour his ki into his guns is going to have a field day.
>>46530385
Riiight?
>Jayan "Sniper" Weaponmaster with a Light Ballista
>Creating your own personal plane with blackjack and hookers, and existential rules governing said blackjack and hookers
>Accidentally 60km radius circle of Psychic Murder Spiders
>Intentionally 60km radius circle of Deathclaws
>Slapping Barnabus for trying to kill your God-Waifu Barakiel.
>Causing your players to sweat bullets when your newest creature lobotomizes the Warrior Summoner with it's undead mind.
That last one actually happened, player had to burn two Destiny points to survive.
>>46530758
The main thing you have to remember is that in any setting where you've got "martial artists", especially those with magical or exotic weapon users...
Sure, it's some "ki needler weapon" or whatever, but let's face it. That dude basically has a SAW, it's just not powered by bird dung and sulfur.
>>46530758
I have no idea how you jumped to a bunch of machine guns. The quote basically means any jack-off with a cheap .380 pistol can cap the most accomplished martial artist from range if they aren't a horrible shot. Yes someone can spend a couple hundred bucks to negate decades of experience. I suppose see if you can utilize terrain/cover and throw objects to disrupt aim?
>>46530940
You can try, but you're still at an extreme disadvantage against the guy who only needs to hit you and could ALSO be utilizing cover and terrain.
Anima is the game you want. Disregard the people who say weaponry starts better. Roll good enough stats and Muai Tai starts the game broken.
There's something magical about being able to stare down an armored knight and inform him that if he goes for his sword you'll crush his skull with your knee before it's half way out of the sheath.
There's something even more awesome about the arms race that sometimes emerges as your knight gets nicer swords while you keep picking up new styles. And let's not forget the fact that style is actually a skill. Get it high enough and snow just starts falling and a beggar decides right now is a good time to start strumming his harp right as it's fight time.
>>46522895
Try Anima BF
>>46522895
in mutants and masterminds, there is no distinction between armed and unarmed powered combat
>>46528595
>capoeira in full plate
Also, GURPS can break this trend.
Martial arts can be a lot of fun. Had a character once in a GURPS heroes game who was basically Not-Kamen-Rider and the armor points actually stored damage to charge my strength.
The look in the GM's face when a crook put a .357 magnum to my head, pulled the trigger and my still unpierced armor started glowing red as my STR charged up was pretty priceless.
>>46530940
Typically when I imagine most people discuss these sorts of situations I imagine the infinite white plane where everyone has the maximum best of whatever they can have to test certain scenarios.
classic examples being the mundane fighter vs. the wizard with every spell and all the space and time to use them.
Your right and that what Bruce says applies to a little pistol just as well to a machine gun, hell, the founder of Aikido says something similiar I believe, "What would you do against someone with a sword?" , "Probably die"
However, I'm arguing that, in spite of that, hand to hand is not completely worthless as a skill otherwise soldiers and fighters of all sorts throughout history wouldn't have been taught how to grab, throw, punch,kick, and chock people out
In anycase, if it comes down to it and all I have is my martial skill to save me when I don't have a weapon readily on hand I'm not going to simply roll over and die because the guy has the advantage over me if I can do something about it.
>>46525736
Because just as good doesn't usually mean 'identical'.
Because you think swords (or knives, or partisans, or greatclubs...) are cooler.
Because you think a certain type of character is cool or interesting and that type of character would use weapons.
>>46522895
Grappling is a form of unarmed combat and is strong in many systems.
>>46531221
Specializing in unarmed in a setting with weapons (especially guns) is basically hard-mode. You need something like cybernetics/armor or a mystical "80's Action Film Aura" that makes people inexpliably drop their weapons and engage you in hand to hand one at a time when you try to engage them. Even in settings where melee and guns mix like 40k you see assault units have at least a handgun or be outrageously durable/fast, preferably a combination of all.
